Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

Are you effing kidding me

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: December 28, 2003

Filed at 4:18 p.m. ET

DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) -- Howard Dean said Sunday that the hundreds of thousands of people drawn to politics by his campaign may stay home if he doesn't win the Democratic presidential nomination, dooming the Democratic Party in the fall campaign against President Bush.

I keep hoping this is wrong and its from the past, but it doesnt seem that way.

If it is true and from today sounds like Howie is getting desperate, but what a fucking weasel thing to harp on.

Yeah thats uniting the party.

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  Howard Dean is desperate? Hahaha...

  by AEDem2004 on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:18:20 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    Its a stupid stupid thing to say either way, desperate or not. Maybe its just more code to elicit more funds who knows

    by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:21:50 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Gimme a quote.

      by Jumbo on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:23:10 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        ``If I don't win the nomination, where do you think those million and a half people, half a million on the Internet, where do you think they're going to go?'' he said during a meeting with reporters. ``I don't know where they're going to go. They're certainly not going to vote for a conventional Washington politician.''

        http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Dean.html
        

        by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:25:56 PM PDT

        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

          I don't know where they're going to go. They're certainly not going to vote for a conventional Washington politician

          Where I come from "I don't know where they're going to go" doesn't translate into "Dems are doomed if I lose the nomination." And "They're certainly not going to vote for a conventional Washington politician" translates into, they'll probably support someone like Wes Clark.

          by Jumbo on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:29:46 PM PDT

          •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

            Right on, dude.

            by New Left 2004 on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:41:07 PM PDT

          •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

            Where I come from "I don't know where they're going to go" doesn't translate into "Dems are doomed if I lose the nominationh

            Yeah you may be right there Jumbo, and maybe I'm overeacting a bit, but his message is pretty clear, that for lots of his supporters its hims or nobody, and I personally dont like that message at all.
            Its unecessary and divisive, and personally I expect more from Dean, being in the lead and all,
            I really expect him to be more of a uniter at this point.

            by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:15:48 PM PDT

            •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

              I agree. But I blame the AP more than I blame Dean. I don't lend much creedence to quotes to reporters. It's the quotes to voters that matter to me. Kerry and Gephardt have been dogging Dean by name from the stump. They've set up websites and put out wack commercials. Dean's just observing that he's really leading a movement and the other guys are just running (poorly) for president. I don't take much visciousness or underhandedness on Dean's part out of that. Once he wins the thing I'm sure he'll be the niciest nice guy you've ever seen.

              by Jumbo on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:23:12 PM PDT

            •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

              I really expect him to be more of a uniter at this point.

              This smacks of political naivete and/or artificial positioning on your part.

              This is the primary battle.  "Uniting" by a "Uniter" comes afterward, by the presumptive nominee in conjunction with the DNC and other organisations.

              by Marisacat on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:46:39 PM PDT

              •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

                "Sorry, uniting comes afterward"?  Ah sure, I guess this explains why Kos has a policy of not pointing to criticisms of Dean or Clark, right?  ;)

                by jg on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:24:11 PM PDT

            •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

              I think many people miss the movement aspect of the Dean campaign. Many people of varying age have latched on to this movement as their virgin experience in politics...so yeah, many of them will be turned off by the system if Howard Dean is not the nominee; however I think they'll vote Demo....They (okay we, I'm one too) will have to be wooed by the nominee if Dean is on the sidelines. And if he's not the nominee, I'll eat my hat.

              by MichaelPH on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:20:38 PM PDT

            •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

              You're overreacting a lot.

              Still, this has finally allowed me to figure it out what so many people don't get about Dean: he talks about things he can't control without disclaimers that he can't control them.

              On several occasions, Dean's said something along the lines of "If Thing X happens, I think Bad Consequence Y might happen." And altogether too many people somehow manage to hear this as "If Thing X happens, I will actively try and bring about Bad Consequence Y."

              I guess it must be a doctor thing. "Your diet is mostly fatty foods. If you keep that up, you risk obesity," is a noncontroversial diagnosis. Similarly, "Many of my supporters are people who were brought back into the process because of what I had to say. If the eventual nominee is someone who rejects what I had to say, they may not stay in the process," also should be a noncontroversial diagnosis. And (follow the pretty little logic chain) since we know that Dean believes the only way to win this election is to bring in people who didn't vote last time, "If the people who aren't in the process stay out of the process, we can't win this election," is also a noncontroversial diagnosis. The difference between my version and Dean's is that my version is the one calibrated for the infamous eleven-year-old's attention span, while Dean's is the one aimed at a thinking adult.

              On an entirely unrelated note (and this is not specifically directed at you, mickey, but I want to limit my participation in this particular iteration of Dean Flamewar #217 to one comment):

              ANYBODY WHO HAS EVER CALLED DEAN "UNELECTABLE", OR ENDORSED ANOTHER CANDIDATE'S CHARGES THAT DEAN IS "UNELECTABLE", HAS NO STANDING WHATSOEVER TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS QUOTE.

              ...unless, that is, you don't mind looking like a rank hypocrite.

              by schwa on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:41:30 PM PDT

          •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

            Um...hasn't Clark essentially said the Dems are doomed if he doesn't get the nomination as well?

            And haven't all the other guys say the Dems are doomed if Dean DOES get the nomination?

            It's primary talk. Dean has already said he'll support whoever wins, and I still believe he will.

            by markdonelson on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 02:21:00 AM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      "who knows"

      I assume you mean the average citizen, because they're funding his campaign, not some rich trial lawyers or a housing mortgage.  Attacking his fundraising base is foolish because the attack holds no water when the average donation is 80 bucks.

      by AEDem2004 on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:24:36 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  Why is this such a problem? People have been arguing all along about the different constituencies that the different candidates could bring out to the polls. It's just the electability argument again, all over again.

  by gong on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:21:57 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    it as stupid as kerry saying we're doomed if dean gets the nomination.  

    by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:23:23 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      What about Clark or his supporters talking about unhappy Republicans who'd vote for Clark but not Dean?

      by gong on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:27:30 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    Yes - it's the electablity argument all over again, only this time, Dean is making it about the other candidates. If those kinds of remarks make us angry when they are directed at Dean, isn't it reasonable for people to be angry when those remarks are made about other candidates?

    by DavidNYC on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 01:21:44 AM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      If they made you angry, sure, though mostly they just bored me. I wouldn't deny it's something worth thinking about.

      by gong on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 04:36:04 AM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  Well, every other candidate is saying that he is not electable, so I see nohing wrong with him fighting back.  Do you?

  He also has a point.  Many of the Dean supporters will stay home in Novemeber if Dean does not win.  Part of the support for him is a referendum on the Democratic establishment.  They see the other candidates as either being a part of the eslablishment, or backed in secret by the extablishment.

  This is just a plain old fact.  I would urge them not to, but I think that mant of them have made up their mind.

  I will say that I will at least hold my nose while voting for some of the other candidates.  That is the least that I can do as a Democrat.

  by charlesdog12 on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:25:32 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    I don't think many Dean supporters will stay home in November.  But I think few of them would work as hard for another candidate as they are for Dean.

    Not that it will be an issue.

    by katiebird on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:32:48 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      I will not work for another candidate, especially because if he loses it will be the DLC etc... who bring him down in all likelyhood. We have not really lived in A democracy for awhile now guys, they just don't even really bother to hide it anymore. Dean is taking away the power of the special interests, by convincing people they have a chance. Imagine that, a President who doesn't owe his job to the oil companies, or whomever. If the leaders of the party bring him down it proves that they have no more interest than the Repugs in Democracy. Don't know what I would do, maybe move to Canada.

      by PLS on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:41:47 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        Many Dems, I believe, see Dean as the last hope for resurrecting the Party in the spirit they envision.  Dean's candidacy means more than just a Dem to run against Bush, which is what the other candidates really seem like.  Much is riding on Dean for a lot of long-suffering Democrats who feel disenfranchised, marginalized, and impotent.  If a Dean loss looks like an eighty-six by Party establishment, it will be crushing for many of his supporters.  Simply plugging in another Democrat and expecting these deeply committed Dean supporters to invest is naive; it just won't happen.  For others, though, who are more tepid in their support, plugging in another Dem won't be that big a deal.  Dean is speaking about the former, however, and not the latter.  If people are having trouble fathoming that--irrespective of our shared deep-seated contempt for George Bush--then people simply don't understand the Dean candidacy.

        by lightiris on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 11:20:32 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    I don't know.  Looking back to '92, its clear that the Democratic party would be in better shape today if Clinton hadn't made it into the White House.  Nobody says it but its true.  Over 50 House seats lost that first mid-term election; control of the Senate lost; Governorships and state legislatures lost.  

    Bush the Elder had a healthcare plan.  As a lame duck president looking for a place in history, it would have been a cinch to push him farther along towards a national healthcare system.  Instead, I watched the arrogance of President Clinton appointing his wife to come up with a plan and she completely blew it like it wasn't important.  

    Clinton's presidency facilitated the rise of Republicans like DeLay; there was a non-ideological personal animus towards Clinton among so many Americans and it empowered Republicans like DeLay the most.

    So I look back at those years and I'm not so sure I would vote for any Democrat nominated if Dean didn't make it.  Kerry and Gephardt - what to make of them?  They voted against the first Gulf War resolution back in '90-'91.  How to explain the way they were so supportive of this war?  I have the same feeling about them as I had with Clinton:  I'm not sure I know what their priorities and values are.  Clark is a total mystery.  What to make of him?  He voted for Reagan and Bush I and he's had a career of carrying out orders.  What does he really believe?

    by Lois on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:29:25 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      For gods sake I'm so sick of the whining and crying about the Clintons.

      Get over it Lois it was ten years ago

       and you're threatening to not vote just tells me you're a typical dont want to take responsibilty for anything person.
      

      by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:42:19 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        Clinton also contributed to the demonizing of welfare and was a generally weak voice for abortion rights, education spending and  affirmative action.  His humanitarian wars and "peacekeeping" occupations
        were forerunners of this Iraq mess.  

        Strategically, IMO, we'd be in a better place without the Clinton presidency and thats what its all about.  I'm not getting paid anything by the Democratic Party.

        by Lois on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:56:05 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        While I certainly don't agree with Lois view of not voting for a Dem if Dean isn't the nominee, she has a point when it comes to Clinton's Presidency.  We are still suffering the ramificatins of Clinton's triangulation and Dick Morris infused political hard-ball against fellow Democrats.  

        by jg on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:27:26 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        "For gods sake I'm so sick of the whining and crying about the Clintons."

          I agree, and I would add, for gods sake I'm so sick of the whining and crying about Dean.  IMHO this diary entry is just another attempt to smear Dean under the guise of some greater issue, in this case, party unity.

        by Stevo on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:33:13 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    Many of the Dean supporters will stay home in Novemeber if Dean does not win.

    -fair point, and many supporters of other Dem candidates may stay home if Dean does get the nom.
    

    by jdavidson on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:03:15 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      I don't agree.  I think most Dean supporters are ABB and would vote.  The 75-25 split quoted uptopic, sounds good.

      But I also think most Dean supporters would probably not be manning tables.  Wouldn't be going door to door.  Wouldn't be sending in their $10 and $20.  This is not because they'd be being peevish.  It's because it would all depend on whether or not other candidates could inspire them in the way that Dean had.

      Although anyone could try.  And someone might succeed.

      This race is all about respect.  It's about changing the relationship between campaigners and their constituents.  

      Bush will not be defeated unless the candidate who's going up against him can marshal 100 times the effort and dedication that Howard Dean is marshalling among his supporters now.  This is nothing, what's going on now.  This is a walk in the park compared to facing the GOP.  Sheer numbers alone cannot change the country's course.  Neither can money.   The equation is very simple -- the frontrunner, whoever it is, has to make his supporters give 2000 percent.

      A candidate who cannot inspire Dean's supporters to give 2000 percent in the general election, will not win.  Because even Dean has to inspire his supporters to give 2000 percent.  No one gets a free ride.

      by NYCO on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:12:31 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Sore losers of any stripe should not inflict Bush on the rest of us.

      by chase on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:44:37 PM PDT

•  stating the obvious?

  Mickey, is Dean just stating the obvious?

  If Jane Q Voter and John Q Student got involved in politics b/c they liked Ho Ho, why would you assume their support would translate to another candidate?

  by Carl Nyberg on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:26:31 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  You know what - I am pissed at Howard Dean, and I am a Dean supporter. I will NOT go home if he is not the nominee. I will work just as hard for whoever the nominee is because there is NOTHING in this world more important that defeating Bush right now. I've been exhorting people to be ABB just as I am. Dean isn't doing anything to help this.

  by DavidNYC on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:29:51 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  Why is it so hard for so many Dems to accept that HoHo can say and do no wrong?

  I'm half serious, here. Works for the Repugs. My response to this, as with so many other contentious Dean statements of late, is to shrug and move on, because he's our likely nominee and therefore infallible through November.

  Furthermore, he's probably right -- at the very least, most in this enormous, energetic movement he's whipped up would not approach the election with much fervor were he not the nominee. At best, they'd refrain from licking stamps, stapling yard signs, knocking on doors and working call centers, and merely show up to vote with a heavy sigh and a sense of resignation.

  by Septic Tank on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:32:55 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    Dean is probably right. I remember reading somewhere that when party leadership has succeded in pissing on the grass roots before, that the party went on to lose in the general. It breaks people's hearts, not a good way to win an election.  

    by PLS on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:53:57 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  Dean said the very same thing back over the summer:  That he would endorse the Democratic nominee, but that he wasn't sure if his own supporters were as easily transferrable.  So this is not a new thought  from him.

  I would like him to be wrong, but he is being honest, and his honesty is based on the reality that his supporters have never been told what to do by him.  That's not how it works in the Dean campaign.  The supporters have been given wide latitude and free reign - to organize their own groups and activities.  Although they are given suggestions and guidelines, no one in Burlington tells them what to do.   This is why Dean's campaign is different.

  Dean is only telling it like it is.

  Now as for me, I plan to vote Democratic no matter what.  And I don't want to see the party split in any way.  I currently don't want to see Dean as an independent and I don't think he wants to be one.  I want to be able to vote Democrat against Bush, even if while doing it, I have to bite my knuckle until the blood streams down.  But I can speak only for myself.   What a free people would do en masse, I don't know.

  by NYCO on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:38:20 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    NYCO,  to me  a real leader has ideals and visions and works to unite people to bring about those goals.

    He can damn well persuade lots of his followers to remain part of the process even if he is not the eventual nominee.

    Yeah he might lose some, but he could hold it together for the better of the party and the country if he so desires.

    A real leader could and would do just that.
    

    by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:38:20 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      He can damn well persuade lots of his followers to remain part of the process even if he is not the eventual nominee.

      And he has said as much.  Repeatedly.

      Would you like him to tattoo it to his forehead?

      by hyperbolic pants explosion on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:08:14 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  I've already made a pledge.

  If Dean doesn't get the nomination, chances of me voting in 2004 are going to be pretty slim. It'll take something like a nuclear war threat, for me to bother voting for anyone else. One of the many reasons why I support Dean is because of people-driven campaign contributions, devoid of special interest influence.

  Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman, Clark and Edwards are usual vanity politicos, and wout end up making empty promises and rewarding their big donors. We already have a President who does those following things quite nicely.

  The ferocity of the attacks on Dean has made me lose faith in the Democratic party altogether. Here you have a candidate who burst onto the scene, inspired hundreds of thousands of people, built the biggest grassroots campaign through hard work, and spread a message of hope. Immediately, everyone piled on top of him with idiocy such as "unelectable", "no foreign policy experience", vicious attacks using the picture of OBL, et al.

  I want no part of it. It's Dean or bust.

  There is much more at stake than Presidency. I want the Democratic Party which sets an agenda and gets back to it's core ideology, instead of emulating Repugs.

  Funny thing is, every other candidate had their chance to call Dean unelectable, but when Dean says it, somehow it becomes an unforgivable sin.

  Anyone But Bush, for all practical reasons, is dead.

  by cioxx on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:40:36 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    I don't agree with you on this.....I think ABB is very important - Bush is the worst President we've ever had, and I think the stakes are enormous.

    Even Lieberman would be 1000x better than Bush.

    But I must compliment you on your tag - I've called myself a militant agnostic for years because it's a great oxymoron - but I never finished the thought like that.

    Outstanding!

    by dabize on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:57:04 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    Anyone But Bush, for all practical reasons, is dead.

    Don't worry. It'll get resurrected if need be.

    by Jumbo on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:04:25 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Sure, but I don't see myself casting a vote for someone who supported the war, Bush tax cut, and later tried to justify his actions when time came to face the voters.

      by cioxx on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 07:16:20 AM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    Did you vote in 2000?  If so, for whom?

    by PrometheusSpeaks on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:42:38 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      I didn't vote in 2000, because there were no candidates worth supporting during general nomination.

      My candidate was John McCain, even though I'm a Democrat.

      After Bush stole McCain's momentum by smearing him with barrage of low-blow ads, that's when I said "fuck it", and became an observer in the process. Gore alienated himself by distancing his platform from Clinton's, and choosing a scumbag like Lieberman contributed to my apathy.

      Remember how "pundits" kept saying that Gore needed to forget Clinton and run as his own man? Turned out that was the biggest mistake that cost him the election. Same thing is happening with Dean. If he were to listen what these pseudo-intellectuals are saying, he'd most certainly suffer the same fate as Gore in 2000.

      by cioxx on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 07:11:43 AM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        why you traitor!!!

        you were supposed to vote for bush.

        ahem.

        :)

        by pyrrho on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 05:01:09 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    Anyone But Bush, for all practical reasons, is dead

    No, it seems that for you ABB is dead for emotional reasons. Idealistic reasons. Maybe even principled philosophical reasons.  

    But for practical reasons, 'Anybody But Bush' stands tall, and I stand with it... not despite my strong support of Dean, but for one of the reasons I'm most drawn to him: pragmatism over ideology.

    Because by any practical metric, Bush is the most disastrous president we've ever had. Because of this I'd have to support whoever can plausibly defeat him. I won't stay home from the polls and I won't make a protest vote for a 3rd party candidate who is trying to make some kind of 'statement'.

    The stakes are too high. We know the devil we've got, and he's completely incompatible with a liberal democratic society, and is a menace to the world.

    That's only practical.

    by Malacandra on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:55:31 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      The stakes are too high.

      
      Exactly. The stakes are incredibly high, and it has nothing to do with who's the President. Do you want to vote for an establishment Democrat and suspend the slow and painful death of the party for another decade? Or do you want someone who goes in and changes it from top down?

      I don't see any party reformers out there, with the exception of Dean. If someone were to guarantee that Democratic party would mobilize and rise again to act as a check on GOP in 2008, I'd gladly vote for Bush in return.

      This is no longer about Howard - the man. It's about administering an enema to DNC, among other things. What good does it do, if we have Clark or Gephardt in office, and end up stuck with a party which is rotten to the core?

      by cioxx on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 07:26:27 AM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        I understand where you're coming from, but my perspective is very, very different. My opinion is that a bona-fide Bush victory would be far more destructive to our country than a few years of any of the business-as-usual Democrat. And no-one is going to give you that guarantee that the Dems would mobilize in 2008 after a Bush win. If past behavior is any indicator of future performance, I'd wager that the party would be even more weakened and demoralized, and lurching further to the right to curry favor with our corporate overlords. So, reforming the party could be a moot point if Bush and Co. have another 4 years to wreak their havoc on the world stage and demolish our civil rights and dismantle the middle class at home.

        by Malacandra on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 01:11:59 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    The ferocity of the attacks on Dean has made me lose faith in the Democratic party altogether.

    And of course its not like Dean ever criticises anyone else. Candidates in political elections criticise eachother. Its what they do, its how we can find out the strengths and weaknesses of political canidates. Whether Howard Dean can get elected is a legitimate question.

    You're just angry because those people criticised him with things you disagreed with so now you're going to take it out on the american public.

    by samiam on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:26:33 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Bush the Elder called Reagan's ecomonic promises "voodoo economics" and it stuck, but he still got chosen to be VP. ...

      by pyrrho on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 05:15:42 AM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Whether Howard Dean can get elected is a legitimate question.

      
      What saddens me the most, is how Democrats have taken the GOP memo bait which was put out to claim "X was unelectable" and turned it against their own candidates. It's baseless and assumes [s]people[/s] voters give a flying f**c about someone's foreign policy experience. Did Bush had one? How about Truman? JFK? Clinton? I can go on.

      If people don't stop with this nonsense, it might eventually become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      by cioxx on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 07:38:49 AM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  It all comes down to whether people really want Bush out of office or not. If they support Dean, Clark, or someone else and decide to stay home because their candidate is not the nominee then they are not really serious about defeating Bush. The only way to defeat Bush will be if the hundreds of thousands who support Dean and Clark are joined by hundreds of thousands of more who become active and work in a unified campaign. The Bush campaign will have millions of volunteers, the Democratic party has to match that to win. Momentum and money will not do it, it will take a lot of personal sacrifice and effort.

  by Rob on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:40:53 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

     Dean is right. It's a simple statement of fact. His campaign has tapped an enormous amount of energy, which is not necessarily going to be transferrable. Dean's supporters aren't wind-up toys that can be guaranteed to keep going until November no matter who is nominated.
     When I contributed $100 to Dean in July, that exceeded the total I've given in 30+ years as a voter. I gave $75 to the DNC in 1992 and was so turned off by the resulting flood of letters that after that I just tossed anything from the DNC in the wastebasket. Now I've contributed enough to Dean's campaign that if I'm frugal for the next few months, I may be able to max out my contribution! Of course, it will help if I get a bigger than usual tax refund from Bush's tax cuts--I'd love to send that to Governor Dean.
     I'll vote for the Democratic candidate (unless the nomination is stolen from Dean by some really horrible brokered convention, but I'm not expecting that). But none of the other candidates impress me remotely as much as Dean.

  by gxschier on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:41:04 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  I like Dean, even when he gets cocky.

  AND he's right-this race really is not an anybody but Bush campaign anymore.

  It seems to me that Bill Clinton sold out to the K Street crowd on his way out of office, and because Bill Clinton help himself to favors and funding in last few months in office it has cost the Washington Democrats EVERYTHING, unfortunately.  

  by Cheryl on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:45:35 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    right cheryl, lets blame everything on the clintons.

    Must have been Bill who put those words in his mouth... yup yup ...thats it thats what happened.

    Its time for Dean to start acting like a leader if he wants to be president  and start uniting people......
    

    by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:30:54 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Uniting people like you, who complain when he tries to.  Good God, he's damned either way in your eyes.

      by AEDem2004 on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:34:20 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Mickey, I think you've made some good points, and I like that your constant criticism of Dean on Kos is at least based on actual issues (though I think you've been nitpicking lately).

      But I've noticed you coming back to this issue of Dean having to "show he's a leader." What does that mean? How have Clark, Gephardt, Edwards, etc., shown they're better "leaders" than Dean? (I don't really think Clark's history of military leadership, say, is any more relevant than Dean's history of leadership of the state of Vermont, at least not in general terms--no pun intended. And I like both Dean and Clark, for the record.)

      Obviously this leadership thing is a big issue for you, since you keep mentioning it. But without definitions, it starts sounding like a meaningless catchphrase, much like the ones I'm expecting to hear from the Republicans: if we just say Dean isn't a leader often enough, it becomes true, even though no one knows what that means, precisely.

      Also, since you bring it up, I think you may have asked and answered this, but I'm not sure: If Dean is the nominee, will you vote for him over Bush?

      by markdonelson on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 02:33:05 AM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  What Dr. Dean says in the AP article about our votes not being transferable is absolutely correct. He has motivated a lot of people to get active in this campaign who, if it were not for him, would likely had not become involved at all. These are people who likely would have stayed home on election day, but now they will be voting for Howard Dean.

  The point is kind of moot anyway, since Dr. Dean will be the nominee and he will be our next president. But he is right when he says that a lot of his supporters will probably not vote if he is not the nominee. He's not being pessimistic when he says this, he's being realistic.
  

  by Len on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:45:42 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    But he is right when he says that a lot of his supporters will probably not vote if he is not the nominee.

    Are these the same people who constantly whine about how fucked up things are?    

    I say it to anyone who says they wont vote if their nominee isnt chosen.

    f**k that

    We're talking about wars and deaths, about the environment, about civil liberties, about supreme court justices.

    So screw their so called ideological purity bullshit and get real.

    by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:23:48 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        A trifle pissy, aren't we? They get to vote for whom they choose. Whether it's Dean or Kerry or Clark or even, god forbid, Ralph Nader.

        You might not agree with them, but calling them names and acting like an asshat isn't really the way to court their vote.

        Get this through your head: As bad as Bush is, none of the Democratic field, Howard included, is "entitled" to my vote...or the vote of any other person.

        You have to earn it.

        To some people, Bush has earned a vote against him....thus the ABB crowd. To some people, most of the field has earned their vote...and to some, only a single candidate has done so.

         Kerry isn't entitled to Dean's supporters, should Kerry win. Dean isn't entitled to Clark's supporters, should Dean win.

        No matter who the nominee is, he's going to have to work hard. Complaining because Dean is honest about it, and the rest of the field isn't, is a little odd.

      by Morat on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:31:41 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        That's right.  Dean is not entitled to anyone's supporters.  I agree.  Should he win IA and NH, one of the tasks ahead is to win the respect of Clark's supporters, in particular.  And Dean supporters should start now, in my opinion.

        And that is the crux of the problem with Kerry, Gephardt and Lieberman specifically.  Do you think it's ever once crossed their minds to try to inspire Dean's supporters? Or even respect them?  No, they think of us as leftwing rabble with torches and pitchforks, rabble that have somehow been swayed by Dean's alleged "anger" and "demagoguery," and who could be swayed back just as easily into their camp with a little more angry rhetoric.

        They think we are mindless pawns who will go along with whatever someone in "power" says.  They think that is how Dean has managed to somehow corral us -- with demagoguery.  They think that if they can just slap him down, we'll meekly submit to them.  Because they think we have no brains and no hearts.  Why else do you think they thought they could get away with their Iraq votes, and knuckling under to Bush on Medicare, and every other bit of bending over they've done for the Republicans?  They live in a fantasy world where the Democratic rank and file can just be told what to do from on high.  Like they themselves are told what to do by the Republicans.

        They can always have a change of heart, you know.  They can always try to learn to be respectful of their constituency, learn to inspire, learn to lead.  I will give them that much of an "out" from the corner they have painted themselves into.  But the onus is on them, not us.

        by NYCO on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:47:29 PM PDT

        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

          You are right about that:  its a measure of contempt for the voters.

          I've heard Gephardt say so many times that he is committed to healthcare for all Americans because his son had cancer as a baby, like 30 years ago, and he wants to make sure all Americans have good healthcare like his son had.  Well, that sounds nice but we'd have to be ninnies to believe it.  After the election of '92, there was an absolute mandate for national healthcare, a Democrat in the White House, Democratic control of the House and Senate and Dick Gephardt was majority leader.  Why couldn't he get it done?  (and why doesn't it come up in the debates?)

          by Lois on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:03:53 PM PDT

        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

          Oh, and PS:

          Guess what, Clark supporters -- they think that about you too.

          by NYCO on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:03:57 PM PDT

          •  Phenomenal

            NYCO, you need your own blog.

            by Wanderer on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:49:16 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      I agree with everything in this comment, but I see no difference in what he said and what everyone else is saying. But there is one difference. Dean has said many times that any of the field would be better than Bush. However the reverse is not true. It's bad enough when they tag him with "unelectable," (that's politics) but saying he will not be able to perform forein affairs as well as Bush is reprehencable. It's hard enough for dems to asuage the fear about security without your own people parroting it.

      by Mike S on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:32:38 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        Clark, to his credit, only says he would be better than Dean in this area.

        by Mike S on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:33:47 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Mickey, I think you may have misread or misinterpreted what I typed... or at least what I thought I was typing.

      There are a lot of people who have become involved in politics this year because of Howard Dean.  He has given them something to believe in, and a real choice between Democrats and Republicans.

      These are the people who will likely stay home on 11/02/04 if Dean is not the nominee.  They are the people who would have stayed home anyway had Dr. Dean never entered the race.

      Like it or not, the other candidates are doing their share in driving these people away.  Every time they say that Dean is "unelectable" or whatever, they are not only attacking Dean, they are attacking these people and the very reason they became involved in the first place.  They are, in effect, telling these people "we don't want your support so just go away."  And that is what a lot of them will do.

      by Len on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:55:34 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Ignore my question above, Mickey--you've answered it here.

      And I'm with you. Sure, all candidates have to earn our votes--but given who the Democrat will be running against, the bar to earn a vote against Bush is pretty low. For once, I'll enjoy a vote against a candidate in 2004. The lesser of two evils is just so much lesser...

      I'd pull the lever for a week-old danish over Bush, if the Democrats nominated the danish.

      by markdonelson on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 02:42:55 AM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    I will vote ABB in November, but I have a lot more than that to give.

    If Dean loses the nomination in with a well-fought campaign,  I'll support whomever the nominee is, with all of my energy.

    If the establishment Dems try to subvert the process, then my vote is all they will get.  And I wouldn't be surprised if there are folks out there who would have a hard time giving even the vote.

    Gephardt, Lieberman and Kerry have turned me off with their negativity and by practically giving grenades to Karl Rove if Dean does turn out to be the nominee, and I would have a hard time walking my precinct for any of them.

    by Kascade Kat on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:25:32 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  Just wanted to add:  If there was no Dean to vote for?  I'd go Clark or Edwards.  Gephardt, Kerry and Lieberman would be a lot harder.

  by NYCO on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:46:08 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    In that order?

    by Jumbo on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:46:56 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Not sure what order.  I would have to assess them both as it went along.

      DavidNYC, I would like to say that I would work just as hard for any other candidate.  But the truth is, I just don't know if I would.  I don't even know what it is that has made me work as hard as I have for Dean.  My support for Dean is being pulled out of me from someplace I didn't know was there.  I can't just choose to reach in there and give all that energy to "someone else." They'll have to find it and tap it the way Dean has.

      I'm willing, I'm willing.   But you can't fake inspiration, the kind that makes you go the extra 110%, which is the kind that is required to defeat Bush.

      by NYCO on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:51:04 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        I completely understand where you're coming from, NYCO.

        Dean has a way of inspiring me in a very visceral way, and my wife and I are both putting a tremendous amount of effort into his campaign.

        Having said that, I remember that I had dedicated myself to fight like an avenging angel against Bush before Dean had registered on my radar.  I don't know that I would have worked as hard as I have for another candidate... but I would have worked for them.

        And if Dean falls, it's hard to say whether I'll be so disheartened that I'll vote, but do not much else...

        ...but if Dean is a carrot, Bush is a pretty credible stick. If I'm not motivated by being for Dean, I may find myself sufficiently motivated by being so strongly against Bush that I may still walk precincts.

        While I feel that Dean isn't just another candidate, I also think that this can't be considered Just Another Election.

        by Malacandra on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:08:18 PM PDT

        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

          
          I just spent about half an hour trying to figure out how to say the same thing...  thanks.

          by mr northstar on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:11:48 PM PDT

        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

          if Dean is a carrot, Bush is a pretty credible stick

          You've nailed it.  This explains the entire Dean phenomenon.  The right guy, running the right way, against the right enemy.  Potent.

          by Katydid on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 05:08:29 AM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  The reporter -- or the AP editor who pulled this together -- is putting words in Dean's mouth. In a world of sloppy sensationalistic journalism, this stands head and shoulders above the crowd.

  And you fell for it and are throwing fuel on the fire. This is made up shit. Read the actual quote (upthread) and you see the headline and the paragraph you quote are pure fantasy.

  Spin spin spin the globe; it's your turn to spin the globe.

  by Outlandish Josh on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:48:50 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    dude the implication is pretty clear.

    Dean should be a leader, he is way out front, he should be working to unite the party, and he's just playing the same games.

    Anyone who says they wont vote if their nominee isnt chosen is a moron IMHO, and I tell this to whoever says it no matter their choice.

    by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:27:56 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        Just out of curiosity: How can Dean be both "way out front" and "desperate"?

        You've described him as both. Which is true? Is he desperate, and threatening to take his supporters with him? Or is he the clear frontrunner, and not being magnanimous enough about it for you?

        Pick a horse, Mickey.

      by Morat on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:33:43 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Dude: When someone comes along, throws back the curtains on you, and exposes your article for what it is - and you for what you are doing - it is really bad form to impugn their reading comprehension.

      You Are The Wizard Of Oz On Crack And I Claim My 5$.

      by mccbill on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 12:42:51 AM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Anyone who says they wont vote if their nominee isnt chosen is a moron IMHO...

      Yes, except this has nothing to do with what Dean said.

      dude the implication is pretty clear.

      What implication? That "I've tapped into something which has to do with widespread dissatisfaction for the Democratic Paty's usual Modus Opeandi?" That's all he's saying, man, and you'd have to be willfully averting your eyes if you didn't see that this was the truth.

      by Outlandish Josh on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 04:52:31 AM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    Thats true.  In the article, its clear that Dean is responding to being asked about other candidates who say he can't win and he's saying MAYBE they can't win.  Clearly more sinned against than sinning.  

    by Lois on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:39:50 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  That eggnog must have had a few shots in it...

  by Jsea on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:58:43 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  Besides, even if the intent was what Mickey spins, it would be a legit shot back across the bow at the other campaign that publically have been musing about colluding at the caucus. A sleazy maneuver like that would drive some of the Den crowd away, should they succeed in manipulating the process, in the same manner a superdelegate coup would have.

  Either drop out, and send your supporters to another candidate, or don't. But sleazy collusion is a crock. And it would result in what he says, regardless of what he asked his supporters to do. Simple statement of fact.

  by ElitistJohn on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 07:59:05 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  I can't believe the crap some people are saying here.

  Flame me if you will, Mick did not spin this. Dean said it. The same thing he said before.

  What it tells me is that this guy, --Dean-- is such a freaking jerk hypocrit. He could care less about what is best for this country --- 4 more years of Bush means he will probably get to pick the next few Supreme Court justices, and has anyone thought about that?? The LONG term damge to this country will be felt by all. So sit home if you want, but do so at the detriment of yourselves. That goes for anyone who supports any candidate, and threatens this crap.

  Dean is an egocentrict idiot, and there is no doubt in my mind he could care less what happens in this country in the future. I could overlook him saying this before, but twice? No way. He means it, he said it, it was deliberate.

  And contrary to those of you posting here that believe Dean has the nomination sewn up, it ain't over by a long shot. So sit on your asses voting day, those of you who said you would. All it does is put you in the same class as Dean --the class of ignorant fools.    

  by nancie on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:09:10 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    I don't hand out a lot of troll ratings, but you're begging for it.  How petty.

    by New Left 2004 on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:18:38 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    Flame me if you will, Mick did not spin this. Dean said it.

    Mick didn't spin it; he just repeated the APs spin.

    ``If I don't win the nomination, where do you think those million and a half people, half a million on the Internet, where do you think they're going to go?'' he said during a meeting with reporters. ``I don't know where they're going to go. They're certainly not going to vote for a conventional Washington politician.''

    Dean said that his support base is unlikely to translate to a conventional candidate. He doesn't say these people will stay home. He doesn't say this will insure a Bush victory. He doesn't mention the party or any other candidate or the month of November or voting, yet the headline is Dean: Dems Coomed if He Looses Nomination.

    That's some pretty ooogly spin; reporters like to be sensational.

    As for the rest of yr rant; take a couple deep breaths and maybe drink a glass of water. Hysteronics help no one. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Stick to yr guns and keep your eyes on the prize, integrity and whisky in hand.

    by Outlandish Josh on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:21:43 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    
    Meet the nancie of Legacy Kos. Summer into Fall of 03.

    Cleaned up she did, her language, presentation  and deportment for the new Scoop system, but there you go.  Comportment can be elusive, long term
    

    by Marisacat on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:31:26 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Comportment can be elusive, long term

      which is more then I can say for your babbling incoherency half the time.

      and her language was never an issue i am sure you can check it.

      by mickey on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:46:32 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        Well, mickey, you've been spoiling for a fight for a long time.
        Perhaps someone will give it to you.

        All they have to do is use is long words vs. a short shiv in an alley.

        Was that clear.

        Now kid.  I am done with you and the rest of the swarms.
        Enjoy January and February and March.

        Mostly, we shall see if your boy campaigns in the GE for the presumptive nominee.  Some of us wonder.

        by Marisacat on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:54:13 PM PDT

        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

          I am done with you and the rest of the swarms.

          Is that a promise?      :)
          

          by nancie on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:04:43 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        C'mon, Mickey. You're better than the ad hominems. At least you can be.

        by markdonelson on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 02:49:27 AM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Marisacat, I am the same as always. Sometimes I get pissed about things. Dean's repeated statement is one of them.

      Are you saying you are not ABB?

      By the way, the posts I put out there before Scoop are the same as now. I am not in this for some kind of popularity contest. That should be obvious. I didn't use foul language or slam people or whatever you are trying to say. I don't pretend to be someone I am not.

      If you don't like honesty in a post, so be it.

      But I have a problem with people who say they won't vote for another Dem if Dean doesn't get the nom. And Dean is prepping his supporters to do this. Thankfully, I think most of them realize the detriment to our society should Bush get another term.

      The long term consequences to another 4 years of Bush should put all this into perspective. Anyone who doesn't see that is just plain foolish. If they were standing in front of me I would say it to their faces. Outright ignorance is something I have a hard time shutting up about, no matter where I am.

      Don't like my bluntness? I surely don't care, otherwise I would temper my thoughts with a bit of care.

      So, Marisacat, say what you will about me, but for all your convolution, I will keep my directness about what I think. It is something I have no desire to change.

      Like I said, I am not here to participate in a popularity contest.

      by nancie on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:02:41 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        You're obviously not here to participate in a reading comprehension contest either.

        Where, in the AP article, does it say that Howard Dean won't vote for the Democratic nominee if it isn't him?  How many votes do you think the man personally has?

        Here's a free clue: The Dean campaign does not control its supporters - it inspires them, it empowers them, then it sets them free.  Howard Dean has never said that if he is not the nominee that he will tell his supporters to stay home.  

        He has merely stated the truth: His supporters were brought into this thing to support him.  If he isn't the nominee, he can't guarantee that they'll go flocking to someone else - no matter what he does.

        Why can't any of the other candidates (and so many of their supporters, fercryinoutloud) handle the truth?

        by mccbill on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 12:52:45 AM PDT

        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

          You wrote: "His supporters were brought into this thing to support him."  Not so; that implies they were passively pulled in (brought in) to his campaign as tools for him to use.  In reality, his supporters "bought in" to his message of empowerment and community and presidential change.  He treats them not like campaign tools, or serfs, but as free and independent citizens who have joined him in a campaign to change the (disastrous) course of this nation.   [I suspect that's really what you meant to say, and you did partially in the preceding paragraph.]

          by DenfromWisc on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 02:08:16 AM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    And you're clearly going to vote for Bush if Dean is nominated, right?  

    by Lois on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:42:58 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Lois, is that directed at me?

      If it is, read what I have posted probably 100 times.

      I despise Bush. I am ABB all the, always have been. I will vote for whoever gets the Dem Nom.

      THAT is why Dean's comment is so maddening.
      

      by nancie on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:26:25 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        no, I don't keep notes on the other posters, nancie.  Call me crazy but I thought that calling Dean an egocentric idiot meant you wouldn't vote for him.

        by Lois on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:49:47 PM PDT

        •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

          Hello lois, never have I said I wouldn't vote for him.

          The anger I have with him is because I DESPISE bush. That should be very clear in my above angry post.

          by nancie on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:55:18 PM PDT

          •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

            No, that wasn't clear at all, actually. But thanks for making it clear here (seriously). Some of us haven't read your earlier posts, or don't remember them, and that long post of yours sounded awfully trolly to the uninitiated.

            by markdonelson on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 02:51:39 AM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        It's interesting to see how much anger is generated all around each time this topic is brought up!  I actually got in a bit of a tiff with some folks on the Dean blog a while back, as someone running a website was asking all Dean supporters to stop over and pledge to vote Anyone But Bush.

        My issue was that, well, I don't feel that it is right for people to demand of me that I pledge to vote a certain way, period.  I feel the same way about declaring myself to be ABB - it rather seriously diminishes and perhaps totally undermines whatever reasons I might cite as to my preference for a specific candidate.  And it further contributes to the notion that the Democratic Party can take certain voters for granted and therefore should not listen to their concerns, nor should the leadership worry too much about mischaracterizing, alienating, or offending them, as they'll vote Democrat no matter what.  Why, when as a Dean supporter one is part of a movement that actually has political power, be so quick to toss it away by proclaiming, I'll actually vote for anyone?  

        I think, in fact, Dean would have been quite unjust to himself and his campaign had he told the reporters that Dean supporters would all turn right around and vote for any Democratic candidate that was nominated.  Frankly, it would sound like a rival candidate should feel free to pull out all the stops and do whatever was necessary to torpedo Dean's candidacy, as there would be no consequences if Dean's supporters were all so ready to switch just like that.

        by daria g on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 02:41:23 AM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    And if people like you support Clark, I want nothing to do with him. You're the same sanctamonious b** that started so many flame wars it was pathetic.

    by Mike S on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:49:29 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      Mike S, was that directed at me?

      by nancie on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:34:50 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      And if people like you support Clark, I want nothing to do with him.

      If all of us choose to not support the Dem nominee because we found some of his/her supporters annoying, Bush would win in a landslide.  I hope once a nominee prevails, logic and reason do as well.

      by PrometheusSpeaks on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:14:30 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    You need to read the entire article, nancie, and not just the part that fit neatly into your perceptions.

    "Dean repeatedly has said he would endorse the eventual Democratic nominee and urge his supporters to do the same. But he said there are limits to the practical impact of his endorsement."

    I've heard Dr. Dean say, in person, that if he is not the nominee he will fully support whoever is.  And he is definitely correct in saying that their are practical limits to his endorsement.  Did Al Gore's endorsement convince you to support Dean?  Didn't think so.

    Sorry, but the "ignorant fools" label just does not fit here, and I'm sorry you used it.

    by Len on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:05:27 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      I did read the whole article.

      Dean is using code. I posted about Bush's use of code somewhere else on this thread.

      And I won't take back what I said...anyone who thinks this is a game, and that this country can take another 4 years of the neocons...Think about what those 4 years will do to this country. God, I despise Bush. He is the worst. He is dangerous.

      And knowing that, some people still say they will protest vote or not vote at all if Dean doesn't get the nom.  If that isn't ignorant and foolish, then I sure as hell don't know what is.  

      by nancie on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:17:39 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        Once again, read what I typed.

        The people who will stay home on 11/02/04 are the people who would have stayed home anyway if Dean had never entered the race.  He has given them a reason to get out and vote.  Without him as the nominee, many of them will lose that reason.

        Code?

        Perhaps you will need to point the code in this statement out to me, since, by your estimation, I am an ignorant fool. "Dean repeatedly has said he would endorse the eventual Democratic nominee and urge his supporters to do the same."

        By the way, I will vote even if Dean is not the nominee (though I believe he will be).  I hate Bush just as much as you do.  Maybe more.  I had to put up with him as governor of my state for six long years.  Didn't like him then; don't like him now.

        by Len on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:38:01 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        In this very diary entry some Dean supporters, myself included, have said they endorse Anybody But Bush. And have critiqued those who said they would not vote or protest vote. And, to be fair,  

        I've seen the supporters of other candidates make "If it can't be X, I won't vote" comments. It isn't particular to Dean supporters.

        And sweeping generalizations about Deaniacs or Clarkies gets us nowhere fast.

        No, this isn't a game. The stakes are way, way too high.

        I find it unproductive to jump down the throat of any of the Democrats for the slightest perceived misstep. We're eating our own, and I find it frustrating.

        There are substantive issues which we can argue, but all the petty talk about electability, temperament and pandering is just throwing kerosine on our own funeral pyres.

        The media has accustomed too many of us to focus on minutia and miss the big picture. We do that at our peril.

        by Malacandra on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:39:18 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        some people vote for individuals.  That's the fact.

        Every candidate can say, "If I'm not the candidate, some unknown percentage of my supporters will stay home, even though I will myself vote for whomever the Democratic candidate is, and urge my supporters to do so as well."

        But it would be a bit of a joke if Joe Lieberman said that, wouldn't it?

        Is this what has turned you away from Dean?

        by pyrrho on Mon Dec 29, 2003 at 05:28:35 AM PDT

  •  general election

    If the election were today and the field was

    Bush/Cheney (Republican)
    Dean/Rockefeller (Democrat)
    Nader/LaDuke (independent)
    Camejo/XXX (Green)
    XXX/YYY (Libertarian)
    Brown/Herbert (Socialist)

    Who would you vote for?

    by Carl Nyberg on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:06:29 PM PDT

    •  triple x!

      Camejo/XXX (Green)
      XXX/YYY (Libertarian)

      you mean vin diesel would be running as a libertarian for pres and green for veep at the same time?  that's pretty wacky!

      by zeke L on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 11:32:05 PM PDT

      •  Re: triple x!

        That was almost funny...

        by Carl Nyberg on Tue Dec 30, 2003 at 01:22:08 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    Did you read the whole article, Nancie?  I think you're overreacting considerably.  Even the article, which is completely spun to be sensationalistic, has the following very reasonable context for his comments:

    Dean repeatedly has said he would endorse the eventual Democratic nominee and urge his supporters to do the same. But he said there are limits to the practical impact of his endorsement.

    Dean has said countless times that he will support the Democratic nominee.  And there is no doubt that he has brought many people into the primary process who were not motivated by or interested in any of the other candidates.   But of course there are limits to his endorsement -- just because I supported Clinton in 92 and 96 doesn't mean I would vote for whoever he endorsed, and many former Gore supporters are supporting other candidates.  And, frankly, many people who are turned off by other candidates are going to stay home if their candidate is not the nominee.

    I can't imagine that any thinking person would disagree with Dean's two main points:

    1. He brought many new people into politics this time that might not be as motivated to vote for someone else
    2. He will endorse whoever the nominee is and will urge his supporters to endorse that person if he doesn't win, but his endorsement doesn't automatically guarantee that his supporters will vote for that person.

    I am completely baffled by the innapproprite intensity of your response to this story -- Dean is an idiot? an ignorant fool? egocentric?   Those words are so disproportionately intense.

    Will you automatically support Dean if he wins and your favorite candidate now endorses him?  

    by Maura in VA on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 10:42:52 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  "Doomed" is the AP's word, not Dean's.

  I know several Green party folks who really like Dean, but hate the pro-war Dems.

  If Kerry is the nominee, they'll probably vote Nader.

  I also know some moderate Republicans who like Dean's stance on balanced budgets, but doubt a liberal like Gephardt would ever balance a budget.

  I'd say 75% of Dean's supporters are transferrable. But who knows what 25% will do?

  Keep in mind that Dean has consistently said that he will support the nominee, no matter who it is.

  by Jonathan4Dean on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:39:29 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    That sounds about right.

    by Lois on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:43:57 PM PDT

•  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

  Will most of Dean's people vote for another Dem if Dean doesn't get the nom? Of course they will.

  What they WON"T DO is:

  Give or raise money
  Man tables or pass flyers
  Communicate with each other in the blogs
  Volunteer to get out the vote
  Travel to another state to get out the vote
  Make the extra effort
  Etc, etc.

  by roboron on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 08:46:26 PM PDT

  •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

    So you really don't care about seeing Bush gone then? Your just there to push your little candidate that you fell in love with and get heartbroken when he loses the primary.

    by laddy on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:19:44 PM PDT

    •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

      I know you're just trying to stir things up. After all, your signature suggests that you are invested in knocking Dean, which may feel good to you, but doesn't do a bit to help get rid of Bush.

      Still, despite your belittling and antagonistic tone, I think you bring up a point that should be addressed.

      First of all, clearly the folks who are putting time and energy into electing Dean do care about seeing Bush gone. They're working hard, giving money and walking their talk. That's how a candidate who was largely unknown to the public 9 months ago gets to lead in so many of the polls. If you aren't doing likewise for your candidate, you are not in a strong position to criticize.

      Some of the other Democrats are waging some of the most negative campaigns in my fairly long memory to destroy Dean's candidacy. Are they campaigning in any way that makes it plausible for Dean supporters to transfer their loyalties? Are they reaching out to Dean's constituency or disparaging and alienating them?

      Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt are conducting scorched earth campaigns that make it virtually impossible for Dean supporters to feel that these are honorable, trustworthy candidates who are worthy of their support. When you go that negative, you have to be prepared for blow-back. I used to have great respect for Kerry and Gephardt in particular. I considered them good men who I could easily support if they got the nod. Their recent behavior, not only toward Dean, but in putting their own interests ahead of the party - and the electorate - has diminished them substantially in my eyes.

      Yes, when you've invested time and energy in a campaign, there is going to be a sense of loss when your candidate loses. And if the last man standing has burned the Dean bridge, he shouldn't be surprised when that constituency doesn't flock to his aid.

      I don't know that Clark has done this... although I've encountered a few of his supporters who seem intent to do this on his behalf.  I think this internecine warfare and bickering is extremely short sighted and gives Karl Rove new reasons to laugh at us every single day.

      I want to get rid of Bush and I want to also feel enthusiastic about who I supplant him with. I may have to settle for only trying to get rid of Bush. So be it.

      But you should also realize that marginalizing any candidate and dismissing his or her supporters doesn't help party unity and it won't help us get rid of Bush in the end.

      The stakes are high. We should be acting like grown-ups for heaven's sake.

      by Malacandra on Sun Dec 28, 2003 at 09:47:50 PM PDT

      •  Re: Dean: Dems Doomed if He Loses Nomination

        Malcandra,

        Thanks for the long response to my "snide" comment, which was not snide and only a comment. A quick look at my comments shows I'm not here to "stir things up." The reality is most of the time I spend on Kos boards involves me defending the DLC, Lieberman, or Kerry - who's supporters (sure there were few here) either have left after getting trounced and kicked in the mouth by Dean supporters since the summer or people who come in here and don't read the comments.

        Sometimes I try to put t