Spain elections open thread; Bush's allies are out

Spain's socialist party held the lead in early results. Turnout is 76 percent, 8 pecent better than in 2000.

With nearly half the votes counted, the opposition Partido Socialista Obrero Español (socialists) had 43.40 percent of the vote, or the equivalent of 165 seats in congress (up from the current 125). The ruling Partido Popular (center-right) had 36.81 percent, or 144 seats (down from the current 183).

176 seats are required for a ruling majority. Early results have, for some reason, always favored the socialists. But with two-thirds of the vote counted, the PP would have to stage an incredible comeback to pull this one off.

Spain's rulling party will be just the latest casualty of Bush's folly.

Final Update: With 99.95 percent in:

2004 Votes % 2000 Votes % PSOE 164 10,905,247 42.64 125 7,918,752 34.16 PP 148 9,626,407 37.64 183 10,231,178 44.52

Another Update: For the record, while the PSOE is called the Socialist Worker's Party of Spain, they aren't socialist in the "communist" sense. They are socialist democratic party such as have ruled France, Germany, and just about all of the rest of Europe on and off over the past decades.

The PSOE has ruled Spain in the past, and negotiated Spain's entry into NATO in 1986, and provided military support to the US during the Gulf War. Just remember that as the Right tries to demonize the PSOE.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:46 PM PST.

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253 comments | Permalink

Hey a Main page Spanish Election Thread! (none)

How cool.
The latest from TVE - PSOE - 43.%, PP - 36.6%
Cortes Breakdown - PSOe - 163, PP - 146

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:48:24 PM PST

56% reportng. (none)

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:50:16 PM PST

[ Parent ]

68% (none)

PSOE - 165, PP - 146, % PSOE 43.25, PP 36.8.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:53:57 PM PST

[ Parent ]

PSOE 43% ,PP 38% final (none)

The BBC story "Spanish opposition claims victory" says:

Spain's opposition Socialist party has claimed an unexpected victory in the country's general election with almost all the votes counted.
The Socialists have won 43% of the vote while the centre-right Popular Party has garnered 38%, reports say.

The poll has been clouded by claims that al-Qaeda carried out the Madrid bomb attacks that killed 200 people.

Officials said turnout was 62.9% just before voting ended - higher than the 55.5% at the same time in 2000's poll.

by Fred in Vermont on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:33:41 PM PST

[ Parent ]

The Spanish People weren't fooled (none)

Now the trick is for the American people to realize that Bush's arrogance has put them in danger and turn him out of office too. The Spanish people weren't fooled by the government providing fake enemies, maybe Americans will see through Bush's sham war on terrorism too.

by hg on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:52:39 PM PST

Not Fooled at all - - But would we be fooled? (4.00)

Here is an interesting excerpt from an article just posted at Yahoo News:
"Until the bombing, the conservative Popular Party was projected by most polls to beat the Socialists, although perhaps without retaining their majority in the 350-seat Congress of Deputies.
But the disaster, which the government initially blamed on the Basque separatist group ETA, threw the election wide open. The attack was followed by emotional rallies across the country.
Critics accused the government, which had trumpeted its crackdown on ETA, of manipulating the investigation for political gain. That struck a chord with voters.
"I didn't intend to vote, but changed my mind," said Javi Martin, 30, who works for a TV station in Madrid. "And not because of the attacks, but because of the responsibility of the Popular Party. They gave out information drop by drop. It would have benefited them if it were ETA."
Some voters were angry at outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, accusing him of making Spain a target for Islamic extremists because of his support for the Iraq war, despite the opposition of most Spaniards. Aznar sent 1,300 Spanish troops to Iraq after the conflict and 11 have died. "
Bush should be very wary about this. It will be interesting on how they try to spin this.
Yes of course we will hear about how the world is a dangerous place. But that is not the point. The point is on how THE PEOPLE of Spain voted out the administration who was guilty of manipulating the investigation for political gain. And yes we know and Bush knows this is EXACTLY what he has been doing on many fronts from the inception of the war to the 911 Investigation.
I can hardly wait until I hear what Kerry and his surrogates will say about this by comparing it to the Bush Junta's actions, reminding us that They gave out information drop by drop.
My only concern about this is how al Queda will react to this. Will they see success in their attack because the pro-war administration has been driven from power?
And if so will they plan a similar attack here, hoping for a similar reaction from U.S. voters?
And God forbid this should happen, would U.S. voters react in the same way that the Spaniards did and hold Bush responsible for another attack or will they rally around Bush and re-elect him?
What do you think?

by talex on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:05:02 PM PST

[ Parent ]

What do I think? (3.00)

Given that in Spain people actually receive an education rather than an indoctrination and that they didn't sleep through "How A Bill Becomes A Law" in high school, as most of our fellow citizens here did, i have to say if I was the Chimperor I would be hoping for an attack by Al Qaeda.
I don't know how many of you participated in discussion boards after 9/11 where the participants were from more "general" backgrounds than one finds here, but trust me - trying during that time to speak any truth about the event was a great way to end up with credible death threats in your e-mail in-box.
Unfortunately, a significant portion of our fellow citizens (I hesitate to think it's actually a majority), are politically illiterate. Applying that hypothesis to explaining political events in the US sadly ends up explaining more events than any competing hypothesis.
I certainly wish I wasn't so pessimistic, but I think it's clear the absolute worst thing that can happen this year would be another major terrorist strike inside the US.

William Goldman was right when he said the three rules of Hollywierd are "1) Nobody, 2) knows, 3) anything." Works in the real world, too.

by HollywierdLiberal on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:29:19 PM PST

[ Parent ]
When? (none)

I think if it happened tomorrow, we'd see Bush's numbers spike and then fall back down, as they did for the Sadaam capture (although probably more slowly).
If it happens the last week in October, I think Bush wins the election unless the Dems have made a strong case that national security is Bush's responsibility and the blame for a failure lies with him. It might help to point out that Bush wasn't a 9/11 victim, as he seems to think he was.

by badger on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:57:06 PM PST

[ Parent ]
an attack here (none)

Kerry has to take the initiative more pounding Bush for failing to provide national security against al qaeda rather than attacking phony enemies. He needs to listen to Howard Dean more. Otherwise, God knows what would happen if there were a real terrorist attack or a sham attack.

by hg on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:29:19 PM PST

[ Parent ]
This is what I was afraid of... (none)

Right there in the part you quoted...
Some voters were angry at outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, accusing him of making Spain a target for Islamic extremists because of his support for the Iraq war
I still maintain that to deal with Al Qaeda we need the cooperation of most of the world. Working together we can cut off their funds, bring the culprits to justice, and help advance a counter argument to that of bin Laden which is positive and promotes advancement.
But the Bush rhetoric is having just the opposite effect. During WWII, the belief of FDR's administration was that "You're either against us, or with us." Sounds familiar, but it's the opposite wording and is completely contradictory to the Bush administration's attacks upon reluctant allies. History has shown that FDR's stance was far more successful.
Now it has become the belief by most of the world that the Al Qaeda threat is not their responsibility, that by aiding the US they are only placing themselves in a position of risk.
Long term this isn't a good thing. I don't believe that Spain pulling out of Iraq, not helping the US, etc. will protect them from Al Qaeda. Bin Laden's goals are to disrupt western civilization, and they will hit any target which serves that end.
Hopefully the new goverment recognizes this and acts in their nations best interest. Perhaps it isn't in supporting the US, but they should still work to neutralize Al Qaeda.

by Steve4Clark on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 12:24:53 AM PST

[ Parent ]

You May be Right (none)

but what Spain does not do is enhance its safety by following the Bush agenda.
Spain has a long history of Islamic occupation, there is a cultural memory of Islam that is written in the landscape, they don't need leading to that water by Bushwah.
The struggle to solve the AQ problem is not, however, found by killing Iraqis and occupying their land. When in a hole, stop digging. Looks like Spain just put down its shovel to have another thought on the subject.
This is good.

"Till the last dog dies"

by Deep Dark on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 06:59:00 AM PST

[ Parent ]

Echo. (none)

Spain is DEFINITELY not safer having backed Bush. Unlike the rest of Europe, England excluded, the Spanish government totally isolated the country by supporting the war. Think about it this way: why would Spain be targeted over any other western european country? There is only one reason.
Furthermore, I didn't meet even one person in three and a half months in Spain last year who supported the actions of their government. The students were especially outraged--not unlike here, but in much greater proportions. Everyone kept telling me, "it's not our war. Why are we even over there?" My roommate was afraid even then that it would leave Spain open to attacks such as these.
And the propaganda issue is also compelling. The PP DID try to blaim ETA at first, an area where they have actually had measured success in containing ETA operatives. The thing is, unlike in America, the Spanish media actually presents different viewpoints at the national level. Their press is very worldly, and bullshit cannot be maintained by the government--as we saw yesterday.

"The greatest sin of our time is not the few who have destroyed, but the vast majority who've sat idly by." --Martin Luther King Jr.

by obietom on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:00:39 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Just under half or nearly 2/3? (none)

of the vote counted?
and what's "ruling majority" mean?

by Mike Stark on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:54:31 PM PST

A Ruling Majority (none)

and what's "ruling majority" mean?
As I understand it, a "ruling majority" refers to a majority so substantial that no groups, even by forming alliances, could overrule it (assuming party-line voting). We don't really have the concept in the US, since a two-party system makes any majority a ruling majority. However, with multi-party systems like Spain's, it is possible to win a plurality of seats, but still be in danger of being outvoted if other parties team up against you. A ruling majority makes this an impossibility. (Again, assuming party-line voting.)

--
Daniel A. Munz
Yale University
New Haven, CT

VISIT MY BLOG! Read Politics and War

by EliWho on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:57:36 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Ruling majority (none)

Well, you don't need any alliance with any other party to have the absolute majority in the Congress, which is highly useful as the Republicans prove on a weekly basis.
Whatever, with a 17 seats lead at 80% of the votes counted, I don't see the PP coming back now.
For the complete junkies and even more for the Spanish, the Basque result is interesting, with 9% of blank ballots - compared to the 2% at national level - which is mostly ETA followers that couldn't vote anymore for their political wing.
Whatever, Aznar boys got a serious spanking.
Now it'll be interesting to see how Rove spin that, how the rest of Europe will react (will the backlash extend to UK and Italy) and what the PSOE will do with the Iraq war.

by Clueless Joe on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:03:29 PM PST

[ Parent ]

As with many chambers (none)

Half plus one of solid votes is "a majority". In New York - with 150 seats in the assembly, we called it "The Rule of '76" - if you have 76 votes, fuck'em.
Since, in a parlaimentary system, keeping the government means keeping your majority, it is better to have enough seats without any allies. You don't have to give away ministries, you don't have to make compromises. The outgoing Aznar had 183 seats - a solid majority, meaning he could afford losses - such as deaths or resignations.
The incoming PSOE will have to ally with two parties to its left - meaning that it will have to move left as well, because it has become more "centrist" in recent years.

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:10:09 PM PST

[ Parent ]

true (none)

" You don't have to give away ministries, you don't have to make compromises"
but it's also not without some advantages, or at least consolations. It does, for example, allow you to throw your election manifesto out the window. After all, we'd love to fulfill all those promises but, short of a majority, we have to compromise.
Best of all, when it all starts to go pear shaped, you have someone who actually has some power and responsibility to spin spin spin against.

Never wrestle a pig... you both get dirty but the pig likes it.

by nyoos junkey on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 05:29:11 AM PST

[ Parent ]

Ah, the Francophile Popular Party ... (none)

...has taken a well-deserved hit. The popular percentages so far are almost an exact reverse of 2000, though the Socialists (PSOE) aren't likely to get as many deputies in the parliament as the Popular Party did.
Nonetheless, the turnout is superb and and the apparent outcome excellent.
One Kosopolitan, Stirling Newberry, has been providing excellent analysis on the Spanish elections and the Madrid Massacre.

"All those people who hate America love Michael Moore." - Bill O'Reilly

by Meteor Blades on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:55:24 PM PST

It is a sign (4.00)

Of what could happen here with a more aggressive press and active populace.
Another important distinction - the ministry of interior released information as fast as they got it, rather than politicising it, burying it or lying about it. This is another crucial difference - the Government was betrayed, in the end, as much by the efficiency of the people workin in the bureaucracy as anything else.
If we want America to be America again, these are two changes that the Reactionaries have wrought which must be reversed.

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:03:38 PM PST

[ Parent ]

A wonderful thing (none)

First, excellent coverage on the Spanish elections.
Second, the changes, there and here, are evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Those out of power are developing ways of communicating and effecting political change because the established modes do not function to their satisfaction.
Third, the growth of personal communication, the internet, cell phones, laptops and the like, is just a goddamn wonderful thing, isn't it?
Fourth, as the news of the Spanish election bounces around the corridors of power, all over the world, diapers are filling up. And they will not know what to do about it.

by James Earl on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:54:20 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Disagree, respectfully (4.00)

While I very much agree with Meteor Blades, that Stirling is providing the best stuff on the web about Madrid, I do disagree that this is a potential pattern for the U.S. In Spain, 90% of the populace opposed the war in Iraq as they, like the majority of Europeans, thought it would increase terrorism not decrease it, and the bombings confirmed this interpretation. In the US, alas, the majority still see Iraq as part of the war on terror and if a similar event happenened before the US election - god forbid - I think the response would be just the opposite, the need to intensify the fight and rally around the flag and vote Bush. Look what happened to Dean when he told the truth about Saddam's arrest not making America safer.

by angry moderate on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:58:38 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Not set in stone (none)

The widespread belief that 9/11 and Iraq are somehow connected is not something that can't be changed. Dean got slammed because he challenged that belief, but he did not back down (one of the reasons his supporters adore him). In fact, he repeated it again on Meet the Press this morning. While the belief remains widespread, it is not necessarily a majority anymore.
And while the belief in the connection between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein is widespread, it is a "soft" belief, based on ignorance and a failure to confront the facts.
If those in opposition to the Bush administration continue to hammer the point that there is no connection, and confront the public with the facts, things will change.

by James Earl on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:18:15 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Only in the US... (none)

Can a President benefit from failing. I agree, however, because the people of this country are stupid. No way would Bush have ended up anywhere near the leadership of any European nation.

Kerry Express 2004- Bridge Out Ahead!

by Asak on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 11:53:19 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Coalition (none)

Are there any parties who are winning seats who would be natural coalition allies for the Socialists if they fall short of a majority?

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:55:38 PM PST

It is at this point (none)

Easier for the PSOE to form a government. They can get two of the far left parties to support them.

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:59:06 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Coalition (none)

I've heard that PSOE, ERC, and IU have been discussing forming a coalition over the last few weeks.

by Firefly on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:59:57 PM PST

[ Parent ]
The third largest party ... (none)

...the regionalist CIU (Convergence and Unity) has been losing support for some time because of its support for the PP. They have 15 seats currently, but are likely to have only 10 in the new parliament.
All told, the left will be easily able to command a majority coalition.

"All those people who hate America love Michael Moore." - Bill O'Reilly

by Meteor Blades on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:04:13 PM PST

[ Parent ]

It is an electoral wipe out for the Right Wing PP (none)

http://es.news.yahoo.com/fot/ftxt/20040314215220.html
They went from 183 and an absolute majority to second place. They were up 11% two weeks ago, and 3.5% on Monday.
http://www.bopnews.com/archives/000358.html

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:55:43 PM PST
Respect democracies (none)

This is good news, but the response of the Kerry campaign should be low-key:

"Spain is a democracy, and we respect the decision of the Spanish people, just as we should respect and honor the results of democratic elections elsewhere in the world. We commend the courage of the Spanish people in showing that even a heinous terrorist attack will not stop them from exercising their democratic rights."
Subtext: Haiti, Venezuela, U.S. constitutional rights, October surprise warning.

I love Big Brother.

by C S McCrum on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:55:55 PM PST

May I ask,,, (none)

...what's your rationale on this stand? To avoid being connected with socialists and foreign entanglements?
Does your message, which I can see working, adequately connect to its subtext? I wondering particularly the October Surprise, which we should, IMHO, be shouting to the heavens about now, so as to deny the Bushies even a possibility.

by ct5voter on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:00:29 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Sounds like a good rationale to me. (1.20)

We REALLY REALLY REALLY do not want to be connected to the socialists. All sorts of Bad Things are down that road.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:03:57 PM PST

[ Parent ]

OK, (none)

...it was mildly humorous on the other thread, but now I'm starting to think that you're not engaging in satire.

by Dana Houle on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:08:45 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Satire is for poets and madmen. (1.77)

If the next Bush advertisement starts with "John Kerry, a supporter of socialist governments all over the world...", can you see how bad that will be for us?
Socialists may be with us on many issues, but in terms of deep ideology, socialists are not the friends of American liberals and never will be. What they want is anathema to both what most of America wants, and what our political climate allows.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:15:15 PM PST

[ Parent ]

I disagree (none)

The word "socialist" is, unfortunately, tainted in American discourse.
But ideologically, American liberals and European socialists are in accord. Socialist victories in Western Europe are a good thing for American liberals, and we should be happy when they occur.

by seaprog on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:21:20 PM PST

[ Parent ]

What you're forgetting... (1.88)

Is that while Americans love the culture, civilizations, and citizenry of Western Europe (and rightly so), they want nothing of the sort of the kind of tax laws and other systems of government that Europe has. America is, on the whole, a land of free-market moderates.
The word socialist is tainted in American political discourse, and whether that's for good or ill, we associate ourselves with that word at our grave peril.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:24:37 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Again, I disagree (none)

Americans are certainly more anti-tax than Europeans on average, but plenty of Americans are supporters of social democracy.
American liberalism (and contemporary Western European socialism, for that matter) are ideologies of "free-market moderates." American and European right-wing parties, on the other hand, are supporters of orthodox right-wing market ideology.
No Western European socialist party is anti-market. Like American liberals, they support a mixed economy of sensibly regulated markets and capital for the benefit of social democracy. The weight in Europe is towards more regulation and more of a social ethic, but in broad terms they're the same.
The "conservatives" are the real economic radicals, here and in Europe. If people could see past words such as "socialism" that have been turn into scare tactics, they'd understand that and support the moderate-left parties that most closely map to their principles.

by seaprog on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:33:29 PM PST

[ Parent ]

"Socialism" - Bring it on! (none)

Americans consistently prefer a single payer health care system when polled. I don't have the data but I'm pretty sure most Americans would prefer more vacation/holiday time and more liberal workplace rules.
Is this "Socialism"? Progressive ideas, like John Edwards argued, value work above wealth. Are reasonable checks to a free market "socialism"? If MediaInc. wasn't totally against these reforms maybe American workers would hear exactly what they get for being the most productive in the world..no health care and almost no vacation time relative to other countries. Like Gov. Dean said of poor southern workers "You have been voting Republican for 40 years, what do you have to show for it?" This ain't the Red Scare, it's a GOP scare.

"If we should fail?" "We fail! But screw your courage to the sticking-place, And we 'll not fail."

by joejoejoe on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:12:50 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Americans don't know what they believe... (none)

Because they just do what they're told by our right-wing corporate media. You know, the ones who claim outsourcing is good, or that free trade makes sense from a national standpoint-- meanwhile we hemorrhage all our wealth to the rest of the world.

Kerry Express 2004- Bridge Out Ahead!

by Asak on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 11:56:52 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Can't agree with this (none)

Outsourcing is painful, but free trade does make sense from a national standpoint. Lack of labor and environmental standards make it harder, but by most accounts Smoot Hawley tariffs are thought to be the proximate cause of the Great Depression.
And I think non-free trade, by which I mean, agricultural prices supports in addition to tariffs, are bad for the international economy in that they make it impossible for domestic farmers to compete in many third world countries.

by abbyv on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 11:37:10 AM PST

[ Parent ]

Social Security is Socialism (none)

Anyone wanna talk about doing away with that? Besides Bush, I mean.

Fight the bastards, rock the kids.

by flatulus on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:46:01 PM PST

[ Parent ]
ENOUGH WITH THE TROLL RATINGS, PLEASE. (4.00)

For the record, I don't agree with the notion that European socialism and American liberalism are ideologically incongruent. I also don't think this comment (or the one below) deserved the '4' I gave it. HOWEVER--I don't think that just because it presents a viewpoint that I disagree with means that it warrants a troll rating.
I don't think Superduperficial's other point, which is that the American public is highly suspicicious of all things 'socialist' or 'communist' is off track at all.
Again, just because you think certain elements of his reasoning are flawed, does NOT mean that he's a troll for stating it.
Say it with me now: "'2' is for marginal, '1' is for troll." There IS a difference.

"The greatest sin of our time is not the few who have destroyed, but the vast majority who've sat idly by." --Martin Luther King Jr.

by obietom on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:19:16 PM PST

[ Parent ]

You certainly are aptly named (none)

Super-Duper Superficial.

William Goldman was right when he said the three rules of Hollywierd are "1) Nobody, 2) knows, 3) anything." Works in the real world, too.

by HollywierdLiberal on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:35:43 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Rationale (4.00)
1. It's a breach of protocol to openly side with one party or the other in a foreign election. The Bushies do it all the time, but Kerry can signal a shift to a policy of mutual respect and robust alliances by adopting a more statesmanlike tone.
2. It wouldn't help Kerry in the US to publicly applaud any foreign party carrying the label "socialist."
3. It's possibl that Al Qaeda attacked Spain because Aznar sided with the U.S. in Iraq. The U.S. shouldn't have attacked Iraq; Aznar shouldn't have sided with the U.S.; the Spanish people understood that; Bush didn't; Aznar didn't. That's true regardless of what Al Qaeda might have done or what its motivations might have been. Kerry should keep a respectful distance. Kerry can say "Bush's Iraq policy is a failure," and he can say, "I honor the exercise of democracy in Spain and elsewhere." I don't think he needs to say much more. Should he say that Spain made itself a target? I think that might be misunderstood.
I agree, the subtext does need to be made explicit, if not here then in other comments. Kerry earlier condemned the ouster of Aristide. Vaccination against an October Surprise is tough. I see it as something that has to be done by multiple mutually reinforcing messages. This is one opportunity to deliver part of it --- democracy goes on, regardless of terrorist attacks, and in a strong democracy, changes of government can occur even within days of an attack.
I love Big Brother.

by C S McCrum on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:36:32 PM PST

[ Parent ]

First, thank you..... (4.00)

...for your obviously thoughtful reply.
You're absolutely right about protocol. That's reason enough for a candidate to hang back for right now. But I see there being a broader picture to be concerned with.
The American right is already trying to spin this as the Spanish being cowed by terrorists. Nothing could be further from the truth, IMHO, and Sterling Newberry is making excellent points in support of this. JFK is probably the only Dem who will be able to get an alternative version out there fast enough. That said, contrary to my postings elsewhere, I don't think he should make this about Bush, at least not yet. Rather, "he supports democracy, courage in the face of attempts to intimidate. It's clear today that Spain has stood up to the terrorists and that the Spanish people will not be cowed." Otherwise, the CV gets set faster than ever, and our allies look like cowards, while Bush can claim that America alone rejects terrorism.
So, a refinement of your suggestion, but one that starts the ball rolling. A mention of October, perhaps, "when Americans will speak with equal courage against the fear mongerers and terrorists, and reject misguided wars" might, with finesse, be squeezed in.

by ct5voter on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:47:06 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Side note (none)

absolute majority is 176 seats - there are 350 seats in the lower house.

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:56:43 PM PST

Dyslexia (none)

I put 167 instead of 176. Oops!

by Oregon guy on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:59:51 PM PST

[ Parent ]

I did the same thing (none)

I've been reading up on the election all day. I just don't know how to divide 350 by two, plus one.

by kos on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:09:16 PM PST

[ Parent ]

That's OK (none)

The popular party isn't going to get to either of those numbers...

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:15:35 PM PST

[ Parent ]

ERC, and IU will give PSOE power w/o PP (none)

The popular party isn't going to get to either of those numbers...

According to this AP story

The Socialist Party declared victory with 79 percent of the votes counted, as results showed it winning 164 seats in the 350-member parliament and the ruling Popular Party taking 147. The latter had 183 seats in the outgoing legislature.

It looks like the PSOE only need about a dozen more votes. The ERC, and IU ought to be able to provide them. Is there any real way the PP could get almost 30?

The one thing the Spanish press seemed to agree upon was that everyone should vote and turnout was very high. Some of the papers urged a "national unity" government if the there was a deadlock between the PP and the PSOE but that does not seem to be an issue.

by Fred in Vermont on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:08:55 PM PST

[ Parent ]

PSOE Declares Victory! (none)

Says Victory is Clear and across the board. Says it can and will form new Government!

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:58:04 PM PST

Saw it live on TVE (none)

What a wipeout!

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:59:38 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Fox broke in (none)

while with the Spanish Amb to the UN to announce Socialist declare victory.

by Marisacat on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:01:03 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Lead sentence at the NYT (none)

Voter turnout was reportedly high and while exit polls differed, they indicated a very tight race.

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:04:14 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Not to close (none)

Looks like a 6 point win for PSOE.
I say again, for me, a shocking result. The bombing and the PP's handling has to be looked at as main variable.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:08:12 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Duh... (none)

not that shocking really... Al Qaeda attacking a country for supporting the Iraq war when 90% of the country was against the war... the results make perfect sense.

by Cathan on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:37:50 AM PST

[ Parent ]

Most Shocking of All (4.00)

76 percent voter turnout. I can't even imagine what that's like.

Rocket propelled ->

by Rp on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 05:59:54 PM PST

You won't have to (none)

come November.

Mas vale vivir de pie que morir de las rodillas - not Zapata

by Jeff Simpson on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:03:27 PM PST

[ Parent ]

If only!! (none)

America will be lucky to get 40% turnout. People here don't care about anything political.

by JamesB3 on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:04:57 PM PST

[ Parent ]

No (none)

Not in Presidential elections. At its worst, turnout has been 50% in pres. election years. I think it might be a bit higher this year, about 55%, I would guess.
Ben P

Benjamin Disraeli + Robert LaFollette = Ben P

by Ben P on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:06:53 PM PST

[ Parent ]
This year (none)

is going to be different. Actually it already has been.

Mas vale vivir de pie que morir de las rodillas - not Zapata

by Jeff Simpson on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:07:13 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Schwing (none)

In some countries, voting is mandatory. I don't know if Spain is an example, but in Australia, you can be fined for failure to vote.
I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not.

by Potted Plant on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:03:46 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Also... (none)

Many western European countries register you to vote at birth.
Not sure if Spain works that way.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:05:08 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Australia (none)

Is rather an exception.

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:05:15 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Clarification (none)

Down Under, you have to turn in a ballot. It can be a non-vote; you can vote for Mickey Mouse or Ned Kelly or Santa Claus. But the obligation is to participate in the polling of the body politic.
It's a fine, but meaningful, distinction.

The penalty good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves. -- Plato

by ogre on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:29:15 PM PST

[ Parent ]

How much is the fine? (none)

How much is the fine?

by MediaFreeze on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 10:09:34 PM PST

[ Parent ]

It's like a parking ticket (none)

I think it's 25 AUD which is about 15 USD. Also, the way I heard it, you don't have to actually cast a ballot. You just have to show up at the polls and have your name checked off. You can then leave without voting, if that's what you want to do.
We have compulsory voting in the US too, with rather strict enforcement, for things like jury duty. It wouldn't be that far a stretch to have it for elections as well. If we can be held to our civic duty to express our judgement on criminal suspects and civil litigants, we certainly have a similar duty to judge our government and its leadership.

by clyde on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 11:15:43 PM PST

[ Parent ]
About US$25 (none)

Not a great deal, but enough to make the point.
It should be noted that there is no legal requirement to cast a valid vote. If you don't want to vote for anyone, you go and invalidate your ballot (and the number of invalid ballots is recorded). So Australia doesn't force you to select a candidate, it just requires you to show up and take responsibility for choosing or not choosing as you wish.
Oh - and pretty well any even vaguely legitimate excuse is accepted if you can't vote (out of state, ill, ill relative etc..)

Why not read Things I've Seen?

by tis on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:47:31 AM PST

[ Parent ]

More than that... (none)

As I recall, the fine doesn't cover the cost of the two (2) cops who came to my door to ask why I did not vote. "I had the flu" was ok, no fine.
I always valued the fact that two cops came to ask why you did not vote. So if, say, the polling place was moved, or you were threatened, the law was there to hear about it. At least that was what used to happen, a long time ago in a place far away.

by robyn on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:53:22 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Expect an increase here... (3.50)

Don't be surprised if we get close this year. We had 100M in 2000, I'm guessing we can get substantially more this time around. Not 76%, but maybe 65? Politics in America may be changing. As I said two years ago, wouldn't it be amazing if Bush ends up becoming a hero for all the causes he fought against?

by CTDem2 on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:04:48 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Not that high (none)

The FEC has a history of turnout in federal elections. I'd say the closest parallel is the 1992 election, where turnout was 55%. We just might exceed that, since Bush fil is such a polarizing figure, much more so than his dad.
If I remember correctly, youth turnout was quite high that year. Clinton turned out the youth vote in a way that Gore didn't touch. Part of that was generational, I'd imagine. Bush I was WWII generation, Clinton Vietnam; that deep fault line in American culture. Shorter version: Clinton was hip, Bush was a geezer.
But young people are certainly energized this go-round.

In the voting booth, no one can hear you scream.

by hamletta on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:16:21 PM PST

[ Parent ]

VAP vs Registered (none)

Usually when people are tossing around figures about turnout, they're referring to the percentage of the voting age population. The the portion of the population that's old enough to vote and registered, not even those that are old enough, unregistered but eligible to register.
No, they're referring to all people who are voting age, even if they can't vote. That includes felons. That includes resident aliens. That includes everyone that counts in a census. That's one of the reasons that low-emmigration states like the Dakotas have incredibly high T/O rates, and states with lots of immigrants who aren't yet citizens like CA, NY, and FL have such low rates. (Of course there are plenty of other reasons, but that's one that's seldom discussed.)

by Dana Houle on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:25:08 PM PST

[ Parent ]

True (none)

But isn't VAP is the metric generally used for trend lines?
They do keep track of VAP vs. registered. It'd be interesting to look at comparisons of the ratios you've mentioned.
Also, with the trend to pull juvenile offenders into the adult justice system, how many kids are disenfranchised before they're even eligible to vote?

In the voting booth, no one can hear you scream.

by hamletta on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:46:15 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Trend Lines (none)

Trendlines are a key issue, because at the same time turnout has supposedly gone way down, the number of foreign-born and resident alien people in the US has skyrocketed to levels unseen since the early 20th century. Thus, there's a key factor that would affect the whole turnout question, and it's hardly mentioned.

by Dana Houle on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:54:21 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Hmmmm (none)

Has anyone analyzed that data? If so, it hasn't been publicized.
Seems everybody bemoans declining voter turnout, voter apathy, etc. If the metric they're using doesn't tell the whole story, such an analysis would be a good damn story.
Hmmm...my bidness partner is a stastical wiz, and I know a guy who knows William Rivers Pitt....
Seems you'd want to compare VAP with VAP that's actually eligible to register in the first place. Because they do often include turnout versus registered.

In the voting booth, no one can hear you scream.

by hamletta on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:17:31 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Aren't European democracies great? (none)

Election Day is a national holiday over there, as it is in many responsible democracies. Campaigning is prohibited for the last 72 hours (I believe) and the Sunday is a day of reflection and solemnity. Everyone votes because it's a day off. And in Spain everyone remembers Franco.
Imagine if we got serious about voting here.

by ct5voter on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:05:11 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Actually, everybody doesn't vote ... (none)

...the turnout last time was far less. But we ought to make Election Day a holiday.

"All those people who hate America love Michael Moore." - Bill O'Reilly

by Meteor Blades on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:12:33 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Not gonna happen (none)

I can see the rationale, for PR purposes, to drive up turnout by making Election Day special.
But it's not bloody likely, since the bidness community would resist it, and it'd be a pain in the ass. And you couldn't move it to Saturday or Sunday without encountering the objections of various religious communities.
The next best thing is early voting, which is becoming pretty widespread. Here in Tennessee, voting starts a couple of weeks before election day. For federal elections, they even put polls in shopping malls. And they're open on weekends and evenings.
You increase access without creating a big burden for the whole community, just some extra hours for election workers.

In the voting booth, no one can hear you scream.

by hamletta on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:29:04 PM PST

[ Parent ]

You know... (none)

I've heard the idea floated of moving Veterans Day to Election Day, or vice versa. I know Nov 11 is pretty important, but what better way to honor our veterans than exercising the rights they protected? I think taking Sunday would be a good idea, but Tuesday's in the Constituion, so there's that consideration.
What you mention are good first steps, but there's something to be said for a real national day of reflection. America has such a weak sense of civic duty and virtue as it is.

by ct5voter on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:52:38 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Tuesdays (none)

I don't think that Tuesday (or any other day) is specified in the Constitution. I just looked and couldn't find it. But I could be wrong.

by runchadrun on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:11:33 PM PST

[ Parent ]

You're right of course... (none)

What an idiot. I was relying on a post I'd seen a couple of weeks back and in my haste didn't bother to do a simple Google search. Serves me right.
Great explanation here.
The good news is, that I'm wrong and Election Day is just in the US Code. So a holiday is possible.

by ct5voter on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:36:19 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Thank you (none)

A regrettable use of hyperbole, of course. Thanks.

by ct5voter on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:29:05 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Terribly low, yes... (none)

compared to Australia's 85-90%. Got to love mandatory voting.

Why not read Things I've Seen?

by tis on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:05:45 PM PST

[ Parent ]
I know! (none)

I was gonna comment on that, too. And it's, like, almost normal. It's only up 8% from the last election. The best we've done that I can find was 63% in 1960.
Maybe Spaniards value the franchise more, since it's only been 30 years since Francisco Franco began his valiant struggle to remain dead.

In the voting booth, no one can hear you scream.

by hamletta on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:08:02 PM PST

[ Parent ]

still after all these years (none)

he remains dead, even if barely so.

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

by Greg Dworkin on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:13:49 PM PST

[ Parent ]

OK (none)

Now you guys are showing your age if you understand that Generalissimo Franco remains seriously dead.

I don't belong to any organized political party, I'm a Democrat--Will Rogers

by Dancing Larry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:39:49 PM PST

[ Parent ]

well, i am as old as... (none)

...he's dead...

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

by Greg Dworkin on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:03:55 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Now the fun with Bush starts (none)

Does Spain unceremoniously withdraw from the coalition of the willing? Is it played as a rebuke to Bush here?
I have no clue and based on the absolute incorrectness of my predictions to day, I won't venture anymore guesses, my wounds need licking.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:02:40 PM PST
Ha! Bush just electd a Socialist GovernmenT! (3.66)

I love that one.
Unfortunately- we have the prospect of the OPPOSITE happening in Britain and the Thatcherites coming back into power - which is of course just what Bush wants.

"Power, greed and corruptable seed seem to be all there is" --Bob Dylan, "Blind Willie McTell"

by jgkojak on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:05:06 PM PST

No... (1.75)

Bush didn't elect a socialist government. Terrorist bombers did.
I'm not trying to spin the analysis, but it's worth keeping the realities in mind -- Spain's ruling party would have handily won the election, had 11-M not happened and been linked to Al-Qaeda.
In fact, they would have increased their majority if 11-M had happened and been conclusively claimed by the ETA.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:07:46 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Dead Wrong (4.00)

The PP had been bleeding support for the last two weeks, and was only a bit ahead on Monday (3.5% to be exact), and was admitting that they were going to lose their aboslute majority.
The government's lying about the bombing merely turned it into a rout.

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:18:25 PM PST

[ Parent ]

This is true... (none)

However, it's only a portion of what contributed to the results -- 11-M definitely influenced turnout and favored the socialists, among other things. However, all of this is beside the point that Bush didn't get a socialist government elected.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:27:51 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Actually... (none)

As I've read and argued elsewhere, the PP's blatant attempt to manipulate the facts probably had a large part in the margin of victory.

by ct5voter on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:34:12 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Eh. (1.14)

There's not really much to say to that except that it's completely and entirely wrong, and shows a massive ignorance of what the body politic pays attention to and what their thought patterns are.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:46:32 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Yes, well... (3.66)

I don't put much stock in empty phrases like "thought patterns" and am the first to admit that I don't have a detailed knowledge of what the Spanish body politic pays attention to. I'd be interested in seeing some evidence of your own prescient grasp on the Spanish public's thoughts. For instance, you seemed pretty confident above that "terrorist bombers [elected a socialist government]."
My post was pretty narrow in scope and supported by some widely reported protests in Madrid last night and early this morning. It was also based, admittedly, on a supposition that the Spanish "body politic" might pay attention to a pretty obvious attempt by the PP to misdirect attention onto ETA and away from al Qaida. But of course, I don't know much about thought patterns, so what the hell.

by ct5voter on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:05:35 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Distinction without a difference? (none)

However, all of this is beside the point that Bush didn't get a socialist government elected.
Rather Bush's alliance with the PP weakened them sufficiently that the Socialists could take governing control away from them.

The polls don't tell us how a candidate is doing, they tell us how the media is doing.

by Thumb on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:39:29 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Of course Bush got a socialist gov't elected (none)

If George Bush doesn't invade Iraq, Aznar doesn't commit Spanish men and material to a military operation opposed by 90% of the population, if Aznar doesn't make that commitment, AQ doesn't kill 200 Spainards, if AQ doesn't kill 200 Spainards, Aznar's party probably wins. George Bush did get a socialist
government elected. Next stop, 10 Downing St.

by Robert Drake on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:24:36 AM PST

[ Parent ]

No again (none)

Bush didn't elect a socialist government. Terrorist bombers did.
I'm not trying to spin the analysis, but it's worth keeping the realities in mind

You are missing the point. If you want to hear some spin wait until you hear what the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee Pat Robertson was saying today: The reason AQ decided to stage the massacre in Madrid was that the opposition party had said that they wanted Spain out of Iraq. And he was saying this before we knew much about the results. Now this result has just proven his point about how smart AQ is, and how treacherous it was of the Socialists to have broken ranks in the war on terror.

And of course Senator Lieberman was right there seeming to second all of this. I just hope that no American politicians will be foolish enough to question Bush's war like those Spanish Socialists did. Having seen this the American people would probably know who to blame if there were some election eve atrocity here. And they will understand the dangerous game any politicians who try to make a political issue out of the war are playing.

How do you like that spin? Get used to it.

by Fred in Vermont on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:30:09 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Heaven help us! (none)

That's Pat Roberts, not Pat Robertson.

I don't belong to any organized political party, I'm a Democrat--Will Rogers

by Dancing Larry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:45:28 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Thatcherites won't be back (none)

The chances that the Tories win the next election are slim to none. Of course, there's a school that New Labour has slid so far rightward that they're about where Thatcher used to be, but I don't think we're in that bad shape yet.

The Kossary. Help build the dKos glossary, come show us how smart you are. Requests welcome.

by Nick on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:29:02 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Conservatives (none)

They have changed somewhat in the intervening years. Personally, I prefer them to the faux Third Way of Blaur which is rather intellectually dishonest.
Britain got involved in the war under Tony Blair. It would be hard to blame them if they wanted to rebuke those who lied to them about WMD.

by abbyv on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 11:58:55 AM PST

[ Parent ]

76% Reporting (none)

Total Vote % Seats
PSOE 8.489.597 43,13 % 165
PP 7.300.836 37,09 % 146

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:05:12 PM PST
Classic FoxNews a minute ago ... (4.00)

The interviewing talking to the Spanish Ambassador: With the socialists winning ... "is this a victory for the terrorists?"
God! So damn over the top ...

My blog: politizine & Nader didn't cost Gore in 2000

by radiotony on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:05:40 PM PST

Seems to follow on that Washington Times ... (none)

...poll which asked respondents whether the terrorists wanted John Kerry or George Bush to win the election in November.

"All those people who hate America love Michael Moore." - Bill O'Reilly

by Meteor Blades on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:10:09 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Typical media (none)

If the PP had won they'd make this look good for Bush. The PP has lost and they'll still make it look good for Bush.
You guys don't think this will actually make Bush even more popular, do you? Because the media will tell people that we can't "let the terrorists win like they did in Spain"?

by JamesB3 on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:13:02 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Daydreaming... (none)

What if... the 2000-2004 shift Kos just posted...
is reproduced in the US House of Reps?

by CTDem2 on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:06:26 PM PST

Daydream yourself (none)

pushing people to the polls. If we do it, it will happen.

Mas vale vivir de pie que morir de las rodillas - not Zapata

by Jeff Simpson on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:10:56 PM PST

[ Parent ]
They don't have gerrymandering in Spain (none)

This is great news but Spain is very different from the US. All of Europe is (for better or worse). The GOP have total control here and they won't give that up no matter what.

by JamesB3 on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:11:01 PM PST

[ Parent ]

OK (none)

Oh, I forgot. Politics in Spain is clean... ;)
Yes gerrymandering is a problem, but if you think Dems didn't do it for decades, you're fooling yourself. It didn't keep 1994 from happening.

by CTDem2 on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:21:23 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Technology (none)

Except that today we have sophisticated computer programs that can do much more efficient job of drawing district boundaries in order to maximize one party's strength than any legislatures with magic markers and maps could in earlier times.

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:31:45 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Republicans made 1994 happen (none)

Gerrymandering for political control of the house has been a program of the Republicans since the 60s. The Republicans have focused on controlling state legislatures (See Texas & Colorado 2003). In addition, the Republicans have controlled the Justice Department in the year after the last three census/redistricting cycles. They could, therefore, control which, if any, redistricting plans were challenged by the federal government under the Voting Rights Act.
Gerrymandering is game played by whichever party is in power. This doesn't make it right. However, it has been used in the last thirty years to consolidate Republican power in the House.

by James Earl on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:07:38 PM PST

[ Parent ]

A 7 percentage point shift in support (none)

from the Republicans to the Democrats (which is equivalent to what happened in Spain from 2000 to 2004) would probably shift the American political outlook even more dramatically. Certainly, it would be enough to shift control of both Houses of Congress and the Presidency.

by ohwilleke on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:32:19 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Domino Effect? (3.60)

There was a lot of speculation before the election about whether the Madrid bombings would produce a rally-round-the-flag effect or a repudiation of the PP for going along with Bush. Now we know; happily the voters proved the worst thing a government can do is ignore it's people. But it doesn't mean a terrorist act here before the election would have the same effect . Unlike Spain the anti-war movement was much smaller here and a majority supported the war. So large numbers would probably not be as pissed off...
But it'll be interesting to see the ripple effect of this election on everyone involved in the Iraq fiasco. Will it provoke fear and miscalculation? Will an unexpected meme take hold? It certainly proves the it's more important rebuke a government that ignores you, then to worry about rewarding terrorists with a victory which is how a withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq will be interpreted.
The message: A government that doesn't keep faith with it's people is the greater evil.

<"Do not seek the treasure!" >

by moon in the house of moe on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:09:44 PM PST

the other message today (3.50)

"The message: A government that doesn't keep faith with it's people is the greater evil."
But it also means that AQ won another battle, the message being "Terrorists can affect change within countries." I find that extremely chilling. From a purely selfish perspective, I hope they realize that the same event here would not remove Bush from office. On the other hand, maybe they prefer Bush...

by lapis on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:22:23 PM PST

[ Parent ]

I find it hard to believe... (none)

That AQ has a significant preference either way for the United States presidency. They'll still hate us, and they'll still want to kill us.
Here's hoping we don't get attacked -- but you're right, the terrorists influencing the results of an election is quite a chilling trend.
It's nothing new, though -- terrorism has been used to influence the course of nations (Hi, Israel! Hi, Palestine!) since time immemorial. Sometimes it works well (causing the British to pull out of Palestine), sometimes it doesn't (suicide bombings, for a time, only served to strengthen Sharon's ruling government).

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:30:43 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Nonsense (4.00)

What killed the government was blaming ETA quickly for its own advantage. They went from a trifle up to way down. Two days ago a quarter of spain marched in rallies lead by the PP, Aznar spoke at Atocha station.
That's a lesson the right wing needs to learn: you can't fool enough of the people enough of the time to stay in power forever.

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:30:52 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Let's hope (none)

People here are as wise to cynical ploys as the Spanish appeared to be.

by Upper West on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:11:54 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Why does the democratic process hate America? (none)

Why does the free will of free voters hate America?

by Volvo Liberal on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:10:49 PM PST
Latest AP article (none)

Spain's Socialists Appear Poised to Win

Kerriatric Tammany Democrat and proud of it!

by John R on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:14:44 PM PST
El Ultimo Enviado de Madrid (none)

The street sings Victory
10:03 pm, Madrid time
The street is agitated; those gathered there already celebrate the victory in which many voters describe as a democratic rebellion. The unusual participation and the tension we have lived through in the last few days has invited reflection such that very few people could have remained in their homes and not gone to the polling places to vote.
(PSOE leader) Zapatero will not appear until the count is decisive; but party officials state that the PSOE will form a Government in the event of the PSOE gaining more votes than the PP - as he is a man of his convictions.
La calle canta victoria (22.03)
La calle está agitada: los congregados ya celebran la victoria en lo que muchos votantes han calificado de rebelión democrática. La insólita participación y la tensión que se ha vivido en los últimos días invita a pensar que muy pocos han podido quedarse en su casa para acudir a las urnas. Zapatero no comparecerá hasta que esté el recuento casi completo, pero desde su partido adelantan que formará Gobierno si consigue un voto más que el PP porque es un hombre de convicciones.

by Oregon guy on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:15:54 PM PST
Question o' the day... (3.00)

Tony Blair, are you getting nervous?

Jae

by Jsea on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:16:58 PM PST
For those who are interested (none)

In the Autonomia of Madrid, there was a 700,000 vote change from the 2000 results.
PP went form a 20 point win 4 years ago to a 2 point LOSS this year.
Again, the bombing and the aftermath have to be looked a hard here as an explanation.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:17:16 PM PST

The other right wing party also lost seats (none)

Originally it was expected that if the PP lost they would form a government with the CiU. CiU went from 15 to 10. Another rebuke

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:20:41 PM PST

[ Parent ]

For more contrast (none)

In Castilla-La Mancha, the PP lost 5% of its support from 2000, so a 10 point win turned into a virtual tie. Thus, the results in Madrid are much more dramatic.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:36:00 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Wow, Armando (none)

That is HUGE.
Daaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

by Oregon guy on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:21:00 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Wow, Armando (none)

That is HUGE.
Daaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

by Oregon guy on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:21:19 PM PST

[ Parent ]
To draw a comparison (3.50)

it's as if Kerry wins in Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi. Pretty f-ing unbelievable.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:21:48 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Banner At NYTimes.com (4.00)

"NEWS ALERT
Socialists Declare Victory Over Ruling Party in Spanish Vote (4:11 PM ET)"
Spanish government tried to use unspeakable terrorist crime to its own advantage, Spanish public saw through it, it seems. Spaniards are smart.

by hind on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:19:46 PM PST

Um... (1.33)

You do realize that 11-M, being tied to Al-Qaeda, was used by the socialists to their advantage? The Spanish people blamed the PP for supporting Bush in Iraq, and thus bringing an Al-Qaeda attack down upon them.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:37:26 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Weak Argument (3.80)

Government was on way to slim victory, tried to win big victory by cashing in on terrorist atrocity, paid the price for its lies. Spaniards saw through it, ETA can't do this type of act, out of their league. Made voters remember how Aznar ignored their wishes and acted as vassal to Bush.
Really like the way you blame Spanish public for al-Qaeda attack, were we to blame for 9/11? Cheap, sleazy rhetoric, that.

by hind on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:22:26 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Fox about to carry (none)

live news conf from PP in Spain. Or so they say... they ahve been running split screen with live shots of the streets.
The spin on Fox is that the terrorists (terrists) brought about the outcome they desired by carrying out the bombing.

by Marisacat on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:21:14 PM PST

Spain Elections Commission Declares PSOE Winner (none)

I's official

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:24:12 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Gov't Spokeperson Congratulates PSOE (none)

Promises cooperation in transition.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:26:07 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Mea culpa (3.33)

I was wrong. I thought sure the conservatives would benefit from the attack. Just goes to show you that you never know.

by Paleo on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:23:08 PM PST

Join the Crow Club (3.50)

It tastes good in this case.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:25:10 PM PST

[ Parent ]

I recommend (4.00)

liberal serving of a rich sauce with the crow.... ;-)

by Marisacat on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:26:57 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Cuervo (none)

con una salsa boricua picante!

by CSTAR on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:48:37 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Check out what they're saying at LGF (3.75)

Commenters at the virulently anti-Muslim site "Little Green Footballs" are falling to pieces. Some are calling Spanish voters "morons", "idiots", "cowards", and "dhimmis". One warns darkly that Kerry might be welcoming a similar attack in the United States. Another speculates that the Socialists may have had a hand in the attacks.
If you've never visited this site, do so. It's scary to see what is said in their comments section every day.

by tyronen on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:29:49 PM PST

The right wing had better get used to losing (3.50)

Remember that two weeks before the election, the PP was up - by a lot - in the wake of an ETA bomb plot that was foiled. The Spanish public wanted to get tough on the domestic terrorists.
Then a bomber was caught, and it seemed suspicously timed. There were questions in the press, the PSOE accused the government of "politicizing" the investigation.
That's what shifted - the people of spain came to distrust the PP.

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:34:13 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Wow (4.00)

Yeah... After reading what Right wing bloggers think, I cannot imagine anything like that being said here or at any of out allied blogs...
We just have to get Bush out of power, this is the type of xenophobic idiocy that runs the US now
O, and congrats to Spain, for having both balls and brains... A true ally of actual democracy

"You know what my 2 year old Granddaughter says, she says John Kerry is the Real Deal" ~ Jeanne Shaheen "Yeah, and then she poops in her pants" ~ Jon Stewart

by Matt in Wisconi on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:46:11 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Wow (none)

Yeah... After reading what Right wing bloggers think, I cannot imagine anything like that being said here or at any of our allied blogs...
We just have to get Bush out of power, this is the type of xenophobic idiocy that runs the US now
O, and congrats to Spain, for having both balls and brains... A true ally of actual democracy

"You know what my 2 year old Granddaughter says, she says John Kerry is the Real Deal" ~ Jeanne Shaheen "Yeah, and then she poops in her pants" ~ Jon Stewart

by Matt in Wisconi on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:46:45 PM PST

[ Parent ]
It gets even better (none)

They've linked created an entire thread in response to my comment above. Various Kos-bashing follows; the thread's title calls this site "Appeasement Central", if you can believe that.
Actually, they don't scare me any more; they make me laugh.

by tyronen on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 11:01:46 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Take the poll! (none)

Go Meteor Blades!
All of you: Take the poll at LGF!
"Who would the terrorists want to win the election? Kerry or Bush?"

by PoliticGeek Pro on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 06:41:21 AM PST

[ Parent ]

The PSOE Has Won the Election (3.33)

The PSOE Has Won the Election (10.14)
"Total victory for the Socialist Party." Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba raised his thumbs in the air. "The PSOE has won the elections," said a visibly emotional Jose Blanco. A clear victory in both parliamentary seats and votes with gains in the automonous communities and the large cities.
Now, the campaign director, who preached caution early in the evening, now explains the conditions under which the PSOE will govern Spain. However, he also is stating a message of calm to party activists and all Spaniards for the imminent summons with the final results, at which he will accompany Luis Rodriguez Zapatero.
At the press room the socialist spokeswoman of the City council of Madrid, Trinidad Jiménez enters with the tearful eyes and she has embraced her companions. From the street - Yes, now there are shouts of euphoria and joy.
"El PSOE ha ganado las elecciones" (22.14)
"Victoria homogénea del Partido Socialista". Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba ha levantado el pulgar en alto. "El PSOE ha ganado las elecciones", ha dicho visiblemente emocionado José Blanco. Victoria clara tanto en número de escaños como de votos con un crecimiento en todas las comunidades autónomas y en todas las grandes ciudades. Así, el coordinador de la campaña, si bien en su primera comparecencia pedía cautela, ha salido para explicar que el PSOE está en condiciones de gobernar España. No obstante, ha reiterado un mensaje de serenidad a los militantes y a todos los ciudadanos a los que convoca para la próxima comparencia con los resultados finales que otorgará José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero. En la sala de prensa ha entrado la portavoz socialista en el Ayuntamiento de Madrid, Trinidad Jiménez, con los ojos llorosos y se ha abrazado a sus compañeros. Desde la calle, ahora sí, gritos de euforia.

by Oregon guy on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:32:28 PM PST
PP Reaction Now on TVE (none)

My take - coming up.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:37:01 PM PST

PP Reaction (none)

PM candidate speaking for PP, just called PSOE congratulating for victory. Recognizes and accepts results. Election marked by bombing, Spanish participation was eloquent and expressive reaction.
Electoral results require exercise of reassessment of losing national parties. National priority must remain defeating terrorism. PP remains committed to this . . . More

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:40:35 PM PST

[ Parent ]

MORE (none)

Recounting accomplishments of Aznar government. More praise for Aznar etc.
Now Aznar.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:42:34 PM PST

[ Parent ]

CORRECTION (none)

No reaction from Aznar.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:43:45 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Fox News spin (4.00)

On Fox right now, they're reporting, "If you own stocks in Spain, expect them to take a 20% hit by the end of the month." "Analyst" Scott Bleier continues, explaining that Spain was poor under the 50 years of Franco and that's the sort of socialism they'll be going back to. Scott is CEO at a big investment firm, so he knows these things. First, Scott, try 40 years of Franco. Next we come to the more serious issue of how it's the PP, not the PSOE, who are the direct heirs to Francoism. I swear, if you watch Fox, you know less than if you never watch the news.
But nothing deters them from a jaunty segment title with a pop culture reference: "The Change in Spain"
As I'm typing: "It seems the terrorists have achieved their goal of changing the government."

by Draco on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:42:14 PM PST

Franco a socialist? (none)

Yeah, Mr. Bleier needs to study a little more history, methinks...

by markdonelson on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:47:09 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Exactly! (none)

You need to confront them and defy them every time they pull this liar switcharoo stuff. It is just that they do it all the time. Fox News is literally driving people who watch it insane.

by MediaFreeze on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 10:15:31 PM PST

[ Parent ]

insane is apt (none)

You're right on with that one. I've lost access to the hearts of several loved ones whose trusting nature's have been filled with the hateful bile put forth by the right wing propaganda channels. It makes me sad (and furious and determined) to have to live my only life with a manipulated gap between myself and the better instincts's of my parents, siblings, acquaintances...

by mkinny on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 11:08:40 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Of course (none)

we could speculate all day, but did you see the outpouring of people in the streets in memorial of the event? Yes, the gov trying to pretend it was ETA inflamed people even more, but their real fury was with the bombing itself. If Anzar had come out the first night and said, "We think it's AQ and we will not stand for such terrorism!" he'd still be toast.

by lapis on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:43:26 PM PST
Good update, Kos (3.00)

I fully understand why Spanish voters would reject Aznar's party, post-Iraq war. But the fact that this can be painted as a "victory for al-Qaeda" leaves me cold. It looks for all the world like Spanish voters did what the bombers wanted.

by daveweigel on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:44:14 PM PST

I don't buy that... (none)

Most of the rest of world is more sophisticated than FOX News veiwers.
The bombers wanted to punish Spain for supporting Bush's war.
The voters wanted to punish their right wing government for getting them into this mess.
Most objective observers who aren't swimming in spin, can recognize the difference.

by SW on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:49:20 PM PST

[ Parent ]
God forbid (none)

God forbid the Spanish people do the right thing, despite how it might look to other people.

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:52:27 PM PST

[ Parent ]
What makes you think (none)

Aznar's defeat is what the bombers wanted? The bombers want to reinforce Bush's coalition and his policy of worldwide beligerancy. That policy fuels the engine of polarization that propels the Madrid bomber's cause.

by CSTAR on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:54:50 PM PST

[ Parent ]
I think it's fair to say, for better or worse... (1.75)

That the voters did do what Al-Qaeda wanted. That doesn't make it the right or wrong thing to do, but it's evident that that's how it happened.
Ah well, nothing we can do about it.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:56:44 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Are you nuts? (none)

The PS victory today is no victory for Al Quada nor for international terrorism. Rather, it is a victory for decency and peace. Terrorists will rest no easier; the same can be said for a Kerry victory this November.
The PS victory was a repudiation of the far-right neo-facist policies of Anzar and Bush. The Spanish voters asked themselves a simple question: would we have been bombed if we had not backed Bush in his foolish, non-terror-fighting war in Iraq? The answer is no.
If I were Bush, I would be scard.

by daninoah on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:04:27 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Duh (4.00)

And by invading Iraq, the Bush admin did what al-Quaeda wanted.

by Felix Deutsch on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 11:00:57 PM PST

[ Parent ]
For Better (none)

That the voters did do what Al-Qaeda wanted. That doesn't make it the right or wrong thing to do, but it's evident that that's how it happened.
Had the voters done what Al-Qaeda desired, they would have returned Aznar's PP to power. If not for the ideological rhetoric, organizational incompetence, and strategic blunderings of Messrs. Bush, Blair and Aznar, AQ would be much worse off today. Spanish voters seemed to recognize something the vacuous blowhards on Fox News do not, the war to make America and Europe safer from terrorists is not to be fought in the ghettos of Iraq, but rather in the shadows of Madrid, Berlin, London, Vienna, Rome, NYC, Detroit, etc! Involving Spanish personnel in an Iraqi war did nothing to make the world, or Spain safer from Bin Ladenism, 11-M is the ultimate negation of that thesis. Today's result is a referendum on the national security policies of Aznar's ruling party, it's also a repudiation of those leaders who think they can defy the popular wishes of their electorates without consequence. Tony Blair and Silvio Berlusconi better take note.

by Robert Drake on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 02:12:57 AM PST

[ Parent ]

I don't understand (4.00)

how the people in the right are now bitching and moaning that "This is what the terroists wanted!", when the CONVENTIONAL WISDOM until today that an attack close to an election would help incumbents. Thus, unless terrorists have some knowledge of politics and a public's reaction to an attack that everyone else didn't have, then the conclusion would be that the terrorists expected an attack to ASSURE a victory by the PP. They might have miscalculated here, in a big way. Now they'll have a Spanish government that actually is interested in hunting them down, instead of pissing away resources in Iraq.

President Bush: Times of change, instead of leadership.

by emjaycue on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:54:46 PM PST

[ Parent ]

That's US CW (none)

when the CONVENTIONAL WISDOM until today that an attack close to an election would help incumbents.
For the record: That's not the conventional wisdom here in Europe.
Most European pundits said the attack would help the opposition.
But what really brought the Spanish government down, was Aznar's trying to blame ETA until after the election. It was voters' rejection of the spin.

by PoliticGeek Pro on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 06:45:39 AM PST

[ Parent ]

Demonize is just about right (4.00)

The guest on Fox basically said Spain is going in the dumps. Europe will become a Muslim loving continent. I just about threw up. I bet 90% of the Fox viewers probably are thinking the red commies took over Spain today.

by lncolnpk on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:46:54 PM PST
PSOE Head (none)

Starts victory speech with moment of prayer for victims of bombing. Very good.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:53:33 PM PST

First priority (none)

Defeating terrorism. Will work with all parties towards this goal.
Aside - this guy Zapatero has Kerry-like charisma, a good omen no?

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:56:53 PM PST

[ Parent ]
For those with no TV (none)

you can get this on Radio Exterior de Espana shortwave 15110 KHz or online with real audio at http://www.rtve.es/rne/ree/

by CSTAR on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:00:27 PM PST

[ Parent ]
According to CNN this morning (none)

The PSOE had already promised in the campaign to withdraw troops from Iraq.
By voting out Aznar, for whatever reason, the Spanish already knew that their people were coming home.
AQ had planned to bomb Madrid for a long time, you don't pull an operation like that out of your hat. I suspect they assumed that Aznar would blame them and Spaniards would have the "Iraq war wrong" message reinforced. When he went instead straight to the ETA tack, they were forced to make it plain. What they got, thanks to the criminal mind of the Bush lovers, was a double whammy; not only the Iraq thing, but also the "Aznar makes political capital out of misery and death" thing.

"Till the last dog dies"

by Deep Dark on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:24:04 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Fox is amazing (none)

"War in Iraq" is identified as "War on Terror," as in "Spanish people rejected government's support of the War on Terror."
Also, "expert" identified Franco as a socialist. This is pretty amazing stuff.
"All the news, fair and balanced."

Kerriatric Tammany Democrat and proud of it!

by John R on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:55:17 PM PST

John, How did you not... (none)

throw up after watching that. I posted just about the same thing just above you.

by lncolnpk on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:02:46 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Some of the signs in Spain on Saturday (none)

Le Monde reports the following signs appearing in Spain on Saturday.
It's your wars, it's our deaths.
Aznar, because of you, we are paying everything.
I like the first one a lot.

In our minds, Bush is beating Kerry by 10 points. Kos.

by MoDem on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:57:43 PM PST
94% (none)

PSOE - 163, PP 149, 42.7%, PP - 37.6%

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:58:47 PM PST

Hmm. (none)

This has been tightening with every update. PSOE started up about 21 seats and now it's down to 14

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:09:30 PM PST

[ Parent ]

A bit (none)

butr its up to 96% reporting and is holding between 163-64 for PSOE and 148-49 for PP.
It's a done deal.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:12:47 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Yeah (none)

Yeah, it is a done deal, but I've been irked looking at the projected margin of victory shrink every time it's been updated.

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:14:57 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Will come down to the wire (none)

With 96.32% of the votes counted, a PSOE/IU/ERC coalition would have 176 seats, the bare minimum for a majority. Let's hope they hold on to it.

by Firefly on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:20:16 PM PST

[ Parent ]

How many other parties are there? (none)

Could the PP conceivably put together a minority coalition?

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:26:11 PM PST

[ Parent ]

No (none)

I'd say that part of the equation is a done deal. At worst, a unity government would have to be formed.

by Firefly on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:28:22 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Other parties (none)

El Pais lists the following other parties as also winning seats:
CiU
ERC
EAJ-PNV
IU
CC
BNG
CHA
EA
Na-Bai
Who are these parties? And, other than ERC and IU, who I understand are the left-wing parties, and CiU, who I understand is right-wing, where do they stand?
On another note, it looks like PP got absolutely wiped in an election in Andalusia, less than 30% of the vote. Any idea on the context of that?

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:31:19 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Rundown (4.00)

Go here for a rundown of the parties. It's at the very bottom of the page.

by Firefly on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:48:27 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Virtually impossinle (none)

The PSOE and its alliance partner willbe no more than a vote or two short.
BTW, here's some irony, Batasuna has one rep. Can you imagine fighting for Batasuna's vote to get the majority?

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:30:26 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Boy (none)

you're like me, watching every blink of the board.
Remember the awful night of the 2000 election? You must have stayed up all night too.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:21:52 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Batasuna (none)

Which abbreviation are they? And I thought Anzar made them illegal?

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:34:51 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Well not offically (none)

Batasuna by name, but the Batasuna doppelganger.
I'll get you the name of the party, but they have 1 rep.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:37:45 PM PST

[ Parent ]

EA I think (none)

but let me double check before I unintentionally libel somebody.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:45:48 PM PST

[ Parent ]

I going to have to retract for now (none)

Can't pin down the facts here.
My statement was based on what I thought I heard on TVE, but, let me retract for now.

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:04:35 PM PST

[ Parent ]

I'm seeing (none)

I found EA stands for Eusko Alkartasuna, so they are Basque anyway.

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:16:15 PM PST

[ Parent ]

At 99.44% in (none)

With 99.44% in, it's back up to 164-148, and the CiU back down to 10.

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:18:10 PM PST

[ Parent ]

No Pasaran! (4.00)

This is the first step in the Reconquista of our planet from the grips of the fascist pigs ruling now the US and various allied countries. Hopefully, the Berlusconi/Fini/Bossi triumvirate will go down soon, and Blair will be replaced by a real Labour PM. Though the ultimate goal is to get the Bushists out of the WH and straight to Gitmo.
(I mean, if the uber-morons from Fox and LGF can spout their nonsense, I can indulge with a bit of over-enthusiasm too)

by Clueless Joe on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 06:59:22 PM PST

Gitmo? (none)

...Okay.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:06:49 PM PST

[ Parent ]
You just report (none)

we decide. Looks fair and balanced to me.

by badger on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:05:57 PM PST

[ Parent ]

They PP party lied (none)

Maybe it wasn't the bombing that lost the election for the conservatives. Maybe it was the disinformation about who actually committed the bombings. Kind of like another conservative party that lied about weapons of mass destruction. I'd like think Aznar and his allies got drilled for not telling the truth.

by Northern Pike on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:02:45 PM PST

You'd like to think that... (1.00)

But all evidence suggests that's not the case. I know, it makes a pretty story for our fight against the Republicans, but it's so unlikely to be the true reason why events happened as they did that repeating it just gives us an echo chamber effect.

<3, Joe

by Superduperficial on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:11:05 PM PST

[ Parent ]

What evidence? (none)

You have provided none.

by Firefly on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:16:21 PM PST

[ Parent ]

It's Hard... (none)

...to come up with evidence when you make 26 posts in two hours, and they're the first 26 posts you've ever submitted on Daily Kos.
Proceed past that bridge with caution...you don't know what lives below it.

by Dana Houle on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:33:25 PM PST

[ Parent ]

how to recognize a troll (none)

no kidding, look at his comments on healthcare and capitalism on the other thread (the thread originally about Powell's response- scroll down to near the bottome).

by JillR on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:38:25 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Yeah... (none)

...that's why I made that comment. That, and the obstinance.
Either a troll, or he just finished his first semester of college.

by Dana Houle on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:40:48 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Turnout (none)

The statistic from the Spanish election that sticks out for me is the turnout, 76%, 8% better than in 2000.
If only.

by postit on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:08:29 PM PST
Very nervous (none)

How will the US voters respond when al Qaeda bombs us three days before our election?

"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" - Salvor Hardin

by Zackpunk on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:09:21 PM PST

You won't have to find out (1.50)

You won't have to find out now that Bush sees it didn't work in Spain.

by DavidByron on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:44:00 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Huh? (none)

Are you saying Bush is behind the Madrid bombings? I don't get it.

"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" - Salvor Hardin

by Zackpunk on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:58:14 PM PST

[ Parent ]

AP reports that one of the suspects is linked... (none)

to a figure in the 9/11 bombings.
AP: Madrid Suspect Linked to 9/11 Figure
All hell is about to break loose, I conservatively predict.

Moving the Goalposts: A group blog for sufferers of liberal post-concussion syndrome

by Issa on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:16:32 PM PST
Who knows which thread to place these ... (none)

...updates? I'll put this one here:
The names of the five men arrested yesterday have been released. They are:
Jamal Zougam, born in Tangier in 1973;
Mohamed Bekkali, born in Tetuan in 1972, a mechanic;
Mohamed Cahoui, born in Tanger in 1969, a laborer.
The two Indians arrested are Vinay Kohly and Suresh Kumar.
Cahoui may be linked to a phone call intercepted in August, 2001. El Pais reports that two suspected members of Al Qaeda, Abdulak al Magrebi and Emad Eddin Barakat Yarkas spoke on the phone about getting in touch with "Mohamed Cahaoui de Tangier." Barakat Yarkas, who was indicted in September, 2003, is widely believed to have been chief of the Al Qaeda cell in Spain at the time of the 9-11 attack.

"All those people who hate America love Michael Moore." - Bill O'Reilly

by Meteor Blades on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:16:36 PM PST

The plot thickens considerably (none)

This would make Al Queda the prime suspect.
Now what?

by Armando on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:24:42 PM PST

[ Parent ]
This information was put out early this morning (none)

and it raced across the spanish internet.
That one of the people rounded up on Friday was listed as an AlQaeda linked operative even as the Interior Minister was saying ETA was, I think, the last straw.

Symphony X - Restoring the Classical Conversation

by Stirling Newberry on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:32:09 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Rambling thoughts on Spain (none)

International affairs, beyond EU that is, has rarely been a factor in Spanish elections. That is one reason the outgoing government felt free to ignore the views of 90% of the public and supported Bush in Iraq. I would expect to see the new socialist government put substantial effort into getting those responsible. Wouldn't it be nice if they caught OBL in the effort.

eschew obfuscation

by jimG on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:36:54 PM PST
Sharp Contrast (4.00)

Contrast the Spanish response to 11-M to the US response to 9-11...
Demonstrations asking for peace. not bloodlust and desire for mindless revenge...
A population demanding to know the truth behind the political manipulations of its government, instead of tolerating the lies and dissimulations of BushCo and the still-unanswered questions about 9/11...
A population not afraid to throw out its flawed leaders, instead of flocking mindlessly to and rallying idiotically behind an incompetent president...
Arriba la España!

by Lupin on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:39:57 PM PST

Official response to 9/11 (none)

Go shopping!

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:44:29 PM PST

[ Parent ]
Response (none)

I disagree, here in NYC, demonstrations, gatherings & rallies of a quiet sort started the Friday after that terrible Tuesday -- very like in Spain. More searching, calling for peace...Union Square was the epicenter. It's when the Not in Our Name movement started.
As it didn't fit into the official narrative, it didn't get much media play, but it was pretty widespread here and very powerful.

by LeislerNYC on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:26:06 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Of course some people did follow the same curve... (none)

...here in the US as others in Spain have endorsed Bush's lunatic policies, as well, I'm sure, but in the end I was referring to the resultant majority and course of action. Here we're the minority; over there we'd be the majority.

by Lupin on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 10:36:05 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Tsunamis happen. (none)

Here on civil society's narrow isthmus, you never know which side they're coming from ... or when.

by RonK Seattle on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 07:59:52 PM PST
Interesting media coverage (none)

Fox hasn't headlined it.
Everyone else has, and second-lined the attack on the Israelis.

by Ptolemy on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:01:24 PM PST
Putting aside partisan advantages, (none)

becuase nobody knows if these results will have any impact on the US elections, my guess is not much.
But when I try to look at this realistically, without spin, it seems like a huge win for Al-Queda. They have proven to themselves that they can influence democratic elections. Whether the spaniard's thinking was more complicated or if this is a good political turn for Spain doesn't matter, it's obvious that terrorism made a big difference.
If nothing else this gives the terrorists more confidence.
Scary stuff.
But, thinking about this realistically again, I have to think that Bush has been a terrible leader in this global war on terror. After 9-11 the world was united and a true leader could have used that to civilization's advantage to REALLY put a hurting on the terrorists. But unfourtunately Bush is a divider not a uniter, so here we are in a complicated scary world.

GWB: The buck stops across the street and down a coupla blocks...

by permanentE on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 08:15:28 PM PST

Not sure what to think... (none)

Well, the flurry of this thread has subsided, but I want to make a final comment: At the risk of bringing down the value of your post, I have to say I am blown away by many of the people on this board who are much more knowledgeable about the situation in Spain than I am, and who absolutely refute the notion that AQ had anything to do with the election results. A number of clearly well respected members here call the notion Nonsense. I do not get it.
I realize the Spanish people were lied to, and I believe that the election was tightening even before the bombing, but they were furious about the attacks themselves. Despite nearly everyone in the country hating PP for helping the US in Iraq, PP was still projected to win before the bombings. I do not understand why believing the upheaval in the election is a battle win for AQ is somehow being ignorant and playing into the hands of the Right. I agree that we do not know AQ wanted PP out, specifically, but surely creating mayhem in the electoral process was a goal, and an achieved one. Is the belief that AQ wanted to create electoral chaos and did create electoral chaos so unreasonable and ignorant?

by lapis on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:11:47 PM PST

[ Parent ]

PP losing = chaos? (none)

Why?

The most merciful thing in the world . . . is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H. P. Lovecraft

by Cheez Whiz on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:15:25 PM PST

[ Parent ]
It was a great win for AQ (none)

And they gained greatly. They just peeled off an ally of the USA, and we don't have many left. They are moving to isolate us in the world, just as they are trying to do in Iraq. Divide and conquor (dyslexia - sorry), Ceasar's stratagie.
If there is a "war on terror" and Bush and Osama were opposing Generals, what grade would you give each?
I would give
Osama A+
Bush d-
For more on this check out my diary "Al-Queda is winning the war on terror". Should be on the second page, at least it was at 7:30 EST. Sorry, I don't know how to post the link.

by PLS on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:31:02 PM PST

[ Parent ]

AQ and ther Spanish election (none)

It all depends on what you think Al-Qaeda actually wanted to have happen in the election. The conventional wisdom is that AQ wants to defeat Aznar who is seen to be very pro-US. But, I see it differently. AQ WANTS a massive clash of civilizations. They want rightwing militants to take power all over the western world so that this great clash of civilizations can happen sooner rather than later. AQ probably thought that the bombing would help the PP win. The fact that a more moderate PSOE won may actually be a backfiring of Al-Qaeda's strategy!!

Smug Canadian who hates Bush

by CanuckObserver on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:27:22 PM PST

[ Parent ]

US versus the World (none)

What could be more destablizing than having Bush and Republicans running the U.S. and alienated from the rest of the Western world? That would seem to play into Al Qaeda's hands. Could they try something similar in the U.S. before our election, knowing that it would be likely to bolster Bush's fortunes?

by KeithH on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 10:16:23 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Misconceptions (4.00)

As much as I applaud PSOE's victory (and hate how people seem to hear the word 'socialist' in its name and conclude that it is something other than a mainstream European party, and an especially decent and good one at that) I also dislike how the PP are being demonized here. Put the PP in American politics and you have centrist Democrats, maybe even a bit farther left than that. In the past decade and a half the PP, and Aznar in particular, has done a great job remodeling the party away from the Francoist detritus that originally composed it, and since the mid-90's (whenever it was Aznar got elected) they've presided over some impressive economic growth and have done very little in the way of the shadow-fascist deception that people seem to think they've done. The PP is respectable, decent, and a good thing for Spanish democracy. Aznar supported Bush not as a covert rightist bonding ritual, but for the same reasons Blair did: some dreamy hope of a democratic middle east, some shoddy risk-benefit calculations, some tired vision of the Atlantic Alliance.
That said, I'd still vote for PSOE.

by Xaphoo on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:08:29 PM PST
UK Reaction (none)

Minister Peter Hain lost no time in declaring: "There's no change in the coalition."
Yeah, right.

by paper tigress on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:29:38 PM PST
A Message from Spain (none)

After the attacks I emailed friends in Spain and received this back from a pretty non-political friend who lives in Andalusia:
Thank you so much for your warm, caring message.
Of course, everyone here is remembering 09/11. I couldn´t sleep on Thrusday
night and I joined the demonstration in Málaga yesterday, I felt so sad. Why
so many innocent people: workers, students, immigrants, had to die? They
should have bombed Aznar´s house, who keeps insisting, it was ETA, and not
Arab groups the responsible ones. But, of course, he never takes the train
to work ... He took us into the war in Iraq, that no one wanted, and if
these bombings are Al-Qaeda´s then he´s in for real trouble. We have general
elections tomorrow, let´s see what happens.

by LeislerNYC on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 09:30:04 PM PST
Bets on BushCo Spin? (none)

How about:
The majority of spaniards voted against the PSOE. This is a clear message of support for Spain's role in the coalition.
Of course it proves no such thing. But by the time the press figures this out, the commercial break has started and people are flipping channels.

by CSTAR on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 10:16:07 PM PST
It's been said before , but... (4.00)

It was a wierd freak show the last couple days with regard to the ETA vs. Al Qaeda "controversy." First, the Spanish government prematurely blaims ETA, giving everyone cause for suspicion that they "wanted" to blaim ETA. Then, as it is becoming clear that it was probably Al Qaeda, they try to maintain the myth that they "haven't determined yet, confirming everyones suspicions. Then the three stooges Rice, Rumsfeld and Powell (all of whom have blaimed Al Qaeda for everything including working with Saddam in Iraq) come out on American TV and say the it is way to early to make the call. Rumsfeld said something to the effect that many times with terrorist activity it seems like one thing but turns out to be something other (whatever that means). In effect they all implied it "very well could be ETA." What does this do? It makes it clear to every Spaniard that Washington is coordinating the "blaim ETA" program, because they have concluded that "it is better for the PP if it was ETA." The Spanish people see through this cynical disregard for the truth at a time of real national tragedy (not to mention getting sucked into the Iraq war) and vote the PP out!
Did it happen in the last three days? No! Was the performance of the last three days indicative of why this deceitful government was rejected? Yes!

by MediaFreeze on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 10:35:36 PM PST

Is Rumsfeld... (none)

The master of talking and yet saying absolutely nothing, or what?
My favorite quote from him was (paraphrased, but not much): There are known knowns. Things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. Things we know that we don't know. Then there are unknown unknowns. Things we don't know that we don't know.
The guy is just so full of shit. He doesn't just spew hot air, it's raw sewage. I think he's probably the dumbest defense secretary we've had in the past fifty years.

Kerry Express 2004- Bridge Out Ahead!

by Asak on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:02:50 AM PST

[ Parent ]

Of All the Things He has said (none)

the known knowns at least makes a redundant kind of sense.
What he missed however is the other factor, "the things we know, that just ain't so". They're the ones that bite your ass every time.

"Till the last dog dies"

by Deep Dark on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 06:52:59 AM PST

[ Parent ]
Rummy (none)

...wrote the book on obfuscation. Didn't sell well, of course: no one could understand a word of it.

by Scott in Montreal on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:23:15 PM PST

[ Parent ]

What happens next is crucial (none)

Now comes the time for PP to prove to spain and the world that you do not have to be conservative to fight terrorism.
PP needs to come out and say they will continue to work with the international community to track down, prosecute, and disarm terrorists everywhere. Acknowledge that the terrorists are a global problem. If they can do that, then it will become safer for Americans and the world to believe that Kerry would also be a better steward of fighting terrorism. (Well OK, the world already believes that, not about those Americans.)
Let the R's spin, but if I were Kerry, I would call Clinton, Sandy Berger, anyone who has any knowledge of the incoming PP people, and quietly, secretly let them know that fighting terrorism is indeed important. They can't just back away from the this fight with Osama. Because what happens now in Spain as they start to further investigate the terrorists must be seen as an open book. All secrets are to be held up to the light.
ALL SECRETS, including those secrets between Asner and Bush, flushed out into the open.

by GrandmaJ on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 11:31:18 PM PST

After reading what I just wrote (none)

This post sounds arrogant and know it all. I apologize. I don't ususaly sound like I rule the world. Although my children used to say I did. the theory of the post is O>K>, but needs to be rephrased in a more human tone. Lesson number 492 learned from kos.

by GrandmaJ on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 11:36:50 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Not arrogant, but fundamentally inaccurate (none)

The PP lost, and the PSOE won. Libertarian blogs state that there will be an election for the European Parliament in a few months and are planning to prepare for it.
<BROKEN-RECORD>
AI still don't think Aznar loved us. He needed some help keeping France and Germany from dominating the EU. He joins the War on Iraq, we give him a great big free-trade stick to wield against France and Germany.
</BROKEN-RECORD>
Like it or not, demonstrators were in the streets claiming that Spain would not have been bombed had it not joined the US in Iraq. The vote swung several points toward the PSOE after the elections.
There is also the argument that PP played politics first with the bombing, PSOE played politics last, and playing last wins.

by Yamaneko on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 12:07:54 AM PST

[ Parent ]

The war in Iraq != war on terrorism (none)

They shouldn't have been in Iraq. The people were right. I doubt they'd have been attacked if they had not joined the "coalition". This was probably one of the arguments not to invade Iraq, so why is it political to point out the consequences. Invading Iraq has done nothing to limit terrorists, all it did was stir up a hornets nest and generate more support for AQ.

Kerry Express 2004- Bridge Out Ahead!

by Asak on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:05:42 AM PST

[ Parent ]

PP is the outgoing administration (4.00)

PSOE (the Socialists) is the incoming administration.
So, assuming you mean PSOE when you say PP, this is what the the party leader and incoming P.M. Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero had to say in his victory speech:
"My immediate priority will be to fight terrorism, and the first thing I will do tomorrow -- Monday -- will be to search for the unity of the political forces to concentrate all of our efforts in that fight."
The Spanish people are not backing down from the fight against terrorism. They just think their leaders have not been doing a good job at it.

by DaveOinSF on Sun Mar 14, 2004 at 11:55:05 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Yes, you are right. (none)

thanks for stating what I "meant" to say. And I was glad to hear about their speech on continuing to fight terrorism. that is indeed where all the world should be focusing their attention. Or most of it anyway.

by GrandmaJ on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:57:31 AM PST

[ Parent ]

Not Socialism as in Communism? (none)

Since when has socialism ever equalled communism?

I have dreamed a dream, and now that dream has gone from me. - Nebuchadnezzar

by Marius on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 12:30:57 AM PST

I agree... (none)

That was a dumb comment to make on the main page.

Kerry Express 2004- Bridge Out Ahead!

by Asak on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:08:37 AM PST

[ Parent ]
Actually (none)

for Marx and Engels communism represented the only realistic, "scientific," non-utopian form of socialism. All else was reformist claptrap. And that Marx guy was pretty influential. Back in my trotskyist days, I believed that.

Kerriatric Tammany Democrat and proud of it!

by John R on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:22:14 AM PST

[ Parent ]

Victoria Socialista (4.00)

I want to start off by expressing how moved I am in people's interest and reactions in regards to the elections in Spain.
As a Spaniard, I am extremely happy with the victory to-day by the PSOE and Jose Luis Rodgriguez-Zapatero. The PSOE was in the shadows for many years after the legendary Socialist Prime Minister Felipe Gonzalez retired from politics in 1997. During his presidency Spain became part of Europe, something the PP and Jose Maria Aznar basically put an end to. Now with J.L. Rodriguez-Zapatero, Spain will no longer be a puppet on the string held by G.W. Bush and Co.
Rodriguez-Zapatero's goal is to bring Spain back into the center of Europe where it belongs. Spain is European, not American. My family have been members of the PSOE since the beginning. My grandfather was in the Republican Army during the Spanish Civil War and was exiled to Argentina after Franco gained control over Spain. The victory in 1982 by Gonzalez and the PSOE restored his faith in Spanish politics, and I'm sure that if he were here to-day he would be out on the streets with the rest of Spain rejoicing in this long-awaited victory. Spain has been wanting change for many years, they have been discontent w/ the PP's stances on foreign affairs, especially the Iraq War. We have taken back La Moncloa (equivalent to the White House in U.S) and we have taken back the Cortes. A victory today for the socialist party was a vote for Change, a vote for Peace and Justice! PM Jose Maria Aznar was a man who was respected throughout Spain, but his major downfall came for his involvement in The war against terror. His legacy will be that and not Spain's standing Economy. Many fear that this Change in Gov't will end Spain's War against terror. That is false! Rodriguez-Zapatero has insisted that Spain will always fight against terrorism, but not in un-just, il-legal wars. He vows to take troops out of Iraq by June if the U.N. is not involved in the 'reconstruction'. Although and Enlish spokesperson for Blair's party says Spain is still in the "coalition of the willing", I have to say that statement is erroneous. The PSOE still remain Anti-war and President Bush, has lost his alliance on this issue.
I was a bit disturbed by John Kerry's apathetic response to this huge victory in Spain. I thought he would have been more vocal about expressing his ideas on the matter. I understand the word socialist brings a chill down the spines of many Americans, but I belive that we have to become more educated in politics from around hte world. The Socialist in Spain or France, Germany and most European nations are equivalent to the Liberals of the U.S. Rodriguez-Zapatero is more mainstream, he'd be compared to the majority of democrats in the United States' political world. There is a stigma which the word socialist carries and it's a stigma I was hoping John Kerry would talk about and try to make americans understand what that word ACTUALLY means, and not its confusion with the word communist. The slogan for Rodriguez-Zapatero's candidacy was "Merecemos una Espana Mejor" ("We Deserve a Better Spain"). And Spain got just that! This victory is bitter-sweet, it reminds us of how beautiful democracy is and yet the sadness due those who hate democracy and how their anti-democratic actions inflict pain and suffering to the people of Spain and the world. On this day Spaniards went out and voted in record numbers and showed that Spain loves democracy, it reminds us of those 40 years which Franco took democracy from the Spanish people, and that we will not let the actions of those who wish to destroy our democratic principles bring us down. The Spanish people showed their strength and determination and the people won! Spain will move forward as it always has. AUPA PSOE
AUPA JOSE LUIS RODRIGUEZ-ZAPATER0
AUPA ESPANA

by GustavusX on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 02:50:05 AM PST

It is not Sen. Kerry's place (none)

to express preferences in the elections of other countries. Indeed, given the U.S.'s history with regard to intervention in foreign countries, and particularly, foreign elections, it is admirable that Sen. Kerry refrained from further comment.
It is for us to celebrate the victory, and mostly, of course, for you.
I do want to congratulate you but also express the hope that the PSOE does not make the same mistakes that marred the end of Gonzalez's tenure.

by Armando on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 11:00:59 AM PST

[ Parent ]

Divorce Court (none)

Carmen is married to Jose. Jose's friend George gets punched in the nose by Osama. George chases after Osama but can't catch him, so he decides to go after a guy of the same ethnicity, kick his ass and burn down his house instead. George tries to form a lynch mob, but of all his friends, the only ones who'll go are Jose, Tony and a couple of Eastern supers who are doing it for tip money. When Carmen hears Jose is going, she calls him an idiot and begs him not to go. But he goes anyway. And while Jose is away, Osama breaks into his house, tears the place apart and run off. Is Carmen right to change the locks and divorce him?

<"Do not seek the treasure!" >

by moon in the house of moe on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 05:26:08 AM PST
Part 2 (none)

You bet your ass. Yes.

<"Do not seek the treasure!" >

by moon in the house of moe on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 05:31:46 AM PST
...and (none)

...I hope we can have our own divorce in November.

<"Do not seek the treasure!" >

by moon in the house of moe on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 05:34:57 AM PST
My Silly Analogy (none)

...was done as an attempt to try and understand how anyone could have anything but complete admiration for the Spanish people for voting out the PP.
the invasion of Iraq was a great crime by Bush and co. founded on lies, and I fervently hope to see him kicked out of office for it. I could wish no less for the people of Spain.

<"Do not seek the treasure!" >

by moon in the house of moe on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 05:53:51 AM PST
Socialism means socialism (3.00)

Communism means communism.
Apparently, some people can't read. And have a very limited knowledge of history, otherwise UK, France and Germany would've joined the USSR side in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s, with their socialist govts.
It'll be interesting to see what will be the new Spanish position on the proposed UE constitution - Spain and Poland having been the 2 main opponents, partly due to Washington's orders imho, partly due to genuine concernes, partly due to the overinflated egos of their respective leaders.

by Clueless Joe on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 05:54:09 AM PST
wikipedia article on bombing (none)

For those wanting an overview of the bombing, the Wikipedia coverage is astonishingly good and is constantly being updated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_11%2C_2004_Madrid_attacks

by clyde on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 07:45:46 AM PST

oops, better link (none)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_11%2C_2004_Madrid_attacks

by clyde on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 07:46:19 AM PST

[ Parent ]

When does the fun begin? (none)

Anyone know when Spain's newly elected officials take office? None of the news coverage has answered this question for me.

by snorfbat on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 09:17:44 AM PST
Spain could make a dangerous mistake (1.50)

By withdrawing it's forces from Iraq, Spain sends the Islamofascists a dangerous message. Simply, kill us and we'll quit.
This amounts to meeting kidnappers' demands after they have killed the hostages. Even Le Monde has seen through this act the true face and danger of Islamofascism.
By withdrawing its forces from Iraq, Spain retreats from a role that all of the nations of Europe should be embracing - creating a free, democratic Iraq. Sticking their heads in the sand is not a solution to Iraq whether they agree with the previous government's policies or not. Not even Howard Dean was foolish enough to advocate withdrawing from Iraq until the work was done (in fact, Dean was on Meet the Press warning against a premature withdrawl of forces based on political considerations).
Regardless of the international security and human rights concerns currently on the table in Iraq, Spain's decision to submit to the will of the terrorists will only lead to more bloodshed.

"You play to win the game." - Herm Edwards

by dreadopus on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 12:52:45 PM PST

You Sound Like Condi! (none)

Are you really Condi?
Actually, damn the consequences Spain just sent Bush a middle finger in an act of pure political contempt for dishonest warmongering. Or is it a thumb in the teeth? I forget how they say FU over there.

by easong on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 01:40:05 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Taking sides (none)

Does it mean enough to you to stick the middle finger to Bush that you'd welcome Al Qaeda successfully influencing the results of a democratic election through terror?
This will be the first test of the left to prove that they can take the war on terror seriously. You sure as hell don't.

"You play to win the game." - Herm Edwards

by dreadopus on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 02:34:18 PM PST

[ Parent ]
not to mention... (none)

the fact that Spain didn't have a dog in this fight, and jumped in to help on Bush's ill-advised little war for, what? Political favors? Opportunities for Spanish contractors to feed at the taxpayers trough? Is that worth 200 dead?
(Don't ask Rummy that question, hard to tell what his cutoff point for "Is it worth it?" is...)

by snookybeh on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 03:55:52 PM PST

[ Parent ]

No dog in this fight? (none)

Are you that naive? Every western democracy has a dog in this fight. What is your recommendation to the threat of Islamofascism appeasement, concilliation, surrender?
Are you going to suggest that the people who died on Mar 11 were not innocent victims because the actions of their government made them legitimate targets?
Seriously, do you have a position on Islamofascism or are you content to sit back and regurgitate the argument that anything that opposes American hegemony is good?

"You play to win the game." - Herm Edwards

by dreadopus on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 04:02:44 PM PST

[ Parent ]

thanks genius (none)

If people like you ruled, we'd still be unloading bodybags from Vietnam.........

by iconoclast on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 02:32:05 PM PST

[ Parent ]

Why is that iconoclast? (none)

Care to tell me what good you see in terrorists dictating policy to democratic nations?

"You play to win the game." - Herm Edwards

by dreadopus on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 02:35:48 PM PST

[ Parent ]

I don't see it (none)

as terrorists dictating policy - I see it as the people of Spain dictating the policy of their own nation. Aznar got in bed w/ Bush against all democratic principles and the will of an overwhelming majority of his own people. And he paid the price. And speaking of messages what message does it send to Iraq that neither the occupation nor the coalition that was used to achieve it were themselves democratic in nature? If it looks like empire and smells like empire - it's probably empire.
If they can get you to ask the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers - Thomas Pynchon

by iconoclast on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 04:21:58 PM PST

[ Parent ]

You do realize (1.00)

That not all actions taken by democracies are popular at the time? That is the reason you have representative democracies and not direct democracy. For instance, do you believe popular will should carry the day on every issue facing our nation?
Furthermore, Aznar's government was on the road to victory before they bungled the terrorist attack aftermath. In effect, that would have ratified his policy in Iraq. The other shortcoming of your ridiculous conclusion is that there was a election (albeit not a peaceful one thanks to the Islamofascists) and there will be a peaceful change of power. So please don't lecture the nations of the West about not being democratic. We are having this discussion today purely because the West is democratic.
Your second point is inane left wing rhetoric, your first point is typically naive left wing denial.

"You play to win the game." - Herm Edwards

by dreadopus on Mon Mar 15, 2004 at 05:41:52 PM PST

[ Parent ]
(0 / 0)

by you on soon

If this is OK, click Post:

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