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This diary has been updated. CNN reports that two planes have crashed, separately, within four minutes of each other in Russia. They both originated from the same airport, and were both Tupolev-154's [Update: Other reports say one was a Tu-154, the other a Tu-134]. AP reports more than 100 people were aboard the two planes, while Reuters reports of witnesses seeing an explosion prior to one of the crashes. These events occured hours ago, yet the news is only breaking now. Moscow Times is silent, as are Pravda and ITAR-Tass, Russia's official news agency, despite other news outlets sourcing their information to Tass. RBC, Russia's business news channel with ties to CNBC and CNN, can be viewed live online, but their top news story is a Moscow bus stop bombing that occured earlier in the day. [Update: RBC is reporting the story now.]

Update: AP has posted a more comprehensive article, which confirms an investigation of terrorism as a possible cause and reports the official story on the second plane is now that it has gone missing. It has been missing for several hours. In addition, the first plane was headed to the Black Sea resort of Sochi, where president Vladimir Putin is vacationing. The article points out that Chechnya votes for a new president on Sunday to replace an assassinated pro-Russian president, and mentions Chechen rebels' involvement in previous terrorist acts in Russia.

Update: Runchadrun in the comments links to Airliners.net, which has a long thread on this.

Update: CNN reports none are believed to have survived the first plane crash. The other plane is still reported missing.

Update: There are multiple reports of a fire in Rostov that is believed to be of the second plane's wreckage.

Update: One plane's hijacking signal was activated, says an anonymous Russian official to Interfax, as reported in an AP breaking news alert.

Update: An AP alert quotes officials as saying the wreckage shows the near-simultaneous crashes were not terrorist-related. There's no explanation of how exactly they arrived at this speedy conclusion.

Originally posted to Michael D on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 02:54 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

153 comments | Permalink

  •  Can't find anything (none)
    Where were the planes coming down?  

    Did they hit anything?  

    MOMENT OF TRIUMPH

    by Grand Moff Texan on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 02:57:16 PM PDT

  •  Fox just said the same thing (none)
    A second large plane went down.

    by ECH on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:01:35 PM PDT

    •  Fox News: "Two Russian planes have (3.77)
      reported crashed today, and there is good reason to believe that the Democratic Party may be responsible. Shepard, what can you tell us."

      Shepard Smith: "Thanks. What we're hearing from Moscow is that leading Democrats, including John Kerry, and in collusion with notable Hollywood liberals, reportedly even Richard Gere, hired what they believed to be benevolent witches to cast diabolical spells to ensure that our commander in chief loses this election. As we all know though, all witches are in fact false gods and fronts for satan, and that all this black magic went awry, causing the two planes to crash. And by the way I'm not gay."

      "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." -W

      by spot on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 06:14:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  BBC sorta has it (none)
    bbcnews.com has a breaking news banner for the second plane but the brief report is only on the first plane. Hmmmmmm.

    -fink

    Go fink yourself!
    -Dick Cheney

    by fink on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:03:07 PM PDT

  •  I just heard on the radio (none)
    Another plane went down, I don't know if they mean the second plane or a third plane.

    by pcapone on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:05:37 PM PDT

  •  The chances of two or more planes going down (none)
    at the same time in the same country is very very very small.

    by ECH on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:10:10 PM PDT

  •  same airport; 4 minutes apart (none)
    The first plane disappeared from radar at 10:56 p.m. (2:56 p.m. ET), a ministry spokeswoman said.

    The Tupolev-134 had taken off from Moscow's Domodedovo Airport and was en route to Volgograd, in southern Russia.

    The second plane, a Tupolev-154, disappeared at 11 p.m. (3 p.m. ET) after having taken off from the same airport en route to Sochi in southern Russia, Ria Novosti reported.

    "The government is us, you and me." - TR

    by Chance the gardener on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:10:47 PM PDT

    •  asdf (none)
      that was from the CNN linked to above

      "The government is us, you and me." - TR

      by Chance the gardener on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:11:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sounds like some kind of attack (none)
      Either they tried to take over the planes or they placed bombs aboard.

      by ECH on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:12:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Southern Russia (none)
      The Caucasus?  Sigh.

      Give to the Daily KOS 8!

      by Aaron Gillies on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:01:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Coincidence (none)
      CBC Television briefly reported the news. The anchor mentioned the fact that Vladimir Putin is currently vacationing in Sochi. I don't know if this is relevant.

      by ClaudeB on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:19:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The "missing" plane was headed for (none)
        Sochi.  And, it has been "missing" for about two plus hours now.  

        by ohwilleke on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:28:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sibir (none)
          Yahoo News is reporting that they've found a fire about 600 miles south of Moscow.  That might be the second crash.  

          The first plane was a Volga-AviaExpress plane.  The second one was a Sibir, which I think is Siberian Airlines Can anyone read the Russian on this page.  This is the English Language website.

          by Inkan1969 on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 06:23:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  can't read Russian (none)
            but from the formatting it looks like the page is providing a phone number for family members of people who were on the flight.  I doubt if there is much detail on there. The English site says it is currently unavailable---I guess they are going to update that one with the same kind of information.

            by mimi9 on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 06:29:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Tentative translation (none)
            I've run the page mentioned above through the "translator" at http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr
            Official statement of the airline of Sibir' 25 August 2004.

            Airline of Sibir' it confirms with the sorrow that the aircraft of airline, which carried out on 24 August voyage № 1047 Moscow - Sochi, tentatively into 23.00 (time Moscow) propal from the radars of air-traffic controllers. Despite the fact that the details of incident are not thus far known, we can confirm that on board the aircraft were found 46 people, from them 8 crew members. Aircraft Tu-154 Ra -85556 is in operation since 1982, general film 30751 hours with the resource 37000 assigned is hour, the date of last innovation repair - August of 1993, film after innovation repair - 14876 is hour with interrepair the resource 15000 assigned it is hour. Last maintenance (form B- even) aircraft passed on 10 August, 2004. Airline of Sibir' it will allow further information in proportion to its entering. Contact telephone 8 800 200 000 7. Contact telephone for THE MEDIA - (3832) 22 19 31.

            by ClaudeB on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 06:46:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  my russki's rusty (4.00)
            but there doesn't seem to be too much there.  

            the gist is something about sibir airline flight #1047, moscow to sochi, arriving at 23.00 hours moscow time... next paragraph says something to the effect that there were 46 people aboard and (including?) 8 crew. then goes on to talk about how many flight hours it had and its next  and previous scheduled maintenance, and something about technical service on 10 august 2004.

            then the contact phone numbers.

            that's the gist.  i could be missing some important details.

            get US troops out of iraq and into sudan

            by zeke L on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 06:47:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Rusty Russkies in review (none)
              Good catch on it being technical servicing, there's that "sluzh" root in there, so defintely servicing.

              The autotranslator picked up "s priskorbiem" as "unhappily" which may be correct, I siezed on what I took to be the root "skor" with the prefix "pri" to come up with preliminarily--I shut my eyes to the "b" in there, and it's been a long time since i had my Russian-English slovar'!  :-)  

              I don't belong to any organized political party, I'm a Democrat--Will Rogers

              by Dancing Larry on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:19:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  yours is much better (none)
                i was trying to figure out how to translate kapitalnovo remont, and only came up with "maintenance".  major overhaul only came to me after i posted it.

                and for the guy below your translation, the parenthetical bit about the technical service/maintenance is just the name of the form used.

                and i knew thought there was a little something in there about what happened to the plane, but couldn't get through those words - like i said i can figure out what a newspaper article (say) is about, but not the details.

                and unfortunately my slovari is in storage somewhere as well.

                UPDATE: new stuff - this time i'll get help from babelfish...

                get US troops out of iraq and into sudan

                by zeke L on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:37:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks (4.00)
                  Having gotten my Russian in the old USAFSS, the kind of language in this press release was pretty much the Russian I'll always know, no matter how many years go by.  I was all excited because there was some Russian I could actually still translate after all these years.

                  I know I've met a fellow DLI alum here at Kos, was that you?

                  I don't belong to any organized political party, I'm a Democrat--Will Rogers

                  by Dancing Larry on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:53:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  DLI? no. (none)
                    coulda been my old man though ;^)

                    babelfish is sloooooooow. i'm gonna take a crack at the next couple lines.

                    information on cargo

                    the flight control center for "sibir" airlines confirms that the oxygen supply onboard was not commercial cargo.  commercial cargo is cargo and mail, not [otnosyatsiyesya] with passenger baggage.

                    or something like that.

                    get US troops out of iraq and into sudan

                    by zeke L on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:59:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  ah... (none)
                  and for the guy below your translation, the parenthetical bit about the technical service/maintenance is just the name of the form used.

                  that makes sense.  I was trying to figure out what the heck that was.

                  by spoooky on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 10:10:28 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  My Russian was never good (none)
                However, I have found the online translator here:

                http://translation2.paralink.com/

                to be much more adept than Babelfish, if more reports need to be translated.

                The emperor has no brains.

                by daria g on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 09:51:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  OK, I'm rusty, but... (4.00)
            I'll try to translate from the Russian:

            Official Statement of Sibir Airline

            Sibir Airline has preliminarily confirmed that a plane of the compny carrying out August 24 Flight 1047, Moscow-Sochi, at approximately 11pm Moscow time disappeared from air control radar.

            Regardless of the fact that details of what happened are presently unknown, we may confirm that there were 46 persons on board, including 8 crew members.

            The Tu-154 plane, registration number RA-85556, placed in service in 1982, had flown 30,751 hours of its originally rated 37,000 hours, data of its last airframe overhaul, August, 1993, has flown 14,876 hours since that major overhoaul which was rated at 15,000 hours.  Last technical inspection of the plane was 10 August 2004.

            Sibir Airline will provide further information as it comes in.

            I don't belong to any organized political party, I'm a Democrat--Will Rogers

            by Dancing Larry on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 06:49:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Translation of the page (excuse rough spots) (4.00)
            The airline "Sibir" confirms with regret that on August 24th, a plane of the airline carrying out Flight #1047 from Moscow to Sochi disappeared from air dispatchers' radar at approximately 23.00 Moscow time.

            Despite the fact that details of the incident are still not fully known, we can confirm that there were 43 people on board, 8 of them crew members.  Plane number ?u-154 RA-85556 has been  in commision since 1982, in total 30751 hours of flight time within designated resources of 37000 hours.  The date of the last major servicing was August 1993, and had flown 14876 hours since then, of 15000 hours of designated interrepair resources.  The last technical servicing [parenthetical about the type of servicing here, but I couldn't understand it] of the plane occurred on August 10, 2004

            The airline "Sibir" will release further information as it is received.

            Contact number:  8 800 200 000 7
            Media contact number:  (3832) 22 19 31

            by spoooky on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:16:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  whoa. (none)
            sometime in the last couple minutes they changed the page again.  now it's got some kind of funky black funereal action going on.  and there's a list of the crew members.

            the stuff about cargo i posted upthread is gone, though.

            get US troops out of iraq and into sudan

            by zeke L on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 08:16:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Botched attack (none)
    Or were the planes the targets?

    Or was the Olympics?

    by Ptolemy on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:19:31 PM PDT

    •  Damn, this will be the biggest thing since (none)
      The 3/11 bombings if they were bombings.

      And, it will be much larger if it comes out they tried to take over the planes.

      This will change the news for some time.

      by ECH on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:22:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Odd (none)
    Seems kind of weird to me that these planes were lost off radar 3.5 hours ago and we just heard about it now and don't have more info.

    by Boston on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:28:55 PM PDT

  •  weather... (none)
    According to Weather Underground, both the airport and the Rostov area are pretty clear.  One could see severe storms causing mechanical issues, especially with Soviet-era airliners that are potentially up to 30 yrs. old...but it doesn't look like that's it.

    by mlwjones on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:42:18 PM PDT

  •  amazing (none)
    two planes go down in russia and its still not at the top of the ny times.  what the hell?

    there is serious shit.  recommend this diary.  at least daily kos can consider this important.  people are dieing.

    Fight Bush! Support Allegheny Wilderness!

    by seamus on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:42:21 PM PDT

  •  MSNBC being cautious (none)
    correcting the earlier report. saying the 2nd plane is missing, not crashed.

    moooooo.com

    by jmelli on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:42:50 PM PDT

  •  trying to find a streamed radio broadcast (none)
    No luck yet finding live news, which is odd.

    This is a cowboy. Bush is a goat roper.

    by Joan McCarter on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:53:34 PM PDT

  •  Russia (none)
    Russian plane with 62 on board crashes; another plane missing

    http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=309911

    If one plane is still missing we have the possibility that hijackers tried to take over both planes and they failed with one of the planes.

    It could be alot of things.

    This is a potentally huge story that the Russian media is hardly touching.

    by ECH on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 03:56:56 PM PDT

  •  Pure speculation (none)
    Russia has many enemies. But two airplanes crashing, 4 minutes apart... The first suspects in my book would be the chechen militants.

    by ClaudeB on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:08:30 PM PDT

    •  Most likely (4.00)
      If there's a terrorist connection in this I agree it almost certainly  would be Chechens.  Also, I remember that when al-Qaeda first came up with the idea of destroying multiple airliners in a single event, it wasn't contemplating using them as missiles.  This was the "Manila Plot" hatched back in 1995-96 to crash several airliners over the Pacific simultaneously.

      I don't belong to any organized political party, I'm a Democrat--Will Rogers

      by Dancing Larry on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:16:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  ITAR TASS (none)
    (http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/)

    Doesnt' have anything up yet on the planes in either English or Russian, but there's this:

    MOSCOW, August 24 (Itar-Tass) - There is preliminary information that the explosion at a Moscow bus stop resulted from a bomb equivalent to 100-200 grams TNT, a city police source told Itar-Tass.

    Four people hurt in a Tuesday explosion at a Moscow bus stop were taken to the 7th city hospital and the Sklifosofsky Medical Emergency Institute, a source in the Moscow health department told Itar-Tass.

    This is a cowboy. Bush is a goat roper.

    by Joan McCarter on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:09:01 PM PDT

  •  Reuters has something (none)
    Witnesses saw blast before Russia plane crash-Ifax

    Witnesses saw an explosion on board a Russian passenger plane just before it crashed late on Tuesday near the town of Tula, Interfax news agency quoted local authorities as saying on Wednesday.

    The Emergencies Ministry said a three-engine TU-134 with 34 passengers and eight crew flying from Moscow to Volgograd crashed near Tula. It said another plane, a four-engine TU-154 with 44 passengers and eight crew on board, went missing near the southern city of Rostov-on-Don


    Voldemort/Cheney '04!

    by lapin on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:14:14 PM PDT

  •  More Reuters - termed 'suspicious' (none)
    MOSCOW (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin has ordered the FSB security services to investigate Tuesday night's crash of a Russian passenger plane and disappearance of another, Russian news agencies said on Wednesday.

    A government source told Reuters that normally the FSB only gets involved in such investigations when there are suspicious circumstances.

    It's amazing what happens when you listen to the other person's opinion --- GWB, 12/18/00

    by Doug in SF on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:35:58 PM PDT

  •  No mention of rockets (none)
    A Surface to Air Missile (SAM) or an air to air missile would leave a plume of fire from the rocket motors, easy to see at 11 pm.

    by B Rubble on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:44:42 PM PDT

    •  not SAMs (none)
      They're saying the crashes were more than 100 miles from Moscow, so presumably the planes would be too high for surface-to-air missiles.

      Kerry / Edwards 2004: Failure is not an option!

      by CA Pol Junkie on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:31:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Huh? (none)
        Sure, out of range of a shoulder launched rocket, but there are SAMs that will reach to more than 50,000 feet.

        Ask Francis Gary Powers about that... and that was back in 1960.

        Nice guy or not, if we're at war and I get to choose the guy in the foxhole next to me, I'll pick Kerry. At least I know he's gonna watch my back.

        by Steve4Clark on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 08:49:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Shoulder launched was probably meant (none)
          I believe it was an SA2 that shot down Powers' U2 and that's about 10m long. Probably launched from a semi-permanent installation or a truck.  It's unlikely a Chechen seperatist group could get their hands on a long range SAM (or more accurately would be able to or want to hang on to one for long).  Attacking airliners with shoulder launched SAMs near airports is more effective for terrorists since there is a good chance of wreckage landing on a populated area.  So SAM attacks are more likely near airports for two reasons.  

          I don't know if anyone has actually fired shoulder launched missiles at multiengined airliners, but I hear it said quite often that it would take multiple hits to guarantee the destruction of a large commercial jet.  The theory being that these are designed to take down small jets and choppers that are pretty unstable to start with and are filled with exploding stuff.  Others point out that commercial jets engines (which is where the heat seeker missiles will hit) are right next to the wing which is full of avgas.  Like I said, I don't know if there is a definitive answer to this one.

          A more likely (IMHO) tinfoil hat theory is that interceptors shot down one or both of these planes and the Russian authorities are debating how to spin this info before they release it.

          For me this hits at around the same probability as the terrorist getting a bomb on to the plane.  This should be almost impossible, but perhaps security is more lax than it should be for this Russian internal flight.

          By far the most likely is that this explosion story is a mistake and it will never be mentioned again.  Since I haven't actually finished this thread I look forward to looking stupid about 30 posts down from here :)

          by Eric in Dublin on Wed Aug 25, 2004 at 05:58:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I guess (none)
            I was thinking that if any SAM shot down these aircraft, it would have been Russian launched.

            If they were in fact hijacked, and Russian air control realized that... they very well may have shot them down rather than let a 9/11 event happen.  The Russians are not so concerned with the lives of innocent hostages as they are with stopping the terrorists.  We've seen this in the past with that Moscow theatre two years ago, as well as previous incidents with planes and busses and such.

            The fact is, not even Republicans like Bush. The only reason any of them are talking a bout voting for him is because he's not Kerry. Pass it On.

            by Steve4Clark on Wed Aug 25, 2004 at 11:43:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Of course (none)
              That was dumb of me.  Especially since I pushed the 'shot down by the authorities' idea myself and of course a large SA2 type missile could easily take out a commercial jet.

              I also agree that the Russians are more likely to shoot down a plane than risk a 9/11 type disaster.  Even in the US though I wouldn't like to be on a plane that had lost communications and gone off course for any reason these days.

              by Eric in Dublin on Thu Aug 26, 2004 at 12:29:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  It's frightening... (none)
    ...the absence of news on any of the Russian news outlets.  Sure, we criticize the press, particularly cable news, endlessly but at least we can be certain they'd be covering this story if it happened here in the U.S.  The poor Russian people can't turn to their own media for information on this story.

    by pacific city on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:57:04 PM PDT

  •  It's clear what this is... (none)
    Rebels from Chechnya. Give it 24 hours, and that much will be clear.

    by SenatorX on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:59:29 PM PDT

  •  I Predict Stinger Missiles (none)
    Shoulder-launched heat-seeking rockets. Chase a jet airliner right up the exhaust pipes.

    Wouldn't that make the airline stocks crash tomorrow?

    I will have a vice president who will not conduct secret meetings with polluters to rewrite our environmental laws -John Kerry

    by easong on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:06:05 PM PDT

    •  doubt it (4.00)
      Since both planes left the same airport, but went down hundreds of miles apart, a missle is unlikely. they'd have to be shot down at low altitude, near take-off, and thus much closer together. or so it would seem.

      sounds a lot like a bomb - perhaps the Bojinka Plot finally playing out?

      I'm sure that in a command center somewhere in D.C., this is being watched very closely.

      here's the latest from AP - as of 7:54 ET. interesting notes: "the plane that disappeared was flying to the Black Sea resort city of Sochi, where President Vladimir Putin is vacationing" and "the crash comes only days before Sunday's presidential election in the breakaway republic of Chechnya."

      by dirtgirl on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:26:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Or the same group of hijackers seperated (none)
        at the same airport onto 2 seperate planes.

        Regardless, any form of terrorism will sink airline stocks like a rock tomorrow.

        If it is terrorism I suspect it will get the Swift Boat crap out of the media for several weeks.

        It will also smack down our stock market hard and make people afraid again.

        by ECH on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:31:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are You Kidding? (none)
          If it is terrorism I suspect it will get the Swift Boat crap out of the media for several weeks.

          Are you kidding?  This happened on Planet Russia.  That's not even within the jurisdiction of world news.

          "You must be very discreet. I cannot overemphasize that."
          --Rep. Ed Schrock, FMA co-sponsor, while seeking gay sex on a telephone dating service.

          by Michael D on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:40:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So far the US media doesn't want to touch it (none)
            until Russia says it is likely one thing or another.

            After they do it will explode.

            Bush has already linked Chechen terrorists with al-Qaeda and I suspect he will do it again and Putin will link this with Bush's war on terror.

            by ECH on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:49:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  If you listen carefully (none)
    You can hear Richard Clarke and Anonymous grinding their teeth.

    by Ptolemy on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:33:35 PM PDT

  •  story coming up on MSNBC (none)
    Olberman is going to do this story on Countdown (MSNBC). Here's how it was teased going into the 8:30 ET commercial break:

    "LATER: One russian passenger aircraft crashes. Another - same model, same airport, at the same time - disappears. Could it be something other than terrorism?"

    by dirtgirl on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:36:57 PM PDT

    •  msnbc (none)
      ok, it wasn't "Later" so much as it was "Next". sorry.

      in sum, Steve Emerson ("msnbc terrorism analyst") was on and says: aviation specialists tell him this plane has a high rate of malfunctions, but the coincidences of simultaneous explosions are "bizarre." Mentioned Putin has launched FSB investigation. Speculated it could be Chechen terrorists or sabotage by organized crime.

      by dirtgirl on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:42:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Airliners.net (none)
    There is a long thread about this on airliners.net, a site for aircraft enthusiasts.

    http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1712541/

    Sponsor me in the AIDS Walk to support AIDS Project Los Angeles

    by runchadrun on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:38:14 PM PDT

    •  Isn't that the site (4.00)
      That broke the selection of Edwards?

      "I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry

      by alxt on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 06:06:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  7 letters (none)
        They broke that there was a 7-letter name being painted on the Kerry plane, narrowing it down to Edwards, Vilsac, or (for the wingnuts) Clinton.

        Sponsor me in the AIDS Walk to support AIDS Project Los Angeles

        by runchadrun on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 06:16:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Pretty sure they confirmed it was Edwards. (none)
          Someone on the site vouched that they indeed saw the name "Edwards" being painted on the plane, posting it online the night before(?) the official announcement.  (The Internet can be a beautiful thing.)

          Maybe the "7 letters" remembrance came from my obnoxious spoof diary?

          by Hunter on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:01:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, it was a poster who worked there (none)
            and saw them painting "Edwards" - I think his handle was Spiderman, I'd have to go back and chcke my blog archives though (I posted on it as an example of how real intel-gathering works.)

            "The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret" - T. Pratchett (change @ for AT to email)

            by bellatrys on Wed Aug 25, 2004 at 04:14:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Bush Calling Putin Now (none)
    "Vlad, be a good buddy and blame it on Al Qaeda for me. There might be a bigger piece of the action for you on the Afghan pipeline than we already talked about when you backed me on Iraq. What-dya say, comrade?"

    I will have a vice president who will not conduct secret meetings with polluters to rewrite our environmental laws -John Kerry

    by easong on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 05:57:55 PM PDT

  •  hmmmm (none)
    Given that Russian media is notoriously out in la-la land, I'm not jumping to any conclusions just yet. But it does strike me as being highly suspicious.

    I have a colleague who is Russian. If this turns into anything big, I will ask her tomorrow if she has any thoughts about this situation.

    by pine on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 06:44:48 PM PDT

  •  Our on the ball media (none)
    Russia and Ossetia, Georgia have been having a little bit of a problem of late. When statements like Georgian President warns of war with Russia, this makes doesn't make major news. But then again, it's only a war, we have one of those in Iraq. Not quite newsworthy these days. Now if we can show how Kerry faked a purple heart in Georgia, by allying himself with Ossetians, we got a story!

    Reports on crisis in Georgia

    by mickT on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:05:27 PM PDT

  •  "Who would've thought (none)
    that the two great Cold War powers would one day be faced not with the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation but steadily corrosive terrorist action?" says my objective anthropologist self.

    But at the same time, I can't help but feel so sad for the people of Russia, who have already been through so much in their long history.

    "How do you ask someone to be the last man to die for a mistake?" -John Kerry

    by tryptamine on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:23:08 PM PDT

  •  We ought to at least pause a moment here... (4.00)
    ...and give our condolences to the families of those hundred people.

    Yes, odds are, it was almost certainly terrorism, meant to make some political statement that right now we can only hypothesize about.  And, odds are, none of the people on those planes had the slightest thing to do with the political thing in question, and have been killed simply because crude and simple men wanted to make a point in the crudest and most utterly blasphemous way possible.

    What a horrible, horrible thing.

    by Hunter on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:32:12 PM PDT

    •  i hear you (none)
      Those were all people's brothers and sisters and moms and dads.
      I wish I could express something to encapsulate that loss, but I'm at a loss.

      occasional drunken bloviation

      by garth on Wed Aug 25, 2004 at 12:28:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  too close to the RNC convention (none)
        By the time the details emerge of this tragedy, it will fit in perfectly with the RNC's agenda next week. The RNC will highlight that Russia has been soft on terror because they ignored joining the coalition and now are paying the price of not supporting President Bush.

        At least that is what the talking heads will say. Bush will probably only mention that "The Events of Last Week are a testement to our World wide War on Terrorism...We can not let these terrorist killers...yada yada yada...

        So while the hearts and prayers go out to the families of the victims, nothing will stop this administration from capitalizing on this horrible tragedy. Shameless.

        "John Kerry took my shoe"--Mark Maron...Click for my shitty blog

        by bsilent on Wed Aug 25, 2004 at 06:28:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sadly if this is terrorism (none)
    And, it looks 99.9 percent like it IMHO. This will bring Bush and Putin much closer together and make it much easier for Putin domestically to make some sort of massive troop deployment to Iraq to help Bush out. And, I wouldn't be suprised if Bush sends troops to help Putin out, maybe some of the 70K that he plans to bring home from Europe and Asia.

    by ECH on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:34:30 PM PDT

    •  What's the Chechens got to do... (none)
      with the insurrection in Iraq? With the problems they have in Chechnya and in Georgia, the Russians are a little bit busy at home. They don't want/need to involve themselves in yet another civil war.

      by ClaudeB on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:49:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In the past two months... (none)
        there has been a number of reports that Putin and Bush have been in talks about the possibilty that Russia would send 40,000 troops to Iraq to help Bush out. There has been about 6 diaries here about this over the past two months.

        If this turns out to be terrorism it would make it much easier for Putin to do something like this without pissing off his people that much and this would allow Bush to make some kind of major gift of money, equipment, and troops to help Putin battle the "terrorists" in Chechnya.

        by ECH on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:57:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No way! (4.00)
          Russia has a rather large Muslim minority and, coupled with what happened to their army in Afghanistan, woundn't touch Iraq for all the gold in Ft. Knox.

          The Chechens are a bellyful for them and there will soon be a border war in South Ossetia.

          by paper tigress on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 09:47:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Time for the Orange Alert (none)

    While it was probably stateless terrorists (probably Saudi-sponsored) who brought the planes down, this comes at a convenient time for Bush.  Now he can have an Orange Alert just as Kerry's refutation of the SBVFuT gains traction.  

    by Yamaneko on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 07:45:51 PM PDT

  •  UPDATE: IT WAS A HIJACK! (none)
       MOSCOW (AP) -- The Interfax news agency has quoted an unnamed
    Russian official as saying a hijacking signal was activated on
    missing plane.
       (Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press.  All Rights Reserved.)

    "Oh, but it is their cheif and constant care to appear as everything but what they really are..."

    by JKU on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 08:26:39 PM PDT

  •  BREAKING -- NYT (none)
    Hijacking Signal Was Reportedly Activated on Missing Russian Plane (11:32 PM ET)

    Will James R. Bath reveal the secret behind George Bush's National Guard Service before it's too late?

    by pontificator on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 08:35:42 PM PDT

  •  Unfortunate... (none)
    I got home tonight and turned on the news to see this.  I called my girlfriend, who is Russian, and she was going to check some of the Russian news sources when she got back to her house.

    It's really interesting getting her perspective on things over there.  The US news does not report things with much detail.

    Nice guy or not, if we're at war and I get to choose the guy in the foxhole next to me, I'll pick Kerry. At least I know he's gonna watch my back.

    by Steve4Clark on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 09:02:40 PM PDT

  •  From Le Monde (none)
    The 44 passengers and crew of a Tupolev owned by the Russian company Volga-Aviaexpress died when the airliner went down  Tuesday evening near Tula, 180 km south of Moscow says the Russian Minister of Emergency Situations as reported by Interfax.The main part of the aircraft, flying from Moscow to Volgograd,was found 2 km from the village of Butchalki.

    A second Russian passenger aircraft which departed Moscow for Sotchi on the Black Sea with 46 passengers and crew  disappeared from the radar screens at approximately 23H00 local time (19H00 GMT). According to an authoritative source cited by  Interfax, the onboard alert system indicating that a hijacking was taking place was activated a few moments before all trace of the aircraft was lost.

    by paper tigress on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 09:35:09 PM PDT

    •  Second aircraft found (none)
      The second aircraft, a Tupelev 154, crashed in Rostov, on the Don.

      Also, a Moscow bus stop was bombed with a half-pound of dynamite. Four people were wounded.

      by paper tigress on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 09:44:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  More (none)
      The wreckage of a Tupolev aircraft owned by the Russian company Sibir, was found in south Russia Wednesday morning along with the remains of the 46 people on board several hours after the discovery of the crash site of another Russian passenger plane.  Both planes disappeared from radar at the same time.

      The hypothesis of a terrorist act cannot be ruled out, says Moscow air traffic control.  The Sibir jet provided service between Moscow and Sotchi, on the Black Sea.

      Both aircraft took off from Moscow's Domodedovo Airport. There were no foreigners on board either craft, say officials at Domodedovo Airport.

      by paper tigress on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 09:55:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  thats key (none)
        There were no foreigners on board either craft, say officials at Domodedovo Airport.

        So, if this is accurate, it was definitely the Chechens. My best guess: suicide bombers who threatened to blow up the planes and then did (would explain the distress signal). Either they smuggled bombs on board via outside help (employees at the airport), or they had shoe-bombs or something like that which went undetected.

        A horrible security lapse, if this hypothesis is close to true.

        RNC Protesters 8/29: Take Back Your Flag!

        by thirdparty on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 10:07:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  CNN International reporting (none)
    that the plane giving the "hijack" signal, its black box has been located.

    by Marisacat on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 10:03:09 PM PDT

  •  Swiss news... (none)
    Is reporting on two news subjects: the two downed jets, and the Abu Ghraib chain of command news...with much more focus on Rumsfeld/Abu Ghraib. Just wanted to give some international perspective, from where I live...

    by whataboutbob on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 11:56:40 PM PDT

  •  Headline news (none)
    had a talking head on going into detail about how Chechen rebels are bribing air officials or something along those lines.

    occasional drunken bloviation

    by garth on Wed Aug 25, 2004 at 12:33:28 AM PDT

  •  possible techical/pilot error? (none)
    According to MSNBC, no evidence at the crash sites has yet been found that indicates terrorism. I know Putin has every reason to try to spin this as an accident, but post-Madrid, he probably knows he can't get away with deceiving the public about a disaster of this magnitude. And there's an interesiting scenario I hadn't thought of, which is being investigated:

    Russia's main intelligence agency, however, said it had found no evidence of terrorism in initial investigations at the crash sites.

    The Federal Security Service, or FSB, said it was investigating other possibilities such as technical failures, the use of poor quality fuel, breaches of fueling regulations and also pilot error, its press service told The Associated Press.

    Would explain the simultaneous nature of the crashes, anyway. Something to think about. The planes don't look so pulverized that evidence of a bomb/suicide bomber couldn't be found. You'd think they'd have found something at the crash sites by now to indicate this. The Chechens are denying it. The "hijacking" signal may actually have been just a distress signal, indicating some problem on board.

    Also, if it was terrorism, another suspect to consider is organized crime. In many ways, in Russia today, they're probably more able to pull off something like this than the Chechens. They're not suicidal, but they would probably have an easier time putting bombs on planes than Chechens. Something to mull over as more evidence comes in during the next hours/days...

    RNC Protesters 8/29: Take Back Your Flag!

    by thirdparty on Wed Aug 25, 2004 at 06:01:58 AM PDT

    •  Fuel Problems (none)
      Airliners.net, a website news agencies use in the event of an air disaster, has a forum on the topic where it was offered that even if the fuel had been contaminated as sabotage, it would be very unlikely the two planes would crash with near-simultaneity.

      by Michael D on Wed Aug 25, 2004 at 06:27:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  true, (none)
        but i'd argue that even if it was terrorism, it's unlikely the planes would have crashed with near-simultaneity! (unless there were timed bombs). so we're dealing with a very unlikely event here, no matter which way you look at it.

        RNC Protesters 8/29: Take Back Your Flag!

        by thirdparty on Wed Aug 25, 2004 at 06:33:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well they said that (none)
          Flight recorders from both planes were found and taken to Moscow for investigation, ITAR-Tass reported, indicating the question of what caused the twin disasters soon could be answered.

          by ECH on Wed Aug 25, 2004 at 06:51:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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