Conversation with a Republican cop

I had the occasion to strike up a political conversation with a cop this afternoon, and knowing that he's a Republican, I thought I'd try to bring him around to a more progressive point of view.

To make a long story short, I got him to admit (without contention) that collective bargaining would be helpful to him if he had the right, that the middle class is shrinking because of current trade policies, that Bush's immigration policy would lead to de facto Mexican slavery, that Bush cares too much about corporations, and that Mexico would be much better served if their businesses and utilities were regulated as much as ours are.

Yet, no luck, even though he actually volunteered most of that.  The Republican propoganda machine is a mighty foe, indeed.

Has anybody actually ever had any success with this kind of thing before?

•  Yup

  My dad... lifelong Republican guy now shopping for Democrats.  Not really my doing, though.

  People usually won't change their mind in front of people during the course of debate.  It's sort of a pride thing - they'll fight, they'll consider, reconsider, see your point of view, but it's not until they have a moment of reflection in which they can weigh the issues and evidence on their own time will they consider changing.  What you can do is plant some seeds.

  by lennywick on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 07:30:04 PM PDT

  •  I learned this from my kids

    as well as life.

    People change their mind later on, and often don't even seem to know the new idea they have come up with was exactly what you were arguing.  

    by pyrrho on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 08:33:48 PM PDT

•  It's a lost cause

  Don't try to covert the Heathen.

  Just get the Faithful to the polls.

  by Monkey on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 07:31:00 PM PDT

  •  heathen

    He's not a heathen, just a nice guy who's been misled.

    As it turns out, we agree on most everything already.  I suspect a lot of average, everyday Republicans are pretty similar.

    by strannix on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 07:37:11 PM PDT

    •  Same experience here

      For example, my grandfather and I agree on many issues, and he recognizes this, yet he remains a hard-core Bush supporter.

      By the way, thanks for posting a diary that isn't either googly-eyed praise or fiery criticism for either Kerry or Dean.

      by educated foo on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 07:52:36 PM PDT

      •  Sure, We All Have Them

        Friends who are die-hard Republicans.

        But you have to treat them as mentally ill people who just won't get well.

        You can't convert them.

        They're BELIEVERS, and people who BELIEVE aren't swayed by reason or logic very often.

        by Monkey on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 08:32:52 PM PDT

•  Success!

  Yes, I have. I turned one of my business partners from a Fox News watching, Norm Coleman and George Bush voting, "gay agenda" fearing kind of guy into someone that wrote a letter to Walter Mondale asking him to support Howard Dean's candidacy. Then, I got him to give Dean $25. Then, out of the blue, he joined some "leadership group" thingy that DeLay started, just so he could get a picture of Bush, upon which he promptly stuck Howard Dean stickers.

  It just takes time.

  by justinb on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 07:32:10 PM PDT

  •  That's awesome!

    I've got everyone in my family voting ABB, except my brother who voted Bush last time. My hope is that he votes Dem. this time because he made up his mind to vote Bush in the friggin' voting booth! Now, I just can't imagine such a thing, so I guess his suppport is not exactly set in cement.  but he doesn't seem like he has the heart to vote for "G-Dubya".
    Most Dems have been stuck on the non-electability meme for Dean. Being a Deaniac it galls me, but I've done my best in this regard.

    by MichaelPH on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 08:15:02 PM PDT

•  Keep trying

  Most people view allegience to a political party like allegience to a sports team.  That's the way we've come to think of elections, as superbowls.  It's unbelievably oversimplified, but for no good reason.  The average person can easily grasp the issues at hand, but you have to MAKE THEM.  Most people do not feel politics has any effect on their lives.  So PRESS THEM, CHALLENGE THEM.    In a real debate, anyone who is not super-rich and/or a religious wacko couldn't conceivably support W.  It just isn't logical.  But you have to force people to think, that's the only way they'll come to this conclusion.

  by meloman on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 07:37:05 PM PDT

  •  Great point meloman

    Meloman,
    yeah, I run into a lot of that too.. I'll get conservatives to grant a whole universe of points, but then they are very reluctant to actually "flip.." In my experience, for most of them it comes down to fears that Dems will raise thier taxes.. This blocks out all other concerns for a bunch of folks out there...

    This is a big reason I support Dean, actually.. I love his argument that a lot of republicans lack job security, health care, a decent education.. and thus SHOULD BE voting for democrats.. I love that Dean is out there trying to preach this science, and is not willing to cede one inch of intellectual ground..

    by seatownbuckeye on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 07:43:23 PM PDT

  •  NASCAR dads...

    ...are the demographic niche du jour, and tending very Republican even though they should in many respects be Democrats on most issues, from.

    Their conversion is tough, though, especially if you use the wrong types of message delivered by the wrong types of people.  Calling them heathens or the unfaithful doesn't help (speaks to the converted, and that's a battle Democrats will lose, since there's more uncompassionate conservatives than liberals in the end...), nor does browbeating them with intellectual or political nonsense (engenders distrust and charges of elitism), nor does scaring them with huge government programs that will run their world for them from afar (the Republicans have realized that they're more libertarian than anything and approaches them that way), nor does excessively strident pacifism, environmental, gun control or civil rights arguments (while not necessarily pro-war, anti-environment, anti-gun, or anti-civil rights, they usually don't give a rat's ass about any of these things and aren't about to be converted to do so - attempts to do just that will turn them into dittoheads first, not NASCAR hippies.)  Generally, they'll be plain-spoken, decent people with real bread-and-butter issues that W. will pay lip service to but frankly gives a rat's ass about.  That's how they have to be approached, wherever they live (e.g., don't just assume the South - upstate NY here is rife with this group, at least outside of Ithaca, which is as Nader country as places get...13% Green vote in Tompkins Country in 2000...)

    It's a tough balance, but one that a few can pull off.  Dean tried with his aborted Confederate flag idea (right idea, wrong phraseology), his pointing out support for balanced budgets, the stupidity vs. the morality of the war, and his willingnesss to be moderate on gun control...Clark could if he takes advantage with his alliance with Michael Moore and rips a page from his playbook (Moore's style can hit home with these folks) and the mililtary and Southern roots certainly gives him a leg up, Edwards could with the southern thing (but the lawyer's slickness will be a turnoff) and Kerry could with the millitary record (although the Mass. liberal record and droning polspeak will be a definite minus...)  Lieberman far enough to the right to naturally appeal without a change in message already, but Bush can outflank him there and it's a toss-up.

    by mlwjones on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 08:07:00 PM PDT

    •  Much Easier

      To bring 2 Dems who wouldn't vote to the pols than to waste your time trying to convert a Republican, IMO.

      More effective, too.

      by Monkey on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 08:36:51 PM PDT

•  Of course there's hope

  I posted a diary today that deals with this subject. It's pretty much all there, but I would add that one conversation isn't going to do it. In all probability, you've got this guy thinking a little bit now. Let it perk. Then talk to him about it again, if you can. It takes a prolonged effort to free some folks from the enslavement of the Mighty Wurlitzer, but it works. It did with my dad.

  by Devin on Fri Jan 23, 2004 at 08:13:54 PM PDT