Kerry Prayer/Mojo Team Report

Thanks to everyone who joined in this evening. I really enjoyed reading your emails and posts on the original thread.

Despite the complaints about Kerry's lack of eye-contact with the camera (something I didn't notice at all), I think Kerry connected with viewers several times tonight, showing some passion for the things he believes -- and as that was the focus of my prayer, I'll just give The Almighty some props. :-)

Shall we do it again?

•  I said the Rosary tonight ....

  starting at 8:30, and added my own prayer right before the debate.

  It worked.  

  Thank you to all who participated.  I could feel the mojo.  I asked God to bless John Kerry with intelligent answers, quick wit, wisdom and strength, and to conversely expose the President as the jerk and liar he is to the American people.

  My prayers were answered.  

  by Delaware Dem on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:23:09 PM PDT

  •  me too

    It's so good to have something to celebrate now!

    by Timaeus on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:10:31 PM PDT

•  Opus

  I posted next to your comment earlier this evening.  I could feel everyone out there who was doing it.  I could feel Unseen envelop John Kerry.  Yes, let's keep doing it.  Next Tuesday for Edwards.  A from Friday for Kerry.  Again on the 13!

  Thank you for thinking of it!

  by DCDemocrat on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:23:30 PM PDT

•  drinking games?

  I thought that you would be drunk by now.  What gives man?

  by charlesdog12 on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:31:17 PM PDT

  •  I am.

    Had dinner with friends from 6:30 to 8.  Consumed three beers and a gin and tonic.   Drank 4 beers during the debate.  Smoked almost a pack of cigarettes.

    Tomorrow will not be fun at work.  

    Oh well.  The price I pay if I have to listen to the President.

    by Delaware Dem on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:34:11 PM PDT

    •  8 beers and you're complaining?

      he he he, I don't even start groaning the next day unless I've gone over 20. This is why I'm well acquainted with AA.

      by Timaeus on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:13:49 PM PDT

  •  I thought so too.

    But Kerry kicked ass. I was able to remain sober. I'm astonished.

    Of course, I had Bush muted half the time.

    by opus on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:39:30 PM PDT

    •  election night

      I always say to my friends that on election night, I will be drunk one way or the other.

      by charlesdog12 on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:42:41 PM PDT

•  You are entitled to your opinion.

  But I believe in God, and specifically in Jesus Christ.  I am Catholic.  You have every right not to believe in God, but you have no right to disrespect those who do.   "Grow up already?"  

  Why don't you?  Time for you to learn some tolerance I dare say.  

  by Delaware Dem on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:32:45 PM PDT

  •  To be fair,

    And I did think the poster was rude and offensive, but are you telling me you don't think atheists need to wake up and get smart? You don't think we're messed up and need salvation?

    The day Christians stop trying to convert me and my children is the day I will accept your lectures on tolerance with a straight face. Given that we're the distinct minority here, while you are part of an overwhelming majority, and given that the official holidays in this country are your holidays, and my kids pledge allegiance to your God, and my president doesn't bless me, perhaps your use of the word "tolerance" might seem a bit hypocritical.

    And perhaps all those sanctimoniously bemoaning the attacks by atheists might just wonder why in the world a tiny minority with zero representation  (yet whose taxes subsidize YOUR church) might deserve a little tolerance of their own.

    Again, not to defend the aggression of the poster. But I get much worse and I don't even challenge your belief in God.

    by galiel on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:53:29 PM PDT

    •  Not what I said.

      He can believe what he want, but he must respect my beliefs.  I believe in God.  He doesn't.  He is not allowed to insult me for believing in God just because he doesn't.  It is that simple.  

      I don't see how one can not understand that

      by Delaware Dem on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 03:29:59 AM PDT

•  I checked the clock

  and found a quiet space at 8:45 EST.  Focused my thoughts and energy towards Kerry.  Threw in a hail mary for good measure.    

  I also added a prayer for the American public.  May they wake up and see that there is an better choice out there.

  by LauraC on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:33:26 PM PDT

•  I love how

  when things go well, it was the prayers to God that did it.

  When things don't go well....do you blame God for that?

  The few who survived teh WTC on 9/11 "God was with me, God saved me".

  Meanwhile, what about the 3,000 who died? God didn't give a shit about them? Or they didn't pray hard enough?

  Such illogical, irrational nonsense.

  Nothing wrong with believing in a divine being.

  But the arrogance of supposing that your personal prayer changes reality - and ONLY when the reality works your way - there is nothing reverent about that.

  by galiel on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:35:10 PM PDT

  •  incidentally,

    I was on an emergency support discussion board online on 9/11, hours after the planes hit (my next-door neighbor was on the plane that hit the second tower), and someone actually posted there, "that plane that went down in Pennsylvania! I prayed so hard for it not to hit the White House, and it went down in a field! Praise God!"

    When the angry people (who were there to find out info about their families) reminded her how many people died in that airplane, and that it was reportedly the efforts of courageous passengers and crew who gave their lives to save the Capitol, she wasn't heard from again.

    Do us all a favor - whatever you believe, don't presume to take credit away from Kerry and the people who worked hard to prepare him for his victory tonight - not unless you are willing to blame God for Gore's defeat.

    by galiel on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:39:58 PM PDT

    •  Well...

      I politely responded below, even agreeing with your basic point.

      But unless you have some sort of documentation that you are the only person who knows The Truth about things, it seems rude of you to tell us that we're taking credit away, or presuming anything. I'm sorry you're so angry.

      by opus on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:43:47 PM PDT

      •  Simply asking for a logical answer

        I did not claim to know any Truth, that is what religious people do.

        I merely asked the question:

        If you claim credit for good things, saying that your prayer caused God to make them happen, do you take the blame for bad things?

        Or does it only work one way?

        Legitimate question. I did not question your belief in God, merely your belief that your prayer makes God do things that wouldn't happen otherwise.

        If that is not the claim, then why the congratulatory tone when talking about prayer for Kerry? And why no mention of the effect of your prayers when something bad happens?

        Using "you" generically here towards anyone that believes (selectively) in intercessionary prayer, not necessarily toward opus.

        by galiel on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:47:49 PM PDT

  •  asdf

    I am sick of you flaming every (seemingly) every diary that has anything to do with Christianity. If you've got a problem mwith organized religion, go bitch to the Southern Baptists or to Jerry Falwell or Ralph Reed, or Reverend Moon for that matter. Stop shitting all over us just because we believe in God. Don't read or comment on diaries that have a religious theme if you are so opposed. The people on this site who are religious are not bigots, nor are they trying to impose their beliefs on you.

    by chicagochristianleft on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:40:56 PM PDT

    •  If you take credit for Kerry winning the debate

      because of your prayers to God,

      Then why did you pray for Gore's defeat?

      Or did you just not pray right.

      Just explain that to me.

      While noticing that I said nothing wrong with believing in God, what I was objecting to was the hubris of inviduals taking credit for the efforts of others because they "prayed for them".

      Or, you can continue to throw up the straw man of "why do you hate Amerikur" oops, I'm sorry "Religion".

      I would suppose if you had a logical explanation for the former, you would not feel compelled to attack with the latter.

      by galiel on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:44:01 PM PDT

      •  asdf

        You know, it would be one thing if I followed you arounf this site, criticizing you for being an atheist and saying you're going to hell (like some nutjob Christians do in real life). If I was trying to impose my beliefs on you in this forum or judge you because you do not believe as I do, you would be right to tell me to fuck off. But comparing me criticizing you for trashing our comments to those who attack people's patriotism (Why do you hate America?) as a political weapon is bull. My problem with you and your comments is the spirit in which they are made. They are disrespectful and shut down any chance of dialogue. I don't come to this site to defend Christianity, I'm forced to spend more time than I would like fending off attacks from fundamentalist Christians and assorted whackos. I don't need to be attacked here for what they do and neither do the other people who have posted in this diary. The first post was about someone peacefully sitting in their home saying a rosary, sending good energy to Kerry. This planet is needs more of that kind of thing. Don't bother people who are trying to help make the world a better place.

        by chicagochristianleft on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:55:47 PM PDT

        •  Simple question, don't you have an answer?

          Do you believe that your prayer makes God do something that He wouldn't have done without the prayer?

          If so, why would God refrain from doing something good in the world just because you (or enough people) didn't pray for it?

          And if you pray for something good and something bad happens, do you then conclude that prayer doesn't work that way? If not, why?

          There are serious theological questions that are asked by devout people as well as skeptics.

          Incidentally, I know many believers who are offended by the idea that someone thinks they are so important that they can change God's behavior. Many theologians have written about this as well.

          Don't you even have the simplest response, beyond your ad hominem attempts to demonize me? These are direct, coherent questions. Pretending that anyone who questions anything is attacking your or imposing their beliefs on your is rather paranoid and avoids dealing with the real questions.

          I am not that other poster who yelled that there is no God. I am asking you a question. If you (or anyone else) responds seriously and respectfully, you'll find that I will reply in kind.

          I'm sorry if my initial response was a bit strident, it hit a hot-button of mine in relation to my neighbor and 9/11. He happened to be a Christian, and I don't think his wife appreciated hearing the survivors talk about how they prayed to God and God saved them. I'm sure he prayed too.

          That aside, however, my question stands, without any rancor. I have never heard anyone who practices intercessionary prayer answer it.

          by galiel on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:09:41 PM PDT

          •  asdf

            I agree that it's totally valid and healthy to ask questions about faith, prayer, etc. Yet, I (and I'm guessing some others here) do not necessarily want to engage the toughest theological questions, which have stumped some of history's greatest minds, in every diary relating to faith or religion. Perhaps, and I'm not being bitchy, it would be better to start a diary of your own about these questions (I say this without knowing whether or not you everhave done)so that those who wish to enage you may do so.

            It's just seems like there's no space for even a innocuous diary about a group of people who prayed for something good to happen tonight. Why do you have to pee on our parade? We are all terribly worried about the ramifications of a second Bush term, as no doubt you are, and this is part of our lifestyle, it's someting we do. Prayer hepls us and we like to think it helps things generally. But, again, we're not gunning for you because you're an atheist. Please just consider the context.

            by chicagochristianleft on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:45:44 PM PDT

          •  Beliefnet.com

            Beliefnet is a great site with many different perspectives, and you can find lively discussion of this and other topics.

            Here's an interesting starting point, considering tonight's event.

            Hope this helps you find a more focused, practical place to ask these important questions.

            by opus on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 12:56:12 AM PDT

            •  Perhaps Beliefnet is the appropriate place

              for you to have your religious discussions, then.

              Why is it ok for your to use this site to recruit people to prayer campaigns, or for pastordan to literally post his sermons here, or for people to argue that Kerry deserves our vote because he is "more faithful to biblical religion", but not ok for me to question those assertions and their political implications?

              I have consistently warned about the increasing attempt to "religiousize" this election, on the Left as much as the Right. I think that is a legitimate concern, not just for me as an atheist, but for all secularists - that is, people who support the Separation Clause and believe that religion should not intrude on the secular governing of our nation. That USED to include virtually the entire left, not to mention the libertarian right and a clear majority of this nation.

              I see increasing signs that this secular ethos is in danger - and I see increasingly vocal people on the Left who are actively working to make it so.

              Attempts to claim that God helped Kerry win because of intercessionary prayer have several political implications.

              First of all, they imply that God takes sides in political debates. Second, they imply that God favors Kerry, and, the narrative goes, this is because he is "more faithful to biblical religion" (a quote from a bishop cited favorably here and defended vociferously against criticism). Third, it is inherently exclusionary. More and more political events are starting with a prayer - Democrat events as well as Republican as well as "nonpartisan" - which explicitly sends a message of exclusion and superiority over those of us who are good people, good liberals, good Democrats, but who are secular or even non-theist.

              I won't make this an interminable comment by including the other reasons mixing religion and politics is a bad, antidemocratic and unamerican idea, most of which I have talked about before.

              We are told that the 9/11 terrorists weren't "really" devout - because, the circular logic goes, "really" devout people wouldn't do that. Only atheists would. We are told that fundamentalist theocrats in the US aren't "really" Christians (ironically, they say the exact same thing about you), because "real" Christians would not support such politics. Thus, the possible role organized religion might play in reinforcing and encouraging extremism is a taboo subject, despite evidence to the contrary.

              And, just look at the evidence here. You and your fellow proactive-theists come to an open, inclusionary democratic forum, whose focus is politics and political campaigns, and you set up shop posting sermons, organizing prayers for the candidate, and posting favorable political pronouncements by bishops about which candidate is the better Christian. And then you want to bar the rest of us from participating in the discussion.

              Your church, which my tax-dollars subsidize without representation, is an undemocratic, strictly hierarchical institution that tolerates no questioning of authority. You can, and do, prevent contrary opinions from being heard there. Your priest/minister/pastor/whatever will never invite an atheist to speak to your congregation and potentially sow doubt in their minds.

              Now, you want to impose that ethos on our democratic political process -but I am supposed to think that is ok, because you happen to support the same candidate.

              Sorry, but I have no intention of being prevented from participating in political discussions on a political blog. If you aren't comfortable with democracy, perhaps you should move your religious discussions elsewhere.

              I have no objection to you posting what you want here, promoting what you want, but I will post my opinions as well. That is what democracy is all about. Which is yet another reason religion is incompatible with politics in a free society.
              

              by galiel on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 06:55:22 AM PDT

              •  Fair enough

                The only reason I posted the beliefnet link was because I assumed you wanted to engage in a more lengthy discussion about intercessary prayer and thought you might find more space and depth to the discussion there. As someone who's settled in her belief about prayer, and doesn't believe in trying to impose my views on anyone else, I don't choose to do that debate here, and I thought you might like to know about a place where you could engage folks on that topic.

                But hey, you're right -- when I post a prayer thread for the next debate, you have every right to come and post your objections.

                by opus on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 11:17:24 AM PDT

  •  I agree completely

    My comment about the props was somewhat lighthearted. I don't pretend to know how it all works and I, too, am terribly distressed when people say "I was saved from that crash for a reason" and I wonder "so...those other people who died didn't have a purpose"?

    As many of us agreed on the original thread, we don't know, but it was something we wanted to do. Just in case. Because we could.

    by opus on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:41:42 PM PDT

    •  All I'm asking is,

      if it was a disaster, would you have concluded that prayer doesn't work?

      Otherwise, how do you know prayer changed anything?

      by galiel on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:56:26 PM PDT

  •  Well

    Too drunk and tired to have a physics discussion with you here. But I will say that I believe in the power of the minds energy.  My tiny and insignificant brain adds to the collective conciousness of the universe.  We can shape it into love, hate, or lust. Whatever.  But yeah, I'm focusing much of my energy towards Kerry.  

    by LauraC on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:41:47 PM PDT

  •  I gave you a 3

    certainly not for for your anger and arrogance (what's it to you if other people find joy and comfort and community in prayer? What's it to you if little kids believe in Santy Claus?) but because I think intercessory prayer, especially the "please let my team win" variety, deserves skepticism from both theological and moral perspectives.

    by Elizabeth D on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:07:02 PM PDT

    •  noted and apology made

      As I said above, I apologize for the anger and arrogance. "God answered my prayers" just hits a hot button with me because of 9/11 and my neighbor and watching the people on TV saying thanking God for answering their prayers while the molecules of 3,000 people burned in the ashes. I realize that is my problem and I shouldn't have projected that on people here.

      Nonetheless, I would appreciate someone answering my questions about intercessionary prayer which I posted in the comment where I first apologized.

      by galiel on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:12:22 PM PDT

      •  The one titled "simple question" etc n/t

        by galiel on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:14:06 PM PDT

  •  galiel

    Please give a break to some of your fellows here.
    Just because you don't know or understand something
    is slight evidence as to its existence vel non. You are exaggerating ridiculously your own importance. I myself base my Christian belief on a huge amount of empirical evidence, and many many others like me have explained this. You're not being truly rational. Get over yourself. Nobody cares about you as much as you do. By the way, I've given you many 4 ratings here. I'm just sore on this one point.

    by Timaeus on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:18:18 PM PDT

    •  Repeated assertions

      no matter how vociferous and aggressive, do not constitute evidence of fact.

      You can continue to pretend that this is about me and try to prevent people from discussing the implications of religious intrusion on politics by claiming that it is all an assault on all belief, but that does not make your assertion true.

      Interesting that, when I post a question about intercessionary prayer--something that itself implies that the one doing the prayer attaches a great deal of importance to themselves, believing even that they can make God do their bidding--you respond with an ad hominem claiming falsely that i am "exaggerating ridiculously" my own importance.

      I have made no claims of infallibility, I have made no claims that my words can make God do my bidding, move hurricanes or help "our guy" to win a debate. It is not I that has the hubris to make such claims.

      Perhaps your blind hostility to those who believe differently than you are, and your flat unwillingness to allow open discussion about the intrusion of religion on politics and its implications for our democracy, reveal more about your sense of self-importance than mine. I don't know, because my focus is the issues I raised, rather than attacking the person, as you are doing here.

      by galiel on Fri Oct 01, 2004 at 06:54:38 AM PDT

•  Wow!

  I have spent my whole life believing in God, but that well-reasoned, extremely well thought out theological treatise you just wrote there really gave me a smack down! Boy, where have you been all my life?

  by chicagochristianleft on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:36:48 PM PDT

•  Thanks For Suggesting this, Opus

  I really appreciate your inspiring me.  In turn, I told friends in my community to do the same.  I know, in its little way, it helped.

  I basically envisioned Kerry being really happy, grounded, strong, and glowing.  

  I was glad to see that he really was calm and grounded throughout the debate.

  I think, most definitely, that we should do this again.  I'm in if you all are!

  Peace!

  by SFLiberal on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 09:51:38 PM PDT

•  amen

  yes, let's do it again.

  i was with y'all at 8:45 EDT.  and i got something back - it's now my new sig.

  by zeke L on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:12:09 PM PDT

•  Yes

  I said a series of prayers on the bus over to watch the debate at my girlfriend's house.

  Yes, we should do it again, by all means.

  by Ben P on Thu Sep 30, 2004 at 10:23:13 PM PDT