Daily Kos

Bush supporters are misinformed

by kos

Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:39:23 AM PDT

What better example of the faith-based versus reality based community?
  • 75% believe Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda.

  • 74% believe Bush favors including labor and environmental standards in agreements on trade.

  • 72% believe Iraq had WMD or a program to develop them.

  • 72% believe Bush supports the treaty banning landmines.

  • 69% believe Bush supports the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.

  • 61% believe if Bush knew there were no WMD he would not have gone to war.

  • 60% believe most experts believe Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda.

  • 58% believe the Duelfer report concluded that Iraq had either WMD or a major program to develop them.

  • 57% believe that the majority of people in the world would prefer to see Bush reelected.

  • 56% believe most experts think Iraq had WMD.

  • 55% believe the 9/11 report concluded Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda.

  • 51% believe Bush supports the Kyoto treaty.

  • 20% believe Iraq was directly involved in 9/11.
    • These people are definitely not part of the Reality Based Community.
    • ::

    Tags: (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

    Permalink | 133 comments

    •  America (4.00 / 3)

      is filled with retards.

      by stewieeeee on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:38:51 AM PDT

      •  Thus saith J. R. "Bob" Dobbs (none / 0)

        "You know how dumb the average American is, right? Well, by definition, half of them are dumber than THAT!"

        Our Man in Redmond is now Omir the Storyteller

        by Our Man In Redmond on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:07:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Another thing "Bob" said (none / 0)

          "Too much is always better than not enough...."

          Too much evidence of WMDs is always better than not enough evidence of WMDs.

          Too much battle armor is always better than not enough battle armor.

          Too much deficit control is always better than noth enough deficit control.

          Too much truth is always better than not enough truth.

          Too much GOTV is always better than not enough GOTV.

          But don't ever forget the second, and oft-unspoken part of "Bob"'s quote:

          "...but it's almost as bad."

          The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes

          by lilithvf1998 on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:50:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That's too easy (none / 1)

        I was watching PBS' By the People last night and was so heartened by the conversations that regular Americans were having, when they were given the information they needed to speak competently on the issues and presented with a forum designed to take their input seriously. I had just about lost hope, but this program really checked my pessimism.

        Americans want to know what the hell is really going on, they want solid information about the nuts and bolts. They want to set the platitudes aside and talk about the issues that we face together. They have remarkably similar sets of priorities, although we diverge pretty evenly on the matter of pre-emption, I gather. They want to be heard. And they feel utterly left out of the process - across the board - in what many, if not all, agree may be the most significant election in a generation.

        These people were given a booklet of information to prepare them for these "citizen deliberations," but I understand that some were inspired to do extra research to better prepare themselves. They asked oustanding questions of the experts they were given access to. They were thoughtful and earnest, just like you'd hope they would be.

        It lifted my spirits immeasurably.

        There's great hope for this country out there - just waiting to be taken seriously. I'll never bash Americans, in general, again as stupid. Ameicans are ready and willing to do what's needed to get this country on the right track. They're just being severely underestimated and not being given a fair chance to elevate discourse and contribute to the solutions.

        Time flies, whether you're having fun or not.

        by Kimberley on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:10:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  11% can't find the USA on a map of the world... (none / 0)

      True.

      "I don't do quagmires, and my boss doesn't do nuance."

      by SteinL on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:41:20 AM PDT

      •  49.9% (none / 0)

        are below average.

        by pacificardea on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:55:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Incorrecto! (none / 0)

          49.9% are below the Median.  The average isn't a measure of distribution but a measure of, well, average.

          by Zinful on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 03:21:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Intelligence is multidimensional (none / 1)

            Intelligence as a 1-dimensional variable (for instance as operationally defined and measured by an IQ test) is one of the prime examples of a socially constructed human characteristic. So though you are technically correct, it is probably not too useful.

            It seems to me that it is potentially very dangerous (and maybe even ultimately undemocratic) to lay out intelligence in such glib terms as is being done in some comments here ---I am not referring to your comment but the general tenor of this diary.

            Perhaps it is better to say that the american public has been subjected to manipulation based on appeals to patriotism, religion and fear. We need to understand why this is the case and how this happened.

            by CSTAR on Sat Oct 23, 2004 at 10:12:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  yes, point well taken, (none / 0)

            my wife the PhD has drilled me with 'the mean is meaningless' but what the heck, I'm just an average Joe...

            by pacificardea on Wed Oct 27, 2004 at 08:47:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I always wondered about those questions (none / 0)

        Perhaps some of those people just find it amusing to mess with the poll.  That doesn't mean that there aren't really stupid people, just that these polls may misrepresent them...

        by Retyef on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:40:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Contrasts (4.00 / 2)

      Atrios has this BC '04 billboard photo up on his page. Clearly it appeals to the faith-based community.

      I like this version though.

      "The concentration [of the legislative, executive and judicial powers] in the same hands is precisely the definition of despotic government." - Jefferson

      by El Payo on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:41:20 AM PDT

      •  Interesting how "under" is underlined... (none / 0)

        ... what are they trying to say?

        Mission Accomplished: The ultimate in premature ejaculations.

        by stillnotking on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:44:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's odd, isn't it? (none / 0)

          It's like they're saying they're for Bush, but they're reminding him they're for God first, and he's not God. Or maybe they're saying that America is based on judeo-christian religion. Or maybe they told the printer to underline God, but he messed up. Or maybe it's a hint to where the WMD are buried. UNDER something.

          "The concentration [of the legislative, executive and judicial powers] in the same hands is precisely the definition of despotic government." - Jefferson

          by El Payo on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:48:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe they meant this: (3.00 / 3)

          Drive-by commenting is such fun!

          by galiel on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:06:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Saw them, too -- and I was scared (none / 0)

          I'm from Jackson, MI, originally, where these are everywhere. Some local citizen sponsors them, Stephen somebody or other. Jackson - not surprisingly - is the home of the Republican Party (founded 1854), but was until recently (I believe) majority Democrat, due to the heavy industry and assorted unions there.  It has always been creepily conservative in a lot of ways, though, as a look at the "voice of the people" page in the local rag will attest.  I visited a couple weeks ago - just for a day or two - and when I saw these signs I felt, for the first time in my life, an honest taint of fascism in the air.  I'd always dismissed the "we're going fascist" arguments as a little over the top, but if a chisled, blond Nazi version of Dubya had appeared on those posters, I wouldn't have been surprised.  There are BC04 signs everywhere in Jackson -- far, far, far more than I've seen here in Kansas, where I live, supposedly such a "what's wrong..." backassed red state (which of course it is).

          I'll never live in Jackson again....especially not now.  The town can burn to cinders, so far as I'm concerned.

          by apophenia on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 03:52:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "The town can burn to cinders..."? (none / 0)

            I'm sure you're being hyperbolic, but let's not forget that there are a lot of personally good people who will vote for Bush. We think they're misguided and that it's immoral to vote for such a horrendous president, but for various reasons, they disagree. That doesn't make them all bad people. If we demonize all Bush voters, we're lost.

            by New Yorker on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 04:40:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  hyperbolic (none / 0)

              Guilty - I was indeed being hyperbolic, and some of those good Bush voters in Jackson are my own family members. I realize that 45 percent of the country is not evil.  I hold a special bitterness for conservatives in my hometown, though. I always find it disheartening that in a rust-belt working-class town like Jackson MI, they insist, election after election, on licking the hand that beats them.  I can attest, after having lived in a number of places around the country, from Utah to the deep South, that if there is a place where "evil Bush supporters" live, it's as likely there as any Texas cow town or any backwater Kansas village.  Having risen above my deeply conservative raising is a point of pride for me -- thus the "hyperbolicity."

              by apophenia on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 07:12:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Understood (none / 0)

                Understood, bro. Just being careful; we don't want to go overboard. And congratulations on overcoming your conservative heritage. :-)

                by New Yorker on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 09:17:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks (none / 0)

                  There's no feeling like ideological liberation....

                  by apophenia on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 09:34:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yeah, they can be scary (none / 0)

                    I was born and raised north of Jackson (in a little town called Fremont), and I can attest to what you are saying.  I live now in North Carolina, and when my exiled Northern friends complain about how backwards people are down here, both religiously and politically, I tell them it's worse up in parts of Michigan.  I remind them that the Dutch Christian Reform in the West Michigan area are one of the two groups that left Holland at the end of the 19th century.  The other group went to South Africa and founded apartheid.

                    tom delay

                    by libinnc on Sat Oct 23, 2004 at 04:43:07 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Soooo excellent! (none / 0)

        Thanks. I linked you up on my del.icio.us page so all may share your boptastic superfunkatizing goodness!

        "One should always have one's boots on and be ready to leave." - Michel de Montaigne

        by adamgreenfield on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:55:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  God = Republican? (none / 0)

        A woman parked next to me yesterday with a "The Republican Party, God's Party" bumper sticker.  ISH!  as al franken would say...

        by smileysmom on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:37:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Fox News (none / 0)

      You bastards, this is what happens when you skew the news and put opinion on TV as though it were fact.  Is it even possible to hold Fox accountable for how much it has hurt our country and it's democracy?

      by Azureflare on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:41:46 AM PDT

    •  Kerry Ad (none / 0)

      Kerry Ad Idea....

      OK, here we have it.  Kerry needs to put out an ad responding to this list point by point.  Sort of a "push-poll" ad...

      Could you vote for Bush if you knew that ....?

      Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

      by landrew on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:42:16 AM PDT

      •  Honey required (none / 0)

        Doubtful we can win anyone's vote telling them how stupid they are. There are plenty of ways to say how often the Bushies have lied, but this is pretty snarky toward the people we want to convert.

        When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When you have neither, holler. - Al Gore

        by angelama on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:56:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We're not gonna convert them, (none / 0)

          we are gonna OUTVOTE them.

          When stupid suffices, why search for any other reason?

          by wozzle on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:09:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Man I hope you're right (none / 0)

            I just got into a fight with my mom on the phone because she (living in OH) said she was voting for Bush because Kerry is crazy. When I asked her what was so wrong with him she couldn't say. And when I asked her what was so good about Bush she said nothing but she thinks Kerry is scary. Kerry is the scary one? I thought my head was going to explode.

            When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When you have neither, holler. - Al Gore

            by angelama on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:45:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's what I find amazing (none / 0)

              If you try to engage a Bushie in debate about why he's such a good president or what they like about his policies, they never say anything.  They refuse to discuss it.

              Blind.

              by ides on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:45:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  "scary Kerry.." (none / 0)

              I wrote a diary about "scary Kerry" . It was also a answer letter to an article in LA Times . But they apparently just ignore it . What a conveninet position.

              by ray z on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 08:19:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Same here... (none / 0)

              My mother, also in Ohio, wants to vote for Bush.

              Her reasoning? Kerry is a liar, Bush is not. Kerry is evil (an email she got suggested he used the wrong quote from the Bible, a snopes.com link proved her wrong), Bush is a good Christian. Kerry wants abortions, Bush is against them. Kerry is for homosexuals, Bush is not. Bush started the war, so he should be allowed to finish it.

              These are her reasons for voting for Bush, no matter what I've shown her, told her, etc. Even after knowing that Bush is a liar, Kerry isn't evil, Kerry's a Catholic, Kerry is against abortions (but feels he shouldn't push his religion onto others), Kerry is against homosexual marriage (but for their rights) and that Bush never finished the initial war he could have, she thinks Bush is still far better for those reasons listed above.

              http://www.garhi.net/ Human evolution for the common man

              by Christopher Bair on Sat Oct 23, 2004 at 09:11:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Great ad (none / 1)

        It would make an excellent ad.  It should start out with numerous quotes from Bush like "people know exactly where I stand" or "people want a president whose beliefs are clear".  He's said stuff like this many times.  Follow that with excerpts from the survey.  People hate being conned.

        by cmulzer on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:12:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What else is left to do? (none / 0)

          If media does not do its job... Dems should do anything they can to get their message and facts across. There are several ways to do that, and yours is not bad at all. Dems still have money for adds, haven't they? It just stupid to lose votes only because voters do not know a sure thing about Bush.

          by ray z on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 08:29:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Not only that... (none / 0)

      -- 14% still report intermittent panic attacks from the idea of Iraqi balsa-wood rubber-band-powered drones napalming their children.

      -- 68% believe that No Child has actually ever been Left Behind.

      -- 99% had not forgotten Poland.

      -- 81% believe that there is actually an old saying in Texas (and probably in Tennessee) that says, "Fool me once, shame on-- shame on you. Efulmuh-- you can't get fooled again."

      OK, I'm site pimping. Rest here

      "Get yourself some toilet paper 'cause your lyrics is butt." -- Q-Tip from A Tribe Called Quest

      by Norbizness on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:42:29 AM PDT

    •  The Most Astonishing Statistic (3.66 / 3)

      Did you know that 95% of Bush supporters believe that he can find his ass with both hands?

      It's just AMAZING!

      by Cyberactor on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:43:32 AM PDT

    •  They are not Clueless (4.00 / 3)

      They are Willfully Ignorant.

      99% perspiration

      by DaveOinSF on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:43:37 AM PDT

      •  The crux of the biscuit (4.00 / 2)

        Many people, including me, have from time to time criticized the Kerry/Edwards campaign and the DNC for their failure to expose and explain the many failures of the Bush/Cheney administration.

        In a rational world, even the people who support its stated goals would acknowledge that the Bush/Cheney administration has failed to achieve them.  These polls results show why they don't.

        These people are willfully, and stubbornly, ignorant.  It is not possible to turn this kind of thing around in an election campaign, and it will take a lot of work.  When the propaganda that supports these false beliefs is so relentless, it may not be possible at all.

        Think about how many Americans persist in the belief that the Viet Nam war was a good idea, and that the US would have had a victory in Viet Nam if only the liberals had not objected to it.

        by James Earl on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:11:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bush's latest stump shows why he's going to lose (none / 1)

      In today's Five Choices of Great Consequence speech (shades of the Three Represents, perhaps?), Bush shows why he's going to lose.

      Bush said families face these five choices of "great consequence'' in the election -- security, home budgets, quality of life, retirement and values.

      Whoops, what about jobs?

      Note that the "five choices" are the choices that people who are rich or safely employed face.

      Dubya is so screwed.

      Find out the latest in the global warming fight at Wonk Room!

      by The Cunctator on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:44:19 AM PDT

    •  when people think (none / 0)

      democrats win....Bill Clinton

      Proof that the Bush administration does, indeed, create their own reality.

      And they're deliberate campaign to misinform the American people has been largely successful.

      Very disturbing.

      by getmeoutofdixie on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:44:31 AM PDT

    •  information (none / 0)

      I gues the question is--do they WANT to be informed? Are they literally aware enough to be informed?

      After a series of interactions with some of the more radical, evangelical, republican types, it is my opinion they just don't care about facts. Not one whit. This is the whole "higher father" thing" Bush talked about with Woodward.

      It is scary to interact with people who just don't have their feet or their mind based in reality. They want to float on their faith in the unseen, unknown and unknowable. They mistake delusion for optimism.

      Obama is the more honorable person.

      by oofer on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:44:35 AM PDT

      •  Anecdotally... (none / 0)

        ... the vast majority of people (not just evangelicals, but probably more so for them) make decisions based on their intuition/gut/feelings/instincts/whatever, rather than a reasoned examination of policy.

        In my conversations with coworkers, this theme comes up constantly.  Usually it's some variation of "I don't trust either one of them."

        There is certainly merit to the idea that a leader should be chosen based on how trustworthy he/she is, but how do you know who's trustworthy when you don't follow the issues?

        Mission Accomplished: The ultimate in premature ejaculations.

        by stillnotking on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:49:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Washington Monthly: Bush and his supporters (none / 0)

      This would be great to pass around... They have a table out comparing how well Bush and Kerry supporters know their candidate

      by psykomeyeko on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:45:26 AM PDT

    •  Hilarious/Terrifying press conf transcript (none / 0)

      Being a White House press secretary in the days of "reality-based communities" cannot be easy.  Check this:
      http://slate.msn.com/id/2108562/

      from Tim Noah at slate.  I wonder why Americans are uninformed???

      "something pithy"

      by otis m on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:46:44 AM PDT

      •  Beam me up, Scotty (none / 1)

        Being a White House press secretary in the days of "reality-based communities" cannot be easy.

        Sure it is. Just spout gibberish. You'll wig the press corps out so bad, they won't know what to write.

        Ask Copernicus about pushing limits.

        by Xray the Enforcer on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:54:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  MUST SEE DOCUMENTARY: BANNED IN US (none / 0)

      MUST SEE DOCUMENTARY: BANNED IN US

      "THE WORLD ACCORDING TO BUSH"
      The Wiser, Older Brother of Fahrenheit 9/11 ...

      http://www.bush-flipflop.com/watb.html

      Note: Complete version is online. This film will not be released before the election. Watch it online
      at the link and email it to as many people as you can before the site is
      shut down ...

      by bushflipflop on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:46:54 AM PDT

    •  Can't Really Blame Them... (none / 0)

      The Republican Party has made a deliberate attempt NOT to tell people about their position. If you watch any GOPer on TV, all they do is ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK. Ask them about Poverty and they talk about Kerry as a flip-flopper. In all honesty, even I don't know what Bush will do if he is elected. Bush simply won't say anything outside of his oneliners.

      Aldous.

      by Aldous on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:47:11 AM PDT

    •  Keeping America Stupid(tm) (none / 0)

      That should be the Bush campaign slogan.

      Bush's lack of support for education reform (NCLB too) ensures that people stay stupid, and therefore don't know how to think for themselves.  That means they eat up Faux News and all the other bullshit out there that pretends to be "media".

      god help us all!!

      Oh yeah, and remember that Bush is Kahledj Edumacated himself.


      There is only one "bug killer" that will work on "Oil Maggots"-- Hydrogen. -- edscan

      by Plutonium Page on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:47:18 AM PDT

    •  Wouldn't this be more effective... (none / 0)

      ...with corresponding news articles cited which speak directly in contrast to the survey results?

      by incaseofrain on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:47:43 AM PDT

    •  Air America radio starts in Seattle on Monday (4.00 / 3)

      http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002069848_airamerica22.html

      by Zach in Phoenix on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:47:46 AM PDT

      •  w00t!!!! (none / 0)

        Holy cow!  That's friggin awesome!

        Cthulhu 4 Preznit -- Why vote for petty evil?

        by Great Cthulhu on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:50:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Awesome. (none / 0)

        Now I need to go find a radio which I can play in my office at a reasonable volume between 9 and 11 while I'm collating.

        "The concentration [of the legislative, executive and judicial powers] in the same hands is precisely the definition of despotic government." - Jefferson

        by El Payo on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:52:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You can still listen to it (none / 0)

          using Windows Media Player or RealPlayer via the "Listen Now" link on the site. Assuming, of course, that your employer allows you to and you have speakers and all that. That's how I'm listening right now.

          I like the idea that AAR will be in Seattle, and KYCW/KPTK is a 50 kw station so hopefully it will get some coverage up here in the upper left hand corner. I have to wonder, though, what that means for Madman Moskowitz' Sunday novelty/oldtime country show, which I enjoy. He's probably not too worried, though. Someone always seems to pick him up when the station he's on changes formats, and if all else fails he could go back to KSER in Everett. (he was doing both KSER and KYCW for a while, but gave it up because doing the same show twice a week was really taking it out of him.)

          Also, are they going to run the shows in real time or are they going to delay everything by three hours so the shows will be on at their intended times?

          I guess we'll find out. It'll be interesting to see who advertises locally.

          Our Man in Redmond is now Omir the Storyteller

          by Our Man In Redmond on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:06:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Strange time slots (none / 0)

            KSNB in St. Louis Park (Minneapolis/St. Paul) broadcasts the first two hours of the Al Franken Show live, then breaks for three hours for Ruth Koscielak then broadcasts the final hour of Al Franken. This gets really wierd at home, where I listen to streaming audio off airamericaradio.com downstairs in the office but on a radio tuned to KSNB upstairs. It finally struck me when I heard Katherine Lanpher talk to Fritz Mondale at 1pm and again at 4pm.

            --
            Paper Ballots Counted By People!

            by Rupert on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 01:24:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  WA-05: Barbieri has a shot! (none / 0)

        http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/196303_joel22.html

        by Zach in Phoenix on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:10:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  *Sigh* (none / 0)

        Chicago needs another Air America station.

        by Antioch on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:40:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Great info! (none / 0)

        My partner used to have the alarm clock set to KISW because she liked listening to Howard Stern. Now I have the perfect excuse to change the station. Bless you, Zach!

        The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes

        by lilithvf1998 on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:02:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I rank this news right up there with... (none / 0)

      ... the diary headlined, "George HW Bush is a pathetic jerk..."

      Yes, the Pope is Catholic.

      by Bob Johnson on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:48:06 AM PDT

    •  Unfortunately (none / 1)

      our modern educational system teaches you can be stupid but you should still feel good about yourself. So it contributes to our having lots of people who don't worry about being out of touch with reality. They've been taught to have self esteem no matter how dumb and/or uneducated they are.  Emphasis on self esteem and the 'self' in general has degraded our respect for fact, in fact contributes to our population's contempt for reality which we see reflected everywhere in the news and half the voting population.

      Who controls the past, controls the future. Who controls the present, controls the past. George Orwell

      by moon in the house of moe on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:48:17 AM PDT

    •  You want numbers? (4.00 / 2)

      1 Number of Bush administration public statements on National security issued between 20 January 2001 and 10 September 2001 that mentioned al-Qa'ida.

      104 Number of Bush administration public statements on National security and defense in the same period that mentioned Iraq or Saddam Hussein.

      101 Number of Bush administration public statements on National security and defense in the same period that mentioned missile defense

      65 Number of Bush administration public statements on National security and defense in the same period that mentioned weapons of mass destruction.

      0 Number of times Bush mentioned Osama bin Laden in his three State of the Union addresses.

      73 Number of times that Bush mentioned terrorism or terrorists in his three State of the Union addresses.

      83 Number of times Bush mentioned Saddam, Iraq, or regime (as in change) in his three State of the Union addresses.

      $1m Estimated value of a painting the Bush Presidential Library in College Station, Texas, received from Prince Bandar, Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States and Bush family friend.

      0 Number of times Bush mentioned Saudi Arabia in his three State of the Union addresses.

      Many more numbers here...

      Cthulhu 4 Preznit -- Why vote for petty evil?

      by Great Cthulhu on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:48:49 AM PDT

    •  Generalizations (none / 0)

      These numbers are scary, but don't generalize, it diminishes your agument...I think that saying "faith-based" is a bit of a generalization... there are lots of flavors of "faith-based" folk; not all are of the uninformed, evangelical, delusional ilk.

      by colinsanford on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:49:37 AM PDT

    •  cognitive dissonance theory (none / 0)

      After the election madness dies down, you should read up on cognitive dissonance theory to understand what lets people be this stupid.  I suggest checking out The Social Animal.

      by ignu on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:49:39 AM PDT

      •  Is the Republican political operation a cult? (none / 0)

        I seized on the phrase "cognitive dissonance" on page 14 of the U. of Maryland report:  "To support the president and to accept that he took the U.S. to war based on mistaken assumptions is difficult to bear... Apparently, to avoid this cognitive dissonance, Bush supporters suppress awareness of unsettling information."

        Then I looked up the term and found this, which I'll summarize:

        The term "cognitive dissonance" refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between 1) what you already know or believe; and 2) new information or interpretation.

        Cognitive dissonance is a normal part of learning - accomodating contradictory information. However, for those with an unusual commitment to their preconceptions, cognitive dissonance leads to a rejection of learning. This resistance to learning is a function of one's psychological and practical investment in that which one thinks one knows.

        Cognitive dissonance was first investigated academically in a study of a cult which believed that the earth was going to be destroyed by a flood. When the flood did not happen, most fringe members recognised that they had made fools of themselves, but most committed members decided that it was the very existence of the cult that had saved the earth.

        Those who had invested the most in the cult could not mentally accomodate the new information that they had been wrong, instead inventing a fantasy that would perpetuate their belief in the correctness of their initial understanding.

        by GonDaddy on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:51:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  An old text book from 1963. (none / 0)

        That I still have, guess I'll have to look it over again.

        Another that I can suggest is The Adjusted American.

        Support citizen journalism, every little bit helps.

        by dlcampbe on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 08:32:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Reality based community sucks (4.00 / 2)

      I'm starting to wonder whether being off in lala-land isn't vastly preferable, at least you can pretend problems don't exist. Wonder if the bank will buy that, next time my loans are due?

      To Bushco, this isn't a problem, it's an opportunity.

      (WHERE IN THE WORLD
      Among 18- to 24-year-old Americans given maps:

      87 percent cannot find Iraq

      83 percent cannot find Afghanistan

      76 percent cannot find Saudi Arabia

      70 percent cannot find New Jersey

      49 percent cannot find New York

      11 percent cannot find the United States

      From: CNN all the propaganda that's fit to etch on impressionable minds.)

      "I don't do quagmires, and my boss doesn't do nuance."

      by SteinL on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:51:56 AM PDT

      •  127% of Americans think Toronto (none / 0)

        is the capitol of Canada. Sometimes, even I think that's true.

        -6.38/-3.79::'A man is incapable of comprehending any argument that interferes with his revenues.' Descartes

        by skrymir on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:05:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  this is nothing new (none / 0)

        I took a physical geography class in college, 20+ yrs ago. Most of the students couldn't find Iran on a map -- and this was during the hostage crisis (79-80). I was in central CA, most of the kids couldn't find anything further than LA or SF.

        It's sad, but it's been building for a LONG time.

        This is what you get when you don't teach geography in grade school, and when you don't teach American govt/history. You get a citizenry with no clue and no connection to the rest of the world.

        by mmacdDE on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:24:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  what's kind of interesting about (none / 0)

      the poll questions is that a number of the stances are more "liberal" than Bush himself, and yet people think he was for them. If they support Bush and think that, maybe the people themselves are more liberal than Bush and haven't connected the dots. Education might help...

      Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

      by JMS on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:52:05 AM PDT

    •  This (none / 0)

      is the most dangerous effect of media consolidation.

      Come visit! http://thenextelection.blogspot.com

      by jimmything2681 on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:56:06 AM PDT

    •  An important piece of information not cited above (none / 1)

      61% believe if Bush knew there were no WMD he would not have gone to war.

      There's an important additional point in the study: Bush supporters said they would not have supported the Iraq war if WMD and Al Qaeda links were nonexistent. One of the actual survey questions "If, before the war, US intelligence services had concluded that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction and was not providing substantial support to al Qaeda do you think the US: Should not have gone to war?"

      From the report (any emphasis mine):

      3. The Decision to Go to War

      Majorities of Bush supporters and Kerry supporters agree that if Iraq did not have WMD or was not providing support to al Qaeda, the US should not have gone to war with Iraq. Another key reason why Bush supporters may hold to the beliefs that Iraq had WMD and supported al Qaeda is that it is necessary to their support for the decision to go to war with Iraq. Eighty-five percent of Bush supporters say that going to war was the right decision. However, asked what the US should have done "If, before the war, US intelligence services had concluded that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction and was not providing substantial support to al Qaeda," 58% of Bush supporters said in that case the US should not have gone to war. Furthermore, 61% express confidence that in that case the President would not have gone to war. To preserve the belief that that going to war was the right decision, it appears necessary for Bush supporters to believe that Iraq that the assumptions that prompted going to war were correct. Nearly all Kerry supporters (92%) agree that if US intelligence services had said that Iraq did not have WMD and was not providing support to al Qaeda, the US should not have gone to war. Consistent with their belief that Iraq did not have WMD and did not support al Qaeda, 90% of Kerry supporters say that going to war was the wrong decision. Kerry supporters, unlike Bush supporters, overwhelmingly believe (83%) that if Bush had been given such information, he would still have gone to war for other reasons.

      Why is this important? It shows that Bush supporters actually disagree fundamentally with their commander in chief. He would have gone to war in Iraq anyhow -- and has publicly said as much after the Duelfer report came out, even once citing oil-for-food abuses as just cause for war.

      The key here is that, if Bush supporters can be shown factual backing -- such as the Duelfer report -- that there were no WMD or connections to Al Qaeda, there is an opportunity to shake their support for the war and its proponents.

      Remember, we don't need to convert all of them -- just a couple % here and there. Even disheartening them so they don't vote for Bush is enough to save our country.

      by Kyle B on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:00:06 AM PDT

      •  Didn't JFK say much the same? (none / 0)

        ie that 'knowing what we know now' he would [also] have invaded.

        by lester on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:47:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Kerry Supported the Congressional Vote (none / 0)

          Uh, Lester, what Kerry said is that he would have voted for the Congressional authorization to threaten to use force.  Please note that the vote didn't demand an invasion.  Only reactionary wingnut thugs think that the vote demanded an attack.  It didn't.

          It was intended to crack Saddamn Hussein's shell and pry out the meat of the situation.  The purpose of the vote succeeded.  It showed that Saddam Hussein did not have WMD.  Only Dubya demanded a hurried, immediate attack because he wanted his war in 2003, even though he could tell that Saddam Hussein had no WMD in Iraq under his control before the invasion.  The wingnut refrain that Kerry voted for the war is a canard, because they can't understand what the intent of the vote was.  Dubya did lie about how he would proceed.  Let's focus on his complete lack of character and duplicity.  Dubya will be going to The Hague, along with the rest of the thugs who enable him to launch this benighted war.

          "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

          by PrahaPartizan on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 01:03:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Molly Ivins on this Topic: Media to Blame (none / 1)

      I saw Molly Ivins speak on C-SPAN last week, and someone asked her if the fact that such a vast number of people still believed Iraq had WMDs was a sign of the lack of intelligence of Americans (or something to that effect.)

      She said something like: No, it's more of an indictment against the media.  It clearly proves that the media are NOT doing their job.

      Is it true?  Can the media be misleading?  Well, everyone on the Kos is already on board on the Media, Inc., concept, but it certainly isn't playing well across the U.S., because they, most Americans, don't get the motive or understand the natural consequences of a media quinopoly (my new word).

      Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

      by Einsteinia on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:01:01 AM PDT

    •  There people don't believe in facts or evidence (none / 0)

      The neo-cons have been warring against facts, evidence, and the Scientific Method since the neo-con movement began. In fact, I believe that's one of the key issues of the neo-con movement. Neo-cons want facts to have no greater weight than a generic expressed opinion.

      These are people who are intellectually lazy. They do not want to be forced to do the work of educating themselves to become learned in a subject before interjecting themselves in a discussion on a topic or issue. They have therefore attempted to overturn the entire cultural paradigm upon which the society decides upon issues it faces. Forget rational discussion. "Because I said so" has become the dominant US Cultural Paradigm.

      ...and get rid of these gawd damn voting machines. Blackboxvoting.org

      by nyetsoup4you on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:01:02 AM PDT

      •  See the Susskind article in NY Times Magazine (none / 0)

        The neocons claim that it's more subtle than that. They claim that liberals like to study reality, but neocons intend to create reality through their decisive action. So they may be merely indifferent to science and reason, considering them inferior to willful action. I'm reminded of two things. 1) Schopenhauer's suggestive title "The World as Will and Representation"; he supposedly inspired Nietzche, who supposedly inspired the Nazis; and 2) The New Age movement's dictum that "You can create your own reality", not unlike "Follow your bliss". There is a powerful small business self-help correlation to this type of thinking -- "The Power of Positive Thinking". How many small business people inherently adopt the notion (perhaps from Tony Robbins and his ilk) that the only people of consequence are the people who take charge and decide to create their own reality, in the form of business success. Multi-level marketing, especially, feeds this type of thinking - don't listen to the naysayers, You Can Do It! Ignore the facts, the will to succeed is what creates reality.

        by GonDaddy on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 01:04:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Republicans for Education? Hah! (none / 0)

      If America was educated, the current batch of Republicans wouldn't have a chance of holding power.  They would be run out of power instantly.

      Perhaps this is why Bush is all for standardized testing.  They don't ask questions like that on standardized tests...but perhaps they should.  We should force the people we trust with a vote to understand the issues they are voting on.

      I used to know a rethug who claimed the Al Sharptons of the world get all their power from the marginalization of black Americans...that they have no interest in them lifting themselves out of poverty.  

      Oh yeah?  What about the widespread ignorance of the white America that a Bush cynically manipulates with the bald lies on this list in order to shore up his own self-messianic fantasy and the bank accounts of the people who tolerated his idiocy over the years?

      We need to be more aggressive in pushing knowledge on Americans.  Studies like this are a report card on our democracy.  It is not working.

      You can't be on the team, if you're not in the choir. Sorry.

      by peeder on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:01:28 AM PDT

    •  Misinformed because they choose to be... (none / 0)

      While this report shows that Bush supporters are clearly misinformed, it doesn't provide obvious explanations why this is so. It is tempting to draw the conclusion that Bush supporters are dim witted, backward, delusional, or just not paying attention. But we know there are intelligent, educated and well-read Republicans out there. How can they not know what's really going on in the world??? Interestingly enough, the psychological theory of cognitive dissonance suggests that their ignorance isn't by chance...it's by choice.  

      Cognitive dissonance refers to the discomfort felt when there is a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. If we look back, it's not hard to see how the sequence of events in the last four years has created a lot of cognitive dissonance in the minds of many Americans. In the immediate after math of 9/11, many people were left with the impression that Bush was doing an O.K. job. He rallied bipartisan and international support and seemed to be on the right track with the war on terror by going after OBL and al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Before invading Iraq, Americans (and the world) were given a lot of information that seemed to be backed up by credible intelligence and facts. We took our President at his word and though we may have had reservations, felt that there was a reasonable argument for going to war. Now, however, a wealth of recent information has shown that all of the reasons we relied on as justifications for going to war didn't exist. Because this type of cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable, the mind sets about trying to reduce it in one of two ways. Either you accommodate the new information and accept the fact that the President made a colossal mistake and led this nation to war unnecessarily, OR you simply avoid the new information and continue to stand firmly behind your existing belief that he did the right thing and for good reasons.

      Those of us who have never liked Bush and didn't vote for him to begin with have a lot less cognitive dissonance to resolve. In fact, the new information that shows he has blundered simply supports our belief that he didn't deserve to be leading our country in the first place. However, for someone who is/was/has been an avid and enthusiastic supporter of Bush, accepting the fact that he misled and betrayed you is a lot to stomach. It's much easier to stubbornly cling to the belief that your President is a good guy with your best interests at heart than it is to believe that he pulled the wool over your eyes to the tune of billions of dollars and thousands of lives. Unfortunately, in order to do the former, you have to shut your eyes, ears, and mind to all information to the contrary and accept a false reality.  In other words, there is method to their madness.  They CHOOSE to stay uniformed because in their cognitive dissonant minds...ignorance is bliss.  

      "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."--Gandhi

      by H Mac on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:01:30 AM PDT

      •  I think you are right (none / 0)

        I have a sister with an MBA, very bright on many things, but not her politics ( IMHO) She watches FOX news only and firmly believes Bush Knows things about Iraq he can't tell because of national security and he is protecting us. All the people against the war are unpatriotic and making it harder for Bush to defend us. It's good thing all these people hate us around the world. They always have, now it's out in the open and we know who they are, and we can go get 'em. It's open and shut. ( actually, I have to say that true about me and my positions. It's just that mine are right!)I think it invalidates everything she believes if FOX news is found to be misleading her or the president misleads her, so she has to dig her heals in and hang on for dear life.

        We don't talk about Presidential politics much anymore, because it makes everybody crazy.

        Today's problems are yesterday's solutions. Don Beck

        by Sherri in TX on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:22:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe they should (none / 0)

        Try this site?

        http://anti-trend.com/main.htm

        Support citizen journalism, every little bit helps.

        by dlcampbe on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 07:40:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bush supporter response (none / 0)

      I posted this survey on another forum I post on that has a lot of Bush supporters on it.  Most are just wingnuts but one I think is one of those 'real' republicans who knows exactly what's going on. Here is his response:

      ----------------------------------------
      The results of the first question in the survey is just as telling as the entire foreign policy conclusions.

      "Do you think the economy is better or worse off than 1 year ago?"

      70% of Kerry supporters said "worse."

      So it would seem that Kerry supporters are just as "out of touch" about economic issues as the survey contends Bush supporters are about the Iraqi conflict.

      Nice try Bobby...

      The truth is none of this matters. The reality of the situation vis a vis this election is facts don't matter. It is voters' opinions that influence their vote, be it on foreign policy or domestic policy. That's all that matters in the election, what the voters THINK, not what the intellectual elite "know."

      ---------------------------------
      Scary shit.

      by bobbygsu on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:01:44 AM PDT

    •  New Mexico is a foreign country (none / 0)

      These stats reminded me that many, many years ago, either our senators or our representatives (I need to look this up) did a humorous presentation to Congress. They showed, on a map, that New Mexico really is part of the United States, because so many people, including a few congressmen, didn't know that.

      I remember people asking me if I needed a passport when I traveled in the states, as well as asking me "can you drink the water there?"

      AIGGHH, does anyone have a "my head is going to explode" icon for me?


      There is only one "bug killer" that will work on "Oil Maggots"-- Hydrogen. -- edscan

      by Plutonium Page on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:03:18 AM PDT

    •  74% believe Bush supports fair trade (none / 0)

      Man,  Kerry ought to nail it out on this.  This could be tremendously imnportant in the Rust Belt battleground states.  Kerry hit hard on this early in the the campaign, but it seems like the whole discussion has been directed to war and terrorism.  As much as I love the whole outsourcing rant, I'm not sure that it connects with blue collar workers who have lost their jobs.  We all know what it means, but I think that there's a significant portion of the blue collar population that still talks about NAFTA, and trade, and hasn't moved on to the new terminology.  I think that there's a certain blue collar resentment that everybodys pissed now that its the white collar guys (and gals) losing their jobs.  Check this out.  I wonder if Kerry could get Harry Wu to do some speaking with him about the things that go on in the Chinese laogai, gulag, where products are manufactured for the American market.  

      by ManfromMiddletown on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:03:33 AM PDT

    •  Jeez.... (none / 1)

      You'll wonder how they'll be able to load a rifle when they get drafted...

      by magnus on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:04:26 AM PDT

    •  Makes me wonder (none / 0)

      How many Germans were in denial about what the Nazis were doing in Germany?  
      This administration has done such a good job of squelching any dissent that a lot of people  believe that anyone that disagrees with Bush is un-American and unpatriotic.
       Remember Bush has never admits mistakse and a lot of people think that that is a good thing, do you expect those people to admit they are wrong.

      If the majority believe a lie, does that make it the truth?

      by Low Spark on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:06:18 AM PDT

      •  Oh no, the Nazis were mentioned! (none / 0)

        How many Germans were in denial about what the Nazis were doing in Germany?

        Most of them. Actually, I'd put them in two categories: outright denial or willful ignorance. They either had heard the truth and refused to believe it was possible, or simply buried their collective heads in the sand and hoped it wasn't really true because the reality of it would be too horrible to admit to themselves.

        Edmund Burke, a philosopher and politician from 18th century England, wrote "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Truer words were never spoken.

        by mstefan on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:19:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  George Lakoff and families (none / 0)

      This confirm's George Lakoff's (required reading: "Don't think of an elephant") theory that people are voting for Bush because of moral identification rather than facts. People are voting for the "tough Dad" or "strict father". Doesn't matter if the tough Dad is abusive.

      The "Under" part of the billboard is another clear sign. It is saying "We are part of the  strict father system with God on top and the rest of us need to be obedient. And by the way, after God we have to be obedient to our President"

      My personal theory is the most of us are just trying to recreate our family in the context of politics. Bush supporters just want to be "good boys and good girls". I think liberals fall into this trap at times--we want someone who is going take care of us--even if policies actually hurt us.

      by pbsloop on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:09:28 AM PDT

    •  LTEs anyone? (none / 0)

      Has anyone noticed how little coverage the PIPA report has been getting? This is news, you guys ... it's concrete, nonpartisan evidence that the election is only as close as it is because of people's misunderstanding of the facts.

      It's not that the majority of Bush followers are uninformed or ignorant; I think they're just following their hearts. They are (mainly) good-hearted patriots who really want to believe in their president and take what he says at face value. When they hear the news presenting facts to the contrary, I think many of these folks fall into the "fair-and-balanced" mindset, which says: OK, that's the left wing, unpatriotic, partisan side. I already know our side, and we're right.

      But honestly, who's responsible for this misunderstanding? We have a free press in this country, dammit, and they need to do their job.

      Do not ask for a word's meaning; look at its use.

      by cmlorenz on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:11:54 AM PDT

      •  What in the world are you talking about? (none / 0)

        We have a free press in this country, dammit, and they need to do their job.

        Where did you get the idea that we have a free press in the United States? The "press" has been controlled by special interests and multinational media corporations for years. If you're looking towards a so-called free press to provide the electorate with information about what's going on in the world, you're putting your faith in a corrupt and morally bankrupt institution.

        A twenty dollar street prostitute has more ethics and integrity than our mainstream press does. And at least with her, you're actually getting what you pay for.

        by mstefan on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:10:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  What I love about this... (none / 0)

      75% believe Iraq was providing substantial support to al Queda

      but

      60% believe that most experts believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Queda.

      Which means at least 15% of Bush supporters are running around, convinced that Iraq was providing support to al Queda, even though they KNOW that the experts say they weren't.

      What a bunch of assholes...

      Embrace Hope
      Barack Obama: Putting the "U" back in "USA"

      by GrimReefa on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:12:41 AM PDT

    •  ill-informed voters (none / 0)

      these voters are ill-informed because bush/cheney kept lying to them over and over again.  how many times did we hear bs coming from this administration?  i think if by some miracle they get a second term.. it is because the public at large thinks that al-queda = iraq... all due to the lies of this admin.

      eric

      No more Bush!

      by esherard8 on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:13:59 AM PDT

    •  I Saw These Figures Somewhere Yesterday (none / 0)

      And at the end of the story, the writer said that with such spectacular ignorance on the part the electorate of a democratic nation, it will be impossible to win a campaign with a fact-based argument.  The implications for the future of such a system of government are pretty grim.

      "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

      "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

      by JJB on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:14:51 AM PDT

    •  USA Today says issues are not important (none / 0)

      Just read my Newsmax article on the new ad featuring Ashley the 9-11 victim.

      "In a year when voters in key states have been inundated with political commercials, the ad stands out because it is so different from most other ads," USA Today reported. "It neither attacks anyone nor runs down a list of issues or promises."  

      Wow- so it doesn't talk about issues and that is a good thing!!!

      by pbsloop on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:21:35 AM PDT

    •  What do you expect... (none / 0)

      These are exactly the talking points of Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh - Imagine that they believe these folks as the "gospel" of GWB!

      Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

      by dvogel001 on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:28:36 AM PDT

    •  confused repubs might grasp this... (none / 0)

      ...satirical presidency test on which W scores an "F." This could perhaps get the message across to the misinformed and simple-minded.

      Help send troop care packages from Netroots Nation: Netroots for the Troops

      by roses on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:29:40 AM PDT

    •  Thank You American Media... (none / 0)


       Dear American Media:  

       Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank  you.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank  you. Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.     Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank  you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank  you. Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.    Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank  you.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank  you. Thank you.    Thank you.  Thank you.     Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.   Thank you.  Thank  you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.   Thank you.   Thank you. Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank  you. Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.    Thank you.

      With deepest, thanks, I remain,

       Your faithful Master --

      Karl Rove

      P.S. -  Thank you.

             

      "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

      by BenGoshi on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:38:49 AM PDT

    •  Flyer (none / 0)

      This is a great flyer. What would you recomend to print on the other side?

      Clinton Stopped a mass murderer: Bush became one.

      by thylacine on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:54:00 AM PDT

    •  I prefer... (none / 0)

      to call them the Fantasy-based Community.

      by Cherie on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:55:43 AM PDT

      •  Reality impaired (none / 0)

        Fact challenged

        Truth avoiding

        MORONS!

        The Permanent Republican Majority lasted about as long as The Thousand Year Reich

        by lawnorder on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:00:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Tax Cut Fever (none / 0)

        I am now aghast over the latest news I have read.  The Republicans are supposedly irate over the low rate of taxes that Teresa Heinz Kerry pays.  
        Hello!!!!
        Dumbass people, you are the ones who voted for the tax cuts.  What do you think that Kerry has been talking about for the past 12 months when he says that the tax cuts were indeed geared to the rich.  He and his wive are rich, they admit that, and know how much the tax cuts reduced their burden.
        Do these people have no morals whatsoever?  Are they that delusional they are now trying to blame Teresa for paying the taxes on the low rate that W wanted?

        When they all start getting in line for their kool-aid you can count me out.

        Stagflation, here we come

        by smoosh21 on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 10:13:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bush Senators also misinformed (none / 0)

      As kos reminded us today...
      U.S. Sen. Jim Bunning (KY) said yesterday that he was unaware of reports that a unit of Army Reserve soldiers in Iraq had refused an order to deliver fuel for reasons including that their trucks were lightly armored.

      When reporters told him that the unit's refusal was a national news story and involved a soldier from Louisville, Bunning said, "Let me explain something: I don't watch the national news, and I don't read the paper. I haven't done that for the last six weeks. I watch Fox News to get my information."

      The Permanent Republican Majority lasted about as long as The Thousand Year Reich

      by lawnorder on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 11:58:04 AM PDT

    •  no excuse (none / 0)

      You know, it's not even the media's fault.  Bush supporters do not care to know the truth.  I just pointed out to someone a lie Rush told him and he repeated to me.  I proved it was a lie - very easily.  Rush said Clinton was stumping in Pennsylvania because PA is not even a battleground anymore.  Clinton is campaigning there, where it won't do any good because (of course) he wants Hillary to run in 2008.

      I showed him news articles of Kerry and Clinton going to PA, and I showed him articles about Bush ALSO campaigning in PA THIS WEEK because it is a BATTLEGROUND.

      Sure, it's a minor point, but he doesn't even care.  He doesn't care that Rush lies to him.  He doesn't care that he's not informed.  He just wants to listen to one side and he wants Bush to win.

      If Bush wins, I will truly blame all these stupid, selfish people who didn't care enough about their country to try to even be remotely informed.  They are seriously making me ill now, and they have no excuse other than their own lack of patiotism.

      Help end world hunger by providing rice to hungry people for free.

      by OLinda on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:07:28 PM PDT

    •  read Bush on the Couch (none / 0)

      If you read Justin Frank's Bush on the Couch: Inside the Mind of the President, you'll get a good idea of why the public chooses to ignore the weaknesses in the man. As others have mentioned, the herd of sheep known as Bush supporters seeks someone that is, on the surface at least, "a regular guy." Frank's theory is that Bush's route to success is unattainable to the general public (his business "fortune" and political power is derived from wealth, power and connections, not intellect or merit-based), so people are don't feel competitive with him. The fact that he believes and presents himself as some sort of deity and father-figure is a draw for some people in this post-9/11 insecure world. They simply don't see his shortcomings -- they don't want to.

      In contrast, regular-guy Clinton, Frank points out, is a man from humble beginnings. Big Dog's intellect and ambition (no questions the man's book smarts) is viewed by many people as someone to compete with, that they cannot measure up to his merit-based success -- and thus this Bush-leaning public resents him and is intimidated. [Of course Big Bill gave the moralists a whole other reason to hate him as well, but that's another matter.]

      It's a scary book on many levels, actually. If any journalists bothered to pick this up and read it, they'd have enough information to ask some probing questions of the man and his motivations for getting us into the Iraq mess.

      Pam's House Blend

      www.pamshouseblend.com | Pandagon

      by pamindurham on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 12:18:17 PM PDT

      •  Never Understood (none / 0)

        I've never understood this whole wanting a "regular guy" for president thing. I was thinking about this yesterday too when all the pictures of Kerry duck hunting were flying around to help his "image problem".

        I don't want a president as stupid as the rest of America! I want the absolute smartest guy (or chick) on the planet to be president -- the one who can solve world peace, feed all the poor and figure out how to make America endlessly prosperous, educated and healthy.

        Too high of an expectation? Sure, but I don't see the point in aiming low.

        I'm a big Clinton fan, but I don't want someone who can "feel my pain". I want someone who can solve our problems. I don't care if the president is "great to drink beer with" or even "likeable" if he can keep my kids from getting killed or being saddled with an unprecedented debt.

        And I don't for the life of my get people who say "I'm voting for Bush because he has good character". Who gives a flying fig, if the guy is as dumb as a rock.

        When the campaign first started I was voting against Bush. As I've learned more, I'm now someone voting for Kerry. Why -- because he's the only smart one running to be president, and I don't need him to have a beer with me, watch the Cards beat the Sox or serve me Duck to know it.

        "We shall meet again . . . in the place where there is no darkness."

        by mjo on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 01:31:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you have to wonder... (none / 0)

          I'm riding home listening to NPR and they were interviewing a Hispanic NM resident who  uncharacteristically is planning to vote for Bush (according to the polls that group's 2 to 1 Dem). His reasoning sounds just like the most of the rest of the sheep. Paraphrasing: "He has good moral character and he has the same kind of family values about wife and children...a man and a woman and marriage." Bush's a regular God-fearing guy.

          There you have it. Kerry is simply a godless, hedonistic, anti-family anti-Christ that these people cannot imagine supporting.

          Wonder what this New Mexico resident will be thinking if Bush wins and they draft his ass. What's moral about sending the country's children off to die in Iraq, and causing all the carnage and death there?

          Pam's House Blend

          www.pamshouseblend.com | Pandagon

          by pamindurham on Fri Oct 22, 2004 at 01:47:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Bush supporters (none / 0)

      Hmm...what does this sound like?

      "Characteristics of a Destructive Cult"

      Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top

      Charismatic or messianic leader(s) (Messianic meaning they either say they are God OR that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended.....the leaders are self-appointed.)

      Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising

      solation from society -- not necessarily physical isolation like on some compound in Waco, but this can be psychological isolation -- the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed (whatever) -- the only valid source of feedback and information is the group

      Use of mind control techniques

      Milieu Control: Control of the environment and communication within the environment

      Mystical Manipulation: Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion. Leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out a mystical imperative. The cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment)

      Demand for Purity: The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) one must continually change or conform to the group "norm"; tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group's controlling and manipulative influences

      Confession: Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change

      S