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US failed to secure Iraq explosives

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Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:36:37 PM PST

Josh gives us the gist of the story that will be top of the fold on the Washington Post New York Times Monday morning:
Some 350 tons of high explosives (RDX and HMX), which were under IAEA seal while Saddam was in power, were looted during the early days of the US occupation. Like so much else, it was just left unguarded.

Not only are these super-high-yield explosives probably being used in many, if not most, of the various suicide and car bombings in Iraq, but these particular explosives are ones used in the triggering process for nuclear weapons.

In other words, it's bad stuff.

What also emerges in the Nelson Report is that the Defense Department has been trying to keep this secret for some time. The DOD even went so far as to order the Iraqis not to inform the IAEA that the materials had gone missing. Informing the IAEA, of course, would lead to it becoming public knowledge in the United States.

This is rank incompetence that has directly resulted in the deaths of hundreds of our men and women in uniform, as well as other allied and innocent Iraqis.

And a coverup attempt to top it all off. If Josh is right, the Post is just the first of many papers tackling this explosive issue. (No pun intended.)

Update: The story has been posted online. This one is big, folks.

The Iraqi interim government has warned the United States and international nuclear inspectors that nearly 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives - used to demolish buildings, produce missile warheads and detonate nuclear weapons - are missing from one of Iraq's most sensitive former military installations.

The huge facility, called Al Qaqaa, was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no-man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Saturday. United Nations weapons inspectors had monitored the explosives for many years, but White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished after the American invasion last year [...]

American weapons experts say their immediate concern is that the explosives could be used in major bombing attacks against American or Iraqi forces: the explosives, mainly HMX and RDX, could be used to produce bombs strong enough to shatter airplanes or tear apart buildings. The bomb that brought down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988 used less than a pound of the material of the type stolen from Al Qaqaa, and somewhat larger amounts were apparently used in the bombing of a housing complex in November 2003 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and the blasts in a Moscow apartment complex in September 1999 that killed nearly 300 people.

The explosives could also be used to trigger a nuclear weapon, which was why international nuclear inspectors had kept a watch on the material. But the other components of an atom bomb - the design and the radioactive fuel - are more difficult to obtain. "This is a high explosives risk, but not necessarily a proliferation risk," one senior Bush administration official said.

The International Atomic Energy Agency publicly warned about the danger of these explosives before the war, and after the invasion it specifically told United States officials about the need to keep the explosives secured, European diplomats said in interviews last week.

380 tons. Less than one pound was used to bring down Pan Am Flight 103. The terrorists hit the mother lode, all thanks to Bush.
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  •  Freepers react to NYT bombshell (4.00 / 8)

    Just did an extended browse through the messages reacting to the NYT story.

    The Freepers seem unsettled, even scared:

    IS this good or bad for Bush?

    5 posted on 10/24/2004 7:22:48 PM PDT by tdice7

    --

    We need to get on this one fast, people. Start smearing the NYT, smear the reporter, and focus on the WMD angle. This could be bad...reinforces the dem media narrative that we didn't plan the war carefully. We need to silence this, fast! WHERE'S OUR SURPRISE!!??!!??

    14 posted on 10/24/2004 7:26:32 PM PDT by johannes89a

    --

    The only thing that the MSM will take from this is "it disappeared after the invasion." No one will ask the other questions about Saddam having this or what he intended to do with it or if it was safe to just permit Saddam to stay in power possessing it, etc. Nope, this will all be about "Bush guarded the oil ministry but not the explosives."

    SPIT

    19 posted on 10/24/2004 7:27:26 PM PDT by Petronski (On the land in the air on the sea, let's swing out to Victory. --Fats Waller

    --

     Two points are made

     1) not enough troops or planning were provided for nation building
     2) the Administration attempted to hide the loss from the IAEA - apparently for political reasons

     The first point is just beating a dead horse. The second...?
    28 posted on 10/24/2004 7:29:42 PM PDT by liberallarry
    [ Post Reply  | Private Reply  | To 1  | View Replies  | Report Abuse

    --

    nothing new to see here lets move on now
    w2004
    ciao

    36 posted on 10/24/2004 7:30:47 PM PDT by italianquaker (CATHOLIC AND I VOTE)
     [ Post Reply  | Private Reply  | To 1  | View Replies  | Report Abuse ]

    --

    The administration has known this would probably be coming.. I'm sure they have something in the can ready to go.

    I expect this story to be turned on it's head by Monday night.

    41 posted on 10/24/2004 7:31:18 PM PDT by Josh in PA
    [ Post Reply  | Private Reply  | To 29  | View Replies  | Report Abuse ]

    --

     Oh,...well, I guess we now wait and see what the other newspaper, reported today, is writing...I believe it is the Washington Post, front page story by Mowbray...either way...just don't think this is something that can hurt Bush..it happened and now we an entrenched....God I can't wait for this election to get over with...TOO much negatives and not enough gelling together to support our soldiers and fight the bad guys....This is another reason I do not feel this article is going to hurt much....WE ARE TIRED of hit pieces on our President!!!!
    47 posted on 10/24/2004 7:34:00 PM PDT by IndianPrincessOK (Native American pleading for Truth!)
     [ Post Reply  | Private Reply  | To 22  | View Replies  | Report Abuse ]

    --

    Any news organization or "reporter" that breaks an october surprise story this week should be given the egg treatment.

    62 posted on 10/24/2004 7:36:01 PM PDT by samadams2000 ("Did they get you to trade, your heroes for ghosts")
     [ Post Reply  | Private Reply  | To 42  | View Replies  | Report Abuse ]

    •  Pathetic. (3.50 / 4)

      They want to smear the reporter? What a bunch of assholes.

      "But Democrats mustn't give up the fight. What's at stake isn't just the fate of their party, but the fate of America as we know it."-Paul Krugman

      by theprogressivemiddle on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:42:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree (4.00 / 5)

        They don't even seem to care that this administration's incompetence is getting the soldiers, whom they claim to respect sooo much, killed.  Cheneytards.

        My reality may not conform to your ideology. Visit Delaware Liberal.

        by Unstable Isotope on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:46:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Excellent, excellent point. (none / 0)

          "But Democrats mustn't give up the fight. What's at stake isn't just the fate of their party, but the fate of America as we know it."-Paul Krugman

          by theprogressivemiddle on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:51:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Good point. Who supports the troops? (none / 1)

          Guess THEY don't

          They only support the troops'right to kill Muslims.

          •  Oh, they support the troops... (4.00 / 4)

            albeit from a very great distance.

            Amory Lovins: "Coal can fill the real gaps in our fuel economy....." IPCC: Anthropogenic greenhouse gases will cause extinction of up to 70% of species by 2050.

            by Plan9 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:17:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Joe Republican (4.00 / 2)

            A Typical Day For A Bush Lover! (from Yahoo boards)

            9:45: Wake up

            10AM: Log onto an internet message board, make fun of soldiers who want to come home, calling them gay from the comfort of the computer in mom's basement.

            10:15AM: Hear news of Bush's latest FVCKUP and immediately decide that it was Kerry's fault!!

            12:30PM: On the way to Dairy Queen for the hourly sundae, pass by the Veterans hospital, and not even give it a passing glance.

            1:28: Steal the change out of the cup of a legless sleeping vet

            2:35: Call in to the local fat and lonely radio conservative's show and give the thumbs up to the president for the phenomenal job of cutting veterans benefits...while the "support our troops" sticker flakes off the back of the old 87 Dodge.

            3:15: Mom brings down lunch. Down it with a milkshake and some oxy.

            5:38: Tune into the Fox News channel for some fair and balanced reporting. Word has it 3 troops died in a roadside bombing in Fallujah, 7 injured. Being a patriotic news station, they aren't
            showing the death and destruction and being all negative like those Commies over at the BBC.

            8:15: Mom calls out for dinner.

            9:30: Reads about soldiers being disciplined for daring to criticize the great great war, and not having enough bullet proof vests to go around, and having their mail censored, and the constant stomach flu, and all other kinds of gay complaints only a liberal queer could make. Logs on to Free Republic to rant about it.

            10:30: Fall asleep dreaming about Ann Coulter

            To Libertarians: People who spent the last 8 years in a coma have not earned the right to be taken seriously.

            by lawnorder on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 12:41:05 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  That is easy (none / 1)

          because it's not their butts in harms way.  Easy for them to puff up their chest and talk tough on a computer half a word away.
        •  The George Bush Suicide Cult (none / 1)

          These guys aren't Republicans, they're Branch Davidians.  This distinction could be very useful us now and after the election.  

          Tom Frank was a pseudo that I coined before I found out about that guy who writes books.

          by Tom Frank on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:37:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. Smear and silence. (4.00 / 4)

        Obviously, refuting things is outside their skill level

        Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say... (from "Creatures of Light and Darkness", R. Zelazny)

        by SadEagle on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:47:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Under seal (none / 1)


        Petronski doesn 't seem to understand the meaning of under seal, that this was secured so it could only be used for legit purposes.  It wasn't being used by Iraq to harm anyone.

         Not it is being used to kill Americans and Iraqis.

         They really need to just admit that Bush totally screwed up.   This was predicted by State Department planning groups and there were warnings from the military, but they didn't have any plan to prevent looting.  

        •  was the seal just a piece of yellow tape? (none / 0)

          "She has the name recognition, the money, the glitz, she's got it all." Terry McAuliffe

          by naufragus on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:36:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Rummie's Shock and Awe (none / 0)

          Covering large territories, with a few troops, and worse yet, very fast... Pratically GUARANTEED looting.

          There was an article on USA Today about a 2002 Pentagon Report warning of just that: rapid movement through large distances with few troops would cause WMD to be left unguarded and subject to theft.

          Rummie & Co ignored it, as always.

          To Libertarians: People who spent the last 8 years in a coma have not earned the right to be taken seriously.

          by lawnorder on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 12:45:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for reading (3.66 / 3)

      So we don't have to! :)

      My reality may not conform to your ideology. Visit Delaware Liberal.

      by Unstable Isotope on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:47:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Freeper morons (4.00 / 4)

      Notice that all their comments have nothing to do with the accoutability, responsibility, or outrage at the news. Instead they are focused on:

      1. How do we cover this up?
      2. Smear the messengers!

      If the report had to do with some revelation that Bush murdered Laura and buried her in the Rose Garden, they'd also resort to #1 and #2.
      •  freeping freepers (none / 1)

        Freeping freepers.  

        Let's Freep the freeping freepers back to freeperville!

        (sorry had a smurfy moment there)

        "I just can't stop myself"

        by circuithead on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:54:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Beeeeeeeeat the Freeper! (none / 1)

          Does anyone else immediately think of the Firesign Theater skit "Beat the Reaper!" when they hear this?  I've had it stuck in my head all week, and finally had to just play the cd.

          Is what I am doing *right now* leading to happiness?

          by jbdigriz on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:15:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  i want freep! (none / 0)

              hehehe.  every time i see freepers, or hear the word 'freep', i think of an old bugs bunny cartoon (high diving hare?) with yosemite sam and bugs bunny- the basic plot being that sam is at the circus to see the amazing fearless freep jump off the extra-high dive into a glass of water; freep never shows up; sam attempts to draft bugs into taking the dive, and naturally sam is the eventual diver.
              but the dialogue that always comes to mind: 'where's freep?  i want freep!  feeeeeeearless freep!'  
              yeah, immature, but a fond memory of childhood completely applicable to modern politics.  these people are the collective political embodiment of yosemite sam.
          •  Actually, Blue Oyster Cult (none / 0)

            Dont Fear the Freeper

            "Why you gotta act like you know when you don't know?" - Ben Folds

            by RNinNC on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 05:20:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  FT references (none / 0)

            I think of the phrase "Don't take off your shoes. Jobs is on the way" from 'dwarf' every time I go through airport security.

            Freedom does not march. I saw an invasion. I see an occupation. I don't see a war. "Constant war is not a family value." Cindy Sheehan 8/22/05

            by ex republican on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 06:47:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Some insight, though. (none / 1)

        At FR we can see the Republican meme-in-the-making process.

        a. The materials could have disappeared under Saddam.
        b. Iraq was full of explosives anyway.
        c. This proves there were WMD after all.
        d. If the IAEA thought it was dangerous they should have taken it out themselves (!).

        And so forth. Just some talking points to watch out for.

    •  What conceivable smear of a reporter (none / 1)

      could possibly put a dent in the FACT that, once again, BushCo blew it ?

      I must be dreaming...

      by murphy on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:06:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Let me get this straight: (4.00 / 3)

      "United Nations weapons inspectors had monitored the explosives for many years, but White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished after the American invasion last year"

      So in other words, the UN had effectively monitored the explosives.  Then when the war started, everything got so FUBAR that the explosives were lost?  

      •  Yep (4.00 / 2)

        That's pretty much it, except that they've been missing since April 2003 (if I recall TPM's article) and the administration LIED about it to the UN.

        Absolutely amazing, isn't it?

        PS - If I may be bold enough to slightly edit your sig line...

        1. Invade Iraq
        2. ?????
        3. Democracy!
        4. Profit!!!
         (sorry - too much time reading Slashdot)

        "McCain's economic plan - marry a younger, richer country."

        by themis on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:28:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  that's pretty much (none / 1)

        what the article says!  And, that the missing explosives (all 380 tons--wow!) create an almost limitless supply for insurgents to use to blow up US military Humvees and for car bombings and the like.  These explosives are being used against US troops and Iraqi civilians.... Pretty FUBAR.

        But the UN was so, you know ... Old Europe.

      •  "God told me to invade Iraq" (none / 1)

        Some god you have there Bush, you have fucked up everything possible.  Lost weapons, an insurgency on par with the viet cong, Chalabi taking you for an Iranian ride, "control" of like 5% of Iraq, 50 dead iraqi recruits found today, 1100+ soldiers dead, 15,000 innocent civillians dead (thats 5 9/11's!), torture from Saddam's own handbook, the world hates us, terrorists are recruiting at a record rate, etc.

        And they actually said "Cakewalk" and "they would be throwing flowers at us."

      •  Let me get this straight, #2....... (none / 0)

        So.....when Clinton was President, this explosive material was safely secured.

        But under Bush, this material was left unguarded and is now being used to kill American troops.

        Got it.

        *How could 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?*

        by clueless on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:44:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  How in the HELL (none / 0)

        Can Bushco EVER reconcile these two statements into a coherent response:
        Before the war, inspectors with the Vienna-based IAEA had kept tabs on the so-called "dual use" explosives because they could have been used to detonate a nuclear weapon.

        AND THIS
        Bush's national security adviser, Condoleeza Rice, was informed of the missing explosives in the past month, the report said.

        What did Condi THINK was happening to the weapons all this time. It is clearly common knowledge that they existed before the war, and Condi is only JUST NOW becoming 'informed' of this information? Our National Security Adviser didnt know all along that something THIS DANGEROUS had occurred SOOO demonstrably?

        It's beyond all reason. Im out of adjectives to describe the level of incompetence that has been reached. Truly, I'll need a thesaurus to go on.

        "Why you gotta act like you know when you don't know?" - Ben Folds

        by RNinNC on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 05:29:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Ugh... (none / 1)

      Laughable, but not unexpected. My favorite, for its succinctness:
      nothing new to see here lets move on now w2004
      No, it sadly isn't anything new. And I, along with the rest of the nation, will take your advice on November 2nd.
    •  here's something to freep (none / 0)

      the article on yahoo news.

      http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20041025/ap_o n_re_mi_ea/nuclear_agency_iraq

      vote!

      There is NO angle to this story other than Bush is fucking incompetent. The best thing we can do is keep this shit on the front page of every newspaper every day until the election.

      Where are your priorities Mr. President?

      Everybody LTE!

    •  CLINTON 'S APPEARANCE WILL ENERGIZE STORY (none / 0)

      Bill Clinton's big appearance later today has been much anticipated by the press.  They have been waiting for months to see him come out.  Today Kerry will get way above average coverage because the big dawg has come out.  As a result this story, which is giant anyway, will be even greater.  It is a haearbreaking demonstration of this Administrations profound incompetence.

      Keep the Faith, Vote, and Never Give Up!

  •  This may be the October Surprise (4.00 / 4)

    ...going the opposite direction..

    I think Kerry needs to hammer this point of incompetence and deception for therest of th time til the election... when he talked about Iraq after the 1st debate.. his #'s went up... when he stopped and went to economy.. his #;s stalled

    All Iraq incompetence.. all the time John.

    •  Dead soliders (none / 1)

      it is not just incompetence
      •  Exactly... Watergate 2 anyone? (none / 1)

        ..and the fact that its a big coverup to hide the incompetence... and shall I say it.. criminal negligence for political reasons.
      •  Dead soldiers, indeed. (none / 0)

        Check out this article from the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies, entitled "RDX & IEDs: The Deadly Duet":
        Of all the weapons that the militants possess, IEDs, coupled with explosives like RDX, pose the greatest danger to human and material security due to the ease with which they can be made, planted and blasted.
        ...
        RDX has a high explosive potential, is light, and is also malleable which allows its transport without suspicion. Though RDX is a military explosive and cannot be procured commercially, the external support to various militant groups in Kashmir makes it easy for them to obtain it. Almost all the militant-related IED incidents in Kashmir have used RDX. The combination of RDX-IED in Kashmir increased during the second half of the 1990s. Reliance on RDX will continue and is certain to become a major strategy for the militants. In fact, militants groups in the North East seem to be shifting to RDX, instead of other explosives.

        Given the easy availability of explosives and, appreciating the external involvement in providing RDX to militant and criminal groups, and the simple process involved in making an IED, the RDX-IED combination will be the real problem in the coming years; more so than the AK-47s in the hands of the militants.

        There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. --Benjamin Disraeli, cited by Mark Twain

        by sheba on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:56:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (none / 1)

      Most polls show Kerry has had a substantial lead on Bush on domestic issues from after the primary.

      It's Iraq that is first and foremost on everyone's minds and what most divides everyone. Iraq is nothing but bad news for Bush and Kerry needs to attack him constantly on his mismanagement of it. The very real costs of which are rising casualties with no end in sight.

    •  Surprise! (none / 1)

      Bush is incompetent and the war was a disaster.
      •  THis wont play well in states with military (none / 1)

        ...how would you feel if you government forgot to secure this.. and then decided not to tell anyone about it after they screwed up?

        Virginia is one of those states wih a military base or 2 isnt it?? Or am I thinking of NC

        Either way.. I think some of your boys might take a long hard look at who they are voting for after this story makes the rounds.

        •  Largest military base in the world (none / 0)

          is in Southeastern Virginia.  It's actually a conglomeration of bases, big ones like the Norfolk Naval Amphib base, and the Oceana Naval Air Station, to smaller ones like Langly Air Force Base and a really really old Fort Monroe.  Tons of big ships are based in Norfolk.

          -Fred

          Democrats *do* have a plan for Social Security - it's called Social Security. -- Ed Schultz

          by FredFred on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:53:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  they need to run an ad in areas like norfolk (none / 0)

            ship yards and the like- this will be devasting for bush- they dont even need to target the whole state- i grew up there- they places to go are norfolk, cheaspeake etc- where the military bases are- maybe a few local markets else where too- like i said this could be devasting there- and i got to say THIS PISSES ME OFF- i got a cousin in the military and this is unacceptable- period. these guys have got to go.
          •  Even MORE Military There (none / 0)

            Newport News has Fort Eustis, huge army base. Also there's the US Coast Guard training center in Yorktown. Naval Weapons Station in Yorktown. Newport News Shipbuilding, Norfolk Shipbuilding, and Camp Pendleton State Military Reservation.

            I grew up in Newport News, lots of military and even MORE military support civilians.

            I just hope the light comes on these guys minds in time for most of them to vote John Kerry.

            "Why you gotta act like you know when you don't know?" - Ben Folds

            by RNinNC on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 06:05:12 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Bases here in NC (none / 0)

          Camp Lejeune--Marines.  Ft. Bragg--Army.  Sign on the lawn down the street from me:  "Support President Bush and Our Troops".  Sorry, can't do both.

          I'm not me minus anything; I'm me plus this experience. ...Michael J. Fox

          by Mlle Orignalmale on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:44:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And Also (none / 0)

            Pope AFB, Seymour Johnson AFB, Cherry Point Marine Base, and New River Marine Base.
            All ready to see the righteous path AFTER all and vote Democratic!

            "Why you gotta act like you know when you don't know?" - Ben Folds

            by RNinNC on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 06:09:00 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  OCTOBER SURPRISE IT IS (none / 0)

      This and the Flu Shots.  Both Break for Kerry.  Both break my heart because lots of Americans are going to die as a result.

      760,000 pounds of high explosives missing...and just one pound of the stuff was used to bring down Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie.  

      This story has legs, everyone of us has a duty to keep this the main issue for the next week.

      Regarding flu shots - the National Vaccine Act was passed in 1986 basically eliminating liability for vaccine manufacturers.

      Keep the Faith, Vote, and Never Give Up!

  •  I am stunned. (none / 0)

    I can hardly "compute" this it is so outrageous, scary bad really.

    Just how immoral are these people??
    There is no answer, cause there is no word for this kind of betrayal of the troops.

    WAR CRIMES
    IMPEACHABLE

    The families of the dead soldiers will not give this one a pass.

    •  Stunned ain't the half of it . . . (4.00 / 3)

      But the Bush administration would not allow the agency back into the country to verify the status of the stockpile. In May 2004, Iraqi officials say in interviews, they warned L. Paul Bremer III, the American head of the occupation authority, that Al Qaqaa had probably been looted. It is unclear if that warning was passed anywhere. Efforts to reach Mr. Bremer by telephone were unsuccessful. But by that time, the Americans were preoccupied with the transfer of authority to Iraq, and the insurgency was gaining strength. "It's not an excuse," said one senior administration official. "But a lot of things went by the boards."

      Holy Cheese and Rice. A lot of things went by the boards.

      Speechless.

  •  Leading... (none / 0)

    Leading tomorrow's NYTimes, too......Big? I think so...
  •  Bombshell (4.00 / 3)

    In May, an internal I.A.E.A. memorandum warned that terrorists might be helping "themselves to the greatest explosives bonanza in history."
    •  man (none / 1)

      How many Americans are going to die because of the DOD coverup? Can Bush be fucking up this war even more?  Let them have their theocracy and pull out. Im sick of the corruption, the dead soldiers, the dead civillians, and this war of lies.

      No minor discount on oil or protecting Tel Aviv is worth this.

      Whatever. Both sides are going to spin this to their advantage, while 380 TONS of expolsives which are about 2x more powerful than dynamite are all over that country and making its way to just about anywhere.

      Time to string up Wolfowitz, Feith, Rummy, Bush, Cheney, Powell, etc.

      •  Now I understand (none / 0)

        It's no wonder BushCo have prevented US membership in the International Criminal Court at The Hague.  Bush in the dock - there's a nice image.

        "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

        by fishhead on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:02:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Please... (2.50 / 2)

        A few points.
        First, as more people die and as more facts come out, I am afraid that we will find that Bush & Co. are already guilty of far worse that we will ever want to know.
        Second, the problems with the "discount on oil" are actually good for the U.S. The world is running out of oil, and high prices now just give us more time to retool than business as usual would have done. We need to get off of oil ASAP and let China pay the high prices as it develops. Kerry understands this.
        Third, NOTHING about this war protects Tel Aviv. The whole Iraq operation begins and ends with a fundamental misunderstanding of the Middle East. Anyone that thinks that policies that make millions of Arabs hate us is going to somehow help Israel is as out of touch with objective reality as the administration is.

        Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

        by drybones on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:31:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  As out of touch with objective reality as GW (none / 1)

          Yep.

          Perle, Wolfowitz were described exactly like that.

          To Libertarians: People who spent the last 8 years in a coma have not earned the right to be taken seriously.

          by lawnorder on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 12:53:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Dont lie to yourself (none / 1)

          I quote PNAC, you know the crown jewel of the Neocon movemovent:
          In particular, we want to commend you for your strong stance in support of the Israeli government as it engages in the present campaign to fight terrorism. As a liberal democracy under repeated attack by murderers who target civilians, Israel now needs and deserves steadfast support. This support, moreover, is essential to Israel's continued survival as a free and democratic nation, for only the United States has the power and influence to provide meaningful assistance to our besieged ally. And with the memory of the terrorist attack of September 11 still seared in our minds and hearts, we Americans ought to be especially eager to show our solidarity in word and deed with a fellow victim of terrorist violence.

          No one should doubt that the United States and Israel share a common enemy. We are both targets of what you have correctly called an "Axis of Evil." Israel is targeted in part because it is our friend, and in part because it is an island of liberal, democratic principles -- American principles -- in a sea of tyranny, intolerance, and hatred. As Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld has pointed out, Iran, Iraq, and Syria are all engaged in "inspiring and financing a culture of political murder and suicide bombing" against Israel, just as they have aided campaigns of terrorism against the United States over the past two decades. You have declared war on international terrorism, Mr. President. Israel is fighting the same war.

          The major Jewish lobbies supported the war in Iraq.  

          Hey look another PNAC letter about I/P.

          Whoops!

          Im sick of the right and left co-opting this war. Its not about WMD or freedom.  The left (at least some of it) cheerleader for this war because it would protect israel. And both parties, including you, are naive enough to think that illegal aggression would equal lower oil prices. Amazing. Dont they teach seconday and hidden costs in school anymore? If you want war in the mideast and PNAC like policies please vote Bush as Kerry wants CAFE standards up by 50% in a decade and will take us off foreign oil.  Bush is your man, Kerry isnt. Also, Kerry has a conscience and might not be so nice in the UN and may not give 15 million dollars a day to Israel to they can continue their apartheid wall and killings not to mention their massive nuclear program.  

          I know youre not supposed to talk about Israel, Zionist exremism, how fundamentalism fuels settlements, Israel's secret WMD program, etc in America. But I've never been big on self-censorship. Hopefully the fall of Bush means a Palestianian state and peace in the mideast, regardless of your greedy need to have 10 cents off the price of gas in 50 years.

          Keep that head in the sand! Its been working so far. We've lost all three branches of government!

          •  Were you sober... (none / 0)

            ...when you read my post? How the HELL do you extrapolate support for the war to lower oil prices from "we need get off oil ASAP"?
            As to Israel, the insane blatherings of the PNAC have nothing to do with the fact that the war in Iraq has nothing to make Israel more secure. My whole point was that the neocon insanity makes the situation there far worse, not better. But your post clearly indicates that, to you, the neocon support of Israel removes the country's right to exist. Guilt by association. Very nice.
            You clearly have no comprehension of what it is to live under the constant threat of terror for your entire life. Go and live there for a few years and see then if you are so eager to judge.
            Oh, and due to your grievous lack of attention and poor comprehension of the English language,  you have misplaced a troll rating, which I hereby return to you.

            Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

            by drybones on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 11:57:52 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  i'm not sure Tel Aviv is that protected (none / 0)

        with that stuff out there. oh silly me, i forgot, bushco is expectantly LOOKING FORWARD TO the apocalypse
  •  TV ad (4.00 / 4)

    Kerry in front of 5 train box cars.

    Then has the amount of explosive used in Oklahoma City in front.

    Emphasizes that these are explosives, not WMDs, and were sealed and secure.

    The script will write itself.

  •  Did Kos mean to say WaPo or NYT? (none / 0)

    I don't see anything on WaPo yet, and all the hype (Drudge, etc.) was re the NYT story that is now up (and which doesn't play the cover-up angle nearly as hard as I expected based on Josh Marshall's stories today).
  •  Shorter Freepers: (none / 0)

    See?  This proves Saddam was bad!

    I can hear Rush now....

  •  I agree this is big because (4.00 / 2)

    It's not some scandal based on fluff.  This stuff really matters.  We are suffering the results of this failure to safeguard the explosives as we speak in Iraq where our troops and Iraqis are being bombed with it!!

    All serious journalists owe it to the American public to cover this story extensively so we can be sure it never happens again and that we take steps to correct the situation (i.e. kick Bush out of office)

    •  agreed (none / 1)

      This is Huge.  Is this how we fight and control terrorism under Bush?  350 Tons that were under seal!
      I'm starting to write my letters to corporate media tonight.

      Are republicans protected by the Endangered Species Act?

      by Lahdee on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:53:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  If they somehow steal this election... (none / 1)

        4 more years under Bush might bring an actual revolution in this country.  I do not think I am even exaggerating.

        I can totally picture millions of people marching in the streets demanding this administration to be held accountable.  It will get real ugly for us in America if John Kerry does not get in this White House.

  •  Game, Set and Match... (none / 1)

    ...Kerry.  This is the election, ladies and gents.

    "There is nothing false about hope." -- Barack Obama

    by DC Pol Sci on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:43:17 PM PST

      •  It truly is Kerry's to lose (4.00 / 2)

        No way Kerry should lose this election now with the news being so bad from Iraq, with the economy stagnant, high oil prices, Bush continuing to lie and not admitting mistakes, etc, etc.

        This is a checkmate situation folks.

        •  I want to believe but I am scared to believe (none / 0)

          Will the corporate media cave? Or will they be so personally outraged that they will actually run and run and run with this?

          The Bushies have so much to lose, way more than an election ego bruise. What won't they do now?

        •  Too much focus on the horse race (none / 0)


            Stories like this should be what is repeated and Bush should be questioned about it.

           But ABC ran parts of a really soft interview Charlie Gibson did with Bush that will be on Good Morning America Monday.  Most of what they showed was things like are you worried?  Will it come down to OH, FL, and PA?  

           Stuff that won' matter in just over a week and isn't useful to undecided voters.

            David Letterman did a tougher interview with Bush in 2000.

  •  The nail in the coffin ... (none / 1)

    This probably seals the election for us, just as Abu Ghraib killed the $100 million or so negative advertising Rove mounted in late March and early April.  The sheer incompetence of the Bush administration defies imagination.  To say this takes the cake is an understatement.  Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld should burn in hell for this, as for many other things.  Hundreds of our dead young people out there because of their tactical (let's not begin to talk of strategic) incompetence.  If this doesn't push respectable Republicans over to us for this one election, nothing will.
    •  Rumsfeld should have been fired (3.25 / 4)

      long ago, long ago.

      If Bush seriously cared about our country he would have asked for his resignation before this election at the very least to give us a glimmer of an indication that he acknowledges mistakes.

      He talked in a debate about making mistakes in some of his appointments, right?? What the fu-k would he call his choice of Rumsfeld???

      •  Well (none / 0)

        That only applies to his subjects who don't lick his boots.
      •  AS an AMERICAN (4.00 / 2)

        I am concerned - so let me get this straight - we knew ammo dumps were raided and we covered it up? This is so beyond this election - this is about our troops, the security of the Iraqis, the possibility of a islamist Jihad against America.

        Don't you remember when we were respected? Honestly - it's freaking scary.

        That they would cover this up for Political purposes is purplexing beyond belief.

        •  what infuriates me is (4.00 / 2)

          That when stories like this break, George W. Bush doesn't even hold a press conference or put out a statement to apologize or re-assert that he will fix the problem or anything.  He just keeps acting like nothing's wrong.

          argh

        •  We've always known (none / 0)

          ammo dumps and weapons caches were looted since day one. There was even discussion about it in the Congress. The only reason Al Qaqaa stands out now is because it was under international "seal" (monitoring) because of its potential use in making nuclear bombs. But I don't know that we can push the angle that the Rs hid the fact that weapons and ammo stores were looted, since it was pretty much common knowledge while it was happening. The chickens incompetence) have just come home to roost (in the nick of time).

          "There's no housing bubble..." - Fed Chief Ben Bernanke, 10/27/2005

          by chuco35 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:30:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  But it's 350 T-O-N-S (none / 1)

            That quantity is just shocking to me.
            •  To put this quantity in perspective...... (none / 0)

              the article says 350 tons, which @ 2,000 pounds/ton is = to 700,000 pounds. Now flight 103 (Lockerbie, Scotland) was blown up with 1 pound.

              This means we could have up to 700,000 Lockerbies!!!!!

              Are there even that many commercial jet airplanes in the whole goddam world?

              This is enough explosives to make 9/11 look like a 4th of July firecracker.

              *How could 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?*

              by clueless on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:07:18 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  or >700,000 IEDs (none / 0)

                that's enough to use 3 on each of the coalition soldiers.
                And a 1lb IED is substantial.. at 1.5x the strength per lb. of TNT, they could probably squeeze a million out of the haul. This ia W.s version of a million points of light.
        •  the weapons teams were understaffed (none / 1)

          From the reporting at the time, the teams in the 3rd ID sent to find the supposed chemical and biological weapons caches were moved quickly from site to site, testing anything suspicious then heading to the next facility.

          Some of the stuff they tested was 'just' high explosive. But because it wasn't the magical WMD, it didn't matter. (Just as the crap at the nuclear facility was abandoned too.)

      •  Kerry Must Drive this ball WAY out of the park (4.00 / 3)

        We have got to make this the final story thread of this election.  

        Kerry should give the Big Speech. He should stand shoulder to shoulder with a number of his military supporters: McPeak, Hoar, Shalikshavili (sp.), Cleland, and say that Bush has really fallen asleep at the switch.  

        "My fellow Americans, it is with great sadness that I stand before you to speak on the news that almost 400 tons of Saddam Hussein's high explosives in Iraq have gone missing on George W. Bush's watch, and that President Bush and his administration have literally No Idea where these dangerous weapons are or in whose possession they currently reside. This President has failed to protect our troops, who are being attacked every single day by what our military calls improvised explosive devices, or IEDs. These devices are not industrially manufactured, but rather they are guerrilla-style bombs packed with explosive material.  Today we learned that almost 400 tons of explosives were stolen--brazenly stolen from under our noses--from a well-known site that the UN Inspectors warned us about. Unfortunately, this president did not heed those warnings.  Sadly, this President failed to take steps to secure these weapons. George Bush let WOLVES sneak in and steal the weapons he should have been guarding.

        Our servicemen and women are paying the price of the President's failure.  Clearly, in this time of danger, it is time for a new President who will protect America and our troops.

        And so we will have a new President. But under our constitution, George W. Bush will remain our President until January 20th of next year.  And that is too long a time for our troops to wait for real protection.  That is why this morning I have gathered with some of our most respected military leaders to call for Secretary Rumsfeld and the misguided architects of his failed policies to step aside. At this point we need the strongest leaders possible to assume command of our military, and there a number of fine men who fit the bill. My friend John McCain is one of them.  There are others. I would be glad to meet with the President privately and discuss who could fill this role for the safety of our troops. This is beyond politics and I am not willing to consider political party in recommending such an appointment.  I call on the President to take bold action NOW to make this change, and he will have my full support. The safety of our troops must be our guiding goal at this time of uncertainty..."

        "Calmer than you are."

        by Sheffield on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:27:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I trust his killer instinct (4.00 / 2)

          I really think Kerry has a good sense of when to pounce and go in for the kill.  That's why he has the reputation of being a good closer.  This will be a beautiful week to watch him in action.
        •  h (none / 0)

          I hope this doesn't become political - even though it will - this is serious shit - like 60 countries harbor Al qaida, they have bombs for eternity - it could have cause the madrid bombings, it could have spurned the palestinian restinance, it could cause bombings at our own embassies.

          This is too much

          •  It's like they raided (none / 0)

            the Fort Knox of ammunition dumps

            It all comes back to bad intelligence and poor/non-existant planning.

            Looks like Rumsfeld just said, "shock and awe" them and worry about the mess later.

            •  Bullshit (3.00 / 2)

              It all comes back to bad intelligence and poor/non-existant planning.

              Sorry, but that's bullshit.

              This is not bad intelligence - the existence of this explosive material was WELL-KNOWN. This stuff was under U.N. lock and key. There was no bad intelligence here. And don't let Bush try to tell us otherwise.

              This is also not poor planning. You said it right when you said "non-existant".

              We can't let these pricks off the hook on this one - THEY FUCKED UP BAD.

              Our American soldiers (our KIDS) are dying because of this fuckup.

              *How could 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?*

              by clueless on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:16:44 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  not bad intelligence (4.00 / 2)

      This was ALL the Bushites fault. Totally. They can't blame it on bad intelligence -- they didn't need any, the UN and IAEA had it, and so did everybody else. Everybody knew where the stuff was, there was NO REASON not to secure it.

      To allow the looting of known stockpiles of ANY weapons is unacceptable.

      If you don't have enough troops to secure those things, you DO NOT GO IN. Period. To do so with an inadequate number of troops is criminal. And should be treated as such.

      They ought to try these guys for murder. Because they're guilty of it.

      •  Ahhhhh, but... (none / 0)

        ...there WAS a reason not to secure it -- the same reason that all the OTHER ammo dumps weren't secured. Not enough boots on the ground. This is the price we pay for going in "without a plan to win the peace" (if I may quote a certain Senator who we are all currently rooting for...)

        Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

        by drybones on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:40:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not Just The Bushies Get (none / 0)

        get nailed for this!  Every single asshole general or scummy asshat brass who knew this goes to jail for this.

        Every goddamn single one of them.  Jail or brig and hard time.

        Stinking incompetant shitbags. They KNEW.

        You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

        by mattman on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 01:59:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bad intelligence inside Bush brain (none / 0)

  •  All I can say is (none / 0)

    HOLY CRAP! This is a bombshell - in more ways than one!
  •  The Freeptard spin (none / 0)

    the freepers are going to spin this as proof of WMD and WMD programs since the materials could be used in nukes.

    some are also suggesting that this material was trucked over into syria.

    they don't seem concered that it sounds like the DoD was trying to cover it up

    "She has the name recognition, the money, the glitz, she's got it all." Terry McAuliffe

    by naufragus on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:44:34 PM PST

    •  Forget the Freeps.. hammer the media (4.00 / 2)

      ...with this... they report and push the story.. as do their commentators.
    •  let them try (none / 0)

      These were weapons under the IAEA seal at the time of the invasion.  The Bush administration kept the IAEA out of the loop during the invasion and occupation, and, it appears, kept them from installing camera monitors of the site when the inspectors left in advance of the invasion.  Every single aspect of this story points to administration incompetence

      Not judging other people's religion since 1994

      by fightcentristbias on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:51:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Fuck that (none / 0)

      IAEA had it locked down.
    •  Explosives aren't WMD. (none / 0)

      Every country on the earth has explosives that could be used in any WMD.  If that's the standard, we're really gonna need that draft.
    •  How to respond (none / 0)

      First, this can be used in nuclear weaponry, but the VAST majority of it is used in more normal weaponry.  
      You rarely see either just lying around not mixed with some bonding agent since the bonding agents make it less sensitive to blowing up due to shock.

      HMX is mainly used for polymer bonded explosives, and it can also be used for artillery shells and other warheads.  Mixed about 98%-2% with polyurethane, it makes PBX-9801, the stuff used in some of our nuclear weaponry.  It does not have to be used in nuclear weaponry, and it is not the only explosive used in nuclear weaponry.  The US uses it because it can be made to very high tolerances.

      RDX is usually mixed with a plasticizer to make C4.  It can also be mixed with PETN and another plasticizer to make Semtex, the explosive of choice of terrorists.

    •  This is easy to spin back. . . . (none / 0)

      To said freeper: "You mean Saddam had dangerous explosives, which we feared would get into the hands of terrorists, and the location of which were known.  Then, when we invaded Iraq we left these explosives --- which we knew about --- unguarded so that they'd fall into the hands of terrorists?"

      Or,

      "Then why didn't the administration alert us to their presence earlier?  Oh, yeah, because they f**king lost them!"

      They're doomed, no matter how they try to spin it.

    •  Um, Freepers, the Army was there in April 2003... (none / 0)

      Well, since the 3rd ID checked out al-Qa'Qa' in April 2003, that fish won't fly. The headline's a bit of a giveaway: 'Banned Iraqi Weapons Might Be Hard to Find: Suspicious Sites Provide No Proof Yet'.

      Meaning that in the rush to find chemical and biological weapons, they tested stuff that turned out to be 'just' high explosive, and left it.

  •  October surprise (4.00 / 2)

    The wingers must be pissed because this is going to trump their stupid "October surprise" story in the Washington Times.

    This one has the added advantage of being important and true.

    I never cease to be amazed at how low the Bush administration will go.

    My reality may not conform to your ideology. Visit Delaware Liberal.

    by Unstable Isotope on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:44:45 PM PST

  •  sounds like (3.80 / 5)

    Al Qa Qaa is going to hit the fan...
  •  This could be the biggest example of incompetence (4.00 / 2)

    ... and malfeasance so far in this war.  And that's saying something

    The Times story makes clear that the DoD and other U.S. authorities including Colin Powell were notified before the invasion that these materials needed to be monitored from Day 1.

    This mistake has undoubtedly led to the deaths of many U.S. troops and Iraqi police.

    Bush and company deserve to be removed from office based on this story alone.

    •  or how about this quote from a Senior Admin Off. (none / 0)

      mentioned in the a CNN article.
      The senior administration official downplayed the importance of the missing explosives, describing them as dangerous material but "stuff you can buy anywhere." The official added that the administration did not see this necessarily as a "proliferation risk."

      I think I'll just pop off to K-Mart for some RDX, HMX and some PETN.  Oh, and there's a blue light special on nuclear technology today.  

      I can't wait to cast my vote next week.

      IOKIYAR! They believe markets and competition solve everything AND that the universe is centrally planned.

      by No One No Where on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 07:52:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  We're safer with Saddam under lock and key (4.00 / 2)

    My ass.
  •  The worse part of it... (none / 0)

    is how they kept it off the public eye for so long.

    Can you imagine how this would have played during the debates?  It would have made it highly uncomfortable for the fWcker.

    Hopefully this will get enough airtime, and the DNC will put out a great ad out there.

  •  350 tons (4.00 / 7)

    This is it.  This is the deal-closer.  This is the narrative of this entire week.  This is what gets them to finally crack.  This is direct evidence of Bush incompetence killing Americans.  This is direct evidence of Bush mendacity misleading Americans.  This is the final fucking curtain.

    If this had happened in a Clinton war, Big Dog would have been neutered publically.

    Where's the outrage?  Here it comes ...

  •  No mistakes were made! (none / 1)

    I'm resolute in my fantasy.

    When the rest of the world decides to take care of the bully, I hope I'm not in Columbine.

    by georgeNOTw on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:47:40 PM PST

  •  Correction (4.00 / 2)

    Obviously, the worst part of this is our kids (and innocent) Iraqis being blown to pieces.

    Screw these a****les.

    •  i think your key board got stuck (none / 1)

      you meant to say:

       screw these assholes

      (late night thread, let it all hang out)

      :)

      You never know who will show up at Netroots Nation. Will you be there?

      by ETinKC on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:30:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I couldn't Agree More (none / 0)

      For me in this election, bad news is good new.  Except for Iraq.  Because bad news means more innocent people die.  I hate this so much and I just want it to be over.  They are incompetent.  If the people of this country reelect these people to lead this country, and make life and death decisions for people they could care less about, I don't think I could stay here.  Paying taxes to this country would be like giving money to the devil.  I can hope for a bad economy, but I hate what has happened in Iraq.  My heart bleeds for the innocent lives that have been lost both the Americans and the Iraqis.  It is a sin.  If God told Bush this was the right thing to do, then I would find another God.
  •  Chickenhawks coming home to roost (none / 0)

    The really classic thing about this is that had this story broken a year ago, it would be old news and the press pack would go "Feh" whenever Kerry brought it up. Sure, it would have been damaging, but in a media atmosphere of gallavanting Bush triumphalism, it would have had far less impact. Now, the Bushies' reflexive secrecy has, indeed, turned a horrible story that might have been managable a year ago into an October Own Goal.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

    by Septic Tank on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:48:41 PM PST

  •  Now We Know (none / 0)

    the reason for the forthcoming Drudge story. It's an effort to push the IAEA story to the side. Somehow, I don't think it's going to work.

    Guy Andrew Hall a.k.a. Rook

    by Rook on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:48:57 PM PST

  •  Don't fuck with the spooks.... (4.00 / 5)

    No doubt they played a role in finally pushing this out...If we have any semblance of a halfway decent media, this should dominate at least one or two days of news cycles, which may mean we will see Rove's hail mary about midweek, a few days sooner than expected....

    Strap in folks....It's going to get bumpy...

    Wars not make one great. - Yoda

    by Volvo Liberal on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:49:33 PM PST

  •  <b>Remember Kashmir?</b> (none / 0)

    Anybody remember groups like Lashkar e Toiba and Jiash e Muhammed?  

    Remember how the Indian Army was repeatedly hit with IED's of great power, using RDX?  The tactic of Lashkar e Toiba.

    Gee, it seems that the Iraqis did watch the wars going on around them, like Vietnam, Russo-Afghan, their own Iran/Iraq war, and yes, Kashmir, didn't they?

    The Iraqi resistance is giving the explosives back to us, a little bit at a time.

    1104 and counting.

    How many more must die for Bush's lies and incompetance?

    Today, 11/17/09, 4363 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied; President Obama, it is your war now.

    by boilerman10 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:50:37 PM PST

    •  mod parent up! (none / 0)

      The use of RDX in IEDs has been common in Kashmir since the mid-90s. There are probably training manuals in Iraq right now explaining just how to use this stuff.

      Google for 'RDX IED Kashmir' and see what comes up. It's not pretty.

  •  350 tons (4.00 / 2)

    As I point out in my diary, is MORE than 20 standard tractor trailer packed and loaded expertly, and run on top-line roads and bridges.

    In all reality, there were probably HUNDREDS of vehicles involved.

    As for the "WMD" angle - the POINT is that this material was under IAEA seal, monitored, known, and located...and now it's gone.

    Enough for tens of thousands of 100 pound car bombs...remember, 350 (or 380) tons is 700 THOUSAND (or 760 THOUSAND) pounds.

    Hundreds of thousands of satchel explosives.

    Thousands of OKC or WTC 1993 bombs.

    The only way to ensure a free press is to own one

    by RedDan on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:52:06 PM PST

    •  760,000 pounds. (4.00 / 3)

      Enough to sponsor terrorism FOR EVER.
      •  And just think how easy..... (none / 0)

        it'll be to smuggle a few hundred pounds into the US...again....and again....and again....

        Oh yeah, we're safer with W in charge...

      •  Careful making that argument (none / 0)

        Since the republicans can turn it right back on the ignorant public by saying : "see! Iraq was in posession of tons of explosives that was enough to sponsor terrorism for ever"  

        Sure they will leave out the fact the ammunition was safe prior to the war and under IAEA supervision... sure there was no terrorism in Iraq prior to this war... who cares says Rove!

        Average Joe out there will just hear the words:

        explosives, tons!, Iraq, terrorism, forever!! must-vote-Bush... I want braiiiiiiins.... juicy braaaains.

    •  good line (none / 0)

      Enough explosives to blow up the Murrah Building 300,000 (?) times.  people can picture the devestation.

      "She has the name recognition, the money, the glitz, she's got it all." Terry McAuliffe

      by naufragus on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:59:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, not 100 pound car bombs (none / 0)

      The reason that style of car bomb, a favorite of the IRA, was so heavy was because it was made from gelignite, which is basically nitrogycerine added to parafin. RDX is has a much, much more powerful and effective chemical reaction, so you can do more with less.

      Amateurs talk strategery, professionals talk logistics

      by Young Freud on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:57:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorism... (none / 0)

      brought to you by the United States of America.

      Just disgusting.

      "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

      by fishhead on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:33:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  the geo-political fallout (none / 0)

    Obviously, this story, especially if it has legs, has real political fallout which can only benefit Kerry (and it helps make a lot of sense for me about why Republicans keep jumping the party ship). But what concerns me more is the implications for US involvement in the Middle East and in Iraq in particular.

    First, there is no way that US troops are leaving Iraq. If they did, it would be near impossible to control or even keep an eye on where the missing explosives end up -- talk about proliferation. We are there for a while, and there is going to have to be a huge call up for volunteers (since a draft has been ruled out) to help secure Iraq and the world from dealing in these explosives. In order to gain the intel and secure the stuff, we are going to need more troops.

    Moreover, given this new information it is far from clear that NATO forces will be keen to join the mission (on the other hand this does mean that their very safety is at stake, so they might well have to do it -- but try pitching the duty of fixing up the US mess to your citizenry).

    Third, I want some facts -- how are these explosives transported? How stable are they? How hard are they to move? Is there a real (clear and present?) danger of a black market in this stuff, or is it just too risky to transport any real distances? If it is unstable or hard to transport, the mess may be fixable. If it is not, this is a really really big mess.

  •  Administration excuse (none / 0)

    Administration officials say Iraq was awash in munitions, including other stockpiles of exotic explosives.

    "The only reason this stockpile was under seal," said one senior administration official, "is because it was located at Al Qaqaa," where nuclear work had gone on years ago.

    Paraphrased: this is only one of the many many sites we failed to secure. What's the big deal?

    This is an amazing, hard-hitting article that will rock the campaign on its heels. Watch them dance, folks.

    Fox News: Always right, often wrong.

    by jneufnyc on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 07:54:16 PM PST

    •  I think you are right. (none / 0)

      The administration and committee to re-elect will brush it off.

      We need some Iraq vets to speak up about this.

      I also agree with the other poster who said Clinton should mention this in his speech.

      How many more have to die because of Bush's lies and incompetance?

      Today, 11/17/09, 4363 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied; President Obama, it is your war now.

      by boilerman10 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:11:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  to be clear (none / 0)

        I don't think the official response will be the one given in the article, which is politically inept in the extreme. They will undoubtedly try to brush it off somehow, but the route taken in the article would be laughable if it weren't about what it's about. Truly incredible.
         

        Fox News: Always right, often wrong.

        by jneufnyc on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:19:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  One thing about the Bush Administration is Clear - (none / 0)

      It is NEVER Bush's fault.  Not ever.  So it won't be a great surprise that they'll push it onto Saddam: "See, he did have weapons, and look how bad he is.  It was he who snuck the weapons out so they could be used by insurgents."  No mention of the sheer chaos created by the massive bombing, the insufficient American troops, and the piss-poor planning that led the US not to pay attention to materials that were ALREADY UNDER IAEA SEAL (and thus SECURED before we f***ed it up!)
  •  I hope this story is the kicker (none / 1)

    that bags it for us. However, many examples of incompetence and deception by shrubco have seen the light of day, and still this election is up for grabs. WTF.
  •  Kos (none / 0)

    I recommend you change the title to

    "US failed to secure 380 TONS of Iraq explosives"

  •  Holy cow! (4.00 / 2)

    It is very evident that the administration botched this, and botched it badly.  That amount of explosives in one area with no security to defend it from looters is pure malfeasance.

    The killer paragraph in the story is:

    The International Atomic Energy Agency publicly warned about the danger of these explosives before the war, and after the invasion it specifically told United States officials about the need to keep the explosives secured, European diplomats said in interviews last week. Administration officials say they cannot explain why the explosives were not safeguarded, beyond the fact that the occupation force was overwhelmed by the amount of munitions they found throughout the country.

    The administration had full knowledge of this and yet they sent not a single platoon to secure the area, citing that they were busy securing other munitioin amounts.  Perhaps the administration didn't send a security detail out because our military is over extended in Iraq and they were focused on other things, like soldiers guarding Halliburton consultants.

    My God, what were they thinking?

    NARAL and HRC endorsed Lieberman. Therefore, I can no longer endorse them.

    by LeftofArizona on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:02:51 PM PST

  •  This will be the kicker... (none / 0)

    ...if major nets run with it and tell the story correctly.

    I don't know if I trust them to report this correctly.  I'll believe it when I see it.

  •  Big, yes, but I still wonder (none / 0)

    This is really a horrifying story, as I read it in the NYT online, but I still wonder what its impact will be on ordinary Americans?  It's all so detail oriented, involving the mind-numbing acronym for UN organizations, and weapons inspection, etc.  I just don't know if it will have the kind of impact it really should, as compared to, say, the flu vaccine shortage, which hardly even needs any explanation, given the immediate impact on everyone's parents and grandparents and small children.  The flu vaccine shortage is like a picture book of an issue - people just have to look at it to get it; whereas this missing arsenal is more like a textbook, requiring people to think about the implications of it and ask why and how we failed to secure this arsenal.  I hope it will have an impact, I'm just not sure that it will.
    •  Somebody has to work (none / 0)

      on reducing this to a two sentence summary that keeps the impact.  Americans would have to be concerned about this if they could get their heads around it.  How about one of those Iraqi vets in Operation Truth going on TV and making the connection between this material getting loose and his injury?
        •  Okay, in the next sentence (none / 0)

          explain to me what the IAEA is, and if Bush was shown this info or not.  I'm not being hostile, I just think we need some practice at simplifying this for mass consumption.
          •  I agree (none / 0)

            inspections where working.  this was secured until we invaded. it was ignored.  it was stolen.  the goveremnet has been hiding it for 2 years.

            thats long but as soon as you give people acronyms they dont know or say INTERNATIONAL bla blah blah you lost them.

            Bush had no plan and then covers up terrorist theft of enough exlosives to blow up the Murrah Building 500,000 times.  How is he keeping us safe?

            thats kind of short

            "She has the name recognition, the money, the glitz, she's got it all." Terry McAuliffe

            by naufragus on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:58:21 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Simple explanation (none / 1)

            Bush did nothing to secure almost 800,000 pounds of the most powerful non-nuclear explosives in existence, and blocked the international agency from monitoring the site. Now the explosives are in the hands of terrorirsts, and we find that he tried to cover it up.

            Also link it to the unsecured cargo containers that Kerry's been talking about. If someone overseas ships to terrorists in America in one-pound boxes labeled "candy," how likely is to be stopped?

            This is scary shit.

            •  Good (none / 0)

              Naufragus above is good too.  But how to pound home the cover up angle, which CNN seems to be ignoring. (I'm writing Monday morning.)  Did BUSH know of this.  He should have obviously.  But can anyone show that high administration officials tried to cover it up.
    •  Impact (none / 1)

      No, I think this will have an impact.

      There are some very easy things to understand here:

      1. 350 tons of explosive is a lot of shit.
      2. Letting insurgents get to it is fucked up.
      3. Not admitting the truth to anyone is crap.

      "Bush gave insurgents the explosives they are now using to kill Americans and didn't bother to tell anyone about it." - how about that as a narrative?
    •  in a nutshell (none / 0)

      The UN knew there were many, many tons of high explosives at Al Qaqaa, because they found them and secured them. The explosives were under UN security, and had been for many years. Our military were told this mountain of explosives needed to be secured IMMEDIATELY or there would be hell to pay. They didn't secure them, and our troops are dying because of it.

      Does that capture it? Four sentences, no hard words.

  •  How big a job will it be to track this stuff down? (none / 0)

    Will it be possible to neutralize whomever has the stuff?  How far and wide can this stuff be distributed?  My guess is that Bush and Cheney have not a clue nor do they really give a hoot.  Increased bombings justify their perpetual war on terror.
  •  380 tons? (none / 0)

    That verges on the unbelievable.

    Are we sure that it's not "the explosive yield-equivalent of 380 tons of TNT"?

  •  And Kerry Still Has His October Surprise (none / 0)

    this is not from democrats, or Kerry operatives.  this is from the media, and maybe some spooks.

    Regardless, I think Kerry still has another bullet in his chamber, and for that, I am very, very happy.

    •  not even from the spooks (none / 0)

      Read the NYTimes article.  Sounds more like the European and UN politicians releasing it now, not reporters' leg work.

      --author, Global Fever: How to Treat Climate Change (University of Chicago Press, April 2008).

      by wcalvin on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:27:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And an Iraqi Government Official (none / 0)

        to boot. Why did he put out a damaging report to the IAEA on October 15th. Didn't Rove warn him about waiting a couple of weeks?

        "There's no housing bubble..." - Fed Chief Ben Bernanke, 10/27/2005

        by chuco35 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:54:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes (none / 0)

        That's all those people (and countries) that Shrub scoffed at when Kerry said people on that side of the pond had told him they were pulling for him in this election.

        And that's probably also how the administration is going to try to spin out of this - just some malcontent old europeans trying to meddle in the US elections...

        Memo to Republicans - "Nope" is not a strategy...

        by frisco on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:38:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Iraq finally blows up in Bush's face. (none / 0)

    These damn fools should have been working hand-in-hand with the IAEA prior to the invasion, then with the Iraqi army immediately afterward.

    They blew everyone and every plan off. Now it's blowing up on them. Unfortunately on a lot of innocent Iraqi and American citizens too.

    Goddammit, I wish I could vote again!

    And if Limbaugh, Beck et al stroke out over this, I say we put him on Mount Rushmore. - Nancy Nall

    by perro amarillo on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:07:40 PM PST

  •  As politics (none / 1)

    this is a stunner;  as reality on the ground in Iraq very, very depressing.  What incompetence and disorganization.  Kerry and all of us are gonna have our hands full getting out of this shitstorm. Thanks George, your myopic religious arrogance and inept staff.
  •  This goes way beyond Iraq war incompentence now (none / 0)

    We now need to be very worried about this calibre of explosive making its way back into the United States.  The War on Terror has now officially come back to bite us in the ass.  George Bush claims only he can keep us safe.  Well now, it appears that he has allowed very dangerous materials that were previously secured to be loosed upon the world (not just us, but Europe, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, the entire world) is now at a much greater risk because of Bush's war of choice.  

    Now I can officially say that I would rather have Saddam Hussein back in power.  HE never let his weaponry go missing....

    You can fool some of the people some of the time....

    by dmoore on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:08:00 PM PST

  •  from ordnance.org (none / 0)

    Here is how RBX is defined:
    http://www.ordnance.org/rbx.htm

    Also referred to as cyclonite,  or hexogen, RDX is a white crystalline solid usually used in mixtures with other  explosives, oils, or waxes; it is rarely used alone. It has a high degree of stability in  storage and is considered the most powerful and brisant of the military high explosives.

    RDX compositions are mixtures of RDX, other explosive  ingredients, and desensitizers or plasticizers. Incorporated with other explosives or  inert material at the manufacturing plants, RDX forms the base for the following common  military explosives: Composition A, composition  B, composition C, HBX, H-6 and Cyclotol.

    Here is a definition of HMX from http://www.fact-index.com/h/hm/hmx.html

    HMX (an acronym for High Melting eXplosive) is a powerful military explosive material; it is also used in rocket fuels. It may be produced by nitration of hexamine in the presence of acetic anhydride, paraformaldehyde and ammonium nitrate.

    HMX, also known as octogen, explodes violently at high temperatures. It decomposes around 280°C. Its density is 1.91.

    HMX is the military's most powerful conventional (non-nuclear) explosive, though Octanitrocubane is expected to be more powerful.

    The molecule has an eight-membered ring made of carbon and nitrogen atoms, which supports four nitro groups.

    •  Global warming can't come fast enough (none / 0)

      If HMX decomposes at 280 degrees.

      Damn, damn, damn.

      How many war crimes can a man admit on TV before anyone catches on?

      by Christopher on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:16:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  friendly note (none / 1)

      RDX is widely used as a booster in underwater demolitions.  The booster packs are cannister like containers that have a hole for the underwater blasting cap, and are inserted into the blasting agent shell.

      The brisance of RDX limits its commercial uses except in deep water applications where its excellent performance is second to none.

      In Kashmir, RDX was used with deadly effect in devices and mines that caused terrible damage to the Indian Army trying to quell the revolt.

      Properly done, (and completely unreported) about 25lbs of RDX will flip over an M-1 tank, a 50 lb charge will devastate a fast moving truck due to the extreme speed of the detonation.  50 lbs under an M-1 tank will both rupture the floor of the tank and send it flipping like a tiddley-wink.

      14 lbs in an anti-tank mine will vaporise a man, and leave nothing, not even his boots.  TNT will also do this but not quite as violently....RDX is too fast for tank tread destruction, so it is usually only a booster for TNT or Tetryl.

      Small amounts of RDX used in conjunction with a cap will easily boost low grade caps and quills enough to detonate large stores of ANFO explosives (Ammonium Nitrate/Fuel Oil)

      That Chimpy and his military crew let this material escape especially after full knowledge of how effective RDX is in IED's against superior military forces like in Kashmir, is inexcusable!

      This stuff is dangerous, but easy and quite safe to use, if you are not around when it goes off.

      Today, 11/17/09, 4363 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied; President Obama, it is your war now.

      by boilerman10 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:32:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  thanks (none / 0)

        for the helpful information. And I have to say that given your clear expertise in explosives, I am glad it was a friendly note.
        •  Hello (none / 0)

          I am just trying to give an idea of how hideously dangerous this material is.

          I don't mean to frighten anyone, or raise concerns.  It is too late for that.

          The Iraqis have this material.

          First, we let the looting proceed.  Then we didn't allow for diplomacy to work, but stuck with the military only option.

          Now we are in a deadly quagmire, deeply involved in a popular, and from the Iraqi perspective, a  highly patriotic insurgency to eject us from their country.

          The worst part is we did all the work for the insurgency by not watching what was going on.

          This administration has to go, this bungle endangers every GI in Iraq, unnecessarily.  

          Today, 11/17/09, 4363 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied; President Obama, it is your war now.

          by boilerman10 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:07:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Apologies (none / 0)

            for my too glib reply. I did appreciate the information, and I thank you again for it. Also, I think you and I are on the same page here. The situation is already scary. I meant simply something like this: Presumably there are some folks in Iraq who know what they are sitting on, and they are not so friendly.

            I have to say that this report provides the first sense I have had since 9/11 that things are unpredictably dangerous. This is not a situation that admits readily of detente.

            •  Thank you for your reply (none / 0)

              But I didn't take it that way.

              If we can discuss this here, then the Iraqis are fully in the know too.

              The dangers we now face demand a change of leadership; and this story is just one example of the failure of Bush/Cheney and the entire neo-con captivity of our government.

              I pity the soldiers.  It was all so avoidable.

              Today, 11/17/09, 4363 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied; President Obama, it is your war now.

              by boilerman10 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:47:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  RDX (none / 0)

        Reading your descriptions, and others here, I wonder if RDX is what was called "plastic explosives," used with such devastating effect by the Algerians in their war against France?

        And I've read that there's something the U.S. special forces use called C-4. Is this the same as RDX, or similar?

        If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.--A Boston cabbie, to Gloria Steinem, in the 1970s

        by Mnemosyne on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:18:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  RDX reply (none / 0)

          Similar to plastics.

          There are several kinds.

          RDX is one of them.  And, one of the most powerful.

          I think C-4 is something else.  I don't remember the name.

          My experience is limited to underwater blasting of rocks, where caps can be so limited by water pressure that a straight cap will not detonate the charge.  RDX boosters used to be made by DuPont exclusively for underwater work to overcome this phenomenon, and were highly effective.

          The rest of it is from Jane's, Intelligence Weekly, and the Indian press, plus some anecdotal conversations with others.

          This news is horrible.  If I were a GI over there, I would be hopping mad.  If I were a troop commander I would be angrier than that!

          The military fully knew how effective RDX was in the hands of the Pakistani and Kashmiri radicals.  That efforts to secure this much explosive of this power was not done, is completely inexcusable.

          The whole region is in danger.  

          Today, 11/17/09, 4363 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied; President Obama, it is your war now.

          by boilerman10 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:37:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you (none / 0)

            Am I correct in thinking that this stuff needs some kind of detonator cord to activate it? In other words, it doesn't just go Boom by itself, if dropped, for instance.

            If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.--A Boston cabbie, to Gloria Steinem, in the 1970s

            by Mnemosyne on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:43:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  need a cap or det cord. (none / 0)

              I think the Iraqis use electric squibs and quills and remotely detonate the charge, or use electric  timers.  Oil well caps are no doubt, widely available, as well as squibs for stone blasting I should think.  I have seen some of those Iraqi jihadi wmv's around, and it sure looks like they remotely detonate the charges.

              No, RDX is quite safe and easy to handle and store.  This is what makes it doubly dangerous.  A kid with a shoe shine box an kill several people with a 2.5 lb charge.

              I pity the troops!

              Today, 11/17/09, 4363 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied; President Obama, it is your war now.

              by boilerman10 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:54:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  C-4 is 90% RDX (none / 0)

          the other 10% (sometimes less) is the binding agent.

          Here is one site with that information:
          http://www.free-definition.com/C-4.html

          A quick google search turns up confirming sites.

  •  What color does this terror alert rate? (none / 0)

    We were getting increased terror alerts because they found cd-roms with photos and floor plans on them.  How much higher do we have to ratchet up the terror alert for 20 truckloads of missing explosive?

    You can fool some of the people some of the time....

    by dmoore on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:10:43 PM PST

  •  However frightening and horrible this story is, (none / 0)

    I am wondering how many more such stories there are that we haven't yet heard about.

    I picture President Kerry before a press conference or on a prime-time adddress saying, "There are many terrible things that we are only now finding out about."

    Every time I think this administration has reached the outer limits of mendacity, they prove me wrong.

    They hid this information for 18 months! There are no words to describe the utter wickedness and evil of Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney and all their cronies.

    If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.--A Boston cabbie, to Gloria Steinem, in the 1970s

    by Mnemosyne on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:10:58 PM PST

  •  Freeper Spin (none / 0)

    Won't they just spin it as proof that Saddam was trying to make nuclear weapons?

    For the layman, that kind of argument would probably suffice and it would go as a plus for Bush.

    How should this liberal combat the inevitable freeper crap?

  •  dnc, soros, SOMEBODY (none / 0)

    put up an ad about this story TOMORROW. scare tactics? yeah. *WE SHOULD ALL BE SCARED*. They knew where these explosives were BEFORE the invasion.
  •  hm... 2+2... explosives + al qaqaa = spain??? (none / 0)

    gee. I wonder if any of the explosives used in spain came out of unguarded iraq facilities? it shouldn't be so hard to check the residue and trace it back.... wouldn't that be ironic.

    bush would have allowed looting of explosives that terrorists then used.

    imagine that.

  •  A critical mass of ineptitude, or malice? (4.00 / 5)

    I've said this before, and as long as Bush is our president, I'll have to repeat it more than I have been, but when somebody is so bad at doing what they're supposed to do it makes me think we should stop assuming they're doing what they say they are trying to do, and ASSUME THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY REALLY WANT TO DO (and can't/won't tell us).

    In other words, when Bush signs an overpriced and ineffective prescription drug benefit bill, he's not trying and failing to give more seniors cheaper drugs, he's trying to redistribute money to drug companies instead of saving money for seniors. When Bush talks about protecting America and doesn't confront the chemical industry or require cargo inspections, he's maintaining our vulnerabilities instead of reducing them. When Bush talks about winning the war on terror and (1) lets Osama Bin Laden escape at Tora Bora, (2) switches focus to Iraq without catching OBL, and (3) declines, repeatedly, to go after Zarqawi, he's not trying to win the war on terror.

    And when Bush says he's protecting the troops and planning to win the war in Iraq and doesn't take action to secure SEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND POUNDS of powerful explosive material, it should be pretty goddamn obvious that Bush is lying.

    And those lies are getting Americans maimed and killed, without making us any safer.

    But hey, at least he didn't get a blowjob.

    How many war crimes can a man admit on TV before anyone catches on?

    by Christopher on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:12:16 PM PST

    •  Agree (none / 1)

      Incompetence plays a big role, but so does intention.

      Bush & Co. were never very interested in Iraq's nuclear capacity despite their exaggerated claims about mushroom clouds.  If they had cared about nuclear materials getting into the hands of terrorists, they would have, above all else, not left nuclear facilities unguarded after the Marines broke the locks on them.  Despite pleas from IAEA these sites were looted, yellowcake was dispersed, and cesium and cobalt sealed up by IAEA disappeared.  But these radioactive materials are nothing compared to the big explosives and would just be ingredients in a dirty bomb whose real harm would be from the explosion.  The cesium, etc., would just be sufficient to cause panic if picked up by radiation detectors.

      Bush, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz:  these guys are cynical criminals.

      But will the public pay any attention?  If the networks and CNN decide this is a story, they will.  But it could just turn into another talking heads anecdote.  The theft of the nuclear materials was barely reported in the US.

      Amory Lovins: "Coal can fill the real gaps in our fuel economy....." IPCC: Anthropogenic greenhouse gases will cause extinction of up to 70% of species by 2050.

      by Plan9 on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:29:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Inspections were WORKING. (none / 1)

    That's what I get from this story -- the IAEA had this stuff under control, they knew where it was and it wasn't going anywhere.  In fact, some of it had been used by the U.N. to destroy a germ weapon factory.  And then Bush declares that inspections aren't working (not that that's really why he went into Iraq) and invades and now all this stuff is floating around out there being used to kill people.  Gosh, that plan worked!
    •  Also, would this change the effect (none / 0)

      of a pre-election terrorist attack?  I've been operating under the assumption that if there's an attack in the next week, it would probably help Bush at least slightly.  But if every report of such an attack included mention of the possibility that it was carried out with explosives that the U.S. failed to secure when they went into Iraq, that might turn it toward Kerry, right?

      All things considered, I don't think such an attack is likely.  But this might even make the threat of one something that the republicans were less likely to raise.  

  •  CNN snooze alarm (none / 0)

    Maybe CNN doesn't read the NYTimes. They're really worried about the Miss America Pageant though.  Here's a link for making story suggestions:

    http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form11b.html?1

    Help them out. You know how Bill Hemmer hates Monday mornings.  I gave them this tip:

    "What are we reporting that YOU want to talk about?" you ask?  How about what you're NOT reporting. A week before the election and you're doing stories on the Miss America Pageant meltdown?  Hey, how about the looting of 380 TONS of explosives in Iraq left unguarded by the Bush administration and now being used daily to kill and maim our brave soldiers?  How about getting your priorities straight and start being JOURNALISTS?

    •  E-mali CNN's managing editor directly (none / 0)

      Eason Jordan
      eason.jordan@turner.com

      Be polite, but forceful. I suggested that he have Wolf or Soledad ask someone about it before turning to talking about Kerry's mention of Cheney's lesbian daughter, but that's probably too snarky,

    •  Gave opinion to CNN (none / 0)

      Thanks!! That was a great idea.

      "One sees well only with the heart. The essential is invisible to the eyes."

      by khloemi on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:36:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I just sent mine (none / 0)

      I hope I wasn't too high on the snark factor (and I did borrow liberally from you, rollerboyz).

      It is a week before the election and CNN is covering the loss of the Miss America Pageant?  

      Here's an idea for you: how about the looting of 760,000 pounds of high explosives in Iraq that was left unguarded by the Bush administration and is now being used daily to kill and maim our brave soldiers as well as Iraqis?  

      Did you know that it only took 1-pound of this stuff to bring down Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie?  Did you know that 50 pounds of this stuff could break through an M-1 tank's armor and send it flipping like a tiddly-wink?

      Do you realize that with this mother lode cache of materiel, terrorists have enough at their disposal to blow up 100 5-lb bombs EVERY DAY FOR 4 YEARS?!?  Or, put another way, enough raw (hard-to-detect via airport scanners) explosive materiel to bring down more than 700,000 commercial airliners?

      Do you know that the US attempted to "keep this quiet" by pressing the Iraqi Interim Authority until the IAEA forced the Iraqis' hands earlier this month.

      So this was not simply incompetence of the highest and most serious order, it was also malfeasance and cover-up from the US population and the world at large.

      Based on this, wouldn't one of your critical reporters think the Bush administration has failed miserably to improve the safety of: (a) our troops in Iraq; (b) the people of the United States; and (c) the people of the world?

      How about getting all of our priorities straight and reporting on what REALLY MATTERS?  We are only 1-week away from the most critical election in generations.  It's time for the media to do its job.

      Thank you.

      Memo to Republicans - "Nope" is not a strategy...

      by frisco on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:58:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  senior official: we are incompetent (none / 0)

    Did you all catch this quote? "Should we have gone there? Definitely," said one senior administration official. "But there are a lot of things we should have done, and didn't."
    •  That's Rumsfeld (none / 1)

      That's his little question answer style of speaking.  And it's also his level of intelligence to say that because there are lots of things they fucked up this one is no biggie.
      •  you're right (none / 0)

        Now that you mention it, I can hear is voice saying it. Kerry should quote that and follow it with something like: Finally a Bush official says someting I agree with.
        •  That sounds like powell (none / 0)


          Did you all catch this quote? "Should we have gone there? Definitely," said one senior administration official. "But there are a lot of things we should have done, and didn't."

          Powell or Rumsfeld - the media will just make this a 'crossfire' issue and that'll be that - no accountability - and we end up losing. I just want to know why this happened!

    •  that entire passage was the first thing... (none / 0)

      that really caught my eye

      "After the collapse of the regime, our liberation, everything was under the coalition forces, under their control," Dr. Omar said. "So probably they can answer this question, what happened to the materials."

      Officials in Washington said they had no answers to that question. One senior official noted that the Qaqaa complex where the explosives were stored was listed as a "medium priority" site on the Central Intelligence Agency's list of more than 500 sites that needed to be searched and secured during the invasion. "Should we have gone there? Definitely," said one senior administration official.

      OMG.  I immediately thought of what Kerry said in the 1st debate about the US soldiers guarding the oil ministry -- guess they were "high priority" not the explosives which were obviously "medium priority".  with 500 sites, it's hard to make the cut with all those oil ministry offices?  is that why? maybe that list of 500 site will come out...

      KERRY: There's a sense of American occupation. The only building that was guarded when the troops when into Baghdad was the oil ministry. We didn't guard the nuclear facilities.

      We didn't guard the foreign office, where you might have found information about weapons of mass destruction. We didn't guard the borders.

      Buy Renewable Energy Now! Choose Your Power or Green Tags

      by drh on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 11:57:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Silly Kossiacks (none / 0)

    Why secure the explosives and museum with artifacts going back to the birth of civilization when the Oil Ministry needs guarding?

    -Hope never cost Corporate America a dime

    by DWCG on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:15:13 PM PST

  •  How much of this stuff (none / 1)

    got out of the country?

    Unbelievable. Incompetent, criminal ...

    Further along in the article:

    But the Bush administration would not allow the agency back into the country to verify the status of the stockpile. In May 2004, Iraqi officials say in interviews, they warned L. Paul Bremer III, the American head of the occupation authority, that Al Qaqaa had probably been looted. It is unclear if that warning was passed anywhere. Efforts to reach Mr. Bremer by telephone were unsuccessful. But by that time, the Americans were preoccupied with the transfer of authority to Iraq, and the insurgency was gaining strength. "It's not an excuse," said one senior administration official. "But a lot of things went by the boards."

    Dr. ElBaradei, a European diplomat said, is "extremely concerned" about the potentially "devastating consequences" of the vanished stockpile.

    Its fate remains unknown. Glenn Earhart, manager of an Army Corps of Engineers program in Huntsville, Ala., that is in charge of rounding up and destroying lost Iraqi munitions, said he and his colleagues knew nothing of the whereabouts of the Qaqaa stockpile.

    Administration officials say Iraq was awash in munitions, including other stockpiles of exotic explosives.

    "The only reason this stockpile was under seal," said one senior administration official, "is because it was located at Al Qaqaa," where nuclear work had gone on years ago.

    How can any of the supposedly principled members of that party continue to prop up these idiots? They impeached a President for a white lie about a blowjob, but this isn't cause for an uproar?

  •  Can Iraq get any worse at this point? (none / 0)

    The Bush administration has the blood of American soliders on their hands.

    "Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere"

    by Morbo on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:15:47 PM PST

  •  Well people (none / 0)

    We are all busy on RDX now.  Doesn't this feel just a tad more important than Typewriters of the 1970s?  
  •   The dumb willfully blind... (none / 0)

    leading other willfully blind men as well...George watch out for that mine, I mean tree!
  •  Paging Republicans who favor country over (none / 0)

    party - now is the time for you to show your stuff.

    There are a few of you - make yourselves known, not because it will make you look better in history, but just because it is the right thing to do.

    I suspect Bush has known this was coming - explains the lighter schedule, Laura's wistful tone on the ABC interview, not as energized GOPers on Sunday shows.

  •  RHX is stable, easily stored, transported (none / 0)

    "She has the name recognition, the money, the glitz, she's got it all." Terry McAuliffe

    by naufragus on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:16:10 PM PST

  •  Freepers are in TOTAL DISARRAY! (none / 0)

    ...and not just over this story.

    Wow, it's getting ugly over there at Freeper world.  They are frantic over the Explosives story and frantic over the execution of the Iraqi soldiers.

    One of them even said "I am starting to have a bad feeling about this war"  Oh really?? Now?? It's about time...

    Look here:
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1255761/posts

    and here:
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1255077/posts

  •  Any chance the dudes from Halliburton just... (none / 0)

    ....took the stuff. You know how fucking greedy they are and if anyone was going to have access to it, they'd be the vultures Cheney would send in.
  •  Let me get this straight (none / 0)

    We went into Iraq to prevent terrorists from getting weapons right?
    Yep...they hate our freedom

    ...ok, and by going into Iraq we helped terrorist get weapons?
    the evil doers will stop at nothing...For more years!

    ummmm, can you run that by me again Mr President?

  •  The Secrecy is the Worst Part (none / 0)

    This administration is always trying to hush things up in the name of "national security" -- just trust us...  But this one -- there's no rational reason for them to try to keep it secret after the explosives had been stolen.  The only reason is to cover up their incompetence.  Finally, we've got something which is simple enough to fit into a one minute clip on the evening news, easy for the average joe to understand what their motivations were for covering it up, and there's nothing the Bushies can say to refute it...

    Caught with their pants down...

    Game. Set. Match.

  •  wow... (none / 0)


    this is indeed a major story, but, and i am not a troll, i would be careful about assuming this will seal the deal for kerry.  bush et al are very good at spinning stuff, and the media may indeed just pass on this... and even if they do focus on it, remember, in 2000 they brought out the drunk driving stuff... i thought that would knock bush out in all states... as near as i can tell, it didnt have much affect.

    kerry/clinton/et al need to really push this in visual stunning ways.  ideally they can get reinforced by military folks and some GOP senators.

    •  Sure its major.. (none / 0)

      ... as I said.. and as other political commentators have said.. once Kerry hammered on Bush''s mistakes in Iraq.. his ratings soared... when he went back to talking economy... many said he shouldnt have.. (including David Olive of the Toronto Star.. which I wrote about) because Iraq was the big election issue and people were underwhelmed by the economy issue.

      This story is 10-100 times bigger potentially then anything befreo.. not only does it magnify the incompetence and negilenge and the fact this has in all probability armed the rebels killing US soldiers for a long time.. THEY COVERED IT UP..

      Americans, for all their faults I have with them over not being a very smart electorate.. hate coverups... they will not react well to any of this.

      If Kerry and surrogates dont hammer on this til the end of Nov 1.. I think they will have thrown a major opportunity away.

    •  broader issue (none / 0)

      Yeah, I just hope they don't CROSSFIRE this issue - this has NOTHING to do with POLITICS, and EVERYTHING to do with our safety
  •  I can't even begin to express (none / 0)

    my disgust.

    This is yet another complete betrayal of trust by George W. Bush and all the cronies in his administration.  

    God willing, we will have a new President, and hopefully, he won't have to spend his entire first term cleaning up the mess and failures of the previous administration.  

  •  I really hope the media actually wakes up (none / 0)

    They have let so many big stories go with no coverage that I'm concerned that they let this one slide too.  I really hope they don't this time.  He's the worst president ever and he needs to be exposed.

    Click here for all your political gear, including new laser etching technology! Don't like mine? Make your own!

    by sgilman on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:24:07 PM PST

  •  200 Chevy Impalas (none / 0)

    By my rough calculations, that 380 tons is equivalent to 220 in weight to 220 of the new souped-up Chevy Impalas.

    The stuff was not guarded and was allowed to walk -- if anything weighing 380 tons can be said to "walk."

    And it is stunning that no one has been asked to resign.  I guess we only have one choice, and fortunately the opportunity is coming soon.  It's time to get rid of the whole damned incompetent crew.

    •  Sorry for my lousy typing. (none / 0)

      Here's what I meant to say

      220 Chevy Impalas

      By my rough calculations, that 380 tons is equivalent in weight to 220 of the new souped-up Chevy Impalas.

      The stuff was not guarded and was allowed to walk -- if anything weighing 380 tons can be said to "walk."

      And it is stunning that no one has been asked to resign.  I guess we only have one choice, and fortunately the opportunity is coming soon.  It's time to get rid of the whole damned incompetent crew.

    •  One car bomb a day for *220 Years* (none / 0)

      User "space" posted this upthread:

      350 TONS (lets just say 365 tons, or 730,000 lbs) is enough (at 10 lbs/blast) for a car bomb a day for 200 years

      I'm posting this with the newer stuff because I don't want it to get lost.  In fact, I want to hear this sound byte on the news.

      Is what I am doing *right now* leading to happiness?

      by jbdigriz on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:40:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Our surprise is better [n/t] (none / 0)

  •  hmmm (none / 0)

    could this be why some MAJOR conservatives have been jumping ship this past week?

    Seems to me that they would be getting the reports and info from the IAEA before anyone else.

    "I just can't stop myself"

    by circuithead on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:29:02 PM PST

  •  Let's get busy writing LTEs (none / 0)

    Take 10 minutes right now to write to your local newspaper and to the TV shows, asking them to cover this story.

    If you need contact info,  you can find addresses here.

    Thank you, Howard Dean!

    by Ruth in OR on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:29:51 PM PST

    •  don't forget (none / 0)

      don't forget our HERO John Stewart :)

      I can see alot of mileage out of this for him.

      BTW...

      OT...

      Did you see 60 minutes tonight?

      Considering the demographics of the average 60 minutes viewer...expect viewership to expand for John Stewart.  He did an excellent job on 60 min. tonight.

      "I just can't stop myself"

      by circuithead on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:33:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  great idea (none / 0)

      those of you like me stuck in a non-battleground state, this is your envelope-licking, call-list type duty.  follow the link, but don't be afraid to add some battleground media to write to as well.

      this is very simple-- if this story actually penetrates the SCLM, it's devistating.  if it doesn't, we've lost one of the greatest opportunities in the final days to turn some votes.

  •  Drop the Mother Lode alright (none / 0)

    Rather than "Al Qaqaa" it sounds like it's "All Kaka."  The Bush Posse proves again that it's the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

    "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

    by PrahaPartizan on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:29:59 PM PST

  •  Atlanta Journal Constitution (none / 0)

    just picked it up on its site.
  •  intentionally given away (none / 0)

    Bush's handlers allowed this to happen.  Why?  They need unending war for their scare tactics to work, and you can't have unending war if the enemy has no teeth.  They're in the business of creating and supplying enemies so that Bushco can continue to rule and profit.  What they did not foresee was that the spooks would let the cat out of the bag.

    "I've opposed this war since it was just a malignant smirk on George Bush's face." -- Billmon 10/18/06

    by tsurube on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:37:09 PM PST

  •  Pardon the repost (none / 1)

    Posted in #13 open thread:

    "If you know anything about explosives, and even if you don't, this is a massive amount of easily transportable, dividable, easily ignitable very strong explosive.

    The fact that it is also a detonator for nuclear fissile material is just a bonus. An ugly bonus, but not really the purpose for which it being used. YET.

    I have wondered for months about what the administration has been calling IED's. the official explanation was always diffuse (pardon the esoteric pun).

    It went like this. The extremists, insurgents, evil doers, etc, were using old artillery rounds, old mines, old satchel charges and the like to which they were adding scrap metal and det cord triggered with timers like cellphones, two way radios etc.

    This never sat well with me. Too many bombs,  too many dead. (added, I knew there was another source. I thought it was resource from Iran. )

    Frankly the whole situation comes a lot more clear now. This explosive discovery bodes badly for not just the Iraq situation, but for worldwide use as well. It will become a sort of currency among thieves. The chance for more of the same elsewhere becomes decidedly more grim. A small portion of this stuff could make not just a shipping container a bomb, but the whole damn ship it came on a bomb. A very destructive thought. Ouch.

    I hope Kerry can make this an issue. This isn't just incompetence. It is intentional negligence. This stuff should have been a target before the war. Just pop the stuff so it doesn't come back to hurt you. but no--let's just  ignore it......... God, how these people are perceived as masters of the universe just continually amazes me. They are broadly and totally corrupt."

    Now more, Here is the bottom line. Bush is THE grave danger facing the American electorate. I hope Clinton hits this really hard tomorrow. Really, really hard.

    I have had a couple of hours to digest this. I think this is an impeachable offense greater than the Nixon cover up. This cover up is a crime against the country.

    Single payer IS the answer.

    by oofer on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:37:24 PM PST

  •  May explain Cheney's certainty (none / 0)

    350 tons = 700,000 lbs. That is enough to blow up a lot of buildings and people here or our soldiers there.

    Is VP Cheney getting ready to declare war?

    Could this have something to do with his certainty that we either elect BC04, or ELSE!!!!   That would mean his sour prediction isn't a warning but a threat.

    How much clearer does reality have to be???

  •  Just for a little perspective.... (none / 0)

    We're talking about a facility with 380 tons of HDX and RDX, right? That's, let's see, times two thousand, hmm, er, sixteen, carry the one...

    760,000 pounds of this stuff.  That's an awful lot of PanAm 103s at less than a pound a plane.

    I wonder where it will turn up? Could it be, for example, here, where the Times of India notes that

    In a major breakthrough, five kg RDX (note from sheba--okay, that could account for eleven pounds) and two and half kg of gelatin sticks were recovered by a joint police team of Meghalaya and Assam from a house at Tikrikilla in West Garo Hill district, police said.
    ...
    Of late, Tikrikilla has been a hub of militant activities with three CRPF personnel sustaining injuries in an IED blast in January last.

    Let's see...what do we know here...In India, finding eleven pounds of RDX is considered "a major breakthrough," whereas in Iraq 760,000 pounds of the stuff has gone missing...it can be used to detonate nuclear devices...it can be used to make IEDs.

    Oh, yeah, America is safer.  Riiiiiiiiiiight.

    There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. --Benjamin Disraeli, cited by Mark Twain

    by sheba on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:40:20 PM PST

  •  All I keep thinking about (none / 0)

    is what it's like to be stationed in Iraq and reading this online.  Although maybe this is common knowledge amongst the troops.

    I'm going to sleep depressed.

  •  So is Bush still confident (none / 0)

    that he wouldn't do anything differently in Iraq?

    Bipartisan implies a two way street.

    by Tiparillo on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:41:12 PM PST

  •  The new meme for Bush (none / 0)

    [b]INCOMPETENT[/b] on terrorism.

    Say it, sing it, KerryCo.

  •  please post additional coverage of the story... (none / 0)


    please give links of any other newspapers, etc, that provide coverage of this story!!
  •  Here's their financing? (none / 0)

    I should probably re-read the NYT article, but I'm wondering if this material could, in addition to being used in Iraq to blow up our soldiers and civilians, also be used as a source of funding for the insurgency - if it's stable, could it not be sold all over the world on the black market to finance, say, more armaments or other things for the Iraqi resistance/Al Quaida?  

    Has the Bush administration replaced the Saudis as the principal financier of terror?  Inquiring minds want to know.

    •  I doubt it (none / 0)

      Bush is to busy posing for recuirting poster for terrorist. It just unbelievable that the civilan leadership in the pentagon is still there. The have screwed everything up, I would expect to be fired for doing half as bad as job as this. arrggghh

      If the majority believe a lie, does that make it the truth?

      by Low Spark on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 08:57:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Under IAEA seal (none / 0)

    Between this and the North Korea fiasco, I'm failing to see the wisdom in this whole "under IAEA seal" thing.

    Don't get me wrong, this is a major, major screwup by Bush and Company ("They'll greet us with flower petals, why should we bother guarding the explosives?"), but if this stuff (and NK's nuclear rods) had been removed rather than "put under seal", this wouldn't have happened.

    •  Removed by who? (none / 0)

      What the fuck are you talking about?
      •  The IAEA. (none / 0)

        The same people who put them under seal in the first place.

        There's obviously some sort of treaty in place where countries can use nuclear fuel for energy purposes, under the condition that the IAEA can put the spent rods under seal.

        That treaty should be modified to allow the IAEA to remove them and send them to Oak Ridge, or whatever.

        Similarly, there was obviously some sort of treaty, probably imposed as a condition of ending the first Gulf War, that the IAEA could put this 380 tons of stuff under seal.  Future treaties should have them destroying or removing it instead.

        Due to the strange aggressiveness of your reply ("what the fuck are you talking about"), I feel it may be necessary for me to say this:

        Don't get me wrong, given that 380 tons of high explosives are missing and probably in the hands of terrorists, I'm glad that it's Bush's fault.

        But I'm not glad that 380 tons of high explosives are missing and probably in the hands of terrorists.

        •  Explosives (none / 0)

          The Iraqis were allowed to have these explosives because they have nonnuclear uses. (Yea, forsooth, even peaceful uses, such as for construction and demolition.) I would like to propose that you can't very well run a country without explosives, so moving all the explosives to Oak Ridge is right out.
        •  The IAEA (none / 0)

          Just to clarify the IAEA's role in all of this, they were interested because these types of explosives could be used in a nuclear weapon, and they wanted to keep tabs on these explosives. However, these sorts of explosives are widely used for other uses. Moving these explosives to Oak Ridge would be somewhat akin to moving all large electric motors to Oak Ridge because electric motors could be used to refine uranium for a nuclear weapon.
    •  Removed by whom (none / 0)

      and put where? Who would be trusted to safeguard such materials? Who trustworthy and neutral enough to do it would WANT to?

      Identifying dangerous materials, with frequent verification and surveilance, is by far the most workable system short of destroying such materials, and even that becomes a problem: who destroys it, how do you prove it was destroyed?

      One of the most dangerous things about the Bush Administration is how badly they've undermined the kind of trust and communication necessary to make non-proliferation work.

  •  filed under doubtful (none / 1)

    The White House said President Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, was informed within the past month that the explosives were missing. It is unclear whether President Bush was informed.
    no punchline needed here
  •  DRILL THIS HOME KERRY: BUSH IS INCOMPETENT! (none / 0)


    The Bush Administration allowed 380 tons of explosives to be taken out of Iraq - those explosives were used to kill soldiers in the field. A few POUNDS of the same explosives were used to blow-up the Pan Am flight over Lockerbie, Scotland.

    Even when the IAEA said - hey, let us have a look. Bush stood tall alright...and know 1100 American families have lost their sons, brothers, and husbands...

    This is what happens when we have an incompetent President. People are put into more danger. Now the terrorists have all those tons of explosives, and the whole world is in more danger. All thanks to the incompetence of President Bush.  

    •  No (none / 0)

      It's not about that - we shouldn't make this a political issues - b/c they'll try and spin  it - it has to be the press asking the freaking hard questions and not fucking sitting there - its so much more than John Kerry or George BUsh
  •  I don't want to upset y'all but... (none / 0)

    Does the refusal of the USA to co-operate with the Nuclear Inspectors by declaring this loss mean that Canada can now legitimately invade you?
  •  Size (none / 0)

    Based on a density of 1.91, that is 6376.6 cubic feet, which is a cube 18.5 feet on a side, or a sphere 23 feet in diameter, or 47700 Gallon milk jugs, or about 3 20 foot shipping containers(This would exceed their max weight, however). I think that makes clear how much explosive we are dealing with here.
    •  Maybe the Insurgents Paid Halliburton to Haul It (none / 0)

      Stop and think.  Who else would have the means to haul that much cargo?  Halliburton.

      380 Tons would be over 700 trips in those little trucks the insurgents use.  

      Depending on the truck, Halliburton can haul between 20 and 80 tons with one truck load.  

      Plus, who's going to load that much by hand?  Who has most of the the big fork lifts over there these days?

      Who has free access to almost anyplace in-country over there these days?

      Halliburton

      What company is the biggest prostitute in Iraq these days?

      Halliburton

      •  Three Kings... (none / 0)

        this is the "real gold" contained within Iraq.

        Was property of Saddam Hussein. Now the property of "who knows who".

        And it has gone missing.

        Wonder how many well fires could be capped by 750,000 pounds of high explosives?

        People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

        by rgilly on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 04:12:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  20 Trailer loads (none / 0)

      It was posted up thread that this would take 20 semi trailers fully loaded and top of the line roads and bridges. Having some experience loading semis with a forklift, they would have needed several days of nonstop activity to move it all. And that's with forklifts or at the minimum pallet jacks adn assuming it was sitting on pallets ready to be loaded.

      "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" Mohandas Gandhi

      by baracon on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:48:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is it possible we took it... (none / 0)

        and just didn't tell the IAEA?  Moving 20 truckloads does seem implausible.  One would think at least the military wouldn't be that incompetent.  Of course that assumes it was there after we won.  Perhaps Sadaam moved it prior to the invasion.  There's more to this story to be reported.  Let's hope that's what gets covered this week as it's probably bad news for Bush.  Unfortunately, if the bad guys got it, it's worse news for everyone else.

        IOKIYAR! They believe markets and competition solve everything AND that the universe is centrally planned.

        by No One No Where on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 08:04:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  satellite photos? (none / 0)

      you'd think that they'd have some kind of intel via satellite photos to notice a freaking caravan of trucks taking these explosives.  at least some basic monitoring...  

      i'm not saying that they could ID the people taking it, but they might at least say "uh, somebody took it" on this day and left in that direction -- then they could've at least sounded the warning... doesn't sound like they even did that.

      Buy Renewable Energy Now! Choose Your Power or Green Tags

      by drh on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 12:09:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Being reported on CNN! (none / 0)

    Right now!  But only a quick blurb.

    This is OUTRAGEOUS.

  •  Well (none / 0)

    I guess we should be happy that the inspections were working, because if Iraq would have had any WMDs, who know where they would be today.  Years from now, military historian will point to this as how not to plan a war and occupation( If there was a plan{

    If the majority believe a lie, does that make it the truth?

    by Low Spark on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:02:20 PM PST

  •  CNN catches the ball, looks bewildered (none / 0)

     
    CNN just mentioned the NYTimes story at the end of their 11pm news hour. The anchor emphasized "THREE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY TONS" with a slighty raised eyebrow.
  •  More from Talkingpointsmemo.com (none / 0)

    'One administration official told Nelson, "This is the stuff the bad guys have been using to kill our troops, so you can't ignore the political implications of this, and you would be correct to suspect that politics, or the fear of politics, played a major role in delaying the release of this information."'

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_10_24.php#003778

    Wow.

    "Against the assault of laughter, nothing can stand." - Mark Twain

    by GrimReefa on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:05:43 PM PST

    •  This is definitely the story KE04 should... (none / 0)

      ...stick in bush's eye.

      Yes. We. Did. ... Begin.

      by understandinglife on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:07:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  more from TPM (none / 0)

      Josh Marshall is really on top of this story. More from the article quoted above:
      As I've noted, the White House and the Pentagon have known for more than a year that this stuff had gone missing. But the White House, according to TPM sources, has known that this story was coming for at least ten days. Again, not just the underlying facts -- that the stuff had been stolen and was being used against American troops (they've known that for more than a year) -- but the fact that this story was going to break in the not too distant future. And they've been going to great lengths to try to push it back until after the election.

      And since this article, he's posted another one, pointing out that the NYTimes article soft-pedals the cover-up aspect of the story -- and why that spin just doesn't cut it.

  •  Picked up by the Atlanta Journal Constitution (none / 0)

    •  I hope this DOES NOT BECOME POLITICAL (none / 0)

      Seriously - I don't want these rePIGS to spin out of this - this is WAY bigger than John Kerry or George BUsh - this is FUCKING serious- there are 300,000 tonnnes of bombs out there and we have NO fucking clue where they are. That scares me as an American!
      •  Do you hope they don't CROSSFIRE it? (none / 0)

        I'm sorry to be so impolite, but you've posted essentially the same statement about 380 tons of times.
        •  Sorry (none / 0)

          I apologize - I just hope this time it is different - I really think that our country is on the brink of something so serious - and we shouldn't politicize it - even though it will happen - I just think we need answers rather than spin. There are 60 countries who harbour Al qaida. The madrid bombing material could have come from this dump. The amouont of sheer havoc this could cause is beyond thought. I just don't want to hear some repug get up there and say 'Oh, well, we knew it would be hard' I just want some answers - sorry for the repetitivenes - I just read the NYT article and I am pretty shocked.
      •  Well, it is political, but, you are correct... (none / 0)

        ...it is serious shit.

        However, if I were to place money on it, I'll betcha the Halliburton dudes took the stuff.

        Great for excavating, and other geo-non-political uses. And, hell, they got it for trucking costs, probably escorted by US troops! I have no idea what that much synthetics cost but it would be a bunch of buckolas.

        And, a bit of irony, one or more of Cheney/Rummey et al buddies probably were the one's who sold it to Saddam in the first place [through one of their French subsidiaries] ;-)

        Yes. We. Did. ... Begin.

        by understandinglife on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:23:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  If it's on the Times wire (none / 0)

      other papers around the country, even the world, will be picking it up overnight. So Mr. & Mrs. America will get a nice dose of this with their Monday morning coffee.

      If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.--A Boston cabbie, to Gloria Steinem, in the 1970s

      by Mnemosyne on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:30:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bush's Response (none / 0)

    "It's hard work... It's my job... I know how these folks think! I mean, leave no child behind! It's hard work! September 11th, September 11th, September 11th!  I own a timber company?"
  •  Doesn't just demonstrate that (none / 0)

    Bush Administration is incompetent, but also that the IAEA wasn't.   In other words, the UN did keep us safer (even with Saddam) in power than our own government can with Saddam out of power.

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:16:09 PM PST

  •  cnn... (none / 0)


    want to make a bet they will push the stupid washington times story over this?

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041024-110609-9428r.htm

    morons.

  •  At Last Something I can Do! (4.00 / 2)

    Just as an elite British Regiment moves into the Baghdad area to support US troops, this news breaks about the loss of explosives that can threaten their lives - worse, the loss was covered up and not declared by the US government.

    I still have a some contacts left. Later in the day (GMT time) I shall e-mail some British MPs to try and have it raised as a question to the Prime Minister in the House of Commons.

    No arguments from any of you this time - this news is of legitimate British interest,

  •  but, but (none / 1)

    Kerry met with less leaders then he said.

    Al Gore invented internets.

    It's Clinton's fault, and he got a blow job, too!

    Lesbian!

  •  This is not about politics (4.00 / 2)

    I see some people in here gloating as though this about politics. It's not. It's about the lives of people like my cousin who are harms way because of some fucking morons who don't give a shit about their lives. It's me living in NYC where you can bet those explosive may end up threating my life. It's about the fact that you know what- I didn't like Reagan's policy, I didn't like Bush 1's policies- but I never thought they were do something this fucking incompetent as to leave huge numbers of Americans abroad (and here with our pourous borders) in danger of being blown up by a wholy preventable situation. I will admit- I am a partisan- I thought before this that Bush should lose b/c he was not a good president- I thought he was somewhat imcompetent- and too far to the right. Buth this goes beyond incomptence- this is and I dont use these words lightly criminal negligence- if this man is in office after this level of incompetence- i will fear for my country not as a democrat- but as an American- this truly scares me if you didn't get the piture b/c it makes me wonder if they drop the ball on one element of a nuclear weapon in the hands of religous zealots what makes us think they can prevent them from getting the other elements of a bomb?
    •  yeah man (none / 0)

      you said it - That's what I am talking about - it's way more than George Bush or John Kerry.
    •  Holy Christ (none / 0)

      how could this have happened? What the hell were they doing that this slipped by them? What? They didn't notice? They're attention was--where, exactly?

      I and my family live in Northern Virginia, not too far from the Pentagon--and I agree with you wholeheartedly. This isn't a "gotcha" thing. Who the fuck cares about Bush or Kerry or anything else but the fact that these missing explosives--that apparently travel well AND can be used in nuclear as well as conventional weapons--are OUT THERE. Possibly very close by to you, to me, to millions of other Americans. What have Bush and his neo-cons done? Started another 100 years war?  

      I wonder how many American soldiers have been killed by these explosives? How many other innocents will be killed by their negligence, arrogance, incompetence and monstrously selfish behavior?

      Is this what Cheny meant when he said nuclear weapons could be detonated in an American city in the near future? Yeah, I guess the bastard knew, didn't he?

      Jesus, get rid of them. I don't care what it takes anymore. Just get rid of them.

      God DAMN them. And God save us.

      •  asdf (none / 0)

        What have Bush and his neo-cons done? Started another 100 years war?

        That's what they want isn't it?  Perpetual war --> perpetual fear --> perpetual Rethug gov't.

        'Scuse my cynicism, but I really am beginning to think that they'll stop at nothing.  Maybe it's because I can't bring myself to believe that the government of the most powerful nation in the world could be so goddamned incompetent!  Oh yes, and mendacious.

        "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

        by fishhead on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:10:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  whitehouse silence (none / 0)

        so while there were no WMD when we were told that they were, now there probably are, but Condi hasn't bothered to tell the electorate; meantime the whitehouse is utterly silent...

        There is surely no reasonable response they can give to Lockhart's statement?

  •  Numerical Perspective (none / 1)

    given: 380 tons of HMX and RDX were absconded
    given: 1 ton = 2000 pounds
    given: less than 1 pound of this material was required to bring down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland

    Potential carnage > 760000 Lockerbie bombings

    Think about that a sec.  Less than one pound of HMX/RDX can bring down a plane.  760000 pounds are missing and no doubt highly prized across the globe.

    •  will someone please calculate the energy numbers (none / 0)

      It would be interesting to compare the destructive energy in 380 tons of the explosives vs. the energy in a tank of jet fuel. Sadly, it would be easy for the average American to understand just how big this is if it were put into terms like "enough to take down x number of towers..."
      •  Well... (none / 0)

        ...theoretically, placed in the right spots the right way so as to weaken the structural members, I imagine 100 kilos would be quite sufficient to bring down an average skyscraper.  If not collapse it entirely, at least make it look like the Murrah Building.  So, say 3400 skyscrapers.
         
  •  The whole lot of them -- (none / 0)

    Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Feith, Wolfowitz, and all their followers and hangers-on -- should be loaded into a transport plane and disgorged upon the tarmac at the Baghdad airport.

    There, they should be given the unarmored vehicles being used by U.S. troops, the inadequate body armor, no air cover, and told to find their own way into the city proper.

    If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.--A Boston cabbie, to Gloria Steinem, in the 1970s

    by Mnemosyne on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:35:49 PM PST

  •  Bruh1 (none / 0)

    I sympathise with your reaction and agree with your comments.

    Reading this thread, however, I cannot agree with you when you write "I see some people in here gloating as though this about politics."

    What I believe that you are seeing here is an overwhelming reaction to at last there being irrefutable evidence about the incompetence and mismanagement of a war that was wrong in the first place. It is the reaction of people who have faced three years of lies, cover ups and manipulative spin.

    Politics eneters the discussion here simply because it is the mechanism for addressing an evil that has disregarded every international treaty and humanitarian organisation that world leaders have carefully constructed since World War 11 to prevent the abuse of power. I say this as a centerist moderate who has become indignant and ashamed and angered over what has occurred.

  •  Finding 350 tons of explosives is... (none / 1)

    HARD WORK
  •  CNN (none / 1)

    if CCCPN... I mean, CNN tries to downplay this thing, politicize it and yes (verb of the century) CROSSFIRE it, I swear I'll fly down to Atlanta myself and throw a fucking brick through their windows.

    stop marching on my freedom.

    by sunzoo on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:46:15 PM PST

  •  Maybe the Insurgents Paid Halliburton to Haul It (none / 1)

    Stop and think.  

    380 Tons would be over 700 trips in those little trucks the insurgents use.  

    Who else would have the means to haul that much cargo?  

    Halliburton.

    Depending on the truck, who can haul between 20 and 80 tons with one truck load?

    Halliburton.

    Plus, who's going to load that much by hand?  Who has most of the the big fork lifts over there these days?

    Halliburton

    Who has free access to almost anyplace in-country over there these days?

    Halliburton.

    What company is the biggest prostitute in Iraq these days?

    Halliburton.

    Stop and think.

  •  channel the anger, channel the sarcasm (4.00 / 2)

    Ok.

    If this outspins us, it is OUR FAULT.

    We have to hit the media hard.

    Hit the media now.

    and make the obvious points that the NYT article does not make.

    1. They are using this stuff against us now.
    2. It is Bush's fault for not sending more troops because they apparently did not have enough forces to cover this vital ammo dump.
    3. The administration has tried to keep this from us for a year.
    4. They have tried to suppress the reports now.
    5. This is serious, serious, serious, serious stuf.
    6. If the media screws this up, it's their fault too.

    and the strongest point...

    7. This is direct and irrefutable evidence that the invasion of Iraq has now made us LESS SAFER FROM TERRORISTS.

    "I just can't stop myself"

    by circuithead on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:51:06 PM PST

  •  Did the CIA make sure this info got out????? (none / 0)

    BEFORE the election?

    Anybody wanna bet whether all the windows at CIA HQ will be wide open over the next 9 days?????

    *How could 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?*

    by clueless on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 09:51:39 PM PST

  •  No wonder Bush said: (none / 0)

    The war is not winnable

    The Pandora's Box has been opened.

  •  What kind of... (none / 0)

    ...fucking neglect, malign stupidity, and rabid incompetance has this administration brought upon this nation? I am counting the hours until they get their comeuppance. I am not happy, and yet I hope upon hope that this lands on BushCo and Rummy like a ton of bricks.

    380 Tons of high explosives.

    Less than one pound sent the Pan Am 103 flight down in Lockerbie, Scotland.

    For me there's little more to be said except: Give me my ballot!

  •  drudge (none / 0)


    drudge highlighting security council story...
  •  LTE (none / 0)

    Dear Security Mom's....

    Guess what?

    "I just can't stop myself"

    by circuithead on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:01:07 PM PST

  •  OK, LET'S CUT THE CRAP (none / 0)



    There's no war ON terror. It's a war FOR terror. Look, when the phony "Cold War" ended, the military-industrial-oil complex types were caught with their pants down. Suddenly, nothing to lean their bullshit on. They needed a new phony threat to justify doing virtually anything they goddammed pleased, without being questioned in advance, or called to account afterwards. But then Bush I got bounced, and Clinton wasn't their kinda guy.

    By SHEER coincidence (without even a real election), within nine months of Bush II's inauguration, 9/11 "happens." We don't do much of anything about it, except make the Shrub look "Presidential," suspend the Constitution, emasculate the Dem's, and finish invading Iraq. Oh, and we declare there's a NEW Boogeyman in town, even more scarier and more insidious than them dern pesky Rooskies, who, truth be told, were never REALLY under the bed.

    But that there OSAMA sure is, right on up under the duvet! OK, there hasn't been a big attack since 9/11, but that's cuz Dubya is so on the BALL, Right? Well, except in Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, N. Korea... Where, it seems, he's just djinning up every possible threat the M-I-O Complex could ever have DREAMED of, for YEARS to come.

    And so, with a fond farewell, George W. Bush takes his hip flask, his tiny little spoon necklace, and rides off into the sunset on a mechanical bull. The end.

    Except for President Kerry, and his successors, and the rest of us, who will have to deal with the mechanical bull's droppings for MANY years to come.

    THE END

  •  More questions than answers? (none / 0)

    If the UN inspectors knew Sadam had this crap, there are still a myriad of unanswered questions.

    1. How long did he have this crap?
    2. Why wasn't he forced by the inspectors to dispose of it earlier?
    3. Where did it come from?
    4. Was it one of the many gifts from the "Great Communicator" and his friend Rummy?

    Add your own.
    •  These are conventional munitions (none / 0)

      They do not come under any of the headings of proscribed materiel.

      Saddam DID have Iran on its left flank, and we could not leave his coutry defenseless.  

      Remember IRAN was the country whose people we were fighting when we SOLD Saddam the WMDs in the first place.  Saddam was our surrogate for almost the entire 1980s, and then we turned on him.

      Rumsfeld was thick in THAT deal, so he KNEW Saddam had them - but Saddam was supposed to use them on the Iranians, not the Kurds.  (BTW, the Kurds were NOT "his own people"; Bush's endless assertions that he gassed his own people is not factual. They were to Saddam as the Chechyns are to Putin.)

      We set up Saddam in the Kuwait war, telling him his invasion of Kuwait was between them, then the next day demonizing him for doing it - yet we basically said, "Go ahead".  We played him for a sucker.

      All this goes back to Mossadeqh in 1952, and for the Brits back to their pullout in the late 1940s.   Bad decisions, piled on bad choices, stacked on poor policies . . .

      The sins of the fathers . . .

      Bush is just the creme de la creme of FUBAR.

      THIS packet of munitions was just simply not an invalid item for Iraq to have on hand.  all countries are entitled to have weapons for defneding themselves.  The UN would not - and the USA SHOULD not - deign to proscribe non-WMDs.  COULD these items be re-categorized?  Possibly.  But since it hsn't been done, they remain within the clssification of nirmal munitions.

      [I make assumptions here that they are not WMDs because the inspectors allowed them.  Had they been illegal or counter to the UN sanctions, the inspectors would have done more than just note their existence.]

  •  Worth noting. Anyone think (none / 0)

    This could have something to do with this:

    http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6588680

    Busco signalled they were dropping their opposition to the reappointment of the IAEA chief three days ago (!).

    'Yes, ok, Mr ElBaradei, we support you.  Just keep quiet for a week or two, will you?  There's a good fellow

  •  Feel more secure? (none / 0)

    The Kerry campaign should imediately put out an ad raising GW's favorite issue of who will keep America more secure Kerry or GWB (who kept our military in Iraq stretched so thin that it couldn't adequately protect the 380 TONS of the most dangerous conventional explosive used by the world's military).

    If this is combined with GWB's comment on Hammidy today that the war on terrorism is "up in the air" should convince the "undecided voters" that it is better to have someone who actually volunteered to defend his country, rather than a pair of Texas oilmen who used their connections and deferments to avoid defending their country by putting their lives on the line.

    FYI, I was 1Y (the Vietnam era's 4F) and could not be drafted or join as a volunteer, but I still view those who used every possible deferments or pulled stings to get into the "National Guard" to avoid going to VN as courards! The truely brave were those who served or who were willing to be honest about their feelings and became CO (consentious objectors) or went to Canada rather than be drafted.

    Ken near Gun Lake, A voice crying in the wilderness of Rethug Allegan County.

    by Ken the Troll on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:17:33 PM PST

  •  One Roadside Bombs Every Hour for 23 Years (none / 1)

    It only takes a few pounds of this stuff to make a lethal roadside bomb. The arithmentic: 700,000 pounds / 3.5 pounds per bomb = 200,000 bombs / 8,760 hours in a year (24 hours x 365 days) = 22.83 years.

    That's one way of looking at the reality of this disaster.

    The politics, however, needs to focus on the coverup -- use that word again and again and again, and use it not merely as a campaign mantra, but as a way of assigning blame for what is obviously criminal malfeasance of Biblical proportions.

    Coverup.

    Coverup.

  •  Is it just me... (none / 0)

    who expects at least a few more stories like this before election day? This administration has gone to war with the CIA and there are people at the CIA who are mucking fad. And the way the State Department's plan for the reconstruction of Iraq was ignored, the folks there are pissed too. So I wouldn't be surprised if they have saved the juiciest leaks for the last week before the election. All in all, good news for Kerry!
  •  more articles... (none / 0)


    MSNBC picked the story up:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6323933/
    (it is very brief and not nearly as harsh as the NYT article)
  •  Australia... (none / 0)


    why are int'l papers always better at staying on the ball than our own US media sources?  Sigh.  Australia picks the story up:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1227337.htm

  •  looks as though... (none / 0)


    looks as though both msnbc and australia are reuters feeds...
  •  Republican spin (none / 0)

    "You must re-elect George W. Bush because now we know the terrorists have WMD, and you can't trust John Kerry to keep you safe--he wants to negotiate with terrorists, W wants to kill them."

    The fact that it's entirely W's fault that the terrorists have WMD will be utterly ignored, and simply treated as a valid reason to vote for him.

    If the media is not completely spineless, it won't work; but they'll try it.

    The world isn't logical, it's a song. -David Byrne

    by Leslie in CA on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:35:27 PM PST

    •  er-- (none / 0)

      Sorry.  The fact of the terrorists' possession of WMD is what will be treated as a valid reason to vote for W, while the fact of his culpability will be ignored.

      The world isn't logical, it's a song. -David Byrne

      by Leslie in CA on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:37:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  and here's ours (none / 0)

      W and crew couldn't find and protect the weapons and explosive stuff that we KNEW EVERYTHING ABOUT INCLUDING LOCATION AND QUANTITY.  How are can we expect them to find the stuff that we Don't know about?

      "I just can't stop myself"

      by circuithead on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 10:38:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Story being covered by MSNBC and Reuters.. (none / 0)

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6323933/

    ok...it's starting to stick. By tomorrow, it should have shrub sputtering even more 'up in the air' 'been forgotten' ........

  •  smuggling explosives (none / 0)

    This stuff will come across the border wrapped in a bale of marijuana, in a backpack.  Lots of it, soon.  The concept of not guarding this goes beyond incompetence.  There isn't a word that I can come up with to describe this crew.  Well, I guess that now we wait for the shoe to drop, and drop and drop.  Never ending war, never ending explosions. Bush should get Gotti's old cell in Marion, Ill.  

    If this is what you get with a dynasty in charge, let's get rid of Jeb too, while there is still a chance he can be kicked out of office too. Send the whole bunch of them to Crawford (sorry crawford, I know it isn't your fault or choice.} or where ever they won't be comfortable.  I have it the space station, just forget to go and get them. THat would take them  out of the circle of influence.

    •  Two things here - (none / 0)

      One is tht I just mentioned below a few posts something about the Teflon Don, and I look up and see you did, too.  I hope it is something in the air.

      The other - GW and Jeb:
      Dim and Dimmer

      I would prefer seeing them in a diamond mine seeral miles below the surface, and with oral searches at the end of every shift.  And don't forget to pack Ashcroft and Rummie and Rice.  Powell?  He should get to be their shift Boss - he is the only one who has ever managed anything successfully.  Though he DID lie to the UN - and the USA - and the world - and G_D . . . and then DIM W lied the USA again - and then the world again - and then the USA again - and then... I thnk I have left out some lies there, but you get the drift . . .

  •  Help needed (none / 0)

    The lead to this thread states:

    "What also emerges in the Nelson Report is that the Defense Department has been trying to keep this secret for some time."

    Am I missing it in the NYT, but I didn't see a reference to anything called the "Nelson Report"? Is it there? If not, where will I find a reference to it and to this particular assertion?

    I need this info to send off e-mails on the subject.

  •  STORY EXPANDED... (none / 0)


    If you check out the story again on the NY Times, it now runs to 4 pages rather than the initial 3.  Not sure what additional content was added...
  •  Cliches about "Bush's Box" . . . (none / 0)

    So we find out about MORE FUBARS in Iraq.

    So what's new?

    Jimmy Carter got bounced to a high degree because our miltary messed up in the desert, one of the most embarrassing moments in military history.

    DUB has a never-ending litany of failures and outright screw-ups, care of our esteemed Rummie, yet the only head that's rolled is Tenet, whose people at least TRIED to give the straight dope to the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

    I don't think the term Pandora's Box was EVER used back in March, 2003, but it has turned out to be the most appropriate term - with the possible exception of "fiasco".  Bush should have been known (or BEEN informed) that he was opening Pandora's Box when he went into Iraq.  But no one did.  Maybe we should re-name the principle to "Bush's Box" now.

    They were so sure we would be welcomed with open arms by the Shi'as - the same Shi'as that control Iran and who held our Embassy people for 444 days.  

    Well none of their scenarios held true; we opened a hornets nest, and the Bushitters don't know how to put the cat back in the bag.

    We went into a location where we didn't know what it was we were getting into.  Well, folks, back where I come from, that is called just plain DUMB.

    This Village Idiot has never HEARD of Risk Assessment.  He just gets a feeling, and people end up dead.  When the Teflon Don did that, we sent him up the river.

    We can point out particulars till we are blue in the face, but that would be water over the dam.  We have to find a way to extricate our boys and girls.

    The Patriot Act I has been a case of closing the barn door after the horses got out.

    And the Bushitters wouldn't know good intelligence if they tripped over it - which they did.

    And they have made America a laughing stock all over the world.  Any one travelling overseas spends much of their time apologizing for the fruitcake we didn't elect.  People REALLY DO look at us like "Boy, you people are PATHETIC, for electing that buffoon."  Informing them that we DIDN'T elect him doesn't seem to carry much weight.

    Ah, America the wonderful!  Thank you, Dim Bulb, for making our lives so much better.  Maybe we can improve if we import Baby Doc Duvalier or - is Idi Amin still alive?

  •  Best case scenario (none / 0)

    Lets say Osama paid Halliburton to cart 380 Tons of RDX to a secret location using Saudi petro-dollars.

    Halliburton uses Lebanese drivers at $125K per year while double dipping the U.S. army contract on the side so that it will make a huge killing, er, I mean profit.

    The U.S. army refuses to pay Halliburton, 'cuz Osama's got all the receipts for expenses incurred.

    And the army instead uses the cash to buy back guns and explosives from Iraqis that it forgot to guard because we were busy with the oil ministry.

    Iraqi terrorists sell the guns back at a profit but choose to use RDX to blow up more U.S. soldiers instead.

    And the U.S. bombs the fuck out of someone else that lives in the same city.

    And then, pays blood money so that Iraqis who lost a family member wont get mad as we know the Arab mind from watching "Lawrence of Arabia" on TBS.

    And some of that money goes back to Saudi Arabia because Iraq now needs to import oil which it lacks.

    And because (we hope) the Saudis have nowhere to put all that money but buy U.S. bonds , we get it all back!

    Milo: "They make a profit of one cent apiece, I make a profit of three and a half cents apiece, and everybody comes out ahead".

    Yossarian: "Everybody but the syndicate. The syndicate is paying five cents apiece for plum tomatoes that cost you only half a cent apiece. How does the syndicate benefit?"

    Milo: "The syndicate benefits when I benefit".

    Catch-22

    "Self-regulation is to regulation as self-importance is to importance." Willem Buiter

    by Bronxist on Sun Oct 24, 2004 at 11:34:37 PM PST

  •  cnn picks it up... (none / 0)


    but of course they defocus it by only putting it in the international edition:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/25/iraq.explosives.reut/

  •  That's all well and good (none / 0)

    But remember, if John Kerry is elected, we won't be safe.
  •  How to explain to others? (none / 0)

    I think this should be explained in as simple terms as possible, so I'm trying to come up with the right way to explain it.

    First, a layman might confuse it with WMD.. its just explosives.
    Need to pick the right words in order to frame it.. dynamite and tnt are what the average person knows, so we should use words something like dynamite equivalent or high-tech tnt.

    Second, we need to hammer that we knew about it, knew exactly where it was, and let it be lost.. and then covered-up the loss.

    Third, we need to give some kind of comparison to give a picture of the size of it, instead of a dry number.
    Whats the number of commercial airplanes in service now? something like 10k? If that number is true, then its enough explosives to take down the entire worlds airline fleet 70 times. or maybe fill in the numbers here.. how many buildings the remaining explosives take down?

    On second thought.. its actually is too horrendous to contemplate how awful this really is for america. The sheer weight of this number gives so much destructive power. Political or not, this is a disaster for America.

  •  this is... (none / 0)


    this is NOT a good way to present the facts.  it comes across like we discovered WMD:

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002071912_idig25.html

  •  A dirty bomb in US thanks to Bush (none / 0)

    It wasn't only 380 tons of conventional explosives that dissapeared. Also tons of nuclear waste : Cesium, Strontium and other dirty bomb materials.

    Al Qaeda and other terror groups have long been seeking Cesium.

    A dirty bomb is a regular explosive bomb, spiked with nuclear waste, to contaminate people.

    Bush gave both ingredients to Zarqawi and Al Qaeda for free.

    Zarqawi + Iraq chaos and looting + underfunded Homeland Security = Dirty bomb in US

    Experts have been ranting about the nuclear waste "gift" to terror for a long time. Even Newsmax acknowledged the risk

    The White House also expressed concern that some of the waste, which could be of use to terrorists, could have found its way onto the black market through looters who may have entered the complex during the war. .. while the amount of unaccounted for nuclear waste is too small to fashion a conventional nuclear bomb, there still appears to be enough to fashion a "dirty" bomb

    See more here

    Daily Kos :: NUKE MATERIAL GONE MISSING ? Or found at Al Qaeda ?

    Daily Kos :: Bushies let WMD material be looted for 1 year

    I even suspect that Kay, Duelfer and Powell's repeated claims of "Saddam had no WMD" were to cover up the fact that the WMD was looted right under Bush's nose
    Daily Kos :: Bushies: Saddam had no WMD (!) - WTF ?!?!?

    To Libertarians: People who spent the last 8 years in a coma have not earned the right to be taken seriously.

    by lawnorder on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 12:25:04 AM PST

  •  Can we say "October Surpise"? (none / 0)

    Come on, people, THINK!

    1. We have only Allawi's word for it that this stuff is missing.

    2. After the Inspectors left - a few days before the war - we don't know that it was overlooked.  Even if Bushco says they did, how many OTHER lies have we caught them in?  SPECULATING that it is in the hands of terrorists is a guessing game that we can't win.  It could just as easily be in the hands of Bushco itself.  THAT IS MY BET.

    3. We have been expecting Rove - as you say - to pull off something near the election.

    WELL, PEOPLE, WE ARE NEAR THE ELECTION.

    5. If Bushco has it, I can assure you it is now IN THE USA, and will be used to sandbag the Iraqis and Al Qaeda, and sucker the US citizenry.  If there are explosions between now and Nov 2nd, I assure you it is OUR black Ops doing it on behalf of the Bush-Cheny Re-Election Campaign.

    Rove gets us again.

    Why is everybody jumping on this badwagon?  We all know Allawi is s US stooge.  He wouldn't have brought this up NOW, 9 days before the election, unless there is some payoff.  

    WE KNEW THEY WERE THERE.  They would not have gotten lost in the shuffle.

    And they DIDN'T.
    In the meantime, Rove/Cheney - psychopaths and sociopaths that they are, will apply these to our midsection to provide the biggest bang for the buck: winning the FReaking election.

    WE ARE BEING HAD, AS WE SPEAK.

    "White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished sometime after the American-led invasion last year."

    What a setup!"sometime after", as in "when we trucked them off to ship to the US".

    "The International Atomic Energy Agency publicly warned about the danger of these explosives before the war, and after the invasion it specifically told United States officials about the need to keep the explosives secured, European diplomats said in interviews last week. Administration officials say they cannot explain why the explosives were not safeguarded, beyond the fact that the occupation force was overwhelmed by the amount of munitions they found throughout the country."

    The Administration blather is nothing more than smokescreen.

    THIS STUFF HAS BEEN MISSING FOR 18 MONTHS, AND WE ARE SUPPOSE TO GET WORKED UP ABOUT IT NOW?

    WHY?

    OCTOBER SURPRISE.

    THINK!!!!

    THINK ROVE

    UNPRINCIPLED A**HOLES THAT ARE PLANNING TO STEAL OUR ELECTION AGAIN.  It is too close for comfort, and this was the fallback position.

    Well, now they have switched to PLAN B.

    •  Step away from the pipe! (none / 0)

      Ok, I think neocons are a bunch of lunatic crackpots just as much as the next rational reality-based guy, but come on...paranoia such as this is ridiculous and counterproductive to the overall effort to oust Bush.

      I think neocons are lunatics for their dangerous policy positions but I don't think they're going to start bombing American cities anytime soon.

      •  Says YOU! (none / 0)

        and who the hell are you and how the hell would YOU know what they would or would not do?  We're talking "SOCIOPATHS" here.

        Got that?

        You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

        by mattman on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 02:04:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, and they eat babies too. (none / 1)

          Ok, this would be the far-left wingnuts, counterparts to the far-right wingnuts.  This is why I'm a centrist -- both you extremist conspiracy nuts are of major concern.

          Get a grip, folks. This administration, though full of nutty religious wackos, does not eat babies, club baby seals for fun, nor conspire with space aliens to divide and conquer earth.

          That said, I don't expect the SS or CIA to start sabotaging our own cities anytime soon.

          Try to remember AL QAEDA is the enemy, ok? Not Saddam and not our own spooks.

          •  Do Tell Us (none / 0)

            what your credentials are dealing with sociopaths, psychopaths, malignant narcissists and general whackaloons like Smirky and his Band of Fruitloops?

            While they are far too whacked out and incompetent to do anything more complex then put our nation and the general world at risk, their policies might just as well hang out a sign that says:

            AL QUEDA FOLKS PLEASE TARGET HERE

            Or:

            GOT EXPLOSIVES?

            You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

            by mattman on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 10:10:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Woah. (none / 0)

      That's a little too paranoid for me in the early morning, no?

      Or at least just think of it this way:  would this have been the simplest way for them to get their hands on explosives?  No, of course not.  I'm sure you know that cache was not the only pack of explosives sitting around in the world.

      •  Perhaps It Would Be (none / 0)

        a good idea to remember that in this day of Smirky and the World Dominators and Peace Through War, that paranoia is no longer a disorder, it's a fucking survival skill.

        You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

        by mattman on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 10:14:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I sorta agree... (none / 0)

          there is some crazy shiate going on in the world.

          But paranoia is still paranoia.

          •  Respectfully, Please Think of It (none / 0)

            this way:  While you might be wondering how you look expressing something like this,  I might be wondering how to keep my sorry ass alive.

            I keep thinking about the Jews in Germany thinking nothing was going to happen because Germany was a bastion of culture and civilization.

            The paranoids tried to get out.

            To me this is Darwinian. In other words, a survival skill.

            You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

            by mattman on Thu Oct 28, 2004 at 11:40:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  MSNBC Just Ran This (none / 0)

    Working 3rd shift from home this week - MSNBC just ran this on "First Look"  I expect this story to have legs today.
  •  Early reporting (none / 0)

    CNN on Daybreak (5am Eastern) led with a brief mention of new violence in Iraq and then the NYT story - another brief mention, said they'd discuss it further in 15 min...

    MSNBC - didn't mention it until a few minutes in and then when they did it led with "the White House is investigating..." the NYT story making it sound like they're just learning about this but committed to getting to the bottom of it.  Christ.  Fuck them.

    Can't watch Fox.

    •  on CNN the 15 min tease follow up (none / 0)

      They hit the story and showed the text of a quote from Lockhart which indicates the Kerry people are going to be ALL over this.

      Paraphrasing:
      "The Bush administration must answer for this.  How the hell could this have possibly happened?"

      Lockhart's quote had the feel of "Are you fucking kidding me?"

      Apologies for typos in MSNBC post above

      •  thanks!!! (none / 0)


        please keep us night owls on the west coast informed on what you are seeing on cnn/msnbc... so far only 18 newspapers have picked this story up, most of them the weak reuters version.
        •  No problem (none / 0)

          I am actually all West Coasted up myself, just a night owl too.  

          MSNBC is pathetic.  They obviously know about the story since it's been on their website for a few hours (still no CNN, but CNN International has had it for hours).  They briefly referred to it a few minutes in.

          "Meanwhile, the Bush administration has reportedly opened an investigation into missing explosives..."  This is ridiculous spin.  They didn't even have it as their top two Iraq stories.

          Let me repeat that - the Iraqi police thing, the bomb near the Australian embassy are being reported higher than 760,000 pounds of missing explosives.  And when it is being reported it's like this vague story that hey, we better look into that because, you never know, that might present a problem later.

          This is outrageous.  They need a letter bombing campaign.

          •  well.. (none / 0)


            i dont think many people watch msnbc anyway.  

            whats cnn saying now?

            i think this will get quite a bit of play, because another event will happen with this today... namely, iaea reporting to security council.  just read news reports saying that this will be announced at the security council today.  so that will give additional legs to this.

  •  CNN's Got It Now (none / 0)

    along with a great quote by the Kerry camp calling it a "grave blunder."

    I expect to hear an outcry from senators from BOTH sides of the isle on this TODAY!

    God DAMN, an investigation immediately!

    You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can always be honest.

    by mattman on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 02:18:48 AM PST

  •  what are the chances? (none / 0)

    I bet you that Bush et al will try to recover from this by requesting an emergency address to the nation to discuss this issue.  what are the chances of something like this happening?  will kerry get equal time?

  •  surprising... (none / 0)


    CBS has no mention of this on their site.  abc has it as top story... but given that 60 minutes was so involved in this, you would expect cbs to at least mention it on their site?  maybe they are working on a major story before mentioning anything...
  •  Here We Go - it hits AP wire as the top story (none / 0)

    Lockhart quote below, new info from NYT:

    Top Stories - AP
    AP
    IAEA Says Tons of Iraq Explosives Missing

    4 minutes ago

    By WILLIAM J. KOLE, Associated Press Writer

    VIENNA, Austria - Several hundred tons of conventional explosives are missing from a former Iraqi military facility that once played a key role in Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s efforts to build a nuclear bomb, the U.N. nuclear agency confirmed Monday.

    International Atomic Energy Agency chief Mohamed ElBaradei will report the materials' disappearance to the U.N. Security Council later Monday, spokeswoman Melissa Fleming told The Associated Press.

    "On Oct. 10, the IAEA received a declaration from the Iraqi Ministry of Science and Technology informing us that approximately 350 tons of high explosive material had gone missing," Fleming said.

    The Iraqis told the agency the materials had been stolen and looted because of a lack of security at governmental installations, Fleming said.

    "We do not know what happened to the explosives or when they were looted," she told AP.

    Nearly 380 tons of powerful explosives that could be used to build large conventional bombs are missing from the former Al Qaqaa military installation, The New York Times reported Monday.

    The explosives included HMX and RDX, which can be used to demolish buildings but also produce warheads for missiles and detonate nuclear weaponry, the newspaper said. It said they disappeared after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq (news - web sites) last year.

    President Bush (news - web sites)'s national security adviser, Condoleeza Rice, was informed of the missing explosives in the past month, the report said. It said Iraq's interim government recently warned the United States and U.N. nuclear inspectors that the explosives had vanished.

    "Upon receiving the declaration on Oct. 10, we first took measures to authenticate it," Fleming said. "Then on Oct. 15, we informed the multinational forces through the U.S. government with the request for it to take any appropriate action in cooperation with Iraq's interim government."

    "Mr. ElBaradei wanted to give them some time to recover the explosives before reporting this loss to the Security Council, but since it's now out, ElBaradei plans to inform the Security Council today" in a letter to the council president, she said.

    In Washington, a senior adviser to presidential candidate John Kerry (news - web sites) said Bush must explain how the loss of the explosives could have happened.

    "Today, the Bush administration must answer for what may be the most grave and catastrophic mistake in a tragic series of blunders in Iraq. How did they fail to secure nearly 380 tons of known, deadly explosives despite clear warnings from the International Atomic Energy Agency to do so?" senior adviser Joe Lockhart said.

    "These explosives can be used to blow up airplanes, level buildings, attack our troops and detonate nuclear weapons. The Bush administration knew where this stockpile was, but took no action to secure the site," he added.

    Before the war, inspectors with the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency had kept tabs on the so-called "dual use" explosives because they could have been used to detonate a nuclear weapon.

    IAEA inspectors pulled out of Iraq just before the 2003 invasion and have not yet been able to return despite ElBaradei's repeated urging that the experts be allowed back in to finish their work.

    ElBaradei told the U.N. Security Council before the war that Iraq's nuclear program was in disarray and that there was no evidence to suggest it had revived efforts to build atomic weaponry.

    Al Qaqaa, a sprawling former military installation about 30 miles south of Baghdad, was placed under U.S. military control but repeatedly has been looted, raising troubling questions about whether the missing explosives have fallen into the hands of insurgents battling coalition forces.

    Saddam was known to have used the site to make conventional warheads, and IAEA inspectors dismantled parts of his nuclear program there before the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites). The experts also oversaw the destruction of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons.

    The nuclear agency pulled out of Iraq in 1998, and by the time it returned in 2002, it confirmed that 35 tons of HMX that had been placed under IAEA seal were missing. HMX and RDX are the key components in plastic explosives, which insurgents have widely used in a series of bloody car bombings in Iraq.

    ElBaradei told the United Nations (news - web sites) in February 2003 that Iraq had declared that "HMX previously under IAEA seal had been transferred for use in the production of industrial explosives, primarily to cement plants as a booster for explosives used in quarrying."

    "However, given the nature of the use of high explosives, it may well be that the IAEA will be unable to reach a final conclusion on the end use of this material," ElBaradei warned at the time.

    "A large quantity of these explosives were under IAEA seal because they do have a nuclear application," Fleming said Monday.

    The nuclear agency has no concrete evidence to suggest the seals were broken, Fleming said.

  •  Bush has eradicated the security of the world... (none / 0)

    ... with this blunder.

    At the rate of 1 terrorist attack a day, and using only 1 pound of this material, this 380 tons would last more than 2000 years.

    Bush has failed in making America safer.  He has failed in making the world safer.

  •  strange... (none / 1)


    the timing of this informations release is pretty strange... someone in the CIA let this out?
    •  someone who (none / 0)

      wants Chimp to lose, obviously, but he has plenty of enemies -- including people in the intelligence community, who must be acutely aware of how badly Bushco have fucked everything up.
      ... And aware that simply shooting him won't work, that someone must pound a wooden stake through the heart of his whole operation.  

      It took 8 years for my antidepressant meds to start working.

      by frankw9 on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 05:42:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  funny... (none / 0)


    its funny how the right view this.  lucianne.com describes the story as "Last minute attempted Bush hit non-starter story from the Times"

    non-starter?!?!

    more comments:

    "This is a major story and it will be a tough one for Bush.

    It's likely that some of the car bombs killing our troops each day are being made from these same 300+ tons of looted explosives.

    I'm telling you, the Kerry camp is planning to fashion this news into as much damage for Bush as possible. Those of you going off-track about the nuclear issue are missing the point -- our troops are being killed by insurgent terrorists who have tons and tons of these simple explosives. Al QaQaa was known and secured prior to the American invasion -- then unsecured while under American supervision. Hundreds of tons of explosives were whisked out and ended up in the hands of those attacking American troops. Think of how this piece of information sounds to a soldier's family. Not good. "

  •  CNN Leads, MSNBC features, FNC plays up UN Story (none / 0)

    Like this is a surprise but I love hearing Fox and Friends discussing the UN Puppies II with delight and glee and ignoring the lead story on their web page.
  •  NPR's Ann Garrels (none / 0)

    on Morning Edition this AM really ripping into BushCo for screwing this one up. She's normally much more level in her reporting, so the contrast ws quite noticeable - she seemed genuinly pissed off about this one. She also made the point - rarely heard in SCLM - that the Un weapons inspectors were really peeved at the Dulfur report's complete suppression of the fact that not only were the UN inspections working, but that they had no intention of stopping and would have continued to secure these stockpiles and monitor Iraqi weapons programs if we hadn't fucked it up by toppling the infrastructure.
  •  won't have significant impact (none / 1)

    Though the this "news" should have significant impact it won't the way it is getting reported now. You have to read deep into the NY Times article to get any sense that this was a festering sore caused by incompetence. And it isn't clear (in the article) that the facts were widely known inside the administration until recently.
    The CNN article is very vague.
    "The nuclear agency pulled out of Iraq in 1998, and by the time it returned in 2002, it confirmed that 35 tons of HMX that had been placed under IAEA seal were missing. HMX and RDX are the key components in plastic explosives, which insurgents have widely used in a series of bloody car bombings in Iraq."

    From this quote you could assume that the explosives were already gone when the wart started. And from quote you could assume that poor Condoleeza only recently came to know of the problem, when in fact she certainly must have "known" of the problem, though she had never been "informed" officially by the IAEA. And I would bet money she was central to the coverup of this news from day one.
    "U.S. President George W. Bush's national security adviser, Condoleeza Rice, was informed of the missing explosives in the past month,(emphasis added) the report said. It said Iraq's interim government recently warned the United States and U.N. nuclear inspectors that the explosives had vanished."

    The reality is that this event is a damning indictment of the policies of Bush Co. and RUmmy in Iraq. But it will be hard to convince any Bush supporters of this because they are so adept at burying their heads in the sand. And we need to be careful how this is played up or else even undecided voters may simply buy into the republican spin that this is a small thing getting played out of proportion by desperate Dems.
    The bottom line is that events such as this simply prove out that awful state of the union we are in. When even pointing out obvious mistakes can be spun into something sinister and "political" - making the messenger more despised than the message.
    Until it is plainly stated who knew what and when they knew it this will not have the impact it should. We need more facts, I hope Al-Baradi can put more details on the table at the UN today, but even then we know how hard it is for many Americans to hear the truth.

    •  doesn't get any clearer (none / 0)

      380 tons of Iraq explosives vanish


      Some 380 tons of explosives, powerful enough to detonate nuclear warheads, are missing from a former Iraqi military facility south of Baghdad that was supposed to be under U.S. military control, the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog says.

      frontpage, us.cnn.com.

  •  This may answer something (none / 0)

    Do you remember the answer from Bush when he was asked to identify three mistakes that he had made? He shuffled about and then muttered about he may have made some wrong appointments.

    Annoyingly, the media dwelt on the failure to answer rather than follow up the strange one that he gave.

    I wonder if this ticking time bomb was at the back of his mind? Who does he want to blame for this debacle? It certainly won't be himself.

    •  Condi! (none / 0)

      The news stories say that Rice has known for one month.  Did she tell Bush?  If not, he should fire her.  But can he publically say that he was not informed.  This looks very bad.

      There should be an ad that features footage of his saying in the debates that he made no mistakes with this news plastered over it.

      How can the news let this story drop!

  •  October Suprise thoughts (none / 0)

    I'm thinking the IAEA and Allawi pulled the October Suprise on Bush+Rove. And I'm glad.  

    The unguarded ammo dumps is an OLD story.

    This may be a first for an international organization.

    Freedom does not march. I saw an invasion. I see an occupation. I don't see a war. "Constant war is not a family value." Cindy Sheehan 8/22/05

    by ex republican on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 06:45:01 AM PST

  •  CBS wakes up (none / 0)

    They've got the AP story on the side--but at least it's above the fold of the front page.

    Wonder if it's too late for Sumner Redstone to pull back his endorsement of Shrub ...

    GOP=Grand Obstructionist Party

    by Christian Dem in NC on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 06:46:07 AM PST

  •  Kos - (none / 0)

    can you bump this to the top of your homepage again?  it's early monday morning and it's already getting buried.
  •  Al Qaqaa (none / 0)

    If it smells like KA KA....looks LIKE KA KA....how can it NOT be KA KA?

    LOL - ok someone had to do it!!

    Kerry/Edwards ~~ 2004  ~~ Ya...that's the ticket!

  •  Kerry Accuses Bush of Incompetence (none / 0)

    The gloves just came off.  Just call him Gagne.
    Yahoo Story

    Kerry Accuses Bush of Incompetence

    8 minutes ago  

    By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer

    ALAMOGORDO, N.M. - President Bush (news - web sites), presenting himself as the best candidate to keep America safe, was accused by John Kerry (news - web sites) on Monday of "unbelievable incompetence" in the disappearance of hundreds of tons of powerful explosives in Iraq (news - web sites).

    "Every step of the way, this administration has miscalculated," Kerry said in Dover, N.H. He spoke shortly before traveling to Philadelphia for a rally with former President Clinton (news - web sites), who was making his first political appearance since heart surgery nearly seven weeks ago.

    Kerry said the Bush administration had "miscalculated about how to go to war, miscalculated about the numbers of troops that we would need, miscalculated about sending young Americans to war without the armor they needed, without the Humvees they needed that were armored."

    "And the incredible incompetence of this president and this administration has put our troops at risk and put this country at greater risk than we ought to be," Kerry said.

    Running mate John Edwards (news - web sites), campaigning in Ohio, added, "After today, it's hard to imagine that even they'll continue believing things are going well."

    The International Atomic Energy Agency said about 350 tons of highly explosive material had disappeared in Iraq, apparently stolen because of a lack of security at governmental installations.

    The central argument of Bush's re-election campaign is that he can do a better job protecting America than Kerry, and polls show that voters trust Bush more on this issue.

    Bush, in an ABC interview broadcast Monday, was asked about the possibility of a terrorist attack on the United States before the election, a threat the administration has repeatedly raised. "We don't have actionable intelligence to say there's an attack, and of course if we did, we'd be moving heaven and earth to stop it," the president said.

    Asked in the interview if he has considered the fact that he could lose, Bush replied, "I'm not there yet."

    Bush and Kerry are focusing their efforts on fewer than a dozen states that remain highly competitive, with both camps making last-minute scheduling decisions to reflect realities on the ground.

    The president was to deliver a speech Monday in Greeley, Colo., to call attention to his handling of the war on terror. He was accompanied by former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani (news - web sites).

    The president was headed to Iowa afterward for events in Council Bluffs and Davenport.

    The new speech was part of a multi-pronged, final-stretch effort by Bush to hone the defining issues of the campaign and to find a way to break the neck-and-neck status of the race.

    Monday's focus on the war on terror includes a new television ad that closely tracks the president's remarks. Bush accuses Kerry of not having what it takes to prosecute the anti-terror war.

    Then on Tuesday, Bush plans an address on the economy. It's an area where Kerry believes he is stronger, but Bush will contrast what he says is the economy-boosting impact of his tax cuts with a charge, denied by Kerry, that the Massachusetts senator would raise taxes on all Americans if elected. That argument would come as Bush appeared at three rallies in Wisconsin and one back in Iowa.

    By Friday, Bush will shift to the topic of leadership qualities "in a very personal way, in a way he hasn't done before," including a recounting of how people he has met with have shaped his views of the war on terror and his presidency, said communications director Dan Bartlett.

    The campaign also plans its final ad, to be a rare 60 seconds long and released later in the week, intended to capture the president as likable and trustworthy by including "very emotional" footage of Bush talking in various settings, Bartlett said. That ad -- which Bartlett called "our closing pitch to undecided voters" -- would not mention Kerry.

    With only a few states left on both sides' target lists, a now-familiar coincidence of scheduling has Bush and Kerry spending the night in the same state, the president in La Crosse, Wis., and Kerry about 200 miles away in Green Bay. Bush was also coming close to crossing paths with Democratic vice presidential nominee John Edwards, who was stumping in Racine, Wis., and Dubuque, Iowa, on Monday.

    Republican-leaning Colorado, where Bush was starting his day, has moved in recent weeks from the fringes of the campaign to dead center -- and then perhaps back toward the sidelines.

    Bush won Colorado big in 2000, by 51 percent to Al Gore (news - web sites)'s 42 percent. But a weak economy, the state's growing Hispanic population and a competitive Senate race gave Kerry reason to give it another look, and he began last month targeting the state as one of a handful he hoped to steal from the Bush column.

    •  Reuters too (none / 0)

      Not only is Kerry attacking hard, the full force of it is getting through the news.

      Kerry Slams Bush for 'Great Blunder' in Iraq

      By Patricia Wilson

      DOVER, N.H. (Reuters) - Democratic challenger John Kerry (news - web sites) accused President Bush (news - web sites) on Monday of committing "one of the greatest blunders" of his administration in failing to secure tons of explosives in Iraq (news - web sites) and said the Republican incumbent did not deserve to be commander in chief.

      Eight days before the Nov. 2 election, a potentially damaging report in The New York Times said that almost 380 tons of explosives vanished from an Iraqi military installation amid widespread looting after the U.S.-led invasion.

      A spokeswoman for the United Nations (news - web sites) nuclear watchdog confirmed the explosives were missing and said International Atomic Energy Agency chief Mohamed ElBaradei would immediately report the matter to the U.N. Security Council.

      The Massachusetts senator seized on the news to assail Bush before a rally later in Philadelphia with former President Bill Clinton (news - web sites), who will be making his first appearance on the campaign trail since undergoing heart surgery seven weeks ago.

      "George W. Bush who talks tough -- talks tough -- and brags about making America safer, has once again failed to deliver," Kerry told supporters in Dover, New Hampshire. "After being warned about the danger of major stockpiles of explosives in Iraq, this president failed to guard those stockpiles."

      Kerry said terrorists could use the material "to kill our troops, our people, blow up airplanes and level buildings."

      "This is one of the great blunders of Iraq, one of the greatest blunders of this administration and the incredible incompetence of this president and this administration has put our troops at risk and this country at greater risk."

      "The unbelievable blindness, stubbornness, arrogance of this administration to do the basics has now allowed this president to once again fail the test of being commander in chief." The New York Times reported that the interim government of Iraq had told Washington and international inspectors that nearly 380 tons of conventional explosives were missing from al Qaqaa, a sensitive former military installation.

      The newspaper cited White House and Pentagon (news - web sites) officials -- as well as at least one Iraqi minister -- as acknowledging that the explosives vanished from the site shortly after the invasion in March 2003.

      Bush administration officials said the Iraq Survey Group, the CIA (news - web sites) task force that searched for unconventional weapons, has been ordered to investigate the disappearance of the explosives.

      Kerry has used a raft of recent bad news from Iraq to try to sway voters who might be concerned about changing commanders in chief in the midst of war that he could do a better job than Bush.

      When he appears later with a former commander in chief, Kerry will be looking for the charismatic Clinton -- one of the Democrats' most popular politicians -- to help boost turnout, especially among black Americans who have sometimes received the more-reserved Kerry only lukewarmly.

      Clinton, 58, has been out of the public eye recuperating from quadruple bypass surgery at his home in Chappaqua, New York.

      His appearance with Kerry is a marked change from the 2000 White House race when Vice President Al Gore (news - web sites) distanced himself from the scandal-plagued Clinton presidency.

      Republicans say Kerry will suffer by comparison alongside Clinton and that memories of the scandal over his affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky could help energize the Republican Party base

      •  Dover NH (none / 0)

        I watched this entire speech on NECN (New England Cable News).

        It was wonderful to say the least.  I especially thought he did a good job of explaining how serious this missing explosives issue is and how BushCo blundered so badly by not securing them during the invasion.

        Dover is a city of approximately 29,000 residents.  The crowd looked HUGE for a Monday morning.

  •  380 ton timeline (none / 0)

    Right now Barbara Starr is reporting on CNN that the Iraqi government notified the IAEA in Vienna on October 10.  What about the story that the US has been aware of the theft since April/May 2003?  Will the media follow that story?  Or let the Bush administration off the hook?  Is the media going to enable an ongoing coverup????????????
  •  but the ministry of oil is safe! (none / 0)

    phew!
  •  Rumsfeld quote, April 12, 2003 (none / 0)

    Sorry if this was posted in here already, lots to read through on this thread.

    April 12, 2003

    "Declaring that freedom is "untidy," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Friday the looting in Iraq was a result of "pent-up feelings" ...

    <clip>

    He also asserted the looting was not as bad as some television and newspaper reports have indicated...

    <clip>

    Looting, he added, was not uncommon for countries that experience significant social upheaval. "Stuff happens," Rumsfeld said."

    More:

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/04/11/sprj.irq.pentagon /

  •  Kerry's on it, Bushies mute (none / 0)

    Yahoo! News - Kerry Accuses Bush of Incompetence

    ALAMOGORDO, N.M. - President Bush (news - web sites), presenting himself as the best candidate to keep America safe, was accused by John Kerry (news - web sites) on Monday of "unbelievable incompetence" in the disappearance of hundreds of tons of powerful explosives in Iraq (news - web sites).

    AP Photo

    AFP
        Slideshow: Elections

    Latest Headlines:
    ·     New Yorker magazine breaks with tradition, endorses Kerry
    AFP - 14 minutes ago
    ·     Kerry Accuses Bush of Incompetence
    AP - 21 minutes ago
    ·     Recent Polls on the Presidential Race
    AP - 34 minutes ago
    All Election Coverage

    "Every step of the way, this administration has miscalculated," Kerry said in Dover, N.H. He spoke shortly before traveling to Philadelphia for a rally with former President Clinton (news - web sites), who was making his first political appearance since heart surgery nearly seven weeks ago.

    Kerry said the Bush administration had "miscalculated about how to go to war, miscalculated about the numbers of troops that we would need, miscalculated about sending young Americans to war without the armor they needed, without the Humvees they needed that were armored."

    "And the incredible incompetence of this president and this administration has put our troops at risk and put this country at greater risk than we ought to be," Kerry said.

    Running mate John Edwards (news - web sites), campaigning in Ohio, added, "After today, it's hard to imagine that even they'll continue believing things are going well."

    The International Atomic Energy Agency said about 350 tons of highly explosive material had disappeared in Iraq, apparently stolen because of a lack of security at governmental installations.

    The central argument of Bush's re-election campaign is that he can do a better job protecting America than Kerry, and polls show that voters trust Bush more on this issue. The Bush campaign dismissed Kerry's criticism of the missing explosives without responding to the allegations.

    To Libertarians: People who spent the last 8 years in a coma have not earned the right to be taken seriously.

    by lawnorder on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 08:31:16 AM PST

    •  Kerry's Campaign statement (none / 0)

      From Kerry-Edwards Online Forum

      Kerry Campaign: Bush's Failure to Secure Iraqi Explosives has Made the World Less Safe

      Contact: Chad Clanton or Phil Singer, 202-464-2800, both of Kerry-Edwards 2004

      WASHINGTON, Oct. 25 U.S. Newswire -- Today, the New York Times revealed that the Bush Administration failed to secure nearly 380 tons of high-grade explosives in Iraq shortly after the United States took control over the country, despite being informed of their exact location. The failure to secure the explosives has led to three major concerns:

      -- The weapons could end up or have already ended up in the hands of a terrorist group;

      -- The explosives might be used against our troops on the ground; and

      -- The explosives could be used to carry out a deadly attack against America or our allies.

      NEW REVELATION: Failure To Secure Iraqi Explosives May Mean that Powerful Explosives are in Hands of Terrorists

      Bush Administration Remained Silent About the Disappearance of Explosives: "The White House said President Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, was informed within the past month that the explosives were missing. It is unclear whether President Bush was informed. American officials have never publicly announced the disappearance, but beginning last week they answered questions about it posed by The New York Times and the CBS News program '60 Minutes.'" (NYT, 10/25/04)

      To Libertarians: People who spent the last 8 years in a coma have not earned the right to be taken seriously.

      by lawnorder on Mon Oct 25, 2004 at 09:06:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Putting 129 million lives in jeopardy? (none / 0)

    Taking what others have said one step further. At Lockerbie, one pound of this stuff killed 170 people. 760,000 pounds are missing.

    If all the missing explosives are deployed as "effectively" as at Lockerbie, the death toll would be over 129 million people.

    So I guess WMD have finally been found. And lost.

  •  Well now we know...... (none / 0)

    ....why Georgie let this slip:

    "Whether or not we can be ever fully safe is up -- you know, up in the air."

    -- President Bush

  •  600+ postings? Wow (none / 0)

    I dont think I've ever seen a thread this big.

    The rage is palpable.

    Keep hammering this point home ... I hope K/E does as well.

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