Emergency: Repugs attacking Online Debate Polls

Repugs are attacking these polls HARDCORE(especially CNN) and trying to overturn the Kerry advantages.  Please, if you are reading this, hit these polls ASAP.  If you see others in need of help, please add to list:

http://www.cnn.com

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/

http://www.foxnews.com/

http://www.msmagazine.com/debate2_poll.asp

Please recommend this diary as this is a well needed CALL to ACTION.  

•  Quick...

  We can't let all our hardwork last night slip by this afternoon.  Repugs are tryingto catch us off guard.  I bet the RNC is paying people to freep these polls - especially CNN.

  by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:47:11 PM PDT

  •  Do these polls, but understand ...

    We're not really indicating the true level of support for one candidate or the other, we are "voting" on our side's level of heartfelt support or organization. What would be interesting is discovering that freepers have actually hacked these polls (ip address spoofing, cookie manipulation).

    The Universe is a big place ... perhaps the biggest. -Kilgore Trout

    by fugitive on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:50:31 PM PDT

    •  Of Course

      But we can't leave the door open to the possibility of a shift in post-debate spin.

      I am going to recommend this diary; hopefully we can redirect a little attention to these polls.  Those who haven't yet voted, please do.  And those who have, if you are so inclined, try clearing your cookies / cache and voting again. Let's not lose any momentum!

      by taylormattd on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:55:10 PM PDT

      •  Recommended

        Everyone recommend this diary.

        by Lucian on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:01:25 PM PDT

    •  When we coordinate poll-stuffing

      it is just organized activism, but when they do it, it's "hacking"?

      Is it not possible to respect the people who, however misguided, misled and mistaken they may be, support the other guy?

      Is it not conceivable for them to use the same poll-lists that we do? Is it not possible that some freeper posted a link for their guys?

      Increasingly, I hear rank intolerance substituting for democratic activism around here.

      Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater here, folks.

      by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:31:09 PM PDT

      •  It's HACKING

        Someone right wingers are obviously running scripts.  Their vote total is going up impossibly fast.  We've been sampling it over the last few hours.

        To be fair, we need to write a script.

        by Winger on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:37:02 PM PDT

        •  "To be FAIR, we need to write a script?"

          Talk about ends justifying means.

          Remind me, what the difference is between us and them?

          by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:41:13 PM PDT

          •  ok

            Remind me, what the difference is between us and them?

            They win. People like you lose. That's life.

            by GoKeever on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:03:45 PM PDT

            •  So Clinton stole his elections?

              And every other Democrat ever elected?

              What you are essentially saying is that democracy doesn't work, that you don't trust the people to make the right choice, and that we should game the system because they do.

              Sounds just like "but MOM, Johnny did it too!" excuse little kids give.

              We are better than that. And we don't have to cheat to win.

              by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:16:26 PM PDT

              •  actually

                If the system is broken, you can't fix it without 'breaking' its rules.

                Winners fix the system; losers play along.

                Total losers break the wrong rules. =)

                by GoKeever on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:41:42 PM PDT

                •  Let's keep the discussion honest

                  If the system is broken, you can't fix it without 'breaking' its rules.

                  We're not talking about fixing a system, we're talking about joining the cheaters. I have not defended "The System", I have merely tried to point out that the very thing that makes us better is that we believe in the rule of law, and in democracy itself.

                  Let's not deflect attention on orthogonal issues. The discussion here was not about fixing a bad system, it was about joining the corrupters.

                  by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:57:12 PM PDT

                  •  Dude

                    We're talking about FIGHTING the cheaters on their own terms.  Why reward their bad behavior by letting them get away with it?

                    by AdmiralNaismith on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:06:03 PM PDT

                    •  I didn't argue that point

                      I merely raised objections to the ends-justify-the means crowd, and to using "the system is broken" as a justification for doing the wrong thing.

                      I also noted that there is a strong strain of elitist disdain for democracy running through this conversation, from the assumption that people could not possibly sincerely be activists on the Right without being paid to vote, to saying that if you are honest and tell the truth, you are a "big loser".

                      I don't believe that you fight "cheaters" by cheating. Just my opinion.

                      by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:22:15 PM PDT

                  •  huh?

                    ...I have merely tried to point out that the very thing that makes us better...

                    And I have merely pointed out the answer to the question that you initially asked. Beyond that, feel free to make whatever personal value-judgments work best for you!

                    by GoKeever on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 10:15:59 PM PDT

                  •  btw

                    As an idle aside, what makes us 'better' is the reason why we want to win and what we will do with the win once we have it.

                    PS. Losers are "losers" by definition. No one cares if they're 'better' than anything, except perhaps other losers, because they're losers.

                    by GoKeever on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 10:29:05 PM PDT

              •  Get a Grip

                This ain't an "election," honey. It's an online poll, the likes of which the brownshirts have beenn manipulating for years. They have absolutely no integrity whatsoever, except the entities that sponsor them like to announce the results (when they conform to their right-wing inclinations) in a very loud voice. So it's nice when they're skewed pointedly to our side for a change.

                Politics is not beanbag, dearie. Now get with the program or get the fuck out.

                by dave on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:51:52 PM PDT

                •  troll warning.

                  "honey" "dearie" "get with the program or get the fuck out".

                  We have ourselves a bona fide troll. Welcome to dailykos, chump.

                  by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:54:07 PM PDT

                  •  "dave" - troll on a rating rampage

                    rating down everything this "honey/dearie" writes, regardless of content.

                    Careful, make sure you all "get with the program or get the fuck out".

                    :-)

                    by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:54:29 PM PDT

                    •  seems "drduck" is his alter ego n/t

                      by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 10:02:52 PM PDT

                      •  yup, total of 4 comments for "drduck"

                        This is fun :-)

                        by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 10:04:14 PM PDT

                    •  6 of dave's 12 comments "hidden"

                      Seems he's been trolling around a lot. Seems he's an equal opportunity offender. Or is it just "honey's" and "dearie's" he's after.

                      Damn dailykossites, can't seem to just "get with the program of get the fuck out".

                      Democracy. What a pain.

                      :-)

                      by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 10:07:48 PM PDT

          •  The difference between us and them.

            We're right. They're wrong.

            And we didn't start it.  Should we defend ourselves, or should we let them unfairly clobber us?  

            by AdmiralNaismith on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:04:00 PM PDT

            •  False dichotomy

              You are using the same logic as Bush uses when he says, "aren't we better off with Saddam out of power"?

              Just as the argument about Iraq is not about that, but about HOW we should have gone about dealing with Saddam Hussein, similarly the argument here is not about "letting them unfairly clobber us", it is about HOW we deal with the problem.

              There are those that believe that the ends justify the means. I happen not to share that view, and I believe that is the essence of an enlightened progressive worldview.

              YMMV. But don't oversimplify the discussion and say that it's either no holds barred or throw up your hands and surrender.

              It is possible to win in a democracy by being right, not just nastier.

              by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:25:43 PM PDT

              •  i respect your view galiel

                in the same way i really admire the pacifist views of the Quakers. but i don't subscribe to either. i'm a liberal, not a pacifist.
                 sometimes the ends do justify the means. will lyndon b. johnson be remembered for the voting rights act, the great society, and appointing the first black supreme court justice

                or for stuffing ballot boxes in texas?

                the former will dominate his legacy.

                and these online polls and are small ends and means indeed. a footnote to a footnote to an addendum in the appendix.

                write the program and cast the votes.

                by maskling11 on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 01:53:42 AM PDT

                •  Thank you

                  Now, if everyone would just look at your example of choosing to discuss substance rather than attacking style or person, we'd actually get somewhere in this place instead of churning in place fueled by antagonism and prejudice.

                  While you and I differ on this point, I greatly respect your choice to engage the substance.

                  by galiel on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 12:47:38 PM PDT

            •  Troll!

              And I don't holler "troll" lightly. But the "we're right, they're wrong" argument is utter horsehit, and is obviously not coming from anyone on our team.

              This is the kind of "argument" we'd hear from the Bush Administration: "when we blow up buildings full of people we're good, and when they blow up buildings full of people they're evil!"

              Really, I'm starting to think these guys are provacateurs, from Freeperville, or from the FBI or some such. Coordinating attacks against online polls is not only immoral, it's illegal. Whoever starts writing scripts is flirting with PATRIOT ACT prosecutions... all a website has to do is prove $5k of damages, and off you go to Guantanamo, "terrorist". I'm serious. Cut this shit out.

              Vote the online polls. Get friends to vote them... it gets them involved and lets them feel like they're doing something. Don't fuck with cookies, and definitely do not turn into skript kiddiez.

              Be smart. Provoke the Freepers into using scripts to attack websites... then notify the web sites and get the Freepers prosecuted for cybercrime.

              by goatchowder on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 05:16:49 AM PDT

          •  Ends do justify means.

            no debate.

            by Cheez Whiz on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 10:14:59 PM PDT

            •  "no debate"

              LOL. Thank you for proving the bankruptcy of your own argument.

              "No debate". LOL.

              by galiel on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 12:54:37 AM PDT

  •  100,000 votes for GWB in the last hour and a half

    The TOTAL is 1.1 million.  So bogus.  Like all those people just got up and reviewed tivo or something.

    by mole333 on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:11:28 PM PDT

    •  Has anyone checked

      To see if the freepers and LGF and others have posted notices to their folks to vote on these polls, just like the Dems did yesterday?

      Before we assume a hack, should we at least do our homework?

      It is quite possible that they have organized just like we did. Surely all the polls showing 80% win for Kerry yesterday were not reflective of the general population.

      And don't forget that these polls don't really mean anything, and I've yet to see a single mainstream media outlet cite its internet poll in an article about public sentiment.

      by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:47:38 PM PDT

  •  CNN you can vote limitless times; Fox and

    MSNBC you can vote only once (at least that's what I'm told from my computer).  Ms. has been HEAVILY freeped and needs a lot of work.  Since you can vote over and over on CNN, that's something to give consideration.

    by concernedamerican on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:12:19 PM PDT

  •  I am guessing we

    are competing with fleets of zombie computers switching from their normal day job of sending out viagra, penis enlargement, and porn spam to poll freeping.  

    Virus and worm authors for Bush?  More likely Republicans are paying the controllers of zombie computers to freep the polls.  I bet that guy the Daily Show interviewed a while back would do it.  What was his email again?  

    If this is the case, it is unlikely that they have written programs to go after smaller newspaper polls.  Those should track traditional internet freeping activity.  

    by smilodon on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:16:08 PM PDT

    •  don't you think if the hacker theory were true

      that they couldn't beat us on debate night?  We wasted em in every poll.  

      CNN started a new poll.  Debate night we ruled its like 84 to 14.  New poll is at least competetive something like 60-40.  for a couple million votes that aint bad.  and we wouldn't be that close if we didn't have our legions noticing that there is a new poll.

      I'm not worried about this new one.  The damage to Bush has been done.  All we have to hope for is that all of our supporters actually take the time to vote on Nov 2.  If that happens everything will be groovy.

      After the 3rd debate we will once again outfreep the freepers and rule the night.  Till then lets just relax, plot, and discuss.

      good diary.  good comments.

      by thebloviator on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 03:32:53 AM PDT

      •  plotting

        I could care less about online polls, but. . .

        The poll in question started right after the debate and the numbers went from 84/14 to 40/60 on day 2.

        The plots of votes/time show a very smooth curve for kerry over two days (peak rate was right after the debate) and a wierd curve for bush with a few hours on day 2 in which the votes went from a background of 50 votes/minute to nearly 1000 votes/minute and then relatively quickly back to the background level.  When this diary got recomended Kerry barely got a 10% bump.  There may be a lot of freepers but I don't think they are that tightly controlled.

        Maybe someone was playing around.  Maybe someone was doing a demonstration.  Yes they could have been less obvious by hacking immediately after the debate.  

        We could easily lose to the hackers on the online poll on Wed.  I just hope they're not working on the real voting machines also.  

        by smilodon on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 09:14:49 AM PDT

  •  I don't know if we should bother

    there was more than 1,000,000 votes at that poll.  There's obviously something fishy going on.

    by Unstable Isotope on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:29:15 PM PDT

  •  Why assume they are paying people

    They have their partisan activists just as we have ours. Has anyone paid YOU to go through the poll lists?

    Let's keep some perspective and not confuse the Bush Administration with the Americans who, for whatever reason--ignorance, confusion, propaganda, or genuine radical conservatism--support the GOP with the kind of fervor we support the Democrats.

    Let's not lose all sense of perspective.

    by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:33:40 PM PDT

    •  Perspective

      Watching "Unprecedented" with the "protesters" in the hallway trying to block the Miami-Dade recount in 2000 who were actually all paid junior staffers of GOP Members of Congress is a reminder to always be suspicous of the evolving situation. Your perspective may be different from the people who smell a rat in this case, but it doesn't mean they are lacking it. Assuming the extremely rapid movement of the poll is entirely due to well-meaning people may be just as much of a stretch as saying Republican operatives are doing it. We have no way of knowing, and being optimistic about the intentions of the right has served us poorly.

      by MattK D1 on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:59:43 PM PDT

      •  As long as

        We don't lump in everyone who is voting for Bush as being part of the zealous operatives.

        That's all. Since I've been talking about the electronic voting potential for mischief and Nader's financing by the GOP, I'm hardly unaware of the ends-vs-means mentality of the radical Machiavellians on the Right.

        I just want to make sure we don't become their mirror image.

        by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:14:10 PM PDT

•  My problem

  for the past several weeks, this is the message I receive when I try to vote in CNN polls:

  Not Found
  The requested object does not exist on this server. The link you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been instructed not to let you have it.

  by Maryscott OConnor on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:50:29 PM PDT

  •  XP Service Pack 2 and other issues

    I've had problems with sites using MSIE on a system with all of the upgrades. Try shifting to using Firefox (open source browser at www.mozilla.org). It's got a very small footprint, doesn't interfere with much of anything else, and is overall an outstanding clean replacement for MSIE. I haven't had any problems using Firefox on the CNN and other polls.

    The Universe is a big place ... perhaps the biggest. -Kilgore Trout

    by fugitive on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:53:05 PM PDT

•  I just voted again

  Multiple times (I have multiple computers.)

  Let's battle those green eyeshades!
  

  by Imp of the Perverse on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:50:37 PM PDT

•  omg

  put this on a recomended diary!!!it is now 51/57 kerry. those rebugs are trending to overtake kerry.

  by terrond on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:51:39 PM PDT

•  i mean 51/47 kerry now!!!

  by terrond on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:52:13 PM PDT

  •  Hackers

    They are totally hacking.  There cant' be any other way to shift a lead of tens of thousands of votes within minutes, which is what has happened today.

    by taylormattd on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:58:33 PM PDT

    •  alert CNN

      email CNN and alert them they may have been hacked, and explain with good evidence and language.

      by Lucian on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:01:37 PM PDT

•  Hurry Up!

  They are attacking CNN hardcore - we need to attack fast!

  by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:53:49 PM PDT

•  Swinging

  hit em all..keep it going..hit the list last nite afterthe debate.

  by philinmaine on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:56:24 PM PDT

•  Ms. Magazine shows ...

  ...55% Bush to 45% Kerry! It's a small, relatively unimportant poll, folks, but let's not let the freepers steal it.

  by Meteor Blades on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:56:33 PM PDT

  •  Results of Ms. poll SO much more absurd...

    ...than even CNN. No one could possibly believe them, but let's turn it around and quick!

    by segmentis on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:40:20 PM PDT

    •  Ms poll

      How stupid are these people - as though freepers would even be ON a Ms site. Couldn't they have at least chosen a plausible site?

      by anotherCt Dem on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:19:13 PM PDT

      •  Not stupid, if a big % of the undecided vote

        is as purported- single female- then one can understand why Ms. Magazine might be freeped.

        Ms. Magazine may be one source for the single undecided female looking for information on candidate positions on issues important to them.

         

        by maggiemae on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:03:56 PM PDT

•  Yes, recommend this diary

  I see this as simply countering the right wing spin. I haven't heard much about how overwhelmingly such online polls had Edwards creaming Cheney, and the same for Prez Debate I and II with Kerry "winning" by huge margins. However, I guarantee that if the opposition successfully turns these polls that the SCLM would report something like "online polls indicate overwhelming support for the administration following these debates."

  Contribute by paying attention and addressing these polls. When you go to work Monday, make sure to vote again from your work IP addresses.

  The Universe is a big place ... perhaps the biggest. -Kilgore Trout

  by fugitive on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:56:53 PM PDT

  •  Has the SCLM

    reported that the polls overwhelmingly showed Kerry winning when they did?

    It is one thing to legitimately vote. It is fine to provide information such as lists of where the polls are.

    But to deliberately game the system, cheating so that "our" side wins, we become just like the folks we so self-righteously condemn in this very blog.

    Whatever happened to the difference between those who would justify any means with righteous ends and those who consider just means an end unto themselves?

    There is more between the Right and the Left than just their choice of mascot. We're better than this.

    Genuine activism and grass-roots mobilization is great. Lying, cheating, stealing and winning at all costs is not.

    by galiel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:44:51 PM PDT

    •  It's no different than the sign shuffle

      You know where, behind the current talking head, there are people each trying to get their respective candidate's sign to the front.

      These polls are NOT real, only perception.  Thus we here at dKos, and at DU, try to hit them early and often, likewise the Freepers do the same, and it's a game of escalation.

      Scripting the results is just another level, so calm down.

      Ref: 1
      P.S. I am not "dave".  Don't know 'im, never really noticed him one way or another before this.  And I actually had 8 comments before this one.  Your declaration of dave's trollishness, for his talking down of your hysterical posts, as well as the content of those very same hysterical posts, is why you've gotten the ratings I've given you, nothing more.

      by drduck on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 10:50:30 PM PDT

•  Hurry!!!!!!!!!!!

  We are LOSING CNN FAST!

  I even would venture to suggest that the lovely DemfromCT post a call to action front and center.

  by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:03:52 PM PDT

•  look

  this has to be some hacking going. how can u make up thousands of votes in a few hours guys. if this trend continues, bush will overtake kerry in a few minutes.  please vote kerry!!!

  by terrond on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:06:25 PM PDT

•  MSNBC

  63 K 47 B

  Faux
  48 K 54 B (no surprise there)

  CNN
  50 K 48 B

  Jump on CNN and Faux...lets piss in their conrflakes.  (apparently their mommies got them up after their afternoon nappy-wappies and let them use the computer while daddy was out playing golf)

  by TheGryphon on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:08:07 PM PDT

•  its 49/49 now

  get on recommeded diary now!!!

  by terrond on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:09:11 PM PDT

  •  Has anyone been capturing screenshots of this?

    Seems to me that the argument of hacking could be fairly well documented...
    

    by hubbubba on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:12:14 PM PDT

•  oh no

  CNN now is 49% to 49%

  by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:09:22 PM PDT

•  I suspect it is a fraud by CNN.

  by pinocio on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:16:37 PM PDT

•  cnn

  about 100000 votes were added to the cnn poll in the space of about an hour.  A Bush supporter is using some kind of script to hack the poll.

  by DaveOinSF on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:18:37 PM PDT

  •  document it, set it up for a case of fraud,

    your options would be to either expose CNN of fruad, or convince CNN they have a hacker problem and to get better security, and to stop with the online polls for a while.

    by Lucian on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:06:21 PM PDT

•  if necessary hack back

  by ira on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:21:19 PM PDT

  •  no!

    do not hack back!  not only is it wrong, it has the potential to backfire against KE.

    instead, EXPOSE  the hacking.  will make BC folks look like losers that have to cheat for a win. (think of the 11/2 implications)

    by selise on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:35:17 PM PDT

    •  Yes!

      By the time we expose the rethugs (which won't happen), they will have about a gazillion impressions already from people visiting the site and seeing Bush ahead.

      So sad we were ahead last night in this poll and now complacency shoots us in the back.

      by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:40:35 PM PDT

    •  Do not hack

      Hacking is not what you want to do, let Bush and his team look like the dishonest folks. You do NOT need a hacking scandal, it would ruin the blog community.

      by Lucian on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:07:04 PM PDT

•  how is this possible

  i can a gop hack do this.  100,000 in a hour!!??fishy crap goin on with cnn.

  by terrond on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:22:02 PM PDT

•  Email everyone at cnn ASAP

  [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], RayD'[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], SoledadO'[e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]

  by machadez on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:23:39 PM PDT

  •  Didn't CNN Replace their VP Poll?

    The following day when Edwards was clearly winning by a landslide on the online poll?

    So if there's clear sign of outrageous massive voting coming on from a machine right now--wouldn't it make sense for CNN to do the same thing?  Or is there some type of double standard going on?

    by norm on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:51:00 PM PDT

    •  CNN ...

      ..our CNN? Double standards? NAHHHHHHHH!!!

      by machadez on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:07:04 PM PDT

•  Recommend

  Recommend!

  Recommend!

  Or else all our hard work last night will go wdown the drain!!!!!

  The Repugs are taking advantage of a slow afternoon.  CNN is the top news website.  This is the MOST important online poll.

  by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:26:27 PM PDT

•  Someone's got a massive script attack

  In about 10 minutes,
  14,888 Bush votes were recorded vs. 2,231 Kerry votes, despite the existence of this diary.

  Cheating Republicans.

  by jfern on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:40:03 PM PDT

  •  asdf

    86.35% of new votes were for Bush
    12.94% were for Kerry

    by jfern on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:42:36 PM PDT

    •  Wouldn't it now be best to show these results...

      ...and point to the obvious hack and then say something like -- Repugs are consistent about at least one thing; dishonest behavior.

      by understandinglife on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:05:28 PM PDT

  •  same thing is happening on MSNBC

    we're just not seeing the results as quickly because of the amount of votes.  looks like they're getting around 1000 new votes every minute or so.  i do not believe that this is reasonable given that it's midafternoon on a saturday....

    by Hounds on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:12:08 PM PDT

•  guys

  sorry to say if there is some massive hacking going on by repug a-holes, there is almost no way to counteract the reult unless we hack.  no voting in the world looks like it will save us this time. it is rigged.

  by terrond on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:40:59 PM PDT

  •  If its a hack attack

    and you prove it in public, people won't care what the hacked polls said.

    by Lucian on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:10:13 PM PDT

•  Well

  Frankly, IMO, I respect what you guys are doing, and even went and voted, but the online poll spin is pretty much over.  But keep it up, just in case.

  Obviously hacking, the day after is when hudreds of thousands voted ?  Gammon.

  by Armando on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:44:25 PM PDT

•  Can I ask a question

  I don't mean this the wrong way, but why do we care about on-line polls?  Does anyone take them seriously?  Do you believe that it influences votes and/or coverage?

  I don't watch cable news anymore -- do they actually report the results on TV as if they matter?
  

  by dcg on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:54:24 PM PDT

  •  Complacency = Losing

    You should care because it's a well-known documented phenomenon called "impressions."

    All you need is someone who was wondering to themselves what others thought about the debate -and then they look at the poll and say "oh, I guess more people were enthused by Bush."

    You can write this off, just like many of us did with the Swift Boats in August.  Look where complacency got us then.  We knew the truth, but others did not.  It is the same for these polls.

    As Clinton said, "when they attack you, you attack them back ten times harder."

    Complacency will kill us.

    by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:03:54 PM PDT

    •  Why are you being such a jerk?

      I think you must have misunderstood my question.  Where did I suggest complacency?

      All I did was ask whether these things matter -- not exactly the same as saying turn the other cheek to Swift Boat attacks.

      Those below chose to answer the question about the value of on-line polls as it was asked.  You chose to answer my question (in a snippy way) in the first sentence, but then you set up some straw man to knock down, replying as I was suggesting not responding to Republican attacks.

      Seriously man, that was just a rude response.

      by dcg on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:06:16 PM PDT

      •  Huh?

        You can perceive what I wrote as rude, but it's my answer to your question and that's that.  

        If you are going to take statements like this as some sort of personal rude attack, then that's your choice and you need to deal with it.  Your perception is not the reality of the response.

        I stand by comments 100%.
         

        by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:14:05 PM PDT

        •  I guess it was the non-sequiter that confused me

          What does "when they attack you, attack them back" have to do with a question of whether on-line polls influence coverage or get reported?

          I read that non-sequiter to mean that you thought I was being soft on Republican attacks. I suppose not, but I don't know what it had to do with my question.
          

          by dcg on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:34:00 PM PDT

      •  Chill

        Have a 4. You can't read tone of voice in responses. Response to your post was (as I read it) neutral and explanatory. Get a thicker skin and relax. We don't think you're an idiot. Your response is honest, but, methinks, misplaced.

        Key: impressions matter. The polls are rubbish.

        The Universe is a big place ... perhaps the biggest. -Kilgore Trout

        by fugitive on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:59:41 PM PDT

      •  spin

        The Gallup instapoll after the 1st debate gave the victory to Kerry by about 16 points - now thats a huge margin, but a couple weeks later when the same question was asked the gap jumped to about 36 points. People didn't sit around and rewatch the debate and think "wow, I was wrong the first time, Kerry must have won." They listened to everyone telling them Kerry won and they believed that. The fact of the matter is that the spin is more important than the actual performance.

        People decide who won based on what CNN/Fox/MSNBC and everyone else tell them.

        Furthermore, it takes time for the media to come to a decision about who won, they look at the polling data (real and online) they talk to a small number of undecideds, they look at the accuracy of the candidates statements, they watch SNL and like everyone else, their beliefs are effected by those memes.

        So why are online polls important? Because we can't effect how Larry King thinks or whether Pataki cuts off Bob Kerrey, or what SNL has to say. This is one bit of spin that we can actually effect. We can actually show the media that there are hundreds of thousands of people willing to say Kerry won. But if the other side gets more votes in these stupid online polls, than thats one more piece of evidence they can use to buttress their claim.

        by Gabriel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:01:05 PM PDT

        •  Apples and oranges

          The online instapoll is quite different from an on-line poll. It's (supposed to be) scientific.

          I know that Gallup and other scientific polls get reported and influence what gets covered.  However, because I can't watch CNN or MSNBC anymore, I was just wondering whether they give as much or any credence to on-line polls.

          I guess the answer from you is that they do report the results of on-line polls and they do let on-line polls influence their perceptions as much as real ones, which is all I really wanted to know.

          by dcg on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:36:49 PM PDT

  •  It's irresponsible for them to even have them

    Take our poll! Who do you think won! Vote now!

    And oh, by the way, the results are unscientific.

    Kerry didn't win 80-19 or whatever some online polls showed after the first debate. And Bush lost again last night, although he gave a better performance than the first time. Ethical journalists with reputable news organizations should insist that these misleading "polls" be done away with.

    by MeanBoneII on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:06:34 PM PDT

    •  I Couldn't Agree More

      Once this fervor has settled down, maybe we can start a calm discussion about how to address this silly, self-selecting nonsense that journalists have the temerity to call a poll.

      by Carneades on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 11:02:04 PM PDT

  •  Yes

    They do mention these stupid polls on the air.  You are correct that it is likely not that big of a deal, and it may not receive much coverage, but every little bit goes toward shaping the spin as a whole. If Kerry "wins" all of the online polls, that gets mentioned occasionally and it makes it more difficult to label the debate as a draw or a Bush victory. A Kerry "win" also pushes the cable and network talking heads into repeating themes and talking points that are, if inane, nevertheless anti-Bush.

    by taylormattd on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:09:25 PM PDT

    •  Thank you

      I'm glad you understood my question as being what it was and not a suggestion that we don't respond to attacks.
      

      by dcg on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:07:19 PM PDT

•  Greg: Thank you for monitoring

  this situation and sending us this alert.  And thank you so very, very much for respecting the time of your fellows by having the courtesy to only post hyperlinks which actually have polls at the end of them.....unlike others who @(&%&$#(#&^%%&#(#)(&^$()$#).

  by NorCalJim on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:10:01 PM PDT

•  Freeper Scripts

  The way the freepers are doing this is by creating scripts that submit votes to these polls, pretending to be a normal web browser (not at all hard), then throw away the "this machine has voted" cookie after telling the server on the other end they've accepted it. This lets them vote multiple times. Even with a 30-second delay between votes from the same machine to look legit and avoid triggering anti-scripting measures, this can create the appearance of a massive swing.

  Simply put, there's not much that can be done about it. Like the disclaimers say - these polls are unscientific and very vulnerable to exactly this kind of attack. Stop freaking out about it. There really isn't much that can be done. The only real choice is to alert the news organization in question to a possible script attack on their online polls and hope they care enough about credibility to do something about it.

  For what its worth, this is what's usually referred to as "freeping". Because freepers, scumbags that they are, are desperate to win these polls at any cost to "prove" that they're right and defeat the "liberal media". So they write scripts to vote and vote and vote again until they get what they want.

  by RHunter on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:35:02 PM PDT

  •  Just great...

    By now we all know what is going on, but it doesn't appear any of us are willing to resort to their tactics (even though I know many of us could create the scripts).

    So, we lose once agin.

    Wonderful...

    You can write CNN, but it ain't going to do a thing:

    http://www.cnn.com/feedback/confirmation/generic.html

    by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:46:06 PM PDT

    •  so then write the stupid script and hack back

      stop whining about this irrelevent poll.  If you do actually care so much about it, then write the damn script, but don't get all upset with the community that noone is willing to resort to shadiness for the sake of dumb online poll.  IT DOESN'T MATTER.  

      by contrapunktus on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 10:29:16 PM PDT

      •  Simmer down tiger

        Anything can be labeled IRRELEVANT, but it still leaves an IMPRESSION.  If you don't like what I'm saying, you just need to move the F- on.  I don't put up with stupid shit.

        I suggest you learn about the power of PR and how simple elements like online polls can impact opinion.  

        I didn't ask for your comment - and while I deem it IRRELEVANT (just like you do with these polls), it still leaves a negative IMPRESSION.

        Get it?  Got it? Good.

        by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 11:38:58 PM PDT

        •  who needs to simmer down?

          you're the one bugging out, so far as I can tell.

          by contrapunktus on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 05:45:50 AM PDT

      •  I agree about the whining

        We need to stop whining about this, agreed.

        We should not hack back. Don't bother with scripts. Reason is that it's a trap: there's a USA-PATRIOT Act prosecution waiting... all the site has to do is prove $5k of damage caused. I'm dead serious. You will end up behind bars.

        Let's "move on". I need to call Sinclair Broadcasting, first of all, and complain about their running a Kerry-bashing special in primetime... then get people out to see "Going Upriver", and there's a singalong benefit tomorrow for moveon.org, get on Amazon and order a few copies of F/911 to send to my brothers-in-law... lots to do!

        by goatchowder on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 05:59:46 AM PDT

        •  i just watched going upriver

          it was good...  some amazing footage in there, i thought.

          This diary is so lame.  What a waste of energy.  If people want to help our guy win, there are MUCH more effective ways to use our time than flipping out over online polls.

          what a diversion.

          by contrapunktus on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 06:03:37 AM PDT

  •  Impressions, Impressions, Impressions!!!!!!!!

    Click on the bleeding thing and vote!!! Don't let the Repugs beat you in anything except evil.

    by ManIstheMeasure on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:54:03 PM PDT

    •  you had me at 'anything but evil'

      by thebloviator on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 03:35:02 AM PDT

•  Anybody else having trouble going to CNN.com?

  I'm wondering if the freepers' scripting is crashing their servers.

  by MeanBoneII on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:42:53 PM PDT

•  Voting multiple times

  On most of these polls, you can vote multiple times if you clear cookies from your browser (in the options). You can also write a script that votes for you automatically -- which technically isn't hacking, just vote manipulation.

  This just further proves that these polls are worthless.  However, it directs traffic to the poll's sites, so I can't see them going away anytime soon.

  by concernedcanuck on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:02:11 PM PDT

  •  You can use this tool to automatically clear your

    cookies and then auto revote. It will record your actions on screen and then set the number of times to 2000 or whatever.  Very simple to use.

    by bradnickel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:14:41 PM PDT

    •  Ooops - link

      http://www.geocities.com/win_macro/

      by bradnickel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:16:44 PM PDT

    •  Also, probably a waste of time.

      They can also block you via IP.

      by bradnickel on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:27:00 PM PDT

•  Bush 64% on Ms.Mag Poll?

  forget wood...got FREEP?

  by jillian on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:29:16 PM PDT

  •  Looks Like Ms. Magazine's Poll Crashed

    . . . probably due to the outrageous hacking.  Error message now appears.  Meanwhile, Democratic Underground have a story from CNN this morning that they actually reset the CNN poll once already, because of what seemed to be in their eyes too much in favor of Kerry.  So why don't they reset it again when it's so obvious they're being hacked now, likely from a computer program?

    http://tinyurl.com/42ts3

    by norm on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:46:52 PM PDT

•  Here's one in Louisiana

  which WILL GO FOR KERRY.  Reps heard about this on LouisianaDemocrat yahoo group and started hitting it about an hour ago.  It's in Lafayette, home of the Ragin' Cajuns.http://www.theadvertiser.com/polls/html/492D2C7C-8ECE-4508-B3E6-659A016B896E.shtml

  by blakescampaign on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 06:51:00 PM PDT

•  These ARE important because of perception

  Do we want people in somewhat conservative Louisiana to wake up and read that Bush won 65% to 35%?  No, because it colors their perception.  Here's a New Orleans one that REALLY needs some hits.http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/questionoftheday/index.html
  Please respond.  Louisiana voted for Clinton twice before going Bush by 8% in low turnout.  By god we're going for Kerry this year and we want everyone to start getting used to it now.  It will help bring the progressives out on Nov 2.

  by blakescampaign on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:02:34 PM PDT

  •  From N.O.

    Go Tisa!  Go Tisa! Go Tisa!

    by Cory on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:16:15 PM PDT

•  oh no

  So that everyone knows the tone of this next comment, imagine Shirley Maclaine in Term of Endearment when her daughter was in the hospital and needed a painkiller shot.  She exclaimed to the nurses, "GIVE HER THE SHOT!!!!"

  Well, using the same tone,  I say:

  "WRITE THE SCRIPT AND FREEP THE POLLS!"

  LOL

  by GregNYC on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:07:37 PM PDT

•  asdf

  i just, in curiosity, clicked multiple times with different browsers on the same comp, and the results total didn't change at all.

  is the totalling delayed, or did they just get to a number they liked and leave it there?
  

  by garth on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:20:54 PM PDT

  •  Bush is up to 57% now.

    by lightarrow on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:22:29 PM PDT

  •  mine went backwards

    If you click more than once on that script the total goes backwards for Kerry.

    by chipoliwog on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 09:53:59 AM PDT

•  Use Netscape Navigator

  Use Netscape Navigator if you have it as well as Internet Explorer. Clear your cookies and vote at least 10 times on each browser.

  by chicagoprogressive on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:23:09 PM PDT

•  Perception

  A lot of people missed the debate. They are now possibly getitng home from a soccer. football, etc game and will sit at the computer and it WON'T help if the first thing thy see is Bush killing Kerry in debate polls.

  by xsal on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:24:10 PM PDT

•  RawStory

  is now reporting on the poll hijacking.....

  by machadez on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:40:21 PM PDT

  •  link?

    or URL please?

    by Hounds on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:04:41 PM PDT

•  chill everyone

  They are about to caught - let it be just them that gets caught, not us.

  by storme on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:51:04 PM PDT

•  Message sent to CNN

  Several hours after last night's second presidential debate I voted in your online poll as to who won the second Presidential debate. For hours, through this AM, I noticed that the results were on the order of 60-70 perecent voting that John Kerry had won the debate. Magically, within the last 12 hours, the overall vote has shifted to 55 percent (and increasing) for President Bush. It might be worth your while to do a story on how the right wing blogosphere is using techniques (programming "scripts") to game the online poll system. Spontaneous pro Kerry poll results are being replaced by hacked right wing results. Look at your logs. You should be suspicious when you see thousands of pro-Bush results in a short period of time many hours past the opening of your poll.

  The Universe is a big place ... perhaps the biggest. -Kilgore Trout

  by fugitive on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:09:04 PM PDT

•  spread the word about the polls' hijackings

  if the word gets out -- as widely as possible -- about multiple polls -- cnn, fox, ms magazine (are there others ?) -- being hijacked, this could be as important as honest polls showing big kerry leads

  all the reports should be backed up with good documentary evidence tracing the trajectory of the hijackings

  by ira on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:22:12 PM PDT

•  Chill dude...

  
  Instead of worrying about the online polls and trying to write our own scripts to hack back, perhaps instead we should be spending our time writing letters to the editor.  Individual letters, and not boilerplate spam.
  

  by ericy on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:51:27 PM PDT

•  The FOX poll is down!

  by AdmiralNaismith on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:11:51 PM PDT

  •  Simple Reason

    Because Kerry was up.

    by cnflght on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:42:17 PM PDT

•  Tough decision...

  Do we take the moral high ground, or do we fight fire with fire?

  Four years ago the high ground was the place to be. And we got it shoved up our collective ass.

  Fight Rove with Rove.
  

  by pilgrim99 on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:39:56 PM PDT

•  Pick your battles

  Think about it. Reporters are lazy. They wrote their stories already.

  A dubious surge by Bush the day after the polls open just rings alarm bells. It won't change the dynamic of the common wisdom.

  We've won all three debates. Our GOTV is bigger than theirs. We care more. We're getting our message out. Concentrate on winning in November. Nobody will give a shit who hacked a poll by this time next week.

  I'm mostly surprised it took them this long to figure out how to do it. Though these internets are tricky and I bet they were too busy remembering Poland.

  by JetJaguar on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 10:52:20 PM PDT

•  Please do not "Hack Back"

  I've read a few posts above saying we should "hack back".  Please don't.  Repeatedly hitting any webserver programmatically can cause the website operaters to call the FBI and get you arrested for a Denial of Service attack.  It's not worth it.

  by marielle on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 11:23:10 PM PDT

•  CNN Poll

  The CNN poll is off the main page where it was.  I don't see it anywhere else.  Boo yah.

  by chi mai on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 12:31:56 AM PDT

  •  It's here...

    scroll down to "QUICKVOTE"

    Bush currently up substantially.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/09/debate.main/index.html

    by Paul on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 12:52:06 AM PDT

•  CNN double standard

  When Edwards starting kicking Cheney's ass in the who won the VP debate poll, they pulled the poll. Now that there is clear evidence of a pro-Bush script they aren't doing a thing. Yet again, pro-Republican CNN shows its bias. It's CEO is maxxed out to Bush.

  by jfern on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 12:38:03 AM PDT

•  MSNBC has Kerry up 62% - 38% now

  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#survey

  Who won the debate?

  1738146 responses

  Pres. Bush  38%

  Sen. Kerry  62%

  by enthusiast on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 12:44:15 AM PDT

•  CNN POLL WAS GINNED: NUMBERS JUST DON'T ADD UP:

  You do the math---

  The total number of votes cast in the CNN poll after the first debate were 805,807.  Bear in mind that this debate took place on a Thursday night (one of the most popular nights of the week for TV viewing)and was watched by 62.5 million people.

  The total number of votes cast thus far after the second debate is 1,407,986---or 75% more votes than were cast after the first debate! While the total numbers of viewers who tuned in for Friday's debate isn't yet available, preliminary results listed on the Nielsen website would seem to indicate a significant drop-off from the first debate.

  If so, it makes absolutely no sense that the number of respondents to the CNN poll would increase so dramatically after the second debate---and especially the day AFTER the debate.

  Curiouser and curiouser . . .

  by I am Spartacus on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 03:03:58 AM PDT

  •  It makes perfect sense

    The republicans are coordinating efforts to freep the polls, just as WE have done for the first and second debates.  This boosts "turnout" and so the poll registers more votes.  Democrat voting probably didn't increase as much, thus the increase in Bush's lead.  

    Another explanation for Bush's lead is that news coverage has shifted towards Bush, but since I don't watch TeeVee I've no idea if this is true.

    by Subterranean on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 05:37:52 AM PDT

    •  WAIT A SECOND PEOPLE

      It looks like there's TWO CNN polls on the debate.

      The one everyone's freaking out about is here Where Bush is winning 57-41.

      Then, there's THIS poll where Kerry is winning 84-14.

      What is up with this?  How can there be two polls?  With two completely different results?  Kerry is KILLING Bush in the other one.  An unsolved mystery, no doubt.

      by chi mai on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 07:03:08 AM PDT

•  CNN: WHAT'S UP WITH THE MULTIPLE POLLS...

  You're right; something odd seems to be going on here . . .

  However, The total votes cast for the poll showing  Kerry ahead is only 90,780, whereas the poll favoring the Bush shows a total of 1,434,692 votes cast so far. Between the two polls almost 1.5 million votes have been recorded---a jump of 78% over the first debate poll.

  by I am Spartacus on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 11:37:02 AM PDT

•  The problem

  as I see it is that if nothing is done by the various websites hosting these polls, we've already lost the 3rd debate online polling wars unless we script right back. This is just a practice run for next Wednesday for the freepers.

  by Helen in MD on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 01:36:49 PM PDT