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What is puzzling everyone at the moment is the discrepancy between the exit polls and the votes that are being reported. The way the pundits are framing this issue is: what went wrong with the exit polls?

But what reasons do we actually have for thinking the exit polls were wrong? Previously, exit polls have reflected fairly closely the finally recorded vote. (On MSNBC, I heard Matthews suggesting that Republicans not liking to talk to pollsters explained the discrepancy: that's a new one to me.)

The technology of exit polling has not changed. There has been a change in voting technology, however -- namely, electronic voting machines. Neither electronic voting machines nor exit polls leave a paper trail. (Actually, exit polls do leave a paper trail, but it has no legal import.) So why should we believe electronic voting machines more than exit polls?

I remember reading already at the time of the 2002 election that if electronic voting machines were used to defraud an election, the way you would be able to tell is that there would be a mismatch between the exit polls and the reported vote.

Two states are critical now: Florida and Ohio. Both states make significant use of electronic voting machines. Both states have Bush ahead, even though exit polls indicated a definite Kerry victory.

Because electronic voting machines do not leave a paper trail, we simply have to take the word of the people and corporations that program the machines that they accurately register votes. But why should we take their word for it? Elections are based on transparency, and there is nothing less transparent than a computer running proprietary software.

Kerry must not pull a Gore. Until it can be shown that counties that use electronic voting machines produce comparable results to counties that don't, he should concede neither Florida nor Ohio.

Update [2004-11-3 1:44:27 by Alexander]: In another diary, Neverknowsbest points out that the only two states in which exit polls differ markedly from the recorded vote are Florida and Ohio: both critical battleground states, and both states with widespread use of electronic voting machines. In that thread, I note that the normal way of confirming that an election was properly conducted is by noting that exit poll results match the number of votes officially recorded.

Exit polls are what made Jimmy Carter declare that the recent vote conducted in Venezuela to reject a recall of their president was properly conducted. The Dem establishment put themselves in this position. They simply did not take seriously warnings by activists about the dangers of electronic voting machine fraud. But that still does not mean that Kerry needs to take this as a done deal.

The basic thing to keep in mind is: if they were going to steal the election a second time around, this is exactly how they would do it. And the way it would show up is that the exit polls wouldn't match the officially recorded votes.

Update [2004-11-3 4:58:27 by Alexander]: This thread covers the same ground.

We definitely seem to be entering into a new period of history. No one is going to be able to say that the US is a stable democracy after this. We are coming up to one of those decisive moments, like the lead-up to the Civil War. This is defenitely not business as usual.

Kerry isn't ready to concede. What is he going to do? How willing is he to speak the truth: that the republic is rotten to the core, and a little under half of the population with privileges to vote in national elections is certifiably insane?

Originally posted to Alexander on Tue Nov 02, 2004 at 09:47 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  bbv claims vulnerability (none)
      This is still very tin-foil hat, but the blackboxvoiting people claim that a vulnerability exists and is possibly being abused here

      We now have evidence that certainly looks like altering a computerized voting system during a real election, and it happened just six weeks ago.

      MONDAY Nov 1 2004: New information indicates that hackers may be targeting the central computers counting our votes tomorrow. All county elections officials who use modems to transfer votes from polling places to the central vote-counting server should disconnect the modems now.

      There is no down side to removing the modems. Simply drive the vote cartridges from each polling place in to the central vote-counting location by car, instead of transmitting by modem. "Turning off" the modems may not be sufficient. Disconnect the central vote counting server from all modems, INCLUDING PHONE LINES, not just Internet.

      In a very large county, this will add at most one hour to the vote-counting time, while offering significant protection from outside intrusion.

      It appears that such an attack may already have taken place, in a primary election 6 weeks ago in King County, Washington -- a large jurisdiction with over one million registered voters. Documents, including internal audit logs for the central vote-counting computer, along with modem "trouble slips" consistent with hacker activity, show that the system may have been hacked on Sept. 14, 2004. Three hours is now missing from the vote-counting computer's "audit log," an automatically generated record, similar to the black box in an airplane, which registers certain kinds of events.

      Proprietary software is ridiculous. No paper trail is simply anti-democratic.
      •  more at wired.com (none)
        here
        Voters in Florida and Texas complained about calibration problems with touch-screen machines. Problems occurred when voters touched the screen next to one candidate's name and an "X" appeared in a box next to another candidate's name. The Election Protection Network also received more than 32 reports from various states that spread across all the top e-voting brands made by Diebold Election Systems, Election Systems & Software, Hart InterCivic and Sequoia.

        These problems involved e-voting machines that appeared to record votes correctly when voters touched the screen, but indicated a different selection on the review screen before voters cast their ballot. In some cases voters had to redo their ballot five or six times before the correct votes took.

        You dont even need to prove some malicious intent, if these machines are malfunctioning, then there better be a revote.
  •  It may not be the voting machines but... (4.00)
    ... the counting machines.

    Something is definitely awry here.  I was looking at the WV counties, my home state.  Kerry up some, Bush up some, and then in some counties, Bush up a whole slew.  Right next door to other counties where the difference was about even.

    What's up with that?  

    And yes, the exit polls were clearly pointing to a big Kerry win.  The number of people voting (record numbers all over, by everyone's account) pointed to a big Kerry win.  The GOTV effort on our part and the positive response we got from it pointed to a big Kerry win.

    What's up with that?

    How did they do it?

  •  2002 in Georgia was the tip of the iceberg, (4.00)
    but no one wanted to pay attention.  If Kerry wasn't prepared to contest the states with Diebold, then he doesn't deserve to win.  It's not the exit polls or the Democrats that are wrong, it's the fucking rigged machines.  Say goodbye to democracy folks, the show's over.
    SHIT.
    •  I am sorry to say that you are right (4.00)
      Kerry and the Dem leadership were warned about electronic voting machines, but they just handed the problem over to their lawyers. And by the time the lawyers get to it, it's all over, since there's no paper trail.

      The classic Dem and liberal weakness: not grasping the depravity of your opponent, and the length to which he will go to undermine democracy.

      From a completely non-partisan and objective point of view: even if I'm completely wrong and paranoid, there is no way of proving it, since there is no paper trail.

      Sooner or later of course, people will compare results from elecronic voting machines with results from demonstrably accurate means of registering votes. But by then it will be too late. Just like when the vote tallies from Florida 2000 were finally released, it was too late.

      To make abstractions hold in reality is to destroy reality. -- Hegel
      modern times

      by Alexander on Tue Nov 02, 2004 at 10:06:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It does not have to be too late. (4.00)
        If Kerry files lawsuits they can follow this logic to one of two kinds of victories
        1. legal
        2. PR, creating a movement for reform

        It is a simple argument to compare Diebold counties and non-Diebold counties and note that non-Diebold counties are consistent with exit polls, but Diebold counties diverge. This is proof of fraud.

        If the courts accept the argument, we win the election

        If the courts throw out the argument, we still support the story as a moral defeat of the judges and their unreasonable reasoning. Out of this we create a movement to absolutely get rid of this avenue for fraud.

        Either way the Rethugs will ridicule us and the media will join in both cruidely and subtly. This does not matter. We already know that the only reason to ramrod in a Diebold system was to use its ability to be hacked.

        So we're right. So all we have to do is never forget that,and we will win.

        Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

        by citizen on Tue Nov 02, 2004 at 10:59:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exit polls being changes on CNN, etc. (none)
          The machines need to be seized while they still may reasonably have the code on them that skewed the results.  If they are left unattended, they will be altered to clear the trail.

          Kerry should be filing to have these machines seized immediately.  They should then be examined by computer scientists for fraud.  If it is in the code, it can be found.  However, if the machines are altered and the code changed, there would be no way to tell.

          They can not manufacture a machine that can not be tampered with.  If the code is changed, there will be no trail.  They MUST seize the machines NOW!

          •  A clever programmer could erase the traces (none)
            That is, have the code overwrite its criminal parts with innocuous code when the vote was (almost) over.

            The medium shapes the message --
            we need better new media, more biased toward reality.

            by technopolitical on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 12:45:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Not over. Georgia is now part of our evidence, (none)
      and I say now because its only evidence when we start to argue the case that this was vote fraud. Until then its just random facts. It's when we dispute the matter that it becomes meaningful, it bedcomes evidence.

      Shit, yes. But not over.

      Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

      by citizen on Tue Nov 02, 2004 at 11:04:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ghost in the machine. (none)
    We are being rolled.

    Oh, they wouldn't share their code & no paper. They were heavy Republican contributors.

    We'll see how everything else plays out, but has anyone a map of the remaining states and possible Deibold ghosts?

    If so, Democracy is dead in the United States.  Practice your loyalty oaths & grease up those arm bands to slick over those thick biceps.

    Are we accepting this at a leadership level?

  •  This was my biggest fear all along (4.00)
    Someone has to do something.  Between Bush's failure to win popular in 2000, his dismal performance, Repubs jumping ship right and left, the GOTV, the youth (which according to eyewitness reports, mobilized), long lines at the polls, the alienation of the intelligence community from Bush, it is utterly unbelievable that Kerry isn't landsliding.  There aren't enough evangelicals and Hatetriots in this country to carry Bush.  This election is rigged.
    •  something is wrong... (4.00)
      Just an anecdote... my heavily republican WV precinct was packed with 20 something voters, lines were out the door of the school - cars were parking along the shoulder of a busy road.
      Normally I'm voting with 2 or 3 senior citizens.  
      Maybe GOTV got out the Bush voters?  I don't believe it.  I talked to too many people, people who normally don't give a shit about politics, who couldn't understand how anyone could view the last 4 years as anything other than a disaster, and were motivated to vote for the first time.
  •  Felons for Hire! (none)
    YES, I've been screaming like a banshee on the obvious problem with a company that, according to Bev Harris of Blackboxvoting.org, has hired two former felons to write software for their voting equipment.

    I attended a hearing in California where the results of an audit of the 17 counties using Diebold machines revealed that not one single Diebold machine had the proper certified software.  

    The Diebold representative said it was because there was a single spelling error.  In response a computer scientist retorted that's interesting, why then is it one megabyte larger?  The computer scientist then concluded:  Diebold must be voted off the island!

    So, I have to respond that exit polls are more accurate (even though they don't include all absentees).

    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Tue Nov 02, 2004 at 10:49:24 PM PST

  •  Exit poll numbers mysteriously changing!! (none)
    The books are being cooked as we blog.
    See this diary (not mine) for details and recommend it.

    If this shit stands, then clearly we no longer live in a democracy in any sense of that word.  Other countries and our own future generations will look on us with a mix of pity and loathing if we don't figure out a way to get our country back.

    Changing horses midstream is a wise move if your current horse is insane.

    by tsurube on Tue Nov 02, 2004 at 10:53:54 PM PST

    •  Ohio's (none)
      exit poll results on CNN.com definitely changed. No doubt about it.
      •  Re-weighted to reflect actual precinct totals (none)

        The exit polls are supposed to be re-weighted to reflect the actual precinct vote totals (total number of voters at that precinct).  Earlier in the day, they reflect the prior elections vote total.

         

    •  surreal (none)
      I hate to jump to conclusions, so I'll just second the observables.

      OH and FL exit poll numbers have both been significantly revised sometime within the last hour or two.

      I distinctly recall being surprised to see that Kerry was preferred by both men and women in the "earlier" exit polls.  In fact, the earlier exit poll showed a consistent preference in most subcategories for Kerry.

      Can somebody who knows something about how these exit polls were actually conducted today weigh in with a plausible explanation other than that the "books are being cooked?"

      Could exit polling data still legitimately be trickling in through the course of the evening?

      •  The answer is no (none)
        The whole point of exit polling is that it involves very little data compared to actual official votes, so it is easy to tabulate quickly. My impression is that exit polling stopped at 5 PM EST, since that's when Zogby made his prediction for a Kerry win, and stopped producing more exit polls. Republican pollster Frank Luntz predicted a Kerry victory soon thereafter.

        Once polls started closing at 7 PM EST, all the news was coming from reports of actual recorded votes, so there would be no reason for exit poll figures to change from this time on. Exit polls were simply old news at this point; the only reason to revise them would be to "rewrite history".

        To make abstractions hold in reality is to destroy reality. -- Hegel
        modern times

        by Alexander on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 12:08:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  certainly what "exit poll" implies (none)
          However, I found the following interesting additional information.

          This story from the AP notes that the exit polls were "conducted for The Associated Press by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International".

          The Edison Media Research site cryptically talks about a second stream of information (the Quick Count), declaring that

          "Our system will add this new information to the Exit Poll information, and often this is the push that makes the outcome clear."

          Why this commingled information would continue to be (erroneously) labelled exit polling data is beyond me, but at least there's some hope that if the books aren't being cooked intentionally that the raw exit data is still out there.

  •  I think you are right (none)
    I don't trust polls - so many things can go wrong, from people refusing to answer to biased samples. But exit polls have been reliable indicators of voter sentiment for decades - until recently. Couple that with machines that are produced by right wing companies and have no paper trail, and throw in a number of voters who said that they chose democratic and the result came up for Bush, and it's hard not to feel like there is something rotten here.  I don't want to sound paranoid, but ... there are way too many questions.  The most important one is: what the heck can we do about it?  There is no paper trail and no way to check the vote talley.  
  •  Actually there is a way to test it.. (none)
    compare the results of exit polls in areas with traditional ballots with the results of exit polls in machine counted area.  If there are discrepancies in the traditional ballot areas, that would indicate that the polling is in error.  If the discrepancies occur primarily in areas with machine counted ballots, that would be a good indication of foul play.
    •  Remember that in this election (none)
      exit polling was conducted solely by AP and no one else was allowed.  This means they can fix the exit polls too.

      Plenty of flu shots for those of us with National Health Service

      by LondonYank on Tue Nov 02, 2004 at 11:09:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Let Us Cut to the Chase. (4.00)
      If there is real data showing a statistically significant difference between the accuracy of exit polling in regions with different types of voting machines and procedures, then this data MUST be published AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

      But it's gotta be real clean data and the presentation must be made as empirically as possible.  

      No politics.  No spin.  No nothing.

      Numbers don't lie.

      Statistics works.  

      If such numbers/data exist, could they be published as a mathematical paper?

      A really short and minimally technical one?

      My point is that the first challenge in such a circumstance would be to make a convincing and accessible MATHEMATICAL argument.  

      Any political argument would then flow from the very nature of mathematical truth.

  •  This is a very big deal. (none)
    your point is well made.  It is extremely out of the ordinary for the exit polls to be so far off the mark.  What's so upsetting to me is that every one of these networks has done stories on these bushbots over the last several months.  But rather than address this possibility tonight they have concocted all kinds of justifications to explain the discrepency in the numbers.  Go figure.

    Why isn't everyone here talking about this. what to do?

  •  black box voting says... (none)

    Voting without auditing. (Are we insane?)

    SEATTLE, WASHINGTON Nov 3 2004 -- Did the voting machines trump exit polls? There's a way to find out.

    http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

  •  Results / Polls (none)
    With no paper trail is it possible for anybody to challange the results?
    •  No (none)
      There is no ballot. The vote is just recorded in a database somewhere. This is the equivalent of going up to someone, telling him your vote, and watching as he makes a mark under either "0" or "1." You have to trust that he put it in the right column. Under this sort of system there is no distinguishable ballot to count, there is just a tally in the computer to call up. You can't recount what you don't have: ballots.
  •  If an election was stolen ... (4.00)
    but no one in the corporate media heard it, would it make a sound?
  •  In Michigan (4.00)
    In Michigan we vote on paper ballots. The pre-election polls were correct, the exit polls that came out during the day were correct, and the final exit polls were correct.

    In Florida they vote electronically, and Bush got a 5 point surge compared to the exit polls (which were right in 2000 in Florida)

  •  This election was stolen (4.00)
    It is beyond belief that people have not taken the electronic voting issue more seriously.

    <"Do not seek the treasure!" >

    by moon in the house of moe on Tue Nov 02, 2004 at 11:12:06 PM PST

  •  Exactly (4.00)
    As I said elsewhere last week, Kerry has won. This is the obvious fact that should've been hold as obvious even before the election. If he "loses", it only means that there has been fraud in a way or another, it doesn't mean he got less votes than Chimpy.
    This is a theft, this is just another illegal take-over, this is a coup, and Kerry IS the president-elect, just as Gore was the president-elect.
  •  Not the time and place... (none)
    Just to plant this seed...Dunno how or when or where but it's got to be brought up and pushed that we need an open-source solution to this!!!
  •  This is an EXCELLENT point... (none)
    exit polling methods have remained steady -- voting methods have changed radically this year....

    hmmm, geez, I wonder what the hell would be the more 'suspect' cause of problems?!?

    Just not 'sexy' enough for the talking hairdos to bother their 'brilliant minds' with...

    YEE-HAW is not a foreign policy.

    by molls on Tue Nov 02, 2004 at 11:20:15 PM PST

  •  Don't trust Diebold (4.00)
    Before Bush is crowned and ensconsed, 10 days to:

    precinct by precinct, compare Diebold and non-Diebold results.

    compare changes in voting patterns from 2000 to 2004 in Diebold and in non-Diebold precincts.

    And I think it probably was stolen. It'll take a statistician, but I suspect that the difference between exit polls and votes is greater where touch-screen voting machines have been used. Could be wrong, but the fact that the GOP wouldn't let any bills requiring a paper trail even come to a vote tells me something

  •  Yes! STOLEN! (none)
    I posted earlier about the MSNBC exit poll numbers in OH and nationally not even close to matching the results.  

    THE MSNBC NUMBERS HAVE BEEN CHANGED FOR OHIO AND THERE IS NO EXPLANATION POSTED FOR THE REVISION.

    All of us here on DKos have been paying very close attention and we all know in our hearts this election was STOLEN today.  This is outrageous!

    I HEREBY GRANT KERRY AND EDWARDS AND THE ARMIES OF THE LEFT PERMISSION TO NEVER CONCEDE THIS TRAVESTY OF AN ELECTION!

    Forget being gracious in defeat for the good of the nation.  A concession by KE04 would not be good for the nation!

    Un-fucking-believable.

  •  Total BS (none)
    from the very beginning I was screaming the diebold non paper machines was a farce to democracy. This same company can make atm that can pop out a receipt with an up to dat e bank balance n seconds but can't make a paper voting receipt?  right there, I knew this election was stolen.

     Hell to be honest, stealing elections is nothing new in this country, what we say we are, and what real history shows us as, is so night and day its not even funny. I feel nothing for this country anymore- nothing.

  •  WTF is going on with Florida ?!?!? (none)




    As you can see, Kerry is CREAMING Bush on the big counties, Except for Orange which is at 50/50

    Where is the evidence Bush is winning ?

    You want the Truth ? You can't handle the Truth ! ~~~~ See my blog here~~~~

    by lawnorder on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 12:22:49 AM PST

  •  Screen shots ? (none)
    Do we have screen shots of their original exit polls ?

    Can we have someone leak us the final , full, exit polls from the VNS (or whatever it's called now ?)

    This would be easy to prove, or raise doubts, with accurate data.

    We just need the data.

  •  Another Avenue for Testing fraud (4.00)
    I don't know how well this idea holds up in court, but it sure could give something for the media to chew on, and it is something I would like to see people look in to.

    But here is the basic idea:

    Look at the numbers for lower down the ticket races, state house, state senate, county commissoner, others that are likely to be determined soley by a party line vote by and large. Compare those numbers on the local races to the numbers in the national races (Prez, US Senate / Congress).

    The logic is this. If Diebold (or whoever) were a little lazy, they may have only altered the upper ballot races, perhaps ONLY the presidential race.

    So what you do is compare the presidential numbers to the local candidate numbers and see if there is an anomolous marked diversion in Diebold counties. Think like this, if a county voted 60% for Bush, but only 40% for lower down republicans that generally are following party lines, why would that occur? Especially if you can find other (non-diebold) counties that follow a somewhat more party line split occuring. If you can find that along with % diverges on the prez numbers in demographically simlar areas that have no salient difference other than being diebold vs. non diebold, then you have som pretty good circumstancial evidence.

    The evidence may even still be in the other Federal races (assuming Diebold was lazy didn't steal those as well)

    What made me think of this is that here in CO our presidential numbers didn't seem to jive with the numbers we got further down the ticket. Democrats won the State house and the State Senate (unprecidented for 35 years) yet swong for the president by a sizeable margin. Why would that happen? The Matsunaka v Musgrave race is still close with numbers still comming in! If people are voting democrat everywhere else why would they suddenly switch at the top of the ticket?

    Am I too much tin foil and not enough hard statistical facts? Thoughts?

    •  Good point (none)
      But what kind of voting system have you got over there in Colorodo? The discrepancy you mention between state and national votes certainly sounds suspicious.

      I just hope that Kerry doesn't give in on this. We have had so many elections stolen: the first that comes to mind is 1968, when Kissinger treasonously conducted negotiations with the South Vietnamese, thus making it impossible for Johnson to create a peace treaty for the Vietnamese war, and thus throwing the election for Nixon. Johnson had bugged Rethug operatives treasonously holding negotiations with the North Vietnamese, but he didn't release the tapes, because he didn't want to undermine Americans' confidence in their "democracy". I hope Kerry has the balls to break from this pattern. Gore sure didn't.

      To make abstractions hold in reality is to destroy reality. -- Hegel
      modern times

      by Alexander on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 01:21:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Good Point (none)
      I'm with you on this - top race distortion only?
  •  Why is the total popular vote (none)
    so low at this stage?  I'm just asking, but it looks like it will be no more than 10% higher this year than in 2000, perhaps even less.  Yet the lines I saw, and heard reports of in PA, suggested a much bigger increase in voting totals.

    On the other hand, I heard Mark Shields saying that in NH the exit polls predicted an 11% (??) Kerry win, which turned out to be wildly wrong.  Is that true?  If so, was NH using electronic machines?  Of course Republicans in NH are notorious for shenanigans, so who knows what may have been going on there this year.

    Around 8:30 pm EST I was talking to a friend who had led an exit polling group in PA.  He said that their response rate today was about 50%, which is pretty normal; he thought their own numbers were very credible.  He also thought the national exit poll numbers looked very good for Kerry.  His confidence makes me even more suspicious that the electronic 'votes' have been hacked.

    Is anybody else besides me surprised to find that Kerry got no more than 61% in a big Democratic county in Florida?

  •  i'm afraid that i think we're right to be paranoid (none)
    i am not usually given to conspiracy theories, but i think - and this is rational calculation - that we have been looking for voter fraud in florida in all the wrong places. yes, there were problems with registration and absentee ballots, but, at the end of the day, those are red herrings. this community probably knows well how easy it would be to tamper with an electronic voting machine. diebold has helped facilitate the real coup here.
  •  Lone voices in the wilderness (4.00)
    Those of us who have been screaming about this for 2 years now are going hoarse.

    I can't express how painful it is to watch every prediction unfold into another 4 years of Bush.

    It's time to clean house and find representatives who listen to the truth.

  •  51/49 not predictive (none)
    Given all the well-known problems with exit polls and their poor past history, it is not surprising that a 51/49 Kerry margin in the OH and FL exit polls did not hold up.  There is no mystery here.  

    The exit polls are always re-weighted after the final vote to reflect the actual total number of votes at the sampled precincts.  This gives a much more accurate picture of the electorate.    

    Now of this is a defense of Diebold or paperless voting, which is a truly terrible idea.  I too would like to know if the surpisingly high Bush vote totals are in Diebold areas.

  •  Recommended (none)
    Thanks for posting this information. Sigh. I think you've summed it up rather well.

    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Meade

    by ilona on Wed Nov 03, 2004 at 06:43:17 AM PST

  •  Screen Shots of CNN Exit Polls (Changed) (none)
    Try over at DU (democratuniteddotcom)a poster named SoCalDemocrat has both the screen shots of CNN exit polls before and after the "switch" for both FL and OH.

    In addition he has the math analysis to prove the 4-6% bump for shrub ONLY on the touchscreens without the paper trail audit.  DAMNING EVID.
    (if the sample size don't fit - you must acquit.
    raver

  •  Screen Shots of CNN Exit Polls (Changed) (none)
    Try over at DU (democratundergrounddotcom)a poster named SoCalDemocrat has both the screen shots of CNN exit polls before and after the "switch" for both FL and OH.

    In addition he has the math analysis to prove the 4-6% bump for shrub ONLY on the touchscreens without the paper trail audit.  DAMNING EVID.
    (if the sample size don't fit - you must acquit.
    raver

  •  Printer (roll) on Diebold terminal (none)
    Sorry for above double post.  I voted e on Diebold in Palm Beach County FL in the 18th OCT.
    I was surprised to see a roll printer behind each terminal.  I called over the Kerry lawyer/observer and ask him if there was written confirmation of my vote.  He said NO - printer just programmed for "write-ins".  This problem was a software defiency not HARDWARE.  I didn't realize that our terminals had printers - just no proof of vote.

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