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Someone with initials RG and who signs a letter as "Bob G." (but may not be Senator Bob Graham) has been participating in Jeff Fisher's investigation.  First, in a letter to Erskine Bowles, RG reveals what is happening.  Here are some who are looking at this besides Keith Olbermann and Bev Harris:

investigation,  which is now under review by the FBI, Cam Kerry's  DNC Legal Team in DC, Ralph Nader, 60 Minutes, Michael Moore

Here is the evidence, which includes an insider whistleblower, from RG's letter to Bev Harris:

Specific evidence includes copies of internal memo's and emails as well as testimony of the MIS Director of one Florida facility where much of the hacking was perpetrated. The work was replicated and limited to one location to avoid easy detection.

The MIS Director is currently in hiding. Jeff can reach him.

By internally tampering with Diebold Optical Scanners as well as Diebold Electronic E voting machines, the hacking, ( done from remote locations under the control of Mel Stembler's facilities ( see below ) , votes were altered, switched , deleted or detroyed in numerous Florida, Ohio and New Mexico counties and then switched from John Kerry to George Bush.

They seem to know a lot of the details:

The vote fraud system was first tested in 1999. Used in the Florida Presidential Election in 2000. Tested again successfully in Jeb Bush's race against Janet Reno and then Bill Mc Bride and finally in the 2004 Presidential Election. Also Georgia.

The second part of this scheme seems to be that they also cover their tracks by using the names of Felons and others purged falsely onto the Felon voter roles. This I believe allows them to seem to use legitimate numbers by first inflating the roles and them flipping or using them in some places with out drawing to much attention. This also may be why we saw so many overvotes in places where there weren't enough felon votes. This last sentence is my speculation.

The scheme used computers at their facilities, an MIS director who trained juvenile delinquents under custody as well as others to hack into Diebold systems around the country and place software kernels that would raise votes for one candidate while deleting the others.

This would explain both the erratic polls discrepancies reported in especially swing states but also here in North Carolina.

These software fixes are supposed to leave no audit trail. This also would explain the seemingly random gltiches of people voting Kerry and getting Bush on review or the strrange over vote errors. I believe by the seizing of evidence under your FOIA we will be able with the help of experts to discover the audit trail and other evidence of tampering.

Our specific evidence centers around Bay Point School in So Miami as the epicenter facility.

This will hopefully blow wide open very soon.  Please God let this rid us of George Bush and his cronies.
Update [2004-11-15 23:59:45 by mikepridmore]: I received this in an e-mail from someone I trust who referred to the letters as being from Bob Graham. I am looking for alternate confirmation. Update [2004-11-16 1:38:50 by mikepridmore]: A lot of people doubt the authenticity of the data in these letters. If the data is fake we will know soon enough. I have read that Russell Baker had interviewed the witness recently. Maybe there is a story that will come out and maybe there isn't. But while I agree it is healthy to be skeptical, I think we should talk about this reasonably.

Originally posted to mikepridmore on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 08:32 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I hope to GOD so!! (none)
    See Calee4nia's diary on what one of Kerry's lawyers is saying, and he IS using the "F" word.


    •  NOT SENATOR GRAHAM!! (none)

      Please edit the diary to reflect the fact that the author of the letter is NOT Senator Graham!

      Fight the American Taliban

      by pontificator on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:18:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]


        Mike, please read the letter yourself. It is so OBVIOUSLY not from Senator Bob Graham. While the content of the letter MAY have something to it, your ID of Sen. Graham doesn't advance our main purpose ... the truth.

        Please, please, please lets not fall for every shred or theory and promote (or recommend) it as if it were an established fact. That does not help in the long run and worse gives those who are opposed to finding out the truth something to point to that undercuts any further investigation.

        Also, let's beware of a RatherGate twist in the works. Remember the secretary said the "now discredited" memos were consistent with the truth it just wasn't established by those obvious word-processed letters. Rove and company are not like the MSM or SCLM they will work VERY HARD to protect what they have won (or stole, or were gifted) and planting bogus "conspiracy theory" stories would be very consistent with that purpose.

        Just my 2 cents.  No offense intended Mike, just clean-up the diary and lets investigate some more. I'm all for the truth on this one.

      •  Combatting voter fraud w/fraudulent info (none)
        Sweet irony.

        Do the right thing Mike and edit the diary.

        "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

        by skunky wazoo on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:42:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Does anyone know (none)
        who funds Bev Harris?
      •  Diary edited n/t (none)

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:47:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  knowns and unknowns (none)
          KNOWNS:  Someone wrote this document.  

          UNKNOWNS:  Who wrote it and whether a single word is true.

          UNKNOWN UNKNOWNS:  What's for breakfast?

          "For these things, too, and for a multitude of others like them, we have only just begun to fight." --FDR

          by markymarx on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:17:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Edited, but still wrong (none)
        I see the author has now edited the diary, but the intro is still wrong. The letters only identify the author by his initials - R.G. The links on Jeff Fisher's main page identify him as "Bob G." This Robert "Bob" G.'s last name isn't mentioned anywhere.

        So, how did Mr Pridmore come across the idea that the letter was from Bob Graham? Nothing in the letter itself suggests that it was written by Bob Graham - based on its content Bob Graham is one of the first names we can rule out. Not even Jeff Fisher's nutty website claims that the author is Bob Graham.

        "I don't understand 'proving to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons.'" -- Condi

        by Fleischer on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:50:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  As Mr. Pridmore (none)
          wrote in the update long long ago, he received an e-mail from a friend who (perhaps mistakenly) referred to the letters as being from Bob Graham.  Mr. Pridmore did mistakenly put B Graham instead of Bob G but changed it when he noticed the error.  Mr. Pridmore has sent an e-mail asking for some sort of confirmation to the friend who identified the letters as being from Bob Graham.

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:02:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I sent you an email (none)
            re the "source" of this story.  Please look at it.  It's informative in terms of making an acurate assessment of this information.

            As I say in it at the end, I can't decide which is better or worse, thinking that they stole the lection in plain sight or that we realy lost.  

    •  Do you think they would use a bunch of delinquents (none)
      Please.. What a ridiculous notion that they would use juvenile delinquents to do this. Hello?  Think about it.  

      How much work would it take to keep their mouths shut? Jees.  

      I personally still think this election was stolen, but this is crazy stuff.  Anyone attempting to steal this election would not have used this school to do it.  

      Just because someone ran for Congress, does not make them credible.

  •  Yikes (none)
    Sure, I'll recommend this one...
  •  This would be no suprise to me (none)
    This comes as no surprise to me. I was wondering if anyhting such as this was going to come out.

    On election day it just didn't make any sense. Too many places ended up going for Bush when all evidence pointed otherwise. Also, they only seemed to happen in optical scan machines (the kind that Diebold produces) and not in the electronic touch screen that everyone was looking for to mess up.

  •  Sen. Graham? (4.00)
    It's signed R.G., Raleigh, N.C. What makes you think it's Bob Graham?
    •  Robert Graham? (none)
      Where did you get htis letter?
    •  This sucks! (none)
      When I first read this my heart sunk, I thought we might have some solid proof.  But any letter that ends praising Bev so much really makes you wonder.  

      She has had some success - but she also falsly claimed that Obermann was getting heat from higher ups and she was wrong.

      Isn't Graham a former senator from Florida, not NC?

      When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

      by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:04:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  more silly bev bashing (none)
        is not particularly helpful is it? So someone in the media told her ther were under pressure, then denied it when it was reported.  Great way to tar the messenger, but we should se through these tired tactics.

        Also, when talking about Grahams, Bob was from FL, but Lindsey Graham, Cracker, was possibly from a carolina. Recall he had a weird pseudo-breakdown as he participated in the bogus impeachment... like he had a flicker of conscience.

        •  It's wierd (none)
          OK we all realize this letter is weird. I think we should realize that I think this guy Jeff Fisher retyped it on his website himself, and as you can see from the rest of it he's pretty sloppy to begin with. So that might explain the strange capitalizations and spacing.

          Second, if it's not real, that means a US congressman is posting false letter froms from Senator Graham (or whoever R.G. is) on his website. I'd imagine he wouldn't do that.

        •  asdf (none)
          Both she and Fisher have said they have proof but have given us nothing to back it up, even after promising that they would release it.

          I hope that I am dead wrong and will gladly be the first to apologize if she and Fisher are right, but this just doesn't pass the smell test.

          When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

          by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:26:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Bev's comment (none)
          Made some sense. She's been working hard, unlike the chimperor.

          No more faith-based electronic voting machines:

          by doug r on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:16:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly, Why Bash Bev? (none)
          Next time they want an audit or some real investigative work they better just call their pals at CNN or NBC.

          I suggest they do their homework and see that she's ALREADY blown the lid of a whole helluva lot.

          Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

          by Einsteinia on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:17:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  No she didn't (none)
        Get your fucking fact straight before you go around posting lies. OK?

        She neve specified who told her about the lockdown and she never specified what network, much less what show.

        Where do you people come from.

        "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." George Bush

        by TocqueDeville on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:43:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What? (none)
          Then why did Olbermann say, on his show, that the statement from Bev about his story being suppressed wasn't true??

          When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

          by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:54:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  He said it wasn't true at his show. (none)
            He never even implied that it wasn't true for CNN, CBS, ABC, FOX.

            And since Bev Harris never said anything about KO then the fact that noone at MSNBC told him not to cover it is completely irrelevant.

            I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh, but this is how reputation get harmed unjustly.

            Let me recap for clarity. Bev Harris said someone high up at a network. Keith O said, didn't happen to me. I've had nothing but support from my producers.

            That leaves what 5 other networks she could have been talking about.

            TV News Is Bad For Your Brain

            "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." George Bush

            by TocqueDeville on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:10:56 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You are right (none)
              When I think back, I do remeber him saying that she said it but she wasn't talking about him.  I think a lot of people assumed it was him.

              I know she hit the nail on the head with the GEMS security flaw.  I work with Access on a regular basis and I knew it was insane to have our votes stored on an unprotected DB that anyone could open and change.  Her website gives me cause for concern, it doesn't help her case when she posts a picture of a fried rat.  It may have been incidental but it doesn't help her cause.

              When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

              by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:25:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  but I like the (none)
                Peoples faces better than the fried rat.

                educate 'em when they're young

                by Chamonix on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:35:01 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  What fried rat. (none)
                I've been checking the front page of every day since the election and have never seen a fried rat.

                Do you have a link?

                Are you absolutely positive that the url was

                I ask because I'm starting to smell another rat: a campaign to discredit bev harris.

                "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." George Bush

                by TocqueDeville on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:41:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I know for sure that it was there (none)
                  I don't have a link because it was removed within a day.  It was right below the following statement:

                  SUNDAY Nov. 7 2004: We're awaiting independent analysis on some pretty crooked-looking elections. In the mean time, here's something to chew on.

                  I know I wasn't the only one to see it because others mentioned it here aswell.  Maybe one of them can back me up on this?

                  Don't get me wrong - I don't want to descredit anyone that is trying to make sure the election is fair, I just want to make sure they have credible evidence.

                  When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

                  by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:52:16 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  I looked at the original post (none)
      It's on the Jeff Fisher for Congress site, but it looks odd.  I agree Bob Graham most likely didn't write this.  I don't think he's ever been called Robert, and as he's still a senator, he would have signed as such.  Plus the North Carolina reference.
      Still, it would be nice to get the story behind the letter.

      The more a man believes he has God on his side, the more dangerous he is to other men.

      by jandey on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:04:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is the BEST piece of info yet! (none)
    (No more "j'accuse" aimed at Bev Harris, I hope.
    •  And? (none)
      How about no more aimed at the "spineless, capitulationist" Kerry campaign? Didn't the diary say Cam Kerry and the DNC lawyers were reviewing this?
    •  Addendum: It does look fishy. The letter. (none)
      Just like all the election irregularities.

      Some of which may turn out to be baseless in terms of malfeasance.

      As this may be baseless in terms of truth.

      I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

      Right in the shit.

      (((Tin Foil Activism!!! FunTimes!!! InBushTimes!!!)))

  •  This letter is exciting. (none)
    But how do we know it's really from Graham?  I suppose we'll know soon enough, if the letter gets enough publicity, and Graham either repudiates it or dodges the question.  But for now, how do we know?

    Oh, and I've been trying to get on BBV and cannot.  Anyone having the same trouble?

    •  I've seen some of this (none)
      before. The link to Fisher's site. The info about the school etc. Bob Graham's web page says nothing about this. His personal bio on the senate site does not say he ever was a "Robert.

      We observe, you decide. Kerry/Edwards 04 (just a little late)

      by Tomtech on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:18:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  All I see is (none)
    Jeff Fisher and Bev here.  RG could be anyone.
  •  Why do you think this RG is Senator Graham? (none)
    This "RG" person seems to be someone from North Carolina. Not Senator Graham.
  •  Senator Bob Graham? (none)
    The site you link to only refers to the letter writer as "Bob G." and are signed "r.g." I find it strange that Senator Bob Graham would only identify himself by initials. Can you show me where they name the letter writer as the former Senator?
  •  What!? (none)
    Is this for real?  God I hope so; do we really have the evidence they are talking about.  

    If this is real then the Al Qaqa is about to hit the fan.

    When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

    by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 08:41:01 PM PST

  •  huh (none)
    Yeah, that is odd... about R G.  Mike... ?  Is that really the Senator?

    Also, the look of Jeff Fisher's website didn't do much for credibility...  

    want more meat.

    •  I got an e-mail (none)
      before I posted stating that the letters were from Bob Graham.  I have not confirmed if that is true.  I updated the diary to show that.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:02:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Someone else seems to have recieved it too (none)
        Another diary has been posted too saying the same thing.  I don't know were it came from but I doubt its for real.  This just smells fishy.

        When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

        by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:17:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Reasons why (4.00)
        these letters are not from Senator Graham:

        1. A United States Senator does not write a letter to a fellow Democrat saying "I need to speak with you" and then post it on a House candidate's website - particularly a letter as poorly written as that one. He just calls him up himself, or more likely, his staff calls up Bowles' staff.

        2. The letter to Bowles states the author was active with the "Edwards for President" campaign.  Um, I'm pretty sure Bob Graham was busy running his own campaign.

        3. The Bowles letter states the author was active with the "Wake DNC," says the "election here in North Carolina," says "this great state of North Carolina," and signs the letter from "Raleigh NC."

        4. Bob Graham would not end a letter with a quote from Joseph Stalin.

        5. Bob Graham would not write a letter to Bev Harris imploring her to meet with Jeff Fisher, and conclude by saying "please contact us" and giving her Fisher's phone number.

        6. Bob Graham is an accomplished writer - this person is not.

        7. Bob Graham does not read Democratic Underground.

        lib-er-al: Open to new ideas for progress; tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; not limited to or by established, orthodox or authoritarian attitudes.

        by DCescapee on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:25:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the Correction (none)
        By the time I posted my comment about  R.G. obviously not being Sen. Graham it had already been corrected. I guess the lesson for me is to check the Diary again before posting a critique and your lesson is to not post a Diary with a link without reading the link.

        :( so sorry!

  •  Yeah (none)
    Now come to think of it, how do we know this is authentic? Don't get our hopes up man.
  •  just to note (4.00)
    if in fact fraud took place in Florida in 2000, several things to bear in mind

    1. you only have to prove 538 fraudulent votes for Bush to demosntrate that he took office under false pretenses

    2. once any fraud could be proven for 2000, it would clearly demonstrate that parallels between 20004 figures and 2000 figures do not disprove fraud, because the 2000 figures are in doubt

    3.  to do remote hacking as is suggested, there is at least something of an audit trail  -- that would be the phone records.   A simple check of phone records from the one site, if it was al done from the one site, will show several things
    a) phone calls to the machines to plant the altered software

    and if they had any brains
    b) phone calls to the machines as quickly after the election as those machines would nomlonger be used to remove the altered software

    of course, the latter might not be possible, because the machines could have been disconnected from the phone lines at that point.  If that were the case, then at least some of those machines that were called would still have the altered software on them, and a forensic analysis of the code would be able to demonstrate that the code ws altered -- this might require Dieblod to disclose to the forensic examiners the source code that is supposed to match what is on the machine to look for discrepancies.

    If you have an individual who will swear to having participated and give the particulars, that should be sufficient for the FBI to seize and examine any machines and phone records.  Of course, you'd have to have a semi-honest US Attorney willing to pursue this.

    The implications are staggering.  If there is an insider, that would give credibility to the story   and then the SCLM and the MSM media might suddenly change their tune on the subject.

    Don't hold your breath.  Since Republicans still control the authority of the federal legal system and the Florida legal system, they have the peopel in place to prevent this fro m getting too far developed.

    But if Sen Graham takes it seriously, he has enough creds within Florida that many Repubs would be willing to foolow up   ... he might be very key to this process.

    Those that can, do. Those that can do more, TEACH!

    by teacherken on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 08:42:02 PM PST

    •  a followup - in case this is real (4.00)
      if it is real, and the insider can identify a location where the changes were made in state where the law enforcement is under the control of Democrats, say either by a DA or by a State Atorney general, then the seizing of ohone records and examination of machines becomes possible.

      Of course, if someone was really technically adept, it would be possible to place the phone call in such a way that it was not tracebale, say by hooking up at their end to throwaway cell phones.   And if they were that smart, you might be able to find out that calls were made, but not be able to prove anything beyond that.

      But IF this story is true [and based on what I read before on jeff Fisher's site, I would withhold judgment  --  I too ahve dobuts that the RG is Bob Graham], then the set-up they would have been using, they probably would not think that (a) it would ever be detected, and (b) that it could ever be traced back to them.

      I don't ahve a problem with the fact of using juveinle delinquents  -- given some of the near delingquents I have taught and knowing their facility around computers, they might be just as adept as a professional.  And given the lack of sphistication and security that has already been identified with Diebold it does not seem to this former computer professional (20+ years of expereince before becoming a teacher] a particularly difficult technical feat.

      For what it is worth.  And I am not holding my breath.

      One last thought   --- the entire thing could be a disinformation by Rove and co -- if there really is sn MIS director out there who could hurt them, by floating a false memo with SOME real information, you can poison the well so no one takes the story seriously   -- thing ab out the set up on CBS with the memos rom TANG.  Theyu KNOW we'd love to nail them for fraud, so if they are vulnerb ale, they would almost certainly poison the welol of the news media by polutting anything that might otherwise be follwoed up.

      Now, maybe that represents tin-foil headgear?

      Those that can, do. Those that can do more, TEACH!

      by teacherken on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:11:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  absolutely right (none)
        I've held back because 'nuanced' skeptics got flamed early on, even though I also believe we need to count every vote. Every vote must be counted, yes. We must do this for the future at the very very least and get this technology right, and get oversight.
        But we shouldn't pounce on everything and make the wish the father to the thought. Unintentional errors must be documented based on evidence. And we need to be careful not to impute intentional error until there is evidence of it.
        You are totally right. Of course this is a perfect medium for Rove pathogens to grow. Seed the net with some spurious stories to discredit the whole thing and then the media backs off. Plant a TRUE story but in a flawed way to inoculate the perpetrators. We still haven't heard the whole story on Rather I bet.
        That's not tin foil. It's the tactics you would use if there had been fraud.
  •  Jeb v Janet? (none)
    I thought that Janet was defeated in the primaries... and speculation was that this was helpful to Jeb as she would have been a more formidable opponent?

    Either way, this looks a hell of a lot like something I saw linked to over on Cannonfire today: Jeff Fisher Speaks?

    Cannonfire doesn't expose the name of the mystery informant.  I wonder how much there is to all of Jeff's claims...

    I Googled Bay Point Juvenile and got some circular logic going on.  I wonder how much of this information is new, and how much is recycled?

    This has officially been my first Kos post ever.  Hopefully first of many.

  •  Doubts (3.66)
    I hate to cast doubt, but take a look at the letters.  They are erratically capitalized and use some pretty odd language.  The letter to Bev Harris ends with:

    Beverly, Bless you and your family for 100 generations. May you travel safe surrounded by light. Thank you for being such a strong warrior and seeker of truth. You will always be remembered in our hearts and dreams.

    Both are just signed "r.g."  Maybe that means Robert Graham, but it certainly doesn't sound like a Senator talking.  If they really do have an "inside informant" great, but I'm skeptical for now.

    •  yep (none)
      I agree.  It's oddman-in-a-cabin writing:

      "When  isolating and comparing the early voting results, polling data and  actual election day  resulys. there are  opnly two things  that don't  correlate. "

      "For these things, too, and for a multitude of others like them, we have only just begun to fight." --FDR

      by markymarx on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 08:52:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And did you read the part where 'R.G.' (4.00)
      promises Bev ten camels, five oxen, and the youngest of his virgin daughters?

      "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

      by machopicasso on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 08:57:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Great Job (none)
      This diary was posted at 21:36  By 21:39 initial euphoria was being replaced by suspician. You read the Letter carefully and got this post out within five minutes. I checked the Bob Graham web site and found nothing. You Called this Bull Before anyone else. If anyone thinks were just left wingnuts better see this diary. This is why this system actually works. See my sig line.

      We observe, you decide. Kerry/Edwards 04 (just a little late)

      by Tomtech on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:37:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good Work (none)
    Astounding that this is going on, and in a stealth way. As far as I'm concerned, if Bob Graham is involved and concerned, this furthers the legitimacy of this issue.  Kudos Kudos and thanks for this posting
  •  If it is true, my heart is broken (none)
    I believe they do cheat, but to know complete corruption is the order of the day in America - well it would truly break my heart.

    I am willing to hear plausible charges, but this is absolutely heartbreaking to consider.

  •  Hmmm... (none)
    Sure would put a new spin on that there "morals" debate, wouldn't it?

    Would you like a tinfoil beret? Viva L'Amerique!

    by juniper on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 08:54:02 PM PST

  •  Sound like (4.00)
    Sounds like crap to me, but get back to us with some real evidence.

    Any relation to Reg and Jason, Mike?


    •  this is such shit.... (3.71)
      you guys need to lay off the reco button if you can't figure out this is total bunk...  c'mon guys--

      my bullshit detector is currently hitting 11, not 10, but 11...  

      •  Yeah (3.66)
        How do diaries this obviously lame get recommended? Is the tin foil constituency on this blog really that big? Scary.
        •  I recommended this because... (none)
          I think we need to keep this issue out there, even if there is little credibility in a writeup. So I recommend almost every vote-counting-fraud topic that appears (unless it's already been recommended).  
          •  We risk more harm than good. (4.00)
            I understand your motivation, but putting any random stuff on the main page (the effect of recommending a diary) seriously hurts the whole effort.  Our case must be made with prosecutable evidence that will hold up in the inevitable court battles, not letters written by cranks with initials vaguely similar to a Senators.
        •  Why does anyone (3.00)
          insist on pissing on any and every discussion of possible voter fraud and demeaning those who want to talk about it?  Is there some hidden motive?

          The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

          by mikepridmore on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:10:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  it's hard on us that are responsible (none)
            It gets a little hard emotionally to think there's some evidence of fraud only to find out each story goes back to the same allegations which so far seem to lack support.
            •  No kidding (none)
              This is actually a pretty serious battle developing between the Reality Based Bloggers and the Tin Foil Bloggers.

              The TF Bloggers are zealous in throwing up and recommending any two-bit email they run across (current case in point being the most egregious) that "proves" fraud.

              When it is delicately (or not so delicately) pointed out that the email is a complete crock, we devolve into weird accusations that basically say half of DKos visitors are in bed with Karl Rove because they "refuse to see" the fraud (or worse yet, are willingly suppressing it on Karl's orders).

              It's like a bad Monty Python skit but really quite worse. There are many days when I seriously think of skipping DKos now because I know half the recommended diaries are going to be peaons to Bev Harris or ridiculous fraud spam posts.

              But ... I refuse to let the Tin Foil Bloggers take over. Reality must triumph!

              •  Of this I am sure (none)
                I would never get in bed with Karl.

                Also, while I land on the reality side 99% of the time, I think if you don't have at least one TFH theory of your own, deep in the back of your mind, you're just not using the old noggin'. You know: "What if???"
                Sometimes (okay, rarely, but sometimes) they turn out to be true.

              •  Calling people Tin Foil Bloggers (none)
                is an insult to your own intelligence.

                Unless it's in the spirit of humor of course. But that's not how you mean it is it?

                You're juxtaposing tinfoilers with reality-based and that's certainly not the spirit in which the reality-based thing arose either.

                I was so adament about Mike removing the bogus letters diary that I even dedicated a whole diary to it. But I am deeply suspicious of the election. As are many, many highly rational people.

                My suspicions are based on hard cold facts. Since exit polls have been conducted in federal elections, they have never been off like these were. Never. Even Dick Morris suspected fraud.

                In Florida in 2000, Jeb and Kate broke the law and deliberately purged tens of thousands of black voters from the voter rolls. This just demonstrates that they are corrupt and nothing is beneath them.

                The votes were counted in secret on central computer servers hooked up to modems. Now, that may not seem such a big deal to you.

                But if I told you that that this server that is accessed by thousands of elections people, Republicans and Democrats alike, also had your checking account on it, how would you feel about that?

                And what if your balance continued to be off by about somewhere between 5% and 15%? And coincidentally, it was always off by a lesser amount than you thought you should have had? Never more.

                What would you do to find out what was going on and possibly get your money back?

                How would you feel if your bank told you you could no longer get a reciept on your deposits and if there's a discrepency in the balance, well, move on and live for another payday?

                And how would you feel if the last $100 in your account that turned up missing was supposed to go to feeding your children?

                That's how the real reality-based community  feels about this election.

                "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." George Bush

                by TocqueDeville on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 12:41:42 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Denial (none)
            many don't want to believe we lost the election and are in denial, others want to believe they live in a functioning democracy, and are in denial about the existence of widespread fraud.  We have here, gentlemen, is a classic case of dualling denials.  

            The M.O. described in this diary is entirely consistent with the bits of evidence that have been popping up, and with the statistical anomalies showing a pattern that looks like vote switching.  Also, recall that in the Dem. primary, there were some now familiar "glitches" caught that dumped all Reno votes to McBride.  Under the scenario described above, one might guess that these glitches were typos by one of the BushYouth junior thuglets who did the hacking, which resulted in too large a number of votes being moved/added to Bush.

            •  Reality-based vs tin foil hat based, ok, if (none)
              You agree with the doctors that laughed at the first doctor that washed his hands between patients.
              You agree with the doctors that laughed at the doctor that theorized ulcers are caused by viruses.
              You agree with the dentists that say putting mercury in your mouth and them working with liquid mercury is harmless.

              I guess I'm saying we've got Conventional Wisdom vs Theory.

              Particularly telling is this link which shows some really suspicious numbers in North Carolina-note how the numbers for absentee vs polling day match within 0.5% for most races-except for Senate-off by almost 3% and President-off by 4.4%.

              No more faith-based electronic voting machines:

              by doug r on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:41:26 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  that's hilarious (none)
            hidden motive?  You mean, like a conspiracy?

            when you make an allegation and present it as fact, and then we find out it is not a fact, then you don't have much grounds to complain about our reaction.

          •  high stakes here (none)
            I like what you write usually. Nothing personal here from me. But if ~ a million people read any claim that appears overstated any accurate evidence can be discredited.
            And that letter is lame. It may not be Rove, could be a 14 year old boy. But it isn't helpful, that's all.
            I didn't see anything demeaning to you. The media demeans the whole topic but their attention spans are 3 seconds and they are over the election.
            But they are over Iraq apparently too given the quality of the coverage Fallujah is getting. What's next now that the Peterson trial is over?
        •  wishful thinking in the "reality-based" (none)
          It does make one wonder if the "reality-based" community has plenty of wishful thinking--albeit a different flavor of "wishful thinking" than the Bushies.
          •  are y'all for real?????? (none)
            please please tell me how recommending obviously fraudulent and amateurish 'evidence' benefits any of us?????  if anyone really think this letter is from bob graham, well, they're just out and out stupid.  ('naive' is too nice a phrase in this particular situation...)

            fraud did potentially occur in this election.  i haven't dismissed this possibility by any stretch of the imagination.  but cluttering the playing field with SHIT like this does nothing, but hurt the search for truth.  jesus...

        •  Man, this makes the tinfoilers look like CPAs (none)

          "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." George Bush

          by TocqueDeville on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:56:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes the (none)
      Pridmores of motorcycle fame are distant relations.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 08:59:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  "juvenile delinquents"? (3.50)
    The scheme used computers at their facilities, an MIS director who trained juvenile delinquents under custody as well as others to hack into Diebold systems around the country and place software kernels that would raise votes for one candidate while deleting the others.

    Hmmm. Claiming that the computers were hacked by "juvenile dellinquents" sets off my tin-foil hat detector. Why trust JDs when you get more compotent and knowlegable rabid volunteers.

  •  I don't put any weight on this at all. (3.50)
    But if there's any truth to that and all of those folks are investigated, we'll hear soon enough. No need to speculate on something that is completely unverifiable.
  •  Hey this is not credible (3.75)
    C'mon, even Thom Hartmann apologizes for wasting our time with this Fisher guy:

    "Congressional candidate Fisher continues to insist that he has proof, and has now turned it over to the FBI, but has been unable to provide me with what I would consider credible evidence."
    •  In all fairness... (none)
      in that article, Hartmann also adds:

      "To the extent that some people thought, based on the first in-error version of my story, that a smoking gun of voting fraud had definitely been found and have now become skeptical and thus may abandon efforts at real investigation or reform, is a tragedy, for which I take full responsibility.

      To the extent that this issue has been raised, and is being pursued by many, this episode may well turn out to be a good thing. Some very interesting rocks are being overturned, and there is new energy behind Rush Holt's bill to force greater transparency for electronic voting."

      Would you like a tinfoil beret? Viva L'Amerique!

      by juniper on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:16:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  no way (none)
    This doesn't sound like bob graham at all. And from what I understand from people who live where fisher was running, the man had quite a few loose screws.

    I'd love to believe it too, but this man's tin foil hat puts mine to shame.

  •  Would be great if it were true.. (none)
    As I posted on the other thread regarding this ....I would be THRILLED if this was for real, I just can't buy it at this point.

    Why would the letter be released now before anything firm is done? I wouldn't take this any further until you are able verify where it came from in the very least.

    •  Not Bob Graham (none)
      That cannot be Senator Bob Graham. It might be a different guy named Bob Graham that works at Office Depot or something but I seriously doubt Sen. Graham would be touting his work w/ grassroots organizations and poll monitoring. ;)

      The story itself seems so outrageous. Would be amazing if it were true but unless they can prove it with this alleged Deepthroat that's in hiding I can't buy it (yet).

      But I still enjoyed reading this. You should edit the title though (there's no way it's Sen. Graham).

    •  sorry (none)
      meant to reply to original post, sorry!
  •  Do I have to use Reynold's wrap? (none)
    Or will generic do?  Shiny side in or out?  Does it have to cover my ears?

    If this was written by Sen. Bob Graham, I'm Condi Rice.

  •  This needs to go away, fast. (3.50)
    Maybe Fisher is an odd cat who just happens to have stumbled upon some amazing facts, but this thing stinks to heaven.  Everybody debunk it now, before it gets used to discredit fraud claims.

    The BBV site has nothing about it either.  Bob Graham is pathologically meticulous; no way he would type that many typos. Also, "Bob G" says he worked on the Edwards for President campaign. Bob Graham ran for President, and did not, to my knowledge, endorse Edwards.  

    We're all emotional now, but let's show the perusadable people out there that we don'r let emotion trump reason, and that we aren't afraid to acknowledge when someone is "our camp" is telling fishy stories.

    •  Agreed get away fast (none)
      This is Bull to give Fishers actual investigation some bad publicity. I see it coming when someone actually takes this mainstream they will pull this out and try to make it the story.

      We observe, you decide. Kerry/Edwards 04 (just a little late)

      by Tomtech on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:24:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nader is on board!! (none)
    Florida investigation and massive recount (

    Looks like our hard efforts paid off, even though we're no closer to figuring out how the hackers used wireless interface to hack the tabulators. An official Florida recount, along with the Audit, is underway.

    From Jeff Fisher's site

    "Kevin Zeese, Ralph Nader's media spokesman, officially announced that Presidential Candidate Ralph Nader will be consulting with Jeff Fisher and Jan Schneider regarding the investigation of voter fraud and a statewide recount for the state of Florida. Jan Schneider was the Democratic candidate for Florida's 13th Congressional District in 2002 and 2004 vs former Florida Secretary of State, Katherine Harris. link

    For those who can't remember the name, Jeff Fisher is the one who uncovered this story mentioned in the now "famous" Commondreams article Evidence Mounts That The Vote May Have Been Hacked

    Hacker schools on Florida ?

    Bay Point School is a juvenile correctional facility in the Miami area. Information has been given to the Washington Post that the Miami school is a suspected training ground in computer science and programming for juvenile delinquents who have trained in the art of manipulating electronic voting, without a true audit trail. It is believed that this activity is taking place not only there but in several schools like the aforementioned one nationwide. If true, then Bay Point School could be the Florida connection." It is possible as many as six states election results have been altered by recruits from this school

    What's theoretical about it ??!?

    by lawnorder on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:18:30 PM PST

    • says nothing about this. (none)
      We need to stay AWAY from this Fisher guy until independent evidence comes to light.

      I know people who have bipolar disorder.  This stuff sounds familiar.  Jesus, mainstream media are starting to take election fraud seriously, and there is a fine diary in the Recommendeds that links to an essay by a dean at Yale Law who is suspicious of the election. And bow this?  Step.Away.Now. Maybe there is something to it; if there is, I'm sure the erstwhile Mt. Fisher will show us the hard evidence.

      Again: Step.Away.Now.

  •  This diary is now #1 (none)
    as of midnight 11/15-16 Eastern time.  Could we please have an "unrecommend" function?  Maybe just for 'trusted users' or some such.
  •  Serves a purpose... (none)
    while it certainly appears like hokum, I did recommend, because the submission of this type of item, in the current climate, and the "peer review" that will follow, are important.

    The dKos community is totally capable of assessing this type of info and forming a "reality-based" conclusion [though it may take a few dozen posts to get their.]

    Besides, there was more name-dropping in those two "letters" than I've seen since the SNL send-up of Kerry in the last debate.  If this has any legs, well then Graham, 60 Minutes, More, et. al. are on the case, so I guess we can all rest easy. No way that crew would let this mystery go unsolved.

    I'm suprised Shaggy, Scooby and Thelma haven't shown up yet in the "Mystery Machine"...

  •  You know, (none)
    the closer we get to really looking into the possibility of this kind of conspiracy, the more shaken I become.  

    I know I would like to find that Kerry actually won this election (like I know Gore won in 2000)....however, this is getting scary.  

    I realize that I have been operating for my 52 years as an American with a certain grounding.  Grounding in faith in our democracy.  Grounding in the idea that the truth will be respected by all.  Grounding in everyone's respect for the idea that no matter how hard fought campaigns get, there are certain lines we just don't cross.  Recently I have been feeling that the ground I have been standing upon, counting on to be solid, is being shaken and the rules just don't appy any more....and THAT is difficult to fathom.

    Do we need to look into the possibility of such disheartening fraud?  Absolutely.  But, at my core, I am dismayed and disappointed that we have come to this.  That there is a very real possibility that our democracy, decency, sense of fairness and the foundation of our community has been stolen from under our trusting noses.  This is a very sad day.

    But, yes.  Turn over the rock and see what is there.  We must.  But I, for one, will weep if I find that we have been so carelessly betrayed.

    Progressive values are human values. We are all in this together.

    by NYBri on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:27:45 PM PST

  •  If a site manager who had been bribed by BC '04 (none)
    to suppress Jeff Fisher's heroic efforts at discovering the truth were to delete this diary, would any of us be upset:-)?
  •  I really think this diary should (4.00)
    be deleted, Mike.

    Putting forward unsubstantiated info can only hurt the investigation into  voting irregularities/fraud.

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. Mohandas Gandhi

    by boadicea on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:33:52 PM PST

    •  I second that (none)
      This isn't credible and needs to be removed.  What is up with Fisher?  He is really out there.

      When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

      by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:39:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Pass the cookies (none)
      While we're here having this nice chat...

      Neiman-Marcus Chocolate Chip Cookies


      1/2 cup (1 stick) butter, softened
      1 cup light brown sugar
      3 tablespoons granulated sugar
      1 large egg
      2 teaspoons vanilla extract
      1-3/4 cups all purpose flour
      1/2 teaspoon baking powder
      1/2 teaspoon baking soda
      1/2 teaspoon salt
      1-1/2 teaspoons instant espresso coffee powder
      1-1/2 cups semi-sweet chocolate chips


      1. Preheat oven to 300 degrees. Cream the butter with the sugars using an electric mixer on medium speed until fluffy (approximately 30 seconds)

      2. Beat in the egg and the vanilla extract for another 30 seconds.

      3. In a mixing bowl, sift together the dry ingredients and beat into the butter mixture at low speed for about 15 seconds. Stir in the espresso coffee powder and chocolate chips.

      4. Using a 1 ounce scoop or a 2 tablespoon measure, drop cookie dough onto a greased cookie sheet about 3 inches apart. Gently press down on the dough with the back of a spoon to spread out into a 2 inch circle. Bake for about 20 minutes or until nicely browned around the edges. Bake a little longer for a crispier cookie.

      Yield:  2 dozen cookies

      "If you want to say, 'Hey! Look at me! I wrote a sentence!' take up graffiti."

      by Aragorn for America on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:49:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Isn't this the same information (none)
    That he has been saying for a while now??? The easiest thing to do would just get the phone record for the time span...I would ignore this due the allogations have been floating around...if it were true it would have been all over...

    I agree with an earlier comment that juveniles would not be very safe to use... sure they may be good with computers... but they like to brag. And no way was that letter written by a Senator...

    Need to get off this one...I hope that is not what Bev is down there doing...I hope she is smarter than that.

    "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." -Martin Luther King, Jr. _______ "We will not be silent." -Howard Dean

    by jigsaw68 on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:36:03 PM PST

    •  I don't think this is valid (none)
      But if they wanted to use juveniles they could just tell them that they were updating the machines with a software update.


      When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

      by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:33:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  How many people are watching this site? (none)
    As soon as this diary was posted I couldn't get Kos to load for over 2 minutes.  What the heck happened that pushed traffic thru the roof?

    When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

    by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:37:25 PM PST

  •  Fisher is sloppy as hell (none)
    Everyone agrees. There's no way to believe this. Let's just hope it's so sloppy because he put it on his site himself.

    I say we just take it for face value and proceed as normal. If it is real, it'll come out. If it's not, Fisher deserves to be put in a juvenile facility himself.

  •  Limburger? (none)
    Doesn't even pass the smell test. The "details" show that the author doesn't have very good technical knowledge about how the system works, and can't spell. I'd put big money on this being a big fat hoax, and the idea that Bob Graham wrote this is an absuridty of the highest order.

    Now, this being a hoax doesn't mean there hasn't been fraud, but this is not the kind of thing I would allow anyone to invest their hopes in.

    -- Want to make a difference? Join the taskforce! --

    by fwiffo on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:41:35 PM PST

    •  Besides. . . (none)
      If it was Bob Graham, it'd be a kind-of tedious accounting of events, along with a minute-by-minute accounting of snacks, bowel movements, and the like.  He's a painfully careful record-keeper in that regard, you know.
      •  lol. true. it is totally non Grahamish. (none)







        [Addendum: i still thoroughly believe we may - soon - get a smoking gun of this magnitude. This one, it's a pop gun.]

  •  Oy, (none)

    Please, this is stupid.  Almost funny, even.  Pass the stroodle.

    •  Yeah... (none)
      I like the part about the memos.  I'm just envisioning a meeting of people in suits talking about stealing an election, and one saying "Bob, did you get the memo on how many votes to switch in Ohio".  Memos.  Good grief.  
  •  Jeff Fisher got this from the dem underground.... (none)
    and we know just how reliable they are, they aren't.  Bob G has enough sway to get himself on the air on msnbc or cnn and if this was an issue for him he'd have been on tv talking about it.

    Whatever exists will, sooner or later, be turned inside out.

    by jbou on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:45:18 PM PST

  •  This letter is a hoax. (none)
    "Someone I trust" is not good enough. How do you know it wasn't a chain letter that sends itself out without any assistance? Or what if they were gullible?

    Also, the information in the letter does not check out. See my diary for more details.

  •  and another thing... (none)
    the thread on DU where the letter was supposed to have originated now does not include the letter.

    Whatever exists will, sooner or later, be turned inside out.

    by jbou on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:49:55 PM PST

  •  Leave The Diary (none)
    Post it! Advertise it! Within 2 minutes questions were arrising and within 5 minutes someone had great evidence of fake. This is designed to keep us away from Jeff Fisher. I say support Fisher. He seems to be the first politician to actually say something on the record and I have seen some better evidence for this school story in a previous diary. My personal belief is this is designed as "proof" the school story is cooked. I smell a rat named Rove and I wanna rave. Whenever the wingnut media has to discuss the Fisher evidence this will be their "proof" it is bull.

    We observe, you decide. Kerry/Edwards 04 (just a little late)

    by Tomtech on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:50:42 PM PST

    •  This is designed by Jeff Fisher (none)
      The letters are on Jeff Fisher's website. The Harris letter repeats Fisher's nutty claims about Floridan juvenile delinquents being taught to hack into Diebold machines. They're not designed to "keep us away" from him, but rather something he's pushing for reasons best known to him. Maybe he actually believes in his nonsense.

      (Yes, it's nonsense. Why, for the love of FDR, would anyone pick such unreliable accomplices? Does Fisher understand that teaching kids to hack into computers takes more time than simply hacking into the computers yourself? Probably not - nothing in his website suggests that he understands computers.)

      "I don't understand 'proving to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons.'" -- Condi

      by Fleischer on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:05:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks (none)
        I didn't realize this was on Fishers Website untill to late. I still hink the SCLM will jump on the camels and virgins if Fisher tries to get some major attention.

        We observe, you decide. Kerry/Edwards 04 (just a little late)

        by Tomtech on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:56:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Okay, I'll come clean . . . (none)
    . . . My initials are RG and I once lived in North Carolina.


    Dean Democrat for Kerry

    by Rita in DC on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 09:51:24 PM PST

  •  Will the Author of the Diary (3.50)
    agree to change the diary's title to something more appropriate?  E.g.  'New Vote Fraud Claims from Jeff Fisher's website'.  Also, how about nixing claims that Sen. Graham actually wrote this letter until corraboration can be made.  Not saying you can't go back and update it, but please don't oversell your story.

    More truth in advertising is necessary in diary titles.  If the content is not sufficient to get attention on its own without a misleading diary title, then it probably doesn't need to be posted.  The screaming headlines are detrimental to communication:

    I mean, if someone comes along and has a well-sourced report about actual fraud, how are they supposed to be noticed?  

    I know that others have likey made similar comments, but I think it bears repeating.  

  •  This story smells rotten... (none)
    .. but its interesting to note that Jebbie visited Bay Point Schools in 2003.

    And I agree with the 'fix the diary's mention of Graham' line of thought.

    (first post, sorry)

  •  Sounds kooky, but so did Watergate (none)
    I read about Fischer waiting for the FBI to arrive just after the election. If there was anything to this, seems there would be something more substantial known by now. I assumed that the school was a voting place and a few machines malfunctioned. Using JDs to rig an election makes no sense whatsoever. Everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath. We definitely need to have paper audit trails. Until then, I'm voting absentee. Back in the good ol' days, politicians voted "the graveyard," or just tossed ballots in ditches. I find it hard to believe that this never happens today. Many people maintain that the 1960 election was bought in W. Va. by Joe Kennedy, or was it Chicago with Mayor Daley? Anyway, voter fraud isn't new.  Blackbox voting machines with inferior security just make it cleaner and easier.
  •  I agree a title change is needed (none)
    I would go as far as leaing out the fraud too... new claims from Jeff Fisher... actually they are not new... so maybe More from Jeff Fisher...

    I would agree also that this does not belong on the top of reccomended.....

    I sincerely hope that is not what Bev Harris is doing down there...

    "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." -Martin Luther King, Jr. _______ "We will not be silent." -Howard Dean

    by jigsaw68 on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:12:25 PM PST

  •  I am still the one furthest out in believing (4.00)
    fraud is there, but this diary scares the hell out of me. It stinks of a plant, it is the wet dream of smoking gun evidence, served up predigested so even the simplest press mind can follow it, in a way NO ONE, seriously invesigating would phrase anything, and with NO PRIMARY sources that I see, so not even an attempt at providing a trail to independantly verify it.

    If we bite, then we do discredit ourselves, and if this even hints at reaching the mainstream press as poorly constructed as it is all similar evidence is FOREVER tainted, even if EVERY WORD ultimatly turns out to be true.

    Remember 60 minuets? Conveniently lost in proving the validity of the source for their documents, was the fact that Bush's peopel OPENLY admitted the accusations made where substantially true, and the documents simply REPEAT what other contemporanious documents already said.

    But, because the SOURCE for CBS, not the contents of the documents, but the proof of how CBS obtained them, the whole episode discredited CBS and the VERY real documents THAT ACCUSE BUSH OF being AWOL. The whole topic was discredited, and blotted from even being mentioned, becuase the THUGS slited a copy of the smoking gun though dubious channels.

    I think the same thing is going on here. "Evidence" has been planted, that when it is published can easily be discredited, in such a way that any evidence, no matter HOW WELL DOCUMENTED, will never be picked up by a press gun shy from the beating they will get from this piece.

    Publish this and the fraud story is dead, FOREVER, no matter WHAT EVIDENCE TURNS UP.

    Wrong time, wrong war, WRONG PRESIDENT!

    by Mr Tek on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:13:41 PM PST

    •  Here's a tinfoil theory for you (none)
      The CBS memogate was a plant by Rove to humiliate a fine news organization as payback (remember the Richard Clarke interview?) and to keep any other "news" organizations from going out on a limb on a "smelly fish" story like this one.

      No more faith-based electronic voting machines:

      by doug r on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:50:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  So separate the wheat from the chaff (none)
      Like the CBS memo, there is some element of the truth that will be masked and protected by the obvious missed facts. They talk about hacking in and modifying the scanners and touch voting machines, and give a location and a nutty JD scenario. Which are plausible?
      The best possibility for hacking the vote comes not in the scanners and touch screens, but in the tabulators they report to, so what they hacked is disprovable.  I suspect that JDs could avoid being prosecuted as adults, and that some fraction of them could probably teach any FL computer teacher a thing or 2.. it still seems over the top, and irrelevant.
      Also, does anyone think that we are taking ourselves a little too seriously when we suggest a diary must be deleted because it will undermine our credibility. Please. Our credibility is established by letting diaries stay up, and turn into fora for debate. Does anyone think that the headlines here are so influential that content that contradicts them is ignored?

    'Scuse me.  Hairball.

  •  If i were a republican and wanted to have some fun (none)
    ... i would send a letter like this to Jeff Fisher. I mean COME ON! All that happened was some wise-ass republican heard about all the election fraud talk on the blogs, and subsequently copied/pasted one set of intriguing but not damning data and sent if off to Jeff "hook-in-the" Fisher. I think something fishy (i swear that one wasn't on purpose) might have happened in this election, but this has got to be the weakest evidence i've seen thus far. This letter reaks of unprofressionalism and a prank. I think Jeff Fisher has been taken for a ride here, and unfortunately we're hanging onto his coattails.

    I really hope i'm wrong, but i just can't see how this passes the BS test in any way. Misspelings, incorrect information, and the over the top praising of Bev Harris at the end? I think someone's having fun with us...

  •  Ummm (none)
    I think Senator Bob Graham would be aware that Erskine Bowles LOST his Senatorial election and is not now and never has been a "Senator."


    "Deserves got nothing to do with it"-William Munny, "Unforgiven"

    by GDoyle on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:21:24 PM PST

  •  Could be true. . . . (none)
    so let's put it on hold and see what develops--before smashing it to smithereens.  No need to take sides on this one.  If it's true it will soon be made public, and if it's not true, why waste our breath.  

    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:23:08 PM PST

  •  Who the fuck is Senator Bowles...? (none)
    Sorry, this smells like pure bullshit to me.


    Mitch Gore

    Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

    by Lestatdelc on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:45:03 PM PST

  •  Three Diaries??? (none)
    Now there are three separate diaries about this... this one.. the one saying hoax... and one about the letter to Bev.................

    So in the recommended section... two diaries got bumped for this subject... and this is what people just popping in for a look at Kos will see............

    Sorry but it does nothing for any credibility...yes sounds like a joke on Jeff....You think that he would have asked Graham before using his name like that...

    This topic needs to die a quick death... bring it back when there is anymore than Fisher's letters as "proof"

    "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." -Martin Luther King, Jr. _______ "We will not be silent." -Howard Dean

    by jigsaw68 on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:45:18 PM PST

    •  The letters (none)
      on the Fisher site don't actually even claim to be from Bob Graham.  I got an e-mail from a friend who said they were from Bob Graham, but the site itself makes no such claim.

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:51:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  One the one hand... (none)
    On one hand we have suspected there is fraud, and frantically search for it daily. So I ask: Why would Congressman Jeff lie? He knows Florida and it;s characters. Why are Repubs fleeing the administration, shushing the "mandate" talk, looking nervous, and being hospitalized for heart palpitations, family and  beneficiaries claiming alzheimer's, or in other countries?

    Also: regarding the punctuation errors: I just got an email from a Cornell University Professor of Political Dynamics and he had many typos. It was shocking really, so I don't think bad grammar means anything about the author. I shall call the phone number for my own interview.

    On the other hand it seems a little over the top - like what we have been looking for, and though some of it checks out: cell phone numbers, names, some substantial facts when it's right in your lap it's hard to accept. Is it necessary to leak this online at present, and why would one?

    More importantly: What if this issue does need a megaphone. What if it's not getting the coverage it needs? I have posted a link to the letter on my blog to that end, and shall make no assumptions for the reader.


    theorist and proud

    by a lynn on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 10:50:10 PM PST

  •  This is embarrasing (4.00)
    Really, You guys are doing a great job of discrediting this community. Keep it up. Piss away everything we've built the last two years in a fit of blind rage.

    So "r.g. in North Carolina" becomes Sen. Bob Graham. Nice...

    Some of you want to believe SO FUCKING BADLY that this thing was stolen that you'll jump on anything that smells even remotely like proof. And then you drive this diary to the top slot on Recommended Diaries.

    A fucking joke. I don't think I've ever been more disappointed during my tenure at this site. It's probably a good thing I'm going on vacation on Wednesday. I'm feeling mean right now.

    •  err? (none)
      I am not in a rage. I want to know more. I have not heard anything to substantiate or discredit this.

      Why are you in an uproar? I don;t need to be part of this community if posting here get me lashed.

      theorist and proud

      by a lynn on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 11:28:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  He's right (none)
        This story isn't credible and needs to be pulled.  

        When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

        by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 11:34:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  how? (none)
          how is it not credible?

          theorist and proud

          by a lynn on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 11:46:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well (none)
            I find it very hard to believe that Sen. Graham wrote this.  He is published author and this letter just isn't his style.  Also, he is a Florida senator and the author of this letter claims to be from NC.  The list goes on and on.

            At first I got really excited that we might have something - but this doesn't pass the smell test; just look at all the people questioning it.  

            When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

            by sgilman on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 11:54:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  and? (none)
              Do you have another letter of Graham's to compare to show us?

              The amount of people who believe it one way or another does not equal an empirical fact.

              I don;t know about the NC, but I would like to.

              theorist and proud

              by a lynn on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 12:01:39 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  can you (none)
              direct me to another of the senator's letter to compare.

              can you be specific about on and on?

              theorist and proud

              by a lynn on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 12:07:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  The diary as it currently (none)
              is doesnt even say the letters are from Bob Graham and the Fisher site doesn't either.  I got an e-mail saying that they were and mistakenly said that when I first wrote the diary.  As it is written now the diary clearly states that RG might not be Bob Graham.

              The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

              by mikepridmore on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 12:12:03 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  i don't understand (none)
                how this can be dismissed out of hand.

                I think being skeptical is wise, but I have yet to see it proven wrong.

                I did a bio on Mel Sembler in one diary and every fact in the letter appears valid down to his campaign contributions, and his appointment.

                There is a school by that name with a computer arts facility.

                I believe the main question is the link between this and the electronic voting software. You must prove a connection and access.

                theorist and proud

                by a lynn on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 12:24:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  i didn't deserve that (none) get cussed at, or accused of blindness for asking questions about an election fraud letter.

      i don't want to be part of dailyKOS anymore.

      the last two laborious sessions of research i have done consisting of 60 hgours work and posting quotes from Kenneth Blackwell Nov 1st - Nov 9th, and my interview with Walter Mebane of Cornell University about the Dixiecrat phenomena were all but igbored here.

      and kos do you know something concrete or substantial? is it your perogative to censor discussions? great.

      theorist and proud

      by a lynn on Mon Nov 15, 2004 at 11:52:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Did you pull this diary? (none)
      Since you are in charge of the process here: the relevant question is: Did you pull this diary?

      It has become increasingly evident over the last two weeks that there is a conflict of interest emerging between "the Community" on here and your other activities, dem. consulting and the PAC, which seem to lead to a desire to keep the site "sanitized", so as to avoid giving opponents an opening.

      This conflict of interest (previously potential , now actual) merits thorough discussion.

      Meanwhile the question stands: Was this diary pulled? And if so, what is the explanation?

      •  I agree with you (none)
        I would like to know what is pulled and why. I am a great advocate of open discussion as a fundamental of our democracy.

        Beyond that - this topic interests me a great deal and warrants, I feel, open discussion.

        theorist and proud

        by a lynn on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 10:49:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  PAC vs. Community (none)
          I have a diary on the subject today, which sank without a trace. Partly, I think, because the timing is not right for a reasonably detached discussion of the subject matter. Best to wait how things look in early December... The conflict of interest between PAC and community won't go away that's for sure.

          Now I didn't mention the pulled diaries in my diary, because I didn't want to inflame things further. But it's clear that silently pulling diaries compromises the integrity of the site.

          •  I decided to (none)
            email my concerns for clarification on the editing of lists, or any content concerns of dailyKOS administrators.

            I tried to find information in the FAQs but could not.

            I am really grateful for this community of Kossettes, and just want to know more. Currently, I assume of course, that the reason we are all here expelling our time is because we want to achieve good things.

            That is definately a great thing.

            theorist and proud

            by a lynn on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 02:38:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Aiming for Good Things (none)
              Please keep me posted if you find out what the explanation is.
              Indeed: good things is what we all aim for. (Even those of us who are Kossets rather than Kossettes).
              •  I shall (none)
                I just posted the story to Amy Goodman's Democracy Now. I have a list of other alternative media to contact as well.

                Hopefully we can begin to see some movement, and analysis on the matter.

                theorist and proud

                by a lynn on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 03:20:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  on the posting (none)
                  - oops I menat to say I was posting this diary topic and links to Democracy Now.

                  I will contact you when I get Kos admin clarification. Perhaps we can set rules in the FAQs if there are content concerns?

                  squeezes kosset

                  theorist and proud

                  by a lynn on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 03:22:47 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Bits of truth perhaps. true story - unconvincing (none)
    a few interesting google bits - BayPoint Schools does exist, and is for troubled teens - but doesn't update their website much - as the school calendar goes up to June 2004. If someone is teaching these kids to hack elections in November - wouldn't their website at least be competent?

    Joseph Klock (scroll down a bit), Miami lawyer who represented Katherine Harris during 2000, is  chairman of the school's board, and doing pro-bono legal work defending teenagers arrested for armed robbery and burglary. On the plausibility meter - if he ran into a really smart hacker kid, that kid might have convinced him that he could fix the election for him - and since he's already partisan enough to want that to happen, and since he'd figure the kid would never be believed if he talked - he might have gone for it. BUT if the fix was in for the 2000 election - wouldn't they have made sure that Bush actually WON?

    This doesn't pass the duck test - it spells like a fraud, looks like a fraud, etc.

    I just can't understand why it's linked to a real candidate's website. Is Jeff Fisher really that gullible? Or has he in fact seen more convincing evidence than this unimpressive letter?

    Don't freak out - don't yell at the original dKos poster, but hope that real evidence is forthcoming.

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