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A self described Republican, who makes his living as a "white hat" security hacker, easily hacked Diebold's system, and states he'd be surprised if this election wasn't hacked.

What I found truly shocked me, and made me physically ill.  That's what is documented on the other page. It IS that bad. I personally don't have conclusive evidence that voter fraud was perpetrated, but I can tell you as an Information Security professional that it would have been very, very easy to do.

and he goes on to say how crooked the company is...

Check this out - No less than 5 of Diebold's developers are convicted felons, including Senior Vice President Jeff Dean, and topping the list are his twenty-three counts of felony Theft in the First Degree. According to the findings of fact in case no. 89-1-04034-1

Check out his site

(Thanks to someone on the openthread for the link)

Originally posted to nowness on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 07:57 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Anonymous Hacker (none)
    i can imagine that giving one's name would be a problem. but who is this hacker?

    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.

    by southlib on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 08:00:25 PM PST

  •  It would be great to (4.00)
    get this guy on "Countdown" with KO! Has anyone done this already? If not, I will.

    He that is of the opinion money will do everything may well be suspected of doing everything for money--Benjamin Franklin

    by rcvanoz on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 08:05:16 PM PST

  •  Disgraceful (4.00)
    According to this hacker's website the VP in question and his underlings were convicted of felonies where:

    "the crimes and their cover-up involved a high degree of sophistication and planning in the use and alteration of records in the computerized accounting system that defendant maintained for the victim, and the defendant used his position of trust and fiduciary responsibility as a computer systems and accounting consultant for the victim to facilitate the commission of the offenses."

    To sum up, he was convicted of 23 felony counts of theft from by - get this - planting back doors in his software and using a "high degree of sophistication" to evade detection. "

    Now think of the bullshit the NCLB law has required of teachers to be certified as "highly qualified" to teach children" (special ed teachers may have to be certified in each of the subject areas they provide instruction - effectively causing even more shortages in a field that is already understaffed).

    Does anyone have independent corroboration of these allegations. If true it is disgraceful (of couse the Repugs want DeLay in charge even if it means behind a jail cell)/

    "Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." (T. Paine)

    by dmmteacher on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 08:08:16 PM PST

    •  Independent confirmation? (4.00)
      Try this:

      http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0312/S00191.htm

      Jeffrey Dean, when released from prison, had $87 in his inmate account. He was ordered to pay $385,227 in restitution for his embezzlements. For most of us, this would be a crushing financial blow, and we would find it difficult to bankroll a business, yet somehow Dean (and his wife, Deborah M. Dean) managed to become the owners of Spectrum Printing & Mailing. In 2000, Dean's printing and mailing firm was purchased for $1.6 million by Global Election Systems.

      So when we try to find out what software is actually authorized, we get the buffalo shuffle. We've got a cocaine trafficker printing our ballots, an embezzler programming our voting system, and our absentee ballots are being funneled through a private company that hires people straight out of prison.

    •  Failure of Democratic leadership (4.00)
      Isn't it time to let the Democratic leaders know that if they don't speak out in unison about the national disgrace of election fraud, they're going to lose their base, due to a sense of...

      ...futility?

      Why did they not train lawyers to watch the memory cards, according to a dean of Yale Law School?

      Why did they reassure us about thousands and thousands of lawyers and not educate themselves about vote-hacking issues?

      Why did they let crooks control our voting system -- the most precious part of our democracy?  

      In Florida, these same felons could not even vote!

      •  Indeed (none)
        Yes - colossal failure here.
      •  There's a problem here (none)
        in that Democrats are politicians too.  The moment you come out and say that the election was rigged is the moment you call into question the validity of your own position.
        •  It's the generation gap... (none)
          ...not the credibility gap that's the problem.

          These older, computer-unsavvy politicians simply don't understand how the vote could be hacked.

          Or maybe they're just in denial.

          Either way, it will happen again in 2006, and again in 2008, until older politicians catch up with technology.

          If anyone out there has a parent who's a Democratic leader still typing on an Underwood, could you please educate them?

    •  Well, why not? (none)
      Shocking, but not, as in: Here we go again!

      BushCo gets IranContra Crooks to run FP, and not in East Jabip, but in the crucial vulnerable area of Mideast ... Christian Fundies like Elliot Abrams, fucks like Negroponte.

      He asks SECRECY-Coup-Meister, Kissinger, to head the 911 'investigation' commission,

      and, last but certainly not least, he managed to tap disgraced former heads of prisons who had been charged, indicted, fired re prisoner abuse to be in charge of prisons in Iraq! (The crimes attached to these dudes were the extreme sort that involved torture and death of prisoners, who were guilty of being mentally disturbed and defenseless, not endangering others.)

      Weeee!!! Being in this movie, ruled by the Fascist Crime Family, is a wild ride, indeedy

      (Lucky for us, our Sherlock Press Corps is putting on the brakes, thank the lawd. Hee Haw. Cant even get the weather report, them news hounds baying about election fraud 24/7. Hee Haw.)

  •  felons voting by proxy (4.00)
    So Florida won't let ex-felons vote, but trusts them enough to run our elections system.
    •  In Miami-Dade (none)
      we also like to elect them to major politcal offices. It's a tradition, in fact.
      •  The Republican Party (none)
        The party of the criminal elite.

        The question is, why do so many honest Americans not see this or decide to follow them blindly?

        I swear the Rethugs are divided between cultists and organized crime.

        Like soldiers in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat baby, no surrender!

        by Pescadero Bill on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 06:44:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, but (none)
          if you're talking about Miami politics, you have to figure in the Castro Factor. See, Cubans here hate Kennedy for that Bay of Pigs fiasco. "But that was 40 years ago!", I hear you cry. No matter. They hold a grudge.

          Also, in the 1980s Reagan accepted all of the "wretched refuse" that Castro tossed out of his jails -- making him a near deity in that community. Add a little Reno/Elian to the mix, stir in some good old-fashioned Catholicism and that is why a crooked Republican will always be elected (and sometimes re-elected) over a clean Democrat to office.

          It's wack, really. But if it didn't happen, we'd never be able to enjoy Carl Hiaasen's columns. So you give and take.

  •  I heard about the felons almost a year ago, (4.00)
    and was surprised it never made much traction in the media, or anywhere else for that matter.

    The implications are huge:  

    We've got blatant ease to hack, motive to hack (control of trillions of dollars), and we've got our primary vendor hiring felons for computer fraud, embezzlement and software hi-jinx.  

    And yet, people don't want to believe it could have caused Bush to win.  

    I do believe the tide is turning if Bev has really got something on these Florida folks.

    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 08:50:12 PM PST

    •  Important evidence: (none)
      "PAST BEHAVIOR IS THE BEST PREDICTOR OF FUTURE BEHAIVOR."

      THIS IS THE FIRST PRINCIPLE OF PSYCHOLOGY!

      This must be looked into.  Put it together with the head of the company saying he was committed to getting Ohio in the bush column.

      Makes you sick!

      Four more years of these war criminals in the White House due to these felons at Diebold!

  •  Posted this on Sat 13 Nov 2004... (4.00)
    ...in this dKos diary:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/13/9743/8602

    -----------------------------------------------
    How to hack the vote; a primer (4.00 / 2)

    If someone with CS expertise would like to post it as a Diary, that might be helpful. Or, if someone wants me to post it as a Diary, I'll do it as I have my full quota remaining for 13 Nov 2004. [no one requested that I post it as a diary, so I decided to let it percolate].

    --------------------
    How to Hack the Vote: the Short Version
    11/13/2004

    Chuck Herrin, CISSP, CISA, MCSE, CEH

    http://www.chuckherrin.com

    Author's Note - For anyone who is curious, I have put together this shortened document that will show you exactly how easy it would be to break into Diebold's GEMS software, which is the software used to tabulate regional voting results.  This software runs on regular Windows machines and counts the votes from multiple precincts that may have used touch screens (which have their own problems), optically scanned punch cards, or other balloting methods.  It is responsible for the accurate reporting of tens of millions of votes cast using many different types of ballots.

    That's right - even if you used the older systems like punch cards, your vote can still be Hacked when the numbers all come together.  Wanna see how easy it is?

    http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm
    -------------------------------

    Had some dialogue with with blogger 'lawnorder' in this dKos diary, about this post, as well:

    http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/11/13/17402/292/123#123

    "It's about America" [on life support and in need of immediate, heroic treatment -- 911 call seems to be being answered by many, thankfully; now, let's organize]

    •  Kudos!! Sorry I missed those posts..... (none)
      Thanks to understandinglife and lawnorder!!!
      I just noticed this link today on an openthread, and it really blew me away. The best thing about this guy is he's a Republican (non-partisan). No sour grapes here, just true righteous indignation.
  •  Quick suggestion for title edit (4.00)
    Republican Professional Hacker Disses Diebold Bigtime!

    Great catch, and I'm sending this to my state's Director of Elections.

    We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we now know that it is bad economics. —Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    by Utah for Dean on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 08:58:43 PM PST

  •  um (none)
    I know a bit about computer security as well. This so called 'hacker' greatly exaggerates the risk of the computers being hacked by some random hacker.

    However, the risk of insider attack is real. However, insiders always have the power to cheat when counting ballots, paper or otherwise.

    •  The point he makes... (none)
      is how easy it is to hack, and cover the tracks. Do you really think these are the best systems for vote tabulation?
      I'm not a programmer, but something really stinks about it. I've seen countless computer guru's negative opinions on Diebold all over the net. They really have been trying to warn the public for a long time.
      •  yea (none)
        I get the point. It is valid. I just don't like scare tactics.
        •  I don't know (4.00)
          If you're driving and looking at some blond on the side of the road and and a car pulls out in front of you but you don't see it cause you're looking at the blond and your passenger suddenly yells out, "Watch out!", is that a scare tactic?

          "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." George Bush

          by TocqueDeville on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 09:56:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Scare tactic? (4.00)
            Well, that all depends. Is the blonde a Republican or a Democrat?

            Reminds me of when I was once driving through western Oklahoma when I blew a tire.  Checked the spare and it was flat, too.  Nuts, now I really needed a ride to a tire store somewhere. Stuck out my thumb and the very next car stopped.  Guy asks, "you a Republican or a Democrat?"  I replied, "Democrat."  "Bite me," the guy said, and drove off.

            Another guy stopped a few minutes later.  Same deal.. "you a Republican or a Democrat?"  I say, "Democrat".  He says, "Fuck off!" and roars off in a cloud of dust.

            Finally, a hip convertible driven by a gorgeous young blonde stops and asks the same question.  By this time, I realize that they seem to take their right wing politics pretty seriously out here in Oklahoma, so I decide to play along just to get a ride to the damn tire store. "I'm a proud Republican," I exclaim!  "Well, hop in," says she.

            It was a hot day, and the young woman was very shapely and quite lovely and very soon, with the top down and the wind blowing her skirt ever higher up her thigh, I couldn't take it anymore. I hollered, "Stop the car!! Stop the car!!"  

            She screeched to a halt and I hopped out of the car.  "What's wrong," she asked?

            I said, "I'm sorry, I can't take it. I've  been a Republican for only five minutes and already I want to screw somebody!!"

    •  I dunno about that (none)
      I don't have a Microsoft security certification or anything, but I HAVE reached my Certified Systems Admin in both 2000 and XP, and I don't think Herrin distorts the ease of getting into a Windows computer at all, let alone "greatly."
      Especially since we don't know what patches hotfixes, etc. diebold may or may not have applied. . . .
      the fact that the database is plain text in my opinion shows wanton complicity on the part of diebold. . . .no professional with integrity would design it in such a way.
  •  Someone needs to put all this together, (none)
    and write a "hit-the-media" worthy story of the men behind the curtain. The story about Diebold/ES&S/Seqoia and who owns them, who runs the vote devisions (f'ing brothers!), leaked memos that I haven't seen mentioned in the media, the declaration that Mr. O'Dell will win Bush Ohio, their involement in the Theocratic Reconstruction Movement (forget the official title - and they are organized and well funded - scary shit,) etc. etc.
    •  553 (4.00)
      don't forget that the startup capital for AIS (ES&S parent co.) was largely provided by howard ahmanson.
      •  Aye, (none)
        The guy who got the two brothers into the voting machine business at Diebold and ES&S if I am remembering correctly, the guy who is an outspoken (and involved) Theocrat.
      •  Yea, those people are creeeepy (4.00)
        Read  about them here...

        In the early 1980s, brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich founded ES&S's originator, Data Mark. The brothers Urosevich obtained financing from the far-Right Ahmanson family in 1984, which purchased a 68% ownership stake, according to the Omaha World Herald. After brothers William and Robert Ahmanson infused Data Mark with new capital, the name was changed to American Information Systems (AIS). California newspapers have long documented the Ahmanson family's ties to right-wing evangelical Christian and Republican circles.

        In 2001, the Los Angeles Times reported, ". . . primarily funded by evangelical Christians - particularly the wealthy Ahmanson family of Irvine - the [Discovery] institute's $1-million annual program has produced 25 books, a stream of conferences and more than 100 fellowships for doctoral and postdoctoral research." The chief philanthropists of the Discovery Institute, that pushes creationist science and education in California, are Howard and Roberta Ahmanson.

        According to Group Watch, in the 1980s Howard F. Ahmanson, Jr. was a member of the highly secretive far-Right Council for National Policy, an organization that included Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, Major General John K. Singlaub and other Iran-Contra scandal notables, as well as former Klan members like Richard Shoff. Ahmanson, heir to a savings and loan fortune, is little reported on in the mainstream U.S. press. But, English papers like The Independent are a bit more forthcoming on Ahmanson's politics.


        •  Add to your diary? (none)
          This is so creepy, I suggest you add this boxed quote to the end of your diary, as "Update: Additional Interesting (and Scary) Background info", or something like that.

          W stands for WEAK

          by Winger on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:08:11 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Another quote for your diary (4.00)
          Here's the scariest bit in the page you linked toin your diary.  You might want to add this as an "update / extra info" too, to help publicize these outrageous facts:

          Why do I call Diebold partisan and unethical, you ask?  How's this:

          "I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president." - Walden O'Dell, Diebold's CEO in a fundraising letter to Republicans, Fall 2003.  O'Dell and other Diebold Senior Executives are Republican "Pioneers", which is the designation you get when you raise over $100,000.  His brother is President of ES&S, the #2 vote machine maker, and is also a "Pioneer".  Is that partisan enough for you?  Well, what about calling them unethical?

          Check this out - No less than 5 of Diebold's developers are convicted felons, including Senior Vice President Jeff Dean, and topping the list are his twenty-three counts of felony Theft in the First Degree. According to the findings of fact in case no. 89-1-04034-1:

          "Defendant's thefts occurred over a 2 1/2 year period of time, there were multiple incidents, more than the standard range can account for, the actual monetary loss was substantially greater than typical for the offense, the crimes and their cover-up involved a high degree of sophistication and planning in the use and alteration of records in the computerized accounting system that defendant maintained for the victim, and the defendant used his position of trust and fiduciary responsibility as a computer systems and accounting consultant for the victim to facilitate the commission of the offenses."

          To sum up, he was convicted of 23 FELONY COUNTS of theft from by - get this - planting back doors in his software and using a "high degree of sophistication" to evade detection.  Do you trust computer systems designed by this man?  Is trust important in electronic voting systems?

          So here we are - Means, Motive, Opportunity - the whole package. And since the systems are so poorly designed, no audit trail to show any wrongdoing. Add some cries of "conspiracy theories" and "sore losers", and you've got yourself a mandate.  Four more years, indeed.  Surprise, surprise.

          W stands for WEAK

          by Winger on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:13:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  What I don't get is (none)
            ...with all this as public, easily gettable information, the Dems did not fight to put a stop to this company having ANYTHING to do with our electoral system BEFORE THE ELECTION!

            Why should it be up to us "grassrooters" to get incensed about it now?

            "Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to God alone."--Thomas Jefferson

            by hopesprings on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:38:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Chuck Hagel tie to ES&S (none)
      Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel was an executive at AIS (parent co of ES&S) until shortly before his election, in which 85% of the voters voted on ES&S machines, and which he won in an upset:
      http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx
      What contempt they must have for us.
  •  can we hire this guy? (3.80)
    Why don't we hire this guy to hack the Ohio recount in Kerry's favor?

    The Republicans would move paper-trail legislation so fast our heads would spin.

    "No shit, Mr. President? How long should we let the inspections drag on, Mr. President? What about those goddamned French, Mr. President?"

    by social democrat on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 09:36:36 PM PST

  •  after election polls? (4.00)
    Has anyone considered the possibility of conducting telephone polls in certain communities where there is the highest probability of voter fraud and ask people who they voted for?  Concrete numbers from reputable polling firm might make some headway in the mainstream media? you know they love polls.
    •  It's evidence, (none)
      But not a smoking gun. It would have to be done in a single county to be any more legitimate than exit polls - perhaps canvassing an entire single small county.

      It would require several thousand phone calls. Done properly, tens of thousands of phone calls. Door to door would be better, however. Some people don't have phones or simply won't comply (although said people would be more likely to vote for Kerry...no? At least the phone lines people. Any way to prove that?)

    •  Post Election Polls (none)
      The methodology for, and usefulness and integrity of, post-election polls would be immediately disputed, and with good reason.  It's always possible for voters to lie or selectively misremember.  I'm not sure such a poll would indicate much of anything, since voters who are inclined to lie would probably side with the perceived winner, giving Bush a marked advantage.
  •  Can Anybody Confirm - (none)
    If any of these 5 felons did time at the Mel Sembler Miami juvenile detention center referenced in the letter to Bev Harris on Jeff Fisher's site?
  •  I agree about the physically ill part... (none)
    And the motive, opportunity, and method are all there.  All this evidence is circumstancial.

    What makes me sick is that there's--so far--no way to know whether massive fraud occurred.  And there is absolutely no way to know that massive fraud did not occur. And this was apparently the design goal of the Diebold team.   Even without hard knowlege, the authenticity of the election must be in doubt.  And any Republicans out there: it's also possible that some Democrat did the same thing in some local election.  There's no way to know.  Heck, it's possible that a foreign national did the damage.  Surely there are other actors than Democrats and Republicans with various stakes in play.

    That said, I'm not so sure about hacking the GEMS code rather than the touch-screens.  If the touch screens are hacked, there's no way to audit at all.  If the GEMS is hacked, you can do an audit by rereading the original NVRAMs from the touch screens, or recount the optically scanned paper ballots.  That's a sure way to detect fraud.

    Modern Republicans talk about Government being the problem, not the solution. What they don't tell you is they mean it as a campaign promise.

    by p mac on Tue Nov 16, 2004 at 11:09:59 PM PST

    •  There is a way to determine hacking (4.00)
      This hacking involves the tabulating machines.

      No one does it, but all systems, even the electronic black boxes, using these tabulators also have some precinct level total tapes that are run off before their results get to the tabulators.

      The problem is that you don't get these tapes on a normal recount.  You get these with an audit recount at the precinct level which is rarely or never done.

      These precinct level Nov. 2nd tapes are what Bev insisted on looking at in Volusia County and what she found in a garbage bag after county officials tried to palm off to her tapes run off on the 15th.  

      More at my site.

      Gary Denton
      Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest

  •  Wake-up call (none)
    It is so gratifying to know that a Republican is concerned about the integrity of the vote.

    I can't help but wonder why John Kerry doesn't call a press conference, which the MSM would have to cover.  

    Nothing less than the fate of our democracy is at stake.

    Why don't other prominent Democrats speak out?

    Has it not yet dawned on them that Democrats will never ever win another presidential election if this isn't rectified; that we've effectively become a one-party country?

    Why are Democrats bothering to organize for 2006 or 2008; what difference does it make who's the head of the DNC; why should any of us ever give our hearts to the Democratic Party again...

    ...if John Kerry, John Edwards, Al Sharpton, Bill Clinton, Jesse Jackson, Hillary Clinton, Jimmy Carter, John Dean, won't call a press conference now and speak out against voter fraud?  

    I am so tired of self-hating Democrats self-consciously referring to this as a tin-foil issue.  

    The right thing to do would be for every single Democrat who ran in the primaries to call a joint press conference, and demand an inquiry.

  •  This is not so much hacking (3.85)
    as it is a primer as to how to use MS Access.

    An unencrypted database file with no password authentication.  Great.  

    Thank goodness it's being run on a rock solid OS platform that is unhackable.  And the the people running it are technically savy and apolitical.

    I've got an idea, let's just tally our elections on a dry erase board.

    •  I've got an idea, (none)
      let's just tally our elections on a dry erase board.

      This should be our slogan!!!!

      You are so funny

    •  How 'bout a chalkboard? (none)
      Or a great big wall of chalkboards? As in the movie The Sting.

      Hey, now ... when somebody makes a movie about this (and somebody will), that might be a good model for it.

      W (as Lonagan): I'm gonna take Florida, and I'm gonna take Ohio, too ... ya follow?

      If you can't laugh at yourself ... we'll gladly do it for you.

      by btrain on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 07:39:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is there really much doubt that there was hacking? (none)
    Honestly, if you were working at the election headquarters and you had access to the voting machine, wouldn't you feel tempted to hack it?  If you knew you could singlehandedly deliver the election to John Kerry, how many of you wouldn't do it?  Think of how bad Bush has been for this country and how bad four more years of him will be.  

    If I were in that position and it came down to it, I don't know I would do it.  Maybe I wouldn't.  But if I'm tempted, how many others would do the deed, especially knowing they have no chance of getting caught.  A sad day indeed.  

    In Britain they admit to having royalty. In the United States we pretend we don't have any, and then we elect them president.

    by Asak on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 12:41:40 AM PST

    •  By Fair Means or Foul (none)
      I hope I would never tamper with anyone else's vote or the results of an election no matter how much I might disagree with it.  Sure, it would be tempting given what you would be saving the world from by getting Chimp out of office, but it would be wrong and completely subvert the democratic process.   I think it would be a terrible thing to have to live with.  

      It seems like there are a lot of people out there who want to "win" by fair means or foul.  I guess these must be the ones who have the "moral values."   LOL  But I'm just old fashioned enough to believe that a person's vote is sacred.  Tampering with it would be just like stealing money out of their wallet.

    •  I wouldn't (none)
      even today, but ballot box stuffing in the past by partisans is an established fact.  This is the same thing, only the details have changed.

      Socially libertarian, Fiscally conservative, 100% Democrat. Cheney unity!

      by No One No Where on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 03:53:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I would NEVER do that (4.00)
      I think Bush is an absolute disaster for our nation.  At the same time, if we have no ethics, what do we stand for?  Stealing an election is not in an ethical grey zone - it is flat-out, totally, 100%, unethical.  I would never do it, even if I had the opportunity and knew for a fact that I would get away with it.

      On the other hand, do I believe that there are many people who absolutely would do it if they could?  Yes, I do.  And I am starting to believe that it was, in fact, done this year.  

    •  Hacking for Kerry? Absolutely not! (none)
      There is no way I'd hack the vote even given the opportunity.  Any such action is a direct attack on the US Government and is almost certainly would qualify as Treason, even if perpetrated in favor of those currently in control.

      Never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for freedom and truth. -- Henrik Ibsen

      by mik on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 05:17:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Response to the people who responded... (none)
      You all gave the same "stealing the election is unethical response" (more or less).  But let's be realistic here: Bush is a murderer.  He is responsible for the deaths of perhaps a hundred thousand Iraqis.  He is single handedly visiting death and misery on a small portion of the world.  

      So, I disagree that this is black and white.  It may be unethical to tamper with votes, but it's also unethical to stand by while people are mistreated or killed.  If you had it in your power to stop what Bush is doing, is it ethical to stand by and let him continue his reign of terror?  I'm not sure it is.  

      The truth is there are higher moral imperatives than democracy.  A democracy can be wrong, and it often is.  Hitler was elected too, remember?  This is not a black and white issue and there are no saints in this world.  There are only shades of gray, and the actions you take are always the lesser of two evils.  

      Which is more important, the Constitution of the United States and the will of its people, or the human rights of all, and the will of the rest of the world?  

      In Britain they admit to having royalty. In the United States we pretend we don't have any, and then we elect them president.

      by Asak on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 06:24:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Contradictory (none)
        You write: Which is more important, the Constitution of the United States and the will of its people, or the human rights of all, and the will of the rest of the world?

        I don't think they are mutually exclusive, in fact I believe for the latter to be true, the former must be true.

        I am no believer in American Exceptionalism but if we reform and become "right" (in the most relatively "good" sense) the world stands a chance; with out the US finally living up to its promise it doesn't.

        Emancipate yourself from Mental Slavery, No one but ourselves can free our Minds.

        by TustonDAZ on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 06:33:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The Truth Is (none)
        If it is no more just for you to impose your morals on the world than it is just for Jerry Falwell to impose his morals on the world or for Osama to impose his morals on the world. Your morals are not greater simply by virtue of you believing them.

        Our democracy is our voice in the course of our nation. It protects us, however imperfectly, from those who would impose their value systems others.

        This subject is so moving to so many partly because the idea of loosing our voice is so terrifying. To degrade our means of self government is to degrade ourselves and our fellows citizens, it is to abandon hope in humanity.

      •  Hmmm (none)
        If it is no more just for you to impose your morals on the world than it is just for Jerry Falwell to impose his morals on the world or for Osama to impose his morals on the world. Your morals are not greater simply by virtue of you believing them.

        Our democracy is our voice in the course of our nation. It protects us, however imperfectly, from those who would impose their value systems others.

        This subject is so moving to so many partly because the idea of loosing our voice is so terrifying. To degrade our means of self government is to degrade ourselves and our fellows citizens, it is to abandon hope in humanity.

  •  A Question re Hacking... (none)
    I'm not up-to-speed on election procedures, so please bear with me...

    If someone were to hack into the system and alter the totals from selected precints, wouldn't one expect to have the folks at the precinct level notice the difference between their counts and the totals attributed to their area of responsibility?  Surely there must be some kind of internal cross-checking going on, or am I being naive?

    I want to believe, but I'm having trouble...

    •  I wonder too (none)
      But isn't that what Black Box Voting is claiming they have found  in Volusia Co, Fl? Their audit request has uncovered multiple conflicting precint tapes. One set signed by the poll workers that doesn't match the reported numbers and another set, apparently made later, that does.  Perhaps somebody is going back and falsifying precint tapes?

      And on another thread, a volunteer that worked two precints in a democratic area of Columbus Ohio stated he was stunned when at the end of the day the numbers reported for the precints were about 100 voters short of what he counted and that Bush had inexpiicably won the precints. It is as if the machines just dropped every 4th or 5th Kerry vote. This type of thing should be revealed by an audit of the precint books.

      I thought that each party had a person in each precint to witness the count and call back in so there is an independent tally. But in Florida we know that Democrats aren't always what they claim to be.

      In optical scan precints the only tally at this point is what the scanner machine tells you it read. So if that has defective software (like the 9 counties in Indiana that recorded all straight party Dem votes for Libertarians) it will only be revealed by a recount on a clean machine or a hand recount.  Luckily the ballots are still there for recounting. In many touchsreen precints there is no trail at all. And it is convienently illegal to examine the software on the machines.

    •  Cross Checking from precinct (none)
      You would think so, but look at the Gahana Ohio precinct turning in counts of over 4000 votes for Bush when there were less than 700 total voters!

      Hard to believe they missed that large an error.

       And even an honest precinct judge might not question the final totals when they add in absentee and provisional ballots.

      Houston, We have a problem..

  •  The problem for Democrats (none)
    The problem as I see it is that any Democrat, especially one recently losing an election will be labeled a spoiler/sore loser and the allegations will be diminished to a point of ridicule against them.

    I can almost hear the stock reply, "they would have you believe that there was a conspiracy so large that it would involve millions of people acting in unison, and that's just not logical."

    Most people are unaware of just how easy it is to do just that.

    It has to come from us as victims.

  •  And where is our government? (none)
    To set standards?

    To have a watchdog committee?

    To enforce laws?

    To protect the citizens that fund it?

    Snoring?  Sleeping?  Or maybe happy to have MS Access, possibly the least secure piece of software in the IT world, now capable of working in their favor if they cheat enough?

    I don't know which I'd rather believe - that Congress is too lazy and stupid to see this, or that they see it and are just fine with it.

  •  Hey Jailbirds, Need A Job? Diabold is Hiring! (3.50)
    Only Ex-Felons need apply...

    See Con Job at Diebold Subsidiary from Wired News.

     


    At least five convicted felons secured management positions at a manufacturer of electronic voting machines, according to critics demanding more stringent background checks for people responsible for voting machine software.

  •  Computer Ate My Vote Campaign (none)
    In all of the threads about the ability to hack into the tabulation machines and the lack of paper trail for the voting machines, I haven't seen anyone mention the work done by organizations like TrueMajority to bring this issue to light.

    TrueMajority sponsored a nationwide campaign in late 2003 and early 2004 (in partnership with other organizations that I can't recall at the moment), "The Computer Ate My Vote" to draw attention to the fallibility of the voting computers. Protests were conducted and demands for paper trails were made. The campaign was successful in some areas and I believe it is one of the reasons Ohio didn't actually use voting machines this time around.

    Where I live in Denver, Colorado, there was absolutely no press coverage of the TrueMajority campaign despite a decent sized protest at the Capitol Building. I wonder if others recall this campaign and if it had a positive effect elsewhere or perhaps no effect?

    I've also noticed that TrueMajority has been absent in the activities surrounding a full accounting and investigation into voting irregularities. I've contacted them and heard nothing on the subject. I'm curious if others know why an organization that was so vocal about the potential for fraud prior to the election is now so deafeningly silent on the issue?

  •  I'm assuming (none)
    that we have forwarded the link to his site to KO by now, right?
  •  After reading some of the comments here... (none)
    which are great, an idea comes to mind.  It has to do with the suggestion that the precinct tapes would vary from the reported numbers from the tabulators.  

    If I read Bev correctly, each tape must be run election night signed by election workers.  Perhaps if a reporter were to get a list of precincts in question and contact the election workers and match their recollection with the published tabulator numbers we can find some real numbers that have been hacked.  Then work backwards from that tabulator and check out the modems, memory cards, etc.  It might be a way to narrow the search.

    Then, perhaps, if we show that we are getting close, someone will turn and try to save their skin.  

    Progressive values are human values. We are all in this together.

    by NYBri on Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 10:58:00 AM PST

  •  Here is a professional Test of Diebold AccuVote (none)
    http://www.raba.com/press/TA_Report_AccuVote.pdf

    Was done for state of maryland.  Long but they used a "red team" approach to try to hack it. XP os was not patched, and used a commercial testing program called "Canvas" (what a name). Broke in through modem and took over pc tabulator in seconds.

    The only insider piece of info needed is the phone number for the tabulators modem connection to change the counts from anywhere you can dial a phone number. Can also be hacked thru a network or internet connection.

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