Something looks very wrong in Florida... [UPDATED]

Now, quite a bit of work is being done around these parts regarding Ohio numbers, and I'm thankful for that.  But, hey, let's take a look at Florida numbers, just for fun.

The Florida Department of State has posted its first set of unofficial returns from every county.  Every one has included counts of absentee ballots, and every one is marked as a final report, according to the data on the site.  Now, I'm not sure about that, but let's accept it for now.

Turnout is reported for every county except Hernando (which inexplicably reports 0 turnout).  Now, let's assume that every registered voter in Hernando county (all 109,656 of them) voted.  That gives us total voter turnout of 7,460,556.  Let's compare that with the reported total numbers of votes for Senate, President, and Amendment 5, the amendment receiving the most total votes of the 8 offered (number of votes in excess of maximum turnout in parentheses):

for Senate: 7,409,542 (-51,014)
for Amendment 5: 7,277,832 (-182,724)
for President: 7,586,995 (126,439)

Something is wrong here.  A bit more below the fold...

Now, this turnout estimate is high.  Let's assume that turnout in Hernando County is actually at the same rate as elsewhere in the state (excluding Hernando County), 72.1%.  This gives us 79,062 votes from Hernando, and a total state turnout of 7,429,962.  So, we could estimate that 20,420 people didn't vote for any of the seven Senate candidates, 0.27% of those who turned out.  But we also then estimate that the number of votes for President exceeds turnout by 157,033.

Granted, the number of votes for Bush exceeds the number of votes for Kerry by 381,210, more than double this margin.  But regardless of that, what is going on here?  Are provisional votes to blame?  If so, why aren't they reflected in votes for the equally hard-fought Senate race?  The state is claiming that the turnout counts include absentee ballots--perhaps this isn't really true?  

I would love to see a reasonable explanation, but I can't come up with anything.

UPDATE:
I have broken down the data by county. Several observations:

• The Florida data aren't even internally consistent--vote totals from the "First Set of Unofficial General Election Returns" (.pdf file) don't exactly match the vote totals elsewhere on the site, though they're close. Above and elsewhere, I used vote totals from the .pdf, and turnout figures from the website, since turnout isn't in the .pdf.
• There are 12 counties where currently recorded votes for Presidential candidates exceed reported turnout (not including Hernando county, which didn't provide a nonzero turnout figure), by a total of 192,397 votes. I'll provide a chart of these counties here in just a moment.

ALSO: many are confused by what I'm pointing out here. It's relatively unobjectionable for there to be significant numbers of voters who vote for some items on the ballot and not others (though some states make this as confusing as possible; e.g., my home state of NC counts votes for President separate from a straight-ticket vote, meaning voters must vote for both separately). The problem here is that Florida is reporting more votes for president than voters. Other ballot items were provided for reference.

My analysis shows that 12 counties have reported votes for Presidential candidates in excess of reported turnout. Six have discrepancies of less than 1% of turnout (though still more than 0, obviously, and worrisome), and I'll focus for now on the other six:

• Glades: 2443 Bush/1718 Kerry/27 Other; Turnout 3446; 742 Discrepancy = 21.53% over turnout
• Highlands: 25874 Bush/15346 Kerry/271 Other; Turnout 33996; 7495 Discrepancy = 22.05% over turnout
• Miami-Dade: 358613 Bush/406099 Kerry/3841 Other; Turnout 716574; 51979 Discrepancy = 7.25% over turnout
• Osceola: 43108 Bush/38617 Kerry/453 Other; Turnout 63589; 18589 Discrepancy = 29.23% over turnout
• Palm Beach: 211894 Bush/327698 Kerry/3243 Other; 452061 Turnout; 90774 Discrepancy = 20.08% over turnout
• Volusia: 111544 Bush/115319 Kerry/1495 Other; 209052 Turnout; 19306 Discrepancy = 9.24% over turnout

FURTHER UPDATE:
Anyone interested can now take a peek at my spreadsheet. It's certainly not pretty, but it has all the numbers referenced herein.

YET ANOTHER UPDATE:
The other six counties are:

• Collier: 83485 Bush/43713 Kerry/1154 Other; 127409 Turnout; 943 Discrepancy = 0.74% over turnout
• Lake: 74382 Bush/48216 Kerry/1340 Other; 123751 Turnout; 187 Discrepancy = 0.15% over turnout
• Leon: 51594 Bush/83830 Kerry/890 Other; 136229 Turnout; 85 Discrepancy = 0.06% over turnout
• Okaloosa: 69654 Bush/19358 Kerry/695 Other; 89485 Turnout; 222 Discrepancy = 0.25% over turnout
• Orange: 192390 Bush/193217 Kerry/2145 Other; 386104 Turnout; 1648 Discrepancy = 0.43% over turnout.

Additionally, as fellow dKos user DEA points out, Escambia county looks very strange, too. Turnout exceeded reported votes for president by 18193, 11.29% of turnout, making it a strong outlier.

•  Something is wrong in florida

  by Grassroots Mom on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 03:47:55 PM PDT

  •  It's called Jeb Bush

    They'll just blame it all on hurricanes.  It's a good excuse in those parts, ain't it?

    by Gearhead on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:09:39 PM PDT

    •  Calling Jimmy Carter

      Does anyone know how to contact Jimmy Carter?

      Jimmy Carter has observed elections around the world to make sure they're conducted ethically.

      Why isn't he observing ours?

      by jos on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:47:29 PM PDT

      •  Jimmy Carter

        actually answered the question of why he wasn't observing Florida. (Pardon me if someone responded already, I didn't find ut looking quickly)

        Still Seeking a Fair Florida Vote

        By Jimmy Carter
        Monday, September 27, 2004; Page A19

        The Carter Center has monitored more than 50 elections, all of them held under contentious, troubled or dangerous conditions. When I describe these activities, either in the United States or in foreign forums, the almost inevitable questions are: "Why don't you observe the election in Florida?" and "How do you explain the serious problems with elections there?"

        The answer to the first question is that we can monitor only about five elections each year, and meeting crucial needs in other nations is our top priority. (Our most recent ones were in Venezuela and Indonesia, and the next will be in Mozambique.) A partial answer to the other question is that some basic international requirements for a fair election are missing in Florida.

        The article says more...but it is pretty sad that Florida would be disqualified due to not meeting fair election standards.

        by joynow on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 09:16:36 PM PDT

  •  Most massive Freedom of Info action in history

    http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

    THURSDAY Nov. 4 2004: If you are concerned about what happened Tuesday, Nov. 2, you have found a home with our organization. Help America Audit.

    Black Box Voting has taken the position that fraud took place in the 2004 election through electronic voting machines. We base this on hard evidence, documents obtained in public records requests, inside information, and other data indicative of manipulation of electronic voting systems. What we do not know is the specific scope of the fraud. We are working now to compile the proof, based not on soft evidence -- red flags, exit polls -- but core documents obtained by Black Box Voting in the most massive Freedom of Information action in history.

    [ ... ]

    Freedom of Information requests are not free. We need to raise $50,000 as quickly as possible to pay for records and the fees some states charge for them. We launched one major FOIA action last night, and have two more on the way, pell-mell. Now is the time.]

    Important: Watch this 30-minute film clip.

    If you care about this issue - DONATE!!

    by bumblebums on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:02:09 PM PDT

    •  VoterGate torrent

      I had a hard time finding the full download of this film.  I did  find it as a bittorrent download, at a subscription server.  Dunno if this is cool or not, (probably isn't, oh well), but I mirrored the torrent file to make it accessible to the masses.  Get on it! there's just one seed and he's going to pull the torrent soon, just like Archive.org pulled the original sometime yesterday morning. IOW, this is a last chance grab at this...
      

      by winstnsmth on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:52:45 AM PDT

  •  Last Miami Race Recertified 5 Times

    In the last municipal election before this year's elections in Miami-Dade, FL, the results were certified and then changed 5 times after that.  They did not change the winners or losers, but it seems that these types of problems are prevalent.  I do not suspect any wrong doing in the election I am referencing, but I can tell you that it seems like most election counts are a cluster fuck.  As well, we have to consider that I am referencing Miami-Dade, FL, so anything is possible in my home county fondly referred to locally as the Banana Republic of Florida.

    I guess what I am saying is, that while I in my gut suspect fraud in this Presidential election, the fact is that election accuracy is an ongoing joke, dirty secret, etc.

    by bradnickel on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:49:59 PM PDT

  •  Computer Hacking

    good article on US Government's computer hacking abilities

    http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/810.

    by Glickman on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:24:38 AM PDT

  •  It's called overvotes and undervotes

    more people went to the polls but their ballots were not counted due to "spoilage".  These are the overvotes, mistakenly voting for more than one candidate or stray marks on optical scan ballots.  These people's ballots were not counted in the totals. This has occurred in voting for eons but it came to have meaning in 2000 becuse of the closeness of the vote in Fla.

    by debcoop on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 11:38:07 AM PDT

  •  It's called undervotes and overvotes

    This is what is called "spoilage".  More peole die go to the polls and in some way cast a vote that was not counted due to overvoting,(more than one candidate) of undervoting and these people ballots were either discarded or discarded for that office and that would show up in the turnout number.  which by the way is handled differently in eah county.  Spoilage has always occcurred in every eletion ; it only came to notice in 2000 because of the closeness of the race.

    by debcoop on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 11:47:15 AM PDT

    •  missing the point

      This isn't about over/under.  These are extra votes... more votes recorded than voters that voted.  Overvotes are thrown out... so that's not the case here.  They would go down as no vote for president and actually work against the extra vote numbers.

      The 4000 extra votes for bush on that one machine in Franklin county wasn't due to overvotes.

      by DEA on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:14:30 PM PDT

  •  found more

    Did my own spreadsheat on this... came up with a few more counties:

    County     Turnout   Votes Recorded  Over
    Collier      127409    128352              943
    Duval       379257    379614              357
    Lake         123751    123938              187
    Leon         136229    136314               85
    Okaloosa   89485     89707                222
    Orange     386104    387752              1648

    Also, Escambia County had 18193 under votes (11.29%) which is way out of line.  The second highest undervote percentage is Baker County with 1.03%.

    Remember, typically you will have a certain percentage of undervotes due to people choosing none of the above, or not registering a vote.  This is typically around 0.5%.  So when you see extra votes of, for instance, 1%, what you really have, in all likelyhood, is 1.5%

    Other Counties registered fairly low undervote percentages, and it might bear looking into if we can get a hold of the precinct numbers or better yet, the individual voting machine numbers (like we got for Franklin County, Ohio, for instance.)

    Remember, people... even if none of this yeilds enough votes to get Kerry into office, there is much more at stake here.  We're talking about preventing future election rigging. If the people who perpetrated this fraud get away with it again and again, you can be sure they will keep on doing it.  We have to uncover every attempt at rigging elections if we are ever going to be able to trust our system.  It doesn't matter if one particular case made enough of a difference to swing an election.  A crime was still committed.

    by DEA on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:11:05 PM PDT

    •  Confirmed your numbers

      I've got the same numbers. This is solid. Next step: send the info to every news and Democratic organization you can with links to the government sources for the information. Don't rely on attachments just in case they won't open them due to viruses and such.

      Your assertion that this is bigger than getting one person or another into office is also accurate. This is about preserving democracy and seeing that those who would rig the process need to be brought to justice. Not only do people need to believe that the process works - the process needs to actually work.

      by FreeRadical on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:42:43 PM PDT

•  88,000 extra votes in Palm Beach County

  Breaking via Washington Dispatch:
  'According to the official election results posted on the Palm Beach County election website, 542,835 ballots were cast for a presidential candidate while only 454,427 voters turned out for the election (including absentee). This leaves a discrepancy of 88,408 votes cast for the presidential candidates.
  Palm Beach County's supervisor of elections is Theresa LePore who is known for the 2000 Presidential Election and the notorious "butterfly ballot" that caused confusion among seniors and other Floridians.'
  link
  

  by wilderness wench on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 03:53:52 PM PDT

  •  Problem fixed ?!

    First off, note the time of the article: November 5, 2004 04:56 PM and the time for the latest Palm Beach results: November 5, 2004 6:33 PM. Moreover, let's compare what Palm Beach County has to say with the Florida Department of State:
    

    	State	Palm Beach
    Reg	729,575	729,575
    Voted	452,061	547,340
    President	542,835	544,378
    Bush	211,894	212,578
    Kerry	327,698	328,553

    Well, at least both agree on how many registered to vote. And now, the Palm Beach numbers have more votes than presidential votes. This is what you call local gov't at work for you: fixing the voting rolls as quickly as noticed! Otherwise, no agreement.
    Lesson here is these must be preliminary numbers. But watching this accounting take place before my eyes doesn't do much to make me trust the results.
    
    Maybe I shouldn't complain to much; the Repubs stole this election fair and square.

    by Nicholas Phillips on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:03:29 PM PDT

    •  Are you sure it isn't a typo?

      "State voted" may really be "542,061" or "552,061".

      Look, anyone fixing the count wouldn't release utterly absurd figures.

      by Jon Meltzer on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:21:25 PM PDT

      •  I checked all my math

        and checked again. If we want to develop the ammunition to attack this past election, we must make sure always we triple check our numbers. Those that would prefer our complains be ignored will use any mistake to discredit the whole argument.
        
        

        by Nicholas Phillips on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 10:32:27 PM PDT

    •  They're OUR votes, guys...

      ...and no one, not George Bush, not even John Kerry, has the right to deny our Constitutional rights.

      The Diabolical, I mean, Diebold machines are clearly at fault in some cases; and Madame Butterfly seems to be up to her old tricks.

      In 2000, when Theresa LePore mis-designed the butterfly ballot in such a way as to trick elderly Jewish voters with poor eyesight (who were perhaps voting for the last time in their lives) into voting for Pat Buchanan, she feigned contrition, and hid behind the fact that she was a registered Democrat.

      Interestingly, she subsequently switched parties.

      The citizens of Florida have an obligation to demand a recount, if only to force the mainstream media to focus on Voting Corruption, for the sake of 2006 and 2008.

      Imagine what Karl Rove, Karen Hughes, and the right-wing pundits would do in this position.  They would blanket the airwaves with hyperbolic hyperventilating pseudo-patriotic insistence that anyone who doesn't demand a recount is downright un-American.

      A favorite Republican trick is to call the election as soon as possible, to make the other guy look like a sore loser if he perseveres.

      Remember Bush's first cousin at Fox calling 2000?

      Card called Ohio for Bush while voters were still at the polls.

      That is disgraceful.

      If we don't call for a recount now, it sets a terrible precedent, indicating that Democrats will do nothing when they are taken to the cleaners.  

      Why aren't African-American leaders speaking out about the disgrace of African-Americans being "dissed" by disenfranchisement?  Where are you, Al Sharpton?  Where are you, Jesse Jackson?  How about you, Oprah?

      If the voters don't demand a recount,  Republicans in the future will point to the Diebold debacle of the 2004 election and say, "See, everything went smoothly", and know that they can cheat with impunity.

      Thus emboldened, they will act like greedy children who've learned that they can steal candy with no consequences.

      If the voters don't demand a recount, it will hurt just a little bit more every time a Scalia-clone Supreme Court Justice is annointed, or another American soldier dies needlessly.

      If our Founding Fathers could have envisioned Diebold computer voting machines, they would have written paper trails and recounts right into the Constitution.

      My friend, who's a Republican strategist, said to me last night, "Man, you guys are such wimps.  We never would've given up at this point."

      Maybe we've lost the White House twice because we're playing by the Boy Scout code of honor, and they're playing by Darth Vader rules.

      Unfortunately, those little old ladies we like to help across the street will find their Social Security in jeopardy soon, and won't be able to afford the medications they need when they come down with the flu because, no shots.

      by jos on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:42:19 PM PDT

      •  OK, OK, BUT HOW??

           You wrote that people should demand a recount in Florida. How would this be accomplished? The voting machines there had NO paper trail. None at all. That means a recount would really be a repeat of the first count.
           What people SHOULD demand is an absolute ban on any computer voting. We should use paper ballots on which one's choice will be marked with an 'X'.
            Federal elections should be 'federalized', with very strict legal rules set by the Federal government, paid for by the Federal government, and enforced by a bi-(or tri- or quadra-) partisan
        group overseen by a boss at the top whose honesty and scrupulousness would be without question. As for the last necessity, I admit that such a person may only exist in the land of fantasy. Perhaps the multi-partisan group should be run by a small group, three or five perhaps, or even overseen by the Supreme Court. WHOA!! Maybe NOT the Supreme Court.
            Of course, with paper ballots which would have to be counted by hand, we would have to wait a little longer to find out who wins. In Canada, it usually takes 5-7 hours. It would probably take longer here because there are so many more voters. Maybe twelve hours? I think the country could wait that long.
        

        by ronnoc37 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:55:27 PM PDT

        •  Think and Act Locally...

          While there is a good case to be made for some minimum federal standards, federalizing the election process is a bad idea.

          Federal elections are only a fraction of the electoral activity that occurs in America.  Why should a national standard dictate how our elections are conducted for state and local offices?  Local and state elections boards are more accessible to ordinary citizens, but I am concerned that a national elections board would be the creature of the party elites or be an inefficient bureaucracy.  

          Better to have election process reform occur state by state and by county.  Let best practices be replicated nationally.   I can understand the interest in a federal elections system if you live in a state like Florida where irregularities are more common.  However, if you live in a state with relatively honest and efficient voting processes, you have to be concerned that the federal standard would be a lower standard.

          By and large, elections run smoothly in Wisconsin.  I don't want to give up same day registration.  Optical scan seems like a reliable technology.  Our poll workers, local and country clerks, and the state elections board seem committed to a fair process.  We had an 80% turnout in Madison and many smaller communities in the state had turnout rates that exceeded 90%.  I have not seen any reports of significant problems.

          If you want election reform, start taking up the question with your state and local officials today.

          by Maturin on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 09:42:59 PM PDT

        •  Do not federalize the presidential election

          Things are bad enough, you wouldn't want GWBush actually in charge, in any way, of the polling. When I think about it, the way the constitution sets up the election of the executive branch is wise.
          Naturally, judges shouldn't be in charge; we have needed them to settle differences.  And having either congress or the white house do it is leaving the fox in charge of the henhouse.
          
          Thus it is left to the states that want to yield to federal authority to select the time and manner ot polling.

          by Nicholas Phillips on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 10:39:36 PM PDT

        •  Paper ballots are not the answer

          unless we went to a parliamentary system like Canada, where you basically just choose a party, there is no way we could conduct elections with paper ballots and have them counted this year. In fact, during early voting I noted a number of people who took up to an hour to vote because of all the various state constitutional amendments and local and county charter amendments. As Kos noted after he voted in California, this level of citizen "participation" has reached the point of absurdity and beyond. Even without those, our ballot include separate elections for President, Senate, Congressional Rep, State Rep, ten (I think) yes or note votes on Supreme Court/Appeals court justices, circuit court judge, clerk of the circuit court, county commissioners,...I'm probably forgetting somebody here...but you get the point. Without a machine count, it would be impossible.

          by Alice in Florida on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:51:58 AM PDT

          •  Sure they are

              I should have been clearer. I meant those contests that are Federal in nature should use paper ballots counted by hand. That would be President, VP, Senate and House races.
               I am ignorant about how many voters the average precinct accommodates. Let's pick what I think must be a number that's a pretty high guess-10,000. There probably those precincts that are higher, but it sems high for an average. How long could it take to count 10,000 votes for only Fed. elections? I'm betting I could do it myself if I worked for a steady 6 hours or so.
               Sure, it ain't gonna happen. The system would strike most as 'stone-age' technology. But, as nothing more than a 'what I would wish for' kind of thing, I believe it is the best system possible.

            by ronnoc37 on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 09:45:44 PM PDT

        •  Where have all the Ohio diaries gone?

          It is important that we post our concerns about both Florida and Ohio voter fraud, particularly the disenfranchisement of African-American citizens.

          We are the barometer.

          Republicans are watching to see if they can cheat with impunity in the future.

          There is a double-standard regarding our willingness to ignore voter fraud issues because Bush "won the popular vote."  Al Gore legitimately won the popular vote by 600,000 in 2000, but this did not faze the Republicans in any way.

          In 2000, we learned that we need not just to win the debates, but to win the spin.

          In 2004, are we willing to learn an even more crucial lesson...

          ...we need not just to win the votes, but to win the cheat.

          By "win the cheat", I mean, make sure that such disgraceful disenfranchisement of voters never happens again to any voter, Republican,  Democrat, Independent...

          We are ensuring that voter fraud will not only happen again, but become a new political art form, by being so complacent about Florida and Ohio.

          There is not one word about voter fraud on the main page postings.

          Michael Moore seems to have gone to his happy place.

          Jimmy Carter has given up on our country's electoral process.

          Bruce Springsteen has moved on to sing other songs.

          But somewhere in Ohio, there is a grandmother who stood in the freezing rain for four-and-a- half hours to vote, and her vote was deliberately not counted, and this is something about which we should all be deeply and profoundly ashamed.

          by jos on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:18:42 PM PDT

          •  You're absolutely right (nm)

            by karenvanhoek on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 06:07:03 PM PDT

        •  Not true -- many are opti-scan

          Many of the machines were counting paper ballots. There should be plenty to recount. Not in every precinct, but in lots of them.

          by karenvanhoek on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 06:05:53 PM PDT

      •  Darth Vader.

        A couple of months before the election I posted something here about how we needed a Karl Rove on our side, and that we learn some sneaky, underhanded techniques-- and I got slammed by several dKosers for abandoning the principle that we be "better than they are."  

        Well, I totally agree with you that they have been playing by Darth Vader rules, and while I hold fairness dear, I also believe that we're dealing with people who believe that reality is perception; that there is no truth beyond what you can make people think it is.  So perhaps we need to abandon the Boy Scout oath and reflect on the possibility that the only "better" we need to be in this game, which they currently are close to controlling entirely (having stacked the deck with circuit judges, congress, senate, and now the Supreme Court), is better at making people see what we want them to see.

        First stop:  the media empire store, where we buy ourselves a major network television broadcast corporation-- an essential tool in achieving that.

        Second stop:  the long-term-strategy, take-no-prisoners, fuck-ethics store, where we buy ourselves a Karl Rove and a Grover Norquist.  Are the shelves empty in that store in Democratland?  Do they only stock the shelves of that store in Jesusland?

        Third stop:  Values college, where we take a crash course in contemporary American "values" and learn to use language to speak about them.

        by concernedamerican on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 09:00:03 PM PDT

      •  Fight fire with fire

        Maybe we've lost the White House twice because we're playing by the Boy Scout code of honor, and they're playing by Darth Vader rules.

        This is true regarding our entire election strategy.  

        Why not throw Bush's cocaine rumours out there?

        Why not attack him on his misspent youth?

        Why not attack him on his DUI?

        Why not attack him on letting America be attacked?

        Over and over again we don't play the cards we have because we don't think it's nice.  

        I'm sick of this shit!  No wonder they think Democrats are wimps!  Fight, man!

        by daveriegel on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 01:08:07 PM PDT

        •  The eyes of the soldier who lost his hand...

          ...stare at me from the Operation Truth ad in the margin of my computer as I log in.

          Don't we owe it to him; to all our troops; to fight for a true democracy in this terribly divided United States, as we have supposedly been doing in Iraq?

          Wouldn't it be nice if all the troops in Iraq could go to a nice, cozy movie theater tonight and watch The Incredibles, instead of risking their lives, while we're all too tired, too burnt-out, to fight for democracy here at home, by making certain that every vote in Ohio and Florida is fairly counted?

          If the Shiites systematically suppress the Sunni vote in the upcoming Iraqi election, it will be taken more seriously than Republican suppression of the Democratic vote in Ohio and Florida.

          Democrats are being undone by our own timidity, in the face of Republican in-your-face temerity.

          by jos on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:44:41 PM PDT

        •  Bush's Mis-spent youth is his asset with the..

          ... religious right.

          Simply put, most of the religious right comes from a redemption strain, meaning that they do not mind (and as a matter of fact are encouraged by) the presence of sin early in life.  As long as one has been "born again", the past is simply experience.  John Kerry, literally an altar-boy from youth, had no hope with these people, and if we continuously remind them that Bush "once was lost and now is found," and then run altar-boys against him, then we are always gonna lose.  Clinton's shame was also his saving grace... the language he spoke was a language of redemtion and that is what caused the Christian cross-over.

          I know it's off topic, but it's a misperception that will cause future failure if it isn't set right.

          by ajaxsinger on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:40:29 PM PDT

  •  Good--you got this, too

    I was just about to post it.  It does seem an unseemly pattern is emerging. Now, we've got to get Kerry to retract that concession, AGAIN, until all the votes are PROPERLY counted. . . .  We're not going to be strong-armed into 4 more years of Bushco "spending my earned credit" chicanery.

    by Einsteinia on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:14:20 PM PDT

    •  Get the proof first

      Build the case, then Kerry can retract the concession. Is there any reason why he has to retract it first? The people of Florida can demand recounts with or without Kerry's say-so, can't they?

      by karenvanhoek on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 06:08:55 PM PDT

  •  Why isn't this diary on the main page?

    If the Republicans are watching and you can bet they are, they're saying, great, we got away with stealing another presidential election, we can do it again in 2008 with impunity, since even the blogs are silent.

    Feels like Kos is really letting us down.

    Feels patronizing to be sent off to the movies when there is work yet to be done.  

    Sets a terrible precedent to be so resigned to blatantly racist African-American voter disenfranchisement.  

    Where are our leaders?

    Republican blogsters would be screaming their heads off if the roles were reversed.

    Why not at least elevate the diaries, if Kos requires a rest?

    Soon it will be too late, and we owe it to the soldiers who are risking their lives to do everything we can to maintain our rapidly diminishing grasp on democracy in these very divided United States.

    by jos on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 10:36:52 PM PDT

  •  I tallied our own numbers in Palm Beach

     
    Some on the ground reality. I was part of the Palm Beach election day operational staff. I was on the ground and counted votes and voters and encountered more Republicans in Palm Beach that there had been in 2000.  In that county proportionally their new registrations went up more than ours.

    On Election day I was in the room where we tracked our targeted high performing Democratic precincts.  We had Democrats at each of these polling places clicking as voters entered the polls.  I was recording our numbers.  We were very concerned.  There were some specific precincts where the numbers of voters were too low.  Some of the elderly Jewish voters did not show up: they were afraid of long lines and the e voting machines were off putting to them.  In some of the minority communities, but not all, the numbers, as we counted them, not Theresa LePore  were not good.

    We knew it would take them days to count the absentees.  Sure she was not on our side.  She may have denied absentee ballots because the signatures did not match.  The Palm Beach campaign mamger personally intervened at 4:30 on election day to get the postal union to find 6000 absentee ballots sitting in the supervisor's PO box in the post office and had the firemen deliver it the supervisor's at 6:45 with 7PM  deadline.  She would have let them sit.  There are all sorts of ways to keep our turnout down and they used them well enough that there was no need to alter the results at the endpoint.

    When I went out to canvass in lower middle class white communities there were more Republicans there than there had been in 2000. Anybody who had a pick up truck in the driveway had voted for Bush.  Sad but true.

    I think the very long lines we had at early voting due to the fact that there were too few sites did keep the less motivated voters away from the polls.

    I think the long lines in Ohio  were disenfranchising and deliberate but you can't recount votes that weren't cast.  

    I am devastated and in mourning.  But in Florida I don't think the e voting machines were manipulated.  

    And if you look at yesterday's NY Times map of growth in registration figures you see are an near matching overlay of where in Florida George Bush's large margin of victory came from.  

    I think there were 400,000 or more new  "Christian" voters  who voted with their deluded and bigoted hearts for George Bush.

    We need to know why we lost before we can fix it and in Fla. I don't think vote fraud is the answer.  Up north in the panhandle there were more Bush voters whether they registered as Democrats or Republicans and like in 2000 they voted for Bush despite their party label.  

    by debcoop on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 12:20:16 PM PDT

•  So that's how bush won

  We misunderestimated the fuzzy math votes.

  by sgilman on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 03:54:18 PM PDT

•  I looked

  there is something wrong. Get some GELAC lawyers in there now, please.

  by bornadem on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:01:26 PM PDT

•  This is all starting

  to come together. Andrew Card rushed to the media very early Wednesday to claim that Bush had won.

  Developing...  

  by Coldblue Steele on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:04:37 PM PDT

  •  He did.

    They did the same in 2000.   Are we at all surprised?
    Bush's cousin at Fox News called Florida for Bush in 2000 and the rest of the media stations then RETRACTED their projections that Gore had won Florida (just watched F911 again and got creeped out when Bush says "we're going to win Florida, you can write it down" while he sits next to Jeb who is grinning ear to ear.  This isn't confidence, it's certainty, and not the faith-based kind.

    Last Tuesday, Florida was called for Bush before the votes were counted, and Andrew Card called Ohio for Bush.   Who the hell is Card to issue this type of statement?  Last I checked, he did not work for the Ohio elections commission so why does he have any authority in the matter?

    We need to wake up.  I know we were all shocked and stunned (it's because we knew Kerry had the votes to win, you see) when those election returns started to skew - I watched Jon Stewart visibly implode as it was happening.  
    Now that we have had a few days perspective, letting the shock  wear off, I think it's becoming clear that this election has some MAJOR problems.   We must do something about this NOW, before the results are certified by the joint session of congress.   For the Bush/Gore results, not one senator (not even Wellstone-- what's up with that???) would sign with house members to hold up certification due to Florida's irregularities.   We must contact our senators and preempt any idea of going with the republican flow here.   This is OUR election for OUR president, and fuck the republicans who don't like it.
    They like to crow that 'the people have spoken', well we need to speak now.   I for one have had it with the bully tactics that enable these thugs to continue raping the nation.   Values my ass.   They should be hung.

    by Voodoo on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:13:45 AM PDT

    •  Oh man was that aggravating

      Oh man did I hate that where the Bush folks were all "we're declaring victory but we're giving Kerry time to work things out" and I'm all "a-holes! It's not your time to give! You wait like everyone else, f-ers! Kerry don't need to operate at your f-in schedule, we already have a schedule, it's called counting votes, something you don't want to go by..." and a couple extra expletives added here and there...

      Raw, baby, raw.

      My suggestion these next months and years is to seriously work at unhinging the man Bush (more than he is) and to work his nerves so he messes up (criminally ideally) beyond all shadow of a doubt to any person, Republican or Democratic.

      by Ace Pumpkin on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 08:40:41 AM PDT

•  Not sure.

  I helped a guy in his 50s in Columbus OH vote for the first time in his life.  He wanted Bush out.  I showed him the literature with the full slate of candidates supported by the county Dem. party and as I started to explain he turned to me and asked "Can I just vote for Kerry?"  Since I was lucky to get him to the polls at all, I said OK.

  I know that's anecdotal, but it's also true that a lot more people vote in presidential years.  Before claiming fraud, find similar figures from other states/counties.

  by Go Vegetarian on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:10:28 PM PDT

  •  Read it again

    the discrepency isn't in the dfference between other races and the presidential, its between TOTAL NUMBER OF VOTES CAST and the presidential.
    There are more presidential votes cast than there were ballots cast.

    by bornadem on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:15:21 PM PDT

    •  And we can assume...

      it didn't happen that way because some voters landed on "Triple Word Score".

      by Hunter on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:10:42 PM PDT

      •  I wanna play dKos Scrabble.

        Then I can put my X on the tripple word score and make Kerry win.

        by zic on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:04:14 PM PDT

      •  And had some X's & Q's up their sleeves?

        by jos on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:59:21 PM PDT

•  In general there will

  always be more votes cast in a state in the Presidential race than in the Senate race.  Probably for a variety of reason but mostly because by election day, more people feel competent to make that one decision.

  by Marie on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:46:38 PM PDT

  •  That's interesting

    but the poster is telling you that more people voted for president than showed up at the polls.  It could be that the number for the total number of voters is not up to date??

    by smilodon on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 04:54:28 PM PDT

  •  i also disagree with this

    the only possible explanation is that indies don't vote for Senate when there are only 2 candidates to choose from and they don't like either of them.  But several hundred thousand?  Not likely.  In colorado the split is negligble, and we had as important a senate race as did any state.  this election came down to dem vs gop---indies who don't usually vote showed up at the polls and i find it hard to believe they took the time, made the effort and then didn't complete their ballot.

    by CO4Kerry2004 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:44:36 PM PDT

    •  CA 2004

      President - votes cast 9,984,xxx
      Senate - votes case 9,707,xxx
      Difference 277,xxx

      That's fairly common.  

      by Marie on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:05:01 PM PDT

      •  While true...

        While your analysis is true - it misses the point.  I have a post down thread explaining the situation.  In brief, the total number of votes recorded in the county-by-county breakdown is less than the state-wide total number of votes.  Skipping over parts of the ballot does not explain these results.
        

        by aschweig on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:37:13 PM PDT

        •  Phantom Voters

          Guy, this is the point. There were more ballots cast than there were REAL BODIES to cast these ballots. This could be an indication of voter fraud - like that machine in Franklin County that recorded nearly 4000 votes for Bush when in fact there were only 470 total voters in the whol damn princinct - total number of votes supposedly cast EXCEEDED the number of registered voters.

          The number of total votes cast should NEVER exceed the number of all the voters added together.

          The big question is the provisionals. My assumption is that they would not be adding in the provisional ballots unless they were certified. If these people had actually be registered does not mean they had already been counted in the number of registered voters or are they increasing the number of registered voter tally as each vote is certfied.

           

          by dmmteacher on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:33:57 AM PDT

    •  Sadly..

      I know a girl in NY who just voted Kerry and left the rest of the ballot blank (in Barend's district too!).. I don't know if this is very indicative.. she's 23 and just cared about getting Bush out, like many other young voters.

      by ragnark on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:08:34 PM PDT

      •  I think the point is

        She was 1 voter who recorded 1 presidential vote.
        as it should be.

        What Gray (I think) is saying would be equivalent to something along the lines of her 1 vote being recorded as to 2 votes for president even though she only had the one ballot.

        So if you have a total of 500 ballots cast with nothing more then the presidential nomination checked, how could there be 1000 votes cast for president from this district? That's the mysterious discrepancy that showing up in the numbers.

        If they broke overwhelmingly for Bush then he received these mystery votes and that gave him Florida.

        It's one thing to suppress the vote as a political strategy; it's another to add fake votes to the total.
        

        by Pescadero Bill on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 09:41:11 AM PDT

•  Vote Totals

  This does seem a little wierd! I just checked, you need to add in the vote totals for the other Prez candidates, which gives an overage of:

  +237522 more votes cast than there are voters.

  What the hell is going on here, I guess it is the new Diebold Math.

  by jeffawilson on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:01:04 PM PDT

  •  Vote totals

    I've added the vote totals in for other candidates, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.  The totals from the Acrobat file I referenced are 3,953,309 Bush, 3,572,099 Kerry, 61587 Other candidates combined.  Total reported turnout plus an estimate for Hernando County (from registered voters and statewide percentage turnout) adds up to 7,429,962.  That's a discrepancy of 157,033 votes, 2.11% over reported turnout.

    by Gray on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:18:18 PM PDT

•  Still trying, ever more desparately, to rally...

  ...support.

  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/5/175321/453

  by understandinglife on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:24:50 PM PDT

•  where the hell is the DNC, Kerry, Begala, Carville

  these people need to start making some noise. the media has already moved on.
  I'm very disappointed in this lay down and die, we must craft our message mentality.
  we were ripped off, again, and we shouldn't take it without a fight!
  this systematic fraud is just becoming more entrenched.

  by warbly on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:46:58 PM PDT

  •  100%

    where are they?
    what is going on?
    what do we know about Skull & Bones anyway?

    by nycnat on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:45:20 PM PDT

  •  gathering evidence

    If you're gonna come out and decry fraud, you better be damn well sure you're right. They need hard solid evidence, or else it will look bad and backfire. They probably investigating and exploring now. You can't have Kerry on TV saying "They found 3000 votes for Bush in Ohio!"

    by deminjapan on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 09:48:56 PM PDT

    •  I second that

      keep gathering.
      
      It is correct for Kerry to stay out for now. Let us do the ground work. I understand KE04 wants to hear what is going on. But if we gather enough data to support claims of fraud...let lose the dogs of war!
      
      If I remember, we have at the latest, Dec 12th.

      by Nicholas Phillips on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 10:46:55 PM PDT

      •  third that

        silence is our friend.  People are less likely to take due dillagince to cover their tracks if there is no fuss.  Let the certifications at the county level go on.  Once we have all the data we will argue if need be.

        Regards,
        Jamie

        by jamie ahmad on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 09:01:08 AM PDT

    •  Fraud

      It's NOT a matter of being dam sure before we call it fraud - it's a matter of a correct count - Bush may have actually won the election, but we need to know the true count - We need to know how much of a mandate there was - we need to know for statistical purposes - we need to know for our own demographic strategy - there are lots of reason for getting an accurate and honest count.
      Geez!

      by dmligon on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 12:20:15 PM PDT

•  Take a look...

  here. Just made this last night.

  by Sottilde on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:58:21 PM PDT

  •  your link

    doesn't work!

    by bushdemocrat on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:04:03 PM PDT

    •  Works now.

      Wasn't uploaded to exactly the right place. This is the new place.

      by Sottilde on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 09:58:15 PM PDT

•  Please secure all web data you find

  Please secure all web data you find;

  why & how:

  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/5/201039/952

  by ivote2004 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 05:59:52 PM PDT

•  Verify it yourself:

  Go to: Florida Department of State web site.  You will find two links, one for county reporting and another for U.S. President.  Summing up the county data (7,350,900 or, optimistically 7,460,000), does not total the sum of the presidental vote counts, 7,526,828.  So where did all the missing votes come from?

  It is clear from the table that all 67 counties in Florida are accounted for.

  What the heck?

  by aschweig on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:01:59 PM PDT

•  Read this

  http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4175

  This is an excellent look at some of what happened. It is not good that the material on this link and many others is not front page material on kos.

  Our work here means NOTHING if your votes don't mean anything. Many people here are acting like it's business as usual. It's not.

  Say voting is a card game we've been playing with for a couple of hundred years every Friday night.You win some, you lose some. Well new player Carl has slipped a marked deck into the game and he's winning all the time because we don't have a clue. We need to get a clue folks. Still playin' your best poker just ain't gonna do it. Carl and his pals will just continue to win attributing his wins to cultural war, lousy exit polls, lousy poll polls, and jes plain luck. You can't ever win this game until you get rid of the marked deck and throw Carl out of the game.  That begins with THIS ELECTION and electronic voting machines.

  I sympathise with all the concerned people on this and other related threads and with all the people out there doing the work on this. I am pissed at the business as usual attitude of many others. It's just bs.

  by moon in the house of moe on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:04:30 PM PDT

  •  There is Nothing Happening!

    In several posts, several writers have said (more or less): "well I imagine the big guys are on this and they are working behind the scenes like mad ... etc"

    Nothing could be further from the truth.  These guys are tired.  They are burned out.  They are frustrated.  And the do not want to play.  Who did I hear that from?  How 'bout "well informed sources" with top level access.  They are not doing anything now and they are not going to do anything later.

    In short, the opportunity to make this case is melting away right now like the snow of late spring.  It'll be gone on Sunday!

    What about all the planning?  What about all the lawyers?  What was that all about, anyway?

    by bob in ny on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:19:31 PM PDT

    •  There is no democratic party

      no movement, no nothing if this is not dealt with. The vote fraud stuff is popping up all over the place and may die a slow death relegated to activist and tinfoil land soon without high profile support. Our burned out, frustrated friend needs to play. Not playing sounds like spoiled shit to me. A friend in Iraq rallied people here at home  IN GENERAL, not just about voting fraud, but it still applies. saying 'You're tired, you're disillusioned and thinking about leaving the country? Are you getting mortars fired at you? That's how I spent my day. How did you spend yours?' And then a cry to battle, to not yield the neighborhood to the bullies who are using this passive agressive shit to drive us out. The above is a paraphrase but you get the idea.

      The studied indifference is pure bs.

      by moon in the house of moe on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:33:48 PM PDT

      •  There is no there there, it's true

        BUT I see enough righteous indignation flowing out of these computers these past few days that could fuel a nuclear reactior or two--the condensed pressure heated times 8 million disenfranchised voters named kelvin equals a whole lot of change. (Yeah, one lovely glass of merlot with dinner really helped.)

        How and where to begin.  Let's set priorities, use tools like the Kos to gather--just like we did against Sinclair.  Information is power, and we still have the internet.

        Chin up!  Because there is only one thing more depressing than what just occurred, and that's to let it continue. . . .

        by Einsteinia on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:57:45 PM PDT

    •  Trying with the only resources I have to change...

      ....that fact.

      Please add your shoulder to the wheel:
      http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/5/175321/453

      We are the ones who must make it happen but I have not yet found the way to bring the need to act, forcefully, in a coordinated manner, to the forefront of Daily Kos, and this is the only forum that I think can get behind this fast enough.

      Please do whatever you can. Maybe if we have a string of Diaries, one after another, proclaiming a call to action focused on the central issue that no one's vote mattered in 2000 and 2004 because the entire system was able to be manipulated.

      I call it the "Chateau Lafite Sewage" problem -- one spoon of raw sewage in a barrel of Chateau Lafite Rothschild and you've got a barrel of sewage. Same applies for fraud, of any scale, in an election.

      Not only does Bush lack a mandate, he is illegitmate and no amount of oaths and benedictions can change that fact.

      In a Democracy, each person has the right to equivalent access to a ballot, each vote is accounted. Anything less is a sham and we all know it.

      So, why are we letting it happen, AGAIN?

      by understandinglife on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:36:51 PM PDT

    •  Really???

      By saying this, you are destroying the last thread of hope I have.  I hope your "well-informed" sources are misinformed, or spreading disinformation.  I find it mysterious that this issue is so dead in the water--by Kos, Atrios, and everywhere else.  At least there should be a word by Kos saying why he is NOT talking about the issue, but it's being treated like it doesn't exist.  I keep thinking about a post by Atrios the other day, "Something is coming, stay tuned."  My hope might be bordering on delusion, but it's more comforting than the thought of another Bush term.

      Kerry might be tired, the inner circle might be wiped out, but they had 10,000 lawyers at the ready.  There's got to be a couple of Woodward and Bernsteins in the lot.  This is the kind of thing that lawyers live for.

      by Ash Tree on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 09:51:05 PM PDT

      •  that Atrios thing was nothing

        he had nothing coming, I forget what it was, but it was nothing

        by HariSeldon on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 10:48:54 PM PDT

    •  Exactly!

      This is a citizens battle. It's up to us. Don't just assume it is automatically happening.

      www.blackboxvoting.org

      They are organizing the effort. They need money and activism and other help.

      by bejammin075 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 11:48:32 PM PDT

  •  I Agree

    That this is malfeasance and chicanery on a cosmic scale.  It just makes me wonder what Al Gore and John Kerry were really up to?  Why did they both just gave in to bogus vote counts?  It feels like a total rip off.

    by super simian on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:22:36 PM PDT

    •  Al Gore didn't give in...

      He can't fight the Supremes.

      by nephalim on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:07:48 PM PDT

      •  yeah, no kidding

        Regardless of whether they had the jurisdiction to step in, he's just a departing VP by their actions. Their decision made his opinion on the matter moot. In some parallel world, George Bush tapes a concession speech because he's just the Governor of Texas.

        by hatter on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:26:03 PM PDT

    •  ugh

      That puts thoughts in my head about this party and this country that scare me too much to think about.

      The line between my rational reasoning and my tinfoil hat is starting to blur because it's starting to get hard to tell what is NOT a real possibility.  

      UGH

      by tlh lib on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:14:45 PM PDT

•  Not so wrong

  I voted in Florida, and did not vote in some races I had no clue on who the people were.

  You don't have to fill out all selections offered. Just the ones you want to.

  by Great Hunter on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:12:20 PM PDT

  •  Please see my earlier post...

    The problem arises because the two vote totals for president listed under 'U.S. President' and the county breakdown don't agree, even when reasonable adjustments are made.  See my earlier post and check it out yourself.

    by aschweig on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:33:17 PM PDT

•  these don't add up either in Palm Beach County

  From Theresa LePew's own website:

  http://www.pbcelections.org/ElectionResults/2004/General/Gen04_dtl.htm

  Registration and Turnout
  Palm Beach County

  Completed Precincts: 688 of 695 (98.99%)    

     Reg/Turnout     Percent    
  Total Registration  729,575  
  Total Turnout  454,427  62.29%  
  Election Day Turnout  404,596  55.46%  
  Absentee Turnout  49,831  6.83%  
  Provisional Turnout  0  0.00%  

  PRESIDENT/VICE PRESIDENT
  Completed Precincts: 688 of 695 (98.99%)  
    Vote Count Percent
  REP - George W. Bush 211,894 39.03%
  DEM - John F. Kerry 327,698 60.37%
  CPF - Michael A. Peroutka 575 0.11%
  LIB - Michael Badnarik 616 0.11%
  GRE - David Cobb 226 0.04%
  SWP - James Harris 155 0.03%
  SPF - Walter F. Brown 106 0.02%
  REF - Ralph Nader 1,565 0.29%
  Total 542,835 100.00%

  454427 turnout, 542835 votes for President....thats a lot of people voting twice, where's Mayor Daley when you need him?

  by route66 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:16:46 PM PDT

  •  absolutely amazing and awesome

    It doesn't have to be proof.  Proof is not required.  A presumption of malfeasance is plenty. But ... I dunno, I guess they are tired.  Maybe they are too old?

    by bob in ny on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:21:45 PM PDT

  •  Early Voting

    Where is early voting counted?  Absentee?  Election Day?  Surely they'd have it on the total votes column, but where is it?

    by sjd372 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:27:40 PM PDT

    •  recent article quotes LePore early voting estimate

      There are about 744,000 registered voters in Palm Beach County. LePore will release an official voter turnout prediction later this week. But about 520,800 people can be expected to vote, applying the 70 percent turnout among registered voters from the 2000 election.

      Through early and absentee voting, about 125,000 people will have cast ballots before Election Day, according to LePore's estimates. That means that roughly 400,000 people could vote Tuesday in Palm Beach County.

      With 4,300 touch-screen machines scattered across 692 precincts, an average of 93 people would vote per machine. The polls are open from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., so voters will have 7 minutes and 45 seconds each to cast their ballots -- if everyone is to be squeezed in.

      http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-pgridlock28oct28,0,7324348.story?coll=sfla-h ome-headlines

      by route66 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:37:37 PM PDT

  •  look now

    Now it's:
    Last Updated: November 5, 2004 6:33 PM

    Registration and Turnout
    Palm Beach County

    Completed Precincts: 695 of 695 (100.00%)        
          Reg/Turnout       Percent  
    Total Registration     729,575   
    Total Turnout    547,340    75.02%
    Election Day Turnout    404,666    55.47%
    Absentee Turnout    141,633    19.41%
    Provisional Turnout    1,041    0.14%

    >> The Absentee Turnout ROSE by 100'000 votes... o_O

    by rukkus on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:33:06 PM PDT

    •  chirp chirp

      Hm. Maybe they're just plugging in the absentee totals as they come in.

      (Yes, I've screamed at every other devil's advocate in this thread, and now this is how I chirp in)

      by hatter on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:34:33 PM PDT

•  Buh...

  How do we know that the county numbers just aren't as up-to-date as the statewide numbers?

  by tunesmith on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:20:29 PM PDT

•  look at it

  Last Updated: November 4, 2004 12:31 PM

  The state gets the numbers from the individual counties, certified.

  by route66 on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:21:25 PM PDT

•  Where is Terry McCauliff???

  Shouldn't he be getting involved in this? Seems like after all that effort, they might express at least a passing interest in the possibility of fraud..

  by yojon on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:26:30 PM PDT

•  Are you taking screenshots? n/t

  by bcb on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:45:22 PM PDT

•  Okay

  Let's all take another deep breath.  Last night in the Ohio diaries and threads some people  suggested that the early concession was a strategy.  They did say "all the votes would count and we could count on them to fight for every vote."  I think we can assume we have a right to demand that Kerry and Edwards fight this one through, and they may well be doing that behind the scenes. Concession is a formality.  Kerry was the candidate, and if he is found to have won, he has to serve (in spite of all the good options we have given him on this list  --windsurfing naked, etc.)

  An inquiry may not win the election.  But it could highlight the fact that our elections are stolen.  And we are about to take on Fallujah so we can set up an election there?  This makes me ill.

  by donag on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:53:02 PM PDT

  •  We have grounds for an inquiry

    These pieces of fact finding are grounds for an inquiry -- a Very Urgent inquiry.  And there is no downside.  If the findings are that somehow this is how people really voted, then good for us.  But if there is deliberate, systematic, widespread fraud, then someone should go to Jail! (not Yale!)

    See the discussion in this diary -- Completed Florida Comparison by County Kerry-Gore/Bush Votes.
     2000/2004  and look at this amazing spreadsheet!
    

    by bob in ny on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:50:29 PM PDT

•  I Would Like Everybody

  to ask and answer this ONE question.

  HOW THE HELL DO WE ASK PEOPLE TO GOTV IF THEY DON'T THINK THE VOTES WILL COUNT?

  by mattman on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 06:53:27 PM PDT

  •  Precisely, thus....

    ....please request Markos and others to organize a comprehensive, massive rally to demand a fair National Election and do it before 12 Dec 2004.

    My pleas are located here:
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/5/175321/453

    My humility is not false; I am actually willing to humiliate myself by being an absolute pain in the butt about this, on this site, because I have no resources to launch this effort other than begging the leaders of this community to make the contacts with leaders of MoveOn, DNC, Kerry, Obama, Dean and go, go, go.....

    Thank you.

    by understandinglife on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:17:20 PM PDT

    •  MoveOn

      have you emailed/called MoveOn.

      I don't get the silence. I don't get the silence from Kerry, Edwards, Dean, Gore, Clinton, Carville, Boies, MoveOn, ACT, NAACP, Kos, DNC, MacCauliffe etc.

      WTF? all worried about their futures? their futures mean nothing if the vote is fixed/fraudulent. (not you Kos, your future is bright)

      But come on Markos, post something...anything, even if its just "i think all of this talk is well-intentioned but delusional."

      by BrooklynBoy on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:53:52 PM PDT

      •  To repeat what i've said several times...

        What the hell is going on with the DNC and the Kerry Camp? OK, the Kerry Camp is burnt out, tired, he wants to save his political ass by not having what would be percieved as an attempt to "steal" (try "fix") the election. But the DNC for gods sake?! Any advocate on this topic?!

        It seems to be left to RALPH NADER. He is forming a demand for a full recount in over 30 states. He had a fax number for protest signatures, darn I don't have it.

        WHERE THE HELL IS EVERYONE ON THIS?! Are they are scared silly or what?! Bush stealing the election is frightening enough, the silence from the dems is far more frightening.

        by nephalim on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:04:15 PM PDT

        •  Sending protest signatures to Nader

          I just called the Nader phone number listed on their website and actually got somebody.  They said they will post info on the site tomorrow telling us where to send signatures.

          I asked what time tomorrow.  She said probably about noon.

          by Sycamore on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:51:56 PM PDT

      •  I have emailed a bunch of folk...

        ....silence.

        Kossacks continue to vote their support and recommend the two diaries, but, no action.

        So, I've taken a first step in drafting a simple manifesto for 12 Dec 2004:
        =============
No one has been elected and no one will be elected, until we the People of the United States of America, are provided universal access to the same ballot format, until each eligible adult has had the opportunity to register and vote, until each ballot has been recorded and every ballot stored by the Library of Congress.

        This is our demand.

        I want to see a call to the citizens of America to come to either their State Capital or the Mall in DC on 12 Nov. I want to see not just the 55+million who voted for Kerry, but all those who voted for Bush and all those eligible to vote to face, on that day, the pivotal decision of their life and the future of this Nation. I want them to answer the question: Are we a Democracy?

        If so, then I want them to demand fair, equivalent access to a ballot, to the unambiguous recording of each ballot and to the preservation of all ballots so that future generations, if ever tempted to mess with the franchise, have a repository of what those of us who honor the brave patriots of the past 228 years did on 12 Dec 2004 -- we stood together, all Americans, and we made certain we are all truly equal in the most crucial, most fundamental act that binds us, our respect for each other's choice of those who we elect.
================
        I will post this as soon as I pass the current 24 h period because I already have two diaries.

        by understandinglife on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:04:24 PM PDT

      •  I think the silence

        is more about all of these people weighing the situation VERY carefully before going public with any accusations. I'm sure that every piece of these puzzles is being scrutinized before being acted upon. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but we can guess that they're not taking naps right now.

        by The Mockingbird on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 08:13:33 PM PDT

        •  I think the silence is FEAR

          of being tar and feathered as a paranoid conspiracist.  In politics, credibility is one's most precious asset, BUT

          what's absolutely insane is to NOT question why 1/3 of our nation are forced to relinquish their sacred Constitutional right to vote to unverifiable partisan republican owned voting gizmos.  

          It's not paranoid, It's logical. . . .  

          by Einsteinia on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 09:09:21 PM PDT

          •  Well, since I'm not a politician and never will be

            They can pour all the tar and feathers on me they like. I'm just an American citizen trying to defend our Democracy and know that we have between now and 13 Dec 2004 to make a difference.

            A President was not elected on 2 Nov 2004; that does not happen until the EC acts, as you all undoubtedly know. The interval until then is when we either demand a fair National Election or we record in history and for all the world to see -- We The People Just Didn't Give a Shit About Our Franchise.

            by understandinglife on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 05:34:28 AM PDT

            •  I'm with you!

              I've been going ballistic about the machines over the past year--sounding like Chicken Little to many--but now am getting many calls saying I was right. (A little late, but not too late to act, as you say.)

              We've put an enormous amount of energy into GOTV, yet we can never win as long as we're forced to accept results from these machines.  

              I've posted this crazy thought elsewhere on the Kos, but how about: "No Verifiability, No Votey?"  Why is the burden of proof on the constitutency to uncover the shady practices of obviously crooked machines?  By analogy, when an accounting firm adds up 6 and 6 and gets 666, they perform an audit (and aren't accused of being conspiracists) and they certainly don't try to pretend the 666 figure is true until someone unearths where the errors lie.  

              What would the results of this election look like if we threw out all the areas using uncredible votes, while we continue the audits.  

              Yes, I'll get behind your petition, or whatever to demand our Constitutional rights not be shredded in the name of being gracious.  Have we not learned anything from 2000?

              Let's do it!  (And let's give money to Blackboxvoting.org to continue the audits.)

              by Einsteinia on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 09:14:24 AM PDT

        •  Enough rope to hang themselves.

          If we look back at the Kerry team's strategy during the campaign, they never gave knee-jerk reactions.  They let the republican media machine play out it's own storyline, and then when a definite republican stance was decided upon Kerry pounced on that story with FACTS.

           Let's keep in mind,  the republicans always throw out numerous storylines to muddy things and then they choose the one which best suits them in the immediate- think al Qa Qaa- they had six or seven explanations running simultaneously, and were eventually forced to choose one - that the explosives were missing when we arrived in Baghdad.  

          The republican/media line here is that Bush won in a landslide, with cultural conservatives  giving him a broad mandate to continue taking the nation in the direction of Bush policies at home and abroad.  "The people of Merka have spoken, and they want me, and they want Biblical values to be reestablished as the root of this nation."  
          Half of us, however, know that this is a load of bunk.
          Kerry knows it too.  And I'm sure Senator Kerry knows that these election results are not part of the 'reality based community'.  

          It's still early, although I am panicked that time is running out to get any traction with this.  I don't think K/E has laid it to rest- I do not.

          I think it's about giving Bush/Cheney/Rove/Hughes/Limbaugh/Hannity enough rope to hang themselves.  They are quickly painting themselves into a very small corner in their rush to control the post-election debate.  Kerry has taken himself out of this narrative completely...and I don't believe it's by accident.  Kerry knows things we don't.   Perhaps I'm naive, but I feel that we should trust him- once more.

          Kos, Atrios et al, have thier reasons I'm sure.  We need not question them.  We are here having these discussions, we are not being asked to stop.  Let's see how this plays over the next few hours/days.  
          Joint Session must certify Bush's "win".  Pressure your senators to make sure we don't have a repeat of 2000 when none would challenge.

          by Voodoo on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:41:20 AM PDT

          •  Oh I do hope so!

            I had the same thought as yours, but I didn't know if I was dreaming. . . .  It does make a lot of sense--catching them off guard.

            by Einsteinia on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 09:17:59 AM PDT

          •  My Senators

            I will call my Senators on Monday morning for sure.  It seems the pressure is on we voters to keep this outrage going - and I'm going to try to do my part.  I welcome this diary and appreciate the work being done by the Florida posters.

            by dmligon on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 12:28:37 PM PDT

•  Voting Machines counting backwards

  I think this hassle was related to the machines counting backwards...

  by rukkus on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:03:23 PM PDT

•  Similar discrepancies in NC

  pointed out in an earlier diary

  here

  Supposedly 11000 votes were cast by nonexistent voters in Craven County.
  I really doubt this is an isolated problem.
  This is just absurd.

  by wilderness wench on Fri Nov 05, 2004 at 07:04:03 PM PDT

•  Check this out...Shows how Dems. supposedly voted