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Cribbing off Atrios:
Yesterday:
Bush introduced Mike and Sharla Hintz, a couple from Clive, whom he said benefited from his tax plan.

Last year, because of the enhanced the child tax credit, they received an extra $1,600 in their tax refund, Bush said. With other tax cuts in the bill, they saved $2,800 on their income taxes.

They used the money to buy a wood-burning stove to more efficiently heat their home, made some home improvements and went on a vacation to Minnesota, the president said.

"Next year, maybe they'll want to come to Texas," Bush quipped.

Mike Hintz, a First Assembly of God youth pastor, said the tax cuts also gave him additional money to use for health care.

He said he supports Bush's values.

"The American people are starting to see what kind of leader President Bush is. People know where he stands," he said.

"Where we are in this world, with not just the war on terror, but with the war with our culture that's going on, I think we need a man that is going to be in the White House like President Bush, that's going to stand by what he believes.

and today...
A Des Moines youth pastor is charged with the sexual exploitation of a child.

KCCI learned that the married father of four recently turned himself in to Johnston police.

Rev. Mike Hintz was fired from the First Assembly of God Church, located at 2725 Merle Hay Road, on Oct. 30. Hintz was the youth pastor there for three years.

Police said he started an affair with a 17-year-old in the church youth group this spring.

It's bad enough these "values" charlatans are moral degenerates. They have to try and foist their false morality down the rest of our throats. Bennett, Bakker, Swaggart, Limbaugh, and the rest of the hypocritical moralistic gang need to get their own house in order before they preach their brand of cynical morality on the rest of us.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:44 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  And (4.00)
    Bennett, Bakker, Swaggart, Limbaugh, and the rest of the hypocritical moralistic gang need to get their own house in order before they preach their brand of cynical morality on the rest of us.

    Don't forget O'Reilly!!!!!

    Fight the American Taliban

    by pontificator on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:37:43 AM PST

  •  George W. Bush (none)
    Head of the Hypocritican Party

    Rubus Eradicandus Est.

    by Randomfactor on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:39:11 AM PST

    •  That sounds like it has something (none)
      to do with edecine to me...

      Let the word go forth From this time and place To friend and foe alike That the torch has been passed To a new generation of Americans.

      by TheGryphon on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:39:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Seriously.... (4.00)
      Let's move this guy to the center stage as a prime example of supply-side Jesus freaks their hypocrisy.

      Then use this story as a platform for exposing the fact that 'red' states have higher teen pregnancy and divorce rates. Let people know they don't back up their talk with action.

      The SCLM is all about the 'moral' values story without doing any digging. Let's do it for them. Here's one of the 'moral' voter - a pedophile.

      Move this guy out there and hope someone picks up on it. This is can be one opening to exposing the hypocrisy in the mainstream media.

      •  The narative should be.... (4.00)
        ..... as liberal folk we don't want government to foist 'moral' standards on everyone. We expect that people will make mistakes and also expect that people will correct them and move on. Its something called personal responsibility and its something that DOESN'T need government.
        When we stray, we know that we have the inner strength to bring ourselves back in line. The belief come from an abiding faith in our fellow citizens and in ourselves. We can make the right choices without government. We know we possess the strength.

        'Moral' values voters are weak when it comes to taking personal responisblity. They don't trust their parenting to overcome the influence of television. They don't trust their moral grounding to keep them from adultery. They don't trust their resolve or self control to stay away from drugs and liquor. They don't trust their children to heed their advice about sex. They are weak because they can't follow their own moral code. They are weak because they can't follow God' moral code. Do they really think that imposing another check will solve theor problems?????

        Summary:
        Liberals - strong and reality based
        Conservative - weak and <insert synonym for delusion> based  

        •  Wow! (4.00)
          You said it.  I've been wondering about exactly that for a few weeks now. I've been running into (and know from the past) Rs that are really into all sorts of crazy sex games(or used to be totally wild and promiscious), into or were into drugs, are big drinkers and really into gambling or poker.  So I wonder WTF?  

          I think you're absolutely right that they don't trust themselves to make the right moral decisions for themselves and their families and can't fathom that others can and that we don't have to be strict and repressive about it.

          This is a good meme.  Moralists are weak and lack an inner core and don't trust their moral compass.

          Thanks for sending the conversation down this path.

        •  Conservative - weak and <> (none)
          'based on mendacity'
        •  isn't this where your faith is supposed to help (none)
          Isn't your faith supposed to make you STRONGER and better able to resist temptation? Not WEAKER?

          Don't you pray for STRENGTH, not weakness? Don't you pray for WISDOM, not foolishness?

          Either they're not praying to the right higher power, or their prayers are being ignored. Or maybe they're too busy being hypocrits to pray in the first place.

          •  maybe... (none)
            sorry in advance to those that have daughters...

            he prayed to receive blessings in the form of young nookie?

            instead of the 72 virgins that greet you in heaven he wanted some of that here on this earth - oh wait different religion - or is it?

            at least the Daily Show has to pick this up - I dont have TV (I should pray for free cable)

      •  Call a spade a spade (4.00)
        Let's not overstate things here and get hysterical. The guy (Mintz) is definitely a hypocrite, but I hardly think having an affair with a 17 year old can be defined as pedophilia. Let's not be guilty of the same hysterical, all blue state people are evil rhetoric. The guy screwed up and his pontification makes him a hypocrite, but let's call a spade a spade.
        •  He was her pastor! (4.00)
          Come on. She's 17, he's an authority figure and spiritual guide in her church and you think it's borderline?  

          You're talking power, sex, and religion here and that's an electric combination.  As an adult first, a pastor second, and an authority figure third, he needs to be completely upright and responsible in his interactions with his charges. Anything else is criminal.

          •  sounds familiar (none)
            To the attacks on Clinton.

            "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin

            by bluestateLIBertarian on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:04:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Was Monica only 17? (none)
              ?

              Stop the war! Draft Bush voters!

              by NoAlternative on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:37:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nope (none)
                but the argument that Clinto, like this so called pastor, was in a positon of power. For the sake of argument, if this girl was a few months oleder would there still be this outrage from the kossacks?

                "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin

                by bluestateLIBertarian on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:42:01 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, he is married, and a Pastor. (none)
                   and someone who voted for W and told the rest of us too because of the moral assault on our nation.  Also she isn't a few months older and if Clinton had done that even I would have called for impeachment.  It is actually against the law, and should be in my view.

                  Stop the war! Draft Bush voters!

                  by NoAlternative on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:46:21 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  agreed (none)
                  Age isn't the important issue, nor is power. The real issue is cherry-picking which "crimes" the moral police get enraged over. This guy is probably not going to be a big deal. IN fact, the entire catholic church, which is probably more influential than Clinton ever was, and which committed thousands of acts of real pedophilia, and it was less of a big deal than Clinton's affair.

                  It's a witch hunt, and the rules aren't evenly applied.

                  •  Cherry-Picking is a subset of the problem (none)
                    The combination of Age, Power, Sex, Infuence, Responsibility, and Authority are the problem here and all to often these moralists seem to cross it.  

                    Borrowing (and bastardizing) from both Freud and Lakoff, it seems that these folks with strict parent frames are totally repressed and act out in incredibly deviant ways.  

                    I think the fundamental issue may be one of societal mental health.

                    •  yes, the crazies will eventually act that way (none)
                      that's why striving for a reality basis is healthier, safer, and fundamentally more ethical.

                      Members of the National Academy of Sciences, the most atheistic group of people in the country, are also the least likely to commit a crime.

                      •  That's right (none)
                        There is no scientific proof of God. or the Loch Ness Monster or the Tooth Fairy or astrology or psychic power or Santa Clause or UFOs or ghosts.

                        It's all crap yet people still buy it.

                        Lemmings

                        Where can I get a "Don't blame me, I voted for Kerry" bumper sticker?

                        by bobinson on Wed Dec 08, 2004 at 08:49:52 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Scientific proof: Ha! (none)
                          They believe in things that have scientific proof the LEAST! It's Bizarro World! There's a heaven, hell, angels flying around, and an omnipotent being who loves us and tortures us, all unprovable, and all making you a better person if you believe it. However, geology, evolution, physics, these are all only theories which are to be shunned if they conflict with the narrative surrounding the prior unverifiable, untestable beliefs.

                          Once you start believing in things that can never be proved or disproved, you're on the slippery slope toward insanity. For some people, it's no problem because life is full of mysteries, but for others it's very very dangerous.

                •  He is a Youth Pastor, So yes (none)
                  Game over. And this should make the mainstream news. But it won't.

                  The sad thing is that in the US we really seem to mix up power and sex. When you add an adult to that mix with teens and pre-teens who are in very vulnerable developmental stages you have serious problems. Witness the catholic church scandals.

                  •  Bingo. (none)
                    I had the misfortune to be in the Assemblies of God for a number of years in my misspent youth- and I'll tell you, it seemed to me that they were second only to the Catholic church for sexual scandals, including those involving minors. 'A background check? Of course not! Are you saying you don't trust the upright ness of this 'Godly' man?'

                    Glad I'm outta there, and so are my kids.

                    "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." -Karl Marx

                    by Lainie on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 02:40:21 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Damm Right! (none)
              and Clinton was way out of bounds.  Did it require an independent investigator and impeachment charges? No.

              Is Clinton a slimeball with no respect for his daughter or his wife? Yes.

              Should a pastor ever be involved with a member of their congregation that they provide counseling, guidance, or supervison to?  No Fricking way!!!!

              Should an adult (for arguments sake let's say over the age of 24/25) ever sleep with a teen or a child?  No fricking way!!!

          •  I have a 17 year old daughter (4.00)
            If her minister did this to her I'd take a chain saw to his nuts.
        •  epebophilia (none)

          Technically, lusting after teenagers might be known as epebophilia.  I first learned that word when the Roman Catholic Church's spinners were trying to keep the words "pedophile" and "priest" far apart in the news.  The trick didn't work, and rightly so.  

          The laws of the state of Iowa are fairly clear -- as a 17-year-old the youth is a minor.  Sometimes statutory rape and pedophilia laws are bent a bit by codes or the judge so that a HS senior on October 27, 1986 won't get sent up for screwing another senior born on December 18, 1986 after this Friday's game.  This bending does not apply to an adult Mintz's age.    

          It's sad, but the louder an institution preaches on morals these days, the more dangerous it is for children and youth.    

      •  Pedophile (none)
        Careful... the girl is 17.

        Latching your criticism of the administration onto a prudish Texas law seems unwise.

      •  you probaley (none)
        will not get the lazy lame mainstream media to cover it but you could float it to air america , Mike moloy goes nuts over these bible thuming hypocrites and he is nationaaly sindicated ..

        http://www.airamericaradio.com/listen.asp

  •  Well..... (4.00)
    ..... this guy Minz put himself up there, front and center. I'd feel bad making a fuss about a random individual, but this guy invited the scrutiny. Expose the hypocrisy and shame him I say!
  •  You're shitting me! (4.00)
    I want to see this headline in the Liberal Media:

    "Bush touts family values of pedophile"

    But since we only have an SCLM, the LTE's I write will have to do.

    "When you trade your values for the hope of winning, you end up losing and having no values, so you keep losing." -- Howard Dean, "You Have The Power"

    by Muboshgu on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:40:47 AM PST

  •  No surprise. (4.00)
    They're not just trying to impose their brand of morality on the rest of us. They're trying to impose it on themselves, too.

    They know they're weak. They're voting to impose an order they wish existed. The way things are supposed to be.

    When they stray, they want to be punished. When they see others stray, they want to see order imposed. The actions we see as hypocrisy are no surprise to them. They'd rather vote to impose order on themselves and suffer the consequences when they stray from that order than do what they believe liberals do: give up all hope and live hedonistic lives.

    •  what? (none)
      That is the most convoluted, irrational explanation I've ever heard.

      You don't happen to be a member of the Taliban, do you? That's THEIR logic. I can't control MYSELF, so I have to control YOU.

      •  You expected straight logic? (none)
        Remember, we're working from a template that includes and encourages deathbed conversions.
      •  No, it actually makes sense (4.00)
        I mean, why do you think that so many priests are gay?  Because they are so disgusted with what they perceive as a sickness that they resolve to remove themselves from all temptation by becoming completely celibate.  They attempt to cure their "disease" with total immersion in, literally, an order.

        It's an interesting theory: right-wing values = intense self-loathing?

        •  That certainly accounts for some (none)
          wingers; others, of course, see themselves as moral arbiters, capable and inerrant critics of the behavior of others, due to their own unself-doubted rectitude and "relationship with the Lord".

           

          "Never mind the trick, what the hell's the point?" Joseph Heller, Catch-22

          by wozzle on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 01:42:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  But probably true (4.00)
        If you have been paying attention you have noticed all the posts detailing that the Red States lead in parameters of immorality such as:

        High Teen Age pregnancy rates

        High Divorce rates

        High Abortion rates

        Welfare status (vis a vis the federal government)

        Since these people are awash in these problems they see them as more important than us Blue Staters. But unfortunately, they also lag in the most important aspect of all, personal responsibility. They elect people that tell them it is all 'Hollywood's fault' and they are the victims of the 'gay agenda'. They project the Blue States as havens of immorality when in reality the GPS coordinates for Sodom And Gomorah are in their own backyards.

        •  I don't think that's it (none)
          I think it's the 'I'm saved so I'll go to heaven' mentality.

          God will forgive me, so that's all that matters.

          I prefer the 'what goes around comes around' meme myself. Promotes much better behavior.

    •  That's why they need a stern father (none)
      Who's your daddy?

      Reject the Red State/Blue State Model
      It's a wedge!

      by lapin on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:53:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Reformed Alcoholics (none)
      Both W and Tom De Lay are reformed alcoholics. The Rise of the South said that nothing felt better than a fire and brimstone sermon targetting sinners after a Saturday night of hard drinking.  This just tranfers that from the pew to the poll.

      It also fits in with the whole 12 Step thing about admitting to a Higher Power.  Only here the Higher Power is not God but the Right Wing and W.  Somehow, I suspect that Bill W. never had George W. in mind when he started Alcoholics Anonymous.

      •  The Narrative........... (4.00)
        ..... as liberal folk we don't want government to foist 'moral' standards on everyone. We expect that people will make mistakes and also expect that people will correct them and move on. Its something called personal responsibility and its something that DOESN'T need government.

        When we stray, we know that we have the inner strength to bring ourselves back in line. The belief come from an abiding faith in our fellow citizens and in ourselves. We can make the right choices without government. We know we possess the strength.

        'Moral' values voters are weak when it comes to taking personal responisblity. They don't trust their parenting to overcome the influence of television. They don't trust their moral grounding to keep them from adultery. They don't trust their resolve or self control to stay away from drugs and liquor. They don't trust their children to heed their advice about sex. They are weak because they can't follow their own moral code. They are weak because they can't follow God' moral code. Do they really think that imposing another check will solve theor problems?????

        Summary:
        Liberals - strong and reality based
        Conservative - weak and <insert synonym for delusion> based  

        •  Flight from evil (4.00)
          Some born-again or otherwise conservative Christians believe that once they have officially accepted Jesus as their savior they no longer contain "evil".  And yet unconsciously, or even consciously, they continue to have those same impulses.

          Their thinking goes like this: "But, hey, that evil can't be coming from me because I have been purified.  That evil is coming from those bad people over there, those Arabs and homosexuals and Hollywood celebrities and my Democrat neighbors."

          It's easier to feel hatred for these stereotyped groups than to examine and tolerate the self-hatred that may have led you to sign up to be born again.

          And of course Satan is always doing naughty things and causing temptation as well. And there is always the thought that maybe those danged liberals are having a lot of fun in their morals-free way.

          The more fiercely you reject your own dark side, the likelier you are to project it onto others.

          But it's important to keep in mind that there are many sincere Christians who understand that they are imperfect.  They're just trying to do their best and to follow the words of Jesus.  

          Liberals can be hypocrites too.

          But Bush asked for this embarrassment: pander to dogs and you might wind up with fleas.

          •  The best explanation for "born again" (4.00)
            and extremists of any religion was from a friend who said they all seem to have addictive personalities and are very obsessive. Hence the jump from alchoholism or drug abuse etc etc straight to becomeing born again, or snake handlers, or islaamic terrorists, or extreme zionists et al.

            Something i found even more telling came from the most self centered, politically unaware person ive ever known. She said "the first time i looked at Bush i could tell he had fetal alchohol syndrome. I know people like that. Who'd want someone like that for president?"

            A possibly congenitally mentally defective alchohol and cocain abuser who never succeeded at anything he tried in life despite every advantage the world could handle him. And he's the now-legitimate president.

            I think i slipped into bizarro world somehow.

            The Democratic party needs to adopt its own moral and values principles (clawed) My other Drunken ravings

            by cdreid on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:09:01 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I think we need a multi pronged attack (none)
          In addition to attacking them on their moral weakness, we should take a page from Karl Rove's playbook and hit them where they really live.

          John Kerry's Vietnam experience and his status as a veteran were defining elements of his own self-identity. In his mind, this image was unshakeable, which was one reason he built so much of his campaign around it. So what did Rove do? He tore it to shreds - very publicly.

          I think we should do the same thing to Bush and all the other right-wing reactionary pseudo-Christians. I'd love to see some moderate religious leaders stand up and point out the many, many ways in which these people are actively undoing the work of the Christ whose teachings they claim to follow. Attack their Christianity head on, and keep hitting them on it until Republican=Pharisee in everyone's eyes. Run TV commercials talking about some of the things Bush has done and, at the end say something like, "What would Jesus do? NOT THIS."

          These people are not Christians. Jesus would be embarrassed to be in the same room with them.

    •  Stop me before I sin again is their mantra (none)
      Just recently Senator Sam Brownback held hearings regarding internet porn and said that a couple of buisness friends of his admitted that they tried to limit their itme alone in hotel rooms to avoid the temptation to wtach the pay-per-view skin flicks.

      The expsoure of sinner does not in the minds of the theocons discredit their views; it paradoxically re-inforces them by showing how "wicked" the world is and tragic that the Satan has claimed another victim (who in reality is the perpetrator.)

      The theocon/fundamentalist mindset is a wonder to behold.  

      •  Sounds familiar. (none)
        Of the men I know, the Christian ones are by far the most likely to be into porn and strippers, and of my female friends, the Christian ones are the most likely to consider that it is normal and to be expected that men will be into porn and strippers.  I don't get it at all.
        •  Can you please (none)
          be more specific when you say "Christian?"

          I think I know what you meant and it wasn't to tar all Christians with the same brush, was it?

          So if you could please add "right-wing" or similar appelation to the term "Christian" we would all appreciate it very much.

          These people DO NOT represent the majority of Christians and they DO NOT represent the teachings of Jesus Christ.

          Thank you.

          •  No, specificity wasn't in order there. (none)
            That is, I didn't specify what kind of Christians because the people I'm talking about are drawn from more than one denomination, more than one region, more than one background, class, education level.  The only way I'd specify would be to say that the people I know who are most likely to be into porn and strippers are men for whom being Christian is an important part of their self-conception.  And one interesting thing is that these are not people in whom I'd call it hypocrisy.  They don't see these habits as ideal or as something that they want to take too far, but they see it as reasonably normal and healthy, a better way to indulge whatever urges they're indulging than by having pre-marital sex or committing adultery.  So while they don't represent all Christians (who does?), neither was I implying that they were on the level of the guy in the story at the top of the thread.  I personally have varying levels of comfort with their varying styles of consumption of sex industry products, but these are people I'm fond of and in many cases respect.
          •  How about (none)
            pseudo-Christians?  Because they're not really Christians at all.  They do not follow any of Christ's teachings (separation of church and state, acceptance of all of us as God's children, give your money to the poor, love your neighbor as yourself - well maybe they take that one a little too literally).  These are the biggest bunch of hypocrites on the faces of the earth.  To call them Christian is unfair those who really do try to be follow what he preached.  
            •  Psychologists call it (none)
              "religiosity".  Not merely having a religion, but being strongly involved and singularly committed to practicing a given religion.  (Not living it, mind you, but practicing it--dogmatically adhering to it, loudly believing in it to the exclusion of all else, insisting that other faiths are wrong, that sort of thing.)  It's not necessarily the denomination or sect, it's the way the person uses it.

              High religiosity has been associated with an increased risk of sexual abuse within families, for instance.  

        •  what's wrong with porn and strippers? (none)
          I ask this as a female atheist who happens to appreciate both.

          But I see your point about the hypocrisy...tar and feather the women strippers as hell-bound sinners, give a "pass" to the men because, you know, guys will always be guys...

          Ask Copernicus about pushing limits.

          by Xray the Enforcer on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:31:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nothing inherently wrong. (none)
            I think in practice I find them kind of unpleasant, but that's much more a product of the ways they're produced in our culture at this moment in time than it is anything inherent in sex products.  For me, last time I looked at porn, what I really thought was "brazilian bikini wax, ow; breast implants, ow; that pose, ow" so it seemed, as I say, unpleasant.  But I'm not at all opposed in theory - that's not my feminism.
            •  Not all porn is created equal... (none)
              I agree with your critique--if you want something where the folks actually seem to be having FUN getting it on, there's a hilarious X-rated comic by Phil Foglio called XXXenophile. (Warning: Phil draws all females with silly spherical breasts, but at least they have personalities, too.)
          •  hey whats your number? (none)
            you sound hot!

            i mean the atheist part

            </snark>

        •  Porn? Strippers? (none)
          Sounds like a party!
      •  Caught in flagrante (none)
        "Just recently Senator Sam Brownback held hearings regarding internet porn and said that a couple of business friends of his admitted that they tried to limit their time alone in hotel rooms to avoid the temptation to watch the pay-per-view skin flicks."

        So what do they do in their hotel rooms, and with whom, in order to avoid being alone?

        You just never know what the Devil is going to make you do next!

      •  If one recognizes the sinfulness in oneself, (none)
        should not that make one more forgiving of others?
        •  Sin demands punishment. (none)
          For others, especially. And of course, for oneself as well. Lingering poverty and/or continued oppression by and powerlessness in the face of the sinful liberal elite are the wages of that sin.

          Those sins are redeemed by a loud proclaimation of one's intent to do better in the future, and of course the imposition of a strict moral code by elected officials.

          In their minds, it is precisely because they themselves suffer from a sinful nature that we must all remind ourselves constantly of what is "right" and what is "wrong." It's a formula for turning the recognition of one's own sinfulness into a call for less forgiveness, not more. The ultimate in "tough love."

    •  very true (none)
      they prefer external social controls because they don't trust inner controls (i.e., self-discipline)

      Now: the real fight begins!

      by marjo on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:05:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Explains "abstinence only" (none)
        They see the abstinence only curriculum as sensible because they only respect external controls. When those fail to stop unwanted behaviors, which they always seem to do, then there is no protection whatsoever.

        It is a definite difference between us. I trust no controls other than self controls when it comes to personal behavior, and thats what I teach my kids. When push comes to shove, you will make choices based on that little voice inside your head. In other words, develop character and true moral fiber, don't rely on a wrathful and vengeful Lord to dictate right and wrong to you as if you were a pathetic, cowardly child.

        •  well the other thing about the Lord (none)
          is that people should try to walk it as well as talk it. Christians should be loving, caring, and responsible for others - you know follow in the steps of Jesus - hello?

          as you say - I dont think the Lord (or his false prophet W) needs to be chastising everyone and be all high and mighty

          I dont see how voting for George W Bush is moral or even Christian in the first place - at least as I understand it. I mean maybe its a religious hangup type of thing with authority, paternalism, and hierarchy - I dunno - The Goopers want to gut our social security net and give us tax cuts so we can buy hummers and get fat by consuming more and give more of our social security and comsumption $ over to the Wall Street money changers and war mongers (LMCO) - its perverse and seems more like the Middle Ages to me

          I am only a christian in name (as well as blog id) but to me I think a perfect example of a true christian is Pres Carter, when I hear him talk about his faith and how he has sinned (pride, lust etc) in front of his wife and a radio audience of thousands and the good works he tries to bring about - it just rings true and I say "wow that guy walks the walk"

          sorry for the ramble but I agree with your post I just think it pays greater dividends with sane "Redstaters" to talk about the alternative to Judeo Christian vengefulness brimstone etc by emphasizing what W and the other Pharisees are not - and thats love and compassion

          •  it's the difference bet. Old Testament (none)
            vengeance and wrath vs. New Testament "new covenant" as per Jesus.

            they don't seem to have gotten that part.

            Now: the real fight begins!

            by marjo on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 04:19:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Was it the Old Testament (none)
              in which Onan was castigated for "spilling his seed on the ground"?  I'm a little unclear on chapter and verse, so correction is welcome.

              If so, it sounds to me like REAL right-wing Christians would agree we need laws against men masturbating.

              "Look, it's in the Bible; those little swimmers have the right to LIFE."

      •  so why not say we're the party of SELF-control? (none)
        They want the GOV'T to control you. We want to let you control YOURSELF. Doesn't mean you don't get into trouble if you can't/won't, just means that it's YOUR responsibility.

        Responsibility -- that's how you put it.
        Now, if you get the strength to handle that responsibility from prayer, religion, or just a good therapist, that's your business. But you're responsible for your actions.

        And maybe if they tried PRAYING when they were in those hotel rooms they'd have a little self control.

    •  Cover Up or Witch Hunt (none)
      Hypocrisy. We know it, they know it.  Whether it's the televangelists and their moneygrubbing or the eventual "spiritual downfall" of persons such as this, "the Base" will eventually have to reconcile the gap between their touted moral superiority and the basic truth that their leaders are "values incompetent" compared to the rest of society.

      It will either tear them apart [please!] or knit them tighter together into a GWB state of denial. Either way, its sure to drive moderates and people with an actual idea of right and wrong away from their platform.

      I jus hope it takes less than 4 years.

      •  Neither. (4.00)
        Hypocrisy. We know it, they know it.  Whether it's the televangelists and their moneygrubbing or the eventual "spiritual downfall" of persons such as this, "the Base" will eventually have to reconcile the gap between their touted moral superiority and the basic truth that their leaders are "values incompetent" compared to the rest of society.

        No, I don't think they'll ever have to reconcile this gap in their minds. They don't claim any special ability to be able to live morally superior lives. Their claim is that they're the only ones who recognize a need to try.

        They won't have to reconcile the gap between their ideal and raw reality, because it's already central to their belief system. They know it exists, and it's precisely because it exists that they feel so strongly about the need for "moral leadership" from their politicians.

        It's like an inside-out conspiracy theory. The more this sort of thing happens, the more it proves that they need stronger "moral leaders," and maybe even that the sinful seductions of the "liberal elite" are stronger than previously believed.

        •  Pointing out the hypocrisy helps with moderates (4.00)
          and is one tool in the toolbox to stop the moral values Republicans from imposing thier "values" on the whole country.

          The true believers won't be convince but many of those moderate Republicans who voted for Bush might be...

        •  Mental "virus" (none)
          Yes, I think it has all the susceptability to logic and reason as trying to stop a viral epidemic by talking to it.

          Instead, you look for ways to innoculate, quarantine, evacuate, protect the healthy, eliminate breeding sources, etc.

          What Would Gandhi Do?

          by HenryDavid on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:36:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  The Right "makes" right (none)
          It's like an inside-out conspiracy theory. The more this sort of thing happens, the more it proves that they need stronger "moral leaders," and maybe even that the sinful seductions of the "liberal elite" are stronger than previously believed.

          I concede to your point. I have sinned and beg for absolution...or at least some Absolut ;)

          Now...do we shut up about it, or do we hammer it home? Taking the high road all the time has me dizzy...

          •  I don't think we have to shut up about it. (none)
            But we ought to give some thought to finding the most effective way of hammering it home.

            I don't think it's going to bear fruit to charge them with hypocrisy. At least, not with the people we're actually talking about. I think ihlin has a good point: address the core of their issues. At bottom, I think we really do share some (some) of these things they call moral values. We know they want desperately to see these issues addressed by politicians. The challenge we face is to find a way to get them off the self-flagellation crack they're being sold, and onto a healthful regimen of reality-based solutions instead.

            How? Not sure yet. Sounds like a tough addiction to break. The easy answers they've been sold are a lot more appealing on the surface than the heavy mental lifting it's going to take to even get them to listen to the idea that basic investment in education, health care and social safety measures can work better than prayer and punishment.

            Breaking people of the reflex that religious-sounding stuff automatically = good is a high hurdle, and only the first step. After that, we have to actually get people to consider that it's worth giving consideration to the idea that "let's get together and do something about it" is better than the idea of "go take responsibility for it yourself and besides, you don't want to pay taxes for that."

            •  Eh. I wouldn't bother (none)
              This is not big enough on its own to warrant a big, nationwide story. Hypocrites have been with us since the dawn of civilization.

              We can snicker into our soy-milk lattes, though. ;-)

              •  That wasn't really the idea. (none)
                The story itself isn't going anywhere, that's for sure. Its only lasting value, if it has any, is to open up a discussion among people like us -- so that we can see if there's any exploitable sense at all to be made of the behavior of the red voter.

                If it's just sheer hypocrisy, I'd say there's nothing to be done with it. What's the point in convincing hypocrites that they're hypocrites? Nothing. They'll deny it. Which is, of course, hypocritical. Ta-da.

                But if it's not -- if there's a real, though dysfunctional ethos to it -- then it's worth considering how it might be countered. Though it won't be over the specifics of this one story, no.

    •  I think you are exactly right (none)
      they need someone to protect them from themselves and each other.
    •  That's generous, but (4.00)
      a pedophile is a pedophile and there seem to be very many of them that seek the mantle that religious cover and "Youth Pastor" offers.

      Many of these twisted shits know exactly what they are doing and don't think that they'll get caught.  Then, there's always the, "It's true love," bunch.

      At thirteen I could tell there was something fiercely wrong with Jimmy Swaggert.  I'd watch him scream and yell, all the while thinking, "that guy's a serious perve."  Many of these people know they are sinning, but think that showing up at the store-front church in the strip mall every week absolves them of diddling children or stealing from old people or being a klepto, or whatever their particular brand of lawlessness or deviation is and they rationalize it that way.

      And, all the while, the rest of us think that things will "even out" and these turds will be brought to justice and sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't, but I, for one am and have been, seriously fucking sick of the hypocrisy.

      Consider the simp that stops in to play president when he's not on vacation and laughs away his youth and all the indiscretions and only wants to talk about the period after he turned 40 and figured out that the poor earnest people that believe and abide by this crap, as well as the people that know it's an artfull game to play, would serve his purposes and desires to crown himself king.

      Just keep telling yourself, "Swift Boat, Swift Boat," and tell it EXACTLY like it is.

      •  agreed on the simp comment (none)
        I mean seriously how can I tell my son to pay attention in Biology, Geology, Math classes (or any classes for that matter), do not over indulge in drugs, sex, booze - when all you have to do is accept Jesus and become a "steadfast" self righteous christian and you too can become president

        really W's qualifications for becoming Gov of TX and then leader of the free world is that he gave up booze and drugs and accepted Jesus at age 40 - oh and a bunch of like-minded rich motherfuckers supported him

        I guess I will tell my son to make friends with rich people thats the hard part when his daddy wants to spark class warfare all the time

    •  very true (none)
      I've always thought that the real drive to legislate values comes from being repulsed by their own desires and a desire to be punished for it.  the examples are all over.  anyone remember ed schrock?

      ironically, wingers will point this out when it's the taliban, but can't see it so close to home.

      And it's often not just their lack of self-control they want to legislate, it's also the control of family members:  Remember Alan Keyes' lesbian daughter?  suddenly he's even scarier when you see who he's really attacking.

      Here in GA, Sadie Fields, pres of the state Christian Coalition, was the most vocal support of the hate amendment.  Her disowned daughter wrote a moving op-ed in the ajc:
      http://georgiaequality.org/cms/content/view/58/34/

  •  Classic! (none)
    And frighteningly typical.
  •  As they say on that 70's show (none)
    BURN!

    http://www.progressiveamericans.org - Democracy at Work.

    by byronm on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:41:54 AM PST

  •  Disagree (none)
    ..with this tactic though it is salacious fun.

    Still - showing these people up will not win red state religious types to our side and to a change of heart.  This certainly fans our flames, but thats about it. In some ways, it deepens the divide as we have ingrained in our heads how venal and hypocritical THEY are.  Isnt that what they are doing to us? Now please don't get me wrong - I am not advocating turn the other cheek at all costs or butter wouldnt melt in your mouth pc - but we must be careful to bear reality in the back of our minds - winning them to our side is the goal - if not in large numbers, enough numbers to turn the tide. Any other goal is bull.

    So enjoy yourselves - but keep your heads clear and your priorities straight.  Making fun of this hypocrite aint the prize...people like him have been around since way way back and will be around ..

    •  despise the Kos attitude (3.54)
      i hate this making fun of GOP hypocrites and self-righteous bleating about how WE in the blue states are the true moral superiors. All of us are fallen. that is the central tenet of Christianity. this sort of polarizing attitude is frankly just as bad to me as Falwell and Robertson's moronic judgmentalism.

      The rank and file Religious right folks have legitimate concerns. they are concerned about divorce, the rise in single-headed families, drug use, violence, crime, poverty, rampant sex, violence in the media. the Democratic party has done a poor job addressing these concerns. in fact, we're making fun of them for even having these concerns and sneering at how uneducated, poorer, lower IQ these folks are, with their teen pregnancy and divorce rates. Quit pointing out how bad they all are. these folks already know that. we get it in church every week. that's why we accept as Christ as savior. to religious conservatives, they are NOT trying to foist their values on you. they are genuinely trying to find solutions to the problems that plague their communities and see liberals eviscerating God in the public sphere, foisting their secularism on them, as the key to why their communities are so fucked up. we win this battle by 1. taking their concerns seriously and 2. providing an alternative frame as to why their communities are struggling so much. the problem ain't godless liberals and the ACLU. the problem is a profit-driven greedy amoral corporate capitalist system that values materialism above family, community, "morality."

      however, there are some liberals who don't see a 50% divorce rate as a problem, 1 million abortions performed, rise of single-headed families in poverty, illegal drug use, pornography addictions. that's fine. your issue may be pressing for gay marriage rights. however,for many folks in swing/red states, the above issues are cause for serious concern. and Democratics have done nothing to control the framing of how we go about solving these problems. Blue state folks should be gently pointing out to red state folks how on their key concerns, blue states do a better job because of greater investments in education, health care, blah blah. that GOP policies do not work. Red state folks are not hypocrities for voting for Bush and the GOP. they are voting for the party that addresses their concerns. some of their leaders are fallen, (as are many of our leaders in the black community, but I still love 'em anyways), but they appreciate the attention paid to their concerns.

      •  I disagree (4.00)
        When you stand up and declare that you are a moral and good person and you use those morals to make decisions while disregarding facts all the while shifting blame for any of your mistakes to someone else, you are opening yourself up for the kind of comments found in this diary.

        I don't claim to be morally superior to anyone, I readily admit on a daily basis I fall short of the mark I feel Christ has set for me.  I fall.  Daily.  At the same time, I don't go around pointing out everyone else's failure for fear they point their finger back at me.  I refuse to be a modern Pharasie judging the fallen.

        However, when I see those Pharisees fall, I admit I gain a mesure of joy.  And for that, I show, yet again, that I fall.  Daily.

        •  Huge! (none)
          This the actual meaning of the "judge not lest ye be judged". If they want to remove the speck from society's collective eye, they should remove the plank from their own first. & to the churches, Christian organizations, communities and individuals who are doing just that - they should have our utmost support.

          I miss Kerry's pink ties...

          by shelly vander on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:31:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Come all ye faithful... (none)
          to the First Assembly of Mote-centric Xtian Church Ladyism of Iesu Christos.

          Evidently, Mr. Hintz's nether regions were engorged and tingling.

          Could it be....SATAN?!?

          "But then I viddied that thinking is for the gloopy ones and the oomny ones use, like, inspiration and what Bog sends." -- Alex de Large

          by rgilly on Wed Dec 08, 2004 at 04:08:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Take note! (none)
        I would consider this to be the more tolerant and fully developed way of thinking strategically about my preferred explanation of how red voters come by their beliefs.

        The challenge is in overcoming their aversion to "big government," but the facts are there: "blue states do a better job because of greater investments in education, health care, blah blah."

        Red voters may be loathe to accept the facts as presented, and will certainly be hesitant about accepting the causal relationship we claim between our investments and our results, but that's different from hypocrisy.

      •  point taken, but... (none)
        I feel like the belief that we are all sinners can too often be used as an excuse to sin.  Professing to be righteous does not make one so, especially when some use their professed righteousness as a get-out-of-hell-free card to commit immoral acts.  We may all be sinners, but we should aspire to be moral in our lives rather than use our natural temptation to sin as an excuse to sin even more.
      •  What's needed is an examination of what's (4.00)
        fundamentally wrong with our societies. Divorce, abortion, poverty, crime, racism and the ills of any society are symptoms of a social structure in crisis or transition. Fixing one part of the equation will do absolutely nothing to remedy the whole.

        In order to have a equilibrium, a society has to have all seven social structures strongly in place and interdependant. These structures are:


        • Economic structures
        • Welfare structures(health and well-being)
        • Kinship (family, community and religious) structures
        • Legal structures (law and order)
        • Justice
        • Education
        • Political structures

        In order to be considered a viable society, it must have all of these structures in place and functioning seperately but interdependantly for at least 300 yrs. Failing that criteria, a society is said to be in transition.  

        When you have a society like that which you porport to be viable (a solution of sorts), it is not viable b/c it's primary focus is religious. It dictates that in order to be considered part of said society, the whole of the society must adopt a predetermined religious doctrine. The other 6 structures are incorporated to accomodate kinship. That would probably work in isolation of the rest of the world, but it isn't realistic in the sense that it's foundation is singular and thus weak.  

        Pssst ... there are mad men in the White House.

        by banjon on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:55:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Glass Houses, Casting First Stone,... (none)
        Public Morality, Private Immorality...
        Wearing Religion on your sleeve...

        Absolutely we should point out the hypocrisy of the Faux moralists. I don't think anyone on the left thinks we are morally superior, but not many of us want to cede the moral high ground to those who would use religion to divide us.

        Most of the Evangelical leaders are full of feces. If Jesus were around he topple them for their abuses.

        You can try to woo these charlatans, and their sheep. I'm going to continue to denounce there falseness.

      •  I am morally superior! (4.00)
        I don't cheat people, I don't steal, I don't fuck around on my husband.  I honor my Republican father-in-law, who I would love to beat on the head with a stick, but don't.  I've returned wallets that I've found.  I am a completely righteous person and I truly resent these evil people representing themselves as righteous while they sleep with children, drive up our gas and energy prices, make old people choose between food and medicine, etc.  And, they try to tell me I'm the bad one because I think that we should take care of the sick and the unfortunate and that when necessary, the government, should step in to help?  I'm sorry, but that attitude is exactly what has gotten us to the pathetic state that we are in now.

        I don't try to impose my ideas about the way the world and everything else works.  I simply want to do my thing, that doesn't hurt anyone else, and I want those wankers to leave me alone to do it.  When they start telling me about how this is a Christian nation and then do things that true Christians don't it infuriates me.  I'm really not sure why we can't show them what compassion really looks like, it's not sleeping with a 17-year-old that you should have been providing moral and spiritual guidance to, but decided that you just had to have, to the detriment of your wife and four children.

        We have got to point out the Flip Flops/inconsistencies, whatever the frame is, between the message and the action because we have certainly allowed these pedophiles, larcenists, embezzlers, serial marriers, thieves, adulterers, etc. to define us and our message!

      •  You're right, Ihlin, some of these issues ... (4.00)
        ...should be better addressed by liberals.

        But, what irks me, as someone left of liberal, is that too many of the moral-values-on-their-sleeve folks are quick to point out the specks in liberal eyes and slow to find the logs in their own. That is, in part, what sparks threads like these.

        There are some areas where we lefties and liberals DO make fun of the MVOTS folks: such as when they argue that abstinence-only education will solve the teen pregnancy problem. Moreover, quite a few religious conservatives ARE trying to foist - legislatively, judicially - values on me with which I disagree. I'm not telling them they have to look at porn, get abortions, divorce their spouses, raise kids out of wedlock, smoke pot or dance the lambada.  

        We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. - David Brower

        by Meteor Blades on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:19:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  There is no doubt ..... (none)
        ..... that a lot of the carping in this discussion thread has a lot to with frustration.

        The people on the religious right believe that the solution to every moral problem is to make a law. How do we engage these people who see no other solution to the problems affecting our society?

        Do these people really know that a lot of these 'evils' are more prevalent among their communities? How can the laws of man solve the problems when the laws of God are being broken. Isn't it high time we pointed this out?

        When we advocate drug rehabilitation vs. enforce ment, they tell us we support drug use.

        When we advocate a fair tax system, they say we reward laziness.

        When we advocate diplomacy in the face of war, they say we lack the moral compass to see evil.

        How do we reach these people?

        WE SEE ALL THE PROBLEMS YOU JUST MENTIONED. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THESE PEOPLE REFUSE TO EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE OUR SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEMS.

      •  Well... (none)
        You've touched on the reality.

        For years the Republicans bitched and moaned and complained about the Democrats doing everything "for the children."

        And so the Democrats finally started listening, and stopped talking about "the children."

        Then the Republicans took over the mantal and now everything they do is "for the children."

        I still think it's more enjoyable to make fun of them.

        "If any question why we died, Tell them, because our fathers lied." - Rudyard Kipling, 1918

        by Steve4Clark on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 01:24:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Best answer yet (none)
        Ihlin, you always harp on this idea, and I usually tussle with you about it, but this is the most constructive iteration I've seen from you. I like it. It gives me something concrete to work toward, instead of castigating liberals for their so-called denigration of religion.

        Teen pregnancy and broken homes are problems that indeed trouble us all, and Democrats are certainly better equipped to address them. Thing is, if you try to help these people, you're immediately accused of encouraging their behavior, instead of trying to mitigate the damage.

        If you try to prevent teen pregnancy with solid, fact-based sex education, you're accused of encouraging sexual activity. If you look at root causes, like low self-esteem, you're making excuses.

        There's some impotant re-framing that needs to go on to convince people that Janet Jackson's boob did not cause teen pregnancy, y'know?

        •  janet's boob (none)
          though is indicative of a society's culture that's in the moral toilet, which can lead to sexual promiscuity and so forth. i did see some liberals snicker at folks who were complaining: haha, those idiot prudes. i happen to think ti was pretty inappropriate to have that on during the day. i also think lying about Iraq is a bigger fucking moral issue. but i don't think religious right's objections were completely w/o merit. and i would blame a deregulated corporate concentrated media for Janet's boob, which is an outgrowth of a the "free market" system religious conservatives profess so much faith in. if you pointed out that inconsistency, you'd win a surprising amount of support from religious conservatives i think, who realize there are a lot of bad effects of laissez-faire market policies.
      •  Oh, really? Or is it O'Reilly? (none)
        Quit pointing out how bad they all are. these folks already know that. we get it in church every week. that's why we accept as Christ as savior. to religious conservatives, they are NOT trying to foist their values on you. they are genuinely trying to find solutions to the problems that plague their communities and see liberals eviscerating God in the public sphere, foisting their secularism on them, as the key to why their communities are so fucked up.

        We need look no further than "prayer in schools" to see a particularly egregious example of "values foisting."  I assume proponents of school prayer have their kids praying all the time at home;  praying so much, in fact, that they can't get it all done at home.  That's why they need to pray in school.  But wait....what about other people's kids?  These folks have decided that other people's kids need to pray more, too.  And I'll bet you a dollar that they have a nice, christian prayer all picked out for them.

        And whose values is O'Reilly foisting?  Not mine, and apparently, not even his own.  He'll peddle whatever horseshit the fundies are buying this week, while making filthy phone calls to staffers and doing himself with a vibrator.

        If christians don't want to have abortions, fine.  Don't have any. If they don't want to marry another of their own sex, fine.  Don't do it.  Drugs? Porno?  Rock & roll?  Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it.

        But most of all, they shouldn't bitch and moan about big gubmint out of one side of their mouth, and expect that same gubmint to enforce their personal morality (and, yes, foist the same onto me and mine.)

        A proud member of the reality-based community!

        by roxtar on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 04:22:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  the GOP does not (none)
        truly address in a fundamental way what are red-stater values concerns. They feed them fast-food values - supersize them with salacious cultural stereotypes like "liberal elites", "Hollywood filth", "liberal media", "tree- huggers","feminazis" etc while:

      • robbing them of good paying jobs and a brighter economic future - hey how bout enlisting? how about working as a prison guard?
      • underfunding education and research in our primary, secondary and collegiate schools
      • poking holes in the social safety net leaving people more vulnerable while funding more and more lethal ways to kill people -  F22 Joint Strike Fighter? V22 Osprey? THAAD? Missle Defense?
      • leaving large debts (economic, fiscal, and environmental) for the future generations to pay
      • creating and exacerbating geopolitical tensions making our country, allies, and countrymen abroad less safe

        Democrats do not agitate for "Gay Marriage Rights" - is that a party plank? - I know I dont - however we should agitate for what is right, good, equitable and truthful.

        It becomes a question of priorities and values and frankly I think the GOP's values at this point are fucked

        you want to call me a liberal elite because I believe in higher taxes and effective government and have a college education and use 10 dollar words like "mendacious" thats fine but I would bet that the liberal elites care more about an equitable and just American society than do any Republican save maybe Chaffee and maybe McCain when he's not being threatened with pictures of his illegitimate 'black baby'

        the problem is the GOP "values" voters dont know this (yet)

  •  We can keep our eyes on the prize ... (4.00)
    ...and still engage in payback. I doubt that very many Kosopotamians think this is "salacious fun," but are, instead, outraged when pedophiles operate under ministerial cover while urging their congregations to vote for Republicans on grounds of "moral values." It's just another version of War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength, Freedom is Slavery.

    We don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. - David Brower

    by Meteor Blades on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:20:24 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

  •  Schadenfreude... (none)
    ...and why we are sick of it. Next on DailyKos.

    W was elected to protect Them from Us.

    by Radical Middle on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:42:43 AM PST

  •  The really frustrating thing (4.00)
    is that it just won't matter to the people who support GWB.  They won't see the hypocrisy - heck, they don't see the hypocrisy in a man who "claims" to be a Christian starting a war and killing thousands of people.  

    It's all about appearances and not substance - it's about charisma and not quality - image over intelligence.  

    I'll bet the tax cut helped the good Reverend pay for motel rooms too.  

    the human tragedy consists in the necessity of living with the consequences under pressure

    by confusedintexas on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:43:05 AM PST

  •  Hypocrisy not enough to derail theocons (none)
    It is amazing the number of hypocrits that espouse the theocn agenda.  Remember also Dreier and Mehlman.

    But the theocons will simply purge the "sinners" from their ranks and find those with no skeletons.  We can't count on all of the theocons being shown to be hypocrites....we also need to beat the substance of the theocon agenda.

  •  But just for fun.... (4.00)
    we might add that this sexual exploitation charge is obviously the result of a partisan witch hunt, led by some "crackpot" prosecutor from Des Moines.

    The courts in this country are out of control!

    I move that we immediately rewrite the bylaws of the First Assembly of God Church, so that youth pastors under indictment not be forced to step down.

    Innocent until proven guilty!

  •  Following the money (4.00)
    Mike Hintz, a First Assembly of God youth pastor, said the tax cuts also gave him additional money to use for health ca...ooops...bail and lawyer's fees.

    Hostage smiles on presidents, freedom scribbled in the subway. It's like night and day. - Joni Mitchell

    by jazzlover on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:44:19 AM PST

  •  Don't you think (none)
    A lot of evangelical voters don't care about this hypocrisy, and become more belligerent at whoever points it out than the actual practitioner?  It's the same argument that the Kerry camp used to take Abu Ghraib off the table, because they didn't want to attack the military, for fear that the mentioner would be seen as worse than the torturer.

    Not that I agree with hypocrisy, and not that I'm saying we do ourselves a disservice by pointing it out, but the more that politics becomes like professional wrestling, the easier it is for anyone on the side of "the bad guys" to dismiss charges of hypocrisy.

    I honestly don't know what to do about this.  Thoughts?

    visit my blog! d-day.blogspot.com

    by dday on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:44:32 AM PST

  •  oh come one (none)
    Kerry talked about his faith too. Him being Catholic, does that put him in support of being a child molestor? Bad tactic to rejoice in the pain of others.

    "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin

    by bluestateLIBertarian on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:45:48 AM PST

  •  what an unbelievable story! (4.00)
    ...I'm going to tell you what this election has done to me...I used to consider myself a fairly religious person...certainly a person who felt good about organized religion and - while I wasn't a constant Sunday attendee - I felt good that others were going & that it was there for me as well.

    But since the election, wow, I'm suspect of everything religious...it feels so hypocritical to me...so judgemental....If I were an even middle-of-the road priest or pastor, I'd be freaked out by this election because it's taken organized religion - which is supposed to be a comfort - and turned it into something only for extreme views.

    Chalk up another win in the polarism column for Bush...he's found a way to drive even church-going voters away from the church.

  •  Add Him to the List: (4.00)
    (1) Republican Mayor Philip Giordano - 37 year sentence for sexually abusing 8 and 10 year old girls.
    google here

    (2) Republican Congressman, Donald "Buz" Lukens, convicted of having sex with a minor. http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/from_redirect/0,10987,1101890213-151183  

    (3) Republican fundraiser, Richard A. Delgaudio, convicted of child porn charges.
    http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/2153721/detail.html

    (4) Republican activist, Mark A. Grethen, convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.
    http://www.orlandoweekly.com/weird/index.asp?now=3400

    (5) Republican activist, Randal David Ankeney, convicted of assaulting a 14-year-old girl.
    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/1130885/detail.html

    (6) Republican Congressman, Dan Crane, had sex with a minor.
    http://archive.salon.com/col/cona/1998/10/05cona.html

    (7) Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader, Beverly Russell, admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter. http://wlo.org/nw/nww5.html

    (8) Republican anti-abortion activist, John Allen Burt, was charged with sexual misconduct involving a 15 year old girl.
    http://www.brojed.org/wwwboard/messages/14076.html

    (9) Conservative radio talk host indicted on charge of indecency with child
    http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/111203_local_matthews.html

    (10) Republican congressman, Robert Bauman, was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy. http://www.glinn.com/news/h122989a.htm

    (11) Republican activist, Marty Glickman convicted on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with a juvenile and one count of the delivery of LSD.  http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/01/top10_2001_15.html

    (12) Howard L. Brooks, a Republican staffer, charged with molesting a 12-year old boy and possession of child pornography.
    http://www.sacbee.com/static/live/news/calreport/N2001-11-22-2300-0.html

    (13) Republican Senate candidate, John Hathaway, was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter.
    http://www..cascobayweekly.com/cbw/news/al01.31.02.stm

    (14) Republican preacher, Stephen White, arrested after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy to perform oral sex on him. http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=23709

    (15)Republican state Rep. Brent Parker arrested for soliciting sex from an undercover officer posing as a male prostitute. http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Mar/03012003/utah/34193.asp

    (16)Douglas County Election Commissioner Pat McPherson arrested for fondling a 17-year-old girl. http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=0&u_pg=36

    BONUS Ted Bundy was a Republican!!

    here

  •  Just out of the most purient curiosity, (none)
    is the 17-year-old male or female?

    "Sometimes I believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." --The Queen, Alice in Wonderland

    by DCDemocrat on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:46:37 AM PST

  •  I feel sorry for the two women, the wife and the (none)
    underage girl. I feel sorry for the four kids who have had their reality and security shattered. And, I feel sorry for the Rev. No vacation for you. He is in for a world of hurt, jail time, and people who will exploit him.

    You just never know when life is going to bite you on the ass.

    All that tax money will now be eaten by lawyers.

    It was never about Irag. It's not really about terrorism either. It's about Pax Americana.

    by dolphindude on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:48:32 AM PST

  •  GOD is on our side (none)
    Or fate.

    Or poetic justice.

    Whatever it is, keep it coming!

    Which pill do you want to take ?
    Blue - Election fraud, Taliban R Us, Reality
    Red - No fraud, All is peachy, It's Clinton's fault, Faith based!

    by lawnorder on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:50:50 AM PST

  •  Georgie made hisself a brand new uni-form (4.00)
  •  wow (none)
    that just knocked the wind out of me.  took my breath away.

    that's some piece of reporting, kos.  holy freaking crap.  

    is the 17 yr old a boy or girl?   what about abstinence only? was he teaching it?

    A liberal is a man or a woman or a child who looks forward to a better day, a more tranquil night, and a bright, infinite future. Leonard Bernstein

    by x on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:52:14 AM PST

  •  Sick of it (none)
    You know, the only thing that sickens me more than hypocritical right wing pieces of shit is that for all the hypocricy, the Tom Delays and Bill Bennetts and Rush Limbaughs and Bill O'Reillys and the HIDE BEHIND THE WORD OF GOD COWARD MIKE HINTZs is.....that it falls on deaf ears.

    Where is the outrage from the so-called moral Right when their hypocricy is called out?

    No where.

    They look past it, or rationalize it, or, as someone above mentioned, blame it on the Liberals.

    Can we now start referring to them as the "Child Molesting Sexual Harrasing Drug Problem Gambling Problem Right Wing?"

    Or is that too long?

  •  Used to take my kids to the daycare... (4.00)
    run by this same church, it's in the neighborhood and was convenient. It got increasingly spooky and we quit. Heard the lead pastor, Palmer talking on talk radio one day, babbling insanely about the government "watching him from black busses".

    Shortly after we left, the pastor in charge of the day care was let go for allegedely "misappropriating" funds. These guys are a real trip....

  •  Not Surprising -- (none)
    This has always been the case.  I look inside my own family - all of the hard core righties who tout hard core right wing values are all guilty of this.  I've come to expect this from the moral values crowd.

    I think this behavior is symbiotic with being from the moral value crowd we have today.  They preach their moralistic hate speech all the while self-indulging in other very non-moral behavior.

    Just look at their economic/foreign policy/domestic agenda.

    I've come to expect only the best.

    Good deeds and good intentions are as far apart as heaven and hell...Ben Harper

    by Belac on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:53:31 AM PST

  •  Hypocrisy aside (4.00)
    That $2,800 went an awful long way - 1) bought a wood burning stove; 2) made home improvements; 3) vacationed in Minnesota; 4) paid for health care.

    I know NH has a high cost of living, but the folks in Minnesota must really know how to stretch a dollar.

  •  Mike Hintz (none)
    undoubtedly knows that Martin Luther once counseled, "Love God and do what you will."

    "Sometimes I believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." --The Queen, Alice in Wonderland

    by DCDemocrat on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:59:07 AM PST

  •  Black Collar Crime Blotter (none)
    is a regular (and sadly incident-packed) feature of Freethought Today (newspaper of FFRF). So many abuses by clergy, from pedophilia to money laundering to injuring people in 'healing' rituals. But especially a horrifying amount of sexual abuse and misconduct against minors.

    Kerry/Edwards: For a reality-based America

    by Em on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 10:59:41 AM PST

  •  Most ironic presidency? (none)
    pederast endorses cokehead, at least there's a certain degree of consistency in their positions.  Remember, you may not agree with him - but at least you know he's buzzed.
  •  Response? (4.00)
    Good thing the Dems have established strong, effective state parties to counter Bush on his local media popularity trips and exploit this kind of stuff.
  •  Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged! (none)
    As one who belongs to the human race, I am aware of human falibility and try not to judge people too harshly.  Yet it annoys me that someone like a Limbaugh, who can't hold a marriage and has a substance abuse problem is so quick to judge others and that his listening public does not seem to be troubled by his hipocrisy. With the right it seems that words speak louder than deeds.  As long as one makes the right noise all else can be forgiven.

    As an imperfect human I do the best I can to "do no harm."  But I don't feel compelled to tell other people what to do.

  •  wealth, status, and moral corruption (4.00)
    With wealth and status comes the feeling that you can get away with anything.  Horrible disfunction and abuse in wealthy families is papered over with the appearance of idyllic moral life to hide the secrets within.  The crowing about moral values is just the outward expression of their need to keep secret the crimes committed against women and children.  Too often the victims don't come forward out of shame or because they feel compelled to protect the fraudulent status of their families.  What we hear about in the media is only the tiniest fraction of what occurs behind the scenes.
  •  He was (4.00)
    just practicing his love for his pupils.

    No wait - that's gynocologists. My bad.

  •  A little misleading. (none)
    Might what to point out it is not literally yesterday and today, but October 6th and October 30th, according to the links in the oh-so-cool boxquote.

    That doesn't change anything, really, but it's always good to give accurate info.

  •  This diary compliments another (none)
    diary in that it deals with the collective mentality of the so-called Christian right.

    Pssst ... there are mad men in the White House.

    by banjon on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:12:33 AM PST

  •  snarky humor time (4.00)
    TV advertisement for the First Assembly of God: the bouncer only lets the young girls in the church door... will CBS approve?
  •  Local perspective (4.00)
    Couple of notes about the reported incident.  I used to live in the neighborhood and can tell you that the church on Merle Hay Road is in a lower to middle income neighborhood while Pastor Hintz and his wood burning wife lives in a MUCH better area (Clive).

    So not only was Pastor Hintz preying on his flock but he was poaching on lower income people as well, the kind who need some kind of assurance that there's a better life for them out there somewhere...

    Pax

    Night and day, you can find me Flogging the Simian

    by Soj on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:13:38 AM PST

  •  They Don't Research Their Paragons of Values Well (none)
    This reminds me of the doctor Bush was talking up during his campaign. As he whined about frivolous malpractice lawsuits, he introduced a doctor and said the man had been driven from medicine.

    Bob Herbert wrote about this in June. "If Mr. Bush was looking for an example of a doctor who was victimized by frivolous lawsuits, Dr. Girdharry was not a great choice. Since the early 1990's, he has settled lawsuits and agreed to the payment of damages in a number of malpractice cases in which patients suffered horrible injuries."

    More.

    Real nice people ya got there George!

    My mind is my own church. - Thomas Paine

    by Tuco1 on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:14:17 AM PST

  •  17 Years Old??? (none)
    Not real crazy about somebody in a position of authority getting involved with a student, but....for crying out loud....does a 17 year old reallyneed to be "protected" from a "sexual predator" if the act was consensual?  Aren't there more pressing law enforcement matters to pursue?

    "He serves best the party who serves best the country". Rutherford B. Hayes

    by Thinking Republican on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:15:15 AM PST

  •  Now wait a second (none)
    I am amused as hell by this article, believe me, but screwing 17 year olds does not amount to moral degeneracy unless other factors come into play.

    Also if it is Muriel Hemingway, then its hot.

    "What can I say? I just tip my hat and call the Yankees my daddy." -Pedro Martinez

    by BooMan23 on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:15:18 AM PST

  •  Was it wrong (none)
    for me to laugh so hard at that?
  •  Secular Humanism (none)
    And one "friend" of mine whose morality is "guided by the Revealed Truth" mocked my secular humanism.

    As I recall, isn't there some story about Lot and his daughters getting it on in the Old Testament?  Something about needing to have a son?

    Culina: where to eat in Edmonton.

    by Gearhead on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:17:54 AM PST

  •  Juicy stuff, sure it is, but... (4.00)
    (Just a first search on sinnin' Mike's name brought up:

    http://www.trinitybiblecollege.edu/information/publish/article_171.shtml

    "Special Guest speaker for the event is Pastor Mike Hintz from Des Moines First Assembly of God and a 1993 graduate of Trinity Bible College. Mike has worked with teenagers for the past eleven years. What he really loves about working with youth is seeing God take them out of their comfort zone and radically change the way they see God. One of his biggest passions is taking groups on missions trips. "

    Comfort zone, indeed.  (Link'll probably disappear soon.)

    BTW, I agree with Swimmer, MKS, kagro's and dday's remarks about this being a sideshow, and not a strategy.  These people are ill members of a religous cult (much of evangelical Christianity) brought on by societal stresses beyond the breaking point of most humans.  (It don't take much -- didn't in Medieval times, and it doesn't now.)

    Keeping up with their scandals has to be more for amusement, or reminders, than an obsession for us.  They thrive on "sin", and the impossible goal of eradicating it.  They'll spin out a whole sub-industry of "recovering" their lost sheep, and love each other to death while doing it.

    These people are not healthy, and we are the last people to pile on the mentally deranged.  However, to innoculate and protect ourselves from their lemming rush, that's enough of a project in itself!

    And IowaGuy's kids went there.  Observing the weird atmosphere is probably more common than most people would suspect.

    PhillyGal has an entire list here -- don't miss it!

    Southern Hope talks about suspecting all religion.  Think about it -- ever since the first Sumerian or Babylonian or whoever priests figured out they could get out of the heavy field work by spinning out yarns for superstitious consumption, the Elmer Gantrys of the world have been at it.

    Doesn't mean Jesus wasn't real, or Buddha, or Dr. King didn't "go to the mountain", BUT the cons in human life are always nearby.  "Spiritual discernment" -- now where have I heard that before?  Just a bunch of newbies getting taken...

    What Would Gandhi Do?

    by HenryDavid on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:20:54 AM PST

  •  The Sage of Baltimore Weighs In (none)

     Although the man of the hour in Mencken's little essay, one Henry Judd Grey, was shot full of electricity on account of his bludgeoning to death the husband of the woman of his dreams, I think certain points ring true 75 years later with respect to Brother Feelgood, the Right Reverend Hintz.  See if you agree.

    From:  "A Good Man Gone Wrong"

     "His crime, in fact, was a sort of public ratification of his damnation.  It was his way of confessing.  If he had any logical motive, it was his yearning to get into Hell as soon as possible. . . Sin is a dangerous toy in the hands of the virtuous.  It should be left to the congenitally sinful, who know when to play with it and when to leave it alone.  Run a boy through a[n] [Assembly of God] Sunday-school and you must police him carefully all the rest of his life, for once he slips he is ready for anything."

      H.L. Mencken
      1928

      BenGoshi
    ______________

    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." T.J.

    by BenGoshi on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:21:16 AM PST

  •  My LTE about this (none)
    Here is a letter I just wrote to my local paper.  I think we need to expose hypocrites like this who got out there for Bush and theocracy during the election season.  LTE's are the way to go b/c the SCLM won't cover such a phenomenon of course.  Feel free to borrow ideas for your own letters.

    I agree that 17-year-olds shouldn't be just as "illegal" as 12 year olds or whatever.  But we have to hold these Ass(embly) of God asswipes up to their own standards.

    the letter:

    In my home state of Iowa a married Assembly of God (John Ashcroft's denomination) youth pastor spoke at an October Bush rally, praising the President's culture war.  Weeks later, that pastor turned himself in for sexually exploiting a child.  

    Bennett, Swaggart, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Gingrich, Henry Hyde, thousands of priests, etc.  The hypocrisy of anti-gay, anti-sex,  pompous "Christian" moralists continues.  Will their followers ever abandon them or the obviously corrupt, dishonest Bush administration?

    Some people will read this and say, "How dare you stereotype conservative Christians based on the actions of some!"  I am not, but I think their illogical beliefs (which repress natural human sexuality and other appropriate aspects of our lives) can lead to such crazy behavior.  Then I would ask these hypocrites back, "Why do you continue to stereotype gays and non-Christians without us even committing the same sins that the purveyors of your `morality' commit?"

  •  Don't you think...... (4.00)
    That the values debate is not really a debate? Isn't it really just a coded way of speaking that gives people cover to use their vote as a soft and indirect way of discriminating in issues of race, sex, gender and policial slant? I mean there isn't a real debate going on is there. One side (liberals) are trying to make cogent arguments based on reason and logic while the other side have cast aside reason and logic and are busy calling  anyone who doesn't agree with their illogic a scumbucket.

    Unless the right slips and there is some sort of social or scientific catastrophe because of their values, the only way to neutralize this tactic is to point out that they are liars, that their values are un-Christian, while at the same time crafting government programs that will make people who claim they vote based on family values vote their pocketboks instead.

  •  Immoral values of the right ruin America (none)
    Here are some of the Right's immoral values:

    • Value of lawlessness
    • Value of power
    • Value of greed
    • Value of violence
    • Value of white supremacy
    • Value of male domination
    • Value of ignorance
  •  Unbelievable, then again... (none)
    The league of alleged moral values sinks once again.  The hypocrisy of it all just makes me ill, as we all know this will not be covered by any major news organization.

    I have outrage fatigue.  Sigh.

    Closed minds should come with closed mouths.

    by Pennsylvanian on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:25:14 AM PST

  •  There they go again.... (none)
    the "Do as I say, Not as I do" Republicans.. Born-agains....
  •  Family values (none)
    GOP style, ho ho fucking ho, merry xmas America, you wanted him you have him. Good luck!
    PEACE!
  •  My email to Grassley (none)
    Moral values.

    http://www.grassleyworks.com/grassley/wrapper.jsp?pid=4090-69&CID=4090-100604A

    Michael Hintz.  

    www.theiowachannel.com/news/3976822/detail.html

    I see a problem here, do you?  Or perhaps I was just mistaken on what having moral values actually means.  However, I suppose if using Napalm on civilian women and children fits with your moral values then you wouldn't have any problem with pedophilia.  

    http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14920109&method=full&siteid=106694&headli ne=fallujah-napalmed-name_page.html

  •  Did anyone hear Bill O'Reilly this morning? (4.00)
    He was ranting about a poll that showed that 86% af Americans believe that Jesus is the son of God. He said that's the reason the secularists and the media are so full of hatred and loathing for the christian majority.

    WRONG, Bill! Please take note of the following:

    • You are the media.
    • Stop projecting your abundance of hatred and loathing onto others.
    • To the extent that we have objections to others, its not Christians, its jerkoffs like you who can't put your own lives in order but see fit to tell everyone else how to live.

    Composing The News While The Media Is Decomposing - www.NewsCorpse.com

    by KingOneEye on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:34:05 AM PST

  •  don't forget Poland (none)
    Bennett, Bakker, Swaggart, Limbaugh, and the rest of the hypocritical moralistic gang need to get their own house in order before they preach their brand of cynical morality on the rest of us.

    Don't forget Poland, oops Tweety. Tweety has enthousiastically taken on the mantle of moralizer of the airwaves. You can't watch his show without him pontificating about how superior the Mike Hintz's of the world are. He spends every minute of his show  that he doesn't use bashing Hillary Clinton to rhapsodize about religious red staters like Hintz.

    Now lecherous, elitist Squire of Nantucket Tweety doesn't want to live like Hintz (except for the 17 yr old girl part). He just wants ratings.

  •  But what they didn't tell you (4.00)
    was that their property taxes probably went up. As did their vehicle tax, their state and local taxes, and all sorts of fees went up for clerical government services. Throw in the price of gasoline, and they barely break even.

    Kudos on the new stove though. I wonder if Bush sold them some wood?

  •  Family values then and now (4.00)
    I just happened to be reading an essay written by Bruce Vilanch several years ago, when the GOP was having a grand old time over Monica Lewinski:

    And a CNN poll revealed that only 12 percent to 16 percent of Americans think the president is obliged to set a moral standard. At the millennium Americans view their leader not as a rabbi or a big Boy Scout but as a CEO. No office sex scandal is going to get a CEO fired when the stock is up. Most Americans want to keep the president's personal moral standards separate from his politically moral ones.

    So Clinton, who presided over prosperity, had his personal morals raked over the coals by the self-righteous GOP.  The public, while salivating over a scandal promoted by a media with something to sell, was willing to forgive him because things were otherwise going well.

    Now, Dubya, who continues to preside over economic doom and gloom, and wears his supposed morals on his sleeve, gets a free pass by the GOP and, apparently, the public.

    When times are good, morals that are really nobody's business (lying about what happened between consenting adults) don't matter.  When times are bad, morals that are fake (lying about pretty much everything) not only matter, they win elections.

    Hintz is the perfect symbol for this administration:  Do what I say, not what I do.

    He has oil. He tried to kill my daddy.

    by kensa on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:46:12 AM PST

  •  Anyone Know Where I can (none)
    Find some kind of bumper sticker that says "HEY, the election is over, you can remove your "W04" stickers off your cars now ... Florida is just full of damn cars with these stickers still on them ...
  •  Maybe next year (none)
    he'll go to Texas!
  •  The Hintz story is also on the Des Moines County.. (none)
    ...GOP website.

    DMCGOP.

    They must be so proud.

    Composing The News While The Media Is Decomposing - www.NewsCorpse.com

    by KingOneEye on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:53:27 AM PST

  •  Hypocrisy (none)
    It's a mugs game to point out hypocrisy.  Point out any person.  Look in the mirror.  They're everywhere, they're everywhere.  Me you him her mom dad   If you say "you are a hypocrite and I'm not"  I'll say " you are a liar AND a hypocrite"

    Always remember, others may hate you. Those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself. Richard M Nixon.

    by peterborocanuck on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 11:56:14 AM PST

  •  I attended First Assembly of God church (none)
    as a youth, and our junior pastor ran off with my Mom's best friend (who was not his wife).

    We need a new word for the brazen hypocrisy these folks display.

  •  Send the hypocrisy to the media... (none)
    At least, to the ones that will report on it.

    Keith Olbermann - KOlbermann@msnbc.com

    Air America - http://www.airamericaradio.com/

    ...etc

  •  Ready for another hypocrite? (none)
    from the village voice.

    read about the values of another reverend here

    "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin

    by bluestateLIBertarian on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:18:40 PM PST

  •  That church (none)
    is my aunt's and my cousin works there.  They have gone there for at least the past 20 years.  It has, I believe, in the neighborhood of 15,000 members.  

    In the struggle against evil, there is no shame in defeat -- only in not fighting. -Tolkien

    by Sedge on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:21:04 PM PST

  •  two faced scumbags (none)

    EASLEY FOR PRESIDENT 2008!!!!

    by terrond on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:25:35 PM PST

  •  Ahem (none)
    Leave no child's behind.
  •  one more thing (none)
    As I just mentioned my aunt is a long time member of that exact church and I have been there on a number of occasions.  I can guarantee you that their response is that churches are full of sinners not saints and since they promptly fired the guy this will be swept off a a moral failure of that individual not as a failure of the church or the denomination or ideology.  Hell since they promptly fired him they will probably break their arms trying to pat themselves on the back and say how at least they aren't like those heathen Catholic child molestors who covered it up.*

    *Note I don't feel that way towards Catholics as my inlaws and spouse are however my cousin has been sent from that church several times to go "save" the heathen Catholics in El Salvador several times and they as a group hate Catholics and think they worsihp the pope who is the anti-christ.

    In the struggle against evil, there is no shame in defeat -- only in not fighting. -Tolkien

    by Sedge on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:34:10 PM PST

  •  correction (none)
    http://www.theiowachannel.com/news/3976822/detail.html

    "DES MOINES, Iowa -- A Des Moines youth pastor is charged with sexual exploitation by a counselor.

    Michael Hintz

    KCCI learned that the married father of four recently turned himself in to Johnston police."

    The box qutotation is incorrect. Many states have laws explicitly providing for criminal charges for sexual exploitation of a patient, or a person to whom is being counseled.  

    If I send my child to a doctor, and she or he is exploited, even if they are seventeen, then it is a crime.  This is going to become more of an issue as faith-based initiatives such as counseling and social services are supported by government funding.

    The fact is that these churches are NOT always equipped to handle social services, child protection issues, or counseling.  This is just one of the many problems that arise when cost-cutting measures are taken and low qualified people are hired to do a job, or when churches rely on volunteer efforts and pocket the money they receive to fulfill a service.

  •  Unfortunately (none)
    If this story is publicized widely, people will think that, like Hintz, they got a $2,800 tax saving.  (Hintz is probably from the thin unrepresentative slice of middle class taxpayers that Bush touts.)
  •  This freak is the exception (none)
    A caution to not paint all Christians with they hypocracy brush.  The vast majority of Christians that I have ever known realize that they are not perfect, they take responsibility when they make mistakes, and just like most everyone else, are just trying to get through this life.  For every Swaggert and Falwell and pedophile priest there are literally thousands of devout Christian leaders who get up every morning with the single purpose of doing the Lord's work and helping their community.  The amount of work they do compared to the money they make is way out of whack.

    Again, this guy is a freak.  Not the norm.  Use his hypocracy, yes.  But don't let that use make the rift that separate us even greater.

  •  Bush's Gut (none)
    Pointing out the hypocracy of Hintz and the rest of the "moral values" crowd is all well and good (and should be vigorously continued), but what about Bush's vaunted ability to make decisions based on "gut feeling" rather than fact or expert advice?  

    I guess his gut told him what a fine young person Hintz was, so he confidently strode up to the podium to sell the fellow as an example of the kind of person Bush would want to visit Texas.

    This is a great example of how truly lacking Bush's "gut feeling" is, and how little actual judgement goes into his actions!  

  •  citation for the first part? (none)
    its not clear from the "Yesterday" section when Hintz spoke about the tax cuts, or whether Bush had any direct connection to Hintz.  

    Do, or do not. There is no 'try'. - Yoda

    by joewlarson on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:39:13 PM PST

  •  Well, at least... (none)
    ....the tax cuts helped him with the candy budget.

    "A riot is an ugly thing, and I think it's just about time we had one." - Young Frankenstein

    by Doug in SF on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:41:25 PM PST

  •  I feel so sorry for this pedophile (none)
    Because as we all know deep inside, it was the libruls and their high falutin' Jew-movies that made Hintz chase after that young pussy.  Libruls tempt our childrin every day with their wicked ways, an' we got to puts an end to it all!  Why, I'll bet that girl was even part of the ploy, wearing around such a short skirt that we could see her kootch ever so slightly when she uncrossed and crossed her legs.  How can a man do the work of God amidst such librul treachery?

    "The greatest conqueror is he who overcomes the enemy without a blow." - Chinese Proverb

    by Subterranean on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 12:43:55 PM PST

  •  I'm just glad... (none)
    that young man found a way to spend his tax cut "that benefits the economy as a whole."  
  •  I felt uncomfortable about this post... (none)
    and I wasn't sure of why, until I realized, it is this quote:

    It's bad enough these "values" charlatans are moral degenerates. They have to try and foist their false morality down the rest of our throats.

    A reasoned response to the fundamentalists' trumping of the morality issue would be much more useful right now. This is not reason.

  •  Dude, I love it.... (none)
    Keep exposing these hypocrites for what they are. This is what hurts these guys the most, and every one of these righteous assholes shudder in fear every time they see one of their own exposed.
  •  While we're on the subject of hypocrisy... (none)
    If the Fundies are going to insist that the Theory of Creationism be taught in science classes alongside the Theory of Evolution, I am going to insist that Christian churches open their Sunday School classes to science teachers, so that the Theory of Evolution can be taught alongside Bible stories.  For those who would argue, "churches don't get federal and state funding the way public schools do," I will point out that churches are tax-exempt, and by virtue of their tax-exempt status, are very much assisted by Federal and State governments.

    Imagine the hue and cry that would go up if churches were to have their tax-exempt status rescinded?

    Imagine how quickly the Fundies would call for a clear separation of Church and State if they had to allow the Theory of Evolution to be taught in their Sunday School classes!

    On another note...

    I am tired of hearing hypocrites rail against gay marriage because it somehow "violates the sanctity of marriage."  People love to talk about the "great tradition...the sanctity of marriage", etc.  Talk is cheap.  Roughly half of all marriages now end in divorce--despite the "sacred" vow, "'Til death do us part," and despite the "mystical union between Christ and His Church" which is supposed to be reflected in the marriage union.

    If people are so concerned about preserving the "sanctity" of marriage, why aren't they talking about a Constitutional Amendment banning divorce?  Because that's inconvenient; it effects too many of our lawmakers personally.

    Bush said he supports civil unions between gays, just not "marriage."  Remove the "sanctity"/religious factor from the equation, and there is no valid reason against allowing gay marriage, with all the rights and securities of hetero marriages. Such hypocrisy!  It's not a "religious" issue; it's a civil rights issue.

    <<climbs down from soapbox>>

    George Bush vacations in Texas; he LIVES in Denial.

    by Joon on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 01:05:46 PM PST

  •  Your Tax dollars (none)
    at " hard" work.... tax emptions for orgasmic preachers...( add a dot org and your in business)  I bet it adds to the intensity of the orgasm.... not only is he screwing a minor, he is screwing the taxpayers who have subsidized his wicked ways and lifestyle..... the best way to stop this pedophilic epidemic is to take away the tax emptions for the church who hired the pastor. The church itself should be seized and burned to the ground to " cleanse" the wicked lustful energy that has permeated its walls. HOw could any elderly spinster sit in the pews again knowing of the lust that spilled from the preachers groins..my god, he probably did her in the pews..They found a copy of the Kama Sutra in the pews next to the hymnals?..
    This is how we need to attack..... be holier then they are and hold them to their moral values......and lets talk a bit about what actually did happen.. details, like the Clinton years....maybe its time to watch the Exorcist again...Crucifixes instead of cigars...
    Perhaps Castration should be suggested as a way to "cure" pedophic preachers.....then they could sub in the boys choir in a pinch also....Castration can be sold as "divine abstinenece"- Ultimate abstinence.. and we can use the preacher as an example for all those who fall off the " abstinence" bandwagon......Good " moral value" stuff......
  •  Americans ludicrous attitudes about sex (none)
    This man is probably a hypocritical bastard. But one thing that strikes me about the USA these days (an some of the comments) (I am and Amercan who has been living abroad for some years) is just how utterly regressive and infantile the country has become about sex. Abstinency compaigns are just the beginning. Sex needs to be demystified for what it is:  just normal biological activity. Studies have shown that in countries where sex among teenagers is condoned (eg. Holland, Scandanavian countries), the levels of sexual violence are markedly lower than in those in the much of the US, where the result is the frat boy approach to adolescence and early adulthood.  Admittedly this was an older man in a position of authority, and such relationships are unwise, but it was still consensual sex between persons who are old enough to consent. And an ill-considered activity, just because it involves sex, is not "immoral" or sinful.
  •  Testamonial on Hintz (none)
    My god.. I've been googling this guy and here's a testimonial about his unique way of dealing with kids:

    From Trinity Bible College:

    What he really loves about working with youth is seeing God take them out of their comfort zone and radically change the way they see God.

    He will also take time to share some of his unique methods of ministering to the youth of this generation.

    Don't get marginalized. Get even.

    by jmgotham on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 01:10:59 PM PST

  •  Shocker (none)
    My friend's pre-teen daughter was sexually exploited by her friend's husband.  This man is a preacher and coached little league baseball and basketball.  

    It's time these hedonistic hypocrites are stopped.  I'm sick of them judging others when they can't even tell right from wrong.

    "...Bush could kiss Osama bin Laden on national television and Karl Rove could spin it into a punch in the face." - Jim Hoover of Huntington Beach

    by fabooj on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 01:12:44 PM PST

  •  This is the ugliest thread... (none)
    I've ever read on Dailykos in my short time here. It is discouraging to see so many willing to pick apart this man's personal problems as though he represents the majority of those in the fundamentalist camp. As I said, this will stir up, some of the troops, but it won't win any converts.

    Like political party has a monopoly on degeneracy? Come on...

  •  Turn this into an ad (none)
    This would be perfect for People for the American Way. It probably could only run on cable or in a few big cities, but it would "energize the faithful" and start a bigger buzz.
  •  Republician Values (none)
    It just goes to show you that Bush, Rev. Mike Hintz and Republicians are hypocrits. Don't forget, "birds of a feather flock together."
  •  The Psychology of Hypocrisy (4.00)
    First time poster but long time lurker, this topic has me fired up for a post.  In order to confront the mindset that gave us 4 more of Shrub, Grub &Company, you must understand the concept of "projection", that is the psychological mechanism which projects unacceptible psychic contents of our selves onto others.  It is precisely the darkness within which we deny and project onto others like they are a movie screen: now showing the rotten aspects of me which I will never acknowledge because that will make me just as bad as...you! And I must be better than you.  It is the psychological underpinnings of xenophobia (aka the 'us & them game').  A terrific resource for understanding this is Marie Louise Von Franz's "Projection and Recollection".  What makes liberals different than conservatives?  I think it is that we have 'recollected' it better- that is to say, withdrawn our projections from the world and better accept our own frail, fragile, humanity. We recognise ourselves in all people and want to feed, clothe and shelter them because they are LIKE us , not different from us.  All of us are thick as a brick sometimes, fearful as nervous Nellies, and selfish little brats.  Just as we can all be capable of the most brilliant acts of kindness and beauty.  Fear and self-loathing does drive much of organized religions' attractiveness and as such, powers its ability to act as agent of social control.  That's why those wacky Popes were so successful despite the really bad outfits! Couple that with a doctrine of "original sin" and you have a captive audience for all time.  I have had the dubious honor to really crawl into the head of an internationally known televangelist perp whilst serving on a jury for several months weighing evidence, psychological and otherwise, to render judgement on this fellow
    and his cohorts in religious, criminal fraud charges. Projection in all his most fundamentalist exhortions-he was so busy trying to cover up his affairs with both men and women not to mention the financial stupidities he allowed to occur on his watch while attending to darker pursuits, that his 'religious' empire crumbled.  I find that the concept of projection is probably the most important psychological construct for all of us to understand if we are to understand our adversaries. Remember the old Star Trek about the 'good Kirk' versus the 'bad Kirk' and how they were in endless struggle with each other to the death? The 'good Kirk' was getting weaker by the moment from some 'sickness'.  It was not until they  faced each other squarely and embraced, did Kirk regain his strength. He needed to recognize the 'bad Kirk' as part of himself and recollect that projection of evil to become whole again. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to see the 'other' as the enemy, while denying any ownership of the unacceptable psychic contents. Remember, this is a psychological defense mechanism.  The rule of thumb is that you never take away someone's defense mechanism unless you are willing to put a better, healthier one in its place. Our task is to craft the better healthier one. I apologize for the lengthy post but everyone seems so distraught that I thought this might shed a little light.
  •  here they are, by the way (4.00)
    Here's our President with his good friend, sex-offender Mike Hintz (balding guy on left side of photo).

  •  This church... (none)
    is right across the street from an elementary (perhaps middle, can't recall which) school. Its less than 5 miles from my office. Being in close proximity to this really makes the issue hit home. How can someone like that even claim they are a moral athority? When did God say it was time to molest children? Maybe I missed that sermon at my church...
  •  A two-month-old article from American Prospect (none)
    There was an article written by Ayelish McGarvey which appeared in the American Prospect on October 19th which questions whether Bush actually is a Christian, or whether he's faking it, for political benefit:

    AS GOD IS HIS WITNESS

    by Ayelish McGarvey

    Late in the summer, at the Republican national convention in New York, a movie billed as the conservative alternative to Fahrenheit 9/11 debuted for the party faithful. The film, George W. Bush: Faith in the White House, opens with a montage of a billowing American flag, a softly lit portrait of Jesus in Gethsemane, and a shot of the tawny profile of our 43rd president with his eyes gazing heavenward. Myriad times throughout the film Bush is referred to reverently as a man of faith.

    Like no president in recent memory, George W. Bush wields his Christian righteousness like a flaming sword. Indeed, hundreds of news stories and nearly half a dozen books have evinced a White House that, according to BBC Washington correspondent Justin Webb, "hums to the sound of prayer." Yet for the past four years the mainstream press has trod lightly, rarely venturing beyond the biographical to probe the depth, or sincerity, of Bush's Christian beliefs. Bush has no doubt benefited from the media's reluctance; Newsweek, for example, in the heat of the run-up to the Iraq War, ran a cover package on the president's faith under the headline "Bush and God" -- a story whose timing lent the war the aura of having heavenly sanction. Even lefty believers like Jim Wallis, editor of Sojourners, and Amy Sullivan, journalist and Democratic adviser, politely maintain that Bush's faith is strong, if misguided.

    Indeed, in an 8,000-word lamentation appearing in The New York Times Magazine last weekend, Ron Suskind attempted to trace Bush's lack of intellectual curiosity, and the policy disasters that have stemmed from that, back to his relationship with God. "That a deep Christian faith illuminated the personal journey of George W. Bush is common knowledge," Suskind wrote. In other words, the devil, as it were, is lurking among the articles of faith, but not in the heart of the man.

    This is a huge mistake, because when judged by his deeds, an entirely different picture emerges: Bush does not demonstrate a life of faith by his actions, and neither Methodists, evangelicals, nor fundamentalists can rightly call him brother. In fact, the available evidence raises serious questions about whether Bush is really a Christian at all.

    Ironically for a man who once famously named Jesus as his favorite political philosopher during a campaign debate, it is remarkably difficult to pinpoint a single instance wherein Christian teaching has won out over partisan politics in the Bush White House. Though Bush easily weaves Christian language and themes into his political communication, empty religious jargon is no substitute for a bedrock faith. Even little children in Sunday school know that Jesus taught his disciples to live according to his commandments, not simply to talk about them a lot. In Bush's case, faith without works is not just dead faith -- it's evangelical agitprop.

    Richard Land directs the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the conservative Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination and a group that enjoys a close relationship with the Bush administration. In an interview for Frontline earlier this year, Land denounced the scriptural cherry-picking on the part of contemporary American Christians. "It's only been in the last half-century when you've had the rise of groups [in] modern Christendom who believe in what I call `Dalmatian theology,'" he explained. "The Bible's inspired in spots, and ... [t]hey think they can reject large chunks of Christian Scripture and biblical revelation that they don't agree with ... ."

    But while Land's censure was probably intended for liberals, so, too, does it apply to the president. For George W. Bush does not live or govern under the complete authority of the Bible -- just the parts that work to his political advantage. And evangelical leaders like Land who blindly bless the Bush White House don't just muddy the division of church and state; worse, they completely violate Scripture.

    Jesus, after all, didn't do politics.

    * * *
    The president's storied faith journey began at the bottom of a bottle and led him all the way to the White House. But though these accounts ramble on for hundreds of pages about his steadfast leadership and prayerfulness, they all curiously rely on one single event to confirm that Bush is a man transformed by a deep Christian faith: He quit drinking and took up running instead. "I would not be president today," Bush himself told a group of pastoral social workers in 2003, "if I hadn't stopped drinking 17 years ago. And I could only do that with the grace of God."

    But Christianity is more than teetotalism and physical fitness. Conservative believers liken a Christian conversion to a spiritual heart transplant -- one that completely transfigures a person's motivations, sensibilities, relationships, and actions. In the Book of Ezekiel, God tells his children:

    "I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit in you. I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws ... ." (emphasis added) Judging him on his record, George W. Bush's spiritual transformation seems to have consisted of little more than staying on the wagon, with Jesus as a sort of talismanic Alcoholics Anonymous counselor. Bush came to his faith through a small group program created by Community Bible Study, which de-emphasizes sin and resembles a sort of Jesus-centered therapy session.

    But sin is crucial to Christianity. To be born again, a seeker must painfully acknowledge his or her innate sinfulness, and then turn away from it completely. And though today Bush is sober, he does not live and govern like a man who "walks" with God, using the Bible as a moral compass for his decision making. Twice in the past year -- once during an April press conference and most recently at a presidential debate -- the president was unable to name any mistake he has made during his term. His steadfast unwillingness to fess up to a single error betrays a strikingly un-Christian lack of attention to the importance of self-criticism, the pervasiveness of sin, and the centrality of humility, repentance, and redemption.

    Indeed, it is impossible to imagine George W. Bush delivering an address like Jimmy Carter's legendary "malaise" speech (in which he did not actually say the word "malaise") in 1979. Carter sermonized to a dispirited nation in the language of confession, sacrifice, and spiritual restoration. Though it didn't do him a lick of good politically, it was consonant with a Christian theology of atonement: Carter admitted his mistakes to make right with God and the American people, politics be damned. Bush, for whom politics is everything, can't even admit that he's done anything wrong.

    Save for a few standout reporters, the press has done a dismal job of covering the president's very public religiosity. Overwhelmingly lacking personal familiarity with conservative Christianity, political reporters have either avoided the topic or resorted to shopworn clichés and lazy stereotypes. Over and over, news stories align Bush with evangelical theology while loosely dropping terms like fundamentalist to describe his beliefs.

    Once and for all: George W. Bush is neither born again nor evangelical. As Alan Cooperman reported in The Washington Post last month, the president has been careful never to use either term to describe his faith. Unlike millions of evangelicals, Bush did not have a single born-again experience; instead, he slowly came to Christianity over the course of several years, beginning with a deep conversation with the Reverend Billy Graham in the mid-1980s. And there is virtually no evidence that Bush places any emphasis on evangelizing -- or spreading the gospel -- in either his personal or professional life. Contrast this to Carter, who notoriously told every foreign dignitary he encountered about the good news of Jesus Christ.

    If he is anything at all, Bush is nominally Methodist, the denomination of his home church in Dallas. John Wesley, Methodism's founder, emphasized an emotional "warming of the heart" to Christ as fundamental to conversion. (That self-help ethos is evident in the resident's "compassionate conservatism.") But Wesley was equal part freedom fighter: As a pastor in 17th-century England, he was barred from the pulpit for crusading against the abhorrent evils of slavery. Wesley died a poor man, his life a testament to Christ's exhortation of charity in the Gospel of Mark: "Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."

    Bush, on the other hand, is no ascetic firebrand. The president has a net worth of nearly $20 million, and there is no indication that he is on the brink of abandoning his fortune to live righteously with the poor. And unlike Wesley, Bush has never compromised his political standing to challenge the conservative status quo -- regardless of its Christian righteousness.

    The president is, safe to say, a "Dalmatian" Methodist.

    * * *
    Two months prior to launching his first presidential campaign, Bush sat for an interview with The Dallas Morning News to discuss the role of religion in his life and his politics. He spoke evasively and didn't seem comfortable discussing his Christian conviction. "I view my religion as very personal," he explained. "I want people to judge me on my deeds, not how I try to define myself as a religious person of words."

    But the president's supporters in Christendom cling to his words as prima facie evidence of his deep Christian faith. And though Bush is not an evangelical, he certainly talks like one. As has been often noted, Bush effortlessly speaks the language of the born again, and his remarks are loaded with subliminal messages to the nation's 60 million white evangelicals. Ironically, the theology embedded in this language is not even the president's own -- it belongs to Michael Gerson, Bush's crack speechwriter, himself a devout Christian and a graduate of Wheaton College, the "evangelical Harvard." Far too often, though, the press confuses Gerson's words with Bush's beliefs.

    The distinction is critical, as the press, as well as many of Bush's most ardent supporters, curiously points to the president's words, not his deeds, as evidence of his deep Christian faith. In Alan Cooperman's recent Washington Post article, David Frum, a (Jewish) former Bush speechwriter, said of the president's religious beliefs, "If you want to know what George Bush really thinks, look at what he says."

    Ted Haggard, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, has met with the president and advised the Bush White House. "I sat down with [Bush]," he told me. "What I do know is that ... [the president] is an honest guy who really believes what he says."

    Bush's attraction to Jesus jargon is no accident. As an aspiring pol, he learned early on that religious language could give him the cowboy cred he needed to woo voters in Texas. Doug Wead is a close friend of the Bush family and a prominent evangelical motivational speaker. Wead worked closely with the president when he advised George Bush Senior during the 1988 presidential campaign. "There's no question that [George W. Bush's] faith is real, that it's authentic ... and there is no question that it's calculated," Wead told Frontline. "I know that sounds like a contradiction."

    Wead taught Bush Junior to "signal early and signal often" when he spoke to conservative Christians on behalf of Bush Senior. "George would read my memos, and he would be licking his lips saying, `I can use this to win in Texas,'" Wead told Guy Lawson in an article that appeared last year in GQ.

    But in the Bible, Jesus Christ disdained insincere religious posturing. In the famed parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee, the penitent taxman prayed in a far corner of the temple and wept, hiding his face from God in shame. The Pharisee stood up, front and center, and exalted himself, thanking God that he was better than other men. Christ was unequivocal: "I tell you that [the tax collector], rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

    The president has made sure to tell any Christian media outlet that would listen that he reads the Bible daily. Does he skip over the Gospel of Luke?

    Bush's defenders would argue that reproving the president's Christian commitment is opportunistic and cheap, perhaps even sinful. They would say that an outsider could never appreciate the depths of the man's private religious conviction.

    But just as voters will judge his economic track record and his failed war in Iraq, so, too, must believers hold Bush's actions as president to the standard of his professed Christian beliefs. After all, Bush made religious faith his characterological calling card from the outset of his very first campaign. Scripture says we have a right to scrutinize such claims; indeed, Scripture even obligates Christians to protect one another from creeping sinfulness. The author of the letters to the Hebrews in the New Testament left no room for interpretation on this point: "Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart ... . But encourage one another day after day ... lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin."

    Just who will boldly hold the president accountable to Scripture? Sycophantic religious conservatives are heavily invested in politics; they dare not rock the boat. Religious liberals are cast aside as partisan. And as Amy Sullivan noted recently in The New Republic, Bush does not regularly attend church -- he doesn't even have a pastor or fellow congregants to keep him on the straight and narrow.

    For Bible-believing Christians, nothing in the entire world is more important than "walking" with Jesus; that is, engaging in a personal relationship with their savior and living according to his word. With this in mind, I recently asked Haggard, himself the pastor of a large church in Colorado, why the president, as a man of supposedly strong faith, did not publicly apologize for continually misleading Americans in the run-up to the Iraq War. Instead, Bush clung zealously to misinformation and half-truths. I asked Haggard why, as a man of Christian principle, Bush did not fully disavow Karl Rove's despicable smear tactics and apologize for the ugly lies the Bush campaign spread over the years about Ann Richards, John McCain, and John Kerry, among others. After all, isn't getting right with God -- whatever the political price --the most important thing for the sort of Christian Bush has proclaimed himself to be?

    Haggard laughed as though my questions were the most naive he'd ever heard. "I think if you asked the president these questions once he's out of office," Haggard said, "he'd say, `You're right. We shouldn't have done it.' But right now if he said something like that, well, the world would spin out of control!

    "That's why when Jimmy Carter ran, he [turned out to be] such a terrible president. Because when he [governed], he really tried to maintain [his integrity] and those types of values -- and that is virtually impossible."

    The pastor returned to my charges of Bush's deceitfulness. "Listen," he said testily, "I think [we Christian believers] are responsible not to lie [sic], but I don't think we're responsible to say everything we know."

    * * *
    Bush's religious backers like Haggard point to the president's policy agenda as evidence of his spiritual ideals. The Christian spirit of compassionate conservatism, they say, infuses Bush's commitment to policies like faith-based social services; many believers hold that a poverty of the spirit is at least partly to blame for such social ills as drug abuse and crime. Bush's stance on abortion and other so-called life issues is also in concordance with the conservative Christian worldview. And the administration's proposed constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, while theologically dubious, certainly resonates among more traditionalist believers. Even the war in Iraq, on which Bush famously consulted his heavenly (rather than earthly) father, was proffered as an Old Testament-style battle between the forces of good and The Enemy, as such Christians refer to Satan. "Our responsibility to history is already clear: to answer these attacks and rid the world of evil," the president declared after September 11.

    But the aforementioned issues are Christological softballs, as it were. After all, Bush's positions on such matters land him safely in Republican territory. Never once has the president crossed party lines to uphold Christian principles such as aiding the poor or caring for the environment, for example. Much more of the president's record reveals a man with a far deeper commitment to partisanship, or just simply being right -- even at the expense of clear biblical teaching.

    Ironically, the Bush's policy on embryonic stem-cell research, often described by its opponents as a triumph of theocracy over sound public policy, is better understood as just such a victory of partisanship over religious principle. It seems like a lifetime ago, but the debate over embryonic stem-cell research in the summer of 2001 was pitched as a battle between blinkered religiosity and scientific progress. On stem cells, Bush walked a fine line between two powerful constituencies early in his term: To his right, freshly empowered evangelicals and conservative Catholics vehemently opposed the destruction of live embryos, often referring to the cell clusters as "the tiniest human beings"; to his left stood the scientific community and, according to an ABC News/Beliefnet poll conducted at the time, 58 percent of Americans who supported the research.

    On the campaign trail, Bush himself bandied about Catholic "culture of life" lingo while siding with religious conservatives who unequivocally opposed embryonic stem-cell research. "During the campaign, President-elect Bush ... said that as president he would oppose federally funded research or experimentation on embryonic stem cells that require live human embryos to be discarded or destroyed," spokesman Ari Fleischer told reporters in early 2001. The message was clear: Opposing embryonic stem-cell research was a matter of conscience for the new president.

    But as Bush's political viability waned, so, too, did his Christian conviction. By August of 2001, he had finally located the political sweet spot: The president ultimately approved federal financing for research on 60 stem-cell lines that had already been harvested, but prohibited the creation of any new ones. The resulting policy is neither scientifically nor religiously defensible. If the destruction of embryos is the moral equivalent of murder, it should be banned; if it is not, there is no reason to restrict federal funding to already extant stem-cell lines. The decisive ethical issue here concerns the status of the embryo and the legitimacy of its destruction. Bush's position amounts to saying that murder is OK as long as it isn't done with federal funds. But while there may be little that can be said in favor of Bush's position from a moral or research point of view, it's the perfect answer to the president's political program. His base gets messages like "[embryonic stem-cell research] leads down a slippery slope [toward] designer clones," while a general audience recently received a communiqué from the Bush campaign bragging that he "delivered the first funding ever for embryonic stem-cell research."

    Conservative Christians call this moral relativism. But in the simpler language that George W. Bush prefers, it's a "flip-flop."

    * * *
    In Exodus, the Ninth Commandment admonishes, "Thou shalt not bear false testimony against thy neighbor." God wasn't joking around there. But time and again, Bush and Rove have relied on repugnant lies to discredit their opponents. In the final days of the Texas governor's race in 1994, barroom rumors swirled that Governor Ann Richards was a lesbian, and that she had appointed "avowed homosexuals" to her administration. Those rumors were lies, but Bush won the race.

    In 2000, Bush squared off against John McCain in the hotly contested Republican presidential primary in South Carolina. Rather than go one on one with the war hero and popular pol, Bush let shady henchmen do his dirty work for him. In the final days before the showdown, Bush supporters waged whisper campaigns and distributed parking-lot handouts spreading the vilest of lies: that McCain was mentally unfit to serve after his long captivity in Vietnam; that his wife was a drug addict; that the senator had fathered a black daughter with a prostitute.

    Bush won that race, too.

    Little has changed this time around. When the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth emerged this summer to attack John Kerry's admirable military service in Vietnam, veteran observers of past Bush campaigns immediately recognized Karl Rove's handiwork. And with less than a month to go until November, the conservative Sinclair Broadcast Group abruptly preempted regularly scheduled television programming to air a propaganda film that denigrates Kerry's war record. The media markets affected by this decision just happen to be in swing states.

    Just how low will George W. Bush stoop for a victory?

    For most candidates running for office, foul play is par for the course. But Bush is not like most other candidates. If he is a Christian, he is called to be the salt of the earth, the light of the world, a beacon of goodness and righteousness in a society havocked by moral depravity. In late May, Bush said as much to a group of Christian media players during a rare unscripted interview.

    "I think a person's faith helps keep perspective in the midst of noise, pressure, sound -- all the stuff that goes on in Washington ... ," he explained. "It is one of the prayers I ask is that God's light shines through me as best as possible, no matter how opaque the window ... .

    "I'm in a world of ... fakery and obfuscation, political back shots, and so I'm very mindful about the proper use of faith in this process And you can't fake your faith, nor can you use your faith as a shallow attempt to garner votes, otherwise you will receive the ultimate condemnation." (emphasis added)

    You can't, that is, if "ultimate condemnation" is your real concern. For the purposes of winning elections, it seems to do just fine.

    [END OF ARTICLE]

    What have you done today to take Bush and the Bushies down?

    by JTML on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 03:19:53 PM PST

  •  AP Story (draft) (none)
    President Announces Child Molesters Deserving of Tax Relief

    December 7, 2004 - Des Moines 4:15 EST  The White House announced today that child molesters have been added to the exclusive list of those deserving "tax relief."  Speaking at a press Conference, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said that molesters would join a short list that currently includes the very rich, large corporations, and red state residents.

    Said McClellan, "Some have called the President's appearance yesterday with alleged child molester Mike Hintz a mistake.  The President does not make mistakes.  This was part of our plan, all along, to roll out the new policy position."

    McClellan noted that the revenue impact of steering additional tax relief to child molesters would be minor, as most molesters are already part of one of the groups previously favored.

    UPDATED STORY

    The White House clarified this evening that it is only child molesting clergy that he considers worthy candidates of tax-relief, as opposed to all child molesters, as was suggested in an earlier press conference.  The short statement noted, "these men are men of God.  We should not forget this.  We should pray for them - not tax them."

    The statement also noted that if Mr. Hintz's alleged victim had received sufficient abstinence training in school, Mr. Hintz would never have been confronted so egregiously by temptation.  "Dick Cheney will appear on The O'Reilly Factor tomorrow to discuss this failure of our education system and propose $400 million in additional funding for abstinence training as part of the Administration's Faith-Based Initiatives Program."

  •  Talk about divisive... (none)
    Seems Kos and some of his ilk are taking this preference for "moral values" personally, and to the nth degree, which proves to me that a lot of people are missing the point.

    The voters weren't saying "we are more pure than you liberals" - they were saying that they see a general decline in the morals of the society.  

    Taking it personally, then spending your time and energy in finding the bad apples of the "red state dwellers", in my mind, is not the appropriate response.

    The post about teen parent rates, this post today - what is the point?  Why do you feel so attacked?

    Argue all you want about Bush's morals, but the perception is that he is more committed to Christian/conservative morals than John Kerry was, and that factored in their voting.  It is that simple.

    My unsolicited advice:  Stop taking it so personally, realize what these people were saying, decide what your own morals are and live by them.  It is a free country, and you are free to live your life however you choose.  Other people have the right to agree with you.. and to disagree with you...

  •  Mike Hintz (none)
    I found this article while looking up Mike Hintz on Google. It's an article from the Trinity Bible College.

    "Mike has worked with teenagers for the past eleven years. What he really loves about working with youth is seeing God take them out of their comfort zone and radically change the way they see God".
    And
    "He will also take time to share some of his unique methods of ministering to the youth of this generation."

    Is that what he was doing with the 17 year old?
    http://www.trinitybiblecollege.edu/information/publish/article_171.shtml

  •  Missing The Point? (none)
    I cannot agree.  Kerry and his supporters were painted as demons, the very reason for the decline in morals.  The Rovian religiousity smokescreen pandered to the electorate's worst fears: elect Bush else hordes of degenerate monkeys will take your tax dollars to breed and feed other degenerate monkeys and your kind will die out! And God will be very very angry and blame YOU!
  •  Hardblogger on MSNBC had a story also. (none)
    One of the ironic things about a Presidential campaign is that the candidates introduce us to thousands of people who are held out as an "example" of something.  And days, weeks, or months later, we find out the supporter is not somebody the candidate or campaign would ever want to associate with.

    The latest example comes courtesy of the blog www.atrios.blogspot.com .

  •  Thanking dog I'm an atheist (none)
    As the oldest living atheist in the state of Georgia, (I'm 39, they tend to drive us out or kill us off at a much younger age),I can honestly tell you I've never buggered a teenage boy--the idea has never occurred to me to do such a thing. I don't rob, rape, kill or bilk people out of there retirement funds. I have never cheated on my wife nor plan to and I always remember to feed my dog. What I'm saying is that I behave myself, and I do so without refering to a bible or some invisible peeping Tom up in the sky. So when I read stories like this one about the youth pastor it makes me wretch. It does so because these people of faith are greatly revered in this growingly absurd country, and non-believers are looked at as two headed freaks who need to be burned at the stake. And how is it that I didn't catch this story in the liberal news media?
  •  It's the hypocracy stupid ! (none)
    Dont matter if the gal was 12 or 21. the dude was married and abused his position of power over her, while espousing the exact oppositte beliefs and "values"

    the guy is a perverted, anti-family prick, and it would be remiss of us not to make sure as many people as possible know it.

    Republicans wouldnt pass up this golden egg, neither should we.

    I am a Reform Democrat

    by Pounder on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 05:02:17 PM PST

  •  Why does irony hate America? (none)
  •  the dark underbelly of organized religion (none)
    Almost anyone who's been involved with a church can tell you stories about church employees getting sexually involved with congregation members, often kids.  

    It seems to happen all the time.

    Obviously, the churches attract people (almost always men) who are inclined to do this.  And it provides ample opportunity.

    Bad, bad stuff.

    BUT...  and this is a big BUT...

    the conclusion you draw, that therefore anyone who espouses Christian moral values is a hypocrite, is COMPLETELY unjustified.  

    I mean, think about it.  How weak is that logical connection?  So weak it's non-existent.  

    It's just like saying that because some Democratic politicians have been caught stealing or having affairs, all Democrats are morally bankrupt.

    You wouldn't stand for that argument for a moment.  Be consistent and act the same way when the shoe's on the other foot.  

    Unless you're just a political operative, of course.

  •  The Revealer is not amused (none)
    A notice of this thread, on one of my favorite thoughtful religious blogs, The Revealer. Under the "Today" section in yellow.

    http://www.therevealer.org/

  •  age of consent in Iowa (none)
    Actually, the age of consent (for those that are NOT married) in the state of Iowa begins at the age of 14.  At the age of 14 consent can occur in sexual situations as long as there is 5 years or less difference in age.  So, for example, a 14 yr old can be with someone that is age 19.  After the age of 16, consent is a given.

    The law he is charged under references "sexual exploitation" which specifically refers to those in positions of care and/or authority.  So, it's not necessarily a "statutory rape" thing...just a side note

  •  Bad communications staff, no biscuit! (none)
    This reminds me of the incident during the campaign where Bush had an MD on stage with him, and cited the guy as a doctor who had been forced to quit practicing medicine because of frivolous law suits.

    Except that the suits in question weren't frivolous. This was a bad doctor. Apparently nobody on the communications staff bothered to check him outbefore using him as a prop.

    Looks like they got fooled again.

  •  Iowa news realized Bush's faux pas (none)
    TheIowaChannel- Bush Recognized Accused Youth Pastor In Speech

    President Mentioned Hintz Family At October Campaign Event

    POSTED: 3:07 pm CST December 7, 2004
    UPDATED: 3:28 pm CST December 7, 2004
    DES MOINES, Iowa -- Below is an excerpt of President George W. Bush's speech in Des Moines on Oct. 4. It references Michael Hintz, a Des Moines youth pastor who was charged with sexual exploitation by a counselor. (Read complete story.)

    President George W. Bush recognized Michael Hintz and his family during a Des Moines campaign event in October.

    "One of those families is the Hintz family, from Clive, Iowa. Thank you all for coming. (Applause.)

    "It's a special day for Mike and Sharla, not because they're with the President or with Chairman Grassley, but because it's their 13th wedding anniversary. (Applause.) Theirs is a typical story...

    Which pill do you want to take ?
    Blue - Election fraud, Taliban R Us, Reality
    Red - No fraud, All is peachy, It's Clinton's fault, Faith based!

    by lawnorder on Tue Dec 07, 2004 at 08:42:32 PM PST

  •  Broad brushing Christians (none)
    I don't think any of us are suggesting that all Christians/Born Again Believers are phonies.

    And I don't think I'm taking the Fundi "holier than thou" attitude too personally.

    My beef is simply that I don't believe we can legislate morality with regard to complex social moral issues.  

    "Conviction of sin" is a spiritual phenomenon which can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit.  When it is human-induced, it's call judgmentalism.

    I am a stong believer in separation of church and state.  Period.  Leave the spiritual stuff to God.  Why should someone's religious beliefs become my secular laws?  Isn't that what theocracies are about?

    -Joon  

    George Bush vacations in Texas; he LIVES in Denial.

    by Joon on Wed Dec 08, 2004 at 07:01:18 AM PST

  •  In today's paper (none)
    This was in the Minneapolis Star Tribune today - the juxtaposition of the two stories about Hintz. I think Kos is getting into the mainstream media:

    http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5124984.html

  •  He Certainly Got to Practice his Love (none)
    Wonder how he would feel about her getting an abortion if he knocked her up?

    With a big ol' lie And a flag and a pie And a mom and a bible Most folks are just liable To buy any line Any place, any time ~ FZ

    by f furney on Wed Dec 08, 2004 at 07:20:53 AM PST

  •  futility of escape (none)
    People jumped at David Brooks when he wrote that people move to exurbs to have a better, safer envornment for their children, with fewer immoral distractions.

    From what I understand, this is often the case.  Similarly it is true that many people buy SUVs to be safer.

    The problem is that raising children in exurbs has its share of severe problems, and SUVs are excellant for ramming other drivers to death but also for ending your own life with a bang (a spectacular roll-over) rather than a whimper.

    One thing about the escape to defend the children: are exurban girls educated that they must be vigilant against any kind of creep that would like to take advantage of them, including all patriarchal authority figures?  Take the case of basketball coach in Douglass County, CO.  Taking advantage of one girl does not mean much about the community, but if he could do it serially, this suggests that girls were conditioned to defer to authority figures, and here parents and "community values" can be blamed.

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