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A quote from from Republican Party Chairman Chris Vance regarding 561 votes found in King County:

Republicans are now "absolutely convinced that King County is trying to steal this election," said Republican Party Chairman Chris Vance.

"There are Republicans urging us to organize mass protests, to take to the streets," Vance said. "At some point people's patience just runs out."

He's threatening violence.

Sounds like another Brooks Brothers Riot in the making.

They'll stage a rent-a-riot, and then they will use that to argue for halting the vote count.

It's Miami all over again.

The Democrats in Washington State need to STOP DRINKING DECAF.

You need at least a hundred REALLY SCARY PEOPLE on call, so when the 'Phants show up, they aren't confronted by some Milquetoast saying, "Can't we all just get along?"

I'm talking Teamsters, longshoremen, bikers with sleeveless jackets and tattoos.

Originally posted to msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:35 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Rate this diary. (3.94)
    I'm completely serious.

    The Republicans will deliberately create civil disorder in order to argue against completing the recount.

    The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

    by msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:27:17 AM PST

    •  Perhaps They should think twice (4.00)
      Bringing attention to this might actually force the national media to take a closer look at Ohio. Bush might not want this to happen. And if they did protest it might actually make dems wake up and see how the repugs play to win.

      With a big ol' lie And a flag and a pie And a mom and a bible Most folks are just liable To buy any line Any place, any time ~ FZ

      by f furney on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:32:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  i've actually been wondering about this (none)
        to me, it seems the national repubs have been largely quiet about this.....

        hmmmm......wonder what they know....hmmmm

        Recession means that people's incomes, at the employer level, are going down, basically, relative to costs, people are getting laid off. Bush

        by krazypuppy on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 01:20:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  media alert! (none)
        My friend's husband heard Hannity & Colmes say on the radio this evening that FOX will be covering the Ohio recount issue tonight. Guess it will be on their show.
    •  But ... (4.00)

      ... as I quoted in my diary here last night, the Republican attorneys used the King County 561 as an example of the system working properly -- where the local officials discovered an error, and took steps to rectify the error.

      So Mr. Vance had better watch the tape of yesterday's Supreme Court hearing aired on CSPAN2.

      Hope we hear from the (WA) Supremes today!

      Susan in Port Angeles (my cat)

      by SusanHu on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:43:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  and thanks for keeping this topic toasty! (4.00)
        Good post.  Loved the Brooks Brothers link!

        Maybe our new battle cry should be,

        "SAVE THE WASHINGTON 561!

        ALL POWER TO THE PEOPLE'S VOTE!

        (even county councilmen and maybe a Republican or two, too!)"

        Or in the spirit of the GOP's fav season:

        "HO, HO, HO, CHRIS VANCE PIN [head]
        THE DEMOCRATS ARE GONNA WIN!" *

        --
        *ref: Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh,
        The NLF's Gonna Win (circa 1968, which dates me)

        Better suggestions welcome.

        Susan in Port Angeles (my cat)

        by SusanHu on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:58:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Vance (none)
        Is such a hypocrite and a fucking tool.
    •  Whoa there big fella (4.00)
      The last time I checked, that's why we have police forces. In Florida, the Brooks Brothers Riot was just a front for the state government that couldn't legally force the counties to stop counting. In Washington State, the Democrats have a voice in the government so there is no reason to have gang warfare in the streets.
      •  There's always reason for such warfare (4.00)
        If they think they can set foot in my city (Seattle) and pull shit like was pulled in Florida and get away with it, they're sorely mistaken.

        I also have zero trust in the SPD to do anything right. Knowing them they'd turn on us sooner than they'd turn on the wingers.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

        by eugene on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:04:18 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Seattle Police? (4.00)
        The ones that drove a tank through Capitol Hill during the WTO police riots? The ones that lobbed tar gas grenades into people's front yards randomly? The ones that used horses to trample sitting non-violent protestors?

        I think I'd go with the longshoremen and bikers.

        •  No doubt. (none)
          The ones that threw me in jail in Dec. '99 for refusing to disperse in a peaceful protest because I was in a "protest-free zone," then held me and 500 other people illegally for 72 hours without access to lawyers and handed out semi-random beat-downs to terrorize us into submission?

          Hallelujah.  If I have to trust THEM to protect me from the Bush Administration then things are A LOT worse than I thought.

    •  Breaking News: 9:40 am PST (none)
      Seattle Times reporting this:
      The Democrats' ballot lawsuit was unanimously rejected by the state Supreme Court. More details to come.

      Don Rumsfeld: the new Marie Antoinette

      by lapin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:33:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Schwarzenegger and "rioting " (4.00)
      Last year when thousands of gay couples were peacefully and beautifully getting married at San Francisco City hall, our illustrious governator went on the Tonight show with his syncophant jay Leno and told the national viewing audience that he might have to call out the California National Guard "because people were rioting in the streets."

      He was later forced to retract that statement (in a much less prominent forum) because no such thing was happening and the gay community was outraged.  I was present during  much of the weddings at City Hall, and outside of soome nasty and offensive signage carried by "Christian" wingnuts, rather than a mood of violence, there was generally one of paient waiitng and joyous celebration.

      Republicans love to appeal to the need for public order only when it benefits them politically and suppresses any opposition point of view.

      "Never give up, never surrender"

      by wonkydonkey on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:22:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  One of the dumbest diaries ever (3.25)
      ... and a predictably long list of recommendations.

      Nobody listens to Chris Vance.

      Nobody is taking it to the streets, except the homeless.

      And even some of them are hard at work on the recount.

      •  thank you (none)
        when i clicked into this diary i was expecting to see some sort of actual threat of violence. this dipshit (and in this case, i'm talking about the republican) did nothing of the sort, he only said what we were all saying 6 weeks before the election: "if they try to pull any funny stuff, we're totally going to go into the streets".

        you can go into the streets peacefully or not. if he had said "we're going into the streets to fuck people up" that would be different.

        this is the problem with the liberal blogosphere.

        the dharma blog: from fly-fishing to politics to marriage.

        by the dharma bum on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 02:28:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Than why are you here? (4.00)
          This "liberal blogosphere" that so confounds you contains people who remember the Brooks Brothers riot and were shocked by it.  Yep, we didn't expect it last time.  We thought they were civilized -- selfish, arrogant, and pushy, but civilized.  I fail altogether to see why it's unreasonable to be expecting them to go bonkers again this time -- particularly as this recount might unseat a Republican.  The GOP is not known for its restraint, and anyone who expects restraint from them is deluded.
          •  I'm not here much (none)
            ...anymore. and don't you worry about me remembering the brooks brothers riot and all that shit.

            i've been coming here for a long time, but it's becoming less and less frequent the more i see hysterical and hypocritical shit like this.

            the dharma blog: from fly-fishing to politics to marriage.

            by the dharma bum on Wed Dec 15, 2004 at 06:21:44 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  stick a token black like Colin Powell in the pic.. (none)
      that all-white middle aged photo can use some photoshopping

      stick malcolm X or Dr. king in that photo of the republican
      all white club...

      I noticed they found a female or 2 for the photo op.

    •  Yeah, wait til those wimpy 'Phants come up against (none)
      our latte drinking, volvo-driving, butch-dike construction workers in Seattle. They will run for the exits, and never dare show their preemptive butts in WA again.
    •  Number six (none)
      (Kids in the Hall reference) looks like Mr.Wharton with died hair. Just coincidence for sure as he's now doing appointed elsewhere after kicking a woman.
  •  So... (4.00)
    let me get this straight.  Republicans say we're sore losers when we say there's something wrong, yet when they accuse us of wrongdoing, they fledge an all-out war?  Talk about sore-losers... or are just fearful they will lose.

    Someone should strike a deal.  We'll agree not count those "lost" absentee ballots in WA; so long as every precinct, in every county, of every state, recounts it's ballots for president.  Deal?

    •  Well you have to admit (3.81)
      wanting to count the votes to get a fair election is not business as usual for them.  I'm sure all their hard work going down the drain is very upsetting.

        But I agree with another poster , this could really boomerang and get the MSM onboard and I don't know if they would like that kind of scrutiny.

    •  SOP for the GOP (4.00)
      let me get this straight.  Republicans say we're sore losers when we say there's something wrong, yet when they accuse us of wrongdoing, they fledge an all-out war?

      That's how they've been playing this game for 20 years, shouldn't be shocking this time around. We know how they play the game, time to throw some elbows back at 'em, and no whining this time.

      They wanna play games? Let's play games.

      •  Protests vs Dissidents (3.40)
        Isn't it hilarious how the mainstream media report that the Dems are dissidents while the Rethugs are protestors?  We're not working against just the party thugs, we're up against mainstream media.  That means we have to work twice as hard.
        •  'Dissident' is synonym for 'insurgent' n/t (none)

          'dissident' one who opposes authority

          'insurgent' one who rises in revolt

          They are synonyms on Oxford's Thesaurus

          I love words and I abhorr the way the wingers are playing these word games.

          •  Ignore the 'no text' in subject line (none)
            I later changed my mind.
          •  according to the "news"... (none)
            ... insurgents are "terrorists".  Remember that every time you hear a report about the ongoing Iraqi civil war.
            •  If demonstrators and protesters (4.00)
              = dissidents

              and

              dissidents = insurgents

              and

              insurgents = terrorists

              then
              demonstrators/protestors = terrorists

              That is, according to the wingers.

              •  And thus (none)
                The GWB policy of "Free Speech Zones" and how they get away with using the Secret Service to squash the free speech rights of Americans to even listen to their President speak in public, and register their opinions before him.  

                In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

                by a gilas girl on Wed Dec 15, 2004 at 05:15:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Ah words. (4.00)
                If
                Republicans urging mass protests

                and mass protests = large scale demonstrations
                and large scale demonstrations = lots of protesters
                and protesters = dissidents
                and dissidents = insurgents
                and insurgents = terrorists  

                Then
                Republicans are urging large scale terrorism.

                Ah words.

                A few words:

                • GOP dissidents are urging a mass uprising...
                • Violence mustn't stop Washington elections.
                • The capacity of these insurgents to stop an election would send a wrong signal to the state.

                Those last two are paraphrased Bush quotes, so they are unassailible.

                I know that what they have right now are words.  I know that they have not threatened violence at this point.  Frankly, I don't give a damn.  Keep after them with thier words, and don't worry about 'fairly characterizing'.  They only whine about that when you're getting warm.  This could be very embarassing for them this time around, and they know it.

                "Politics isn't about big money or power games; it's about the improvement of people's lives" - Paul Wellstone

                by nullspace on Wed Dec 15, 2004 at 06:30:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Goldfish doesn't understand the ratings system (none)
          There is not way that the above post is a
          supertroll.
    •  Consistancy is not their strength (4.00)
      The republican party is the party of hypocrisy.  They criticize democrats for trying to appoint partisan judges, then proceed to appoint extremely partisan judges.  They criticize democrats for not giving power to the minority party, then proceed to cut the democrats out of power entirely.  They criticize democrats for not supporting the troops, then proceed to not give the troops armour.  

      We have to stop expecting them to be fair, and stop worrying when they criticize us.  Hit them hard, frequently, and loudly.  Criticize them for everything they do, and some of it will stick.  We have to stop worrying about being looked at as obstructionist - people expect the opposing party to obstruct the party in power.  We have to stop worrying about being seen as sore losers - they arn't worried about that.  We have to stop letting them manipulate us into being weak.

      •  It's Not Hypocrisy--It's A Core Belief! (4.00)
        I'm not being flippant here. There are two lines of research documenting attitudes that correlate with political conservatism, not just in the US, but across the board. ("Conservatism" here is defined sociologically, so it would encompass hardline Communists in the former Soviet Union.)

        One of these is called rightwing authoritarianism (RWA), the other is called social dominance orientation (SDO).  Both of them involve seeing the world in terms of in-groups and out-groups, who are seen as deserving to be treated by different standards.

        While the dominance of liberal ideas--due to centuries of struggle--minimizes the overt expression of these views, it is relatively easy for researchers to scratch the surface and get people to express these views openly.

        One particularly interesting example of this is the fact that people who say they favor ending affirmative action because it perpetuates group differences are more likely to score higher on SDO--a measure of support for perpetuating group differences, with violence, if necessary.

        Operation 'Fool Me Once' -- Targeting Papers That Endorsed Bush in 2000

        by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:45:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then why didnt' they respect the democrats... (4.00)
          when the democrats were in power?  I'm not challenging what you are saying, it makes sense. But as I interpret what you are saying, the right believes that they have special perks because they are in power.  Then, if they are consistant, they should have recongized that the left had special perks when we were in power, and respected that. But they didn't - the complained bitterly about how we were abusing our authority.  
          •  Clarification (4.00)
            It's not about respecting who's in power. It's about dominant social groups on one hand (SDO) and perceived social authorities (RWA) on the other.

            SDO naturally favors dominant social groups--men over women universally, the rest is quite arbitrary. So who's in power is totally irrelevent, except that when liberals (real or perceived) are in power it diminishes their respect for government--which increases again when conservatives come to power.

            RWA is much more shaped by home, family, church and socialization experience. In other words, it's intensely local. The federal government is relatively far away. It's authorities close at hand--such as church leaders, local business leaders, etc.--who tend to have disproportionate influence. Political leaders who don't fit into the role that RWAs expect probably just won't gain their support.

            Operation 'Fool Me Once' -- Targeting Papers That Endorsed Bush in 2000

            by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 12:23:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks (none)
              I'm not sure I understand this, but I'm going to e-mail it to myself to look into further when I have more time (i.e. after christmas).  
              •  Check Out Dkosopedia (none)
                I've made some initial entries you can see from the
                Dkosopedia Political Ideologies page. Go down to the bottom and you'll see a section "Understanding Liberalism v Conservatism," where I have an preliminary entry for RWA and an empty stub for SDO.  I'll try to put something up about it in the next few days.

                Operation 'Fool Me Once' -- Targeting Papers That Endorsed Bush in 2000

                by Paul Rosenberg on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 12:49:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Can you give me some links... (none)
                  ...that go further into this than the dkosopedia entry.  This is something that I've been seeing in conservatice behavior since 1994 (at least) and I've been trying to discern the rationale for it unsuccessfully.  You've put it in clear and simple terms, which makes me think that you've actually put a great deal of thought into it.
            •  Huh.... (none)
              That does gel for me in a lot of ways, espescially the part about localized control.

              I am definitely of the thinking we need to 'get local', and intensly, at that.  But I don't think that wanting to mirror that level of organization or  the scope (local, in this case) makes me RWA or SDO in anyway!

              I'm curious.  Where do our local instituions (liberal churches, community groups, local political parties, civic governence) fit into this line of thinking?

              "Politics isn't about big money or power games; it's about the improvement of people's lives" - Paul Wellstone

              by nullspace on Wed Dec 15, 2004 at 06:38:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You'd Make A Good Researcher! (none)
                "I'm curious.  Where do our local instituions (liberal churches, community groups, local political parties, civic governence) fit into this line of thinking?"

                I'm not aware of any research that's looked into this in detail, though Altemeyer does have something to say about this. (See link to his book in my nearby comment.) This is just the sort of question-asking that makes a good social science researcher!

                Operation 'Fool Me Once' -- Targeting Papers That Endorsed Bush in 2000

                by Paul Rosenberg on Wed Dec 15, 2004 at 06:56:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Because -- To them, elections are not (4.00)
            the ultimate legitimizer of Power.  Bill Clinton was elected; "So what," they replied.

            To them, Power legitimizes itself.  Power is Power, attained by any means necessary.  Elections are only a first attempt.  If you win, fine; that was the easy way.  If you lose, sandbag the winner in office.

            Does anyone here think that the perpetual inquisition by Ken Starr, leading up to the impeachment for the "blue dress" "crime" was not an insane devolution in American politics?

            It had no other logical basis for existing than the drive for ultimate power of a band of fanatics.

            The scary thing, of course, is that disrespect for the political process means that these people will practice violence when other means don't attain their ends.  They are a short skip and jump from it most times anyway.

            (Though it comes in a two-part package: some pudgy little droid at a keyboard getting the less-literate fired up, and then those lunks who "get the call" and go out to bash...)

            Machieavelli to the Max.  Or Vince Lombardi, "Winning is the only thing."  And they don't mean just elections.

            What Would Gandhi Do?

            by HenryDavid on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 12:30:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You could be describing al Qaeda (none)
              or Osama bin Laden & Co.

              "It had no other logical basis for existing than the drive for ultimate power of a band of fanatics."

            •  Actually, it did serve a purpose (none)
              for the republicans.  The laws that allowed for a "Special Prosecuter" were up for renewal. The republicans hated these laws because they had been used against them one too many times.  After all of the Lewinsky nonsense, everybody in Congress was sick enough of special prosecutors that they let the laws expire. Now, Democrats don't have the ability to call for a special prosecutor to investigate Bush.
      •  Consistency is not a necessity when you create (none)
        your own reality
    •  Yes, let' make a deal (none)
      You've got to hand it to those Rethugs...  They know how to organize a protest.
  •  Well (3.77)
    I wouldn't take the statement provided to mean that violence is incited. Encouraging street protests does not equate to encouraging a riot. Did you view the recent protests in Kiev as a riot? People have a right to congregate and protest - even those that you don't agree with.

    Now I do agree that what happened in Fla 4 years ago was a well staged, media swindle organized by the GOP leadership, and I second your call for vigilance.

    I ask that we not be so quick to condemn an action that we ourselves employ. Respect our adversaries, and they will take defeat a lot better.

    •  This would work if they were worth respecting (4.00)
      Respect our adversaries, and they will take defeat a lot better.

      Have you seen any examples of this in the last 8-12 years? They're in this to win, fair or not, and they don't respect the rules.

      Not saying you're wrong, only that we shouldn't expect respect for democracy, or law. If 2000 was the template for this action, they're after power and they're not going to go quietly even if we beat 'em fair and square.

    •  No Kidding. I just don't see the violence... (4.00)
      Even the Brooks Brother "riot" in Miami weren't actually violent.  Dishonest, underhanded, etc, but not violent.

      It is NOT good idea to reinforce the MSM's dominant narative that protest is inherently violent.  There are already too many threats to our rights of free assembly and free speach from the right.  We need to fight to protect these rights, and to make people aware of just how important they are, not undermine them by equating protest with violence when we don't agree with the subject of the protest.

      To paraphrase a more famous saying: When protests are outlawed, only outlaws will have protests.

      Jon Stewart for President! C'mon, why not?

      by zarza tenaz on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:07:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  sorry to offend (3.33)
        had the dems pulled that shit in florida they would have been gassed then shot... yeah it IS violence, the violence of the state...

        "fuck your war... and your president."--Snake Plissken

        by binFranklin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:26:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Um, I think you are actually agreeing with me... (4.00)
          Or maybe I am agreeing with you-

          Protesting the violence of the state is not the same thing as engaging in violence... The fact that the state employs violence to supporess protest is the reason why we need to be vigilent in protecting everyone's right to protest.

          And Seattle protesters certainly know a thing or two about being gassed and shot.

          Protest does not equal Violence.  Period. Sometimes the two co-exist, and the solution is to remove the violence from the protest, not to ban all protests.

          Jon Stewart for President! C'mon, why not?

          by zarza tenaz on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:34:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  my petty quibble (none)
            is that the Brooks Bro mob was treated differently than any other mob would have been if they had tried the same thing.

            if there had been one set of dreadlocks in that crowd the national guard would have been there.

            "fuck your war... and your president."--Snake Plissken

            by binFranklin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:04:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Cops are generally strongly Republican (none)
              and SPD is no different -- their union (Seattle Police Officers Guild) endorsed all Republicans in 2004.

              Kerry/Edwards: For a reality-based America

              by Em on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:59:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  maybe not violent, but... (3.25)
        they sure as hell harrassed and intimidated the voting officials who were working there. Just because swings weren't thrown and blood wasn't shed,  doesn't mean they were conducting a nice, peaceful protest.

        my weblog and my website - they're, uh, in progress, OK?

        by snookybeh on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:32:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why the low rating? (none)
          Goldfish, this post is not a troll.  Maybe you accidentally confused it with another?  Please remove your rating, or change it to a "4".  Thanks.

          "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

          by Subterranean on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:58:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Intimidation IS violence (none)
        the threat of violence, if it has an effect, is just as bad
      •  completely agree (4.00)
        Where is the proof of violent threat? Just because the author bolded the phrase?

        Protest=free speech

        taking to street=lawful assembly.

        unless you want to see it otherwise.

        •  do you think they will (none)
           be wearing turtle suits and dragging lame-ass puppets around?

          "At some point people's patience just runs out."

           true dat!

          this is my home.  

          "fuck your war... and your president."--Snake Plissken

          by binFranklin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:49:09 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  We do? (3.75)
      I ask that we not be so quick to condemn an action that we ourselves employ.

      Really?

      Where are our Democratic bretheren protesting?

      I heard about the Ohio protests, but for only a moment.

      I'm sorry for the fact that what I'm about to say will piss off more people than not, but we're great at talking & discussing great ideas, and not much more.

      So the suspicious activities in Florida don't deserve a protest?
      So the suspicous activities in Arizona, or was it New Mexico, by Sproul & co don't deserve a protest?
      If they do, why haven't the Dems done ANYTHING?
      If they don't, why did/do we hold these actions so dispicable without exerting an effort accordingly?

      The Republikkkans would have been protesting every day since Nov. 2. Everyone seems outraged, if not outright depressed, but not ONE leader or psuedoleader of the left has culminated the energies of the angry Dems into anything meaningful.

      Why do you think the MSM doesn't follow any of this?
      We didn't protest.

      We have no outrage.
      We have no action.
      We have no plan.
      We have no hope.

      Get pissed at me if you want - I don't care. It'll be another textbook example of misguided & misdirected energies.

      "I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV."

      by zeitshabba on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:33:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, (3.66)
        there is truth to what you say. I drove for four hours with two other people to go to the voting rights rally in Raleigh on Sunday and there were only 100 people there.

        There were apparently only 100 people in the rally in Ohio on Sunday too and on Monday, there were none!

        So, where are you guys? Some of you need to move away from the computer and go out in the streets.

        However, in terms of having a plan, my feeling is that, at this point, every person needs to do whatever he or she can. We have few or weak leaders, there is a formidable opposition and each of us must take it upon ourselves to act in spite of this.  It would be great if we had powerful and charismatic leaders, but during the Civil Rights movement, people who spoke up and acted became those leaders.

        Please speak up and act.

      •  Well, maybe not nationally, but I've been to two (none)
        protests here in Washington (one on November 3rd, which culminated in a mass die-in in the middle of a busy intersection).

        If you scroll down the comments here you can actually see a picture from a protest held yesterday (I think it's from Olympia).

        Maybe you should organize a protest where you are?  

        If you want things to be different, go change something.  

        Jon Stewart for President! C'mon, why not?

        by zarza tenaz on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:44:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No problem in doing what I can. (3.50)
          But in Boston, there isn't as much that I have been able to do.

          My parents live in Florida, and tried to get involved early in 2004 to do whatever they could.

          They were hoping to help with registration drives, with GOTV efforts, with demanding better balloting & voting measures... and what did they get back from the local Dem party?

          Venom. How dare someone who loves Democracy and strongly supports the Democratic party question their leaders? They were busy trying to figure out how to get money, not get the job done. They ignored the battle before them while tring to fight the battle behind them.

          When you stop & think about it, our party is very similar to the Administration. The big difference is the Republikkkans figured out if you get the power, the money follows. We're still working at this in reverse.

          "I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV."

          by zeitshabba on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:06:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  You are quite correct (none)
        in lamenting the lack of organized and obvious DNC protest regarding Ohio and Fla.

        My comment was more directed to actions of the past, i.e. protests of the invasion of Iraq, etc.

        Cheers

    •  They will take defeat a lot better(?) (none)
      I hope that they choke on humble pie and eating crow.
  •  Already there (4.00)
    They'll stage a rent-a-riot, and then they will use that to argue for halting the vote count.

    The vote count won't be halted without a court ruling as the current hand-recount is provided for under state law.

    The Democrats in Washington State need to STOP DRINKING DECAF.

    They aren't. We raised the money to pay for the hand recount. We put pressure on Gregiore to stay in the fight rather than giving up. We've had rallies and protests already. If the GOP tries another Miami all of the usual suspects from the left will be out there to support Gregiore.

    So far the system provided for under law has worked for the dems so we can afford to ignore the GOP whining.

    You need at least a hundred REALLY SCARY PEOPLE on call, so when the 'Phants show up, they aren't confronted by some Milquetoast saying, "Can't we all just get along?"

    I'm talking Teamsters, longshoremen, bikers with sleeveless jackets and tattoos.

    Sounds like a typical Seattle protest except it is missing the punker kids with weird hair. ;-)

    In any case I'm sure the King County Labor Council has some union members on call to "observe" should it become necessary.

  •  Republican protests (3.21)
    "There are Republicans urging us to organize mass protests, to take to the streets," Vance said. "At some point people's patience just runs out."

    This is a call to violence?  I'm not even going to take the time to find the thousands of more threatening protests organized by liberal groups from anti-war to anti-globalization.  It says they are upset and are going to protest.  Maybe it's out of character.  But for gosh sakes, it sounds pretty tame.  Where are the anarchists and "assault the corporations" factions?

    Please don't overblow the rhetoric.  This in and of itself is not hinting at violence.

    •  I agree (4.00)
      I don't see a call to violence in that report and, frankly, I think the diary title is sensationalist.

      Would you appreciate it if the Democrats called for protests and Republicans framed it as "Democrats Threaten Violence"? No. I didn't think so.

      Public protest is a right for all and its importance should not be diminished by being tainted as a call to violence.

      •  That's exactly what they do (4.00)
        Would you appreciate it if the Democrats called for protests and Republicans framed it as "Democrats Threaten Violence"? No. I didn't think so.

        If we were engaged in civil politics, I'd agree with you. But we're not, that's exactly what they do. See Schwarzenegger's comments about rioting in the streets during the SF Wedding movement.

        Republicans don't yell and whine about our actions because they honestly feel that we're being unfair. They do it to shape media perception. They're not opposing us on principle, they're trying to crush us.

        I look at it this way. There were maps of the solar system before Copernicus and Galileo, and they were accurate, but they looked like spaghetti, it was only when you put the Sun at the center that all those arcs and squiggles turned into concentric circles.

        When you look at any Republican initiative, be it media, legislative, or otherwise, look at it through the lens of them cynically trying to push the ball as far down the field as they can, no matter the consequences in our lives, with the goal of crushing us as a party and concentrating their own power, much as they seek to conentrate wealth. The concentric circles and ellipses become clear when you put that at the center of their political solar system.

        Appreciation and manners in dealing with the Republican party are over, that offramp went by miles and years ago. It's go time.

        •  iow (none)
          Dems should sacrifice their principles because Republicans do? Sorry. Not buying it.
          •  This is not about whether or not we should lie. (none)
            The Republicans have orchastrated civil disturbances to disrupt ballot counting.

            Google "Shut it down."

            When Buchanan talks about rich Wall Street bankers getting us into war, we know that he is talking about "The Eternal Jew".

            When Reagan talked about welfare mothers, he meant N**.

            There is a subtext about what people say depending upon where they are coming from.

            Look at the quotes:

            ... absolutely convinced that King County is trying to steal this election."

            "There are Republicans urging us to organize mass protests, to take to the streets," Vance said. "At some point people's patience just runs out."

            This is more than a threat of violence in the context of Republispeak.  

            It is a *SPECIFIC INCITEMENT.

            The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

            by msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:45:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  sorry (none)
              This is more than a threat of violence in the context of Republispeak.  

              It is a *SPECIFIC INCITEMENT.

              First it was "violence" and now it's "more than a threat of violence"? What does that mean?

              It is a specific incitement - an incitement to protest, not to commit acts of violence. You can infer whatever you like from their words, but I stand firm in believing that a call to protest is not a call to violence. I just don't see it.

            •  I'm sorry (none)
              but you're getting carried away. no matter how you bold your font and raise the caps on "specific excitement" I don't think your interpretation is warranted, and I hate to see people stirred up to the point where they are saying "let's riot" . "bring it on" and having all these fantasies about the police protecting repubs and gassing dems.

              it's melodramatic.

              •  You're giving mojo to wingnut (none)
                Doverspa, who started this line of argument is an ardent supporter of Senator-elect Coburn from Oklahoma.  Check out his website....

                He starts these intra-democratic spats and then exists. I didn't troll rate him but I don't think giving him mojo is such a good idea.

                •  typo (none)
                  Doverspa starts a fight and then "exits", not exists.
                  •  doverspa (none)
                    He didn't start a fight. He expressed an opinion which we are discussing.
                    •  think this is accurate (none)
                      there were at least a few people who saw no connection between the quote & encitement to violence before doverspa posted.

                      I was giving the best rates to people who seemed to be rejecting the hysteria....and I gave low rates to some I normally agree with.

                      mea culpa. just don't like frenzy.

                      •  Let doverspa speak (none)
                        But I feel that Democrats are too nice--we invite in and talk to everyone with the hope or expectation that we can reason together.

                        We need to be much tougher than that.  We need to frame the debate in Ann Coulter like clarity.  Let others (like Obama) be the statesmen.  We need some real traction.  

                •  whatever (none)
                  Whatever you may call him, his opinions in that post are not "wingnut", unless you consider me a wingnut as well for agreeing with him. I judge posts on the merit of the argument and how it's presented - not on the person who posts them.
                  •  I agree his post is not wingnut (none)
                    But don't you suppose caution should be the key here?  I did not troll-rate, or super troll rate his post.

                    Democrats have been givng away the store for too long by being ultra-nice.  

                  •  This is voter suppression (none)
                    For example, don't you think telling certain voters that they should make sure they are current on their child support payments before they vote is a form of voter intimidation?  One could say that only the guily need worry.  But it is the IMPLIED threat of investigation etc.

                    You assume that Republicans have the same mindset about protests that Democrats do, i.e., they are there just there to make a point, not stop the vote count from going forward.  In light of the Brooks Brothers riot in Florida in 2000, just what is one to assume when Republicans threaten to "take to the streets" WHILE the votes are being counted?

                    The entire point, given the context of the comment, is to STOP the vote counting.  And just how are they going to do that by "peacefully" protesting?

                    Don't be naive.

                •  I don't exit (none)
                  I always mark the diaries and read responses.  Just in case you cared.
          •  Standing Up And Fighting The Bastards (none)
            Is one of my principles. I'm not asking you to stage a Brooks Bros. Riot, catnip, I'm simply asking people to understand the nature of the enemy. If enemy's too strong a word for us to stomach, then I apologize, but I didn't declare war on them.

            That's just how I see it.

            •  yes we are at war with them (none)
              But that doesn't mean we have to resort to the same tactics they use. We do need to understand the nature of the "enemy". I don't have a problem with that word, but we also need to be clever enough to outwit them. If we just use their tactics, we are predictable and it becomes a very dirty street fight. That's why I believe we can't let go of our core principles and we need to be more creative in how we express them. It can't just be politics as usual. That doesn't work with this gang.
              •  Understood (none)
                And I agree, for example I'm not willing to consider staging a protest of paid DC staffers. Luckily, we don't have to resort to that kind of thing, as we actually have a grassroots willing to go out and stand up to them.

                I'm not suggesting we mirror them in everything we do, please don't misunderstand. As far as "call to violence" goes... okay perhaps a bit alarmist, but as it's been pointed out (Orcinus has made a career out of it) when they start using these sorts of terms and tone, they may very well be inciting violence among their "grassroots". I don't think it's beyond the pale to suggest that Vance is in fact exhorting the mouth-breathers among his followers to engage in intimidation and perhaps even violence. I don't know.

                What I do know is that, at least for now, I won't be putting any weight to the consideration, "would I appreciate it if they did this to me?" That implies that they consider whether or not they play by the rules, or whether or not what they're doing is fair. And I know for a fact that it doesn't ever enter into their considerations.

                In fact, I'd argue that trying to consider whether or not our response is fair to Republicans is politics as usual for us. Again, not saying that I'm willing to hire "plumbers" to break into their party headquarters or anything like that. But as far as spending a lot of time wondering whether or not a headline, a story, or an article may not be fair to them? Nah, not going to waste a lot of time on it.

                Your mileage, of course, may vary. Respect to your point. bow

        •  the 'threat' is implied here (4.00)
          "At some point people's patience just runs out."

          this is not 'we shall overcome', it's "We're not gonna take it!"

          "fuck your war... and your president."--Snake Plissken

          by binFranklin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:37:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  defend (none)
        the klan.

        "fuck your war... and your president."--Snake Plissken

        by binFranklin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 12:08:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  ok, i'm ashamed of myself. (none)
          sorry, i'm too angry to even remember what i'm trying to say or why. i sound stupid and i feel stupid.

          i wish i could remember what hope feels like.

          "fuck your war... and your president."--Snake Plissken

          by binFranklin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 12:51:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Doverspa is Coburn supporter (none)
        The comment that started all this self-doubt about calling the Republicans on thier veiled threat of violence was by Doverspa, who is a staunch supporter of Coburn.  Remember him?  You know, death to abortion providers, and lesbians are infesting the junior high schools in Oklahoma.

        And you guys are giving him mojo?

         

        •  In case it matters (none)
          Yes, I supported Dr. Coburn's candidacy because of his stances against pork politics in the House.  I expect he will be a thorn in the side of Republican leadership in the Senate just as he was in the House and hopefully he'll be able to slow spending.  I also support a lot of liberal causes including gay rights.  I am pro-life and believe Oklahoma should have control over its own abortion laws.  I have not hidden my views on this site and you can look at my past comments to see that.  I am no troll, I am a Republican.  I hope you recongize the difference.

          I do not know how any of this affects my assertion that the quote above is not a call to violence.  I further assert that most of you would go balistic if  a similar quote by a Democrat was asserted to mean there was going to be blood in the streets.  But one truism in politics is that both sides are consistent about being inconsistent (or better: everyone is a hypocrite).

    •  aoeu (none)
      The large difference, should you choose to recognize it, is that he is a member of the Republican Party.

      no haikus now,
      join your local democratic party.
      There are fights in 2005 coming up.

      by TealVeal on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:24:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  OH Great. (none)
      We have wingnut supporter of the man who will embarrass Oklahoma for the next 6 years, Tom Coburn, claiming that the 'Phants have nothing evil intended.

      That has as much credibility as Roy Cohn claiming that he was straight.

      The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

      by msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 01:31:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Since when has reality intruded on GOP media spin? (none)
      I don't read it as a real call to violence, but that is hardly the point. It is trying to stake out and frame media perceptions that the full transparent recount is "stealing the election" and that he as the GOP face for WA is somehow the reasonable person holding back righteous anger at Democrats "stealing" the election.

      It is media targeted hyperbole writ large, and standard GOP.

      If the roles were reversed, he would be screaming that the media frame it as Democrats being dissidents.. oh wait, they already are doing that.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

      by Lestatdelc on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 04:08:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  let's see (3.83)
    We legally ask for a hand recount. That upset them. We legally ask the Supreme Court to rule on consistancy. That upset them. King County finds an additional 561 votes.  That upset them.
    Now Vance calls it stealing. Typical.
    Let's see if the media understands the difference between outrageous claims of theft and a legally mandated process.  Bets anyone?

    "Reform is the hallmark of a strong Democratic Party." Howard Dean

    by Lahdee on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:44:23 AM PST

  •  Decaf (4.00)
    I hit the rec button, but I think its pretty clear that Dems in Washington state long ago stepped away from the decaf. AFter all, they came up with the money for the recount, found the uncounted ballots, and did all of this in a state completed controlled by Dems that recently left the swing state category and became solid Dem.

    In other words, Washington Dems have been kicking ass.

    •  Oh, I don't know (4.00)
      The party leadership has done a great job. But the Democratic popular majority in this state has been silent as the night during the recount. The diarists' point seemed to be about how our grassroots would react to a Miami-style riot by the wingers.

      As I said in a comment above, I think Vance is, as usual, full of shit. But if such a thing were to happen, I suspect we could rally enough folks to counter it.

      I will say that most grassroots Dems seem to have been resigned to a Rossi win, and few held out hope for this hand recount. Now that it looks much brighter, at least for now, I think folks will reawaken.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:53:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  resignation? I dunno (3.66)
        I know a fair number of people who weren't/aren't thrilled w/ Gregoire. Most of them held their nose when they voted; at least one didn't vote for either candidate. Maybe it isn't resignation so much as neither candidate inspiring a whole lot of passion.

        KE04 took WA 53% to 46%... 7 points is a good difference, but I think it shows that the popular majority a.) isn't quite as big as we like to think it is and b.) has serious reservations about Gregoire, given that she wasn't able to capitalize upon that 7-point spread.

      •  Probably didn't (4.00)
        help that Gregoire practically threw in the towel and needed to be kicked in the butt by the state party chair to actually fight for it.  Doesn't breed much passion when the standard bearer for the battle wants to give up.

        bloggers: we watch the watchmen.

        by Ugluks Flea on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:14:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  WA dem (none)
      Yes, I think WA dems do need recognition for their work. The eastern side of the state is so conservative it really amazes me that it has become solid ground for the dems.
  •  They won't get away with it again-- (4.00)
    This time it will be too blatant.

    There is no recounting to stop--we're already ahead thanks to the newly discovered bundle.  It's much smarter to stop the vote when you're ahead.

    Seattle is still reeling from those wild black hoods that smashed the McDonald's window during the WTO protests.  They're not going to tolerate any more uppity people 'round there.

    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:51:31 AM PST

    •  You really need to look deeper (4.00)
      I've been seeing this "black hood" thing too often on this thread. Ask anyone here who actually lived in Seattle in '99 how things really went down.

      The window smashing thing was one very small thing in a much larger police riot, much more like Miami more recently. The vast majority of the protests were large, and loud, but peaceful and non-violent. It was the police that attacked the crowds, declared martial laws, tear-gassed whole neighborhoods, and generally incited the riots.

      I realize the real story didn't make it into national media outlets, but repeating this myth about black bloc anarchy riots over and over is fundamentally mistaken. That's not what happened.

      (Sorry, it's a personal pet peeve.)

  •  The Republicans Understand the Power of People (4.00)
    in the Streets to create momentum for their causes at strategic points. It isn't neccesarily a threat of violence, but part of the power of ANY street demonstration is precisely the danger that it will cross that line. The gutlessness of the Democrats on this score makes my head spin since the Dems can call up a much more talented and experienced bunch of street activists from a wide range of social movements. The Republican rent-a-rioters are frankly rank amateurs in creating chaos and if Florida is an indication it looks like they can only count on the ones that are on their payroll.

    "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories." -- Amilcar Cabral

    by Christopher Day on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:51:45 AM PST

    •  And the republicans are not afraid of the S-word.. (none)
      See? A republican just accused democrats of trying to steal the election just because they want a fair recount.

      Can't we take a page on their book? We have much more grounds for using the S-Word in the general election. Let's not coward away... Are the Washington repubs going to loose credibility because they say this? Not!

      •  S-word: (none)
        scumbags?

        "fuck your war... and your president."--Snake Plissken

        by binFranklin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:37:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Democrats are wimps (4.00)
        That's the overwhelming theme running through Kos.  There are people excusing the wimpiness, people trying to understand the wimpiness, people angry at the wimpiness, and people trying to change/eliminate the wimpiness.  

        But the 2004 Democratic party is a bunch of pansies and wimps.  That needs to change.  We need to take the fight at minimum to their level.  Imagine if Ohio had been reversed and Kerry had the winning margin and there were 4000 extra votes here, and some voter intimidation there and someone stepped forward and testified before congress that he was paid to write a program to hack the vote.  We would hear nothing but this from Fox, CNN, Rush, etc. and it would be topic A-number-one on every Sunday talk show.  Why?  Because the Republicans would have enough people screaming with the same unified message that you'd have to be deaf not to hear it and someone would run with the story which means everyone would have to do so to catch up.  

        The Democrats can't even decide whether it's better to scream or just sit there and take it, and if we were to scream, what do we scream.  It's like 1000 different voices saying different things, and even if you're trying to listen you can't make anything out.

        -Fred

        Organizing my thoughts about how to win from 2005 forward - http://fredsfred.blogspot.com

        by FredFred on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:57:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed (3.00)
      Republican protests are much better directed, in terms of media impact.

      Democratic protests too often become open venues for free association.  So you end up with Turtles and Anarchists who destroy any unifying theme and allow the media to dismiss the other 90%.  Democrats are uncomfortable with giving the cold shoulder to any minorty group.

      Regardless, I give the Democratic leaders credit for pushing this issue forward.  The rank and file is demoralized by the Bush victory.

    •  ya don't necessarily want the pros (3.50)
      I think one of the things that we saw in New York this last year was that protests are much more effective (as far as media narrative that emerges from it) when they're constituted of passionate amateurs. When the images on the news are of marching veterans, grandmothers, toddlers, people in your basic "normal" uniforms, etc, it tends to get covered as a peaceful protest.

      I thought one of the posts Steve G. put up before the RNC was brilliant, he encouraged those that wouldn't be otherwise inclined to do so to pick up a "normal" uniform (think J. Crew, Dockers, etc) so that they wouldn't be targetted by the NYPD, who anachronisticly tend to think of protestors as "East Village hippies". Scalia once said, in reference to a flag burning amendment, "Just between you and me, I don't like scruffy, sandal-wearing, bearded people who go around burning the United States flag, and if it were up to me, I would ban it." This is how out of touch the right (and in lots of cases, the cops, though they're typically pretty blue collar) are with protests these days. I think it's important that we apply a bit of media and political calculus to leverage that misperception and get the media to work for us instead of against us. Everyone (in the media) knows that dissidents don't wear Dockers, heh.

      Tangential I realize, but it's something I've thought lots about over the last few years.

  •  Laws are laws....lock them up (none)

    Let the Repubs take to the streets(legally)... but lock up those who take part in violence and vandalism.The laws apply to Republicans as well. There should be no tolerance for acts of violence ... should they be sore losers.

     They should feel lucky that they will not be allowed to say their piece.... two miles away in a barbed wire surrounded field.

    They are successful in framing the issue like that because they go unchallenged in the media... the argument should have been about all of the votes wrongfully rejected...If they were mostly Republican votes you can bet they would be allowed from the begining.

    They say dems are sore losers... but in WA state the Dem may have actually won... so how does one be a sore loser if they infact won?

    "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." -Martin Luther King, Jr. _______ "We will not be silent." -Howard Dean

    by jigsaw68 on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:54:00 AM PST

  •  Please Recommend this diary. (none)
    I posted this at something like 7:00am Seattle time, and I'd like to here some comments from folks in Washington State.

    The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

    by msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 08:55:59 AM PST

    •  Dude, it's early (4.00)
      We take a while to get the engines warmed up.

      My comments have been sprinkled over the thread. I think Vance is full of shit, but one can never discount angry wingers.

      If they did try to pull something, I suspect we could match them if not overwhelm them with our own numbers.

      The problem is that until today the recounts have been off the radar of the average Puget Sound Democrat. Most people sort of accepted a defeat when Rossi won the manual recount. Many posters here might disagree, but they'd be wrong. So there would be a bit of consciousness-raising that'd need to happen.

      Still, people here in Seattle wouldn't take kindly to a winger protest at the King County building downtown where the counts are taking place (I believe). I think that would rouse a lot of people to action.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:07:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Good diary (none)
      Really tasteless sig.  Think about changing it.  It offends a lot of people.

      I'm thinkin', I'm thinkin'

      by Armando on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:10:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  scary diary (4.00)
    I certainly support anyone's right to stage street protests, whether they're "right" or "left".

    Would you call the ANSWER rallies "incitement to violence" too?

  •  HAR (4.00)
    The Democrats need to STOP DRINKING DECAF.

    I love that.

    •  I think that it might make a good T-shirt. (4.00)
      Obvoiously, there would be some sort of mug logo.

      The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

      by msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:56:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Decaf? Here? (4.00)
    The Democrats in Washington State need to STOP DRINKING DECAF.

    Just where do you live, and just who the hell are you talking about?

    Is it the Democrats who had the best turnout in the state's history?

    Is it the Democrats who ran the best field operation in the state's history, and ID'ed tens of thousands of new Democratic voters, and got many of them to participate in a campaign for the first time ever?

    Is it the Democrats who carried the state for Kerry by seven percentage points, and for Patty Murray by damn near a landslide?

    Is it the Washington where we retook the state Senate and increased our majority in the House, and are preparing a bold agenda in environmental, educational, and transportation legislation?

    Is it the Democrats who are building strength on the ground at the precinct and District levels in all parts of the state?

    Is it the only state Democratic Party organization in the nation that has forced a Republican Secretary of State to follow state law and conduct a hand recount?

    Is it the only state Democratic Party organization in the nation that has taken this year's battle to the state Supreme Court to ensure that counties adhere to the same standards in canvassing?

    This is Washington, my brother, home of the WTO demonstrations, home of the Freeway-closing Vietnam protests, home of the Wobblies and the Everett Massacre.

    We don't sweat Chris Vance. He is an insect. We don't drink decaf. And we don't beat our wives. Go bust on Ohio, OK? We're ready to rumble here, and you might have figured that out by now.

    "Lash those conservatives and traitors with the pen of gall and wormwood -- let them feel -- no temporising!" -- Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1837

    by Ivan on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:00:44 AM PST

    •  Uh, dude (4.00)
      Many Dems here DO drink decaf. And most have paid hardly any attention to this hand recount - until today, when victory suddenly looked like a possibility.

      The party officials have done a good job so far. But the grassroots - to which msaroff was referring - have basically slept through the whole thing. All those voters you speak of have maybe seen some TV coverage of it, have cursed Shithead's name (Shithead being the GOP candidate for governor), but haven't done much of anything beyond that.

      Further, things have changed around here since the 1970 freeway protest and the 1916 Everett Massacre. A better comparison would be the Feb. 15, 2003 antiwar march in Seattle, at least 50,000 strong. But even that was a decaf march - it was silent, more like a vigil.

      My feeling is that most grassroots Dems simply aren't worked up about the recounts. But they would be if we win it and the wingers try something in the streets.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:12:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  N30 (4.00)
        Definitely not decaf.

        Don Rumsfeld: the new Marie Antoinette

        by lapin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:28:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  N30 (none)
          not really local people...

          i think those people came from oregon. hardly any "hippies" here at all, it's one of the reasons i moved here.
          {half joking, of course, but only half}

          I did join in though when the cops fucked up and made it a local issue.

          "fuck your war... and your president."--Snake Plissken

          by binFranklin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:22:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps you don't understand... (4.00)

        We've got enough people here in the grassroots to trounce any sort of protest.  

        Personally, in four clicks and two phone calls I can have this information to hundreds, and Ivan as well.

        And, some of these are not small people...they're gruff, they frustrated, and anything BUT decaf.

        Be proud. YOU'RE A LIBERAL.

        by changingamerica on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:28:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hey, Eugene (4.00)
        The party officials have done a good job so far. But the grassroots - to which msaroff was referring - have basically slept through the whole thing.

        I can only conclude that you and the good folks who rated your comment a 4 either:

        1. Live out in the tules:

        2. Don't know what the hell you are talking about, or

        3. Just run in different circles than I do.

        I'm guessing it is 3. I get around King and Pierce Counties pretty extensively, and all I hear is "what's new on the recount?"

        As for your statement that the voters "haven't done much of anything beyond that," what exactly would you have people do? The process is under way.

        I was in Olympia helping train volunteers to be observers for the recount. The room was so packed we had to open another room and split the training.

        In Seattle, six hundred people showed up to train as observers. This is in addition to the actual paid counters, mind you.

        An unavoidable conflict (my own District's Reorganization meeting) took me out of the recount, otherwise I'd be there on staff supervising volunteer observers.

        The poster downthread who called the state party and didn't get a call back had an atypical experience. People at the state party office have been swamped with volunteers, and chances are they were full up, which is why she wasn't called back.

        IMO, if you think the grass roots Dems are not involved in this recount, you are just running with the wrong crowd.

        "Lash those conservatives and traitors with the pen of gall and wormwood -- let them feel -- no temporising!" -- Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1837

        by Ivan on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:41:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bravo WA state! n/t (none)
        •  WA grass roots fully caffeinated (4.00)
          I was in Olympia helping train volunteers to be observers for the recount. The room was so packed we had to open another room and split the training.

          That has been my experience throughout the whole election process.  The training for the GOTV in Olympia was packed.  We had tons of volunteers for the GOTV day.  The rallies were all well attended.  The training was packed.  Everyone I talk to is asking how the recount is going, have they decided to count the 561 votes in King county, etc.  Everyone seems to be keeping updated on the situation on an almost realtime basis and we all have day jobs.  

          What is needed is someone to step up and take the lead, which is what the state chair should be doing.  If they want protestors, they could easily get them in Olympia, they just need to do a good job of getting the word out.

          The poster downthread who called the state party and didn't get a call back had an atypical experience. People at the state party office have been swamped with volunteers, and chances are they were full up, which is why she wasn't called back.

          That is what I was hoping had happened.  

    •  Once again (none)
      Washington is The Daddy of our country. :)

      Goodness remains in this world, and quite often it is Blue.

      by cskendrick on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 12:51:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  John Sweeney our wonderful Congressman (none)
        Also live in Sweeney's district.  Sent him an e-mail inquiring on his budget vote that cut Pell Grant funding.  Since I have a son in college this really affected our family.  Informed him that I would share his vote with other families in his district but surprise, surprise he didn't answer me.
        Was surprised that he voted against the gay marriage ammendant.  Sure his only reason for doing this is the desire to run against Hillary Clinton in 2006.  Which would be great as he would undoubtedly lose and we'd get rid of this bully.  Jerry Solomon, the guy he replaced was even worse.  He ranted and raved on the floor of congress that it was important for his wife to have an assault weapon to protect herself which didn't go over well with the people in the district.  He also got into a verbal altercation with Robert Kennedy, Jr about the right to allow people to have assault weapons.  Rather insensitive considering what happened to his father.  He had to step down because people in this heavily republican district said they won't vote for him for dog catcher.  But only because he voted against allocating money to it.
        •  FIxing America, one state at a time (none)
          Might as well start with Washington.

          Conservatives have made moderate Republicans an endangered species; I say we make them extinct.

          There's no reason for Republicans to hold positions of statewide authority with a Blue-leaning constituency.

          They can muster control of Congress and the White House using nothing but Red country going forward.

          I spent four years cajoling moderate Pubs, and at the end of the day, they joined in the catcalling and the demonization of Americans in order to play to the GOP in-crowd.

          Now they come around, letting us know that they're still our friends, but they've got an image to keep up.

          Eff that. They can go get kicked around by the 'beautiful people' until the latter get tired of it.

          Because we are shut of them, completely.

          Who's your daddy? Washington. :)

          by cskendrick on Wed Dec 15, 2004 at 05:29:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  John Sweeney was leading Brooks bros (4.00)
    My wonderful congressman, John Sweeney, may not have been paid, but I recall seeing video of him at the forefront, banging on the doors to stop the recount.

    Amazing that the Dems let them get away with the 2000 election.  I hope you all are learning that the repubs play ruthlessly, with no rules, and you MUST play the same way.  No more nice guy.

    New York - One of the last bastions of the Enlightenment

    by Maren on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:00:49 AM PST

  •  OK Washington State People... (none)
    time to hit the streets.  I'd come and join you if I possibly could.
  •  What It Tells Me (3.66)
    This just shows why the GOP wins...the day after the 561 ballots are added and the Republican Party Chairman is speaking out and calling for action.  It's been over a month since the presidential election and where is the Democratic leadership on the Ohio and Florida situations?  They're busy planning for '06 and '08.  <eyes rolling>  What's the point?  It doesn't matter what we do when voter suppression, fraud, etc., is ignored and cheerfully accepted.  JMO.

    Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

    by Barbara Morrill on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:18:14 AM PST

  •  Recommended (4.00)
    I hope no Washington staters take offense at this diary.  WA has represented itself at the forefront of the progressive movement and performed the role with steadiness and grace.

    The reason I recommended this: the Rethugs WILL resort to media manipulation and intimidation to the fullest extent of their powers.  No doubt the outcome looks good for Dems and yes, this is a far cry from the scene in Miami.  Could we lose a war of popular perception?  Perhaps.

    I think it's a safe assumption (given Rethug past behavior) to say Vance intends to do what he can to disrupt the recount process and undermine its crediblity.  To say he's threatening violence is probably inferring too much, but intimidation is clearly the name of the game he wants to play.

    Hopefully these would-be thugs will more than meet their match if they decide to break out the ol' Brooks Bros Riot routine again.  Responding with an overwhelming non-violent protest would be good fun too.

  •  Decaf? (none)
    Have you been to WA state?  It is the land of three espresso stands on every corner.  I would guess that few of them are making their profits off of selling decaf.  
  •  Decaf in Washington State (3.75)
    Isn't that against the law there?

    We the undersigned urge you to support Federal funding for research using human pluripotent stem cells. -80 Nobel Laureates to Pres. Bush

    by easong on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:20:49 AM PST

  •  I welcome Repugs challenging the election (4.00)
    Go to the streets GOPpies!

    Then maybe we dems will find our courage to do the same!

    Proud to be a Liberal!.. only the GOP could think something derived from Liberty is bad

    by lawnorder on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:25:06 AM PST

    •  No, we won't. (4.00)
      As soon as the GOP hits the streets, that's when the Dems will hightail it out of there with tails between their legs.

      Please, please, don't get too optimistic.

      We are the ones who should be screaming the Repugs tried to steal the election, and we caught them red-handed. Instead, they'll be the ones accusing us. We should have began the hardball already, instead we wait for them to make the first move.

      The repugs do not care what happens or what is destroyed as long as they win. We ask: Is it worth the cost?  Then give up.

      Like pygmies on the battlefield of history, we {Dems} cower like whipped dogs in the face of political pressure. . . Sen. Robert Byrd 12/08/04

      by Lords on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 12:49:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  You missed the best part!!!! (4.00)
    The King County error came to light Sunday when Larry Phillips, chairman of the Metropolitan King County Council, was looking over a list of voters from his neighborhood whose ballots had been disqualified.

    Phillips spotted his own name on the list, prompting an investigation by King County elections workers that turned up 561 improperly disqualified ballots.

    •  This was a gift from the gods (none)
      I voted absentee (for Gregoire, natch). Did they count my vote? Was I one of the 561? How can I tell? They aren't going to pay a lot of attention to Mr. Random OMIR Off The Street, but I think they're going to pay attention to the county council chairman says there could be a problem.

      Republicanism (n). The ultimate triumph of style over substance.

      by Our Man In Redmond on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:17:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  King County Voters can check for their name (none)
        HERE and see if there name is on the list of absentee voters whose ballot was rejected. The Seattle P-I published the list. Thanks, P-I!

        But I don't understand why the county election officials don't just publish the list on the internet? Why's it a third party?

        •  Oh yeah. I saw that list (none)
          My name isn't on it. Does this list contain the 561 ballots that need to be checked against the registration cards, though? I guess it must; looks like Larry Phillips' name is in the list.

          Republicanism (n). The ultimate triumph of style over substance.

          by Our Man In Redmond on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:38:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  publication of voters' names protects their votes (none)
      If there is an effort to suppress these votes, the fact that the identities of the voters have been revealed could have an enormous effect on how this plays out in the press. Let anyone who wants to disenfranchise these voters face them in a public forum.
  •  Time to Hit the Streets in Seattle (none)
    Time for Seattle to wake up and take action.  This kind of ATTENTION is JUST WHAT WE NEED to open the gates to Ohio and Florida.. Make as much noise as possible.  MSM will have to start reporting...  These bastards are going to screw up somewhere along the way in their big lie..just watch.
  •  Vance Is Full of Hot Air (4.00)
    He is under attack by a faction of his own party called the Reagan Wing and this call to action may be a publicity stunt designed to buy some good will from members of his own party.  This is what the Reagan Wing thinks of Chris Vance:

    Dear Chris,

    As you know, the very first Washington State Republican Party Chairmanship debate will, indeed, take place this evening.

    As you are also aware, the Reagan Wing is hosting it, and the following debates across the state, because we believe that the grassroots Republicans are conservative and, if given the knowledge that they have the power, through the election of State Committee members, will give themselves a conservative State Chair; a Chair who believes in the Constitution and not its erosion by Judges, a Chair who believes in property rights not the Growth Management Act, a Chair who believes in the Republican Platform and will not obstruct the Platorm Committee. We think they want a Chair who believes in open and fair campaigns and will not openly lie to the Republican Party and the press to control the primary. Most of all, they want a Chair that will not continue to lead us to greater and greater electoral defeats.

    As soon as we sent out invitations to debate the issues to all known possible candidates, the conservatives, universally, accepted. The rumored candidates of the liberal elites all declined and began to recite the mantra you are now chanting. We believe the real reason is obvious. Grassroots Republicans are conservative, the elites are not. They only hope to insinuate themselves into the Chairmanship the way they have insinuated themselves into Dino Rossi's transition team. We're sure he will see through it.

    Governor Rossi has never expressed any desire or intention to "appoint" a State Party Chair nor is he engaged in that process. He has made this clear directly to some of our candidates. This is a fabrication by you and others of the liberal elite.

    Dino Rossi, whose candidacy you initially obstructed, was elected Governor by the sweat of the grassroots conservatives you hope to silence. Many TRW members spent hundreds if not thousand of hours helping Dino Rossi get elected. Your implication that a debate the night before the recount begins will somehow hinder our efforts in the recount is demagoguery at its worst. At the debate tonight, we will encourage all members to sign up to monitor the recount which is being coordinated through the Rossi campaign.

    We will not allow the conservatives to be silenced. We will not allow Dino Rossi's name to be misused and we will not cease to stand up for the principles upon which our nation was founded.

    You ain't seen nothin' yet.

    Doug Parris

    They don't like Chris Vance much.

    Here's a pic from Olympia yesterday:


    Dino Rossi supporters and Recount/Gregoire supporters gather on the steps of the state Supreme Court in Olympia yesterday before the court heard arguments on the Democrats' lawsuit regarding the recount.

    Don Rumsfeld: the new Marie Antoinette

    by lapin on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 09:27:23 AM PST

  •  Where's our Rent it Protesters Let's go Folks (none)
    West coasters it's time to hit the streets and get off of our blogging buts. Washington is Blue territory don't let them get away with it.
  •  Angry ticketholders (none)
    protest cancellation of McDonald's holiday cruise.
  •  The rent-a-riot in Miami (none)
    won't work again. It cost an average of $1000 per head, and got covered extensively by CNN. Sort of like a black tie campaign event.

    I have seen one street protest by Republicans in my entire life. It was in San Francsico in November of 2000. There were about 80 of them and they were the saddest, most pathetic, flabbiest whitest, and least intimidating gathering of people in this city's history. They huddled together for dear life like rabbits while people laughed at them on the sidewalk.

    Nothing to worry about here.

  •  hey, msaroff, where'd you get the photo? (none)
    The one with the numbers on the ("local") protestors.  I followed your link to that article, which was very nice, btw, but no photo there.  I'd love to download it, with the key to the identities of those professional Beltway republicans.

    thanks.

  •  Is the situation so bad that (none)
    we can't get progressives on the streets anymore?  Everone said if the election was stolen we would be in the streets.  yeah, we have been there --in the 10's.  It is pathetic.

    I am going to DC on Inauguration Day.  

    Where are those bikers in WA when we need them?

    I got my best comment ratings ever on my Thanksgiving recipe post!

    by Percheronwoman on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:02:13 AM PST

  •  Scary people? That's silly (4.00)

    10 grannies in "COUNT THE VOTE" t-shirts and a few people with video cameras would do the job far better.

    Especially if one lively 80-something grannie called a local TV news producer and said "Sonnie/girlie, I'm 88 years old and I'm standing out in front of the courthouse, in the rain, to make sure my vote gets counted. What's your excuse for not being here?"

    •  Absolutely - recipe for media candy: (4.00)
      Add a Veteran in a wheelchair and a couple of nice librarian/schoolteacher types.  

      Mix with a couple of fresh-faced 19 year old first time voters would be good too.  

      Then throw in a couple of cute little kids in shirts that say "Please count my mommy's vote".  Extra points for kittens or puppies.

      Luckily, Olympia is a hardcore liberal stronghold.  We can count on having our people on the statehouse steps whenever there's a need.

      Jon Stewart for President! C'mon, why not?

      by zarza tenaz on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:21:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'll call my grandma (4.00)
      (see sig for more info on her) and I'm sure she'll be glad to take care of it.

      She probably already has a "Count My Vote" shirt.

    •  i'll take ten grannies (2.50)
      and a van full of teamsters with bike chains and tire irons. I like that idea a lot, and I'm not even gay.

      some shit eating republican weenie pretend tough guy getting his fucking fat face smashed by somebody who'd just melt right back into the bottom tax bracket they love to shit on...that will be a lesson they won't soon forget.

      but, you know, we should, of course, all get along...

      Why are we Christians constantly asked to look up to people Jesus would never want to have a beer with?

      by Lud on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 12:41:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do know any Scandinavian Grandmothers? (4.00)
      They wouldn't be outside protesting.  They'd wreck the place.

      A friends (Norwegian) grandmother turned 100 during Ronnie's first term.  The normal practice is for the President to call and congratulate them.  Her response was, "I didn't live to be 100 in order to have to talk to that son-of-a-bitch!"

      During the Panic of 1902 my Swedish grandfolks lost their farm due to failure to make the bank payment.  As the mortgage was on the land and the papers were served on Friday when the bank people came on Monday to take possession they were looking at bare ground.  Over the weekend the men moved all buildings while the women removed the fencing, fence posts, and plowed that years crop under!

      When I was a boy the same grandmother, on St. Lucia's Day, would come in, bearing coffee and St. Lucia cookies to wake me.  (Doesn't everybody celebrate St. Lucia's Day?)  If I didn't awake fast enough to suit her she would lean her head so hot wax from the candles would drop on my face.

      NEVER mess with someone wearing rosemal'ed eyeglasses.

  •  Where's Paul Berendt in all of this? (none)
    I notice Chris Vance's pawmarks all over this. He gets quoted every time a story surfaces on the recount. Where's Paul Berendt? Why isn't he up there on a soapbox shouting to count all the votes at the top of his lungs?

    Does Vance really have that much better access to the media that he gets quoted every time something political happens in this state? Or does Berendt just not speak out enough?

    I'm starting to wonder if we don't need some reform democrats out here in one of the bluest areas of the country.

    Republicanism (n). The ultimate triumph of style over substance.

    by Our Man In Redmond on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 10:23:46 AM PST

    •  Where's Berendt? WTF?? (3.66)
      Where's Paul Berendt? Why isn't he up there on a soapbox shouting to count all the votes at the top of his lungs?

      You must be kidding, right? If not for Berendt, there wouldn't even BE a hand recount, much less the money to conduct it.

      Don't forget, either, that Berendt was an early Dean supporter. Let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good here.

      "Lash those conservatives and traitors with the pen of gall and wormwood -- let them feel -- no temporising!" -- Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1837

      by Ivan on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:15:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're right, of course (none)
        I didn't mean to diminish his achievements. I'm just frustrated because every time a story comes up that has anything remotely to do with politics, there's a quote or five or six from Vance, and very little from Berendt.

        Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have someone who's all action and no talk than the other way around. I guess I'm just frustrated because Vance seems to be able to hog the spotlight.

        Republicanism (n). The ultimate triumph of style over substance.

        by Our Man In Redmond on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:32:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is because they have stones... (none)
    If Democrats did, we would be doing the same thing.

    Where is this country going, and why are we in this handbasket?

  •  I'm mad as hell...check out what ABC is reporting (none)
    and let's take to the "internets", streets and whatever else to ask why no coverage of OHIO?  The congress is involved for goodness sake's.  This totally pisses me off and makes it very clear that the MSM is owned lock stock and barrel by the rightwingnuts.
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=328111
  •  is this rent-a-brownshirt??? (none)

    Proud to be a Liberal!.. only the GOP could think something derived from Liberty is bad

    by lawnorder on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:01:12 AM PST

  •  The cry for right wing outrage started yesterday. (none)
    The primal scream for righteous indignation and outrage came yesterday. It is the best concrete sign that the recount movement is scaring them. At long last.

    The Ohio Recount Outrage

    (skip)

    However, most recounts are honest. In most states recounts are required when the result separates the major candidates by less than one percent of the vote. Recounts when the vote separating the major candidates is more than 200 almost never change the results. But that is not always the case. Senator Slade Gorton (R-WA) was thought to have won his re-election bid in 2000 but the recount reversed the results and today Senator Maria Cantwell (D-WA) has his seat.

    In short, ordinarily recounts are a regular process to insure that close elections are properly counted. That is why Ohio is such an outrage. That recount is only for the purpose of making trouble. There ought to be a law outlawing that kind of recount.

    link to right win outrage

    Vote Fraud As Fundraiser: Cobb and the Ohio Recount

    (skip)

    So the question must now be raised: Where is all this extra cash going? And how much is Cobb pocketing himself? How about the rest of his staff? The Cobb camp won't comment.

    To add more spice to the charade, Kaitlin Sopoci-Belknap, the bookkeeper of the Cobb operation, just happens to be Cobb's girlfriend. And as Cobb's fancy new website explains, "Monies raised as part of the initial $150,000 have paid for re-hiring staff," among other things. Sopoci-Belknap, not surprisingly, has been rehired along with numerous other friends of Cobb including his "Media Director" Blair Bobier Esq.

    Green Party members and others should be outraged at the fiasco. Not only should they be questioning the motives behind Cobb's Ohio recount, but they should also demand financial records to account for all the money that has rolled into the Cobb quarters since the election ended. For the odor of a con-game in Ohio is fast thickening.

    more right win outrage here

  •  What does WA Court decision do... (none)
    So are the King County "found" votes legal under today's WA Supreme Court ruling?

    Are they too late?  Are they legal because they were found by the County (not by independent re-canvas) following a formal complaint about a specific ballot rejection?

    Washington State wants to know, and so do we!

    •  According to the Seattle Post Article (none)
      The 561 ballots are admissable.

      The decision does not effect them.

      The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

      by msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:15:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  But where? (none)
    Keep in mind that the populated part of Washington (King and Thurston counties) is heavily Democratic. So ... they're going to riot in Yakima or Walla Walla? Yeah, that'll really shake 'em up in Seattle or Olympia! There's a major mountain range between the idiots and the civilized in Washington State. So let the idiots raise their hell and live in it, if they so wish.
  •  Msaroff (none)
    Yesterday, a Diary titled," Note to weak kneed libs: Lying is fair in cognitive warfare," http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/13/212435/61 was posted, which recommended the use of Lying and Fear as tactics to take back our Government.  Thankfully, most who posted there were incredulous and opposed.  Only two people recommended the Diary, one of them was you.

    I see you're putting the fear tactic to good use this morning.  I'm sure it will play well with all those potential first time visiters to the site due to the Washington Post article, to see your unsupportable shout of "FIRE."  

    What an excellent day for an Exorcism...

    by DianeL on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:39:43 AM PST

    •  See my response up above. (none)
      Learn to understand Republispeak.

      This was a specific incitement to disorder.

      While it is not, nor should it be, legally actionable, it requires that the folks on the ground be prepared for an "astroturf riot".

      The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

      by msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:48:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Response (4.00)
        DianeL is correct.  I have read your responses above and they don't prove anything.  What this guy said is no different than statements made by interests groups of all shapes and sizes (including many on the left).  How else do you call for a public protest?

        You are letting your hatred of Republicans cloud your judgment.

        When I read your diary title, I thought I was in for an interesting read.  Not misrepresentation.

      •  Saw your response (none)
        Including the boldfacing of "threatening violence," and "really scary people".

        You're using fear as a tatic, and right after seemingly recommending Lies and Fear on another Diary.

        Lastly, don't patronize me, you don't know anything about me other than comments I've made.  I've been around long enough to understand the tactics of the scum in DC, and have no respect for anyone who suggests usurping those tactics.

        What an excellent day for an Exorcism...

        by DianeL on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 12:08:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  OOPS!!! (none)
      Forgot to add this on my last comment.

      FWIW, I recommended the diary, because the issues, which is not black and white, is one that should be discussed.

      How far do you go to win an election.

      The Republicans call us fear mongers when we tell the truth, that they want to destroy Social Security and hand the money to their Wall Street friends.

      There are plenty of accusations that are truthful under the Caesar wife test.

      Even if one is an advocate for the suicidally complete truth, the discussion raises valuable questions.

      The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

      by msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 11:52:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  We need to welcome him to the club. (none)
    "Republicans are now "absolutely convinced that King County is trying to steal this election," said Republican Party Chairman Chris Vance."

    Are they being whiners?

  •  latecomer (none)
    to the discussion, didn't read everything...

    imho, the 2000 riots were meaningless. it was dirty from the top down, not the bottom up:

    • police used to harass minority voters
    • supreme court used to overturn state sovereignity
    • jeb bush, katherine harris, kathy hood consortium of evil
    • refusal of even 1 senator to support the house dems
  •  This is why. . . (none)
    I say that we should be careful about getting our hopes up about recounts in Ohio and all that. It's a waste of time, money and energy.  It's best to leave the damn thing alone as if we do find that Kerry really won, all it will do is expose us (Democrats) for the spineless and cowardly wimps that we really are for the entire world to see, as there won't be a damned thing we'd be able to do about it.

    If this is what the Repugs are prepared to do in Washington state, does anyone here believe that the Democrats could & would stand up to them if we are taking back Washington DC.?

    Kerry would be the first to talk about giving up for the good of the country.

    Like pygmies on the battlefield of history, we {Dems} cower like whipped dogs in the face of political pressure. . . Sen. Robert Byrd 12/08/04

    by Lords on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 12:34:30 PM PST

  •  I'm in (none)
    I'll be on call.  Tell me when and where, and I'll be there.

    I stood on a rainy street corner with 8 others outside a Rossi rally in Tacoma last week, and I'll do it again in a second.

  •  It's Not Gonna Happen (none)
    Except a few-dozen-man rent-a-riot for some cameras. Signs all commercially printed in Dan Rather National Guard Font.

    The worst I've seen from the religious right suggests conventional protest marching.

    What I would fear--not so much in WA as in OH where I used to live, or other parts of the W and S--is the terrorist right.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 02:26:37 PM PST

  •  won't work, will it? (none)
    Dems aren't going to be intimidated, are they?
  •  list of the 500 plus names that needs to be counte (none)
  •  msaroff (4.00)
    how is this diary itself not a call to violence?

    I did not read the call to violence you mention.  It was agitation, a call to fight, but you seemed to have moved it a further notch, and warned, the attack is imminent, "attack first!"

    what have you to say?

    •  Fortunately, we're all safely ensconced (none)
      in our respective homes, behind our computers, BUT this kind of talk in real life could lead to real violence.  Tempers are flared, false information is proferred, and real people get hurt.

      Fortunately, we're all safely ensconced......

    •  It's not a call to violence. (none)
      It is a warning that violence is likely to be visited upon the electoral process, and absent preparation, it will succeed.

      Guess what, if the collge Republican types show up screaming, and see a crowd on the other side, full of people who look like they don't take crap from anyone, they'll slink back home with their tail between their legs.

      If they see 5 guys carrying signs who look like members of the WimpU debate team, they will terrorize them, and then go on to terrorizing the vote counters.

      I'm not looking for violence.  I'm hoping for a standoff where the legal business of counting the votes in King County goes smoothly.

      The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

      by msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 07:40:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The quote you give there (4.00)
    says nothing about violence.

    They have a right to outrage and protest everybit as much as we do. The fact that they'e wrong and we're right :) does not infringe upon their right to protest what they perceive as injustice.

    Now understand that John Sweeney (R-NY 20th) is the congressman for my district and he gave the order to "Shut it down" in Palm Beach.

    They get to protest all they want as long as the votes are actually being counted. If they get violent then charges should filed... as they should have been in Palm Beach.

    "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

    by Andrew C White on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 05:26:25 PM PST

  •  Video on John Sweeney??? (none)
    I remember seeing him in a video pounding on the doors, screaming, yelling...any chance anyone knows where that video is?? I would love to be able to use that against him.

    New York - One of the last bastions of the Enlightenment

    by Maren on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 06:05:49 PM PST

    •  His memory is faulty. (none)
      He gave the order to start the assault via cell phone from either DC or his Home district.

      They rushed in after he said, "Shut it down"

      The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

      by msaroff on Tue Dec 14, 2004 at 07:46:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent! (none)
    Yes O yes!  Bring on the tatooed bikers!  The burley teamsters!  Longshoremen with steel-toed boots.

    Wimps and wonks, please stay in the back room out of the way.

    •  Is this sarcasm, serious, or something in between? (none)
      I can't tell.

      The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

      by msaroff on Wed Dec 15, 2004 at 05:37:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Seriously... (none)
        msaroff--

        I think you've got the right idea. Politics is a blood sport and to our shame, Democrats are doing all the bleeding.

        It makes me crazy to see our side mumble and stammer when they face off with a cock-sure Republican.  Mark Shields is the perfect example. I love the guy, he's as decent as they come, but his dithering is no match for the confidence and clarity that Republicans get with David Brooks.  

        So yes, bring on the strong Democratic men and women of Seattle and let them hold the line. Same deal in Ohio. And keep the wimps and wonks away from the cameras and microphones.  

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