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I have been thinking a lot about what it means to be an opposition party.  A big part of it is theater.  It's easy to say what would be different under a Democratic establishment. It's hard to get the television to cover it.  That's why you need media stunts.

I have a proposal for a stunt, in which the Blue States reform their districting laws, and then proclaim "okay, we reformed, now it's the Republicans turn."  I know what you're thinking: we can't unilaterally disarm! That's what you're supposed to think - that's part of the trick. But in this scheme, we get all the political benefits of unilateral reform, and none of the electoral cost.

Here's how it works...

The first step is to announce to the media that on such-and-such day, a piece of surprise legislation will be passed in five solidly-blue states.  We make sure that there's a big party with free booze and free airplane tickets for journalists, but we don't tell them the nature of the legislation.

When the day arrives, they learn that this is the bill: "This state shall use such-and-such nonbiased computer program for districting of congressional seats and senate seats.  No human intervention or adjustment of parameters is allowed." But it also has this little catch: "This law shall go into effect when all 50 states have passed this exact law." That little catch is the magic trick.  It's not unilateral disarmament - the law has no effect until Texas passes it too.

We proclaim boldly that this bill will be the end of gerrymandering.  Then, we announce that we plan on marching this bill across the blue states, one at a time. We announce in advance that one blue state will pass the law every Monday, at 5PM central time.  We do not reveal in advance which state it will be, but we give hints, to encourage the Sunday talk-shows to spend time speculating.

We follow through.  Every week, another Blue state passes the bill.  This generates a weekly newspaper article about Democrat-driven election reform.  Periodically, we "spice up" the stories by letting the bill get delayed by Republicans, and then we tell how we overcame them.

This goes on for two months or so.  Eventually, we run out of blue states over which we have absolute control.  Next, it's time to go after the purple states.  Now the real fun begins.

Remember: the Republicans can't let this bill pass in all 50 states.  If they do, we get a double win: clean districting, and we get control of Congress.  They won't let this happen.  So the question is, will they fight it early, or late?

If the Republicans fight it early, it will cost them dearly.  If the law passes in all the blue states, but in none of the red states, then the meaning will be clear as day: liberals support clean elections, conservatives don't.  We can use this to bludgeon them forever.

But if they give in to political pressure, and let the law pass in some of the red and purple states, then they'll pay an even higher political price.  Imagine the media running stories like "48 states support clean elections, with only Republicans in Alabama and Texas blocking the bill."  It would make them look awful.  I doubt they'll let this happen, but you never know.

And who knows? Maybe the unthinkable will happen: maybe someday they'll really sign on for clean elections. In which case, we all win.

UPDATE: many people are pointing out flaws in computerized districting. You're missing an important point - this doesn't *have* to be a perfect bill, because it will never activate. This is theater. It's like the federal marriage amendment - the Republicans didn't design it to be perfect, they didn't have to. They didn't even really want it to pass. The goal here is not to fix districting law. The goal is to make it obvious that its the Republicans who are preventing reforms to districting law.

Other people are pointing out that "democrats will never sign on to this, because they don't want their districts abolished." Again, you're missing the point - this bill is never going to activate. They're not going to lose their districts. It's pure theater.

Originally posted to joshyelon on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 12:38 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  We need more than theatre (none)
      We need a pro-active response to Schwarzenegger's plan to make California's redistricting non-partisan:

      http://www.fairdistricts.com/index.asp

      I'm not against your strategy -- but I'd suggest that it would actually be easier and more understandable to propose a constitutional amendment to end gerrymandering.  The effort to start the ball rolling on a constitutional amendment can start in the state legislatures -- so the details might look very much the same.  

      Don't get bogged down in details (committees, programs, precinct boundaries, etc.).  Constitutional amendments shouldn't be filled with such details.  It should set general guidelines to take politicians out of the decision making process, restrict the possible shape of districts, and make it unconstitutional to consider party interests or party identity during the redistricting process.  

  •  I think it is beautiful n/t (none)

    so i said,"Washington's groovy(laughs). That's what i said. And it is... for Romans"

    by k9disc on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 12:35:37 AM PST

    •  Better idea. (none)
      Get anti-Gerrymandering legislation passed by initiative petition in states that are really fscked up.

      Ohio and Florida have initiative-petition, and they are really fscked up by Gerrymandering.

      Have it apply at the state and local level too.

      The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries, satin sheets, a magnum of champ

      by msaroff on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 09:18:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Petitions... (none)
        should wait until all the blue state legislatures have passed it on their own. A petition would dilute some of the p.r. value for Dems. Use petitions as a last resort in the red states that allow petitions/initiatives/referenda.

        BTW, joshyelon, this is a brilliant idea!

        •  I wish this would work (none)
          The problem is that most gerrymandering is about incumbent protection as much as its about partisanship.  How do you convince dems to act as good citizens, or even as decent, crafty dems coopting good civics ideas for the party's benefit, rather than simply acting as self-interested politicians?

          Here in Illinois, the congressional map was passed after bipartisan agreement on saving most incumbents.  Among other things, the district drawn for Cong. Gutierrez looks like a weight-lifting barbell that bent under the strain -- there are two large bulbous sections on either side, and then a long, thin strip that circles around to join them.  In some places, this strip is as wide as a railroad track.  In others, it's a single city block.

          Gutierrez, of course, is a Democrat.  Here's a link to his map.  Take a look.  It's hilarious to see it.

          The county commissioner map includes a district that I'd describe as a man looking angrily up at a cloud of vaport escaping through his nostrils.  Mayor Daley's brother lives in the small vapor cloud that is tenuously connected to the rest of the district -- his neighborhood is in the midst of a sea of Latinos that might not elect him, so they carefully carved him into a district further west.

          Mayor Daley's brother, of course, is a Democrat.  Here's a link to his map.

          •  incumbent protection (none)
            I totally understand your point, BUT...

            But it also has this little catch: "This law shall go into effect when all 50 states have passed this exact law." That little catch is the magic trick.

            Many Dem incumbents might vote for it because they will think it's a safe bet it will never pass in all 50 states. Plus, anyone who votes against it will look like a dick.

            •  oh, I see (none)
              they'll look like dicks if they vote against this, but they don't look like dicks when they vote for the crappy redistricting maps that they vote for???  

              If voters don't get angry enough about the maps themselves to hold people accountable, they're certainly not going to get angry enough to hold anyone accountable for not voting for this.

              This would never even reach the floor of the legislature in Illinois, unfortunately.  It would just rot in whatever committee the Speaker of the House consigned it to.

              •  Reform issue (none)
                The crappy maps can always be justified by "it's what everyone does".  The other party would do it just as viciously, so why shouldn't we?

                Fixing the system makes it more of a reform issue instead of a strictly partisan one.

                "Think! It ain't illegal yet." -- George Clinton

                by GreenCA on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 01:43:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  I agree about the PR thing (none)
          and if we don't have the PR we won't be able to go after Texas which doesn't have citizen initiatives.  Pro-Fair Elections has to come from us.

          "What is Conservatism and What is Wrong With It?" http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html

          by sdlohrenz on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 10:12:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Machiavellian (4.00)
    I like it aah lot.

    You must be the change you wish to see in the world- Mahatma Gandhi

    by limaike on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 12:46:44 AM PST

  •  Quite (none)
    . . . Rovian of you.
    Nice!
  •  Excellent idea (4.00)
    I think this is an excellent idea.  I think the shortcoming is the presumption of control and coordination.  I am not sure that the DNC could actually coordinate this, and reliably marshall their legislative troops in even the blue states.  Imagine what would happen if this trojan horse legislation failed to pass in, say, Massachusetts.  I have to tell you, districting in Massachusetts is no easy matter.  Even assuming that Democrats will win every single district, the Democrats will fight amongst themselves about districting.  Redistricting bears the potential of making a candidate ineligible or merging "his" disctrict into neighboring districts.  Even within the same party, horse-trading is par for the course.
    •  DNC coordination (none)
      the mother of all oxymorons.

      No, data is not the plural of anecdote

      by MarkInSanFran on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 03:06:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hear Hear (none)
      I agree 100%. I'm thinking about the map of council districts here in Philadelphia, which is overwhelmingly Democratic. I've never seen anything so gerrymandered in my life.

      I think the problem is that we confuse progressives with Democrats. I would say that at least a clear majority of elected Democrats are not "progressive." Maybe they were progressive when they were elected, but a few years in the system will cure most people of that disease.

    •  the RNC coordinates like this... (4.00)
      and we don't. Which is why we keep losing what we most want to win!

      There should be coordinated teams of Democrats in every state and county, regularly hitting the Pres.'
      reputation with media stunts, laws, press conferences. Instead, the DNC tells state-level democrats they're on their own, and if they're on their own, who's going to stick their neck out?

      And why should Southern and Midwestern voters feel the DNC gives a rat's ass about them, if the DNC won't even take care of their own party members at the state level?

      •  the Gingrich revolution (none)
        won the House on a platform of reform. At the very least, all Dem non-incumbents in 2006 should be promising to support redistricting reform. Even if it doesn't pass, it will help them get elected. Many Dems already in office will be looking out for #1 and trying to preserve their own district. But they might vote for it anyway, thinking it will never pass in all 50 states.
      •  You know... (none)
        There is something odd I was thinking about.

        In a lot of cases, Republicans are/were businessmen in their other incarnations. They have connections with business, or own businesses. They have deep connections with the private sector. On the other hand, a large contingent of Democrats come from the legal profession.

        When a Republican is called on to stick his neck out, even if his head gets chopped off, he's still likely looking at a cushy consultant job in the private sector, pretty much set for life.

        When a Democrat faces the axe, he gets...what, free legal counsel?

        I'm not saying what the Republicans do is right. But we have to understand that we are up against something a lot bigger, a self-sustained political eco-system that has the ability to cut off it's own limbs and grow them back. They have money, connections, blind loyalty, and to be honest, their promises of jobs 'on the outside' aren't empty promises. This is the Frankenstein monster we have to deal with, and we have to attack it from all angles. We have the traction on popular support, but they've got double-walled castles and boiling oil and the political form of necromancy, slaughtering their soldiers in the public arena and resurrecting them in the private sector. It's a hard army to fight against.

    •  Yup... (none)
      Great idea!

      How're we going to get the blue states to go along?

      <I have been thinking a lot about what it means to be an opposition party.  A big part of it is theater.>

      Where's Abby Hoffman when we need him?

    •  Indeed (none)
      It is an exceptional idea, which is why it will never be attempted by the current entrenched establishment.

      Iowa and New Hampshire; YOU'RE FIRED!

      by AmericaIsBetterThanBush on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 12:00:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry but this falls under the rubric of (none)
    if we get everyone to ... then we can ....

    Sure it's an interesting idea, but the problem is how do we get there from here. And if we could get there from here, why not do this other ... instead, which is better and takes the same effort or needs the same number of "us" to do the same "thing" at the same time (more or less).

  •  don't you think this is a little too clever? (4.00)
    i mean, do you really expect the democratic party to embrace this? this the sort of thing that might make them, you know, win sometimes.

    to dispel any previous confusion arising from the sig before this,
    i'd like to reaffirm that this account is indeed dedicated to justice.

    by Tacoma Narrows on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 04:35:34 AM PST

  •  Too much common sense (none)
    that's why it will never happen. Some things like this, and Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) just make too much goddamned sense for our government.

    This kind of plays out like Nuclear Disarmamnet. It's a great idea which could probably be applied to a lot of things.

    Too bad they aren't that creative/will never listen.

    •  Too Much Sense to Whom (4.00)
      The devil's in the details here.

      Do you really expect blue state dem party leadership to willingly give up their perks? In Illinois, it's fringies the GOP, the Libertarians and Greens who are clamoring for computer-driven remapping. Frankly, it's going to be damned near impossible to convince a party that's worked hard to gain a legislative advantage to risk it all on a remapping system driven by program that could e-whimsically map their majority out of existence.

      There are also federal law that require that majority minority-districts remain as such. How much authority is anybody willing to give the code writers to come up with a means of maintaining these districts? And how can you suggest that a computer-selected districting map is unbiased?

      IRV is also a goofy notion, once one looks into the detailed dynamics of elections. If you want to boost campaign contributions, and the related noise, it's a good thing. But it will not create a situation where minor parties are elected. Instead, the result will be that the Greens, the Libertarians, the Constitution Party, the various splinters of the Reform Party, will all raise their campaign funds as goon-squads, whose sole true purpose is to attack a major candidate. (i.e., that's how they'll raise money) Thus, the advantage goes to the major party with the most max'd-out contributors - can you guess who they are? Thus, the Libertarian Party, Constitution Party, and the various remaining splinters of the Reform Party will effectively become message subsets of the GOP, steered there by contributions from Corporate America; the Greens, on the other hand, will not be able to find additionaal funding except by tapping into cash that would that would tend to go to Democrats.

      Election reform really involves game theory. The problem, though, with any chaotic situation is that they are, on the whole, unpredictable, unless you pay attention to all the "rules" and the resources. This game change does not tend to favor our side.

      vote early - vote often

      by wystler on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 09:20:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your'e probably right. (none)
        I have to admit that when it comes to a lot of issues, I'm in over my head. There are a lot of ideas that seem great on the surface, but lose their lustre once you really get into them.
        IRV probably does have a great potential to create an environment like the one you mentioned, but the alternative is to be stuck with a two-corporate-party system.

        I'd love to see IRV tested on a local level first, and then build the idea slowly up from there.  

        I'm sure this gerrymandering idea, if it were brought up at a democratic committe meeting, would get you laughed out of the session. Democrats are simply not going to give up the gains they've made in districting to prove a political point.

         No local Democrat would willignly give up an advantage they held in a certain are in the interest of democracy. However, a newly elected third party politician just might be bold enough to try it somewhere. Hence the need to enect IRV in local races first.

        There's more than one way to skin a cat.

        •  IRV (none)
          I assume that IRV means instant run-off voting (to prevent the need for a second election if no candidate exceeds 50% of the vote in the original election).  If so, it has gone into effect in San Francisco for the election of the Board of Supervisors (the local equivalent of the City Council).  This past election was the first time it was put in place, over much opposition from the "downtown political structure" (still more liberal than virtually anywhere else in the nation, but more conservative than the "neighborhood" coalitions, and with the nearly universal problems of any power structure, such as patronage politics, etc).

          There were problems with the count, and my post-election news boycott of any site but here makes me unsure of the length of time it took to confirm results (also, elections in SF are notoriously corrupt).  But it is a local example of use of IRV, which seems to have caused no dramatic problems.  Of course, local elections are non-partisan (the real battle here is between the Dems and the Greens -- no real Republicans).  But it is a model that can be watched.  

          [Open to suggestions for clever signature line here]

          by mwk on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 11:33:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  start the constitutional amendment process (none)
          Upthread someone mentioned that it would be better if we got behind (i.e. write your state representatives, governors, congressmen, local media) supporting a national non-partisan reapportionment constitutional amendment.  Here in California Herr Gropenator is moving towards a reapportionment special election, and the state GOP may be strong-armed into following.  It will be a DISASTER if the regressive right beats us to this issue (write your Democratic congressman and mention THAT!).  

          California Dems will be hard pressed to argue against something that is inherently fair unless they have the cover of a national movement that would be even more fair.

          "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
          CaliBlogger.com

          by CaliBlogger on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 12:31:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  great original (to me) analysis (none)
        if nobody else has written this it's a great insight and should be on the front page of some blog somewhere

        this is the post that should get 60+ '4s'

    •  not IRV (none)
      Instant Runoff Voting only makes sense if considered superficially.

      There are many goals for a voting system. A good chunk of these goals involve eliminating strategic voting. IRV fails miserably to do this.

      The current plurality system encourages people to suppress their true preference in many circumstances.

      IRV maintains this problem. After early IRV eliminations, assume that the last four parties are Green, Democrat, Republican and Libertarian.
      Assume that your true preference ranking is:
      G, D, L, R (as mine would likely be, depending of course on the candidates). Next elimination knocks out the Libs. Now we have Dems, Reps, and Greens. If the Greens now have the fewest votes, they will be eliminated and your vote will transfer to the Dems. No problem here. What happens when the Greens actually get enough support to have a chance to win the election. Now we have trouble. What happens if the Democrat now has the fewest votes and is eliminated before the Green? Unless all the votes for Democrat now transfer to the Green (which simply isn't happening), it is possible that the Republican might beat the Green. My vote for the Green ahead of the Democrat can have caused the Republican to win instead of the Democrat. I have to make the same sort of lesser evils decisions that I do in plurality voting systems once my "minor" party becomes viable. The only thing I've managed to do is make myself feel better along the way while the Greens are not yet viable.

      A superior method (by far) is Condorcet. You use the same ranking preference system as you do in IRV, but now you don't have situations where you would gain through strategic voting. The only real problem with Condorcet is apparent complexity. It is not easy to explain. There are some transparency issues that may make it impractical to gather support for the method.

      A more practical solution would be Approval voting. In Approval voting, you simply vote yes or no for all candidates. This does not accomplish nearly as much good as Condorcet would, but is still superior to both Plurality and IRV. (The correct Approval strategy in voting is probably to pick the saddle point where you would have been willing to make a lesser of two evils decision and then vote for all candidates that you like more than this.)

      And if you need anything...there's some ants.

      by Skipbidder on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 04:20:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think that being against gerrymandering (3.80)
    should be one of our core beliefs for one simple reason.  

    Gerrymandering limits the likelyhood of open debate during an election.  

    It limits the likelihood of the opposing party to oppose the incumbent and thus the people are stuck with what they have, even if they do want a change.  

    We should disarm unilatteraly and present them as being against fair elections.  Make them be against open debate.  Make them be against open discussion of issues.  Make them be against the right to choose from a wide variety of officials.  Make them defend the rights of a few party elite to pick candidates that run in gerrymandered districts and get elected.  

    We should not be for gerrymandering and should not tolerate it at all within our own party.  This is similar to the torture thing that the aristocracy is presenting now.  "Well, they do it, so it's okay for us to do it too."  Bull.  We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard before we demand it of them.  As long as we promote gerrymandering in any state in any position, we lose the moral high ground.

    There are democrats that will say but we'll probably lose some seats that we've gerrymandered.  True. But I ask them: Do you honestly believe that the Republicans can beat us on issues?  Because when we allow gerrymandering, even in our favor, that is what we are saying.  We don't have issues that people will relate to. So we need to cheat a little to make sure we remain in power.    

    "What is Conservatism and What is Wrong With It?" http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html

    by sdlohrenz on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 04:56:34 AM PST

    •  Aye, there's the rub (none)
      So, open opportunity for representation across the board threatens the entrenched powers not just in the GOP, but the Dems, too?  What a surprise!  I hink you've pointed out the source of DNC failure to embrace this or anything that's truly progressive.  I applaud the idea loudly, but wonder what it'll take to get ALL entrenched Congresscritters (reps and sens) to sign on.

      Recommended

      •  grass/netroots pressure (none)
        I think this is an idea that needs to be debated here, forged, then sent out across the country. That is what this site has the potential to do. I am convinced that at least a few ideas that germinated on this site had an impact on the pres. campaign. The potential of this idea is incredible to allow people to stand on a public soap box surrounded by virtual townsfolk and plead their case. If enough of us agree that an idea is good we pledge to push that through a campaign of e-mails and letters to the editor. We can also use the Net to raise funds when needed. This is an incredible tool and we have the power. We have to figure out how best to weild that power. I think there is potential here to force a national call for state-by-state election reform which gerrymandering is a part of since it eliminates contested elections and promotes further corruption of the system. It's bad enough that people tend to vote for the devil they know, but then gerrymandering seals the deal.

        As I heard it on NPR, if not for the dirty Delay Redistricting scam in Texas Democrats would have picked up 2 seats in the House! This is one of THE key issues facing the our country. Together with voting reform, a 10 point plan for reform begins to emerge on Kos. I'd like to see after the holiday, a concerted effort to begin to focus on our message to take back Congress in 2004. We need to hand the Democrats a simple, effective message of reform and force them to follow it or face our wrath (we need to realize that one of the most important ways in which we make a difference is in the primaries especially in the coming off-year election and then in our local and state party conventions). Our argument has to be against the corporate corruption of the system and why people should care about what happens to the poor and the middle class. All of these issues are tied together. We just need to find the strand that connects them and it seems to be a general theme of reform.

        •  I'm still developing my thinking on this (none)
          but why not a constitutional amendment?

          For practical reasons it would have to start in the Senate (whose incumbents are not subject to reapportionament of course).

          Concurrently pressure would have to be exerted on the house, whose members would be affected.  The question then is which house members could conceivably go along with this?

          Answer 1: members who already come from districts with non-partisan reapportionment in place.
          (interesting note:  If Herr Gropenator gets his way this will include California, which would still remain Democratic, though likely not so heavily so.  My fear is that the Cal GOP will be able to turn this into a Repug issue, a disaster for Dems and a reason):

          Answer 2: The Democratic party should support a constituional amendment now, despite the self-interest of individual reps.  My hope is that this can be acheived by a combination of:

          a) a strongly pro-reform DNC (go Dr. Dean!) and a
          b) strong showing of grassroots supprt (that's us).

          It's getting late and I'm getting tired, more ideas and strategies to come, but let me be the first to announce my support of the Fair Districting Amendment.

          "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
          CaliBlogger.com

          by CaliBlogger on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 01:00:32 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  and lets run positive campaigns (none)
      And let's only talk about the issues, because swing voters want to know about the issues. And when the Republicans attack us let's hold ourselves to a higher standard while letting the GOP know that they have hurt our feelings. Let's focus on how we play the game not whether we win or lose. Let's plan for the "glorious defeats" where we will be remembered as martyrs. </bullshit>
      •  yes to positive campaigns (none)
        no to policy

        And let's only talk about the issues, because swing voters want to know about the issues ... martyrs. </bullshit>

        thank you! good to hear a voice of reason ... how soon people forget framing, George Lakoff's lesson on why Dems have been getting thrashed by the GOP for years ...

        this unilateral disarmament angle is a load of manure ... progressivist my _____ ... it's just plain, simple wimpery by folks who'd rather ask "should I touch my toes" when asked to bend over ...

        Politics is about winning. Governing comes after that.

        vote early - vote often

        by wystler on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 09:27:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is about winning. (none)
          And I say that we can win without gerrymandering.  If that's whimpering, then so be it, but it sounds a lot more about taking off the gloves and going man to man with someone. It's looking the opponent in the eye and saying 'Take away everything else and I'll still kick the shit out of you'.  

          I keep hearing a lot about having a spine.  Well we can have a spine about this.  If we want to be wimps then we can continue to gerrymander our way into a regional power.  

          This is and should be one of our issues.  We can easily frame this right and beat them with it until they're black and blue.  

          (I didn't really understand your post, if you were agreeing with me or not, so for the fun of it, I assumed not.)

          "What is Conservatism and What is Wrong With It?" http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html

          by sdlohrenz on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 10:06:29 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (none)
            spoken like the drunk, after being whipped in the alley behind the bar for the umpteenth time:

            'Take away everything else and I'll still kick the shit out of you'.

            There are times you just shouldn't go there. Like right after you've lost another decision. (i.e., losses in both houses of Congress)

            (I didn't really understand your post, if you were agreeing with me or not, so for the fun of it, I assumed not.)

            What part of my post, or Blogswarm's Let's plan for the "glorious defeats" where we will be remembered as martyrs. </bullshit> led you to believe either of us favored the unilateral disarmament that the diarist supports?

            vote early - vote often

            by wystler on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 10:20:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Okay, so (none)
              you think that the whole gerrymandering think is honkey dorey?  It's the best thing since sliced bread? The ends justifies the means?  

              So please tell me what is great about gerrymandering?  Is it the fact that it tends to create no choice in elected leaders?  No open debate?  It favors incumbents even more, which will tend to allow them to abuse their power, since they don't have to worry about challegers?  Maybe we shouldn't oppose it because it'll help maintain the status quo and keep the aristocracy in power.

              Did I totally screw up the framing of the debate in my post?  Was that missed or was it not 'Lakeoff approved' wording?

              Maybe we shouldn't unilatterly undo our gerrymandering.  But we should get rid of it.

              (And I missed the </bullshit>. )

               

              "What is Conservatism and What is Wrong With It?" http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html

              by sdlohrenz on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 11:48:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I would also like to know (none)
              where you've seen some democrats fighting and getting whooped?  I haven't seen it.  Our democratic leadership has had their heads so far up the Republican asses that it's more likely they've broken our necks from trying to turn around and hit us than actually hitting us.  

              Frame all you want.  I offered some framing.  I never said that we shouldn't frame.  But framing something we're against while continuing to do it is just plain wrong and makes us the same as those we are fighting against.

              Politics is about winning.  Governing is later?  

              Well, that's like saying we'll lie, cheat and steal but once we get there, we'll be honest. I swear.

              Scout's Honor?

              Oh, I'll buy that for a dollar!

              "What is Conservatism and What is Wrong With It?" http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html

              by sdlohrenz on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 04:37:16 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Great creative thinking (none)
    For everyone saying its too complicated, too much coordination, too much work --

    it only takes one State Sen or Rep in one state to get this started. Vermont has two CD's right? Find someone there to sponsor it. Get the ball rolling.

  •  This will never happen (none)
    There is no way that the party controlling a state is going to give up this sort of control.

    Especially not in Massachusetts. Take a look at Barney Frank's district, for example. As if New Bedford and Newton have anything in common...

    http://www.nationalatlas.gov/congdist/MA04_108.gif

    Will... Not... Happen...

    •  To be fair... (none)
      There are probably some people in Newton that have summr houses on the South Shore.. like New Bedford et al. :P

      In Afghanistan, they call them the Taliban. Here, we call them Republicans

      by ragnark on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 05:35:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Right (none)
      A lot of the gerrymandering is because incumbents live too close to one another.

      Quite honestly, the problem really isn't gerrymandering per se. The problem is that we've completely outgrown a congress of 435 people. It should be closer to a thousand. That leaves smaller districts (the House is supposed to be the 'chamber of the people', innit?) which leaves less necessity for gerrymandering in the first place.

      "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child."--Barack Obama

      by ChurchofBruce on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 11:50:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A little far flung... (4.00)
    In many Blue states, the democrats don't actually control the two houses, and the governorship, in fact there are only 22 democratic governors, and about half of those are in Red states...In other words, "STUNT" is just what this would be, and would not garner much media coverage, free plane tickets or no. Plus there are too many flaws with the "computer system/no human intervention" idea...

    A BETTER IDEA

    THE REAL CONTRACT WITH AMERICA

    Two things the republicans promised in 1994, but were unable or unwilling to deliver: Term limits and Line Item Veto.  

    Constitutional amendments that would actually HELP the country to get its spending under control and end the incumbency protection racket should be the democrats idea now, "They talked about reform -- WE'LL BRING IT." Congress is corrupt, and drunk on their own spending binges and corporate kickbacks...throw the bums out and we'll fight for fundamental change that fixes problems -- not just pad our own accounts while scaring people about false threats like gay marriage...Congress and their pork barrell campaign donation corruption cycle is the greatest threat to the future of this nation!

    The secret source of humor is not joy but sorrow; there is no humor in heaven. - Samuel Clemens

    by PBJ Diddy on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 05:34:46 AM PST

    •  actually, it's a very good idea. (none)
      or, we could try to outdo republicans by putting words in italics like REAL contract with america.

      like after the ghostbusters cartoon, there was the REAL ghostbusters cartoon.

      Meme for the season: "Power before principle Republicans" Ex: "Today, we saw yet again the Republicans place power before principle as they attemped to..."

      by lostinbrasil on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 06:51:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe it's a slam on me, (none)
        but it's funny and substantive, almost...sublime. Have a four.

        The secret source of humor is not joy but sorrow; there is no humor in heaven. - Samuel Clemens

        by PBJ Diddy on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 06:55:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah, it was. (none)
          i don't like to see us reject the motivational ideas of eathother.  it's discouraging.

          i agree that the diary idea seems a little zealous.  i wouldn't expect the democratic party of each state to wage such a disciplined and coordinated effort to end gerrymandering every monday.  i also have doubts that the democrats are assured of taking back majority in congress given an ungerrymandered country.  there are democratically controlled states, it seems, that simply wouldn't budge as well, but it is a great idea.  this should not stop us from implementing it in the states that are willing.  it would still be progress to me.  states can experiment with proportional representation too.  i think we can share what we think about others' ideas and what may be risky or can be added to a proposal (like for instance adding your ideas about the contract ) without saying that "it would never work."

          anyway, i have thought about the contract idea too, you know? - how we need to do something like the contract with america a while back, but forgot what i concluded.  i'm not against your idea.

          have a good one.

          Meme for the season: "Power before principle Republicans" Ex: "Today, we saw yet again the Republicans place power before principle as they attemped to..."

          by lostinbrasil on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 07:19:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  With all due respect, (none)
            I'll reject whatever I want to and you may feel free to slam me, THAT IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF FREEDOM this administration would deny us.

            I stated reasons why I felt the plan would be ineffective, and I offered what I felt was a better alternative, this is how movements avoid wasting resources (which are not infinite) on plans with little chance of success.  The biggest problem I have with such a plan is that it is clearly all for show and not intended to take effect, it is a red herring. This is the sort of tactic the republicans pull, as the author admits.  I feel one of the key reasons I am a democrat is because to me the party represents REAL solutions when so often the republicans only NAME THEIR BILLS with solution - like names, but the actual legislation often serves a useless or malignant purpose (see: No Child Left Behind, Clear Skies Initiative, Healthy Forests...et. al.)

            I did not attack the author, just stated in fact-based language the nature of my disagreement with his plan. This serves two purposes; if the basic plan is really so great, then the plan's supporters should appreciate the flaws being pointed out (since if I don't do it the opposition will) and take the opportunity to refine the plan, or having considered (perhaps) a better plan, adopt that instead. Many times I have spoken my ideas, only to have a better one presented to me, in which case I EVOLVED to a better position, I think to the greater good for the cause in general.  

            In other words, it ain't personal, ideas are fair game for attack - and if an idea can't defend itself against little old me, then it hasn't got a prayer out in the big, bad world of real-life politics.

            I still thought your slam was cute. Have another four for keeping the discussion high-level.

            The secret source of humor is not joy but sorrow; there is no humor in heaven. - Samuel Clemens

            by PBJ Diddy on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 10:12:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Term Limits don't work (4.00)
      Reducing gerrymandering (even if it stings us Dems a little) is a much better way to reduce ridiculous incumbancy problems.

      Look at California.  There are all kinds of problems in the gov't since term limits were imposed, some forseen and some not.  My favorites:

      1 -It limits our right to vote for who we think is best.   Why should we have to kick out, say, Lois Capps, just becuase her term's up? What if she doing a great job?

      2 - Politicians focus EVEN LESS on long term issues.   One of the main problems with politics these days is that no one sees the big picture, and no one cares what happens after they are out of office (CIP [case in point]: Bushco.) Why start 10 year projects when you won't be around to see them to fruition?

      3 - Staffers have no time to learn the process.  Unforseen problem in CA - when new legislators come in, all the staff around them changes as well. Can you imagine a company running when everyone who knows the nuts and bolts of the system got up and left every few years?  Enormous amount  of time is spent recreating the wheel, from the secretaries to the research assistants.

      4 - No one can focus on thier current job - they have to focus on campaigning for thier next job. Elected to the city council?  Time to start focusing on the state congress.  Elected to the state Legislature?  Time to start focusing on running for the national congress.  And so on, with all your time spent fundraising and campaigning, who has time to focus on what you were actually hired to do?

      "Throw the Bums Out" just doesn't create effective politicians.  

      In the midst of winter I discovered there was in me an invincible summer - Camus

      by super ju on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 07:04:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed... (none)
        Also, term limits combined with gerrymandered districts just means that whoever wins the primary of the current incumbent's party inherits the seat. There's little real competition (and lots of incentive for back-room deals to avoid messy primaries).

        "Think! It ain't illegal yet." -- George Clinton

        by GreenCA on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 10:20:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Term limits are in effect (none)
        lots of places, and the argument of "oh the whole government will be in the hands of lobbyists" and "perpetual campaigning" can be addressed with simple, clear and obvious campaign finance laws, including changes that can be made at the rules committee level and which require no legislation and are not subject to judicial oversight (i.e., no congressperson may return as a lobbyist until 5 years have passed since they served in the body, and likewise, no congressperson shall accept gifts, campaign donations or campaign assistance from a lobbyist ) NY City recently turned over the entire city council due to term limits (which the former mayor Giulliani tried to kill - twice! based on the arguments above) and as a matter of fact, the council is more powerful, effective and less corrupt than ever.

        California's problems are a unique inheritance from the quixotic former Governor Hiram Johnson, in that the budget must pass with two thirds, and citizen referendum is the predominant legislative tool...A perfect case of rule by mob mentality, who else but the great  unwashed voting masses  could simultaneously vote for tax cuts and increased spending ...oh wait ...the current congress did that too...

        The secret source of humor is not joy but sorrow; there is no humor in heaven. - Samuel Clemens

        by PBJ Diddy on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 10:29:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  agreed (none)
        term limits are a stupid redundancy, IF you have competetive elections every couple of years.  My belief is that the reason term limits resonated in California was the lack of fair reapportionment.  Despite periodic elections, term limits were truly the ONLY way to throw the bums out.  Ideally I'd like to see a combination of nonpartisan Fair Districting (that's the frame I'm using) and terms which are limited only by the desires of that district's voters.

        "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
        CaliBlogger.com

        by CaliBlogger on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 01:12:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Giving Bush a line-item veto is BAD (none)
      I appreciate the idea of the legislative offensive. But the last thing we want to do is give this freak more power.

      Maybe we could concentrate on what would work for working people. Concentrate on actually reining in insurance companies, providing healthcare, and protecting the environment, for instance.

      And frame it - loudly and truthfully - like, "From the administrations own record, and the Senate and Congress majority, it's clear they can't be depended on to help working families. So we're initiating this set of bills. They'll try to vote them down. But we have to try to help the working families, because they clearly don't care."

      Stay with something and stick with it, like with the tenacity of the Jersey Girls, and sanity can actually happen.

      •  Hmm (none)
        I've casually wondered if a watered-down form of the line-item veto might not be a better idea.  It probably needs a different name, but what if the President could "challenge" line-items in Christmas-tree bill, which would then go back to Congress subject to a simple majority vote?

        Or, for that matter, why not put in place a rule where a substantial minority of the legislative body, say 33%, can get an automatic up-down vote on specific line-items?  Of course, option #1 means nothing a President likes will ever get challenged, while everything he dislikes is closely scrutinized, and #2 presupposes that (1) 33% of Congress cares about slicing off others' pork items and (2) majority voters might actually critically consider the feasibility of subsidizing pineapple production in Idaho.

        Total pie-in-the-sky.  But I have to admit, I think those massive appropriations bills with ridiculous riders are a real defect in our legislative system.

        •  Here's the legislative reform I want: (none)
          I've always wanted there to be a rule:

          No unrelated riders on a bill. Subject to some quick "up-down" vote on whether it's "related".

          So, a "must-pass" education bill? Sure, add some block-grants for capital improvements to school buildings in Alabama - knock yourselves out. But, some weird tax-loophole for tackle-box manufacturers? Sorry. Go find a bill that's about taxes, or manufacturing, and try again.

          I've often wondered how much legislation gets written, and even passed, that never achieves much of anything because, well, how the hell do people find out about all the strange, fiddly extra bits added onto bills 20 years ago? It's probably against some federal statute to transport pineapples across Idaho, but who would know?

          When only the govemment lacks virtue, there remains a resource in the people's virtue; but when the people itself is corrupted, liberty is already lost.

          by Robespierrette on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 08:56:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Question-Mark Suit (none)
            I've often wondered how much legislation gets written, and even passed, that never achieves much of anything because, well, how the hell do people find out about all the strange, fiddly extra bits added onto bills 20 years ago?

            You know that late-night question-mark-suit guy who talks about getting government grants for anything and everything?  I think that's what he does, go looking for obscure provisions like the "fiddly extra bits" you mention.

          •  As I understand (none)
            The rule exists but is not enforced.  Both sides want to attach their goodies to popular legislation.

            And it hasn't always been this way.  I wonder when it stopped and how we fix it.

            DON'T BLAME ME; I VOTED FOR CLARK

            by DWCG on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 02:26:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Oooh, here's another good one: (none)
          An "Unintentional Results" review for legislation!

          How many times have we heard that the government gave subsidies to some industry in order to have such-and-such an effect, only to find that the exact opposite resulted? And that the legislation is still in force, in all its counterproductive glory?

          I'd love to see a few things:

          • Each bill would have to state its desired consequences, at the top, in the summary.
          • Each bill would have some deadline, by which the results would be expected.
          • A failure to find the desired result, or a finding of an adverse result would trigger a vote on repeal or amendment of the legislation.

          When only the govemment lacks virtue, there remains a resource in the people's virtue; but when the people itself is corrupted, liberty is already lost.

          by Robespierrette on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 09:02:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  awesome. (none)
            Totally revamping the "rational basis test" for non-inherently-suspect legislation.  Give people the right to bring suit to invalidate laws that turn out to be not causally related to achieving the stated government purpose, not just 'rationally' related to a 'legitimate' government purpose.
      •  There is a remedy for this: (none)
        it's called "Enhanced Recision" it's a form of the line item veto where a president (yes, even the ones we don't like) can veto a specific spending item (must veto the whole line, not just the last four zeroes or something like that) and that Item is then sent back to the congress to be voted on SEPERATELY from the omnibus bill, and must pass by simple majority vote - not two thirds. That way Items the legislature wanted to include will be passed, but pure pork items that benefit only one or two representatives on the bill writing committees could be killed.

        The secret source of humor is not joy but sorrow; there is no humor in heaven. - Samuel Clemens

        by PBJ Diddy on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 09:59:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  OK, so here's the scenario (none)
          Compromise is reached to block filibuster that such and such piece of legislation comes with a worker's protection package.  Bush vetos worker protection package, passes rest of legislation and the wpp goes down in flames on re-vote now that Republicans have what they want.

          The line-item veto is a very, very, very bad idea.

          •  Line item veto only applies to (none)
            appropriations bills, (there are only 16 per year, one for each department of the government, plus one for congress itself, and one for the district of Columbia) which by senate rules cannot be fillibustered.  All other legislation is the same as it is now.

            Plus, that trick (even if it were applicable, which it is not) would only work ONCE.

            There are numerous states where line-item works excellently, and the few problems with it can be removed if language is specific (such as stating that you cannot simply cross out the last 4 zeroes, making an appropriation for the NEA 10,000 instead of 100,000,000 as has occurred in some of those states) the rule can read that ONLY spending items can be vetoed, and either the entire bill or a single item appropriation in it's entirety must be struck...

            The secret source of humor is not joy but sorrow; there is no humor in heaven. - Samuel Clemens

            by PBJ Diddy on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 12:23:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Eliminate districts altogether (4.00)
    The recent election has demonstrated that nonbiased computer programs can all too easily made covertly biased.

    Instead, we should really shake the political tree by embracing proportional representation to replace the single-member districting in the current system.

    That position would rattle the status quo, and would be difficult to get incumbents from either party to support a system that got them elected.

    But no other reform offers the immediate result of enfranchising nearly half the electorate.

    What exactly is proportional representation?

    From the Center for Voting and Democracy:

    Full representation (traditionally called "proportional representation") describes electoral systems in which like-minded groupings of voters will win legislative seats in better proportion to their share of the popular vote than in winner-take-all elections.

    Whereas the winner-take-all principle awards 100% of the representation to a 50.1% majority, full representation allows voters in a minority to win their fair share of representation alongside voters in the majority. Full representation requires at least some legislators to be elected in multi-seat districts with more than one representative.

    In fact, Proportional Representation has become a standard supported by the Bush Administration to ensure fair representation among multiple ethnicities in--you guessed it--Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Candidates will be elected at a country-wide level, rather than from districts, and it is hoped that this will encourage the growth of national political parties, and multi-ethnic coalitions.  By contrast, any system employing single-member districts, or even regional multi-member ones, tends to foster regional factions and tribalism.
    •  i agree proportional rep is really the best (none)
      but it seems pretty far out to a lot of people I've talked too. i'm not sure why, but they find it confusing. we can start sowing the seeds now though and educate people.
    •  I had someone explaining this to me (none)
      And they could not convince me that this wouldn't end up with the powerful still in power - or certainly a significant enough majortiy to run it all anyway.

      I think it's a good thing to have representatives that represent the interests of a specific district. It's good for people to have just a few people that they need to contact with concerns that they want addressed instead of having to hunt down someone in a huge group trying to find someone who will go to bat for their cause.

      Proportaional representation looks like more and more of a disaster to me the larger the area becomes that you are covering.

      I find it surprising that you think that saying that the Bush administration pushing for something in Afghanistan and Iraq is a good selling point.

      Big Media - No News is Good News!

      by jakyra on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 08:02:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Irony (none)
        I was raising the irony that the Bush administration is for greater democracy and representation in Iraq and Afghanistan than they are at home.

        In addition to the PR voting for legislators, these countries are also electing their Presidents directly, unlike in the U.S..

        Besides, just because Mussolini was in favor of making the trains run on time, doesn't mean trains shouldn't run on time.

      •  A little naive, isn't it? (none)
        Tell gay voters in a district represented by fundamentalist Christians that they are better off because they "have just a few people that they need to contact with concerns that they want addressed."    Then wait for them to stop laughing.

        Suffice it to say, you have a different perspective on the value of districts when you live in one represented by a person fundamentally hostile to your interests.  

        Districts privilege like-minded, geographically compact communities over like-minded, geographically disparate communities.  I see no virtue in that.  In contrast, proportional representation allows both geographically disparate communities and geographically compact to vote together; each has equal power.

        That would seem preferable, wouldn't it?

    •  And Just Who Will These Elected Folks Be (none)
      Country-wide? I know I'm going to laugh my fool head off when you go on to explain just how the parties will select the slate of folks who might represent me ...

      Under the current system, my Congresscritter lives only a few miles away, and shares some values about my neighborhood. Explain to us all how the DNC is more qualified to determine my voice in Congress ...

      Of course, if you're a green, and just want really badly to get somebody into congress (435 congress-critters means that about .2% of the vote would net a seat, no?), without any concern for actually being able to get anything done legislatively, knock yourself out.

      And yes, of course, if the Bush Administration supports is overseas, it naturally follows that it must be a good thing ...

      vote early - vote often

      by wystler on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 09:40:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  One suggestion (none)
        In the half-proportional representation Senate model I present below we'd have 50 statewide elected Senators and one Senator from D.C. and the other 51 seats would be determined by national proportional vote with 17 slots up every 2 years (in addition to the 17-state elected Senators).

        Each of the 51 P.R. Senators would be representatives from a state (plus D.C.) and when a particular state's seat comes up that state's electorate votes both for party representation and for a Senatoral candidate.

        From the results of the national proportional election we determine the breakdown of the 17 senators by party.

        For example say in 2006 the results from the national proportional election is thus:
        48% - Democrat
        42% - Republican
        6% - Green
        4% - Libertarian

        With 17 seats up for grabs the Democratic Party would get 9 seats, Republican 7 and Green 1.

        The 9 Democratic candidates from the 17 states that attained the greatest percentage of the state vote would be given seats.  The 7 Republicans candidates from the remaining 8 states who received the highest vote total are given their seats.  And the Green would be from whatever state is left over.

        So if the 17 state-by-state results looked like this:
        DC: D = 76%, G = 13%, R = 11%
        RI: D = 57%, R = 38%, G = 3%, L = 2%
        WV: D = 53%, R = 46%, L = 1%
        CA: D = 52%, R = 40%, G = 5%, L = 3%
        NY: D = 51%, R = 43%, G = 5%, L = 1%
        MI: D = 51%, R = 46%, G = 2%, L = 1%
        IA: D = 51%, R = 45%, G = 3%, L = 1%
        MS: D = 50%, R = 44%, L = 6%
        IL: D = 49%, R = 46%, G = 4%, L = 1%
        SC: D = 48%, R = 47%, L = 4%, G = 1%
        MN: D = 45%, R = 44%, G = 10%, L = 1%
        UT: R = 58%, D = 36%, L = 6%
        AK: R = 51%, D = 30%, G = 11%, L = 8%
        MT: R = 48%, D = 40%, L = 10%, G = 1%
        TX: R = 48%, D = 45%, L = 4%, G = 3%
        FL: R = 48%, D = 48%, G = 3%, L = 1%
        NH: R = 46%, D = 45%, L = 5%, G = 4%

        The 9 Democratic Senators would be the candidates from D.C., Rhode Island, West Virginia, California, New York, Michigan, Iowa, Mississippi and Illinois.

        The 7 Republican Senators would be the candidates from Utah, Alaska, Montana, Texas, Florida, South Carolina and New Hampshire

        And the Green would be the candidate from Minnesota

        DON'T BLAME ME; I VOTED FOR CLARK

        by DWCG on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 02:22:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  another problem: Nazis (none)
      Look up the history of the Nazi party in the 1930s. One reason they got elected was because the German system had proportional representation and the parties opposed to the Nazis couldn't get their act together to agree on anything. So they won with only 40% of the vote--the other 60% being spread out between several parties.

      Italy has also had this problem, and Israel is another example. Dozens of little parties that can't form a permanant cohesive group.

      At least the two party system insures that there will only be two parties.

    •  The only Proportional Representation I'd support (none)
      Would be some kind system that's half proportional representation and half winner-take-all.

      Maybe have each state (and D.C.) have one Senator and the other 51 slots determined by national proportional representation (17 every 2 years).  Any party that garners 5.88% nationally gets a representative in the Senate for six years.  And there are plenty of ways to determine who would be the party's candidates.

      In the House however, I think we should maintain the winner-take-all system.  It's really the only way you can ensure that local issues are advocated on the national level.  And if you have a proportional representation election every 2 years (for the 17 Senators) you give incentive to Democrats in Idaho and Republicans in Massachusetts to show up for mid-term elections.

      DON'T BLAME ME; I VOTED FOR CLARK

      by DWCG on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 01:42:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think the opposite (none)
        I think the House should use proportional representation with an Approval (given legacy tech) or Condorcet (preferred) voting system, within each state.

        So Wyoming has no change, their house rep is statewide and thus has no gerrymandering issue. But California's 50-odd reps are elected statewide with proportional representation.

        The Senators don't change.

        Local issues don't matter very much at the federal level anymore. The only way they matter really is via what we call "pork".

        We are in a post-geographic society, although since it's hard to see, and hard to study, the press loves seizing upon the minority for whom it still matters (e.g. farmers and resource extractors like loggers and miners). Geography is vastly overemphasized in our present government system (it was much more important when this was set up...and a lot of the setup, including the EC, was a vain effort to head off the Civil War).

        And since the representation will still be split up within states (I do not favor the country-wide approach), there will still be plenty of local accountability.

        Curing the problems of winner take all, gerrymandering, and most federal pork is very appealing. The multiparty fractiousness will only take place in the House, which to me is fine.

        The House becomes a check on the two-party system. Isn't that a huge win?

  •  Hah! (1.00)
    Only problem is, Dems won't do it. Take my home state of MA, which is rigidly Dem and whose gerrymandering is worse than TX.

    The Kennedy machine and Kerriatrics control everything, want to keep it so, and do whatever they want to maintain.

    There isn't enough ethics in the Dem party to pull off such a stunt in one state, much less all of them.

    Independent--draw the line, don't toe it.

    by xysrl on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 05:42:55 AM PST

  •  I doubt the media will cover it the way you hope (none)
    Gerrymandering isn't a sexy topic that enough people care about.  People care (in no particular order) about their entitlements, taxes, education, public safety, etc.  If the Dems want to make news, thats the place to start.

    Making news as the opposition party isnt about doing what you might think an opposition party should be doing.  Its about doing what people want, and that the party in power is NOT doing.

    Memo to all Democratic campaigns: We already know about the problems. Where is the creative vision? (Extra credit if it fits into a sound bite!)

    by Matty NYC on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 06:05:31 AM PST

    •  an opposition party is not about what you say, (none)
      but what i say.

      Meme for the season: "Power before principle Republicans" Ex: "Today, we saw yet again the Republicans place power before principle as they attemped to..."

      by lostinbrasil on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 06:55:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  True, opposition can take many forms (none)
        But isn't the point here to sell your views to the public? Why sell something no one is buying?

        Memo to all Democratic campaigns: We already know about the problems. Where is the creative vision? (Extra credit if it fits into a sound bite!)

        by Matty NYC on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 08:16:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I like it, but I misunderstood at first. (none)
    ...must be too early in the morning.  When I read about the computer program that will handle redistricting without any human intervention allowed, I thought, aha!  We'll pull a Diebold on everyone!

    But yeah, it's a good idea --  shame the gerrymandered red states by bringing the issue out into the open.

    "Both Christians and Satanists believe in God. It is not what one believes but rather how that belief compels one to act."
    -- Fugi Saito

    by Susan1138 on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 06:17:25 AM PST

  •  Two things (none)
    the computer districting really would have a tough time with "communities of interest" (I know they get short shrift now but...) and, you depend, in part, on the Repubs sense of shame, they have none. The argument they made in Texas was "We are the majority so we should have as many seats as we like." They said it in those words. They would argue that it was a  stupid plan because democrats would get elected and then gays could get married.  

    "If I pay a man enough money to buy my car, he'll buy my car." Henry Ford

    by johnmorris on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 06:17:26 AM PST

  •  Who'll create this "unbiased" program? (none)
    I think you have way too much faith in the power of computers. You'd probably come up with some funky districts that split neigbhorhoods in the middle of the block and things like that.

    And whom would we trust to program these things and how will we know the program is "unbiased"?

    •  do you trust the computer that you used to write (none)
      your comment to post it to the blog?

      Meme for the season: "Power before principle Republicans" Ex: "Today, we saw yet again the Republicans place power before principle as they attemped to..."

      by lostinbrasil on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 06:56:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  you (none)
      need to have some sort of a human element to drawing up maps.  there are cases where judgement and knowing the area matters more than adhearing to a strict formula. now i whole heartedly support independent redistricting, i just contend that there needs to be a human element to it.
    •  my idea (none)
      is that the methodology should be so straightforward and obvious, and the data on which it is based should be so publicly available, that anyone that doubts it can write (or have someone write) their own version of the program and rerun it.  if they get vastly different results, then they can fight it.

      expect in a week or two a diary by me about my prototype program for doing this, hopefully with links to the real program running over 2000 census data.

      it essentially plops a rectangle over the state that encompasses its who area.  then, it devides the state in halfs or thirds that are equal in population by a line(s) running north/south.  then it devides those areas into halfs or thirds by a line running east/west.  and so on until you have your correct number of districts.  

      in a case where the state has a number of seats that is not factorable by 2s and 3s (which is maybe lots states) you can deal with that.

      more soon...

      •  don't favor your solution, but here are some tips (none)
        1. keep precincts intact within single districts (state and federal legislative)

        2. districts are required to have near-equal populations

        3. prison inmates are counted as populace for the purpose of apportionment in at least some states

        4. track population by race to maintain statutorily-required majority minority-districts

        does your head hurt yet? (it will soon enough ...)

        vote early - vote often

        by wystler on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 09:48:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  those programs already exist (none)
        and are used by the Rs and Ds when they have their redistricting fights. You can tune the programs to give you any answer you want.
      •  Another desirable quality... (none)
        ...would be to follow existing boundaries (city/county etc.) whenever possible, to minimize the types of situations where 95% of a city is in one district and the other 5% in another.

        I agree with a previous poster, that the process would need to have human input to produce districts that would be generally acceptable.

        "Think! It ain't illegal yet." -- George Clinton

        by GreenCA on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 10:45:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  if you allow human input (none)
          you allow gerrymandering.

          and if you follow existing county outlines i think you risk politicians/parties gerrymandering by changing county outlines (rules for changing countys differ from state to state and are usually very difficult to make happen [according to my tiny bit of research, those that know otherwise feel free to say so], but if the power balance was threatened you might see those laws change quickly).  following precinct outlines though probably makes sense, it would be a lot of effort to tweak things at that granular a level and probably reap little result.

    •  yeah. (none)
      I remember when they tried to redistrict high schools in my hometown, and it just chopped right through neighborhoods.  seemed like a suboptimal solution.

      But if you're going to have computers drawing lines, why not do it in a really transparent way:  representation by alpha group.  I have to admit, it'd be fun to see what happens when you get to ethnically weighted last names, with Chinese and Koreans dominating the Cs and Irish and Scots in the Os and Ms.  It's be tougher to figure out how best to serve your constituency, though.  The Z representative would be all about Backwards Day.

    •  Well... (none)
      As long as the computers have the information like what constitutes a neighborhood or what other things shouldn't be done, it should be able to work around them.  As long as people agreed to the rules the program would work by and it would come to the same result each time, things should be fine.
    •  More transparent: (none)
      Using "such-and-such computer program" in the legislation is really tricky -- technology advances faster than legislation.  What OS would this program run under?  Windows?  Linux?  OS X?  All of these will become very outdated in the near future.  Limiting the decision-making process to a particular, fixed piece of software would soon become a liability.  

      It'd be like a piece of legislation that required that all State of the Union addresses be archived on 8-track tape.  

      Instead, require that a particular algorithm be used that's open and transparent that anyone with sufficient programming knowledge could code themselves to verify the results.  

      From the pain come the dream. From the dream come the vision. From the vision come the people. From the people come the power. From this power come the change.

      by osterizer on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 11:12:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This problem has been rather thoroughly (4.00)
    investigated.

    Many years ago, Congress would have a big partisan fight every ten years (after the Census)over how to apportion House seats among the states. When you divide the population of the country by the total number of House seats, you get a 'representation ratio'. Dividing this number into the population of each state gives you a whole number and a fraction. The state is clearly entitled to the whole number of seats, but how to allocate the fractions and the left-over seats? There are several algorithms to do this, but which one to choose? So the parties would see which algorithm would be to their advantage (this time), and have a big tussle over this.

    Finally, common sense prevailed (for once), and they decided to specify an algorithm for all time to come. This solution has been used as an analogy to solving the districting problem by similarly specifying an algorithm for districting, exactly as you propose.

    The catch is, districting is by no means a well-defined problem. There are a number of competing criteria to be simultaneously satisfied:

    1. Population of each district (in a state)should be substantially equal. Courts have interpreted this to mean 'as equal as possible', even better than 1%.

    2. Districts should be geographically 'compact'. The problem is, there is no simple definition of 'compact' that can be implemented in an algorithm. I do GIS work, and have played around with this myself, creating truly bizarre spiral-shaped districts that satisfy many of the mathematical definitions of compactness, yet any human being looking at them would immediately reject them as being nonsensical.

    3. Districts should at least be contiguous. This is easy enough to define. Interestingly, many districts today meet only the minimal criterion of contiguity, being connected only at a single point.

    4. To the degree possible consistent with the above, districts should follow existing county/municipal boundaries.

    5. Recently, we've seen added the criterion that districting create or preserve 'majority-minority' districts. This has played right into the hands of Republicans, who win by packing as many minority (largly Democratic) voters safely into these few districts.

    Again, the problem is this is not a well-defined problem. Even if you agree on the algoritms and the weights applied to the various criteria, the process which tends to come up with the 'best' districts according to most sensible criteria sets employs an 'annealing' algoritm - finding the best fit by trial and error. Hence it is not deterministic, and you get different results on successive runs of the same data set. Then how do you prove that this pretty map was actually produced by the algorithm you have mutually agreed upon?
    •  Thanks (none)
      I was thinking along these lines, but I appreciate the detail.

      There's a larger philosophical issue here, as well:  the attempt to find technical solutions to political problems is an old one.  That's why Plato thought that philosophers as the best rulers.  (As a sometime teacher of philosophy, I sometimes feel drawn to Plato's idea myself, but ...)  In our times, of course, it's not philosophers but mathematicians/programmers/computers that we turn to.

      Taking the people out of the politics isn't the solution.  But maybe the basic idea can still work?  Blue state legislatures draw up districts that are intuitively fair and compact, and dare red state legislatures to follow suit?

      "The heart of the matter is found not in the voting nor in the counting ... but in the process by which the majority is formed." ~ John Dewey

      by Theolog on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 07:33:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  it must be deterministic (none)
      Then how do you prove that this pretty map was actually produced by the algorithm you have mutually agreed upon?
      Yes it must be deterministic. You may have to sacrifice some of these criteria to do it (#5 definately, but this is a dumb criteria anyway. #4 to an extent possibly).

      However, I think there is value in having the districts shift around every 2 years. Why? It weakens incumbancy, or at least forces incumbents to really fight for their life and have to justify themselves to new constituencies. It also mixes the communities up and forces more people to try to work together.
      •  I did not adequately convey the difficulty. (none)
        Even if you limit yourself to criteria 1 and 2, there really is no way to do specify a deterministic algorithm to solve this problem, which works in every case.
        •  i may disagree (none)
          once i get my beta districting program working i will know. the districts will be rectangles of equal (below .1% diff) population. i have a feeling i may end up with some really long thin rectangles though, which might defy the compactness idea.
          •  OK. Cool. (none)
            Will you be testing on real precinct data (i.e., non-continuous?) When you test it out on a variety of situations, do let us know - post the details & results on a website, and post a diary here pointing to it.

            Good luck!

          •  Limit the points (none)
            I was already thinking after memiller's post above that perhaps you could specifically limit the number of "points" (or degree of curvature) in drawing the boundary? I like the rectangle idea.
          •  voronoi cells (none)
            i've been thinking that a good solution might involve something similar to the method for producing voronoi cells, where all the points in the cell are closer to the center than any of the other centers.  that's conceptually quite easy, but only applies to area.

            for varying population density i think you'd have to come up with a different method to get equal-population districts, but i wonder if there isn't something similar.  i just don't know enough topo an' stuff to figure it out.

            courage, faith and truth my brothers and sisters

            by zeke L on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 06:50:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  edge to area ratio... (none)
      Couldn't the ratio of the boundary area to the area of the district be factored in, in order to minimize spirals and such?  I don't know, but it seems that treating the districts like a drop of liquid with surface tension should keep long narrow districts out of the running, even if they're compact (e.g. spiral).
    •  "majority-minority" districts... (none)
      ...as I recall, this was a court-ordered solution to racially gerrymandered districts that essentially eliminated any chance of minorities getting elected. If that's accurate, then a demonstrably unbiased districting method might not need to satisfy this restriction.

      "Think! It ain't illegal yet." -- George Clinton

      by GreenCA on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 11:29:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Too simple. (4.00)
    We need to add lots of bells and whistles that leave lots of loopholes and turn this simple and brilliant idea into a Byzantine maze of blather that no one can navigate. Otherwise, the politicians won't understand it.

    Seriously, I love this idea. Which is why I suspect nothing like it will ever take hold. I'm recommending the diary, however, on the off chance someone with the ear of a Democrat who can get the ball rolling will bring it to his or her attention. Thinking outside the box is not the forte of your average politician, so I doubt this idea has ever entered the mind of a politician. Good luck to us -- wouldn't it be marvelous if the actually started DOING something?

    Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

    by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 07:21:02 AM PST

  •  If nothing else ... (4.00)
    this is very creative thinking.  So I've recommended for that reason.

    I do think we need some sort of "Contract w/ America" gimmick that helped those Gingrich-ites so much.  

  •  Interesting Thought (none)
    It is not just Republicans that benefit from gerrymandering of course.  It is elected officials from both parties.

    You would run into a lot of pushback from Democratic elected officials who would fear they would lose their seat in an open race.

    As to whom it would benefit, I am not sure.  In some states, it would help Republicans (PA and CA, for example).  In other states, it would help Democrats (TX and GA, for example).

    Iowa has non-partisan redistricting every 10 years.  While it has a Democratic Governor and a split Senate delegation, 4 of the 5 Congressmen are Republicans.

  •  awesome (3.50)
    This state shall use such-and-such nonbiased computer program for districting of congressional seats and senate seats. No human intervention or adjustment of parameters is allowed."
    i happen to be working on a prototype/beta of such a program in my 'spare time' which has been sparse lately. probably will have something worth showing in a week or so. if you think this is a worthwhile thing to do, please show so by rating this post.
  •  Or go the opposite way. (4.00)
    Im in general not in favor of unilateral disarmament.  We bring knives to gun fights waayyy to often.

    I'm in favor of Gerrymandering the crap out of every state we can while pressing for a constitutional amendment that will make Gerrymandering more difficult.

    The assumption that a unilateral to fair redistricting will help our cause depends on:

    • An unbiased media that does more than report winger spin
    • A media and a public with an attention span - Gerrymandering is a complex issue.
    • A Republican sense of shame
    I think all these are not so likely, especially the third.

    They want us to play nice so they can play dirty.  We've been turning the other cheek for so long we have a mirror image tattoo of their school rings permanently embedded on our face.

    I say no more: we fight.  And when they want the rules to apply to everyone, not just us, then we make it happen.  Not before.

  •  this is excellent (none)
    the best thing we can do as an opposition party is get the Republicans in power to say no to things that sound like good ideas to the public. Then we can hammer them on it come campaign time.

    But it's hard to do because they can bog down Democratic proposals in the US congress in committee and not allow them to be brought up for a vote. So using the states that have Democratic majority legislatures is a great option. Fantastic idea.

  •  Iowa (4.00)
    Iowa already has such a system.  They use the courts to establish districts, rather than a computer. It's an excellent solution.

    W was elected to protect Them from Us.

    by Radical Middle on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 08:18:36 AM PST

    •  Iowa has an independent commission (none)
      As does Arizona, I believe.  Every ten years, the census data is used to redraw the districts, and the people doing the redrawing are the independent commission members.  It strikes me as the only legit way to do it.

      I haven't lived here in IA long enough to know the history behind it - how it came about, who introduced the idea, etc.

    •  Excellent? (none)
      Pray tell, what is the party breakdown for the congressional delegation and state legislature?

      Now, please, what is the aggregate vote total for these two bodies?

      vote early - vote often

      by wystler on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 10:00:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well... (none)
        ...the congressional delegation is 4 R - 1 D. However, the Democrats have pluralities in 3 of the 5 districts, despite Republicans having a slight edge in registration statewide.

        "Think! It ain't illegal yet." -- George Clinton

        by GreenCA on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 12:04:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  constitutional amendment, not state laws (4.00)
    I liked the idea someone posted a week or so ago of a constitutional amendment requiring the districts be drawn with the minimum perimeter possible to have equal populations in each district.  That eliminates gerrymandering.  I don't know how you can specify a non-partisan computer program.  It can be written to be partisan or not, and partisanship is in the eye of the beholder.  Minimum perimeters is more objective.  
        A constitutional amendment also solves the problem of unilateral disarmament and of one or two states holding out.  It doesn't take effect until ratified by 2/3 of the states.  So we only need 2/3 of the states, and in the meantime we do not unilaterally disarm.  
    •  two problems (none)
      First, this is a non-deterministic packing problem, so there is not a unique solution.

      Second, this method would eliminate minority districts--something Democrats favor.

      •  Why? (none)
        Why do we favor minority districts if in exchange we give the republicans more representatives?  I don't know why anyone thinks it's smart to pack all the democratic voters into a weird shaped district.  

        In my opinion we've had too few national leaders come out of the black caucus.  I believe they would have a better chance if they represented more balanced districts.

        I guess I'm being controversial.  I like our minority members in congress and I wouldn't mind seeing them lead the party.  But without control of congress, they'll lucky if they can get one meeting with the whitehouse in the next four years.  

        •  Amen to that (none)
          I firmly believe that gerrymandering has given us more radical minority representatives that don't go on to become national leaders which I think we desperately need. The GOP admit their gerrymandering scheme in Texas was partly intended to worsen the situation.
    •  Constitutional amendments -> (none)
      can start in the state legislatures and we only need 38 states to play -- not 50 like the diary author is suggesting.  It would hand the ball off to the senate and house.  They can block it -- but they will look like the party of entrenched power and we will look like the party of reform.  

      I'm not sure what the wording would be.  I suggest a non-partisan method or a multi-party consensus.  I suggest a convention of retired politicians and political activists that are sick of politicians picking their voters and not the voters picking their politicians.  

  •  It wouldn't work (none)
    The Republicans would just say "Your side does it too," and denounce it as empty grandstanding, and you know what?  They'd be right.  We would have to unilaterally disarm to get any mileage out of this, and it wouldn't even come close to being worth the, what, 10 or 20 seats we would lose.

    Pushing a constitutional amendment outlawing gerrymandering instead of doing it on a state by state basis would be a better idea.  

  •  I'd rather redistrict Hastert out of office (4.00)
  •  excellent - (none)
    Rove would be proud.
  •  I think Iowa's there (none)
    If I remember right, the computer program that does Iowa redistricting does three things: it puts together districts with equal population, it draws compact district, and it follows existing lines as much as possible - not splitting up towns, for instance.  One thing it does not do is give any consideration as to where incumbents live, which is why Jim Leach had to move to Iowa City from Davenport.

    One down, 49 to go?

  •  Washington State is already there (none)
    Our districts are already drawn by a citizen commission. Partisanship is out of the equation.
  •  We need more of this (none)
    Wether this would work or not I don't know.

    But someone spent time thinking of a strategy to help the DEMs.

    You ROCK =)

  •  Better act fast! (4.00)
    Schwarzenegger may end gerrymandering in California through the intiative process -- and without any safeguards about what the other states are doing.  

    The special election could be as early as next fall:

    http://www.fairdistricts.com/index.asp

    A US constitutional amendment is the normal way to make something national.  According to the constitution this is also something we can start in the state legislatures.  We can get it through 20 states with simple party unity and we only need 38 states total not 50.  After that it's off to the house of representatives and the senate.  That's when we need to get the media on our side.  If the republicans fight it -- they will appear to be the party of entrenched power.

    Framing:  Let the people choose their representives.  Don't let the politicians choose their voters.

    PS.  Don't advertise your bill as "pure theatre" in public.  There is no reason not to make the bill as perfect as possible.  I suggest a national convention of ex-politicians, activists, and academics to help write it.  One method is to give the states a great amount of leeway to create a non-partisan or multi-party consensus method -- and keep the details out of the constitution.  

    •  Blatant power grab (none)
      If Schwarzenegger is really interested in reforming the system, let him propose a new process to take effect after the next census. Redistricting once a decade is disruptive enough without do-overs because the governor thinks he can get more of his party into office.

      "Think! It ain't illegal yet." -- George Clinton

      by GreenCA on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 12:09:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I believe the measure would -> (none)
        only take effect after the next census, but I'll have to look back at the latest wording (it's in the link I put above).  

        I'm against it for the simple reason that takes the California card away from democrats that might fight for the end of gerrymandering nation wide.  

        It also seems fairly complicated.  It is based upon committees of retired judges.  Are retired judges predominantly Republican?   Are they mostly anti-property tax and anti-school district funding?  I'd like to have a few people under 60 in on the decision making process.  I'm just suspicious as it comes from the same guy who spear-headed the recall of Gray Davis.  

        By the way -- current California districting is biased toward non-competitive districts and not toward either democrats or republicans.  Schwarzenegger thinks that non-partisan redistricting will make districts more competitive and push out some democratic incumbents.  He thinks the republicans will be able to buy these competitive seats with money and his star power.  The measure also addresses state legislature districts.  I don't know what effects of this local redistricting might have.    

        •  Takes effect immediately (none)
          Section 1b of the proposal says that the newly appointed panel draws up new districts immediately

          for use in the next statewide primary and general elections and until the next  adjustment of boundary lines is required pursuant to subdivision (a).

          ...that is, until after the next census.

          If Schwarzenegger calls a special election, it will cost Californians $60 million. Not what I expect from a guy who got elected on a promise to fix the budget.

          "Think! It ain't illegal yet." -- George Clinton

          by GreenCA on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 01:54:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks (none)
            I think they did change the wording from the last time I read it in detail (August).  

            They were ready to place the measure on the November ballot but Schwarzenegger's advisors called it off.  

            I think they somehow find it advantageous to be in a special election (less democratic voters?  anti-democratic incumbent momentum going into 2006?).  What's 60 million when it's not really yours?

            If the democrats in California fight it they will get pounded in 2006 by Schwarzenegger as the bums that need to get thrown out.  I haven't seen any California democrats react to this.  They seem to be hoping it will go away.  I think they need a pro-active response -- something like the proposal of a national anti-gerrymandering amendment.  

  •  scientific approach (none)
    could be the following:

    1. Define the contraits and the objective function. E.g. constraints: each district in one piece (+ something about the islands) and the population should be withing, say. 0.2% from state average.

    Objective: minimize the weighted sum of lengths of boundaries.  Why weighted: say that municipal boundaries have 5 times smaller weight than other segments of distric boundaries.

    2.  Let anyone submit the map, only proposals that satisfy the constrains are eligible and one that has lowest objective value wins.

    One can quibble about the objectives and constraints, but having more than one objective makes it impossible to automatically choose what is the best.  However, one can a weighted sum.

  •  Redistricting and therefore gerrymandering (none)
    are handled by state legislatures. Consequently the definition of red state/blue state changes.

    It is no longer a matter of whether a state votes red or blue at the federal level which is how everyone defines red state/blue state.

    It would now be a matter of red/blue state legislatures.

    Didn't we just win Montana and Colorado?

    Isn't the difference between the number of Dem/Rep state legislators in the country about 3 or 4?

    And better than theater... wouldn't it be great to actually fix the problem?

    "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

    by Andrew C White on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 12:03:10 PM PST

  •  Programs for redistricting: (none)
    There are many GIS add ons to help people redistrict to meet rules, guidelines, or results that one party might want to see:
    ----------------------------------------
    http://www.caliper.com/Redistricting/autodistrict.htm

    http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/extensions/districting/about/overview.html

    http://www.digitalcorp.com/redserv.htm
    -----------------------------------------------
    I don't know why the last one is called "redserv"  :)

    Programs might be helpful -- but I think any fair system must pass some sort of consensus test.  In the end you have to give some power to the states to find a solution that works for them.  Especially since you are asking the state legislatures to start the process in the first place.  

    I suggest wording that states clearly that partisanship can play no role in the selection of districts (in addition to restrictions on the nature of redistricting committees, the shapes of districts, etc.).  This provides an avenue for court challenges if someone tries to find a loophole or abuse the system.  

    There may be deterministic programs, but which determisitic program you choose will probably have an effect on the urban rural power struggle.  It would be much less controversial to provide general guidelines in a constitutional amendment and let the interested parties fight it out in the legislatures and the courts.  

  •  Scuse me, but why wait? (none)
    Pardon me for asking, but why do we need to set up this clever yet elaborate scheme to prove the republicans don't want election reform?

    Haven't they been clear enough? We have no shortage of evidence to point to, the problem is we're not pointing to it.

    As angry as I am with the media whores, I'm getting pretty fed up with our eggshell-stepping party reps doing their goddamned best to avoid saying anything that isn't nice, which leaves them completely silent on what is true.

    The truth about the wingers is ugly but there is certainly no shortage of it. They don't need us to force their hand -- they've been showing their hand for 4 years now and I'm hard pressed to name more than a few visible democrats who have called them out.

    What we need isn't another blatant republican slapdown of democracy -- we've got an abundance of those already. No, what we need is for visible democrats to come together, swallow hard, and in unison present the frame. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Wherever they are, in whatever numbers, they must stick to framing the real right wing agenda.

    The wingers will laugh derisively and call names, but maybe just maybe they'll get a surprise when our mute buttons malfunction and we keep talking. "They want to shrink the federal government down to the size they can drown in a bathtub," we say. "If something is dirty they call it clean, if it's costing us more, they say it's saving us. This administration is about to start another four years of one opposite day after another."

    Hasn't Karl Rove taught us anything? It doesn't matter how big the lie or how ridiculous the excuse, if everybody's in lockstep the media swallows it whole and spoonfeeds it to the lemmin,er, masses.

    So given that you can say anything you want as long as you're speaking with one voice, how about the truth? Pick a new piece of the frame every week and pound on it.

    Please, democrats at the microphones, I implore you. Use your words, raise your voices, speak the truth. I'm afraid anything less just stokes the flames whose fuel is our very democracy.

  •  We need specifics (none)
    This could work, we just need to figure out the exact wording of the bill, set parameters and guidelines for the random computing (like establish a nonpartisan commission that approves the results from the computer).

    We should introduce it in all fifty states at once, and what's more, we should get the most agressively liberal legislators in each state to sponsor it... people who will rail against any opposition as betraying the principles of democracy.

    Hold press conferences nationwide at 9:11 am on the set date.

  •  I'm not for gerrymandering (none)
    But there are a lot of variables that go into carving districts, namely the area's economic interests, ethnic population, income level, etc.

    DON'T BLAME ME; I VOTED FOR CLARK

    by DWCG on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 01:11:29 PM PST

    •  Good point (none)
      Makes more sense to district voters according to commonality of interests, even across party lines, than to gerrymander according to party registration.  Computer models don't take such variables into consideration.
  •  It's... (none)
    ...treacherous, Machiavellian, cunning, and cold-blooded; just like something Rove would do.

    I LOVE it!

    "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

    by Subterranean on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 02:38:20 PM PST

  •  Poorly thought out. (none)
    Your use of the notion that a computer program can be unbiased is laughable.  The phrasing, "This state shall use such-and-such nonbiased computer program for districting of congressional seats and senate seats." demonstrates a lack of understanding for how computers (or computer programs) work.
    Choosing a particular computer program is equivalent to choosing a particular districting plan.  It's quite easy to program a computer to generate districts using some rather sensible-sounding metrics to generate maps that are electorally less 'fair' than the current ones.
    More, important, however, is that this alleged solution completely fails to adress the fundemental issue that the guidelines for creating voting districts are insufficient because they allow for the creation of bizarre voting districts.  Moving these guidelines into a computer program would only provide a framework for formalizing this missing precision, but I cannot say that having a government contractor provide an arbitrary algorthim for creating voting districs is a good idea.

    To give you an idea of how hard it is to create a computer program to solve the problem of redistricting fairly, imagine, for now, a very simple example.  We have a (roughly) circular state which contains a (roughly) constant population density - where should the program draw it's lines?  Because the situation is (more or less) symetrical, you're going to have to make an arbitrary descision, however, descisions like this can create more, or less, favorable voting districs for candidates.

  •  nice work josh (none)
    it's a trick, but not a trick, because it's important and amounts to something.
  •  It would take... (none)
    a Constitutional amendment, in all likelihood.

    I don't believe in unilateral disarmament. If we're dropping our weapons, we ought to ban them from using theirs at the same time.

    Outside the box solutions at low, low prices! http://jayshark.blogspot.com

    by Jonathan4Dean on Fri Dec 17, 2004 at 07:01:19 PM PST

  •  Another idea along similar lines (none)
    At the start of the new session of Congress, the Democrats must lay down the gauntlet and show they will no longer play dead, as Tom "the Hammer" DeLay's storm troopers run them over.

    The Democrats should establish once and for all that in the future, they will act as the "loyal opposition." And their first loyalty will be to serve the public trust.

    The Congressional Democrats are honor bound to champion the interests of the voters who elected them, as well as the 57 million citizens who voted for a Democratic victory in November.

    The Bush Administration, the Republican leaders, and the nation should be reminded that the Founding Fathers did not create a "winner take all" government. Quite the contrary.

    The Bill of Rights and the separation of powers are core constitutional constructs created to protect minority interests and those hallmarks of American democracy are what have kept this country strong and free for over 200 years.

    As "loyal" and responsible leaders, the Democrats should file a Congressional Rules change the first day of the new term. The rule would guarantee that in the future no bill can be passed in either house that the members have not been able to review for a reasonable period of time.

    To show how serious the issue is, the Democrats should demand immediate adoption of the rule change and announce every Democrat in Congress will boycott any future floor vote on legislation whose final language has not been available for public review for 15 days at least.

    The Democrats can agree that they are partially responsible for flawed bills that became law over the past few years when the Republicans forced them to vote blind.

    There is no question that the Patriot Act, the Senior Prescription law and numerous Budget Bills were deeply flawed and should have never become law they way they did.

    If the Republican leadership turns aside the rule change and use their majorities in both houses to pass bills without Democratic votes and to enact laws that have not been subjected to a timely and careful review; that is their prerogative.  

    And if President Bush chooses to sign such legislation into law, that is also his right.

    Time would tell if the American public approves of such an approach to governance. The Democrat party should make clear that it doesn't.

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