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Bush's War

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Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:40:38 AM PST

So, who is to blame for all the deaths in Iraq? Let's mull this one over a bit, shall we?

Bush claims Saddam is a threat. Bush claims Saddam has WMDs. Bush claims Saddam has ties to Al Qaida. Bush and his administration promote questionable intelligence that supports their preconceptions and prejudices, and reject that which counters it.

Bush puts Rummy in charge of the war. Rummy fires general who says "we need more troops". Rummy says we can do more with less. Rummy says "lighter is better than armored". Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld say we'll be met with flower petals. They say the war will be entirely paid for by oil revenues. They say the reconstruction will be paid for entirely by oil revenues.

Bush says he's giving diplomacy a chance, but he's giving the world a middle finger. Powell says he's showing the Security Council evidence of Saddam's duplicity, but he shows them pictures of warehouses. Bush claims a coalition of the willing, that's really a coalition of the billing -- a mish-mash of third-world nations with token contributions. Only England offers tangible support.

Bush sends the troops into battle, claiming he had no choice. But Saddam had caved on every Bush demand (inspectors were allowed back in, his long-range missiles were being destroyed).

No WMDs are found. No ties with Al Qaida are found. No military capable of threatening Iraq's neighbors is found. Saddam's army collapses quickly and the country's defenders retreat into "insurgency" mode.

Bush declares mission accomplished. Bush taunts the insurgency. The insurgency kills our men and women. The commanders on the ground scream for more troops. They scream for armor. They scream for protected mess halls. Those screams fall on deaf ears.

More soldiers are killed. 1,320 Americans, 74 Britons, seven Bulgarians, one Dane, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Hungarian, 19 Italians, one Latvian, 16 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and nine Ukrainians. The wounded number in the five figures.

Nevermind the innocent Iraqis who have been "liberated" to death. And while we scream about Saddam's torture chambers, we create new ones of our own.

So thousands die, for a war built on false justifications, managed poorly, with underequipped, undermanned, and under-armored forces. And to add insult to injury, we've had to pay for this mess, to the tune of $200 billion.

So who sent our troops into Iraq on false pretenses? Who sent them in unarmored? Who refused to provide enough troops to stabilize the country effectively? Who taunted the Iraqi opposition with "bring 'em on"? Who approved the American-branded torture chambers? Who has rewarded the secretary of defense who has negligently ignored the armor shortage in Iraq?

And who keeps them there as they continue to die?

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  •  I know! I know! (4.00 / 2)

    who is to blame for all the deaths in Iraq?

    The ____ terrorists.  

    Print this out and make copies for your convenience.  

  •  the real question (none / 0)

    when does the American public turn against this war?

    was yesterday enough? or will it take another Beirut?

    •  Excellent question (4.00 / 2)

      My guess is that because of the high "delusion quotient" in the American public currently, it will take a lot more than one or two bad incidents.  Anything less than an all-out debacle (thousands of deaths in a single incident or a fairly short time span) won't result in strongly anti-war feeling across the board.

      Yet another reason I am SO happy with my fellow 'murricans right now...

    •  The depends (4.00 / 2)

      If by the American public you mean all the people who live here, then half of us were against to begin with.

      If by the American public you mean the people who own everything, then they will turn against the war if and only if it begins to threaten their rule.

      If by the American public you mean the people who support the war enthusiastically, then the answer is never.  Cf. People who think the Viet Nam War was a noble cause.

      •  by "American public" (none / 0)

        ...I mean the same percentage of the American public whose disgust with Vietnam ended that war.

        What I meant to ask is, where is the tipping point here?

        •  Any historians... (none / 0)

          ...who can answer the question about when the tide changed in Vietnam?

          It seems to me that an awful lot more happened in the 60's as far as anti-war activism than has happened in Iraq. Do we have to go through all that again?

          •  Not a historian (none / 0)

            but a history buff, I remember reading it was Walter Cronkite's CBS broadcast in 1968 (?) that has been cited as the "benchmark." Prior to 1968, a big majority (like 60 percent) favored involvement in Vietnam, within a year the tide reversed 40-60. I was a soph h.s. punk at the time.
            •  I think you are correct. (none / 1)

              That squares with the memory of this 68 year old.  Cronkite's opinion made people think as did the disastrous Tet offensive. Then Nixon said he had a secret plan to get us out of Vietnam.  The war's popularity declined sharply along with Nixon's.
            •  It was Tet (none / 1)

              in my opinion, that convinced people like Cronkite and LBJ that we weren't going to win this war. But it was only because there was growing (although still insufficient) opposition to the war (and its draft) that they made the connection: "Casualties x Protests = Rebellion".

              In his broadcast Cronkite said:

              We have been too often disappointed by the optimism of the American leaders, both in Vietnam and Washington, to have faith any longer in the silver linings they find in the darkest clouds. They may be right, that Hanoi's winter-spring offensive has been forced by the Communist realization that they could not win the longer war of attrition, and that the Communists hope that any success in the offensive will improve their position for eventual negotiations. It would improve their position, and it would also require our realization, that we should have had all along, that any negotiations must be that -- negotiations, not the dictation of peace terms. For it seems now more certain than ever that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate.

              Political Compass -10.00,-9.13

              You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...

              by imagine on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:40:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oops, got the link wrong (none / 1)

                The correct link for the quote is this one

                Political Compass -10.00,-9.13

                You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...

                by imagine on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:42:24 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Beware of analogies (none / 0)

                Tet was indeed the tipping point in Vietnam but the pullout didn't happen for another five years or so.  The interim strategy was "Vietnamization" which is essentially equivalent to the idea that we need to train thousands of Iraqi troops and policemen.  Didn't work then.  Now...not so sure.

                The one HUGE difference between now and then is that in Vietnam we were propping up a corrupt, incompetent South Vietnamese government.  In Iraq, the corrupt (and spectacularly brutal) Iraqi government is already gone.  The new one hasn't had time to piss off the people yet.  But one thing is for certain: a pullout is not in the cards in the forseeable future.

                One possibility is that we define victory down to the point that any semi-elected strongman will enable us to declare victory and get out.  Iraq-as-Egypt.  This of course would mean that the whole exercise will have accomplished absolutely nothing.

                The second possibility is that Iraq becomes Lebanon.  Squabbling factions tear the country apart into ethnic zones that have only a thin patina of common identity.

                The best case scenario is that the elections get Iraqis more engaged in the political process to the point where support for the insurgency starts to dry up.  Not going to happen soon, but it could happen eventually.

                Long before Iraq moves off the American agenda, I predict it will destroy the current Republican hegemony.  Ongoing war, more casualties, incompetent management.  Sooner or later, the American people will start to apportion blame.  

                But to take advantage of this catastrophe, Democrats need to be more than "anti-war".  Screaming about how ill-conceived the whole thing was accomplishes nothing.

                •  The Past Election Gives Bush Political Capital (none / 0)

                  It takes away from the Democrats the burden of Kerry's: the putitive obligation of having an concrete alternative plan.
                  Long before Iraq moves off the American agenda, I predict it will destroy the current Republican hegemony.  Ongoing war, more casualties, incompetent management.  Sooner or later, the American people will start to apportion blame.
                  This will come to pass, and it will be our task to merely tell the truth as we have always understood and have been able to document: that this Iraqi adventure was never anything other than an unnecessary, unprovoked, and under-planned war. So, when you say,
                  . . .to take advantage of this catastrophe, Democrats need to be more than "anti-war".  Screaming about how ill-conceived the whole thing was accomplishes nothing.
                  I have to disagree with you. Telling the truth - and sticking to it - eventually accomphishes everything. As a matter of factr, nothing can be accomplished without truth.

                  I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks in Sozadee CA.

                  by The Messenger on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:18:19 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  It might take a draft (none / 0)

      The draft was what fueled the anti-war protests during Viet Nam.  Once Nixon pulled that plug, the protests faded away, mostly.

      I am not advocating a draft, of course.  If we have to conscript the unwilling to fight our wars, then screw the whole thing, I say.

      OTOH, last Saturday I joined Women in Black and was amazed at the positive response from so many passersby.  

      Unscrewing the inscrutable since 1965

      by rhubarb on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 01:48:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  change (none / 0)

    "Who has rewarded the secretary of state" to "Secretary of Defense".

    To answer your question, the blame goes to The Commander in Chief.



    The folded coffin flag is nothing but a receipt from the Masters of War to the pawns in their game.

    by BOHICA on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:35:31 AM PST

  •  Bush, Cheney, Big Business & (none / 1)

    FOX News.

    Not one dime, not one call, not one knock if Lieberman gets his way.

    by Chamonix on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:35:55 AM PST

    •  Only for 49% (none / 0)

      of the population.  Probably a similar number that held LBJ, McNamara, Nixon and Westmoreland responsible for Vietnam.  (Did we even know who was Nixon's SoD, much less hold him accountable?  Melvin Laird?)  The majority held the commie loving, hippie peaceniks, "niggers" and Jews to blame for "losing" Vietnam.  This time the 49% will blame it on B/C, Rummy, the NeoCons and MIC.  The majority will blame it on the terrorist (OBL)loving, anti-Christian, Bush-hating liberals, but Rummy will be tossed out as a scapegoat by B/C to demonstrate to the "mushy middle" that B/C are good managers and hold their underlings to high standards.  History is in their favor, not ours.  

      "Dulled conscience, irresponsibility, and ruthless self-interest already reappear. Such symptoms of prosperity may become portents of disaster!" FDR - 1937

      by Marie on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:32:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, neglected to (none / 0)

        include gays and lesbians and all those who support same-sex marriage as another group that plays a major role in undermining the courage and moral clarity of our troops and the nation according to the 59 million Morons for Bush.

        "Dulled conscience, irresponsibility, and ruthless self-interest already reappear. Such symptoms of prosperity may become portents of disaster!" FDR - 1937

        by Marie on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:38:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Correction (none / 0)

    In the second to last graph, I believe you mean the secretary of defense.
  •  Excellent recap of events (none / 0)

    In this age of streamlining messages, etc, this goes right to the heart.  The only thing missing was the "lying" to the citizens part.

    "The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind". William Blake

    by egarratt on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:36:45 AM PST

  •  well, gosh (none / 0)

    sent you put it THAT way..... actually, what continues to amaze me is the belief that the war ISN'T going the way Bush et al want it to. It's not a question of the evidence not adding up, it's a question of whether anyone???? wants to do something about it.
  •  Let us not forget that... (none / 0)

    Tens of thousands of Iraqis have died and tens of thousands more will carry the scars of this illegal occupation to their graves.

    This is being done for the cause of freedom and democracy? Please.

    There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

    by timerigger on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:38:31 AM PST

  •  for answer, see below (none / 0)

    W
  •  You forgot (none / 0)

    Bush claims Saddam tortures and murders his fellow Iraqi's.

    The irony of it all.

  •  Kos, you sound angry. (none / 0)

    Don't you know that Liberty is on the march?  Democracy isn't easy, and it isn't cheap.

    Things are going fine.  Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

  •  Sacrificed for ? (none / 1)

    The death toll would be a noble sacrifice, if there was a plausible end result worth sacrificing for.

    Instead, our best case scenario seems to be facilitating the election of a pro-Iranian Islamic Revolution party, as Sen. Lugar pointed out this weekend on MTP.

    And our 1300+ and counting fatalities, and thousands of soldiers maimed for life, for this end leaving us probably in political worse shape in the Mideast than before?

    More on my diary (sorry for the shameless plug).

  •  You missed a few questions. (4.00 / 5)

    Who ordered the Iraqi army disbanded, immediately creating 600,000 unemployed, angry armed men?

    Who ignored the National Security estimate which predicted what has happened exactly?

    Who ignored the State Department's 2,500 page proposal for handled to handle post-hositlity Iraq, which if its suggestions had been followed would have avoided much of this?

    Who trusted Chalabi, an obvious egomaniac and convicted felon?

    Who gave no-bid contracts to Halliburton which then proceeded to lose 1/3 of equipment belonging to teh U.S. and has not been held accountable?

    Who criticized Kerry for bad mouthing our Iraqi allies and then has gone ahead and criticized the Iraqi troops?

    A final note:  This administration is calling those who are fighting us terrorists and insurgents.  And I agree they are not "good" people, what with targeting Iraqi civilians as well as our troops.  But in Afghanistan when Russia was there, they were called resistant fighters by us.

    I guess you can only defend your own country and be considered honorable if you are defending against someone we don't like already.

    •  What is? (none / 0)

      If another country invaded our country and we fought back, would wevbe insurgents and terrorists?

      I do not know what weapons World War III will be fought with. World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -- Albert Einstein

      by elveta on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:53:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Amiri Baraka knows... (4.00 / 4)

      Your very eloquent comment sounds so much like Amiri Baraka's poem, Somebody Blew Up America, for which he was roundly and unfairly IMO criticized (and fired as New Jersey poet laureate).

      A taste:

      Who own the ocean  

      Who own the airplanes
           Who own the malls
           Who own  television
           Who own  radio  

      Who own what ain't even known to be owned
           Who own the owners that ain't the real owners  

      Who own the suburbs
           Who suck the cities
           Who make the laws  

      Who  made  Bush  president

      •  Loved the poem, but . . . (none / 1)

        Having an amatuer's fondness for poetry, I greatly enjoyed the linked piece.  However, it comes across as anti-semitic.  

        "Who know why Five Israelis was filming the explosion
           And cracking they sides at the notion"

        and

        "Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed
        Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers
           To stay home that day
        Why did Sharon stay away                    ?"

        jumped out at me.  I would like to point out that I am not a Zionist, nor Jewish, nor even particularly pro-Israel (I concede their right to exist as a nation, but not much beyond that) but blaming the Jews for 9/11?  Like they were behind it all?  That's fucked up, to use those poor people as a scapegoat _again_.

        Or maybe I'm just dense and Baraka was using an irony that I'm not seeing; I'm no literary expert--would be happy if someone could give me an alternate interpretation of those lines.

        •  Sorry to respond so late (none / 1)

          I'm not refuting you. It's a poem, and so it is what it is, if that's what you see, that's what it is to you.

          But when I read the entire poem, I not only can't come to that conclusion but feel anger towards those "critics" who blasted Baraka for anti-semitic phrases when the poem first came out.

          The poem also includes lines such as:

          Who put the Jews in ovens,
               and who helped them   do it
          Who said "America First"
                  and ok'd  the yellow  stars

          which, by the same reasoning, would have to qualify as "anti-anti-semitic," but of course didn't, because that didn't fit the political frame of the "critics."

          The poem also includes:

          Who do Tom Ass Clarence Work for
          Who doo doo come out the Colon's mouth
          Who know what kind of Skeeza is a Condoleeza

          but that hardly qualified the poem as racist, misogynistic or even scatological, because (a) those characteristics don't fit the political frames of the "critics" who jumped on the poet and, (b) they don't qualify as "criticism," using standard parameters of literary criticism.

          As a result, I tend to lump the "anti-Semitic" claims of the "critics" as intentionally disingenuous, that is, bullshit.

          I don't mean to include you among that group, again, what the poem says to you is what it is to you. But here's a caution: there are probably at least a dozen dKos participants who buy into at least some portion of the tinfoil theory of Zionist complicity in 9/11, and that certainly doesn't make dKos an anti-Semitic community.

          Thanks for the opportunity to express all that, it's the first chance I've had to think it all the way through.

          •  I, too, must apologize for responding late (none / 0)

            Work was/is a bitch today.  Anyway, I appreciate the thoughtful reply.  I think the reasons that the comments about Thomas, Powell, and Condeleeza didn't strike me as racist is because all three people have shirked their duties in demonstrable ways.  Thomas rejected the affirmative action that got him where he is today, Powell presented shaky intelligence to the UN, and Condi . . . well, the less said about her the better.

            The comments about the Jews, if they'd been limited to specific people, like the Sharon thing, that would've been fine with me, and I wouldn't have thought anything of it.  However, to espouse this crackpot theory and (seemingly, to me) to actually endorse it as viable is anti-semitic in my eyes.  

            And your mention of the dKos people who believe in this zany zionist theory, the point is well-taken.  No, I don't think that makes this community anti-semitic, however I DO believe it makes the members of the community who believe that nonsense anti-semitic.  I believe strongly in judging people as individuals, and I don't like painting whole groups with a broad brush (tempting as it may be, however, for me to name all Bush voters as misguided idiots).

            Addressing the conspiracy theory itself directly, I'd be willing to consider it--I don't shut my mind off to options.  I just haven't seen any convincing proof.  If someone were to show me something beyond "jews are evil, and this hearsay evidence about what happened on 9/11 is proof" I'd have to give it serious thought.

            Thanks again for the well-reasoned response, and I'm glad I could give you an outlet for what you'd been bottling up.  

    •  More irony (none / 0)

      "Who gave no-bid contracts to Halliburton which then proceeded to lose 1/3 of equipment belonging to teh U.S. and has not been held accountable" while charging a wounded soldier 310 bucks for equipment lost in battle...
    •  Just like a liberal to ignore the obvious (none / 0)

      benefit of this war, the new elected leader will be so much better than Saddam! He's much more pro-American and pro-democracy, that guy, the new leader guy, what's his name again, uh, uh, I'll have it here in a minute, it's on the tip of my tongue...

      Waaaaait a minute, who is the new leader going to be? Who did all these guys die to replace Saddam with? Well, no matter, he couldn't be worse, right, like a radical Islamic fundamentalist who hates America, right?

      Guess we'd better add that to your list of questions: who did all these guys die to make the new president of Iraq?  And why did we ever go to war not knowing who the new leader would be or if he'd be any better (from our point of view) than Saddam?

      No one expects the Spanish inquisition!

      by Joan in Seattle on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 06:58:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Immoral war (4.00 / 20)

    The date on the following suggests that this may not be new to some of you, but I just received it myself last night...
    -----------
    Dr. Robin Meyers
    Oklahoma University Peace Rally
    November 14, 2004

    As some of you know, I am minister of Mayflower Congregational Church in Oklahoma City, an Open and Affirming, Peace and Justice church in northwest Oklahoma City, and professor of Rhetoric at Oklahoma City University.

    But you would most likely have encountered me on the pages of the Oklahoma Gazette, where I have been a columnist for six years, and hold the record for the most number of angry letters to the editor.

    Tonight, I join ranks of those who are angry, because I have watched as the faith I love has been taken over by fundamentalists who claim to speak for Jesus, but whose actions are anything but Christian.

    We've heard a lot lately about so-called "moral values" as having swung the election to President Bush. Well, I'm a great believer in moral values, but we need to have a discussion, all over this country, about exactly what constitutes a moral value -- I mean what are we talking about?

    Because we don't get to make them up as we go along, especially not if we are people of faith. We have an inherited tradition of what is right and wrong, and moral is as moral does.

    Let me give you just a few of the reasons why I take issue with those in power who claim moral values are on their side:

    -- When you start a war on false pretenses, and then act as if your deceptions are justified because you are doing God's will, and that your
    critics are either unpatriotic or lacking in faith, there are some of us who have given our lives to teaching and preaching the faith who believe that this is not only not moral, but immoral.

    -- When you live in a country that has established international rules for waging a just war, build the United Nations on your own soil to enforce them, and then arrogantly break the very rules you set down for the rest of the world, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you claim that Jesus is the Lord of your life, and yet fail to acknowledge that your policies ignore his essential teaching, or turn them on their head (you know, Sermon on the Mount stuff like that we must never return violence for violence and that those who live by the sword will die by the sword), you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you act as if the lives of Iraqi civilians are not as important as the lives of American soldiers, and refuse to even count them, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you find a way to avoid combat in Vietnam, and then question the patriotism of someone who volunteered to fight, and came home a hero, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you ignore the fundamental teachings of the gospel, which says that the way the strong treat the weak is the ultimate ethical test, by giving tax breaks to the wealthiest among us so the strong will get stronger and the weak will get weaker, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you wink at the torture of prisoners, and deprive so-called "enemy combatants" of the rules of the Geneva convention, which your own country helped to establish and insists that other countries follow, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you claim that the world can be divided up into the good guys and the evil doers, slice up your own nation into those who are with you, or with the terrorists -- and then launch a war which enriches your own friends and seizes control of the oil to which we are addicted, instead of helping us to kick the habit, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you fail to veto a single spending bill, but ask us to pay for a war with no exit strategy and no end in sight, creating an enormous deficit that hangs like a great millstone around the necks of our children, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you cause most of the rest of the world to hate a country that was once the most loved country in the world, and act like it doesn't matter what others think of us, only what God thinks of you, you have done something immoral.

    -- When you use hatred of homosexuals as a wedge issue to turn out record numbers of evangelical voters, and use the Constitution as a tool of
    discrimination, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you favor the death penalty, and yet claim to be a follower of Jesus, who said an eye for an eye was the old way, not the way of the
    kingdom, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you dismantle countless environmental laws designed to protect the earth which is God's gift to us all, so that the corporations that bought you and paid for your favors will make higher profits while our children breathe dirty air and live in a toxic world, you have done something immoral. The earth belongs to the Lord, not Halliburton.

    -- When you claim that our God is bigger than their God, and that our killing is righteous, while theirs is evil, we have begun to resemble the enemy we claim to be fighting, and that is immoral. We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us.

    -- When you tell people that you intend to run and govern as a "compassionate conservative," using the word which is the essence of all
    religious faith-compassion, and then show no compassion for anyone who disagrees with you, and no patience with those who cry to you for help, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you talk about Jesus constantly, who was a healer of the sick, but do nothing to make sure that anyone who is sick can go to see a doctor, even if she doesn't have a penny in her pocket, you are doing something immoral.

    -- When you put judges on the bench who are racist, and will set women back a hundred years, and when you surround yourself with preachers who say gays ought to be killed, you are doing something immoral.

    I'm tired of people thinking that because I'm a Christian, I must be a supporter of President Bush, or that because I favor civil rights and gay rights I must not be a person of faith.
    I'm tired of people saying that I can't support the troops but oppose the war -- I heard that when I was your age, when the Vietnam war was raging. We knew that that war was wrong, and you know that this war is wrong--the only question is how many people are going to die before these make-believe Christians are removed from power?

    This country is bankrupt. The war is morally bankrupt. The claim of this administration to be Christian is bankrupt. And the only people who can turn things around are people like you--young people who are just beginning to wake up to what is happening to them. It's your country to take back. It's your faith to take back. It's your future to take back.

    Don't be afraid to speak out. Don't back down when your friends begin to tell you that the cause is righteous and that the flag should be wrapped around the cross, while the rest of us keep our mouths shut. Real Christians take
    chances for peace. So do real Jews, and real Muslims, and real Hindus, and real Buddhists--so do all the faith traditions of the world at their heart believe one thing: life is precious. Every human being is precious. Arrogance is the opposite of faith. Greed is the opposite of charity. And believing that one has never made a mistake is the mark of a deluded man, not a man of faith.

    And war -- war is the greatest failure of the human race -- and thus the greatest failure of faith.

    There's an old rock and roll song, whose lyrics say it all: War, what is it good for? And what is the dream of the prophets? That we should study war no more, that we should beat our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks. Who would Jesus bomb, indeed? How many wars does it take to know that too many people have died? What if they gave a war and nobody came? May be one day we will find out.

    Time to march again my friends. Time to commit acts of civil disobedience. Time to sing, and to pray, and refuse to participate in the madness. My
    generation finally stopped a tragic war. You can too!

  •  and why (none / 0)

    is today the first time all networks are breathlessly covering the wounding being unloaded from planes to be taken the Ramstuhl Air force Base Hospital.  They have never allowed that before.

    My only guess would be a sudden switch from "all is good" to demanding that these soldiers not die in vein to keep up the patriotic fever.  Because with his poll numbers, and now the bombing, they are going to have to pull the patriotic string on America the puppet big time.  Can't get those sad pictures out of my mind.  

    And what is up with the memorial at the Viet Nam Veterans Memorial with letters supporting the troops?  Is that a planned event or a republican media stunt?  I am suspicious of all events nowadays.  Hopefully it is an honest expression of caring for the troops.

  •  You don't get it! (4.00 / 5)

    We have to win this war so we can win Vietnam!

    If we screw this one up, too, then it means something's wrong with us!

    •  Bingo! (none / 1)

      This is one of the most bizarre things about the right wing.  They've got this alternate history in which Vietnam was a just war that the US could, should, would have won if only "traitors" like Jane Fonda and John Kerry hadn't "weakened our resolve" by protesting.  Since then, they've had thirty years of the Rambo reaction: this time, do we get to win?

      So, when the reality-based community says, "This is another Vietnam," their reaction is more or less, "Great!  This time we get to win!"

      "A time comes when silence is betrayal." MLK ...... The Green Knight

      by greenknight on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:47:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Which was a replay of Korea (none / 0)

        and is coming up next on the Rethug hit parade
        •  Really? (none / 0)

          I thought Korea was ignored because it was a victory. (We all know how much satisfaction rightists gain from victory.) I guess you could see it as part of the line though; they certainly wanted Vietnam to go as well as or better than Korea.  Certainly not so much worse.

          I always thought Vietnam was baby-boomers' chance to be just like Daddy in WWII.  The Gulf was X generation's chance to be just like Daddy in Nam and Granddaddy.  Now Gulf War II is the chance for the skaterats and spoiled brats of Generation Y to die in vain just like their old man.

          •  My dad was a Korea vet (none / 0)

            and so we weren't allowed to talk about it when I was a kid. Big, dark secret. All respect to Korea vets (and my late father), but we lost our ass. Officially, North Korea is still at war with South Korea. The ceasefire was negotiated, not "surrendered." We are South Korea's best ally and biggest sugar daddy, so technically we're still liable, and replaying the game film (probably with nukes this time) is way high on the Rethug list.
        •  Korea Was a Just War (none / 0)

          It was a real domino. STalin was testing the West. Truman passed the test. It was the Democrats' proudest hour in the cold war. (Some even blame them for starting the cold war.)

          I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks in Sozadee CA.

          by The Messenger on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 06:55:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is... (none / 0)

        ...strength.

        What are you saying!?! America and its government WAS/IS/WILL NEVER BE WRONG. Ever. And anyone who thinks otherwise is a nasty, wicked, evil traitor who should be executed immediately. In fact, all thinking for oneself should be banned as it is un-American and treasonous.

        We're surrounded by people (/nutjobs) who honestly believe this. And they are the ones in power. And it scares the living sh*t out of me.

        (Save us Orwell!)

        It doesn't take a "brain genius" to figure it out.

        by nemesmith on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:02:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Somewhere along the line (none / 0)

          our country turned into the United Snakes of Generica. The United Snakes are now trying to set up an Oil-garchy in Iraq. If it was a righteous struggle for democracy, the U.S. wouldn't be in this hellish quagmire. Capitalism does not equal democracy.
          •  Yup (none / 0)

            Can you imagine putting a hand over your heart for this pledge?

            "I pledge oillegience to the fuel of the United States of Automobiles, and to the consumtion for which it stands, one highway, unto God, with liberty and justice for a few."

            Ugh. This is an oil war. Is this what America has become? How did we let it come to this?

        •  Winning. (none / 0)

          If you get kicked in the face and then go pick a fight with a twelve-year-old, can you really say you've won?

          Reagan ran from Lebanon and taught millions that terrorism works.  He then declared victory over a Caribbean rock.  He was truly a character study in courage.

          •  Hey, remember.... (none / 0)

            Panama!!!
            Isn't that the Neo-Con rally cry? The Bushies always get the people who have the dirt on their family, er, except for the Saudi's, since the Saudi's give them money.

            The sleep of reason produces monsters.

            by Alumbrados on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 03:03:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  blood on his hands (none / 0)

    I was thinking about this same thing last nite as I heard the mess hall story on NPR. Right before Bush came on to express his condolonces, I said outloud to those riding with me in the car: "you (Bush) got us into this mess and you have some serious blood on your hands." I don't know how the Bush family is going to be able to celebrate Christmas. But I guess they have some pretty sophisticated cognitive systems built up to justify all the bloodshed and grief they are causing this holiday season. Ho ho ho...Merry Christmas :|
    •  On your hands (none / 1)

      You pay taxes, you have funded this war.  Blood money comes from all of us.

      "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

      by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:58:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Speaking out. (none / 0)

        I think that those who speak out publicly against the war are relieved of guilt.  Bush may have strong defenses built up against feeling that guilt now, but eventually, the pain will erupt in some way.    
        •  But (none / 0)

          We still have US passports...

          "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

          by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:07:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  question (none / 0)

            I'm not sure I really follow your reasoning.  It seems that you're trying to say that all of us Americans are equally complicit in the Iraqi Quagmire.  If that's what you're trying to say, I'd have to disagree.  We fought hard, we protested the war when it was proposed.  Nobody listened.  We fought to get an antiwar candidate on the opposition ticket.  Nobody listened.  We then at least tried to get Bush, the architect of the mess, unelected.  Nobody listened.

            Many people here fought hard (most harder than me--I'm sorry to say I wish I'd done more) to stop this mess, and to load the onus of the war on all of them, as if they were all Dubya's pioneers, isn't fair.

            Nobody listened :(

    •  What makes you think (none / 0)

      that these people worry about anything? They're feudalists and do not spend any thoughts on the serfs.
    •  How can they celebrate? (none / 0)

      you have to have a conscience to feel bad about things...

      The God I know says no to H8...

      by crkrjx on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:41:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Liars and War Criminals, (none / 0)

    All.

    Resist much, obey little. ~~Edward Abbey, via Walt Whitman

    by willyr on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:41:26 AM PST

  •  "It's all Clinton's fault" (none / 0)

    When in doubt, haul out the last-refuge-of-scoundrels argument.

    "You can never guarantee victory, but you can guarantee defeat."--Hall of Fame baseball writer Leonard Koppett.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:41:40 AM PST

  •  It's a pity none of this is an impeachable offense (none / 0)

    and Bush can claim he had no knowledge of anything his administration did which might be considered an impeachable offense. This is, of course, true, because the man has no knowledge of anything. It's a strange country that considers ignorance to be a desirable trait in a leader.

    I own half a house- it's a duo.

    by EsnRedshirt on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:42:18 AM PST

    •  What are the prospects for impeachment? (none / 0)

      Are there any prospects for impeaching Bush?  Even if it wasn't over Iraq, what are the most likely potential scandals that could sink him?  Election fraud and the Plame case come to mind, if sufficient evidence were to be discovered, but are there any others?

      History will undoubtedly remember Bush as the worst president ever, but still, it'd be nice to end his second term early.

    •  Total side-switching (none / 0)

      No, the real bizarreness is how people switched sides. The Republicans claimed that Clinton should be impeached because a President is a role model who should have more integrity and honesty than the common man, and the democrats argued that he was human.

      Now, we got Bush. When he bumbles, Republicans say it's because he's human. People who despised Clinton are putting up with Bush, though he's not appearing to be the moral pedestal this time. Democrats fault him for not being competent.

      Did I miss the changeover when the world went outa whack?

      •  Distorted ethics in service of self-interest (none / 0)

        I think part of the explanation is that the ethical arguments aren't the real reason why people choose one side or another. Rather, the ethical arguments are manufactured as a way to justify "here's why our side is better than their side."

        The word "better", in this context, is a code word for "aligned with your self-interest."  When given a choice between ethical behavior and behavior that one believes (either correctly or incorrectly) will advance one's own interests, it becomes very tempting to look for ways to bend the ethical arguments, so as to make the self-interested behavior seem ethical. Karl Rove, for example, is an evil genius at this.

        In my view, heroism involves a combination of being principled enough to behave ethically even when that behavior doesn't serve one's self-interest, and perceptive enough to understand what is really ethical.

  •  The Terrorists... (none / 0)

    the Saddam Loyalists. They must be to blame. Those enemies of freedom who, while espousing hatred, fight to prevent a free and peaceful Iraq from becoming a reality. They wish to derail the tranistion to democracy. It's all their fault.

    Thank you to Scott McClellan (via Liberation Learning) for setting me straight onthis.

    "I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war." -9.75, -8.41

    by RonV on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:43:38 AM PST

  •  And I wonder (4.00 / 3)

    whatever happened to the 380 tons of explosives that went missing... did that investigation come to a screaming halt too?  Are they using that stuff we lost under Bush's watch to kill our guys...

    The God I know says no to H8...

    by crkrjx on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:43:39 AM PST

    •  Sing along (none / 1)

      760,000 pounds of missing explosives in Iraq,
      760,000 pounds!
      You take a pound, pass it around -
      759,999 pounds of missing explosives in Iraq!
      ..
      759,999 pounds of missing explosives in Iraq,
      759,999 pounds....

      (repeat until you are drafted)

  •  Kos, why do you hate America? (none / 0)

    </tasteless attempt at irony>
  •  Give me a break... (4.00 / 2)

    Don't you think it's mildly juvenile to exonerate insurgents? I hate this war too, but it seems to me that completely ignoring the fact that there are bad people using innocent Iraqis as human shields is slightly silly. If you don't make a distinction between the insurgents and the American occupying force, then have we forgotten the former Iraqi oppression? Bush lacks moral authority and put us in a horridly organized war. However, no one should be pulling out now. Now we need to make sure it wasn't for naught.
    •  F**k it. (4.00 / 2)

      Let's pull the hell out of there and mind our own f**king business.
    •  Who exonerated the insurgents? (4.00 / 2)

      I read about taunting them, and how insurgents are killing soldiers, but little praise of them.

      As for staying or pulling out--it's a toss-up.  I thought that we needed to change tactics.  But now I have to wonder which is worse--Bush's continuing handling of Iraq or outright withdrawal and collapse?

      Either way, the lunatics will have their way.  Bush will not do this job well.

      •  Here's a good article (none / 0)

        written by someone who lives there.

        Link

        How bad would it be for us to leave and let them figure it out for themselves? The auther of the article, Abu Khaleel, seems to hint that they'd be fine.

        Unfortunately this has more to do with controling the flow of oil then spreading democracy as is evidenced by our enduring bases.

        Suddenly it's Christmas The longest holiday. When they say 'Season's Greetings, They mean just what they say It's a season, it's a marathon Retail eternity

        by Pescadero Bill on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 11:51:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Like Algeria? (none / 0)

          Algeria and Lebanon are relatively ok now that the foreign invaders are gone. Algeria had some rough stuff to go through afterwards, but the vast vast majority of the people are immensely happy that the French are out. They despise the French far worse than the GOP.

          I think Iraq is gonna wind up with the same ending as the Battle of Algiers. You have to see that film to understand Iraq a little better.

    •  "All for naught" (4.00 / 3)

      So what do you want to gain out of this, anyway?

      Define what you mean by not "naught"

      "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

      by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:54:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There wouldn't (none / 0)

      ...be an insurgency if we weren't there trying to force the country into a mold that it doesn't want to fit into.  It's a nasty question, but if the US were invaded by a vastly superior force, would we hesitate to fight dirty to get them to leave?  I know I wouldn't.

      Anyway, when you've got no moral authority to be there, staying does no good.

      "A time comes when silence is betrayal." MLK ...... The Green Knight

      by greenknight on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:54:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It all comes down to this... (3.50 / 4)

        If Bush were leader of America in exile, if we were occupied and conquered--would we use terrorism?

        It might not be morally right, but you know Americans would.  Bush would show Arafat a thing or two about kleptocracy and mayhem (or perhaps Rove would do so for him).

        We would commit 9/11s and more if we were powerless.  Would it be wrong?  Yes.  But certain acts of evil are inevitable when you're dealing with humans put in certain situations.  Hell, we weren't even oppressed and look how we treated British soldiers.  We pelted them with rocks; they shot us and we mourned.  Now when we read about Palestinians chucking rocks, we laugh and hope they got capped.

        •  And if... (none / 1)

          ... the US were to be attacked and occupied by another country even I, rock-ribbed anti-war anti-gun liberal would pick up a gun and go fight.

          Even if I disliked the president intensely.

          It's something called patriotism, something that we cheer loudly in our own country but can't abide in another.

          •  You're damn right. (none / 0)

            If Manhattan--hell, if Alaska--was invaded, I would probably enlist.  Family must be considered, but I think I'd have to help.

            Even with Bush as president, I'd do it.

            But then, I never support a war I'm not personally willing to fight.  To do otherwise is wrong, in my opinion.

            •  This is where the pro-war types (none / 0)

              are getting all confused.

              They see 9/11 as an attack on America which they are right in doing. But they see the attackers not as just a small group of fanatics operating clandestinly from a few places in the world, but as an entire segment of the Middle East that must be fought and destroyed (as if there's a finite number of them, or they'll just surrender some day).

              What they don't get is that our pressence and the violence we perpetrate is inspiring more and more moderate Muslims to take up the cause.

              I saw this article in a British paper describing how they're organizing a regular army of wantabe martyrs in Iran -- both to go and fight in Iraq and/or if we invade Iran.

              Just what the fuck is going on here?

              Suddenly it's Christmas The longest holiday. When they say 'Season's Greetings, They mean just what they say It's a season, it's a marathon Retail eternity

              by Pescadero Bill on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:29:37 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Sixties Flashback (none / 1)

      ". . . [N]o one should be pulling out now. Now we need to make sure it wasn't for naught."

      Thus did tens of thousands of young Americans go to their deaths in Vietnam, all to ensure that the kids who died just before they did didn't die in vain - which they all did anyway.

      Not to mention the million plus Vietnamese on all sides who died too.

      Amen

      In wartime, the first corpse is used to justify the second,
      They're used to justify the third and fourth,
      Which are used to justify 5-8,
      Then those eight used to justify 9-16,
      On and on, etc., ad nauseum,

      All of them used to sanctify
      The struggle that killed them.
      As it ever was and always will be,
      War without end,
      More and more senseless deaths,
      To a mantra of

      "We cannot allow the sacrifice made by those already dead to be in vain!"

      Words generally spoken by people
      Whose loved ones are far from danger.

      Stand sometime near a military cemetery,
      Concentrate on ignoring the sounds of life that stir around you,
      The wind-rustled branches, the leaves scuttering along the
      paths, the hum of traffic from the nearby highway,
      You'll hear the message from those countless graves:  "Don't do it!"

      "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

      "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

      by JJB on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:14:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good poem -- is it yours? (none / 0)

        Good poem!  Is it yours?  Since you put it in a quotation box, I'm unsure whether you're quoting someone or whether you're just setting it off from the rest of your message.
    •  MSM gave the name to the group that fights us (none / 0)

      They call them insurgents and terrorists... I would definitely fight for my country if some foreign invaders came here... and I would be called some name like insurgent, or maybe like the native Americans, I would be called a savage.  

      The Iraqi insurgency is fighting for its country... they use asymmetrical warfare because they don't have the means for conventional warfare whatever the hell that may be these days...

      I don't like the idea that I have a loved one over there who could be killed by these insurgents...but we should never have been there and I think it would be dumb to think they wouldn't fight to keep us from staying...

      The God I know says no to H8...

      by crkrjx on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:13:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  In other words.... (none / 0)

      if a foreign power would invade Cincinnati, you would call the brave Ohians (is that a word?)resisting the invasion "insurgents"?
    •  "insurgents" (none / 0)

      I tend to believe this term is just a hair breadth's less disingenuous than "terrorist."  BushCo has to have a term to show that the Iraqis who physically oppose them in Iraq are the exception, not the rule.  Hence, it's the terrorists, it's the insurgents.  

      How about it's the Iraqi people fighting against the US occupation?  Fer chrissakes, didn't we allow one of the most unpopular factions within the country to act as our puppets?  Maybe we didn't have this kind of opposition when we first got there, but we have it now.

    •  "insurgents" (none / 0)

      I tend to believe this term is just a hair breadth's less disingenuous than "terrorist."  BushCo has to have a term to show that the Iraqis who physically oppose them in Iraq are the exception, not the rule.  Hence, it's the terrorists, it's the insurgents.  

      How about it's the Iraqi people fighting against the US occupation?  Fer chrissakes, didn't we allow one of the most unpopular factions within the country to act as our puppets?  Maybe we didn't have this kind of opposition when we first got there, but we have it now.

  •  That's the who and the what; how about the why... (none / 0)

    Who sent them there, who keeps them there, all good questions.

    Equally interesting questions: who benefits from all this? For who's enrichment are all of these travesties and tragedies taking place?

    Here's a start:

    Halliburton, Bechtel, GE, Exxon, Shell, the Carlyle Group, even cell phone companies. Feel free to add more to the list.

    All excellent reasons, in the bizarro world that must be the chimperor's thinking, to sacrifice the lives and well being of so many.

    Another way to answer the why? Like the "Bush tax reform" that will make taxes "simpler and more fair" (according to the AP or Bush, I can't remember which; oh, wait a minute, they are one and the same"), like that, this is just another huge transfer of wealth from the American people's tax dollars to these companies.

    Republicans can't run a country. All they can run is a smear campaign. ~ GMT

    Vice harms the doer ~ Socrates

    by kdub on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:46:21 AM PST

    •  Oil consumption (none / 0)

      As long as you and I consume oil, we cannot only blame greedy oil corporations.  We are all to blame.

      If you drive a car, if you consume goods that are shipped by truck, if you heat your home, you too are to blame for this war.

      "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

      by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:53:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly, (none / 0)

        His goal, Cheney's goal (since at least 1973 or so), PNAC's goal; are all to protect and preserve the fossil fuel industry. As well as to keep world oil supplies more under US control than Chinese.

        We need an administration that is willing to let the Exxons, GEs and Fords of the world either  help create and adapt to a less fossil fuel based product and economy, or die like any obsolete industry. An administration that funds research into smart alternatives, not hydrogen sources fueled by fossil fuels (duh.)

        We need an administration that gives huge tax breaks for consumers who install solar energy in  their homes, buy hybrid cars, etc.  Right now it's hard and expensive to do those things. Make it easy. Because let's be realistic, not many people will go off and live outside of the mainstream culture. Make alternatives to oil the mainstream culture instead.

        Republicans can't run a country. All they can run is a smear campaign. ~ GMT

        Vice harms the doer ~ Socrates

        by kdub on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:10:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It starts at home (none / 0)

          Conserve electricity and other forms of fuel consumption. (we got rid of a car, for example).

          retrofit your house, work at home if at all possible

          Carpool, plan shopping so you aren't just going out to get one thing,

          Etc. etc.

          we need to change our own behavior first.

          "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

          by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:09:18 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  But hey, this war isn't what (none / 0)

    people cared about on Election Day. Those pickup truck drivers with Confederate flags in the back window that H. Dean was talking about decided that their "Judeo-Christian" values were under attack.
  •  I woke up this morning with exactly that (none / 0)

    on my mind, but without the question mark. We know exactly who is responsible for the deaths of these people who asked nobody for this war.

    This needs, if it's going to be addressed properly, to go to court. These deaths were caused because of an illegal war. The Iraqi deaths too.

    Today's Special: Chickenhawk, slow-baked in its mother's basement.

    by Earl on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:50:01 AM PST

  •  if you're wanting to blame someone (none / 0)

    also include the soldiers who volunteer for such a war.

    (this is an unpopular approach to take to the situation, and while there are financial reasons why kids decide to join the forces, financial reasons clearly created by republican economic policies as they -- heh heh -- trickle down to a neighborhood near you, the fact remains:  as long as they can stand up and say "this is an all volunteer army" -- and it ostensibly is, by at least the simplest of definitions -- that implies that the kids fighting this war DO NOT agree with us.  and they vote against us.  etc. etc.  i know this is an unpopular approach to take but people ask:  what's the tipping point?  well.  that's an easy question.  the draft.  there could be a draft.  extrapolate end games and there will be a draft.  and yet there isn't one.  not yet.  and there's not really any proof there will be one. -- our proof that there will be a draft is kind of like their proof social sec. is in crisis.... it'll have to happen one day.... etc. etc. etc.  i'm sure i've broken international statutes on parenthetical statements by now, but i said what i had so say.  no one gives a fuck cause, on a certain level, the kids love this war.)

    "i wanted to be the first kid on my block with a confirmed kill."
        -- private joker, full metal jacket.

  •  Bush's blame ends now (none / 0)

    Bush is responsible for the first 1320 american deaths.  But, I place the blame for any further deaths on the shoulders of the American electorate.
    •  Of which we are alll a part (none / 0)

      No matter how we voted.

      We cqannot pass the buck.  If Bush won't take responsibility, then the responsibility rests with you and me.

      We are better than that maggot at the top of the heap.

      "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

      by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:52:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's how I felt this morning. (none / 0)

      I had an irrational anger.  
      I hoped that I wouldn't bump into some of these Bush supporter's I work with today, because I believe I will express my anger toward them.  I know it's not thier fault, but dammit, I want someone within reach to know I'm fuckin' pissed today!

      Sorry, no, you can't have your country back. You broke it and can't be trusted with it anymore.

      by God loves goats on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 11:53:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Our War (none / 0)

    Those soldiers have US flags sewn on their uniforms.  We pay taxes.  We (well, sort-a) elected Bush.

    It is OUR war.

    We are the only ones who can stop it since Bush ain't gonna.  We must stop OUR war.

    When we travel abroad, we are all Americans, Blue State, Red State, that matters little to everyone else in the world.  It is OUR war.

    We can blame Bush if we want, we can blame our own inability to get our guy elected, but the blame rests with all of us.  

    If we believe in our democracy, then we are all responsible.

    "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

    by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:50:47 AM PST

    •  Collective guilt? (none / 0)

      The nation is sick, and I have a responsibility to help heal it.
      •  Yes (none / 0)

        And we start at home by reducing our dependence on ENERGY (oil, gas, electricity, etc.)

        If this war was indeed blood for oil, then we must stop thirsting for the oil.

        Reduce consumption and encourage the production of domestic, clean and green sources of energy.

        "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

        by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:11:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The only problem (none / 0)

          is that those of us who conserve are just allowing those who don't to continue to live in that wasteful manner even longer. I feel as if my own personal and professional conservation efforts are just subsidizing the worst of the energy hogs.

          We are dragged down by the most profligate users of energy, and they won't wake up to the coming energy crisis until it's already in full bloom. At that point, the wars will REALLY begin in earnest.

          •  I understand what you are saying (none / 0)

            And I suppose you are correct to a degree, but conservation is as much a selfless act (using less leaves more for others) as a selfish act (we pay less for stuff because we consume less AND we reduce trash and pollution that's out there).

            So get rid of that SUV goddammit!  Oh and ditch the cell phone too.  (do you really need it?)

            "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

            by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 12:39:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Something specific? (none / 0)

      Not disagreeing with you in the least, but do you have specific extra-political actions in mind? I'm an old sixties guy, myself, so I'm stuck in the box of big street demonstrations and such. What might be more effective, now?

      don't always believe what you think...

      by claude on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 11:31:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  my thing is conservation (none / 0)

        conserve energy, reduce consumption of everything.

        choose to purchase items produced locally (don't support big corporate greed hogs like Wal-Mart etc.)

        That's all.

        If we are on this blog, we likely are doing some of this now.  The more we streamline our lives, lessen our footprint, the better.

        "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

        by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 12:37:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Co-ops (none / 0)

          right with you on all that stuff, been living that since the sixties.  I'm big into educating people about co-ops.  Many people in rural ares, like me, get a lot of services from various co-ops, so the idea has universal credence.  I think it's a vastly under-utilised vehicle.

          don't always believe what you think...

          by claude on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 12:42:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Difficult Choices (none / 0)

    The most frustrating thing about this whole endeavor is that there is absolutely no right thing to do.  If we leave, the country in all likelihood falls into the abyss, with the open act being civil war and the finaly being the creation of hornets nest for terrorists that did not occupy the country prior to the war.  If we stay, we keeping feeding more and more of America's finest young men into the meat grinder. Either way, America's credibly, which took a significant amount of time to regain after Vietnam, is tarnished.

    While I am pretty sure this will never happen, I am beginning to think that the best case scenario is the partition of Iraq into three seperate soveriegn nations, including a Kurdish state in the north, a Sunni state in central Iraq, and a Shia state in the South and the East.  This I realize has its downfalls, most notably being the danger of excessive Iranian influence over the Shia state, and turkish opposition to the creation of a sovereign Kurdish land.  But, at this point, can anybody even imagine a quasi-elected government that would be viewed as legitimate by all three of these sects?

    •  The international order won't allow it. (none / 1)

      It's pretty much an open conspiracy.  No-one wants to deal with a state in Iraq, let alone three states.

      Let's take this moment to thank the British for drawing up this territory.  Ridiculous.

      I agree though; Iraq is not a united country.  But fragmentation might lead to even more sectarian and ethnic violence.  Who knows?  We can't do anything to decide how this will spin.

    •  Exit strategy (4.00 / 2)

      Truly, an Exit Strategy is incredibly difficult. The ripe cherry of oil wealth will be irresistable for any organized party with weapons. A three state solution, splitting Iraq into Kurdish, Shia and Sunni states may hold the most promise. Allowing a multinational peacekeeping force to protect the distinct states from invasion may be prudent. And dividing oil revenues so that they benefit all people (perhaps in an Alaska type model?) would hopefully inspire peace.

      But, I'm just a white guy sitting on the Left Coast at a keyboard.

      The true key to peace is regional self-determination. What do the people of the region want? Let them lead the way to peace.

      Skeptics will say "sure right, they are violent and on the verge of civil war". Indeed, and I hope that there are some brilliant people who understand Iraq much better than anyone in the US ready to step forward and present a solution based upon self-determination.

      We won! Now the work begins.
      (-8.00, -8.31)

      by weirdscenes on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:00:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Forget About An Independent Kurdistan (none / 1)

        The Turks will invade it the moment it's declared.  Hell, they might not even wait for it to be declared independent, they're dying to send their troops in there anyway.

        As to the oil, there is none to speak of in the Sunni dominated areas, unless you count Mosul, which is only Arab-Sunni because Saddam conducted an ethnic resettlement campaign in which hundreds of thousands of Sunni Arabs were moved into the city, and huge numbers of Kurds driven out.  Almost all of the oil is located in Kurdish and Shia territory.  Needless to say, the Turks would be only too happy to come to the "aid" of the fairly substantial Turkmen minority in Mosul and find themselves in possession of lots of oil fields.

        "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

        "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

        by JJB on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:21:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It depends on the faction. (none / 0)

          The Turks have some extremely imperialistic foreign policy folks who actually supported annexation of Kurdish Iraq during the first Gulf War.  These guys actually wield a bit of power, and they could get stronger as Turks hear more and more of peshmergas using their power unjustly.

          (Oh, and big thanks to the Bush administration for disarming certain ethnic groups and giving other ethnic groups paramilitary rights--it's like they want a genocide to occur.)

          But if Turkey were to follow through, their own Kurds would have great reason to be angry.  Liberal Turks and Eurocentric anti-imperialists would balk as well.  It would tear the country apart.

          Besides, a post-Iraq Kurdistan could be rather wealthy.  It would lack manpower but it could buy some powerful friends to pull the Turks off.

          Either way, a difficult situation, but as usual, the Turks could go several different ways.

          •  The Turks Will Not Allow (none / 0)

            An independent Kurdistan.  To do so would be to risk giving up substantial portions of their own territory.  It isn't just one faction.  It's the entire spectrum of the Turkish political class.  It's more likely that Spain and France will allow an independent Basque state.

            As to Kurdish riches, the Turks will swoop in and seize the oilfields in Mosul and Kirkuk, thus preventing that.  They've already got thousands of troops in Iraq, a few miles over the border.  And they're rattling their sabres again, as this story from yesterday makes clear.

            "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

            "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

            by JJB on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:00:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Turks hate Kurds (none / 0)

              What I hear from a friend in Turkey is that a majority of even the most educated, liberal Turks hate the Kurds.  The Turks will take advantage of any good opportunity to crush them and occupy oil rich territories.
              •  Yes (none / 0)

                I guess they've taken the place of the Armenians as the people Turks love to hate.

                Harold Pinter, who's a champion of the Kurds and once got thrown out of London's Turkish embassy when he lectured the ambassador about Turkish perfidy during a private dinner arranged by a mutual friend, has called Turkey a military dictatorship with the trappings of democracy.  That's a fair comment, one that we might find applies to this country as well in a few years.

                "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

                "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

                by JJB on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 11:13:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Hmm. (none / 0)

              I meant that only a faction supports annexation of northern Iraq.  Perhaps more--perhaps a majority--sympathize with such sentiment while not actively working toward annexation.

              It's a difficult situation, as northern Iraq is not wholly Kurdish.  As for the article, I see no reason to suspect that the Turks unanimously support invasion of Iraq.  I know they want to stop the PKK which ended its ceasefire a while back.  I know Turkish belligerence is a big factor, perhaps a deciding one, but there are security concerns.

              I think Turkey's invasion is less likely than Iranian interference with Iraq.  The Turks are not stupid enough to risk everything on such a move--Erdogan's entire government would collapse.  Of course, just because something is stupid does not mean it is beyond a country's action, but I do not think Turkish invasion is a certainty.  It would ruin all their recent progress.  Years of careful (if plodding) movement would be dashed.

              Maybe it's rose-colored glasses I'm wearing, but why would Turkey stay the execution of Abdullah Ocalan yet invade Kurdistan?

              •  But of course... (none / 0)

                This is all beside the point.  I don't think that the powers that be (Turkey or whoever) will allow the division of Iraq.  I'm sorry for dwelling on a detail.

                Is the division of Iraq justifiable in itself?  Are there three nations, really, Kurdish, Sunni, and Shiite?  Will this hurt other minorities present in the country?  Would the Assyrians, among others, suffer or be relieved?

          •  EU membership. (none / 0)

            if the Turks are willing to settle the beef in Cyprus in order to look civilised in the EU's eyes, why would they risk that by invading Kurdistan. They could kiss EU membership goodby if they went after the Kurds.

            don't always believe what you think...

            by claude on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 11:38:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  If the US had a leader (none / 1)

      that was truly humble, as Mr. Bush claims he is, we would immediately involve the UN and the Arab League.

      The three-way partition may be the only solution, but multi-nationals will fight this. Turkey could be persuaded to accept a Kurdish state with the carrot of EU membership.

      We do not have an exit strategy because we have no intention of leaving. Meet the new satelite state.

    •  [($50/barrel)*(1,000,000 barrels/day)*(30 days)] (none / 0)

      Where is all the money going?  Iraq pumps how much oil per day?  Explain how we can't finance the whole shebang when all is said and done...?

      BushCo must be stealing the money somehow.  Shhhhh, look at the Zarqawi over here...don't look over there.

      The MSM...excuse me, the Traditional Media is propaganda.

      by mmuskratt on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:48:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sure, it's the neocons fault, (3.87 / 8)

    but it's also the pliant journalism's fault.

    I hold Judith Miller to be as responsible as any of the neocons.  She pushed the WMD story, she set the agenda for the rest of the media, she pushed the aluminum tubes crapola.  If a large number of americans (including people in the Congress) went for this war is partly because of the gross misreporting done by Judy and others.

    Remember, not ONE of her reports proved to be true.  Not even one.

  •  Troop deployment oddity (4.00 / 3)

    The DoD claims undermanned in Iraq yet there are 73,500 troops in Germany and 40,680 in Japan and over 400,000 active Army troops. Isn't the song of "undermanned" just another DoD spin?

    See:
    Personnel End Strength

    World Wide Military Deployments

    The DoD (or should I say the civilian management of the Military/Industrial Complex) has mastered for decades the song and dance of fear mongering. "We need more bullets." "We need more weapon systems." "We need more R&D for missiles." "We need more troops, body armor and hardened Humvees." "We are understaffed, undermanned, and underfunded." "Congress has slashed our budget." "We are in a missile race." "We are in danger." "Communists are a one day drive from Texas." "They hate our way of life."

    This spin is broad smoke screen for the waste, corruption and mismanagement of the Pentagon structure. It is time for considerable reform in our nation's military yet I don't see Democratic leadership that would bring it about. Nearly every politician is sucking on the Pentagon's cash teat.

    Are we to be a Military Nation? Or a Nation of Law? Are ruled by Fear? Or by the will of the People?

    •  No spin... (none / 0)

      Actual troop strength for the Army is about 480,000. About a third of them are in training or in non-combat duty positions, a third are deployed at any given time, and a third are rotating from deployment and/or reconstituting  from having returned from operations. Army's trying to cut back training/noncombat duties to get more people deployed but yes, there isn't enough manpower and people are getting worn out.

      While the answer could be to hire more Army soldiers, Congress and OSD prefer to spend money on R&D and equipment rather than on the high cost of training, sustaining, and retiring personnel. Thus our dillema today. "We need more people" is not a bluff, but you can question the military-industrial complex all you want, it still comes down to Congressional politics.

      Timendi causa est nescire (Ignorance is the cause of fear)

      by Animal13 on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:39:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  who keeps them there? (3.50 / 2)

    We do, as we allow that $200 billion to go unaudited into the pockets of Halliburton, Bechtel, KBR, etc etc etc etc.

    We need to start our own insurgency here. In the streets.

    I'm so sick of everything. The news is more depressing every day. We are a pathetic nation of gluttonous sloths. Between the holiday consumption rush and the events here and in Iraq, I'm about ready to break something. And I'm not even in the military.

    I hope at least my attitude will improve by the new year.  

    Brazen Institutional Terrorist and Corporate Hellraiser (B.I.T.C.H.)

    by Buffmom on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:52:56 AM PST

    •  There is a sliver of truth and inspiration here- (none / 0)

      who keeps them there?

      We do, as we allow that $200 billion to go unaudited into the pockets of Halliburton, Bechtel, KBR, etc etc etc etc.
      We need to start our own insurgency here.

      who keeps them there?

      Aside from the streets,which is an obvious 'avenue' which will open, do you think we will come to see that our path will become to clear to us that we must persuade our legislature to $tarve the bea$t? To drown Bush's war in a bath tub of blood, disgust, guilt and shame? Do our representatives in Congress have the guts to do this - vote against appropriations - when we become convinced that that is the only way out of Iraq?

      I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks in Sozadee CA.

      by The Messenger on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:03:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is not Bush's War, this is America's War (4.00 / 10)

    The most important issue here, I'm afraid, is that of collective responsibility.  

    Many good German or good Japanese (and I do mean, good, honest, God-fearing, just men) died because of their evil leadership. We ourselves did not hesitate to bomb Iraq, or Serbia for that matter, and killed many civilians, good Iraqis, good Serbs, in order to get rid of their evil leaders.

    In the same fashion, it matters not that 49% of American voted for Kerry; there were not enough Iraqis to overthrow Saddam (for whatever reasons, fear, lack of organization) and there is obviously not the will or the means in this country to overthrow Bush.

    In 2000, one might have claimed Bush had not been properly elected; this time, the popular vote (if not the Ohio count) is clear. The campaign was equally clear; no one who supported Bush did not know what he stood for.  The majority of Serbs also supported Milosevic, I think.

    Therefore, whether this idea is palatable to us here or not, we are all responsible.  Yes, it is unfair, unjust. I'm sure that there were virulent opponents of Saddam who perished under American bombs; and I'm equally certain that there will be virulent opponents of Bush, good people, that will die when the now inevitable collapse of the American Empire occurs.

    This is not Bush's War, this is America's War, at least, until we change America.

    OVER HERE: AN AMERICAN EXPAT IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE, is now available on Amazon US

    by Lupin on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:54:02 AM PST

    •  Exactly (none / 1)

      The buck stops with all of us (I am peppering this thread with this MIRROR).  WE are to blame.  All of us who consume oil and want it cheap, those of us who don't want fuel efficient cars, who don't want a caring compassionate government, etc. etc.

      Those of us who want a high standard of living at the cost of our children's and grand children's future.

      We must take responsibility.

      "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..." - Elvis

      by Gearhead on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:56:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sad, unjust but terrifying (4.00 / 4)

        I'm not even saying that we ARE to blame; I'm saying we WILL be blamed.  The 49% just men will pay the same price and share the same fate as the 51% unjust men (generalizing).  That is what history shows.  To foster the illusion that somehow because we're anti-Bush we'll escape retribution is, I think, sad and foolish.

        OVER HERE: AN AMERICAN EXPAT IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE, is now available on Amazon US

        by Lupin on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:02:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Meyers/Kos (none / 0)

    If this is not our new best ticket, then these guys should definitely be our best tickets speechwriters.

    A democracy that is fixed, is broken.

    If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

    by Brother Artemis on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:58:49 AM PST

  •  Every Word In This Story Is True (none / 0)

    And yet the American people, with the truth staring them straight in the face, voted to give Bush another term as President.

    The blame for this catastrophe should be borne mostly by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfowitz, Perle, Adelman, Powell, and everyone else in a position of authority in this loathsome administration.  History will view them as a pack of mendacious, incompetent warmongers.

    But once the bombs started falling, the American people allowed them to do it, and have given them carte blanche to keep right on doing it for at least four more years.  That should not be forgotten.

    "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

    "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

    by JJB on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 08:59:15 AM PST

    •  through the looking glass (4.00 / 3)

       I do agree with every word you say. Yet, as I read this column, I find myself thinking of David Brooks' column yesterday in the NYT. Brooks, for me personally, is the most infuriating and upsetting neo-con columnist to read (along with Wm. Kristol). But yesterday's piece was especially horrific.

      Why?  Because, reading it, I understood that they think of themselves as heroes.  All the people you mentioned, and more.  They are convinced that they will succeed in remaking the ME in a "democratic" (whatever they mean by that) way.  Just as they believe that their tax cuts are just and will lead to prosperity. And freedom for all.  And the rest.

      In their eyes, they are finally, finally righting wrongs.  They have no doubts about it.

      It is a monstrous delusion, from where I stand. Perfidious, murderous, irresponsible to a degree I never would have thought possible.

      And yet, they think w-e are deluded.

      •  egregious david brook (none / 0)

        he slurs when he gets really excited on televsion about bush. he adores bush.
        he makes me angry becasue he is so full of it.
        that particular article was bascially that bush was doing a great job in the middle east by ignoring it.
        bush can do no wrong even if his record is one big train wreck.
        he attached juan cole. juan cole refuted david's criticism in his  blog.
        david brook is an arrogant shill. he is really narcissitic and boring, along with safire, and freidman.  
         
  •  More with Less (none / 1)

    "And while we scream about Saddam's torture chambers, we create new ones of our own."

    That's not fair...we reused his when we could. I'm guessing this is more of Rummy's "efficiency" thinking.

  •  The Land of Cowards (none / 1)

    Those who have just begun opposing the war.  They are to blame.  They are killing Iraqis.  Why do they oppose the war now?  Draft.  They don't want the draft.  Those who kept supporting the war and voted for Bush only care about the draft.  All they care about is not the war, not the victims, not the justice, not the peace.  They just don't want the draft.

    They will immediately start supporting the war again as soon as they (or their children) get an exemption from the draft.  And they will keep voting for Bush, if that is what is necessary to avoid the draft.  (I think it is possible that Republicans will slip into an exemption that only applies to them.)

    These cowards made the war possible.  These cowards re-lected Bush.  They would still vote for Bush today.  They will make all kinds of excuses about the war as long as it doesn't affect them.  Cowards.  Idiots.

    Since when did America have become the land of cowards and idiots?  

  •  i would so like (none / 0)

    to see wolfowitz's testimony "it is inconceivable that we will need more troops..." played on the hour.
    "inconceivable" - the whole crew has been operating with the same meth addled brain.

    "Michele Bachmann is like the demi glace of wingnuttia." - Chris Hayes, Countdown, 2/18/09

    by rasbobbo on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:04:59 AM PST

  •  Correction (none / 0)

    "Only England offers tangible support."

    Not England. Britain. The Black Watch, for instance, the regiment sent to support the US during the Falluja assault, is Scottish.

    •  Technically speaking... (none / 0)

      I think you mean the United Kingdom. Not sure the Scots would agree that they are part of Great Britain, which I thought was synonymous with England.

      Timendi causa est nescire (Ignorance is the cause of fear)

      by Animal13 on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:20:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually (none / 0)

        Great Britain is used to refer to England, Wales, and Scotland.  "British" troops could be from any of the three.  Maybe Scottish Nationalists have an issue with that, I don't know for sure.  The UK is short for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so you use that when wanting to also include NI.

        Disclaimer:  I'm not a hundred percent sure on this, but about 98%. :)

      •  Great Britain (none / 0)

        Is England, Scotland, and Wales.  The United Kingdom came into being with the Act of Union of 1801, which created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, later changed to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

           

        "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

        "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

        by JJB on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:29:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Careful with your rhetoric Kos... (none / 0)

    Good post and excellent points. I disagree with the following characterization, though:

    "a mish-mash of third-world nations."

    Second-string nations all, no doubt, but not one of them third-world. Leftists are sometimes accused of ignorance of political geography, and often display a real arrogance toward small nations (particularly East European and African).

    It's always bothered me that if you want news from the (former) second world and third world, you do much better reading the Economist than the Guardian.

  •  Umm...guilty? (none / 0)

    Wasn't there some Biblical reference to "Beware of false profits" of something? Just look into Bush's eyes, the man has no soul. All you can see in that pupillary abyss of his is a tiny twinkle from the fires of hell.

    Suddenly it's Christmas The longest holiday. When they say 'Season's Greetings, They mean just what they say It's a season, it's a marathon Retail eternity

    by Pescadero Bill on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:21:28 AM PST

    •  The Bible Has Many Things To Say (none / 0)

      About "false profits," "ill-gotten gains," whatever you want to call them.

      It also has caveats about following the teachings of false prophets. :-)

      "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

      "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

      by JJB on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:53:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  George W? (none / 1)

      I think he is refered to as the "Great Deceiver."
      (Some of these lyrics may offend, but they remind me of Georgie)

      The Great Deceiver by King Crimson

      Health-food faggot with a bartered bride
      Likes to comb his hair with a dipper ride
      Once had a friend with a cloven foot
      Once he called the tune in a chequered suit

      Great Deceiver

      In the door on the floor in a paper bag
      There's a shoe-shine boy with a gin-shop slag
      She raised him up and she called him son
      And she canonised the ground that he walked upon

      Great Deceiver

      Cigarettes, ice cream, figurines of the Virgin Mary
      Cigarettes, ice cream, figurines of the Virgin Mary

      Cigarettes, ice cream, cadillacs blue jeans

      In the night he's a star in the Milky Way
      He's a man of the world by the light of day
      A golden smile and a proposition
      And the breath of God smells of sweet sedition

      Great Deceiver

      Sing hymns make love get high fall dead
      He'll bring his perfume to your bed
      He'll charm your life 'til the cold winds blow
      Then he'll sell your dreams to a picture show

      Cigarettes, ice cream, figurines of the Virgin Mary
      Cigarettes, ice cream, figurines of the Virgin Mary

      Cadillacs, blue jeans, dixieland playing on the ferry
      Cadillacs, blues jeans, drop a glass full of antique sherry

      And one more, for good measure, that reminds me of Georgie

      Sober by Tool

      There's a shadow just behind me,
      shrouding every breath I take,
      making every promise empty,
      pointing every finger at me.
      Waiting like a stalking butler who upon the finger rests.
      Murder now the path called must we just before the son has come.

      Jesus, won't you fucking whistle something but the past and done?
      Why can't we not be sober?
      I just want to start this over.
      Why can't we drink forever.
      I just want to start things over.

      I am just a worthless liar.
      I am just an imbecile.
      I will only complicate you.
      Trust in me and fall as well.
      I will find a center in you.
      I will chew it up and leave,
      I will work to elevate you just enough to bring you down.
      Trust me.

      Mother Mary won't you whisper something but what's past and done.
      Trust me.
      I want what I want.

      The sleep of reason produces monsters.

      by Alumbrados on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 03:41:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  wait, wait, I know the answer (none / 0)

    Bill Clinton.

     It is all Bill Clinton's fault, she said, her voice dripping with sarcasm....

  •  Finding the blame (none / 0)

    I agree with many of the people commenting. However, there is a tendancy among my liberal comerades to blur the moral line (and yes, Bush has no moral authority). Yes, this war was wrong. But do we really believe that the insurgents, who don't care if they kill innocents and often target them, really care about their country?
    And as for why all of us need to win this war. Let's distinctly remember that Saddam was a horrible person who did horrible things. And regarding the Vietnam comparison--us leaving Iraq would make that region collapse and would allow for horrible theocracies and dictators to take over. I hate the war, but I sure as hell hope it works as easily as Bush says it will (what a sad hope,huh?)
    •  Let's liberate Palestine..... (none / 0)

      if you feel so fervently about liberating people from evil oppressors.
    •  Yes, let's remember... (none / 0)

      Let's distinctly remember that Saddam was a horrible person who did horrible things

      but who otherwise was no threat to us, whose country we attacked against the will of the United Nations in a elective war of aggression, and we have further alienated the people we allege to be liberating with an incompetent and increasingly brutal occupation that is being resisted with increasing brutality.

      Now that we are clear on what we are remembering, do you have a solution in mind that doesn't include further brutality?

      don't always believe what you think...

      by claude on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 11:57:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  KOS (none / 0)

    Clearly, CLEARLY after reading your well-written post I came to the only conclusion one could.

    It's all Bill Clinton's fault.

  •  GOP Slogan (none / 0)

    War is good business. Invest your sons.

    It's all about money, and America has been sold. Or sold out. Take your pick.

    -6.63 -5.64

    I am I and you are you, and we are both each other too -- Clair Huffaker

    by xysrl on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:32:08 AM PST

  •  Let's take it all the way to the end... (none / 1)

    So who sent our troops into Iraq on false pretenses? Who sent them in unarmored? Who refused to provide enough troops to stabilize the country effectively? Who taunted the Iraqi opposition with "bring 'em on"? Who approved the American-branded torture chambers? Who has rewarded the secretary of defense who has negligently ignored the armor shortage in Iraq?

    And who keeps them there as they continue to die?

    And who voted to give authority to do this, knowing full well who was sitting at the other end of Pennsylvania Ave....?

    Compare that to who was saying this war was a mistake from the outset and wanted to know why Democrats were voting like the GOP. Good thing they shut that wild-eyed screaming madman up in Iowa... who made the ultimate DC gaffe... he told the truth about us not being any safer with Saddam in custody.

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    January 20, 2009... the end of an error.

    by Lestatdelc on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:38:41 AM PST

  •  "liberated" to death... (none / 1)

    Kos -- great piece!

    "Liberated to death."  

    I would love to come up with bumper stickers which which reflect this message... something easy to read and to the point.  

    Any suggestions which could incorporate the "liberated to death" message?

  •  Who? (none / 0)

    Ok, I give up......who?

    "Life is a tragedy for those who feel, a comedy for those who think" - Jean de la Bruyere

    by Tinuviel on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 09:52:04 AM PST

  •  My LTTE (none / 0)

    To the editor:

    The red states listened to George Bush.  They heard lie after lie. He lied about Iraq - he said that there were WMD, even though he had no evidence.  He lied about the budget.  He lied about the tax cuts.  He lied every time he opened his mouth.

    So, what did they do?  They re-elected him.  

    Now, in Iraq, we have disaster after disaster.  This war has been a total botch from start to now.  We have lost more than 1,200 members of our services.  We will lose THOUSANDS more over the next four years.

    The red states are called red states because they have the blood of responsibility on their hands.  These needless wasted deaths are ON THE HEADS of all Bush supporters.  The stain will NEVER leave them.

    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

    by dataguy on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:01:04 AM PST

    •  I'd rather (none / 0)

      I'd rather put my energy into California seceding from the nation than going to war with Reds.  The Reds might try to stop us, but they've got their hands full with Iraq and probably other tragedies coming up soon.
      •  California Reds (none / 0)

        as I remember California, you all have a particularly virulent strain of Reds living in your midst, and they have the water, or, at least, the water passes over a lot of their turf before it gets to where it's going.  Given what a shit hole so much of the once splendid Valley has become, all those folks ought to get a fair buy out and a free ticket to wherever they want to go and plow the entire mess under and let it lie fallow.  There's got to be a better way to do it than how they have been practising agriculure.

        Do you savor the delicate flavor of the irony that, a century after our ideological forefathers were the Reds who caused quite a bit of ruckus in California, we are now fighting against the Reds, to save what our Reds made happen?

        don't always believe what you think...

        by claude on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 12:16:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Let's be bi-partisan and Blame, Kerry & Kohl, (none / 0)

    http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&sessio n=2&vote=00237

    Biden & Reid, Breaux & Landrieu, Clinton & Schumer, Lieberman & Dodd, Daschle & Harkin, Nelson & Nelson, Hollings & Miller, Lincoln & Johnson, Carper & Carnahan, Baucus & Bayh, Feinstein, Torricelli, Rockefeller & Edwards.

    Kinda like Santa's reindeer!

    And that's just Dems in the Senate folks. I'll leave it to someone else to find our war-loving House Dems!

    As we didn't get our referendum on Iraq in 2004, I hope you will join us as we turn 2006 into a referendum on Mr. Lieberman's profound hawkishness. Someone, somewhere has got to be held accountable.

    Usually a candidate only has to run against one Party. Ned Lamont had to fight the entire CT Rep Party, and 1/3 of the CT Dem Party. No wonder he lost.

    by DeanFan84 on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:16:54 AM PST

    •  You're absolutely right (none / 0)

      I concur with you. The despicable Democrats who lent their imprimatur to this atrocity should not escape the ramifications of this disaster. We progressives have to mount primary challenges to the likes of Hillary, Lieberman, Feinstein and Dodd to call them on their perfidy!
      •  Can we start with Joe, our biggest Hawk?? (none / 0)

        Any Dem who claims friendship with Sean Hannity deserves to be primaried.

        Usually a candidate only has to run against one Party. Ned Lamont had to fight the entire CT Rep Party, and 1/3 of the CT Dem Party. No wonder he lost.

        by DeanFan84 on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 11:24:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  The American people (none / 0)

    who voted for the war, and approved the asshole who started it, that's who.  Unless there was election fraud, but few people seem to want to go there for fear of being labeled a tin hat freak...

    The MSM...excuse me, the Traditional Media is propaganda.

    by mmuskratt on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:32:37 AM PST

  •  J'accuse, indeed (none / 1)

    This is inspired by today's "Writer's Almanac" from Garrison Keillor

    Today is the anniversary of the Dreyfuss Affair.
    How could it be?
    Citizens lied to and betrayed by persons in postiions of public trust
    Exhorted and  encouraged to fear and hate.
    Again.
    Half of us branded traitors for refusing to believe the lies of the liars,
    the other half, patriots too, refusing to believe,
    as in that old Groucho story, their "own lying eyes"

    Who could be our Zola?
    What major daily newspsper would dare to run
    that famous headline?

    Najef, Fallujah, Mosul.
    Abu Gharib, Guantanamo.
    When's the next Tet?
    The young are dying, dead.
    The young are killing, more dead.
    Who can say which is worse?

    "Peace on earth, Goodwill toward men"
    O where, O when?

    As always, all questions

  •  I would add Politicization of Warfare (4.00 / 2)

    Bush ran this war along political lines.  I don't want to endorse our presence there or the killing that has occurred by complaining about the conduct of the war itself, but it seems to me that Bush has run the war along political lines such that battleground decisions (such as the latest invasion of Fallujah) were made with the election in mind.  Therefore, due to delays and initial incompetency in working to secure the city, many more Iraqis and Americans died.  

    In fact, I think the politicization of warfare has resulted in many, many deaths.  Remember when that unit disobeyed orders and refused to take contiminated fuel on convoy without armored vehicles?  The administration got some colonel to tell the press that the unit represented "one of the few" units that did not have armor. Based on that and the army's refusal to punish (how could they, when the soldiers were right), kept the press off the issue.  I bet Kossians better versed than I could give more examples of running the war in order to get elected.  

  •  pyrrhic victory (none / 0)

    todays online nyt times article says that bush is going to have a very rough time just keeping the iraq train wreck from taking over his aggressive domestic agenda.  in other words he stold the election and now he gets to face all the chaos he is so adept at creating.
    like a child that breaks all his toys. the toys in this situation are human lives.
    crimes against humanity, ours theirs and future generations.
  •  Good quote by Amy Goodman (none / 0)

    "So when is the right time to question war? If it's not before a war and not during it, what's left? After the war? By then, it doesn't matter."

    I highly recommend her book, "Exception to the Rulers."

    "You can never guarantee victory, but you can guarantee defeat."--Hall of Fame baseball writer Leonard Koppett.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 11:02:50 AM PST

    •  Amy Goodman... (none / 0)

      ...has gained a lot of stature in my eyes, and continues to.  She is unrelenting, and she gets some serious people to talk to her about serious things. She had Krugman on the other day, although he should never get near a mike, only write, IMHO.  

      Amy Goodman is one tough cookie. She's both a credible journalist and knows how to sensationalise, and she's gotten herself a pretty good-sized platform.

      Did you happen to hear the time she snagged Bill Clinton, the Big Dog himself, live, when he was cold-calling random stations in the 2000 election?  It was truely one of the glorious moments of radio journalism. They both stood there, toe-to-toe, and slugged it out, figuratively speaking, asking the tough questions and giving some tough answers, uninterrupted, for what I'm remembering now as twenty minutes or so. I came away from that with increased respect for both of them.  

      don't always believe what you think...

      by claude on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 12:35:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  preemptive strike... (none / 0)

    Blame the evangelicals (W is one, they supported his war for that reason and to protect Israel to force Jesus to come back).  Nobody cares about a shadowy handful of neocons, and Falwell/Robertson make good scary boogeymen and you're safe from being called antisemites if you go after Baptists.  That, and there's good social policy reasons to hit them hard with this.

    "The evangelicals stabbed us in the back for their own religious ends" - say it loud and say it often.  Try to buy airtime w/ good Gen Boykin "my God is bigger than their God" quotes.  Although in all honesty I wanted Clinton gone (sorry, I hate being lied to, but for the record yes, lying about a war is much worse than lying about a BJ) the whole impeachment thing shows you can get a majority against evilvangelical weirdness.  

    Lump Iraq in w/ no interracial dating at Bob Jones in the public mind.

    •  and the folks (none / 0)

      who long ago made the wacked-out Book of Revalations part of the Bible and not just another apocraphyl, paranoid scroll of gibberish.  

      For people who believe in Armageddon, the more fucked up the world gets, the better it's all headed for them.

  •  What honestly amazes me (none / 0)

    Is that even if you grant them the war rationale, the sheer level of incompetance all around on every issue is simply staggering. you would think for a crew to be so desperate for the war they would stop at nothing to make it succesful.

    these people arent idiots, in the sense of not being able to understnad, these are all really smart guys with boat loads of experience. Save for bush.

    Even when the war drums started and it was obvious we were going in, never in my wildest imagination did I expect this level of incompetance.

    It's going to be remarkable history once all the truth, documents, memos and memoirs come out in the years ahead.

    the saddest part of all, none of this is revisionist as to the problems that would be faced, though serious problems, no 20/20 hindsight or monday morning quartbacking, so to ignore all the voices of reason, saying you need a post war plan, you need to secure the country quickly, you need to stand up Iraqi institutions fast, you need to provide relief and reconsturction and yuo need to fnid Iraqis jobs, is quite frankly, criminal.

    then to add to the woes, they decide that torture and bombing and clearing of whole cities is the way to go, and yet when it is proven not to work, in fact be disasterous, they decide its failing beause they simply arent doing enough of it.

    anyone with an internet connection and a spreadsheet was going ot be able to forcase that Iraqi oil was never going to be enough ot pay for the occupation..

    Just the sheer incompetance is what gets me. And most of them have not been replaced yet.

    •  That's The CW (none / 0)

      "these people arent idiots, in the sense of not being able to understnad, these are all really smart guys with boat loads of experience."

      However, as Josh Marshall did with Dick Cheney, I think it's now fair to look at the sum of their careers going back to the Nixon/Ford years and conclude that they (Rummy, Cheney, Adelman, Wolfowitz, Powell, etc.) are, indeed, quite stupid.  Smart people can make mistakes, but when your entire public career is one disastrous gaffe after another, intelligence would seem to be a quality in which you are lacking.

      "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

      "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

      by JJB on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 11:42:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I thought I was missing something.... (none / 0)

      This whole thing looked like such a blunder from the start that I thought it must be disenginious.  I thought I must be missing somthing.  My thought was that this was all going down to provoke a civil war in which we could back one side against the other.  Hey that might heppen.  It was all just way too predicatble.  People at the CIA knew what would go down.

      These guys tried to play hardball and provoke a regional conflict.  I still refuse to believe that they didnt know exactly what would happen.  Do they have it under control now that they got what they wanted?  No, they screwed up with the planning part of it.  

      Question: what happens in the next 4 years that we can not predict.

      Question 2: How will Iraq war go over next election, and how can Dems plan ahead to capitalize?  

      "And so the city suffers, for she is robbed of her counselors by fear." - Thucydides

      by fiddlinsteve on Thu Dec 23, 2004 at 05:21:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Paid by oil revenues (none / 0)

    Everytime I hear someone say the Iraqi war will be paid for by Iraqi oil revenue I just feel like screaming.  A complete screw up in planning.  But don't ask my opinion, as these folks:

    Iraq POW Torture Award Overturned


    The Iraqi government never appeared in U.S. court to argue its case, leading to the default judgment last July. But the Justice Department intervened after the POWs sought to be paid from frozen Iraqi assets in the United States, saying the money was needed to rebuild Iraq.

    Government lawyers had argued that huge legal judgments against foreign governments would hamper diplomatic efforts as the United States wages its war on terrorism.

    They also argued that the POWs were not entitled to the money because President Bush made an official determination in May 2003 that a statute allowing payment from frozen assets was not applicable to Iraq because it no longer supported terrorism after Hussein was overthrown.

    and these people:

    U.S. opposes suit by ex-hostages in Iraq


    The Bush administration is opposing efforts by hundreds of Americans held by Saddam Hussein before the first Gulf War to collect damages that would be paid from frozen Iraqi assets.

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -- Benjamin Franklin

    by gbrandt on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 11:53:26 AM PST

  •  Nice synopsis (none / 0)

    So thousands die, for a war built on false justifications, managed poorly, with underequipped, undermanned, and under-armored forces. And to add insult to injury, we've had to pay for this mess, to the tune of $200 billion.

    Kos gives a very concise synopsis of Bush's war in Iraq.  Something to keep on hand when you ever need it in a longer letter to others!

  •  Wrong (none / 0)

    You're just wrong on this Kos.  The people who are responsible for killing the troops are the people killing the troops.  Does Bush bear some responsibility?  Yes.  Do I BLAME him, outright, as you appear to be doing?  Not when there is a person on the other end of that IED, AK-47 or RPG.  I'm on your side, and you're just wrong on this one.
    •  I never quite understood this view (none / 0)

      I mean, it's not as if the American soldiers were just sitting peacefully in their stateside bases when these Iraqis attacked them.  Bush ordered our military to attack and occupy Iraq.  Then as predicted by almost everyone with any grounding in reality, various elements of the Iraqi population took exception and have been showing their displeasure with small arms and explosives.

      It's true that the Iraqis behind the specific attacks are certainly to blame for those deaths, in the immediate sense, because they're the immediate actors, but if it were not for Bush's war of choice, our soldiers wouldn't be there under arms. So, there's plenty of blame to go around, and I absolutely blame Bush 100% for putting the soldiers there, in a situation in which it was 100% certain that they're going to get attacked, maimed, and killed.

      I mean, seriously, how would Americans react if someone invaded our country "for our own good", and worse, made an absolute screwup out of the job, so that for most Americans, their subjective personal situation was worse than it was before the invasion?

    •  American soldiers are a lawful and legitimate (none / 0)

      target for insurgents, under the laws of war that have existed for centuries.  Some insurgents have engaged in criminal acts, such as by abducting and executing non-combatants, but killing soldiers, on the other hand, is the whole point of warfare.
      Leading Bush administration officials have committed grave international crimes: 1) by unlawfully invading Iraq (crime of agression and a violation of the UN Charter) and 2) in the means of conducting the war, eg.,  by the disproportionate use of force; unlawful targetting of civilians; detention without according humanitarian protection (and committing acts of torture), etc.
      The United States helped to develop the international law of war and has codified them into US law. It is now wantonly violating them on a massive scale.
      Some will say that positive law doesn't matter.  But the point is that the unlawful behavior of the US authorities makes it morally and legally impossible for us to call to task any other nation or foreign individual for unlawful acts, terrorist or otherwise, that they might commit.  Because law is built upon reciprocity and legitimacy. And the Bush administration has opted unambiguously for a hyper-anarchic international order.

      "No one else could ever be admitted here, since this gate was made only for you. I am now going to shut it."- Franz Kafka, "Before the Law"

      by normal family on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 05:21:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  And who got elected ... (none / 0)

    Because half the country doesn't give a shit?

    Andrew Mellon & GOP: 'In a Depression, assets return to their rightful owners'

    by Tuffie on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 01:27:02 PM PST

  •  Just got a sign... (none / 0)

    Opened up my fortune cookie to find the message "Today it's up to you to create the peacefulness you're looking for."  I think I'll tape this one to my monitor.  Next to the "Be the change that you want to see in the world" I've got there.

    If you can't support the veterans you have, don't make any new ones.

    by slackjawedlackey on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 04:08:57 PM PST

  •  the people rule in the end (none / 0)

    "So, who is to blame for all the deaths in Iraq?"

    Clearly, it's the American people as they have not stopped this war, and in turn, this inaction can been seen as responsibility.  It's the tragedy of war.  

    Having said that though, I don't think we've stopped a war before without a long process (examples?).  So, even though the American people have the theoretical power to protest, change, and hold its govt accountable -- for a war, it takes time.

    Despite many, many people opposing Bush on Iraq, it hasn't ended the war.  Honestly, in my town, I don't even think the war is on people's minds -- it certainly isn't a topic you overhear being discussed when you're out on the town, for example.

    Buy Renewable Energy Now! Choose Your Power or Green Tags

    by drh on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 05:06:13 PM PST

  •  The ones to blame are those... (none / 0)



    ...who started it all.
  •  Iraq: A series of unfortunate events. (none / 0)

    The President, the leader of The U.S., George W. Bush is responsible for the war in Iraq.  

    The opposite of progress is congress.

    by rlharry on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 06:10:32 PM PST

  •  Everything you say, kos, is true and what you (none / 0)

    leave out is inconsequential. What I have never understood, and still don't, is that what you have said was obvious even as it unfolded before eyes, and yet half the country continues to believe that Bush was justified in invading Iraq. It baffles me how a populace can be so intensely interested in waging war, yet so ignorant of the specifics that led up to it. And I say this as a conservative Republican who voted for Bush in 2000 (and for Kerry in 2004).

    This Reagan Republican wants George W Bush to stand trial in the Hague.

    by CityofGod on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 06:20:05 PM PST

  •  I don't like re-writing history (none / 1)

    This was not Bush's war. This was a lot of people's war.

    Read this and tell me that 'Bush' alone is responsible for this mess.

    The same assholes that pushed that war continue to push for more hostilities in the Middle East.

    The difference between:

    Rep. Tom Lantos of California, the panel's senior Democrat, said delaying a confrontation with Iraq would only ''increase the danger and increase the price'' and leave the United States ''humiliated before history.''

    and someone who cares about humanity:


    Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y., said: ''I continue to have grave concerns about the administration's complete failure to explain what an unsupported war on Iraq will do to our efforts to establish a stable global order.''

    is telling.

    Please remember which democrat actually had the insight to care about the global order, security, humankind (read: Ackerman) and which one was just spewing out jingoists lines (read: Lantos).

  •  Distribute this diary. (none / 0)

    I had a yellow magnet ribbon which said "Bring Them Home Now" and someone ripped if off my car.  I am printing out copies of this diary and whenever I pass one of those yellow magnet ribbons with "Support Our troops" or God Bless America or Pray for our Troops I'm going to slip it under the magnet so the stupid driver can get some education and a reality check.  

    This diary should be an op ed in every newspaper. So clear and eloquent.

    www.honk4peace.org

    by Jean on Thu Dec 23, 2004 at 06:36:11 AM PST

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