Will fringe left dominate NYC protests?

A political writer for the New York Observer has an article at TNR online about the recent protests in NYC. It's here:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=express&s=smith032204

I think that the show of anti-Bush strength in NYC during the Republican convention could be a great thing... if it doesn't come off as the cause of extremists. Certain groups show up for every lefty protest and try to make it their own. Frankly, I find this distasteful. If a protest is about opposition to the Iraq War, then stay on that subject. Have a booth about your own cause, hand out pamphlets, but don't try to turn the event toward your own personal cause.

I wonder what the DNC and other Democrats can do to ensure safe, peaceful, on-message protests in August. Or will that be too difficult?

•  Free Mumia!

  by Mike from NJ on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:07:19 AM PDT

  •  i think these days it's

    "free mumia. free the cuban 5!"

    who the hell are the cuban 5?

    by Ekim on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:14:29 AM PDT

  •  Give Me Free Marijuana Now!

    My second favorite poster, after Free Mumia, is one with some sort of ridiculous screed about pot, usually emphasizing the desire to become stoned immediately.

    by Aaron Gillies on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 08:14:15 AM PDT

    •  My Favorite Graffitti

      In the early 1990's the maoist morons in the Detroit area were painting "Free Chairman Gonzalo" (referring the the head of the Peruvian "Shining Path" rebels) on a bunch of highway overpasses.  Somebody finally came along after them and on several overpasses added "With Every Purchase."  

      It still makes me smile.

      by DHinMI on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 09:48:45 AM PDT

•  hmm

  i was so annoyed at the first protest i went to in sf last year that i contemplated not going this past weekend. the first one i went to was so annoying - just a bunch of wingnuts handing out maoist literature and speakers from the world worker's party. thankfully last saturday was a bit better. i imagine nyc rnc protests will be so large that the wingnuts will be marginalized. one can only hope that ANSWER is not the organizer. they are so obnoxious. i really hope the sectarian groups don't have a large role in the demo's. let's leave the stalinist platforms for another day. we need to be on message in nyc- no to bush 2004! hopefully the sectarians will stay in their holes. or at least not trying to pester me with papers or raise money for the milosevic defense fund.

  by Ekim on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:13:50 AM PDT

•  unions!

  I've had exactly this concern for a while now-- probably going back to the fall when I saw an advertisement for an organizing meeting for getting students at my university to come to the protests ,and it was all in radical language talking about "shutting down the GOP convention!" The key thing in determining how successful this is, I think, will be how strong of a role organized labor plays, which hopefully is a large one and an assertive one. Think about all of the anti-globalization protests, and compare Seattle, which was pretty much an anarchic explosion of energy, to this fall's AFL-CIO-organized rally against the FTAA in Miami. I'd argue that if they step in with the way they did for Miami, things will be able to turn out decently OK. And NY laborl eaders are a pretty staunchly progressive but pragmatic bunch-- recall that Dennis Rivera was one of the first people to get behind PATAKI for re-election in return for a sweetheart contract deal, even at the same time as he was being vocal in organizing anti-war stuff and starting to help out Dean.

  by sip1983 on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:21:18 AM PDT

  •  I Doubt...

    ...labor is going to get involved with protesting the Republican convention when there is so many more important things to do that will help us win the election.  I'm probably going to post on this at some point, but what I'll say now is this:

    Protesting the convention is an indulgent waste of time compared to more productive things we could be doing in our own neighborhoods.  If you live somewhere without a single competetive Presidential/Senate/Congressional/Legislative race, go somewhere else that weekend where you can talk to voters.  

    Just look back at the posts on the Bush campaign hiring Vance International; I know a lot about how these guys operate, and if any of them are around, they will provoke problems and then get it on video that will immediately get beamed around the world.

    Protesting the Republican convention will accomplish nothing as far as convincing voters to vote against Bush, but it could result in chaos that will then be affixed to Kerry and the Democratic party unless it is so clearly the ANSWER people and their ilk that it can't be denied.  Besides, let them have their own convention without us intruding on it; chances are, they will have a convention with either DeLay spewing hatred a la Buchanan 1992, or it'll be so disconnected from reality that it will look like they're nuts and living in la la land where the Iraq war is a smashing success, we've created a net 3 million jobs, and Bush restored honor and dignity in the White House by lying about everything important to the nation.

    The election is going to be won by us talking to people who don't already hate Bush and convincing them to accept the reasons why they should vote him out of office and make Kerry President.  The only reason I can figure out for going to NYC and protest the convention is to stand around with a bunch of like-minded people and yell at the Republicans.  That's a diversion, and it makes us look impotent for protesting something we could take into our own hand by just beating him in the election a few months later.

    If New Yorkers want to protest, that's up to them.  But for the rest of us, stay home and talk to people who need to be convinced to vote for Kerry and against George W. Bush.

    by DHinMI on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:38:40 AM PDT

    •  protesting

      i think it serves a purpose. it shows massive public opposition. i just hope it's not hijacked by assholes spouting stalinist shit. the rational folks (religious groups, labor, greens, dem's) have got to be there to add some reason to it. though i do agree that perhaps demo's aren't necessary at conventions. i think they are important in say the context of anti-war. anyways, i have heard that labor won't likely get involved. they are throwing their massive resources into get out the vote and mobilizing for the elections. and they should.
      

      by Ekim on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:56:00 AM PDT

      •  In theory, yes

        In reality? Mmmm...not so much. And like DH says, there will undoubtedly be agents provocateur in attendance to make everybody look bad to Ma & Pa Heartland watchin' on the teevee.

        Much better to go out and register voters or something.

        by hamletta on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 03:52:59 AM PDT

      •  Proportionately speaking

        the Stalinist assholes aren't really a bunch, more like a speck, but their impact is magnified by their centrality in the organizing, and by the continued obsession with them by mainstream America, both the press, the conventional wisdom and the efforts of the government to paint anyone who protests as a "Stalinist asshole".  

        I'm no fan of these guys, but my criticisms, concerns and issues with them are different from the kneejerk cries that they "hijack" events.  I think there are more important parts of their politics and participation that need to be highlighted and I believe there are ways in which their "fringe" politics actually help the progressive causes, if people wouldn't just dismiss, ignore, try to run away from or just wish they would go away.  If the non-radical left did a better job articulating then some powerful politics could be built.

        by a gilas girl on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:24:14 PM PDT

    •  Protesting the convention

      Protesting the convention is an indulgent waste of time compared to more productive things we could be doing in our own neighborhoods.  If you live somewhere without a single competetive Presidential/Senate/Congressional/Legislative race, go somewhere else that weekend where you can talk to voters.

      The history of this "call to protest" should always be remembered: this protest started as a reaction in NYC and by New Yorkers at the blatant politicization of 911 by the Bush Administration (a parallel if you well to the reaction in Spain against the Aznar government's manipulation of the Madrid bombings and the profound disrespect to Madrid's dead that the nation felt Aznar had displayed in doing so).  

      As a former resident of NYC (during 911) that is a reason to protest.  And I do think NYC both has the right and also the responsibility to do so.  People who want to go to the convention and show solidarity with the city and its residents/supporters who are appalled at this should do so, but IN SOLIDARITY with NYC.

      Its their party.

      There's an interesting take on the dimension of spectacle that contemporary peace protests have come to represent, that was posted on the Commondreams website.  Its an original essay rather than a repost of a column published elsewhere.  The existing toolkit that the left is working with is clearly threadbare in many ways. And there are plenty (not enough yet, but still plenty) of folk active on the left who are aware of this and grappling with it.  Constructive criticism and observations of that are certainly useful.  But the criticisms of protests and of the left that one tends to see here at dKos are a little hard to take seriously in some ways because of the degree of acceptance of the common kneejerk interpretation from the right about the left, as well as the transparency with which they adopt the mainstream media coverage of both protesting as a form of political action and democratic engagement, and the model of "marginalization" that all discussions of protests reveal.

      This idea that "a few radicals or anarchists" can ruin it for you, or turn you off, doesn't seem to apply when a few "idiots" on the right take pro football games and turn them into racist or mysognist spectacles, or when a few "idiots" on the right paint public discussion of civil rights for for gays as "ungodly", you all don't abandon those forms of cultural and or political engagement, you just right those folks off as "crazies" and keep watching football, or keep engaging in public debate.  The same with protests.  If you abandon them to the incredibly small faction that you all grant so much power to, then you are as complicit as the right wing (or as these folks you all loathe) to rendering protest into a characature and in the end you replenish the right wing crack down on dissent, even if only indirectly.

      That said, I don't share most people's disdain for these fringe groups even though I do share your disagreement with their tactics and with their dogmatism.  I'm aware enough of how the fringe is a necessary part of any kind of movement politics, not for its brilliant political insight but for the dynamics of movement that democracy must necessarily embrace.  I'm also aware of the nuts and bolts of organizing and how it is that these groups really are the core of the logistics of many of these events, something that is disturbing but is more a product of the alientation and marginalization of the less "radical" left by the mainstream than it is a sign of any great strength or skill of the fringe groups that so annoy folks.  ANSWER is the nightmare of so many I know on the left, but the truth is that ANSWER more than any other group outside of some religious ones has inroads into communities of urban minority youth that no other political organization can really duplicate.  For this reason alone I believe, ANSWER is important to listen to, dogmatic pains in the a** they may be (and they certainly are). I rarely agree with them in terms of their policy orientation or objectives, but listening to them is important.

      The discussions of these events and what they are/what they mean, the potential they have is pretty cursory and I can't help but wonder if that's a missed opportunity.  

      by a gilas girl on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:15:53 PM PDT

      •  Points Well Taken

        My criticism isn't against protests per se, it's about protesting this particular event.  Any ambiguity I feel stems from the right that New Yorkers have to reject the Republicans' transparent attempt to use the tragedy of 9-11 as a political prop, so I respect protesting the decision to stage the Repub convention in NYC so close to the anniversary of 9-11.  But I'm afraid most people just want to go to NYC because they hate George Bush, and I don't think this particular type of protest is useful or as productive as grass roots organizing in one's home town, or if not at home than in a key swing area or state.  Are we protesting the convention?  If so, that's silly, because they are entitled, just like us, to hold their nominating convention.  And I suspect the main, even only, motivation of many who want to protest in NYC is to detract from the Republicans' pomp and celebration of nominating George W. Bush to be reelected )President.  

        I have no problem with protests and demonstrations in general.  I think the aggregate effects of the hundreds of local anti-war protests that took place in cities all over the country was very powerful, much more powerful than the effects of the handful of huge protests that occured in NYC, SF, DC, London, Paris, etc.  I also think that occasionally there can be powerful and effective large "national" rallies or protests.  I think the big 1989 pro-choice rally in DC helped keep the pro-choice movement motivated and served as a good organizing tool by providing an event to bring people together and then collect their names and info and integrate them into activism back home.  But I just don't see how people driving from Ohio or Oregon or Oklahoma to protest in NYC is as effective a way to change what it is that the protesters oppose (the Bush presidency and Republican Congress) as is staying home and doing the electoral work to effect the change they desire.

        I've read your posts for a year, and you've helped sharpen my thinking and reminded me of what before I began working in electoral politics I knew about the wider meanings and actions of politics.  But this is one specific case where I think political protest isn't widening the realm of politics beyond electioneering.  It's essentially drawing protest into the realm of electioneering at a point in the campaign cycle when other types of activity would be more "high yield" and outcome based.  I'll again grant you that the exploitation of NYC is a worthy reason to protest the convention, but that's not what the protests are going to be about, at least not according to what I've read.  It's going to be about how Bush has been awful for America, and that message, I believe, is delivered most effectively and most efficiently in one on one discussions in the places where voters live, work and socialize, not (unless one lives in the area) by traveling hours or even days just to walk along with like-minded people in NYC at the same time the Republicans are holding their nominating convention.  
        

        by DHinMI on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 04:55:40 PM PDT

•  i worry

  i live in NYC and have been to all the marches here and in DC. It's been great and very peaceful and productive for all of us involved.

  But, for some reason i have a bad feeling about this. The level of anger is rising and there will be lots of people on their side egging things on and trying to provoke a riot, hoping it backfires on the Democrats. If there are major disturbances, it will make us look worse, not them. I don't trust the media to accurately portray anything at this point.

  by wilfred on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:32:39 AM PDT

  •  The media will slaughter you

    and any other protestors, sadly. You also need to worry about hacks paid by the RNC to come and start fights. This happened during the war protests last year and will happen even more this time. They want something that will make America weep for the GOP. Wellstone Memorial all over again.

    by JamesB3 on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:38:06 AM PDT

•  without ANSWER

  there would not have been protest marches. They did 90 % of the organizing, while the Democratic party cowed in fear.

  by bigbay on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:38:50 AM PDT

  •  yeah

    well, there are a lot of other good groups out there - win without war had some nice rallies. and united for peace and justice tones down the rhetoric.
    answer might organize a lot of protests but they are fucking assholes. they spout stalinist crap. fuck, they are stalinists. you can read articles from some of their members (IAC members who are often world worker's party members - at least the board) defending north korea, the tiannamen square crackdown, and milosevic.
    they are not progressives. they are sectarian dogmatists. and frankly, if another one of them tries to get me to donate to their rally/milosevic defense fund i'll might just slap their worker's of the world paper right out of their hands.

    by Ekim on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:59:39 AM PDT

  •   Answer

    They are a bunch of nutjobs that do nothing to further the cause of progressive politics.

    by jbou on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 02:24:59 AM PDT

•  Never fear

  I'm going to work on organizing the anti-RNC protests for United for Peace and Justice (UfPJ) this summer. UfPJ is the group that has sponsored all of the big protests (Feb. 15th, March 22nd, March 20th) in New York City over the past year.

  UfPJ is also spearheading the drive to organize against the RNC this time around. It's true that some of the anarchist groups are also working on the protests, but they are likely to be fairly marginalized. The same is true of ANSWER/WWP.

  One of the main organizers in UfPJ, who has lots of experiance dealing with these folks, explained to me that labor unions such as SEIU 1199 and the AFSCME DC are likely to take a major lead in the anti-Bush protests. Labor leaders don't really like to put up with ultra-left communists or anarchists.

  There will sporatic property destruction (some by NYPD provocaturs), but these extremists will be overwhelmed by peaceful protests-- that's my prediction.

  I'll in the center of the organizing efforts throughout the summer and will be sure to keep Kosites updated.

  by benwaxman on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:39:47 AM PDT

  •  Very heartening

    and important for people to remember that folks organizing are NOT fools and have been doing this for a long time, many of them.  They know about the media, they know about provacateurs, they know about police harrassment.  

    They have a lot against them, but still they are doing it.  As a participant in many of the most recent "big events" I know that these events are nearly always peaceful (the model in the minds of the authorities and, unfortunately the media/inactive public is Seattle, but even that was an abberration and a product of several factors including police provocation)and while the dogmatists are annoying and given far too much microphone time, most people don't listen and don't pay attention to them. And this is people at the event, not people watching on television or commenting on blogs.

    by a gilas girl on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 01:31:01 PM PDT

•  Moderators

  You use them for everything else, no reason you can't have them at a protest too.  If you get tired of screaming and prancing around with a puppet or whatever your game is, just go around pointing out to people that they're off-topic, flamebaiting, or in the case of the Young Conservatives' Fifth Collumn Arsonist Squad, convict them of trolling and toss them over to the cops.  You get a 1:10 or so ratio of decent moderators to protesters, which should be easy, you should be able to keep it under pretty good control.

  by fenix down on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 02:27:53 AM PDT

•  it's nice the unions are with us now...

  but they did little, to nothing for the anti-war movement when things were difficult. United For Peace and Justice usually worked with ANSWER and co-sponsored the marches. Again, it's unlikely the marches would have happened without ANSWER. Every kibbutz needs some crazies.

  I don't have great faith in the labor leaders of today. They just got their asses kicked by Safeway despite massive public support.

  by bigbay on Tue Mar 23, 2004 at 05:00:07 AM PDT