Daily Kos

Do we really need a military?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 07:57:04 PM PDT

What I love about the Daily Kos is that we're a community of intelligent people who prefer to use our brains, rather than our...um...middle fingers, as the Freepers would, in discussing the state of things. As such I feel that even a concept that many of you might find a bit out there could produce useful discussion.

With that in mind, I present to you Why We Don't Need A Military.

So Linnaeus and I were out crusing Seatown and drove past a bank of military recruiting offices in a strip mall. We commented about how we were happy we'd never signed up for such a thing, wondered who'd ever want to, talked about how much military life would suck.

And then, it hit me. Why do we even have a military at all?

For many of you, the answer to this question will seem obvious, and will be in the affirmative. Fair enough. All I ask is that you follow my reasoning here. I like to think that it makes some sense, and isn't the ramblings of a socialist nut.

First, do we really need a military for national defense, perhaps its most cited purpose? I don't think so. Who is going to invade us? Indeed, who ever has invaded us? The British, but that was 200 years ago. Japan attacked us, but that was 60 years ago in a different world. September 11, I'll deal with below.

I submit that no country would invade the US, even if we did not have a military. I use Taiwan as an example. China could very easily conquer Taiwan tomorrow. Sure, the Nationalists would put up a good fight, but the might of the PLA would overwhelm them. Yet China has not yet done so. This is because in the process of invading, they would destroy Taiwan's economic value, rendering the cost of invasion prohibitive.

Isn't this a function of the fact that Taiwan is pretty heavily armed itself? Only in part. The other reason China holds back is because they know that an invasion of Taiwan would provoke certain reaction in the world, notably in the EU and the US. They would be unable to prevent the US in particular from slapping punishing economic sanctions on China and Chinese trade. Beijing would have Taiwan, and an economic crisis on its hands. So that wouldn't work.

The US is a very similar situation. We know that our neighbors are peaceful. So there's no fear from them. The countries in the world that might like to attack us - and there are VERY few of them - are simply too far away to launch an attack. If they could overcome that, they would still have to contend with the fact that the US remains the pre-eminent economic power in the world, and that an attack would not only cause that power to be used against them, but would provoke others in the world, again the EU especially, to lodge sanctions against the attacking nation. The cost, again, would prove prohibitive.

So we don't need a military for national defense. Don't we still need it for important overseas work? Such as guarding the Korean border? Iraq? Kosovo? Here again, I claim that this is unnecessary. The Bush Administration has repeatedly pissed away opportunities to resolve tensions on the Korean peninsula. With Chinese pressure, North and South would probably reach some kind of accord that, if not resulting in outright unification, would drastically reduce the threat of war. Scholars such as Chalmers Johnson have argued in detail that this is a very likely scenario, blocked only by the Bush Administration.

We all know Iraq was an unnecessary war. And we could have prevented the Kosovo situation by nipping Milosevic in the bud in the late '80s - non-militarily. Beyond that, the world is simply not a warlike place any longer. Small wars abound, but they're small, and do not require the massive US military establishment that we currently possess, in any way.

What, then, about terrorism?

I think one of the most important failures with our response to September 11 was to treat it as a military problem. European governments have long understood that military solutions to terror do not at all work - look at the Northern Ireland experience. And the US will come to learn the same thing. Al-Qaeda could have, and will be, fought with conventional police methods. In some situations, you'll need more than regular police, but I also submit that you don't need a full-blown military to fight the war on terror. Some special forces, numbering in the few thousands, would be sufficient to aid law enforcement in their anti-terror work.

In fact, terrorism proves my point about how the military-as-national-defender argument no longer holds any water. The US military proved utterly unable to protect us against September 11. It's simply not a military matter.

What about military intelligence gathering? Well, what about it? That job can be done by the CIA. There's no specific reason why it has to be military.

We're not left with much, at this point, in the question of 'do we need a military at all'? Most arguments now come down to some sort of national machismo, or arguments about the inherent warlike state of mankind. The first is patently ridiculous, the second, has no bearing in reality. Developed nations have not fought wars against each other in 60 years. With globalization, all countries are, for better or worse, tied into the same economic networks. Wars increasingly become an enterprise that is not cost-effective.

But, eugene, what if the world we live in now doesn't stay as it is? Couldn't we need a military in the future?

Yes. And this is where the Founding Fathers come into the picture. They opposed standing armies and would be shocked at the one we have today. Our military sucks away billions of dollars that instead should go to infrastructure, education, health care, jobs - things we actually need. This too would have appalled them. Yet they did recognize that the national defense might have to be provided for - after all, they did live through the Revolution. So their solution was a citizen militia that could be called upon in times of true national emergency. If we ever did get invaded - and I suggested above that this is a vastly unlikely scenario - then there's nothing to stop us from raising a military to fight it off. Aside from that, a military such as we have simply is not necessary.

Just look at what we've used the military for since the end of World War II (after which point I suggest the world has dramatically shifted): wars to prop up unpopular political regimes, the overthrow of democratic governments, the securing of spaces for capitalist exploitation. Not exactly necessary. Indeed, our military and the use of it has dramatically worsened our global position - see again Chalmers Johnson.

I hope this isn't read as anti-soldier. I have respect for people who have served in the past. But that doesn't mean we need a military now.

I doubt many will agree with me, and that's OK. I at least hope I've made you think. A military is not necessary in the 21st century. There may be uses for it, but that is by no means the same as necessity. Have a good night.

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  •  Our neighbors (none / 0)

    won't invade us?  Well, I would argue that our neighbors aren't just Canada and Mexico, but are every country in the world.  

    The U.S. doesn't have a military anymore?  Great! Fire up the subs and carriers, we can be there in three days!

    In a perfect world we wouldn't need a military, but until we get to the point in human evolution where power and influence aren't coveted, and religious zealotism isn't used as a means to kill, we still do.

    •  See below (none / 0)

      I am not saying we should not defend ourselves if attacked. I am saying that I do not see any realistic chance of a military invasion actually happening, that our abandonment of a large military would not change that fact, and that the 'human evolution' argument doesn't change the fundamental realities of global economics. Yes, humans will still fight, but that doesn't mean they'll fight massive wars.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:16:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not only do we need a military, (none / 1)

    but we need the world's most powerful military.

    Because, as the richest nation and the world's biggest consumer, we have the most to defend.

    And note that I am being serious. Very.

    The Gas Tax Holiday is a Mental Vacation.

    by JimTXDem on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:10:59 PM PDT

    •  Fair enough (none / 0)

      What do we have to defend ourselves from? That was the point of my Taiwan analogy. That an invader would by the act of invading wreck the economic benefit to an invasion. Show me a country that would risk economic ostracization to invade the US - which WOULD defend itself.

      I should also be clear that I'm not arguing for pacifism, or that we should not defend ourselves if necessary, just that we simply have no need for this big military.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:14:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  PS (none / 1)

        China's not invading Taiwan right now because the U.S. is the strongest military in the world...

        What you see as pragmatism on the part of China is nothing more than peace through fear of retribution.

        •  What kind of retribution? (none / 0)

          My thesis is that they're much more worried about economic retribution than military retribution.

          Besides, we can't actually retaliate militarily to an invasion of Taiwan, and the Chinese realize this.

          The scenario goes like this: China invades Taiwan. The US sends a carrier group over. China attacks it, maybe sinks it. Then what do we do? Threaten nuclear war?

          As a Chinese diplomat once said to an American negotiator, "what American president would be willing to trade Los Angeles for Taipei"?

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
          Neither is California High Speed Rail

          by eugene on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:27:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  When the Dutch were the world's... (none / 0)

      biggest economic power back in the 1600s, they didn't have the world's largest military.  And it worked pretty well for them (sure they eventually lost their status, but not through invasion).
      •  Actually, it was in part through military... (none / 0)

        ...although not because the Dutch got invaded.

        A central part of modern history has been the use of the military by nation-states to secure lands for capitalist expansion. The Dutch lost at this game in the later 17th century.

        But I would argue that we are at a different stage of capitalism, in which acquisition no longer happens militarily - indeed, that using the military to advance economic ends is actually deeply unprofitable. One less reason, then, to have a military at all.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:31:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Ok (2.12 / 8)

    No wonder why the Democratic Party fares so bad among military voters. It's because people like you don't appreciate the armed services and what the troops do for our country.
    •  I expected this one (4.00 / 2)

      So I do hope you read my diary fully. I know a number of people, friends and family, who have served in the military, in World War II and since. I deeply respect what they did. Don't pull that one on me.

      But that appreciation does not mean I see a military, today, as being necessary. I firmly believe that the 'military defends our freedoms' is, in 2004, a falsity. It was not so in the age of World War II, or perhaps even the Cold War, but it is now.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:18:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't mind Jiacinto (none / 0)

        It's a knee-jerk reflex of his to automatically accuse anyone who espouses views contrary to his own of being unpatriotic and bad for the Democratic Party.

        That said, I dug your post, I disagree with the conclusion, I liked the arguments and I'm glad I'm not the one who makes the decision -- because I'd disband the whole military and we'd rue the day.

        Necessary evil. It's not an oxymoron. God, sometimes I hate the human condition.

      •  yeah, ignore him/her (none / 0)

        though I do think your point is kind of silly in the fact that in terms of deployment alone it is important to have a military, in addition to it being a great place to train some of our young men and women, I think it's a healthy mental exercise to consider what life would be like without anything.  

        anyways, here are my reasons for maintaining a military:  Quick deployment, better trained units, research and development, tradition and pride (these are huge, the military is something to be deeply proud of in this country for many reasons), quality of life for young people who may not be able to get out otherwise, keeping other countries from getting uppity.

        and these are just off the top of my head.  But anyways, I feel it's a silly idea, but worth talking about in passing.  like most politics

    •  Institutional issues (none / 0)

      I think we need to be careful to not to conflate critiques of the military as an institution, even one as broad as eugene's, with critiques of those individuals who serve.  The ends to which the military is directed are far beyond the control of the average infantryman.

      Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

      by Linnaeus on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 09:23:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Jesus Christ, you're a broken record (none / 0)

      Seriously... Does your knee just shoot right through your keyboard anytime someone suggests that one of your beloved institutions may be flawed?
  •  A lot of food for thought (none / 0)

    As someone who has spent 15 years working in the military-industrial complex, I actually agree with a lot of what you say. The military is not especially cost effective at achieving the objectives we set for it. We either use it for the wrong function (democracy in Iraq) or we build it up for a potential use we hope never will come (war with USSR back in the day).

    However, you overlook the degree to which our economy is addicted to the military. Defense spending today is spread out state by state and district by district to benefit all of Congress. We derive a lot of technology from military funded research, which drives the economy. Eliminating that military penetration of the economy would be very disruptive to the society as a whole.
    Visualize Whirled Peas

    by Hoya90 on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:19:50 PM PDT

    •  A good point (none / 0)

      However, we have reconverted our economy in the past, and can do so again. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of major infrastructure projects that need to get done that aren't due to lack of funds. Those are good paying jobs, as are health care jobs, as are educational jobs (or at least they could be made better paying as a result of pumping money into them saved from the multibillion defense budget).

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:21:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not conversion, really. (none / 1)

        WWII saw whole civilian industries switched to weapons production. Those industries could then switch back to civilian functions when the war was over. Even then, there were large economic disruptions that resulted.

        What I'm talking about is the military (AND intelligence community) lying at the heart of a large amount of basic research, especially in technology. Our economy still depends on a lot of spin-offs from that military research into lighter, faster, stronger capabilities. You've got to find a way to keep that research going, but with new end uses in mind.

        The real benefit of your post is to challenge the assumptions behind the statement "of course we need a military." By not asking that question, we have allowed the military-industrial complex to grow to the state it has reached today.
        Visualize Whirled Peas

        by Hoya90 on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:56:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I should think that's not so difficult (none / 0)

          Much of the money we spend on military related r&d goes to universities or private companies. People will happily innovate, especially when money is thrown at them to do so.

          You're quite right about my post and questioning assumptions. It seems to me that the military is no longer useful, and that there's nothing stopping us from returning to the model of the early republic except a mental attachment to a big military, an attachment not grounded in reason or reality.

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
          Neither is California High Speed Rail

          by eugene on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 09:01:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  benefits (none / 0)

      But think of the benefits to our civilian culture were these funds rechanneled.
      •  It's the mission, not the benefits... (none / 0)

        I can think of lots of benefits. The challenge is thinking up "problem sets" for the researchers to tackle that will still feed the economy AND be politically viable as a national need. I can come up with a list of problems to solve that will still give the economy the technology it needs. It's coming up with a "sales pitch" to trump "Soldiers defend our freedom, give the soldiers what they need."
        Visualize Whirled Peas

        by Hoya90 on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 09:18:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  You are able to ask this rhetorical question (none / 0)

    only because the US has the strongest military in the world.  If it did not, or if the military was only thought to be mediocre, the contemplation of agression both on our borders and against Americans would be more vivid.  That's not to say there isn't substantial room to rethink military security in a 21st century world.  But as the the US has discovered in Iraq, being perceived the party with overwhelming force, comes with it a greater expectation of responsibility (not less).
    •  Close (none / 1)

      I am able to ask this question, in part, because of how we have used our military in the past. I admit that - but that doesn't alter my argument at all. One, I suggest that our democratic institutions matter just as much as the military in the maintenance of freedoms. Two, I believe we are in a very different situation that we were in even 20 years ago. We do not face any threats from a nation-state that we need a massive military to deal with.

      Further, you claim that "if the military was only thought to be mediocre, the contemplation of agression both on our borders and against Americans would be more vivid.". But my entire point is that this is not at all valid, that there are a welter of economic reasons why countries don't invade other ones.

      Example: The US has a far larger military than Europe combined. The Russian military is no longer a threat, and hell, we could nuke them out of existence via a first strike if they put up a fuss. So why don't we invade Europe?

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:38:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  that must be why (4.00 / 2)

      Western Europe has so much trouble with invasions lately, huh? Because of France & Germany's giant armies? And Japan, with their constitutionally mandated defense-only force, they've been toppled dozens of times now. Oh, wait...
      •  well (none / 0)

        one might argue that they don't need large militaries because they've basically contracted those duties out to us. When the Balkans were erupting during the 90s, it seemed that a lot of the European neighbors were running around wringing their hands and they seemed fairly relieved to see us step in.

        Well, maybe if we didn't have a military, those countries would actually have to fend for themselves.

        On the other hand, there are potential downsides to that too...

        Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

        by JMS on Tue Jun 15, 2004 at 05:38:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  open door (4.00 / 2)

    I must comment on this issue. We don't have the military we do, and we don't exercise our military power the way we do, to ensure our physical security and territorial integrity. we have a military to perpetuate our global political economy that is based on free trade and free capital flows. I could go into much detail, but am too tired to do so here. needless to say, in WWII, we fought to ensure that the great eurasian landmass, europe and asia, was not run by potentially autarkic regimes, germany and japan respectively. if these regions were closed off and we were unable to trade with them, we would have to turn ourselves into a 'garrison state' at home. one power, nazi germany, would be in control of the rich european continent, and would be in possession of enough resources (human, natural, etc.) that could be converted into military power that could reach across the atlantic and physically threaten the US. also, you can look at it as preserving the american standard of living by having sufficient markets for our exports to go. for a greater treatment of this, I recommend you see Melvin Leffler, "A Preponderance of Power", and William Appleman Williams, "The tragedy of American diplomacy". Leffler also has a shorter book in which he lays out his argument in a much shorter space.
    •  Brilliant (none / 0)

      I agree fully. That interpretation of WWII, the correct one (if anyone were to bother to learn about that war from FDR's war correspondence and not from "The Longest Day"), is one that influenced importantly my own diary entry. I wish more people understood World War II in that light.

      I would suggest, though, that the need to use the military to secure economic space has passed. We've won that battle with 1989.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:41:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not to imagine (none / 0)

    How vulnerable our international trade (ships, planes) would be without the protection (whether present or threat of retaliatiom) provided by the military.

    One of just the many reasons we need a military.

    •  Vulnerable to what? (none / 0)

      What country would engage in such attacks? There's little chance they'd be able to remain secret, and once such info got out, that country would be in a world of economic hurt.

      One could suggest piracy as something a military could help solve...yet we have a big navy, and piracy still is a big problem...

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:59:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Perhaps not a military, but definitely (4.00 / 2)

    a Pilsbury. Not much fond of major corporations either, but those cinammon buns are delish, and ever so convenient.

    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

    by spot on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08:59:59 PM PDT

  •  A lucid argument (4.00 / 3)

    at a time when it's desperately needed.

    I've become quite skeptical of the necessity of the military, and it's good to know that I'm not the only one thinking the same things.

    It seems to me that recently (especially since 9-11) there has been a deliberate attempt to force this country to swallow militarism, and the shocking part is that the country would appear to be gleefully gulping it down.

    A customer came into the store I work at today wearing a New York State National Guard T-shirt, with the logo of whichever division her husband served in. She and my manager started discussing how the NYSNG had brought some of its Blackhawk helicopters to the elementary school (literally right around the corner) to take kids on flights around town. Both of them heartily agreed that it was good for the kids. I was absolutely horrified.

    Until my stepbrother began receiving weekly calls from military recruiters, I was oblivious to one of the more insidious parts of No Child Left Behind that forces schools to turn over student information to DoD for recruiting purposes. (They stopped calling when he told them flat out that he would never pass a drug test.)

    And, of course, there's the onslaught of TV ads talking up the glory of the military. If you've seen any of the latest Army, Navy, or Air Force ads (especially the ones on the Cartoon Network[!], MTV, Fuse, and other youth-oriented stations and programs) you know what I'm talking about.

    But I've always been a big fan of the Sixth Commandment. And the military, by definition, is anathema to that.

    Finish your beer. There are sober people in China.

    by xinhoj on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 09:26:43 PM PDT

  •  Historical quote. (4.00 / 2)


    Relevant? Maybe. Amusing? Yes.

    "A standing army is like an erect penis- an excellent assurance of domestic tranquility, but a dangerous temptation to foreign adventure."
             - Elbridge Gerry, at the Constitutional Convention

    Democrats are here to remind us that life is unfair. Republicans are here to make sure it is.

    by spitonmars on Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 10:33:51 PM PDT

  •  Great merit (none / 0)

    The central arguement of this diary has great merit, but it asks the wrong question. The question should be 'why do we need a standing army?'

    Even if we did not have an standing army, airforce, or marine corps, or even coast guard (which I would argue for keeping in any case), America still has two devastating weapons to keep any enemies in check. Our nuclear missile fleet, deliverable anywhere in the world, is the ultimate deterent. Second is our military CAPACITY due to our economic might. By increasing the size and efficiency of our economy in ridding ourselves of the inefficient military-industrial complex, that capacity for military action might even be enhanced. I would thus argue that scrapping our standing army could enhance our military power.

    When we entered the penultimate military struggle of the last century, WWII, we had only a bare remnant of the military machine we built for WWI. We had to rebuild the military from the ground up in order to enter that war. In many ways that process helped us. Our opponents, having recently built up their militaries, were using the latest technology. If we had been fighting from stocks from the last war, we would have been slaughtered. Our industrialists, weapons labs, and commanders had to build from the ground up to meet the particular threat and create new ways of war-fighting as they went.

    Now, there is a good argument that the professionalization of the officer corps and the stability of demand for weaponry created by a standing army has pushed our military tech and tactics far beyond our competition, but that ever-widening advantage must be balanced against the 50% of Federal revenues devoted to the project. Is complete dominance worth the costs? Perhaps we can find good ways to maintain dominance without the standing army? Computer modelling? Limited production proto-typing? Redoubling research and bypassing production cycles entirely? Who knows what might be accomplished with 100 billion a year of pure defense research?

    I believe that we must retain a professional corps of officers to seed needed force expansions in a crisis, and that we should continue to spend substantially of defense-related research, and I think that people would not politically tolerate the abscence of a ready reserve of troops, even if it were only a reasonably sized militia and not a volunteer professional standing army. You can reduce the army to a nub if people feel secure, but you can never eliminate it. Many of the resources and personnel used for a standing army now that does not actually meet the current crop of realistic security threats, most notably terrorism, could be redirected in programs of homeland security which are actually well-funded and designed rather than a political ass-cover.

    To accomplish a massive reduction in forces, materiel, and acquisitions, you would have to close several hundred bases around the world, having an unknown impact on world stability and economics. You would have cast loose major industries to compete in consumer markets causing massive economic dislocations, however dampened by the international arms markets. There are likely to be economic consequences of a quite significant nature as hundreds of thousands of soliders hit the labor market, bases are closed all over the country, and local markets lose the revenues from arms industries. It would be a political feat of major proportions.

    Unfortunately, the only circumstances in which I see it occuring is if our balance of payments gets so out of control that creditors demand austerity measures including major budget cuts. Defense spending may then be the only viable target for major cuts to Federal spending. If we HAVE to wack 100 billion of more out of the Federal budget, we mght have a chance to eliminate the standing army created as a response to the Cold War, in favor of a 'Virtual Army' which can spring into being to meet serious threats to American security. A lovely side effect is that Cowboy Presidents won't have nearly the means to meddle in the affairs of other nations and trash international law.

    George W. Bush does not want you to read the above...

    by mbryan on Tue Jun 15, 2004 at 02:34:01 AM PDT

  •  this is one of those moments (none / 0)

    where, because I'm pretty sure it won't happen, I'd love to run a simulation to see what would really happen if we disbanded our military. There are a lot of theories running around, but it would be difficult to know unless it happened. Maybe nothing would happen and it would turn out that we didn't need a military after all. Maybe we'd suddenly get invaded. Maybe while we wouldn't get invaded, we'd find other countries not taking us very seriously anymore.

    Myself personally, I think we do need a military, but let's keep it small and efficient. One of the reasons we need a military is that there is a stock of military knowledge (about how to fight, tactics, etc.) that would be lost and would be very difficult to recreate if we had no military at all. Say we did have to defend the country all of a sudden. I'd rather have people with training organizing things than a bunch of militias (if you ask me, that's much scarier than having a military. I'd be pretty afraid of the militias too).

    Also, an interesting byproduct of militaries and wars is that they can rapidly speed the rate of innovation, and not just in destructive (better weapons!) ways. I'm not saying wars are justified because now we have med-e-vac helicoptors or anything, but for those who think the military has no redeeming value, they do seem to get some of the inertia off of our efforts to develop certain technologies.

    Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

    by JMS on Tue Jun 15, 2004 at 05:47:29 AM PDT

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