Fuel-Efficient Top Ten List. Where's Detriot?

Saw this article on msn.com and thought long and hard about whether it was diary worthy.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=2885&src=msn&GT1=3491

What really burns me here is where are the American auto-makers?  Why, when the price of gas is such a hot button issue, and we are involved in a campaign that puts us at odds with the oil rich countries of the world, are we not having a serious discussion about our oil dependency?

The reason I don't buy American cars is that they consistantly do not offer what I want most.

Clearly, the arguement can be framed that you are fianacing those that seek to do us harm.  Arianna Huffington and Bill Mahar tried to draw a similar argument about 2 years ago and was shouted out as being anti-SUV=anti-American.  Now with the price of gas so high, how would such a campaign fair?

I have felt for some time that our oil dependence elevates the middle-east and gives them their power.  Why are we not addressing that more actively?  Besides voting with our dollars and buying more fuel-efficient cars, what can we do?

•  Tip-Jar

  My first diary.  Please be gentle.  Thanks for any mojo.

  by zubalove on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:11:00 AM PDT

•  Couple comments

  First, I don't think all those VWs should be on the list; or rather, there should be a separate list for diesel engines so as to compare aples to apples.

  Second, it takes several years to get new product designs through the system, so when looking at current car models we're seeing the results of several years of particularly cheap American gas.  Current events haven't made it into production lines yet.  Give 'em a bit of time or look at the curent R&D allocations.  Heck, Daimler Chrysler just released (announced?) a production electric vehicle in Europe that gets 40 miles on a seven hour charge.  

  by AP on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:19:23 AM PDT

  •  Follow-up to point #1

    The list as presented in that article can be condensed to:

    -Honda hybrids
    -Toyota hybrids
    -small Toyota ICEs

    If the list weren't quite so short it'd go on to include:

    -small Honda ICEs
    -small Dodge ICEs (Neon)
    -small BMW ICEs (Mini)

    Full data available at http://www.fueleconomy.gov
    

    by AP on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:41:16 AM PDT

  •  Better List

    Here's a better list.

    No diesel.  The first one is compressed natural gas, but the rest are regular, so to speak.
    

    by Damek on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:55:44 AM PDT

  •  no excuse

    Detroit has been absent from this list for the better part of a decade.  Noe of this big three can come up with a car that gets 32/38?  Please, the Model T got 25mpg.

    We need to cut off all subsides to Detroit and let them hang on their own greed.  Billions of taxpayer money has gone into 'R&D' and what do we get - every year Ford says ' oh, but next year the hybrid SUV is coming out', and every year they postpone.

    We need to follow the lead of Paris - no SUV's allowed on the streets.

    God this pisses me off.

    by green in brooklyn on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 09:59:22 AM PDT

•  Affordability Goes Beyond Gas

  I have a Honda Civic, in part because of the gas mileage and relatively low emissions.

  But the hybrid Civic cost an extra $6,000. Undoubtedly the hybrid technology is more expensive, but I couldn't afford the extra cost.

  So why don't the feds offer big juicy tax credits for hybrids the way they just did for obscenely wasteful SUVs?

  by bramish on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:24:37 AM PDT

  •  Why?

    Because they're not interested in the "little guy" that is the backbone of this country.  For this administration, it's about helping their own kind.

    by VA6thDem on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:27:26 AM PDT

  •  Mercantilism

    Juicy tax credit to encourage buying a foreign product?  What administration have you been living under?

    by AP on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:30:00 AM PDT

  •  Kerry will

    As I understand it, that's part of his environmental plan.

    by ChicagoDem on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:35:04 AM PDT

  •  I understand that there already are

    some tax credits and that one of the main reasons industry explores the area at all is the tax credit incentive.

    by ohwilleke on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 08:03:40 AM PDT

    •  Confirmation on Tax Credits

      We ordered a Prius a couple of months ago.  The Feds give a $1500 credit this year ($2000 last year, $1000 next year).  The state of Colorado gives a credit of about $2700 for a Prius for this year.

      by Blue the Wild Dog on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 08:12:51 AM PDT

•  Listen

  American automakers are just not interested in making a fuel effecient car.  Size and glitz are Detroit's stock in trade.  They will only begin making fuel effecient vehicles when they have to.  

  Personally, I don't buy American cars because they're crap.  I've onwed one GMC in my life and it spent more time in the shop than in the garage.  My father, the loyal Ford buyer, has had three Ford's since I bought my Toyota which now bosts 189,000 miles and uses no oil.  I'm finally going to buy a new Matrix and it's only a few grand more than what I paid for the Corolla nearly a decade ago.  

  PLUS, as I like to tell people that Toyota is built right here in the good old USA by unionized American workers.  The wages stay here in this country to the benefit of American workers.  That GMC, for the most part, was hecho en Mexico.  

  The foreign car companies, the big ones, anyway, have good business models and they build solid products...that's why people buy them.  It's Detroit that has had to map out the niche market and that market is big giant flashy, dangerous gas guzzlers...just like the 50's!

  by CrazyHorse on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:39:34 AM PDT

  •  Good point

    Toyota's major manufacturing plant is in Kentucky.  Ford's is in Mexico City.

    So why buy American again?

    by ChicagoDem on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:45:10 AM PDT

    •  Exactly...

      ...I don't really mind if a little profit wings its way to Japan...I think that score is settled.  If you care about working people, then you have to care about where the wages go.  Ford calls itself an "American" company, but look at where it's cars and parts are manufactured.

      Jerry

      by CrazyHorse on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 07:48:25 AM PDT

    •  I have more relatives working for Honda

      in Ohio, than I have ever had working for GM or Ford or Chrysler (the formerly U.S. firm).

      by ohwilleke on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 08:05:14 AM PDT

•  The history says a lot.

  Gas prices have consistently been something on the order of double in Europe and Japan what they are in the United States for decades.  Much of this is a policy of having high gas taxes, part of it is higher oil prices than the U.S. has paid (as Europe has a quite limited oil industry (mostly the North Sea), and Japan has none, while the U.S. has Texas, the Gulf Coast and Alaska).

  As a result, fuel efficiency and alternatives to driving like high speed and intracity public transporation, has mattered much more to consumers in Europe and Japan who have also been interested in smaller cars for other reasons.  These areas also have far higher population density than most of the U.S. on average, making the traffic v. public transit equation, costs of major roads and parking areas, and particularly in Europe, street size, more serious issues than in the U.S.  Multiple forces have conspired to make a small car more of an advantage than a disadvantage.

  It isn't terribly surprising then, that the public is more responsive to better fuel efficiency cars in European and Japanese markets which partially sustain these developments, and that these companies have a greater head start.

  by ohwilleke on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 08:02:35 AM PDT

•  I love repeating this...

  Our two cars are both hybrids: a 2001 Prius and a 2004 Civic.

  We purchased these vehicles to do our part in conserving the environment. We did not do a cost-analysis on whether the better mileage would pay off the additional cost of the hybrid system. We just figured that it was the right thing to do.

  by Ray in TX on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 10:11:11 AM PDT

•  affordable

  What I want is a list of fuel efficient used cars.  I would never buy a brand new car.  They lose at least 25% of their value the moment you drive it off the lot.

  Do all of the fuel efficient cars maintain that level of efficiency when they are 5 or 10 or more years old.  

  My old Mazda pick up truck from '85 got 35 mpg (city/highway mixed).  We bought it in '02 and only had it for 6 months before my spouse totalled it.  There's no good reason that a similar sized pick up from the twenty first century shouldn't have better gas mileage.

  by Sedge on Wed Jun 23, 2004 at 10:22:31 AM PDT