Daily Kos

Gratuitous late summer Tribute to Dean Democrats...

Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 08:20:37 AM PDT

Out of the smoldering embers of the Dean Presidential campaign, 1000 points of light are emerging nationwide. It was just over a year ago that the Democratic Party leadership stated that we wouldn't be able to retake the US house until 2012. Now suddenly the Party is imbued with a new spirit of optimism. Why? Because, that cold day in Iowa when the DLC and the Republican right-wing breathed a sigh of relief as the Dean campaign went down in defeat--few people noticed that the Dean movement continued to fight on undaunted..
Look around the country. House races that haven't been in play for decades are competitive thanks to Dean Democrats. Fifteen-term Congressman Henry Hyde faces an uncertain political future thanks to a very serious challenge from political newcomer and Dean activist, Christine Cegelis.

http://www.cegelisforcongress.com/

Deep in the heart of Texas, the most powerful man in Congress, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay has his back to the wall against previously little-known Richard Morrison, who has tapped Dean Democrats and raised over a quarter a million dollars. After ten terms in Congress, DeLay has been forced to open a campaign office in his "safe" District for the first time, and then he opened a second office. After spending 900,000 dollars, DeLay still is polling below 50% and clings to a small lead (49-39%) in a District where no previous challenger has ever come within 20% of him in any of ten previous elections!!
Morrison seems unafraid of DeLay and unafraid to invite Dean to share a fundraising brunch with him in a conservative District (brunch is next weekend).

http://www.richardmorrisonfordistrict22.com/

Races once thought unthinkable are becoming competitive. Throughout the nation, the best and brightest House candidates are not old party stalwarts with hefty legislative resumes, but fresh faces from the Dean movement determined to retake Republican seats nobody else thought could be won. Without deferring to the conventional wisdom of the party that said such seats were out of reach, Dean Democrats have taken the fight anywhere and everywhere. Among the Democrats most likely to take over Republican held seats, Dean's list candidates are leading the charge...

Samara Barend in New York   http://www.samaraforcongress.com/index.shtml

Patsy Keever in North Carolina  http://www.keeverforcongress.com/

Paul Babbitt in Arizona  http://www.paulbabbitt.com/

In my state, Missouri-- candidates like Liz Hagar Mace won an August primary by 100 votes and Jeff Smith finished a very close second in a ten way congressional race and is now on Claire McCaskill's staff.

Howard Dean has inspired a new generation of Democrats who stand up and fight and who inspire rather than ignore the grassroots of the party. Dean People have taken the fight to unexpected places and shown results.

On that cold January day in Iowa, Dean's fire wasn't extinguished because the embers kept burning and come November those embers could spark a transformation of the American political system and light up the political map on election night.

When the Democratic inferno can't be contained on election night by George W. Bush or Tom DeLay or the Republicans in the Missouri State House it will be largely because Howard Dean and his supporters kept the fire lit and never stopped fighting.

Tags: (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 211 comments

  •  Well said. (4.00 / 34)

    The Democrats can thank Howard Dean for those of us who aren't running for office, but had never previously contributed to a campaign before, who now donate to candidates in races far from our home states.

    Personally, I thank Dr. Dean for showing me a way to bring the energy and political awareness - which had been bubbling in my system all along - to this national fight for the country's life.

    "The concentration [of the legislative, executive and judicial powers] in the same hands is precisely the definition of despotic government." - Jefferson

    by El Payo on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 12:33:11 PM PDT

    •  Thats the truth.... (4.00 / 35)

      Like you, I suddenly began donating to candidates in states far away that I haven't even visited. I'm going to be such a geek on election night, when I start tracking 75 House races and my friends in Missouri will be wondering why I am hooting and hollering because someone named Diane Farrell in Connecticut or Lois Murphy in Pennsylvania won a House Race 1000 miles away.

      "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful...They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." --Bush

      by Keith Brekhus on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 12:41:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong (4.00 / 11)

        Your friends in Missouri will be there cheering alongside of you. At least I will :-)

        It's a shame that the vast number of Democrats never had the chance to get to know Dean and his supporters better. The sense of solidarity, community and purpose that I've found there is so much stronger than what I've seen elsewhere in the party, that it would have been a great thing, in my opinion, had the Party had the time to absorb more of it.

        And it ain't over.

        Fabulous post, Keith

        "Ask a glass of water"

        by Del in MO on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 03:22:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll see you on election night... (none / 0)

          we might have to find a pub close enough to the County Clerk's office so we can have a runner run back and forth in a drunken stupor with results like on primary night :-). Or maybe they will have a keg and balloons at Dem headquarters.

          "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful...They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." --Bush

          by Keith Brekhus on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 10:06:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Anyone in KC want to suggest an election watching (none / 0)

            place for Kos/Dean folks?

            McCain and Lobbyists; McCain on NAFTA

            by ETinKC on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 11:10:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  This Tuesday night (none / 0)

            is the central committee meeting. There was talk about having all the candidates staging their parties at the HQ for election night instead of being scattered around town. One person was against it ( said it would be too small ) another wanted to have it at the fair grounds........and at the end of the evening it was decided why not have it at HQ! So if you go Tuesday, a couple of us should bring it up again. For the alcohol matter obtaining a picnic license for the day is all that is needed.
    •  Dean Volunteers a godsend (4.00 / 17)

      Here in Flagstaff, the Dean people are the new set of dedicated volunteers for the Democratic Party.  Two of them helped set up and network the new party office, plus all the others manning the office. They've entered floats into local parades, canvassed for Babbitt and the party, put up signs around town.  Many of the volunteers for the big Kerry event last weekend were Deaniacs.  I'm one of them, though I had already been a volunteer for the party before last year.  

      Our DFA group is still going strong as we continue to do voter registrations every week and at special events.  We are putting together a Democracy Weekend for early fall with speakers, booths, music, and films.  So, we are becoming experienced fundraisers too.

      God bless Howard Dean.

    •  I had never written a letter to a stranger... (4.00 / 2)

      Now, thanks to Dr. Dean, I send a letter to a battleground state every single day.  Thank you, Dr. Dean.
  •  And if Obama goes on to be a big player (4.00 / 15)

    Dean's Partisans had a strong hand in that primary as well.

    That scream is starting to look like Obi Wan Kenobi getting struck down by Vader in Star Wars Episode IV.

    THAT'S who Vader is!  The SCLM!

    "There is good in you.  I can sense it."

    "The SCLM is more machine than human now."

    •  I like that analogy (4.00 / 5)

      "strike me down and I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine". :)
      •  Actually, the text of his speech was like that (4.00 / 10)

        He said we'd take each and every one of the states.
        It just wasn't as President.
        And the SCLM scoffed, and struck him down, and a million Luke Skywalkers came into their own.
        •  I wondered at the time (4.00 / 8)

          if this would happen. I knew that for myself, I wanted to elect Dean to feel safe again. I didn't get active with the idea of making a permenant lifestyle change, but to make an effort prior to moving to Canada.

          Dean going down inspired people to make a long term commitment they very well may not have made otherwise. With him at the helm it would feel safe to stop paying so much attention. And, as President he would be to busy to continue leading the movement. Movements need a leader, or they fade away. Dean was the perfect guy for the movement because he never gives up. When he failed to get a single payer plan through in his state, he shifted to a piecemeal aproach.

          Al Sadr will fight to the death because either way he wins.

          •  Dean was very clear that (none / 1)

            taking back the WH was not enough and he was the only DEM candidate to state this and encourage greater participation at the local level from very early in his campaign.

            What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

            by Marie on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 08:23:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  underlying theme (4.00 / 11)

    While reading your diary, one theme kept popping up over and over. That of Dean democrats not only standing up and fighting, but when defeated they keep going. Like Dean, Vicki Walker in KC since losing narrowly has been marching forward extolling people to keep fighting for the rights of all.  Not a single peep about the loss. The caliber of Dean Democrats continue to impress me.
    •  The triumph of activism (4.00 / 16)

      The Chair of the county party stood up in front of the Central Committee and credited the Dean folks for the unprecedented energy seen in the party. He's eighty years old so he ought to know.

      Part of the problem with the Democratic Party in recent years is that it has defined itself as an electoral machine - with its only purpose to win elections as opposed to building an ongoing activism. One problem with this is that once an election is over, everybody goes home for two or four years. All momentum is stopped and the Republicans have a clear field to build their strength.

      To keep the party healthy between elections you need a sense of activism - a cause to keep fighting for. Since the Dean movement is all about continuing activism, we might be influential enough to stop this cycle and keep the momentum between elections and enter the next election cycle with a measure of strength and purpose.

      "Ask a glass of water"

      by Del in MO on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 03:51:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup, the core reality (4.00 / 7)

        Part of the problem with the Democratic Party in recent years is that it has defined itself as an electoral machine - with its only purpose to win elections as opposed to building an ongoing activism.

        Much of the party allowed itself to forget the good aspects of old time ward politics.  Be around locally, tied in, active.  If, in places to start with and then expanding, the party can get back to this, ti will only help.  And will stve off many problems before they happen.

      •  Well, on the other hand (none / 0)

        It has been a very long time since we've needed "activists" in order to have fiscal responsibility and clean drinking water.

        Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's ass. - Barry Goldwater, 1981

        by Doug in SF on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 12:10:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And once upon a time (none / 0)

          people across the board took an interest in politics. An active interest. In my generation politics was viewed like sports. Either you were way into sports and the players or you weren't. Politics isn't sport. It shouldn't be at least. Politics should be about government, about governing, about the people. And that takes people to be involved, engaged, plugged in. Which they haven't been for a long time.

          Activists are typically one issue. Issues that overlap, but boil down to one general field. Political activism extends beyond single issues.

  •  God I hope not (4.00 / 6)

    I hope that Dean does not end up being a political 'ghost'. He still has a couple elections ahead of him to win.
  •  And where are the Dem Insiders? (4.00 / 15)

    And just where are the Dem Insiders anyway?  

    I recently asked a Dem house candidate that if we bought a ticket would they fly to Texas and help out Richard Morrison?  The rather disappointing reply was 'only if the DCCC approved it'.  

    So when the upsets come... it will not be because of any great strategy on the part of the Dem Insiders.  It will likely be *in spite of the DCCC' instead of because of them.  

    I for one have not forgotten the Torricelli Wing of the Democratic party and I have not forgotten the 'grasstops' efforts by the DCCC and their K street advisors.  

    In the next cycle, the internet saavy will be leading, not just second-class allies in the multi-election effort to take our country back.       And some corpocroc cash addicted Dems have got to go as well.

    RMD

    The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

    by RedMeatDem on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 01:28:40 PM PDT

    •  Speaking of Dean and the DCCC (4.00 / 9)

      I share the sentiment in what you wrote, which is why I found it incredibly interesting that Dean's DFA and the DCCC have joined forces to create a joint fundraising committee and are hosting a joint event in Seattle later this month honoring both Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi.

      I may be reading too much in to that development, but I (optimistically) take it as a sign that the DCCC has a growing appreciation for DFA's strategy and realizes that, while supporting "longshot" candidates may not be their core mission, supporting and promoting DFA will be beneficial in the long run.  What do  you think?

      •  DCCC plus DFA (4.00 / 14)

        It does seem odd that the DCCC and the DFA would form a partnership at this particular moment. It's not like DFA is such a powerhouse that the Party needs their help for fundraising. Besides Dean and the DFA are already doing everything they can to help the Democrat cause so why should they pay for what they are already getting for free?

        And if it is true that Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean will share the honors stage that is even stranger still. Why should she do this now?

        Could it be (all conjecture here) that Dean has been tapped to be the next Chair of the DNC? This could be the party's way of subtly beginning the endorsement process - with Nancy embracing Dean into the family. The joint fundraising project could be the first step in merging DFA into the DNC structure. Kerry has to do something with Dean, a guy he talks to nearly every week for strategy sessions, and where would be a better place for him?  It would also mark Kerry's signal that the Clinton hold on the party was over.

        I've turned several possible explanations over in my mind but that is the scenario that makes the most sense to me - nothing else really works. If, in the near future, you see Howard holding hands with Tom Daschle I'd say it's a slam dunk.

        If this speculation is true, the DNC would get a Chair unlike they've ever had. Instead of the fat-cat, Washington powerbroker, they would have someone who was focused on building the party from the grassroots, creating a farm club of new candidates downticket, taking the battle to the Republicans everywhere and generating enthusiasm in the party that hasn't happened in decades.

        "Ask a glass of water"

        by Del in MO on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 03:17:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  not only did DFA and DCCC form a partnership (4.00 / 4)

          but they hired members of the Dean Internet team to do their strategy.  Nicco, the former webmaster and his new firm eccoditto are the people behind the scenes over at D-trip.
          •  Pelosi and Dean (none / 1)

            Makes sense to me.  Pelosi is actually beloved in her own cd and known as a liberal/progressive.  I think they are realizing that Governor Dean gave the party back its voice and they're showing their respect.  

            Our party must consolidate the progressive base if we are ever going to win without triangulation.  

            This is a positive move!

        •  I like the smell of it (4.00 / 6)

          That certainly sounds about right.  Dean has been letting loose with the grenades in the way that you want your chair to do it.  I also think that, from Kerry's point of view, that is a great place to put Dean.  Howard gets to remove the Clinton/Corporate apparatus and lessen the Hilary threat from the inside.  Dean can raise the cash and get the voters to show up.  

          Further, Howard isn't doing anything politically until Leahy or Jeffords retires.  

          Finally, it fits with the Godfather theory of Government:  Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

          Enjoy every sandwich-Warren

          by barr on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 07:41:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I agree....almost (none / 0)

          I agree with all but one of the points you make, and I think Dean would be a great chairman.

          However I don't think he will leave Vermont for anything except the presidency.  His wife still has her practice and hes got a cause to work on that's only blocks from his house.  From the time I spent with him I got the impression that he wants to take some time off after the election and catch up with his reading.

          The one theory I would advance is that the DCCC is trying to control Dean, and use his supporters in a more targeted fashion.  

          Also, is the rule against coordination between campaigns and 527s also imply that coordination between a 527 and a political party illeagal?  If so I doubt Dean would leave DFA for the DNC.

  •  Sun (1.44 / 18)

    And Dean is the reason why the Sun shines each day!

    Please. The real reason for all the optimism is because Bush has made severe mistakes. Everything else is secondary.

    •  All hail mighty Bush (3.94 / 17)

      All hail mighty Bush, He who controls all world events.  We are but as pieces of cardboard in the shadow of His magnificence.  All things good or bad flow from Bush.  The universe is his to lose...
    •  Except Bush was making mistakes in 2002... (4.00 / 25)

      and Gephardt and Daschle and a whole host of other Democrats followed him into the abyss for fear of being unpatriotic.

      I called this a "gratuitous" post, becasue I don't think Dean alone should get credit. In addition to Dean--

      Michael Moore, Markos Zuniga and other liberal bloggers, Kerry/Edwards, Nancy Pelosi, all the strong House and Senate candidates, and yes even many in the Democratic Party leadership deserve credit for a unified opposition that now is making an effort to retake the White House, the Senate and the US House.

      At least from where I am standing in Mid-Missouri, this is a very different Democratic party than the one I saw roll over and play dead two years ago. I remember Dick Gephardt standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Bush in the Rose Garden
      touting support for the Iraq War and I remember Jean Carnahan running a feeble Seante campaign emphasizing how often she voted with Bush, and I remember Bob Holden's PR disaster in 2000 of a million dollar inaugral ball that forever crippled him.

      I also remember the Democrats getting their asses kicked that November, and listening to people give up on 2004 and even 2008, thinking Bush and the Republicans were too strong to beat for the next 6-8 years. From where I am sitting, I am glad that the days of Vichy-Democrats are dying in the show-me-state.

      "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful...They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." --Bush

      by Keith Brekhus on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 02:20:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dean (1.46 / 15)

        Dean fired up people who'd be voting for us anyway. And he turned off people in the middle. Kerry has fixed that.
        •  aoeu (4.00 / 5)

          If you say so.

          turtles consider
          every single vote deeply
          yet always vote dem

          by TealVeal on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 04:16:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe (4.00 / 15)

          Maybe he fired up the people who'd vote for us anyways... to do more than just vote.  Like give money to get the message out. To register voters.  To drive people to the polls in November.

          You know, the kind of stuff that can win a close election.

          There are a lot of folks who think that you win elections not by playing to the middle, but by galvanizing your supporters to actually increase their numbers at the polls. It's just as  unprovable a premise as yours.

          Finally, the people I met at my Dean meetups were "people in the middle". We even had Republicans there.  Most of them were middle-aged to senior citizen moderates, which again is far from the picture painted by the SCLM of Dean's denizens of pierced youths.

          I don't think Kerry beat Dean because he appealed to the middle. If anything, scrutiny of their records in office could easily lead one to believe that Dean, not Kerry, was the more centrist candidate.  The thing that worked for Kerry was this: he won Iowa.  And the Democrats were committed to back a winner to face off against Bush.  

          Most of us predicted that the winner in Iowa would take all the marbles and that's exactly how it played out.

          For every on of your assertions there are thoughtful, contrary and plausible alternatives. You'd do yourself a favor by trying to support your statements rather than just put them out there as if they were Objective Truths.  It'd be a lot more persuasive.

          The times, they are a-changin'

          by Malacandra on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 05:08:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  yeah right (4.00 / 6)

          Dean fired up the left middle and the right...

          you obviously did not follow the campaign

          DLC Centrism assumes that if Democrats move to the right the Republicans are going to stand still.

          by Genf on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 05:14:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  well, that's interesting nonsense (4.00 / 13)

          seeing as I never voted in my 46 years, and the only reason I'm involved is because of Howard Dean. And I'm not the only one, contrary to the nonsense from people who fear what Howard and we are becoming.

          the next Democratic Party: disciplined joy, righteous smarts and clean money...

          by tokyoterri4dfa on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 08:04:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Dean did fire people up (4.00 / 20)

          While it is true that I would have voted against Bush no matter what, without Dean firing me up I would never have done any of the following:

          -Contributed hundreds of dollars to Kerry's campaign (Howard got me in the habit)

          -Spent a couple hundred more dollars on Kerry gear, most of which I've given away

          -Changed my registration from Independent to Democrat (I'm here to stay)

          -Help host a Kerry Convention party (over 60 attendees! in a small town)

          -Joined my local Women Democrats organization

          -Work on a state representative and congressional candidate race.

          Now multiply me times thousands and thousands of Deaniacs across country. Think we have no affect? Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

          "[Republicans] swapped principle for power. They ended up with neither. They deserved to lose." --Alan Greenspan

          by lanshark on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 08:21:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I would have voted and nothing else (4.00 / 9)

          Because of Dean I've become part of an organized group who have organized candidate debates, yard sale fundraisers that have funneled thousands of dollars into pro-Kerry anti-Bush 527s and have also become a donor to multiple campaigns myself.

          Without Dean to fire up the base, Kerry would not be in the position he is now.

          Dean served a useful function and energized the grassroots. We needed that.

          Donate to progressive Missouri local, state, and national candidates at my ActBlue page! http://www.actblue.com/page/waynemo

          by Wayne in Missouri on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 10:11:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  no longer just voting (wrng: long post) (4.00 / 18)

          I think my story is a common one this election cycle. I used to vote in every election, and bitch a lot in between, write letters to congresspeople, give money to issue groups, that's about it. Then something happened...

          mid-2003: I hear some good things about some guy from Vermont named Dean via the MoveOn straw primary. Visit something called Blog for America, read more. Give him 50 bucks, first "electoral" political donation in 19 years as a registered Democrat.

          Fall 2003: Learn more, find like-minded folks via Deanspace, give more money, send an impassioned and unprecedented political email to just about everybody I know promoting Dean for president.

          January 2004: Write letters to voters in other states, make phone calls, start my own mini-campaign to take, er, certain domain names out of circulation, attend my first Meetup. I had never before volunteered for a candidate for public office.

          February: Continue as above, including my first donation to my DeLay-redistricted congressman and first yard sign. (Mr. Doggett won handily, thank you.) Stand on busy street corner with Dean for America signs. Informed that in my state, each precinct has a caucus the evening after the primary voting in March that apportions some of the delegates to the state party convention, a fact I had been unaware of for 19 years.

          March: Bummed by end of Dean's campaign, but committed to continuing involvement with presidential and downballot elections. I check with my precinct chair to ensure everything is in order for the precinct convention/caucus. He recruits me to chair said convention. I do, then am elected precinct delegation chair for our county convention. Go to county convention, at which approximately 75% of those in attendance had, like me, never been to a county convention before. Elected delegate to state convention, Dean presidential preference.

          April-May: Get sworn in as a deputy voter registrar, register about 50 people here and there, learn to like Kerry, help out with Dean-inspired group called Democracy for Texas.

          June: Attend state party convention, sign in as Kerry delegate. First-time attendance percentage similar to my county convention, overall attendance way up from 2000. Democracy for Texas draws about 350 to a caucus, 400 to a grassroots training workshop. At exhibit booth, sign up steady stream of visitors for DFT and hear a lot of Dean nostalgia among delegates. Help elect "Dean people" as national delegates.

          July: Start spending way too much time at places called "Daily Kos" and "Eschaton." Attend DFT subcommittee meetings. Cough up dough for Kerry, Richard Morrison, David Van Os, DFT, DFA. Try to figure out where to put more yard signs for local Democratic candidates. Help promote DFT Meetup; over 200 people show.

          August: Help promote DFT Meetup; over 200 people show again. Sign up for DFA/21st Century Dems weekend grassroots organizing seminar, commit to helping promote it, find out that's not necessary because 500 people sign up for 400 slots. Still have to write news release for upcoming Dean appearance in my hometown.

          To be continued, until the world completely goes to hell in a handbasket or we pull it back from the brink.

          Yeah, I probably would have voted for anything with a D after its name in November. But Dean inspired me to take my proper responsibility as a citizen for who gets elected, instead of just whine about it. I won't sit down and shut up again.

          "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." ~ Harry S Truman

          by another Democrat in Texas on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 11:42:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  GRRREAAT POST! (4.00 / 4)

            I too have been inspired (former clark supporter). After Kerry is president, we will have much more work to do. I sense this is the beginning of a movement that historians will write about and a good portion of the credit goes to Howard Dean.

            Impossible is nothing

            by DrSpike on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 12:43:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  aw shucks, thanks (none / 1)

              We have quite a few Clarkies in DFT. My alternate for the state convention was also a Clarkie, who moved over from the GOP to support the general. She said she realized that the Republican Party was NOT the party of her parents nor the one she had thought she was supporting.

              I always had a soft spot for Republicans for Dean!

              "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." ~ Harry S Truman

              by another Democrat in Texas on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 08:39:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  please give a report! (none / 0)

                on the Dean event! and thanks for being involved!
                •  Will try to do that (none / 0)

                  "Dean Dozen" endorsees Richard Morrison, who is opposing Tom DeLay, and David Van Os, who is the lone Democrat running for an all-Republican Texas Supreme Court, are also set to speak. U.S. Rep. Doggett has been invited but no word yet.

                  Looks like it won't rain but it will be hot (mid-90s at least).

                  I hope to be able to report a helluva crowd. There will be at least 400 attendees, since that's the number of workshop participants who will already be on campus, but we're expecting a lot more folks, as the local party, progressive organizations and connected people get the word out.

                  "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." ~ Harry S Truman

                  by another Democrat in Texas on Tue Aug 17, 2004 at 06:09:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Report on Dean rally in Austin Aug. 22 (none / 0)

                    You ask, I deliver...

                    We had an enthusiastic crowd that at last count was more than 1,000 folks. And that was without the major daily newspaper putting the info about the rally in the Saturday edition (although we had been assured "oh it's in the calendar, no problem!")

                    Plenty of Kerry/Edwards signs, signs for local candidates, and some old Dean for America signs too. Local candidates got to speak a few minutes each, two statewide "Dean Dozen" candidates who rode in from Houston with the governor each got a few more minutes, and then the main event (and almost on time! Woo hoo!)

                    Gov. Dean was in great form and seemed very happy to be here in sweltering Texas. (It was cloudy and rained lightly during the first part of the rally, cooling things off, then the rain stopped for the governor's speech.) I think he spoke for about 20 minutes, lots of great red meat stuff tailored for Texas. He said he hoped we considered him an honorary Texas Democrat, and the crowd indicated that was just fine by them.

                    We were lucky enough to have DFA's Tom Hughes there in Austin with us as a trainer for the weekend workshop (which went fabulously and was overflowing, over 400 people). He set up the rally area for maximum effectiveness for the cameras and it looked great. We learned a lot!

                    Haven't seen the TV clips yet, but we had five TV stations, plus the major daily, the University of Texas daily (great pic and story), the main alternative weekly, the primary news radio station, the UT public radio station, and an alternative cable show... anyhow that's who we found, if there were other print journalists we may have missed buttonholing them.

                    Gov. Dean shook hands and signed autographs for about 15 minutes after his speech, then spent another 15 minutes or so with several of the reporters/TV crews that were onsite. He then got whisked off to his flight out of Austin.

                    Local candidates, voter registrars, and the Kerry campaign had tables near the rally area and did a booming business. After the rally about 100 people did the training and took the oath to become deputy voter registrars. Again, that's not 100 people registering to vote, that's 100 people signing up to register other people. Very cool.

                    We're tired but happy here in Austin!

                    "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." ~ Harry S Truman

                    by another Democrat in Texas on Mon Aug 23, 2004 at 09:11:45 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Not my experience ~~ (4.00 / 4)

          I saw him appealing to the middle and to Republicans.  I had a little band of five I was herding to the primaries.  None of whom are now interested in Kerry.  Some look to be sitting this one out now, which I suppose is a blessing. . . .

          "The world is too dangerous for anything but truth and too small for anything but love." ~~ William Sloane Coffin

          by puddleriver on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 12:40:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Here in VT/NH, Dean pulled a lot of Republicans (4.00 / 2)

          I could find you any number of Republicans who've been leaning heavily Democratic because of Dean. Up here, there's a real love of pragmatic budget balancers.

          But many of these Dean-liking Repubs are aliented by Kerry. Fortunately, many of them are completely horrified by Bush (gotta love old-school New England Republicans), and we can probably get most of these Dean Republicans to hold their nose for Kerry. Mass Democrats are not even remotely popular with New Hampshire Republicans, for reasons which go back many generations.

          Kerry ain't my first choice, but he'll do fine.

        •  Nonsense (none / 1)

          I don't know where you were,probably at a Kerry meet-up, but at my meet up of about 50 people 3/4s were independents, Republican, Green, New party and democrats who had not voted in years.

          Gee I wish people would stick to talking about what they know about.

        •  i won't use myself as an example (4.00 / 6)

          i will use my little brother, who is currently 20.  he happened to read a few words of the good doctor last summer while on summer break from the U of Ill. thinking this was great stuff he decided to start Pittsburghers for Dean, but he quickly realized that the tools out there sucked to do that.  so he started getting involved with Hack for Dean, with other open source minded guys.  he was the mastermind behind DeanSpace, the softwear tools, which eventually all of the Dean State affiliates and dozens of others.

          Zephyr and others noticed what he was doing and decided to hire him, so he dropped out of school and went up to Burlington.  eventually he made into the NYT mag (yes he was geek w/the large feet) and became a pretty well known name in the world of internet activism.

          now he has some funding by the guys in the recent Dem shadow party is going to take over the world story.  he is hoping to raise millions of dollars to start his own foundation (thats the goal the experts gave him) so that he can provide free tools that seemlessly allow groups to share information, user names, blogs, calendars... this is the stuff that Trippi has been gushing about. in fact his own organization Change for Americais running off the softwear.

          you know what the coolest thing about this is?  that Zack never was particularly interested in politics.  i was the one at a liberal arts school that went on to work at a non-profit in D.C.  he was destined to be like our father chasing after the start-up dream.  instead, he is off trying to change the world and Dean was the man who inspired him.  who knows what he will eventually accomplish, but i know that i am damn proud of him.  thank you Dr. Dean.

        •  New Mexico House Speaker thanks Deaniacs (4.00 / 3)

          Tonight at a Democratic fundraiser I attended in Socorro, NM (money raised goes to local Democratic candidates), Speaker of the House Ben Lujan went out of his way to thank us Deaniacs to much applause. He mentioned how much help we've been to the Party, especially in the Sante Fe area (which had a huge Dean group). The Socorro Democratic county chair did likewise. Nice to be appreciated :)

          I got the feeling what has impressed the party's faithful most was that we didn't pick up our toys and go home. Following Howard's good example, most of us are now working for Kerry and other Democrats at all levels. Feels damn good to be doing something!

          "[Republicans] swapped principle for power. They ended up with neither. They deserved to lose." --Alan Greenspan

          by lanshark on Tue Aug 17, 2004 at 01:52:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Vichy-Dems? (none / 1)

        God, I just love it... hope you don't mind a little constructive plagarism!?!

        RMD

        The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

        by RedMeatDem on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 09:59:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Star (4.00 / 33)

      Nah, Dean isn't the reason the Sun shines... as TMBG says, the sun is a mass of incandescent gas... much like your post.

      When Dean hit the scene, the Democrats were climbing all over each other to be Bush Light, seeing how Republican they could behave. Perhaps you've heard of the DLC.

      And, shockingly, the Democrats doing so had lost it all. The White House, Congress... everything.

      Then along comes Dean with a mouthful of precisely the kind of indignation that I'd been hearing from my fellow Democrats, grumbling among ourselves, for years. But not from the party leadership... no way.

      And, WOW, for the first time in a generation, someone was inspiring Democrats to be proud of our values. Rather than running away from them. Not only that, but he ran the most (lowercase d) democratic campaign I can imagine, turning an incredible amount of control to his grassroots supporters on the ground. And listening to (and incorporating) our best ideas without abandoning his principles. As a result, we worked our butts off for him... and for the party.  

      And we still do.  

      It seems only fair and gracious to give credit where it is due and pay respect to the efforts of hard-working people who have been pouring new life into what was recently a played out and dejected party.

      And it's not just Dean... he never said it was, and we never said it was. His message was, and remains, that we have the power. Optimism is one thing. Empowerment is another... and a sense of empowerment is exactly what Democrats needed.

      No, Dean's not the sun. He's a star, though:  which leaves lots of room in the sky for the rest of us to shine too.

      The times, they are a-changin'

      by Malacandra on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 03:24:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I beg to differ on that (4.00 / 14)

      Bush had been making mistake after mistake, and the Dems had just rolled over.  No backbone whatsoever.  Before Dean, no one called him on anything.  Before Dean, there wasn't any optimism.  And Bush was still just as bad.

      No, Dean deserves a lot of credit for the change in attitude.  And the activism.  Before Dean, people felt they couldn't do anything, like the DLC, many had just given up.  Bush had been Bush from day 1, it wasn't until Dean that many things changed.

      •  Go ahead and beg... (4.00 / 3)

        It's not whether the Bushiter makes mistakes...

        It's that the Dems had no spine, no will, no fight, no idea what to do and were just as addicted to the same corpocroc cash the Thugs are so fond of.

        If you don't represent us, you are going to lose the ability to pretend to represent us.

        RMD

        The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

        by RedMeatDem on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 10:02:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bush has (3.66 / 9)

      made a career of making severe mistakes. But too many people, it sounds like you are one of them, were afraid to call him on them.
    •  well hi (4.00 / 6)

      al from.

      the next Democratic Party: disciplined joy, righteous smarts and clean money...

      by tokyoterri4dfa on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 08:01:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's not just Bush. We have the Power. (4.00 / 6)

      And once Dean showed the rest of the Democrats that  the roll over and play dead strategy of 02 wasn't the only way to go, its amazing how the Democratic Party came to life.

      Dean (via Matt Gross and Zephyr Teachout) also tapped into a base of donors that no one else had mobilized.

      We don't give 2 grand a pop, but we get there over a few months of small donations.

      Donate to progressive Missouri local, state, and national candidates at my ActBlue page! http://www.actblue.com/page/waynemo

      by Wayne in Missouri on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 10:19:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wayne, as you so often tell me.... (4.00 / 4)

        YOU have the power!

        It was amazing, to me, how Dean was able to get me motivated. I recall an interview early on where the Doctor said that after beginning to tour the country he realized that the problem with the Democrats was that they were simply depressed.

        To fight depression you have to get the patient involved in, and taking control of their own therapy, and so he changed his campaign from an issues oriented one to a campaign to break people out of their bummer and get them involved in the solution.

        It worked for me.

        I think it is astonishing that Dean could see what was wrong with the party and simply prescribe a little medicine in the form of "You have the power."

        "Ask a glass of water"

        by Del in MO on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 11:45:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wow, (none / 0)

          I didn't know about that interview. However, it isn't astonishing that Dean could figure that out, not at all. He is a GP, and has talked about that role. If I remember right, he said the "therapy" part of his job was as important if not more important than the purely medical part. Dean felt that people only got got better if they fought back, and it was his job to get them to do that.

          He really was just what the DR ordered. :)

          Maybe this is the best outcome all things considered. Rebuilding the party and taking back the country is a full time job. As we learned, you have to build from the ground up. It still makes me sad though, when I think about what an awesum president he would have been. It really sucked that the SCLM never talked about what a great chief executive he was. He did an amazing job in VT. Remember his primary win there? Those guys wanted to make a statement.

  •  What if Dean did not run? (4.00 / 12)

    I shudder at the thought.  

    Dems still afraid to stand up to their values and to Bush afraid of being unpatriotic
    Bush mistakes not highlighted but spinned unopposed
    The Dem nominee bound by public financing
    No internet fundraising
    No internet grassroot organizing
    Dems resigned to another Bush 4 years

    John Kerry until now couldnt attack Bush on his face about that the Iraq War was the wrong war at the wrong time and definitely a costly mistake not worth it. However thanks to attack dogs like Clark and Dean it is mainstream now to think Iraq war was not worth it.

    Dean's  impact cannot just be underestimated.  But we should not forget Joe Trippi's vision who made it possible.

    Fact check Obama spins on Hillary http://facts.hillaryhub.com/

    by timber on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 04:55:23 PM PDT

  •  Dean made me wake up (4.00 / 23)

    When I heard that first speech at the DNC meeting and he started out by saying "What i want to know ..." everything changed for me.  Here was a man who would always speak the truth, no matter the polically correct theories.

    Thank you to all.  and I still watch every show he is on, every remark and article which refers to Dean, and

    yes, click on every comment and diary which mentions his name.

    Now I know what an honest politician looks and sounds like.  I bet Vermont wants him back just for their state.

    •  "What I Want to Know" (4.00 / 23)

      That speech will go down as one of the most important in American political history.  I'm serious.  

      It showed the sorry state of the Democratic Party and exposed it as derelict in its duty to provide an opposition to the GOP.  At the same time, it implored those of us who had given up on on the Democrats to try with them, one more time.  It showed the millions of us who are truly sickened by events that we are not alone, that we do have a voice AND a responsibility. It was a patriotic message.  It was an inclusive message, "all of us, together".  It was a distinctly American message.  

      The way Governor Dean has conducted himself in defeat is damn near as impressive as his campaign.  Forget Nader - had Dean wanted to, he could have torn the Democratic Party apart - with ease.  He did NOT do that.  Dean believes in his party.  Dean believes in our country.  Not easy things to do sometimes (esp. in the Autumn of 2002), but when things are bleak, that's precisely when we need a loyal, forceful patriot like Dr. Dean.  

      The effect Dean has had on Democrats, and all Americans, cannot be overstated.

      No more Republican rule.

      by HarveyMilk on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 07:04:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  AMEN ! (4.00 / 7)

        It was like "Lazarus come forth !" for a lot of us-- and it will never be the same again.

        The politically once near-dead are out of the tomb, working for candidates, running for office, donating money.

        It's kinda scary to think what this year would have been like otherwise, isn't it ?

        Let's get some Democracy for America

        by murphy on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 10:09:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What about Liebermania? (4.00 / 3)

    I could have sworn that Joe Lieberman was the future of the Democratic party, right? Wasn't he supposed to be the sort of Democrat that we wouldn't admit could win? Surely all of the Lieberman campaigners must be out there all across the country campaigning for their local candidates and trying to inject the Democratic party with a healthy dose of Liebermania...
  •  To sum up (3.95 / 21)

    The tea is still in the harbor!
  •  Man, Did I Need That! (4.00 / 7)

    I just heard it again here and I needed a refueling stop: resolve, applause, respect, optimism, community, altruism, change. Real stuff, folks, not the spin meisters. It is far from gratuitous to fan the embers of the authentic candidacy and the man who pretty much through character and courage lit the fire under so many of us. As our original MeetUp flamed out, then rekindled, then reinvented itself, it was because Dean just wouldn't let me say f##k it. We now have a core of people I never would have known, a bond woven from Dean's threads, the blogs, the hope.  Otherwise I would be alone, again, ranting at this disgusting blot on our presidency. We are together. Thanks to each person who said something today. Go Deaniacs.

    Live Free or Die Bold

    by vetfordean on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 06:23:15 PM PDT

  •  Snap Quiz (4.00 / 15)

    There are questions that bear repeating, e.g.,

    1. Why in the world the Democratic Party leadership was supporting the President's unilateral attack on Iraq?

    2. Why were Democratic leaders supporting tax cuts? The question is not how big the tax cut should be -- the question should be: Can we afford a tax cut at all with the largest deficit in the history of the country?

    3. Why we were fighting in Congress about the Patient's Bill of Rights when the Democratic Party ought to be standing up for health care for every man, woman and child in this country? and

    4. Why our folks were voting for the President's No Child Left Behind bill that leaves every child behind, every teacher behind, every school board behind and every property tax payer behind?
    •  hmmm... I contend that over (3.92 / 14)

      8 years of Reagan and 4 of Poppy and 8 of Clinton/DLC... many Democrats forgot their own language much less big "D" Democratic goals and the natural and necessary coalitions.  May they find them again.  So far it is sketchy at best, it may take hold, bit by bit.
      I will be hopeful...
      Meanwhile elements in the party spent the spring and summer patting our heads, we little Dean people, saying "Thanks", with a butter knife in hand aiming for us... gee it was so scarey, those Big Bad Dems (but mind you no 'Democratic Establishment' exists, never been sighted on the savannah) with their little butter knives, deciding this was a run worth making...after all.  
      Thing of it is, like Dean we are not going away.
    •  Democracy, a.k.a. 'you have the power' (2.16 / 6)

      1. I'm not aware of any Democratic leader who favored a unilateral attack on Iraq ... but in any case, Bush had the votes.

      2. We were not in "the largest deficit in the history of the country" when tax cuts were passed. At the time, we were at risk of racking up surplus faster than we could get bondholders to cash in. In any case, Bush had the votes.

      3. Every man, woman and child in this country have never supported health care for every man, woman and child in this country. And Bush had the votes (though Dem leadership tactical defenses blunted the worst of Hastert & DeLay's schemes).

      4. Bush had the votes (though Dem leadership beat back the full-tilt voucher/privatization thrust of the original bill, and Bush caved).

      The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

      by RonK Seattle on Sun Aug 15, 2004 at 11:52:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Opposition (3.80 / 10)

        It's called "opposition."  Which is what you do when you one day want to have the votes for what you believe in, Zell.
        •  Do you believe I advocate any of these positions? (2.14 / 7)

          And on what basis?

          Or are you just acting out?

          The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

          by RonK Seattle on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 01:13:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  NYCO can speak for herself (4.00 / 7)

            Myself, I had a similar reaction to your post based on your prior pessimism and general tone about Dean in nearly everything. Maybe you appreciated Dean once upon a time, but at one point it seemed like anytime love for Dean was expressed you're right there with a comment bashing Dean.

            Some of us love Dean fiercely and will defend him just as strongly. And a few of us have long memories of those who bash Dean. I'm one of them.

            •  IOW, factional loyalties trump facts? (2.20 / 5)

              The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

              by RonK Seattle on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 02:16:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  loyalty ....which area (4.00 / 4)

                Because as I see it, Dean has brought on board many more democrats than you have or ever will. And further more the new democrats he has brought into the party do more than vote. What's your track record? When you exceed Dean's let us know, ok. Thanks
                •  Do I understand you correctly? (1.40 / 5)

                  You are arguing that you (as a Dean loyalist) grant yourself (and other Dean loyalists) license to post in bad faith (posting things you either know to be false, or things you have no reason to belive true) until I do as much as you believe Dean has done?

                  Do I render the gist of your position accurately?

                  That's a very odd standard of conduct.

                  The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

                  by RonK Seattle on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 07:55:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That was not my argument at all (4.00 / 2)

                    Please go back and read through the thread where I jumped in. You chose to interpret it thusly. While not an accurate example the image that came to mind upon reading your post just now was one of where o'reily said Krugman lied and then turned around and told Krugman not to call him a liar. I'm not comparing the two situations ( consciously ) but I will say you missed what I had to say, keeping on your track. And it isn't to say I don't do the same thing myself, I do.
          •  colleen, if you persist in this behavior ... (2.30 / 10)

            ... you will force me to take action re ratings abuse.

            The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

            by RonK Seattle on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 02:57:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Go for it, Ron. (3.25 / 12)

               I'll rate as I see fit. You're trolling, I'm calling you on it.
            •  Re: colleen, if you persist in this behavior (2.16 / 6)

              "colleen, if you persist in this behavior you will force me to take action re ratings abuse."

              Ratings abuse is colleen's middle name.

              •  Even so.. (4.00 / 2)

                  Even if coleen was a serial ratings abuser, well...as they say, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

                  In Ron's case, let's just say he wanders into "1" territory every time he talks about Dean.

                  Nor for his opinions (I never begrudge a fool his opinions) but for his ass-hattery.

                •  Oh, I am not. (none / 1)

                  Even if coleen was a serial ratings abuser, well

                  These two have had it in for me since legacy Kos days. the first time petey was banned and RonK left for awhile they both accused me  of leading an email cabal to petition Kos for this result and never responded when I told them that I had never written Kos on my own to complain much less lead a "cabal".

                  Even in this thread I've not been as harsh in my ratings as some people. One's and twos only, I haven't used my 0 as several others have. In several posts I've given 2's where others rated lower. They're just trying to bully and I don't ever cave to attempts at intimidation and control, it annoys the heck out of them. I'm not a leader in the DFA group, I follow and with respect and delight.

                  I have discovered a couple of ratings sockpuppets from this mess so it's not been entirely useless.

      •  Seriously (4.00 / 12)

        if you were a Republican, they'd laugh you out of the party. Do you think they sit around whining when Dems "have the votes"? No way, they are thinking of every way they can get around not "having the votes". Do you notice that nearly every time something of theirs gets voted down, they keep vowing to regroup and fight again? Sometimes they'll succeed and sometimes they won't, but it's quite a different attitude from what a lot of Dems have espoused, which is not to back anything unless they "have the votes". It's a defeatist cycle. Maybe you don't "have the votes" in one round, but by making your arguments, you'll have a better chance of convincing people that you should "have the votes" the next time around.

        It doesn't matter if you "don't agree with Bush"--if you don't oppose him, you might as well be agreeing with him. Maybe one of the big lessons--and one of the hardest--that we've learned with Dean, is that you shouldn't be afraid to lose, as long as you can figure out how to make your loss productive. Some people are so afraid of losing that they make losing--in the long term--inevitable.

        Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

        by JMS on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 10:08:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If we start with a true premise ... (none / 0)

          ... we can have a productive discussion about it. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? What can we do about it? How high a priority is it?

          If we start with a false premise, our discussions are likely to be less productive.

          Tom Bearse raised four questions.

          I point out that questions 1 and 2 were falsely premised, and that questions 3 and 4 were at least in part falsely premised ... and that if any of the four questions were settled democratically (by votes in Congress, or by votes in the electorate), we would lose.

          If you think you know the right way to turn this around, you are entitled to your opinion ... but my view remains that good strategies are not premised on false histories -- and that should at least fall within the allowable range of discussion.

          The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

          by RonK Seattle on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 07:50:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Moral Conviction or Political Expedience (4.00 / 6)

        "I'm not aware of any Democratic leader who favored a unilateral attack on Iraq ... but in any case, Bush had the votes."

        Are you aware of any who supported it, as suggested by the actual quote?  I know of some who did not.  At least one was accused of lacking the qualifications in foreign affairs to be president because he did not feel America was safer after Hussein's capture.

        •  That wasn't the question (none / 0)

          Your original question referred to Democratic leaders supporting unilateral invasion. I don't know of any, you haven't named any, and thus I suspect your question rests on a false premise.

          As for "some who did not", I suppose that by "some" you mean "Howard Dean", and by "did not" you mean "Opposed the Iraq War Resolution".

          1. Dean was not a Democratic leader, by conventional understandings of that phrase.
          2. Dean did not have a vote, or a place at the table, or any skin in the negotiationg game, and thus had not burden of political inexpedience to bear.
          3. Dean did not oppose the IWR. He favored the nuancedly-different Biden-Lugar draft, but raised no contemporaneous objection to the prevailing draft. (skeptics pls google howard dean + biden-lugar)

          The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

          by RonK Seattle on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 07:28:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't ask it (4.00 / 6)

            "Your original question referred to Democratic leaders supporting unilateral invasion. I don't know of any, you haven't named any, and thus I suspect your question rests on a false premise."

            I was thinking of Richard Gephardt and Hillary Clinton but, of course a movable line defines the term.  Regardless of that, the question was Howard Dean's.

            "As for 'some who did not', I suppose that by 'some' you mean 'Howard Dean', and by 'did not' you mean 'Opposed the Iraq War Resolution'."

            By some I meant some.  They include Dean, Boxer, Byrd, Chafee, Feingold, Graham, Jeffords, Kennedy, Leahy, Levin, Mikulski, Murray, Sarbanes, Stabenow, Wellstone, Wyden and others.

            "Dean did not oppose the IWR."

            The IWR doesn't apply to Dean because he wasn't a member of Congress.  On March 18, 2003, Howard Dean said:

            "Those Americans who opposed our going to war with Iraq, who wanted the United Nations to remove those weapons without war, need not apologize for giving voice to their conscience, last year, this year or next year. In a country devoted to the freedom of debate and dissent, it is every citizen's patriotic duty to speak out, even as we wish our troops well and pray for their safe return. Congressman Abraham Lincoln did this in criticizing the Mexican War of 1846, as did Senator Robert F. Kennedy in calling the war in Vietnam 'unsuitable, immoral and intolerable.'

            "This is not Iraq, where doubters and dissenters are punished or silenced --this is the United States of America. We need to support our young people as they are sent to war by the President, and I have no doubt that American military power will prevail. But to ensure that our post-war policies are constructive and humane, based on enduring principles of peace and justice, concerned Americans should continue to speak out; and I intend to do so."

            •  Gephadrt favored unilateral invasion? Show me. (none / 0)

              Clinton favored unilateral invasion? Show me.

              And please, spare me whatever Dean had to say in March 2003. In September and October, when the IWR was pending, Dean spoke to the issue. He supported a very similar draft. And at the time, he raised no objection to the IWR as passed.

              The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

              by RonK Seattle on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 08:32:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sparing you (4.00 / 4)

                October 3, 2003 Chicago Tribune

                "'In our view, Iraq's use and continuing development of weapons of mass destruction, combined with efforts of terrorists to acquire such weapons, pose a unique and dangerous threat to our national security,'" Gephardt said at the Rose Garden ceremony.  

                "Gephardt's decision to side with Hastert and Bush at the expense of Daschle was a rare break from what has become an increasingly partisan divide this year. But Gephardt has staked out a more hawkish stance than many of his fellow Democrats on the Iraq issue, and he was responsible for suggesting many of the modifications adopted in the final agreement with the president.  

                "A core of Democrats in both houses remains adamantly opposed to the new language.  

                "'It is not a resolution I can support, because . . . it still authorizes the president at this point to take unilateral action,' said Rep. Jan Schakowsky"

              •  Show me all the DEM (4.00 / 6)

                Senators who voted for the IWR and now claim that GWB didn't honor the terms of the IWR (read it -- it give GWB sole discretion on determining if war is necessary) who were out there screaming about GWB's refusal to even look at what Saddam submitted to the UN, dismissal of what Blix and the UN inspectors were reporting and that GWB had not honored the resolution when it became clear in 2/03 that he planed to start a war?  Gee, the gave GWB the authority and never said diddly squat after that and before the bombs began dropping.  Then, except for Waxman, they remained silent 90 after the invasion when it was clear there were no WMD.  By their vote on the IWR and their subsequent silence, omission, it's hard to conclude that they didn't support the invasion.

                What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

                by Marie on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 09:11:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Re: I didn't ask it (none / 0)

              "By some I meant some.  They include Dean..."

              While Dean did oppose the IWR, he supported the functionally identical Biden/Lugar resolution which would have also allowed the President a blank check to go to war.

              •  Why can't we dissent? (4.00 / 4)

                "While Dean did oppose the IWR, he supported the functionally identical Biden/Lugar resolution which would have also allowed the President a blank check to go to war."

                October 3, 2003 Chicago Tribune

                "Some Senate Democrats and some Republicans have warned that the United States should not confront Hussein on its own, preferring to see an alliance with the UN and other countries.  

                "That is the focus of the Biden-Lugar version, which would require Bush to inform Congress before taking action that he has sought a UN resolution or has determined that the Iraqi threat warrants unilateral action."

                •  Re: Why can't we dissent? (none / 0)

                  ""That is the focus of the Biden-Lugar version, which would require Bush to inform Congress before taking action that he has sought a UN resolution or has determined that the Iraqi threat warrants unilateral action."

                  As I said, Biden/Lugar was functionally equivelent to the IWR.

                  Bush had sought a UN resolution.  Under Biden/Lugar, he would have had to submit a piece of paper to Congress stating as much, and then it was off to Iraq.

                  Biden/Lugar was better language than the IWR.  That's why Kerry and the Dem leadership except Geppy supported the Biden/Lugar language.  But under both resolutions, Bush had a complete blank check to wage war.  And Dean supported Biden/Lugar.

                  "Why can't we dissent?"

                  Feel free.  Just know what really happened.

              •  But did he remain silent from (4.00 / 5)

                the date of the IWR until GWB began "shock and awe?"  Kerry and Edwards have had ample opportunity since their votes on the IWR to extend and amend their position.  And the anger by people like me towards those two for their votes would have been similarly modified.  Kerry's remarks last week are further confirmation that he didn't object to the US engaging in a unilateral invasion, suggesting that he learned less than nothing from Vietnam.  

                What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

                by Marie on Mon Aug 16, 2004 at 09:17:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Gehardt's unilateralism (none / 0)

              AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE AGAINST IRAQ RESOLUTION OF 2002 -- (House of Representatives - October 10, 2002):
              Mr. GEPHARDT. ... Iraq is a problem that must be dealt with diplomatically if we can, militarily if we must. ...

              At the insistence of many of us, the resolution includes a provision urging President Bush to continue his efforts ... he must do everything he possibly can to achieve our objectives with the support of the United Nations.

              Exhausting all efforts at the U.N. is essential. ...

              Completely bypassing the U.N. would set a dangerous precedent ...

              ... It requires Presidential determinations ... that he has pursued all diplomatic means ... and that any military action will not undermine our ongoing efforts against terrorism.

              ... The efforts we must undertake in a postconflict Iraq could be the most enduring challenge ... another reason for doing everything humanly possible to work through the U.N. ...

              ... it is not an endorsement or an acceptance of the President's new policy of preemption.

              ... military power is not a foreign policy. ...

              ... we want to give diplomacy the best possible opportunity to resolve this conflict, but we are prepared to take further steps, if necessary, to protect our Nation.

              (Congressional Record, 107th Congress, Pages H7778-7779)

              Many of you are aware that (back when the game was afoot) I stood with Sen. Byrd while Dean aligned with Sen. Biden. I was scathingly critical of Mr. Gephardt's foreshortening of deliberations ... but the charge of "supporting unilateral invasion" is without foundation.

              Semantic hair-splitting over 'support' vs 'favor' leaves me cold. If there's a point -- make it.

              The better informed of you also know that -- by prevailing interpretations of law and precedent --Bush could have taken us to war without the IWR ... so Gephardt did not enable W's move any more than he supported it.

              "IWR doesn't apply to Dean" is cowardly dodgery, by any measure.

              And "where doubters and dissenters are punished or silenced"? That could apply to the current thread, could it not?

              The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

              by RonK Seattle on Tue Aug 17, 2004 at 05:48:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Turn up your thermostat (none / 0)

                "[T]he charge of "supporting unilateral invasion" is without foundation."

                The Tribune quoted Rep. Jan Schakowsky as saying "It is not a resolution I can support, because . . . it still authorizes the president at this point to take unilateral action."

                •  Did Gephardt support unilateral invasion? (none / 0)

                  The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

                  by RonK Seattle on Tue Aug 17, 2004 at 08:17:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Conventional definitions of 'support' (none / 0)

                  From dictionary.com, verb transitive definitions only, excluding those clearly inapplicable (such as to support a family).
                  7.a. To aid the cause, policy, or interests of: supported her in her election campaign.

                  7.b. To argue in favor of; advocate: supported lower taxes.

                  Definition 7.b. clearly does not apply, as Gephardt argues extensively against unilateral invasion.

                  That leaves definition 7.a., which applies only if you cling to the conceits that:
                  (1) Gephardt could have blocked the IWR, AND
                  (2) Bush would not have invaded without the IWR.

                  The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

                  by RonK Seattle on Tue Aug 17, 2004 at 10:47:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh Well (none / 0)

                    Gov. Dean can't convince you.  Rep. Schakowsky can't convince you. Jill Zuckman can't convince you.  None of us can convince you.

                    Weighed against any possible available benefit from getting you to alter your position, this is way too much work.