Bridging the political divide in America

I have a problem.   I have lost the ability to negotiate with the other side. I can no longer engage in personal relationships or philosophical discussions with Bush voters or war supporters.   Where are you at?  Take the poll.  

I've been thinking about how the desire for peace is meant to bridge ideological gaps between people, but how difficult it is to embrace when your children are being killed. I think that's why I have lost all willingness to deal with the Bush voters and war supporters right now, because I feel responsible for the children of the world, and these people are murdering them. Taking their lives, their health, their future and their money. I feel for the little people of the world, who aren't old enough to understand the artificiality of national borders, the Enron scandal, or the Social Security ripoffs, who can't comprehend more about war than the fact that everyone around them is submerged in violence and fear. It's just unacceptable.

At first (as long as it's not your children being murdered) you try to talk about it. Prosecute it, you know. Examine the rationale of both sides, try your best through diplomatic channels of democracy and justice to try to correct the wrongs. To fight with words. But each person reaches a point where the crimes exceed the capacity of the sytem that is meant to contain them, and the people rise up, and take up action or arms against the oppressors. It's a classic historical pattern.

I and many others have reached that point with the Bush administration, and the invasion of Iraq, and I think you could easily see over a million people in the streets of New York during the RNC. Once you pick up the sword, however, it's hard to go back to philosophy. Now that I have finally become mad enough to fight, how do I entertain polite discourse with the people who want to keep killing the children, stealing the money, and practicing white supremacy and nuclear proliferation? It's a snake and tail.

The answer may be that some people need to get really angry, and some people need to stay at the table. I don't think that I'm going to be sitting back down for quite a while. Someone else needs to do that, and I apologize in theory to the people who are offended that I do not want to entertain their opinions on the war or the president. In practice, however, I consider them enemies of civilisation and compassion, and I don't want to be near them.

What I've realized from my own reaction is that even in reasonable people, the cycle of violence can negate the concept of peace. For a time. But eventually all people of reason are ready to negotiate. The key to peace has got to be a break from war. Five years should do it. Elect John Kerry, who wants to end war, and fire George Bush, who wants to start many more. As soon as possible.

•  My wife says she is losing heart too

  I think it comes down to young adults.  We have to reach them.  They will face a draft I am sure so when ever I talk to them I tell what modern combat is and they will face it unless we get rid of bush.  I can't say they beleive me or have they responded.  I can only hope it sinks in by election day.  I use the same on parents of late teenaged boys.

  by namnick on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 11:26:57 AM PDT

  •  oh, I'n not losing heart at ALL.

    I've just taken to the streets, and expelled all right wingers from my life.  I went one way, I am wondering how Kosland breaks out.

    by kate mckinnon on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 11:33:33 AM PDT

    •  I've done the same in expelling them

      from my life.  I see right-wingers as not just wrong but evil.  I admit that I probably could not treat someone fairly if I knew that they were a right-winger.  For example, if I knew that a person on trial was a right-wing nut, I'd probably assume he was guilty.

      by IhateBush on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 12:17:24 PM PDT

•  I'm not a hater

  so there are times when I avoid them, because I know they'll just send me into a rage.  But if I have a really meaningful relationship with somebody who's a Republican or Bush supporter, I just don't talk about it with them much.  I'm not going to let my political preferences ruin my relationships.  Another crucial point- I find that most Bush voters I know aren't- not to sound arrogant- nearly as well-informed as I am.  They just kind of like the persona Bush has succesfully managed to create.  I think you'll find that rare is the Bush voter who really knows and understands the majority of the Bush cartel's positions and plans, and their implications, and still supports them.  THOSE people I can't deal with, I'm with you there.  But you just have to remember- everybody's human, everybody makes mistakes, and if you start to really violently hate people for them- hey, hating is a GOP sport :)

  by tubalefty on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 11:37:56 AM PDT

•  Political Warfare

  A major part of the problem is that the Republicans have all but eliminated the possibility for political discourse.

  Drawing from David Horowitz's pamphlet, The Art of Political Warfare, they have turned politics into warfare conducted by other means.  According to Horowitz:

  In political conflicts, the goal is not to refute your opponent's argument, but to wipe him from the face of the earth.

  Karl Rove exemplifies this principle,  Horowitz's screed was given to every Repug member of Congress during the 2000 election and thousands of copies were distributed to right-wing activists.

  In the face of this, the question becomes how does one respond to fellow countrymen who are determined to wipe your principles and ideals from the face of the earth.

  We have come to a state of civil war in the U.S. Unless we can find a way to change the nature of discourse, this one may well be more far more traumatic than the last.

  by Sabarte on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 11:58:43 AM PDT

•  Keep the conversation going

  You don't have to convince them, you don't have to agree with them, and you don't have to tolerate the really loony parts of their behavior (whether it's Kerry-bashing or racism).

  Unless you're convinced of the absolute rightness of everything you believe, it's worthwhile to listen to them and at least try to understand what motivates their attitudes.

  If you keep engaged and keep their friendship or respect, you can demonstrate by your actions that your beliefs can be held by someone they like and admire. If you can keep them in conversation, especially by gently countering or deflecting their beliefs, you can maybe lead them to some small act - helping someone out, voting Dem once, whatever - that will be more than they would do without your "help".

  If all else fails, develop a healthy belief in the operation of karma.

  by badger on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 12:03:27 PM PDT

•  People around me

  know where I stand.

  Every so often, someone from the right tries to call me on something, send me along some email or news story. I do my best to offer context, try to quietly redirect the story back to our side on their terms.

  Calm, quiet, reasonable ... and let them come to me ...

   

  by Madman in the marketplace on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 12:04:18 PM PDT

•  Deprogramming camps

  for right-wingers.  The theocrats and other right-wingers are outright wacko to begin with, and they reject reason for the right-wing faith.  There is no reasoning with them, they are hopeless, and will turn to violence soon.

  I fully expect right-wing terrorism by next year, after W gets killed.  You have to comprehend their view, W is their last hope for fundamentalist America.  Once W gets whipped, these people will turn to violence and terrorism.  They will bomb abortion clinics, gay pride parades, liberal rallies etc.  And we will have to deal with them or keep getting killed.

  Kerry needs to use the PATRIOT Act to its fullest to deal with these domestic terrorists.  Also set up reeducation camps to change the views of the right-wing children, and adults who can be changed.  And jails to deal with the rest of the garbage.  If we don't do this we will have either massive terrorism or a major civil war.

  by IhateBush on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 12:15:05 PM PDT

•  yep

  I think, if you have come to this point, that it is best that you step out of the discussion.  This is a little awkward to say on the toneless Internet, but I praise you for the self-awareness that it takes for you to realize this, and the level-headedness of removing yourself from something where you know you won't be very effective.

  Personally, I'm great at the written word and awful at speaking, so I only engage in discussions either online, or when I actually feel like I know what I'm talking about and have examined as many sides as possible.  But there are plenty of times when I can't stand how calloused and thoughtless and close-minded people are, and have to bow out as you have done.

  by tryptamine on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 12:15:48 PM PDT

  •  I have only bowed out of debate, not action.

    I myself am distressed by my own anger and it's good to see so many other people still talking. I admire them for still being able to debate the validity of murdering civilians in a country that did not threaten us, and the death of a thousand of our own children.

    Of course, I'll never really get war. I can't for the life of me understand why killing other people makes one side more right. When does fighting war become participating in it? When do you fight to stop the fighting?

    WWII is a good example of why this is sometimes necessary- when you have ideological zealots who want to dominate the world. Is that what we've got? If Bush is re-elected, and wants more war, what will the people of America do? What will North Korea do? Iran? Syria? Libya? Will the peaceful nations of the world decide that it's gone too far, and threaten the United States? Have we become represented by the very oppressors we once feared, and fought?

    by kate mckinnon on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 12:56:42 PM PDT

    •  I think I understand....

      If you look at war from an emotional, rather than a rational, point of view, it begins to sort of make sense, I think.  As with all things related to emotion, this is very hard for me to explain, though, and I still don't think war is generally justified.

      You are really not alone in your anger.  I think the protests in New York yesterday are evidence of that.

      I keep debating because it is one of the few things I know how to do.  Plus, as others have said, I live in this world, and whatever happens here effects the world.  Sometimes I wish I lived in an insignificant place like, oh, Lithuania, so that I wouldn't have to care, but since my country is the most (or one of the most) powerful countries in the world, I have to care.  For myself, for my children, for my family (even the ones who like Bush), for Lithuanians and Africas and Asians and everyone, we have to keep trying.  That is really the only thing that keeps me going.

      by tryptamine on Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 06:08:34 AM PDT

•  To be completely honest

  I'm having a very difficult time with it.  I have two major problems - I live in Texas and I'm a Canadian.   The first means that I am surrounded by people who want to re-elect GWB (and I see stickers on the bumpers of people I thought knew better) and I can't vote so many people would discount my feelings on the election anyway - however, I would put forth that this election isn't merely an American thing but one that does affect the entire world.  

  Mostly I avoid confrontation.  I know it's the wrong thing to do and I feel like a big ole coward about it but as a Canadian it's in my nature to avoid confrontation.

  Perhaps I'll find my voice soon.

  Good diary.

  by confusedintexas on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 12:18:43 PM PDT

  •  Feel for you

    I'm an American and I live in Canada, and you wouldn't believe how many people say to me, "Why are you interested in the election anyway? You're Canadian now."

    First of all, it's pretty shocking how little they understand how citizenship works. And even if I did become a Canadian citizen, it seems strange that I would just give up interest in the country where I grew up and where my parents still live.

    It's sad but a lot of Americans have idiotic reactions to Canada. I remember in 2000 when Bush didn't know the name of the Canadian PM and people said, "Who cares who the PM of Canada is?" Nevermind that Canada is America's #1 trading partner.

    And don't get me started about "America Lite" or "51st State."

    Anyway, Canadian in Texas sounds pretty bad.

    by missanthropy on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 12:35:41 PM PDT

    •  It amazes me

      that people would think you would stop caring about America because you're living in Canada.  Be sure to ask them if they'd stop caring about Canada if the situation were reversed.  

      Of course you're going to care about the election and the US in general.   And they should too.  This is a big one and it definitely matters even outside the borders.

      Hey, have a Tim's double double for me will you?  

      by confusedintexas on Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:16:39 AM PDT

      •  Oh no

        It's my American friends who say that to me. The Canadians I know understand and are themselves following the election closer than most Americans -- incredible, isn't it?

        Have a Dr. Pepper for me :)

        by missanthropy on Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 10:42:34 AM PDT

  •  find some more Dem friends, maybe?

    I feel for you. I am fortunate to live in one of the most liberal neighborhoods in the most liberal city in the state.

    But last weekend we had a grassroots organizer training with over 400 people and the vast majority were from inside Texas, outside Austin. There are Democrats out there, and they're fired up. If you can find some more passionate Democrats in your town to commiserate and plan with, I think it would do a lot of good. You can get re-energized. It's different meeting people in person as opposed to here or elsewhere online.

    You could check meetup.org, or the Texas part of the Democratic Underground message board.

    Good luck!

    by another Democrat in Texas on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 01:48:40 PM PDT

    •  That's an excellent idea

      I'm looking into it.  Even though I can't vote or donate money I can be a body(or several bodies since I always have my kids with me...)  at an event.  I did a little research over the weekend and I'm going to look into getting involved.  Maybe that will help me to feel more optimistic about the whole thing.  

      thanks,
      

      by confusedintexas on Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:18:31 AM PDT

•  Boy, can I identify!

  Mostly I avoid discussions with the Bush backers.  Because I can't stand the feelings I get in my gut when I hear them.  My friends are those on my side, I don't consider someone who backs Bush a friend, because I know they don't share my values.
  I am working very hard for every Democrat I can find, one way or the other.  It is the only way I can live in peace.  If I had to be passive and take this shit I would have to be locked up.  
  Thanks for posting this, I really appreciate knowing I am not alone in this.

  by nhselectwoman on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 01:48:47 PM PDT

•  What I finally did

  I get the Sunday NY Times delivered.  Today, while watching the protest, I cancelled the subscription.  I am going to contribute that money to local Independent media.

  I have bought multiple copies of OutFoxed.  I have sent them to friends around the country, and am circulating them where I live.  I believe that an important part of this struggle is showing "average" americans how far the "middle" has moved to the right.  We all need to stay alert to how political "discussion" is being manipulated.

  I think there is a ton of work to be done amongst the so-called base.

  by Hoping on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 02:16:41 PM PDT

•  I'm in Oklahoma City

  
  And its impossible to avoid right wingers unless you just want to isolate yourself completely.

  I did enjoy attending a meeting of the "KerryOkies" at our last AAA baseball game of the season Thursday night, where it was estimated that over 200 dems showed up.

  I've found it difficult to engage in dialogue.  I run an email group for people I used to attend a church with.  If you want to really know how people think, get on an email group with them.  They'll say things and express opinions that they never would in person.  I've tried to respond to their venomous right wing emails with factual information.  Don't know if its done any good.

  Most of these people equate any criticism of the war with criticism of our soldiers.  I sometimes wonder how far they would tolerate our government going rather than risk offending one soldier.

  Its very depressing living in Oklahoma right now, so many seem clueless, but I do watch for opportunities to educate.

  by lrhoke on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 03:17:56 PM PDT

•  The only Republicans in my life...

  are the ones I'm related to -- and I don't talk to them, either.

  by Maryscott OConnor on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 04:26:03 PM PDT

•  all my ex-friends are republicans

  What I do is ask calmly-- Do you make more than 200,000$ a year?  Do you send your children to public school? Do you have affordable health care? Do you have enough money to support yourself without depending on Social Security when you retire?  Well,if you do not, then you are voting against yourself, your children, and your parents if you vote for the republicans. people vote their wallets every time.:)

  by shycat on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 06:46:18 PM PDT

•  sorry

  Scrambled that a bit-- but I was so jazzed watching the NY pics.

  by shycat on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 06:50:03 PM PDT

•  Today ...

  I went to a rally and canvassed for votes.

  -7.75 -4.67

  "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

  by Odysseus on Sun Aug 29, 2004 at 09:08:34 PM PDT