Daily Kos

A brief history

Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 12:54:51 AM PDT

The site has been getting about 200,000 daily visits this week, which I have a hard time grasping. Call it the dKos post-convention bounce.

But it did get me thinking about the early days. And since people always ask me how I built this site, here's the answer:

There was once a group of political afficionados who hung out at various political forums -- starting with Delphi Forums, then moving on to ones run by a guy named Orvetti. When Orvetti closed shop, they all moved over en masse to Political Wire, which at the time had comments. But in the runup to the 2002 mid-terms, Taegan got sick of the constant flame wars in his comment threads and he shut them down.

So everyone headed on over to Jerome Armstrong's MyDD, which is where I entered the picture. Digging the site (which I had found via Buzzflash), I decided to start up my own election-themed site, Daily Kos. The site actually lived on fishyshark.com for a month as I tried to come up with a "serious" name for my new endeavour. Even though I eventually settled on "Daily Kos", I considered it a failure at the time -- I thought I should've come up with a more creative name. I selected orange as the site color so that it would stand out from the bloggy masses (branding 101).

In short time I caught Jerome's attention, and we made a habit of linking back to each other on a constant basis. A few months later, Jerome (who invented the "open thread") got sick of the flame wars on his message boards and followed Taegan's lead by shutting his comments down. So everyone headed on over to Daily Kos.

And I was ready. I had learned my lessons from Political Wire and MyDD's community failures, and immediately shut the door on the Republican commentors who had destroyed the previous sites' communities. I zealously worked to create a "safe zone" for liberal political junkies, despite howls of "censorship" from both liberals and conservataives, and the community grew. October 2002, MyDD was the highest-trafficked liberal blog, but Jerome shut down soon thereafter as he focused his attentions on Howard Dean. So Daily Kos became the only liberal election analysis game in town.

But even back then, the site was no longer about me, it was about the community, discussion, and debate. So, few cared when I blew my House and Senate predictions because the fun part had been the discussion. (Though in my lame defense, I did do pretty good with the governors races.)

Bush's War was good for ratings, mine included. By mid-2003, I was feeling the limits of MovableType, and started looking for alternatives, finally settling on Scoop. It took a while to migrate, but that was done by Fall 2003. And despite some grumblings and predictions of doom ("I'll never register!"), the site really took off.

I got many kudos for chosing Scoop, especially the diaries which gave readers a whole new level of ownership with the site. I was genius! Except I wasn't. I chose Scoop because of its community moderation features. I actually didn't think anyone would use the diaries.

So there you have it. Opportunism, mixed in with blind luck and a dose of branding. The secret of my success.

  • ::

Tags: Taegan Goddard, Political Wire, Daily Kos, Scoop, Daily Kos History (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 214 comments

  •  How (4.00 / 10)

    can we ever thank you adequately for all you've done?

    It sounds cliche, but I thank you sincerely, so very much, for all that you do. You've inspired me to work harder and stay focused until November, and that's a pretty spectular gift. I only hope you know what a positive impact you've had on many of us, as individuals, in our campaign efforts.

    Thank you, kos. I mean it. Thank you for everything.

    •  Enough with the sycophantism... (2.09 / 41)

      I hear that Kos knew Elvis. Elvis knew God

      Are you people fuckin idiots? The daily kos isn't about Kos, it's about you.

      I'm sorry, when I see people trying to mythologize someone I get nausiated.

      Kos, you have an obligation to stem this tide. If you don't, then you're a phony.

      The internet wasn't created to facilitate the rise of power of one person. The internet is the dawn of the rise of power of ALL PEOPLE.

      And Kos will be the first to say it. People Power.

      •  What is your problem? (3.00 / 6)

        Talk about idiots.

        Everybody dies alone.

        by Armando on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 05:56:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  He's the good stuff (4.00 / 2)

          Tocque is funky, but he's good people. I know because he lives right down the street from me, and I've worked with him.

          I frequently disagree with him, but I never distrust him.

          •  Fucking idiots? (4.00 / 3)

            Syncophants?  And then posting his own love letter to kos, so a hypocite too?  Hamletta, I'll take your word for it, but . . . not his finest hour.

            Everybody dies alone.

            by Armando on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:21:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Tocque is usually decent (none / 1)

              I don't know what brought on this post of his above.  If I get grumpy later from a lack of an explanation I might lower the rating.

              Internet, n., A series of tubes invented by Al Gore; not a truck. "I mailed an Internet to my friend."

              by Viktor on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:29:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Again (none / 0)

                I'll take you guys word for it, judging from this, all I have is your word.  Everything else says idiot.

                Everybody dies alone.

                by Armando on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:30:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Anyway I've voted to remove the comment (none / 0)

                  and gave his other post in the diary a '4.'  Seems like a good compromise because the first reply should go...no good can come from it, I think.  :-/

                  Internet, n., A series of tubes invented by Al Gore; not a truck. "I mailed an Internet to my friend."

                  by Viktor on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 09:31:06 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  No, it wasn't (4.00 / 3)

              Tocque writes like he is, 6 foot-something worth of gentleman in your face.

              In his own obnoxious way he was making a point about how all us members have made Daily Kos what it is, and that people should not bow down to Markos.

              Which Markos would probably agree with, and basically did in his original post.

              •  Wait wait wait (4.00 / 4)

                So you're telling me you think it is okay to call people thanking markos for his work fucking idiots and syncophants all the while hypocritically doing the same thing himself while singling out one poster in a sea of similar comments?  That's allright with you?  No, no ,no no no. No fucking way.

                Everybody dies alone.

                by Armando on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:39:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Don't think that's what he did Armando (4.00 / 3)

                  And there is a great deal of sycophantism around here, especially in posts like these that tell us how great Kos is.  

                  He makes a good point, and frankly, I can understand the sentiment buried inside his posts: I get sick of those kinds of sentiments around here too, but I tend to keep quiet about it, which doesn't do anything to get people to think about what they are doing.

                  Honestly, given what I've read you do put up with and tolerate, your anger at this one post seems very misplaced to me.  

                  Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                  by a gilas girl on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 11:34:08 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No (none / 0)

                    No way. A little civilty is NOT too much to ask.

                    You reference to what I accept needs context.  Unprovoked attacks I never agree with.  I thyink my reasoning is sound here.  I find yours thin - singular for you - perhaps our most thoughtful member.

                    Everybody dies alone.

                    by Armando on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 02:55:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Let me add (none / 0)

                      That I think public figures are fair game.  I think Community members are not.

                      Provocation is required.  I consider myself a walking provocation, so shots at me are absolutely acceptable without provocation - and I receive alot of that.  But that's fine, I ask for it.

                      That's the difference.  At least for me.

                      Everybody dies alone.

                      by Armando on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 03:37:03 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Toque doesn't (none / 0)

                    agree with you.

                    Everybody dies alone.

                    by Armando on Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 08:46:32 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I switched it back to 1 (none / 0)

                on the basis of your comment.  that is not my idea of acceptable Community behavior, however nice he is in person.

                Everybody dies alone.

                by Armando on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:42:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Goddamn it (none / 1)

                I can't even read .  Sorry.  Back to 2.  so sorry.  What an idiot I am

                Everybody dies alone.

                by Armando on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:43:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  In all honesty (4.00 / 3)

              I don't see anything wrong with the comment (other than the language, but that kind of language is pretty common here and when directed at those people feel it should be directed at, no one has a problem with it, so it would be unfiar for me to single this guy out with the profanity).

              In terms of content, I agree with the comment.  

              Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

              by a gilas girl on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 11:27:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  So, Let's See If I Have This (none / 1)

            right?  it's ok to trash people for saying thank you?

            Since when did that happen?  Gotta tell my mom how she scewed up with me 'cause she made a big deal about it.

            So, the proper way to address someone who says thank you is with insults?

            Well, Tokey boy 'til my mom agrees with this new approach to manners, you can SHOVE IT!

            (Thanks Teresa!)

            Toque's post was not a hell of a lot different than any troll post I've seen, here.

            No sale, hamletta.

            BTW, Kos, THANX.

            You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

            by mattman on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 10:30:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  And uh thanks Markos (none / 1)

          Alot to be proud of.

          Everybody dies alone.

          by Armando on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:17:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  For those whose blood is boiling... (none / 1)

          here is the explanation, downthread a ways, after lots of argumentation:
          -----
          "My apologies to all for this post (4.00 / 11)

          I shouldn't post when I drink. I usually regret it. While I do think this site is more about people power than any individual, my rudeness was highly inappropriate and for that I apologise.
          If it's any consolation, I'm paying for it today. Now I have to go and take some more Advil.

          Truth is just observation verified...

          by TocqueDeville on Thu Aug 5th, 2004 at 12:31:14 PST "
          ------

          Rather late to post this up here, I suppose.  but if I can save someone else from getting needlessly riled up, or saying something they would later regret, then maybe I done good.  

          Cheers all.  (and thanks Kos for maintaining a great site  8^)

          the injectapods look like nothing less than lobsters with bat wings. "I don't know, but I don't like it," says Agar, throwing a stick at the beastie

          by stevelu on Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 12:00:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you (none / 0)

            here is the explanation, downthread a ways, after lots of argumentation

            I truly did not mean to cause an argument. I never saw this coming or I wouldn't have posted anything at all.

            Thanks to everyone reading. Sorry about the disruption. I think I've said enough now for at least a month.

      •  Well (4.00 / 6)

        You know, you cannot have empowerment of the people without a leader to secure these liberties and rights of the people to weigh in. Kos is a revolutionary, someone who expanded the boundaries. Sure, this isnt about Kos, this is about US. However, KOS made it possible and KOS took the initiative. When Howard Dean was up, he wasnt my favorite candidate. But he did spark a revolution as a leader. Even as a leader his campaign was focused on empowerment of the people. Kos was similar to that...

        He's always going to be a leader and visionary in my mind, and possibly if this whole blog thing blows up and dominates the way the media expects.. possibly historically, as well.

      •  Enough with your shallow proclamations (3.86 / 15)

        Are you people fuckin idiots? The daily kos isn't about Kos, it's about you.

        As it happens, no. I'm not a fucking idiot. I'm an administrator on one of Edwards' campaign sites, so I have a small idea of how much time and work blogs require.

        I'm sorry, when I see people trying to mythologize someone I get nausiated.

        Mythologize? Get over yourself. Please.

        Kos, you have an obligation to stem this tide. If you don't, then you're a phony.

        He has an obligation to tell me to shut up for thanking him? If he accepts a compliment, or just doesn't lash out in self-righteous indignation as you've done in this post, he's a phony?

        Respect is important. Courtesy is equally important. Someday, maybe you'll understand this. It's your problem; certainly not mine.

        •  Exactly (4.00 / 3)

          There was a good point in that first reply, DKos is about the community. That's what makes it strong.

          But that fact isn't in conflict with Avila's thank you post. Kos realized that community was important at the very beginning and helped build it. That makes him worthy of much thanks.

          We may all be the thing, but he's a great part of the glue that holds the thing together.

          And there was never any reason to call us idiots for being glad Kos built this site.

          "...with Liberty and Justice for All."

          by cshardie on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 10:44:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Good point (none / 1)

        Toque, you are not wrong here.  The-prophet-in-his-own-time blues -- I hear it and I sympathize!
      •  It takes Two to Make a Things go Right (none / 1)

        Though a bit Harsh I agree
        This site is really what the internet is about
        Free exchange of ideas
        Just like Obama, how people immediately deified him and not the message which is just as or more important. Thank God for sites like this that are inclusive, allow the free exchange of ideas and remains fresh and up to date. How long will it last?

        "If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you suck seed."--Curly Howard

        by JackAshe on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 11:45:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  My apologies to all for this post (4.00 / 11)

        I shouldn't post when I drink. I usually regret it. While I do think this site is more about people power than any individual, my rudeness was highly inappropriate and for that I apologise.

        If it's any consolation, I'm paying for it today. Now I have to go and take some more Advil.

      •  It's spelled (none / 0)

        N A U S E A T E D


        Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed. -- Bruce Springsteen

        by Plutonium Page on Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 02:04:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  DSCC (none / 1)

      Could it be that Kos spends so much time critiquing the DCCC and not the DSCC because the DSCC has paid him as a consultant/vendor?  Really, how different are they? Just a thought.
    •  Man, I've got to stop sleeping! (none / 0)

      I miss out on all the really good fights.

      "There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams.

      by mcjoan on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 12:53:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  kudos for chosing Scoop, (none / 0)

       got many kudos for chosing Scoop,

      spelling/ should be CHOOSING

      intrepid copy editor to the stars

  •  Thanks (4.00 / 6)

    I was sent here recently after I complained to my fiance that Blog for America was sorely lacking, both in the content of the threads (no more "news round-ups"), and in the shallowness of the comments.

    Thanks for all you've done, and for encouraging actual thought.


    Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed. -- Bruce Springsteen

    by Plutonium Page on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 05:02:59 AM PDT

    •  Ditto... (4.00 / 2)

      I migrated to the dKos from BlogForAmerica and am thankful that I have a place to call home... a placer where I am surrounded by at least some largely minded folks instead of the right-wing-nuts I live elbow-to-elbow with here in Georgia.

      "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves."

      by skeptic tank on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:24:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Same here (none / 1)

        I was a regular on BFA at least through the demise of the Dean campaign and creation of Democracy For America.  Once the transition took place, though, I found BFA to be way too immature and sycophantic for my tastes, even as an avowed and loyal Deaniac.

        The discourse on this site is almost entirely (see above) mature, thoughtful, and engaging.  I have found myself more and more taking advantage of the functionality of the site, including the diaries and comment ratings, and dKos now is one of the first sites I visit each day (after my obligatory check-up on Buccaneers news - priorities, you know).  So, thanks, from this loyal "Blue Man" trying to hold his own in a sea of red.

        Join the snark-a-thon at Blast Off!, for a unique view of Florida and national politics!

        by Sinfonian on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 10:37:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Same (none / 0)

      with me.  I used to read and post on blogforamerica daily, not anymore.

      I like discussion, using fact to support an opinion, and reading all of those who post here.

      This blog has become my daily addiction.

      AfterHoursStamper.blogspot.com

      by SanJoseLady on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 11:11:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Aye-aye. (none / 0)

      DFA is chartered for some fairly specific tasks, but the blog is routinely either irrelevant or dominated by opponents of core values of the organization.

      Thanks so much Kos for your attention to the boundaries of free speech. The volume of good content here is sobering.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 11:36:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  BlogforAmerica seems so long ago.... (none / 0)

        Yet it was only last year this time I used to haunt it as I now do Kos! I used to post as JenInSC at bfa, if anyone remembers that. Exciting times those were, but dKos actually has a broader purpose and I like it SO much better. Better features, better content, more open discussion of a variety of topics. Oh... and much better troll management.

        Don't blame me. I voted for the SMART one.

        by gogaddy on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 12:10:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I remember (none / 0)

          You took the lead in starting totally grassroots "letters to South Carolina".  Amazing how many of us from the BFA heyday are here.
          •  Yes! That was me! (none / 0)

            I remember you too, DL. I'm having a "Wizard of Oz" moment ... and you were there, and you... was it all a dream? Ha ha.

            Not that the letter-writing did a lot of apparent good for Dean in South Carolina, but you never know what kind of subtle influence it had. I still have the handwritten letters and postcards from all over America, with people's requests for South Carolinians to write to. The sincerity of them literally makes me tear up.

            I can tell you that the Dean supporters in my area have kickstarted the local party into life. It's heartening. We learned so much from such a short time on that campaign.

            Don't blame me. I voted for the SMART one.

            by gogaddy on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 02:52:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Heh (none / 0)

      When I saw that handle, it occured to me that it might be you.  A belated welcome to Kos!
  •  First of many (4.00 / 4)

    Thank you kos. I've even liked Fishyshark (you have an adorable baby).

    You've gotten me to be more of a writer, and someday, when I get a real computer, I'll start my own blog. And have you to thank.

    Hopefully the candidates who you've supported both financially and otherwise will at least post a thank-you as well.

    A Crushie for Democracy

    by CarolDuhart on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 05:03:17 AM PDT

    •  I found Kos via Atrios (none / 0)

      We should mention this site's 'baby' bounce when Kos' new son was born. I was a free for all that week.

      Also, remember those 'I found IT' bumper stickers. Someone should create an 'I found Kos' equiv.

      ~ have a powerful day ~

      by moeman on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 10:19:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Glad you did it (4.00 / 4)

    and glad I found it.  It's been a very good source of information, as well as a great source to let off steam and discuss issues instead of just letting all this sh** go through my head all night and not get any sleep!
  •  As I watched the Democratic convention (3.66 / 6)

    I thought " this would be different- and far, far worse- without two people, Kos and Dean". We probably would have nominated some piecard like Gep- or God forbid, Leiberman- and the whole slant of the (losing) campaign would have been far to the right. By creating a genuine on-line lefty community you have helped give the Dems some cojones this year, and may have saved the country in the process. I think we're about to oust the usurper, but come what may- a continuing fight for progressive change,or to retake congress, or civil war, we won't be isolated anymore. Thank you Kos.

    A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free people.

    by faugh a ballagh on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 05:13:55 AM PDT

    •  Empowering the keyboards, creating a community (4.00 / 3)

      Kos, you deserve kudos for creating a sense of empowerment for those of us who spend a good portion of the day in front of the keyboard.  The fundraising prowess for candidates, encouraging letters to the editor, keeping important news stories alive, and on, and on.  

      This space has also allowed me to try to hang on to a few shreds of humanity through all of the cynical political stuff that goes on.  The personal stories, reflections back on times (like Vietnam) that I am too young to recall properly, and most poignantly updates from Big Okie, Rev and others on their kids in Iraq help to make this much more than a discussion board.  This is a community, and the status quo underestimates our power.

  •  Yes, very true about Diaries... (none / 0)

    I remember in October and a bit into November, people used them for diverse bits of writing, poetry and even travel memories ... who knew? ...;-)

    Thank You Kos.

  •  Scoop is very under-rated (none / 1)

    I know it has a huge number of annoyances and general weirdness but it is a pretty damn good way to run a large traffic comment driven site without having to drive a few lone moderators insane.

    --

    •  Scoop should get its own site working (none / 0)

      At the bottom of DailyKos, there's a Powered by Scoop
      link, which links to Scoop's home page at http://scoop.kuro5hin.org/ Sadly, I've never seen the site actually working.

      Perhaps the link should be redirected to Scoop on Sourceforge until the other page is more stable.

      how can i turn italics off in my signature?

      by fightcentristbias on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 08:08:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We're working on it (none / 0)

        It usually does work fine. It's been down for a couple days, and I think is moving soon.

        Incidentally, Scoop is entirely off Sourceforge now. The historical record is still there, but it isn't used for any development. Ironically enough, it's because SF was so unreliable. Sigh.


        --
        I am a reform Democrat.

        by rusty on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 11:49:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  thank you, kos (none / 0)

    now go to bed...it's late

    Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

    by gracchus on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 05:18:11 AM PDT

  •  See, it isn't that hard to be a wise leader (4.00 / 4)

    Kos has the best site I have ever seen, and he got there by making solid decisions that paid an unexpected bonus. KOS is a brilliant leader in this field.

    Thanks for being great, we all need it

  •  Life's made up of (4.00 / 3)

    half thought-out decisions and unintended consequences.

    Yours appear to have been pretty good--which speaks to intentions and intuitions.

    And luck.  But no one ever said being lucky was a bad thing.

    We need not think alike to love alike -- Ferenc Dávid

    by ogre on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 05:21:11 AM PDT

  •  Congradulations on Choosing Scoop (4.00 / 3)

    Jefferson would be proud of the concept that is now everyday on the DailyKos: real people debating the ideas and direction of our democracy.

    In fact, I'm certain that Jefferson would see this new technology as the saving grace of the principles of our Republic that are so endangered by the corporate controlled media.

    I don't know who deserves more props, Kos or the thousands of contributors that make up this online movement, but I feel extremely comforted that as our government becomes more and more captivated by those who would attempt to consolidate power, we are here to check and balance that power in ways that traditional forms of journalism have shown to be an utter failure.

    Yes, I said failure. Unfortunately, Tom Brokaw et al. will catch on to their obsolescence shortly after it's too late to reverse it.

    Will Kos be the future replacement? No. You will.

    The paradigm shift has already occured: You are the journalist now.

     

  •  regarding chasing off right wing flaming strawmen (none / 1)

    Do you still have to do that by hand, or do you find that scoop's moderation features does it for you?
  •  Congratulations (none / 1)

    I found the Blogsphere in Febuary. I was hooked immediately.
    I don't do the comment thing much. I'm not a good writter.
    These blogs are great to read.
    I've tried to donate to the canidates you've picked out.
    I will continue to be one of those 200,000 who use this site

    Thanks

  •  Blogs is kool (none / 0)

    I have to say, as a late-comer to the blogosphere that I'm glad you've done what you did.

    phat

    Economic Left/Right: -7.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.54

    by phatass on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:02:47 AM PDT

  •  The Internet = Democracy's saving grace (4.00 / 3)

    The democratic ideals are in pretty bad shape all over the western world and in particular in the USA (horrible participation rates, uninformed voters, apathetic citizens, corporate medias biased, ad-buying and dumbing down of issues, etc).

    I sincerely hope that the Internet will help to spread quality information and that it will serve as an organizational tool for the progressive movement and all the movements without the funds to fight against corporation in the traditional media arena (ie. environmental groups, etc).

    •  But that's what they said about... (4.00 / 2)

      ...radio in the beginning. And remember "educational broadcasting" from the early 70's?

      New technology seems to have been exploited by popular forces a number of times in the past, before the larger market saw its utility and coopted the system.

      The internet right now is unprecedented for the size and distribution of like-minded groups it will support. If any tool will save participatory government at this pivotal moment, it's the 'net, but that doesn't mean the technology is secure for us in the long run.

      Trends in all media (and even home relocation patterns) seem to be towards assembling like-minded communities increasingly isolated from one another. But as businesses expand they become increasingly able to span collections of communities that aren't so easily able to find and work with each other.

      Maybe I'm off base but we need to watch for signs of the top end of the economy working to contain Internet-spawned movements, and finding work-arounds.

      Given the limitations of the 'net for linking together an entire society, I think we need a significant overhaul of our handling of broadcast media too.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 12:10:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Co-oped by market forces + Larger than any one kos (none / 1)

        So glad you brought this up, Gooserock.  I tried to give you a 4, but I am still figuring out the procedure.  

        Where have I read that before--all the new technologies envisioned as tools for utopia before being wrested away for, essentially, mass mind-influencing.  Advertizing, narrowing the debate of issues, keeping the people enthralled with "the good life" and away from real issues.  "Fear and Greed" messages; not exactly the noble purposes one had hoped for.

        So I don't know where we'd be without our independent news sources/discussions.  ("Independent" being the key concept, here. Answer: up to our necks in Brave New World sh**. Gak!)  

        Kos is a godsend in these corporate-dominated-news times.  I shudder to think how we may be cut off in the future if someone figures out how to control the internet (no doubt with howls of protest, but ya never know) or just plain co-op it.  So yea to Scoop, too.

        Thanks to the Big Kos for putting together inspiration, dedication, serendipity and strategy to create something larger than any one person.   I'm addicted!  Now when we hear about anything in the news, my husband asks me, "what are they saying about it on Kos?"  

        I need a new quote or what?

        by JOyODurham on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 01:16:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  the Net is different (none / 0)

        You are right, but then, I don't think that we can compare the Internet to radio or most of the other medias that preceded it.

        The cost of entry of those was way to high, and it was impossible for a large amount of people to participate without completely saturating the shared space.

        How many millions of people have access to the internet, and how many people have a printing press or a way to talk to people on the radio at home.

        Lets not minimize the revolutionary nature of the Net. I know it's cliché, but I feel that it's true (as long as it stays open, though).

  •  Random Thought (none / 0)

    Is there a reason why Daily Kos doesn't use Trackbacks? Although, IIRC, it's an optional feature for Scoop...
  •  Hail fellow, well met. (4.00 / 2)

    Thanks, Markos, for making DailyKos an oasis in a desert full of repuglican trolls. You've made the right choices to make this place very comfortable. Yes, that's the word: comfortable.

    Best regards.

     

  •  More thanks (4.00 / 2)

    Thank you for my safe haven.
  •  Let me just say... (4.00 / 2)

    ...that I have recently wondered how this all came together into what we find here as a comfortable forum to share important ideas, debate government policy, and learn one hell of alot.  
    Although I have yet to enter a diary, I do enjoy commenting and rating now and then, and feel apart of this interesting virtual round table.  It has become reflex for me to visit dKos, and it's one of my 'Hot Buttons' on top of my expensive keyboard, right next to my email button.  
    I learn something every time I am here, which I cannot say about every site I visit here on the web.  LOL

    So, many thanks Kos, because not just anyone could have put this together.  You've made it look easy, and for that you should be quite proud.  

    Almost as proud as being a new father.  Almost.

    Thanks again.

  •  I am very thankful for this website (4.00 / 5)

    I moved to the US in 1998, during the Clinton/Strawinsky thing (I will always remember that I got married in "the year of the blow job"), and I was very amused about the whole thing. Little did I know that people were really serious with all this impeachment talk.

    Then Bush got elected, 9/11 happened and all this war talk and hate had me really scared. I got hooked really fast on the internet with sites like Buzzflash, Atrios, the Dean website, and of course this one. It gave me back my faith that there are reasonable people out there and I'm very thankful for all the intelligent and informative posts. I've learned a lot about American politics and the American people.

    The only bad thing is that this site is so damn addictive. I can't get anything done, and it will probably only get worse in the next few months.

    So, thanks to all the posters for making this site what it is.

    •  "Strawinsky" (none / 0)

      Takes a furriner to make it clear.

      That is so beautiful. In one word, you sum up the madness that consumed our public.

      Haha. Things were good then. We could afford to get funky on the funk.

      •  Strawinsky (none / 0)

        "Le Sacre du Printemps", the biggest theater scandal of the 20th century, people going mad and jumping at each other's throats - not so far off ;)

        I actually didn't even notice that I wrote "Strawinsky", it was like a reflex because that is what my mother always said whenever I talked to her on the phone about what was going on in this country.

        Strawinsky, Nijinski, Lewinsky - oh so close.

  •  thanks kos (none / 1)

    you've been a great inspiration, and the posters here are the hippest, savviest, swiftest and snarkiest group of political junkies i ever cyber-bumped into.
    you da man!
    btw, there is only one cure for this addiction: bye bush...

    why? just kos..... *just cause*

    by melo on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:24:18 AM PDT

  •  My Site. (none / 0)

    My diary kicks ass! (heh)  You're not going to get too much better than ownership of something for free.

    It'll keep me coming back, for nothing else than to archive my thoughts, after the inevitable post-election downswing.

    Would love to hear how self-sustaining the site is and will be and if we can expect our children to be able to access our diaries (surely not? but what do I know?)

  •  The thanks of a grateful nation... (4.00 / 3)

    should be on a card 10 ft. tall in your front yard...

    OK, so that might scare the baby.

    But it's the thought that counts, right?

    Blog on Kos, you're one of the few beacons of light in our darkened nation these days.

    We need ya, dude.

    Oh, and THANKS.  A lot. Really.

  •  Thanks for your work Markos (4.00 / 3)

    This is one of the best political websites.  I don't think it'd be the same if it weren't for your and everyone else's contributions that make up the front page of the site.  Along with the software, which works well.

    Also, a thank you is extended to all the good commentors.  :)

    Long live Daily Kos.

    :)

    Internet, n., A series of tubes invented by Al Gore; not a truck. "I mailed an Internet to my friend."

    by Viktor on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 06:35:22 AM PDT

  •  Shameless (blush) Compliment. (none / 1)

    If there is a better political website blog, I haven't found it.

    Almost invariably provocotive insight, behind the scenes hard work, and bright, knowledgeable contributors.

    This site is excellent, not only for Kos, but for the contributors attracted.

  •  many thanks (none / 0)

    for:
    1. being supportive when I wanted to set up a blog for the Dems in Japan.
    2. Being one of my 2, essential home sites: blogforamerica is my family of choice, where I learn a lot, too; kos is my very own political university, where I sometimes get the courage to say a thing or two.
    fishyshark has been great as well, you have a lovely family.
  •  I came to Kos the same way (none / 0)

    I found PolWire via Buzzflash, when he shut down his comments I emailed him about it.  He actually emailed me back!  I found Kos just a few weeks after he hit the scene and I have been here ever since.  This is my favorite place to be - great discussions, self policing (for the most part) and always entertaining.  Sometimes we are an echo chamber but there is always someone ready to mix things up.

    My car has injured fewer people than Dick Cheney's guns.

    by bulldog on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 07:51:13 AM PDT

  •  The way I think it is supposed to work (none / 1)

    "Sometimes we are an echo chamber but there is always someone ready to mix things up."

    I think what happens is that this is a place which allows the contributors and visitors a chance to explore the nuances and complexities of an issue in a day when we hear from the mainstream media nothing but incessant droning of talking points.  (my two cents)

    Republicans are afflicted by CHIDS-Chronic Humor and Irony Deficit Syndrome, pronounced 'kids' with a parental sigh.

    by stumpy on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 08:13:10 AM PDT

  •  The way I think it is supposed to work (none / 0)

    "Sometimes we are an echo chamber but there is always someone ready to mix things up."

    I think what happens is that this is a place which allows the contributors and visitors a chance to explore the nuances and complexities of an issue in a day when we hear from the mainstream media nothing but incessant droning of talking points.  (my two cents)

    Republicans are afflicted by CHIDS-Chronic Humor and Irony Deficit Syndrome, pronounced 'kids' with a parental sigh.

    by stumpy on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 08:14:14 AM PDT

  •  the Key is in the Software (4.00 / 2)

    Opportunism, mixed in with blind luck and a dose of branding. The secret of my success.

    I think that the real key was what you said here

    I had learned my lessons from Political Wire and MyDD's community failures, and immediately shut the door on the Republican commenters who had destroyed the previous sites' communities. I zealously worked to create a "safe zone" for liberal political junkies, despite howls of "censorship" from both liberals and conservatives, and the community grew.

    The real key to dKos's success is the ability to keep out the right wing trolls and other types of hyperactive cranks that, over time,  wrecked every other liberal online forum.  I too started out on Delphi and I still go there, but only because I got invited into an invitation-only forum where there are only a handful of right wingers and they are all people who, I suppose because they are also lawyers, feel required to follow some real rules of debate.

    When I first came here I read up on the stuff about "trusted users" and "wampum" and updated average scores for more recent posts and I was glad to see that at least someone understood the problem.  But I still just figured that I had better start  participating quick before a right wing hacker figured out how to somehow game the system and mess it up.  It has not happened yet (or if it has you have stopped it).

    The protections against significant penetration by hostile elements provided by Scoop and similar systems seem to be one of those rare but significant cases where changes in technology really do advance things on the cultural side and political side.

    •  The weekend pre-Scoop (none / 0)

      here was a nightmare.  A troll or trolls had discovered the inconvenient fact that posting under some other user's name, particularly if you started slow and then amped it up, would result in the total hijacking of any thread.  Just about every other comment was "the xFart posting at 14:45 was not me - I am the real xFart", which given that the troll/trolls was/were injecting similar comments, didn't serve to calm things down.  Whatever resistance there might have been to registering on the new and improved Scoop based dKos blew away on the wind, the sigh of relief was felt around the blogosphere.

      The Scoop rollout saved this site.  And just in time - it would not have lasted out the month.  And just as it was gaining real recognition, hmm.

      Even paranoids have real enemies.

      •  I remember that well (none / 1)

        I've often wondered what it is about Atrios (the other blog I visit and comment on regularly) that keeps the trolls away.  It's certainly not HaloScan, because there's no screening of comments or deterrence to name-stealing at all.

        I'm constantly amazed that Atrios isn't a troll-fest the way dKos got to be on that last pre-Scoop weekend (I started to say "B.S. - Before Scoop," but the other connotations aren't necessarily desirable <grin>).  Perhaps it's attributable to a few of the regulars there just beating the trolls into silence and the rest of us refusing to feed them.  No response = no trolls (usually), in the absence of another policing mechanism like Scoop provides.

        Join the snark-a-thon at Blast Off!, for a unique view of Florida and national politics!

        by Sinfonian on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 10:45:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Trolls on Atrios (none / 0)

          Atrios gets trolls, but he's not shy about deleting their posts.

          Also, his "trustys" are experts at recognizing trolls and burning them to a crisp in short order.

          I believe in free speech, but these two blogs are the ones I visit most because the 'safety' of a virtually troll-free zone allows people to really riff on ideas, and it lets the rest of us learn a lot.

          Also, what with media consolidation, this kind of two-way discussion is absolutely essential to democracy. You can't find this anywhere else -- not in newspapers, only lately on the radio, and especially not on TV.

          If Kos gets kudos for anything, I think that is the primary point.

          My one wish is that he could convince the folks at MoveOn to stop using "ActionForum" for their "where should we go?" discussions, and use Scoop instead.

    •  Kos probably doesn't know it... (none / 0)

      But he way he's used some of Scoop's community and admin features here is really what I think has made the difference. The ratings system has provided the site with a good number of people who are willing to troll-rate annoying commenters, and they do. However, that alone doesn't really work. Scoop is basically a big experiment in how community forum software can help users make better communities, and the biggest lesson so far is that members alone still cannot completely withstand a determined attack.

      Kos goes into the hidden comments here from time to time, to see who's being annoying today, and kicks them out. Sure, they can register a new account and come back, but they've got to wait a while before they can start posting again. Or they can register a few accounts all at once and replenish them as needed. But still, it's a matter of two clicks for Kos and another tedious signup for the troll. It definitely shifts the balance.

      And by using the hidden comments as an ongoing community abuse report, Kos and perhaps one or two other people can easily keep a good handle on things, without spending all of their time reading everything to find the trolls. This balance of filtering-up moderation seems to work really well, and I think Kos is the first to use it in this particular way. Most sites either go fully admin-controlled and ignore moderation, or go fully community-controlled and try to let the users do everything.

      Anyway, it's been really interesting for me to see how this community has developed. The experiment continues... :-)


      --
      I am a reform Democrat.

      by rusty on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 10:55:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  a real success (none / 1)

    Kos,

    Your real success is to create something that is self-sustaining. For as much as most blogs have some idiosyncratic voice focused on a particular issue (food, games, themselves!, etc.), they often descend into pure navel gazing. DailyKos has always seemed more like a listserv: you sign up, it's moderated, it's topical, and it's communal.

    In the end the blogosphere may be Al Gore's ultimate revenge. He didn't invent it, but thank goodness as a senator he supported the science behind it.

    "The entire world is a very narrow bridge, and the main thing is not to be afraid at all" Rabbi Nachman of Bratslav

    by Patch in Bklyn on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 08:24:58 AM PDT

  •  I'm still vaguely annoyed (none / 1)

    that I couldn't quite make into the first 100 people to migrate when scoop came in. C'est la vie, we knew you when ;)
    •  I realize it doesn't mean anything... (none / 0)

      ...but I got in at #47, and for some reason always found it a point of pride. If I had a dime for every time I came to Daily Kos, I'd have a pretty serious chunk of change.

      Hell, it seems like half the time I write an entry to my own blog it's based on information I've found from someone's diary here. I rarely surf CNN or other so-called news sites anymore -- DKos is my one-stop shop.

      You really do deserve major props for what you've accomplished here, Kos. Kudos and huzzahs all around.

      Tilting at windmills, with the proper armor and enough firepower, can be a productive effort. http://www.43rdstateblues.com

      by Serephin on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 10:26:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I slept in that day (none / 0)

        Oh well, my party card is still in three digits.
    •  #100 (none / 0)

      I got in just under the wire... The first few hundred were gobbled up fast!

      The best thing about the scoop migration, imo, was the threaded comments.  It was way too hard to follow the unthreaded conversations on the Movable Type version of dKos.

  •  Good choice Scoop especially because (none / 1)

    comments can have comments. When that's true it makes every comment its own blog.

    Now if you (Kos, you in there? Knock, knock) could just get Rusty of Scoop to apply the very simple patch that exists on other Scoop sites that would allow polls that allow for multiple choices to be picked in the same poll. Could you yank Rusty's chain sometime, Kos?

    •  Rusty has his plate full (none / 0)

      The list is LONG.

      Rateable diaries, a subscription, ad-free version of the site for those who hate the ads, new layout for the User Box (which will reclaim a great deal of front-page real estate, see OurCongress), dKosopedia stuff, more robust RSS and miscellaneous other tweaks.

      I'll add the poll stuff at the bottom of the list :)

    •  That patch (none / 0)

      ...is wending its way through the bowels of Scoop development, on its way to being included in CVS and full citizenship in the Great Nation of Official Scoop Features.

      You can rest assured that as soon as it's in the standard Scoop codebase, it will appear here on our next update. We have one update coming up very soon that it will almost certainly not be part of. But likely the one after that.

      As to why wait, I don't like putting non-standard stuff on production sites (though God knows I do it often enough -- maybe that's why I don't like it. :-)) And a site as busy as this, the added headaches of pre-integrated code are just not worth it.


      --
      I am a reform Democrat.

      by rusty on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 11:46:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Scoop was a brilliant choice (3.66 / 3)

    Political blogs tend to degenerate into two extremes. Most are either taken over (or at least damaged) by trolls, or the moderator shuts down all dissenting voices, period.

    Scoop allows the community of regular participants to control the level of discourse. This allows for dissenting views but keeps the board from being destroyed by fools. Of course, our bias is liberal and there are no doubt readers of InstaPundit who would say that DailyKos has by definition already been destroyed by fools. But screw 'em.

    Kos's savvy and benevolent oversight (rare in someone who looks by his photos to be about 23)  and brilliant commentatary by guest moderators help to make this site what it is. However, the biggest reason is the interface. Which, of course, Kos selected.

  •  Great site, Kos, but... (none / 0)

    are you sure you really get 200,000 visits per DAY, or 6 million visits per MONTH?  That seemed really high to me, since the very popular website of the government agency where I work gets about 40,000 visits per day (1.2 million per month).   I checked Alexa, and they rank DailyKos slightly higher than my agency's website, implying that you should be getting in the 200,000-250,000 visits per month range.  I also checked Ranking.com and according to them DailyKos gets about 5,000 visits per day, if I'm reading it right, which would translate to 150,000 per month.  Also according to them, my agency's website gets around 6,800 visits per day, or about 200,000 visits per month, which indeed is what our statistics show.

    Again, though, whatever your number of visits, you are awesome and have a fantastic site.  Great work!

    Thank you for visiting Raising Kaine, the voice of Progressive Virginia.

    by lowkell on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 08:50:22 AM PDT

    •  200,000 site visits a day? (4.00 / 3)

      Jeebus, half of them are just Armando and JamesB3 jawing away!

      (I couldn't resist, love both of you guys!)

      Who will stop this war of lies? Keith Olbermann May 23rd, 2007

      by Ed in Montana on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 09:43:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Click on the link (none / 0)

      And you'll see the stats. Or you can check out Scoop's own traffic tool, which counts database hits, much more accurate than Sitemeter, which I keep for an apples-to-apple comparison with other blogs.
      •  I checked with our web guru (none / 0)

        and, according to him, the numbers you're citing are almost certainly "hits," not "visits."  The difference between "hits" and "visits" can be a factor of 10, 20, or even 100, depending on the type of site.  According to opentracker.com, "For example, if you have a page with 10 pictures, then a request to a server to view that page generates 11 hits (10 for the pictures, and one for the html file). A page view can contain hundreds of hits. This is the reason that we measure page views and not hits."

        Thank you for visiting Raising Kaine, the voice of Progressive Virginia.

        by lowkell on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 01:24:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Dude (none / 0)

          Not HITS.

          Visits.

          If we were counting hits, I'd be in the millions a day. Check out the links I offered. You'll see the stats broken down.

        •  But if you want to count pageviews (none / 0)

          Then here is the sitemeter link to page views. About 300,000/day.
        •  Stats (none / 0)

          The "Pages" numbers here show exactly how many times Scoop generated a page. That doesn't count images, css files, and associated cruft -- just legit page views. That tends to be the only number I give any credence to, because as far as web stats are concerned, it's the only one that means anything. "Visits" are bandied about a lot, but there is no meaningful definition for what a visit is. "Unique visits" are even sillier, since there's no way to determine whether two given pageviews are different people or not. "Hits" (counting all files) are, as you said, generally inflated. Everything else is just rules-of-thumb and estimates.

          Kos usually goes by sitemeter, which features spectacularly incomprehensible numbers. I honestly have no idea what they count. The good thing about sitemeter is that all the bloggers use it, so you can compare one blog to another with sitemeter. But for the actual numbers -- I wouldn't try to puzzle out what they mean.

          Also, Alexa numbers are just plain wrong. I have seen them under- and overcount by a factor of ten. Alexa numbers don't even allow you to meaningfully compare different sites within Alexa. At one point Alexa had Metafilter ranked higher than Kuro5hin, when I knew from server logs (on both sites) that K5 did something like 5 times as many pages as MeFi.  

          Anyway, I agree with your web guru -- pages are the only meaningful stat, and you can get raw page view numbers at the link above. dKos serves up (lately) around 330,000 pages a day. Last month it did about 7.3 million pages total. This site really does get an astounding amount of traffic.

          Sorry for the mini-rant on web stats. :-)


          --
          I am a reform Democrat.

          by rusty on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 11:36:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  averages (none / 0)

      Maybe the sites you're checking are averaging things out. Are the stats you see for this month specifically or just a general number? It's certainly possible that the hits and views have gone way up on this site in the last few weeks because of the convention and gearing up of the campaign.

      "...with Liberty and Justice for All."

      by cshardie on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 02:08:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This site (4.00 / 1)

    It came dangerously close to being the unoffical Howard Dean campaign site. I wasn't happy with how I was treated back in the primary times. Anyone not for Dean was flamed day and night without mercy. Nevertheless, the site survived that time and has matured.
    •  That's true... (none / 1)

      as a big-time Clark supporter, and someone who thought nominating Dean would have handed the election to Bush on a silver platter, I was not exactly welcomed with open arms here during the campaign.  However, I say "let bygones be bygones" -- we're all united behind one cause now, electing Kerry and defeating Bush!

      Thank you for visiting Raising Kaine, the voice of Progressive Virginia.

      by lowkell on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 09:03:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Very True (none / 0)

        I totally agree and that's why I still come here. Bush must be defeated who our candidate is at this point is ironically secondary. The country is  in the hands of the most radical group of individuals in our history and we have to take it back for the sake of our children's future if nothing else at this point. Kerry is a deeply flawed individual but he stands head and shoulders above Bu$h and the rest of his criminal gang. God help all of us if we lose.
    •  I never got that impression (none / 1)

      To be honest I never got that impression, while there was always a healthy Dean support section here, I don't think it ever became a majority, though it probably managed a plurality.

      I think the Deanies often got very vehement because criticisms of Dean often came in the form of people dismissing him as a crank and a sure loser.  I can't remember anyone ever getting flamed by Deanies specifically for promoting another candidate, only for running down Dean in a way they disagreed with.

      Admittedly there were some candidates you couldn't talk up around here (Lieberman, and to a certain extent Gephardt and Kerry) but those pile-ons drew just as heavily from those who supported other people.

      The Clarkies especially had a viable and visible presence, though while he was the second or third choice for alot of Deanies, Clark supporters are the one's who pop to mind most easily when I remember people complaining of Dean bias.

      Then of course there was the ever annoying ABK posters after Iowa, but that's another story.

      Anyway, just my recollection of things.

      The lever is easy, it's finding a place to stand that's the hard bit.

      by Nick on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 10:14:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  based on notoriously inaccurate polling (3.50 / 2)

        at the height of Dean mania, Dean supporters (including lurkers) were something like 70% of the site, with Clark supporters being the majority of the rest. Edwards was probably 3rd. Kerry was not even on the map. This makes total sense. We are a very particular slice of the Dem electorate (more likely to be wired, less likely to want to compromise), so comments here ought to be filtered through that lense. Incidentally, I always thought there were more Clarkies than that until I offered the poll, because the Clarkies certainly gave as good as they got.

        Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

        by JMS on Thu Aug 05, 2004 at 10:48:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  A certain amount of selective hearing (4.00 / 4)

         or memory going on dKos.  (And not by Nick, whose recollections are right on).

        Rick Robinson (al-Fubar) was a constant presense here and forthright in his opinion that Dean was absolutely not the right choice and that Clark was.  But he never got thrashed or trashed by other regulars because he always posted with a combination of rationality and humor that meant disagreeing with him online was both a challenge and a pleasure.

        The same cannot be said for some of the Dean bashers.  "Dean cannot be elected because voters won't elect an angry man, why? because I said so you fucking losers".  Which given that many of those same posters were wondering (often angrily) why we were not lining up like sheep behind the cakewalk that would be Iraq: "Directly oppose a popular war-time President?  What are you morons?"  led to a little harsh language on both sides.

        People here and on other sites often talk about the echo chamber effect at dKos.  Well it wasn't like that 14 months ago.  The warbloggers came around regularly.  Tacitus was unending in his condescension, explaing exactly why we knew exactly nothing about how the military worked (despite many of us being vets) and why this war was going to be proved necessary, cheap, and death free.  And he was welcomed because at least he was always polite, and his arguments always rational (not always well-reasoned, but at least rational).  Some of his fellow war-bloggers were far from being either rational or polite.

        Well what was at one point a decidedly minority view "Bush worst President ever, Iraq war a cluster fuck" is now at least a narrow majority one.  And people who want to take an opposing view better come prepared.  Which given that we dwell in a fact based reality presents some difficulties.  dKos to some degree is an echo chamber: but what I hear faintly echoing is "we were right about Bush and Iraq, you were wrong" and from the other side "wah, wah, we can't hear you"

        (And I'll admit we were harsh on Kerry.  Because until about a week before Iowa he was to all appearances running the most inept campaign in history. )