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People, the truth can no longer be avoided, or postponed, or parsed. We no longer have the luxury of hoping that the political dialogue in this country is just that: dialogue. Something shared between reasonable people who, at the end of the day, still respect one another.

In the last 7 days, the stakes have risen in our rhetorical battle with those on the political right, and they have declared their bonafides: We are traitors and they intend to treat us as such.

This webpage is one of the most disgraceful outrages I've ever had the misfortune to happen upon on the internet. I came across this latest project by David Horowitz through Eric Alterman's blog, where he teased, "Is Bruce a communist? Read about it here."

This slander, no matter how absurd you think it may be, cannot be allowed to go unchallenged. Because for every outrage unchallenged, those that perpetrate the outrage are that much more emboldened to do it again. And worse.

And this is just one of several such developments during this past week. More on the flip.

Update [2005-2-21 16:41:27 by bigskiphazzy]:I've been amazed and heartened by the amount of dialogue this diary has generated. I intend to print the whole thread and compile a list of action items. Thanks to all. Now, some have opined that it might not be the best tactic to respond to such a "fringe" website, which could potentially draw more viewers to their site. Well here's my answer: Time Magazine, with its 4,189,981 subscribers worldwide, named this jackass's rantings as the "blog of the year." A man who essentially called Jimmy Carter, ex-President of the United States, evangelical Christian, humanitarian and Nobel Prize winner, a TRAITOR, is Time's blogger of the year. Now you tell me, should we be responding to these fringe websites? (Thanks Digby for the link, via kos.) ----- I'm going to frame this simply: This is a goddamn blacklist! Let there be no mistake: Nothing short of that. We are the enemy. They are compiling lists, brazenly linking us with sworn enemies of the United States, and delivering to the world a nifty search engine for anybody looking for slanderous "talking points" in which to poison the debate.

Before I wrote this diary, I searched the KOS diaries and found only three diaries on the subject, none of which was recommended and, between them, there was only 18 total recommendations.

 For the most part, kossacks poked fun at the site, wondering how to get on it, who they left off, and why their coding was so shoddy. Well and good to have some laughs.

But folks, this shit AIN'T funny! This shit is dangerous. This shit is insidious. And this shit cannot go unanswered! If people think that Horowitz is baiting us - I'm no Horowitz scholar, I admit - well I'm saying that the we have to take the bait!

Am I the only one who sees a picture of Barack Obama next to the mug shot of Ayatollah Khomeini and wonders what the fuck??? Bill Moyer's picture is just below that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the recently dubbed "face of terror?"  Bruce Springsteen and Mohammed Atta on the same list? Folks, you need to go over there and have a look.

In the introduction of  the "individuals" page, the professed goal of the project:

examines activists for leftwing agendas and causes, radical egalitarians, and opponents of American 'imperialism.'

By cynically equating Howard Dean, for example, and Fidel Castro under this thesis - essentally postulating that all "activists" on this list have the same goal: to bring America down - they plant the seeds. And its from these seeds that the hammer, which pounds dissent into useless shards, begins to grow.

If this were an isolated incident, maybe I'd think we should be more measured in our response. But consider this:

This web project,, was officially launched on Feb. 15, 2005, which happened to be the same day that New York State GOP Chairman Stephen Minarik said this about the Democratic Party and Chairman Howard Dean. Dean is:

the personification of today's national Democratic Party _ elite, radical, out-of-control, and sadly out-of-touch with ordinary Americans. The Democrats simply have refused to learn the lessons of the past two election cycles, and now they can be accurately called the party of Barbara Boxer, Lynne Stewart and Howard Dean.

Now it's not bad enough that a State party leader equated the Democratic Party Chairman and an outspoken Democratic Senator with a woman recently convicted of aiding and abetting a terrorist, but when Dean demanded an apology, Minarik basically told him to go Cheney himself. At the same time, a Republican Jewish group launches an ad trying to link Dean to terrorism.

All this in the span of a week.

And folks, what's been going on as a backdrop to all this? You got it. The Conservative Political Action Conference, starring Ann Coulter, Ollie North, Michelle "I never met a minoritiy I wouldn't racially profile or intern" Malkin and all the hatred you can fit under one giant big tent. Keynote Speaker: The big dick himself. Richard Go-Fuck-Yourself Cheney.

Here's our good friend Ann at CPAC:

"Liberals like to scream and howl about McCarthyism, I say let's give them some. They've have intellectual terror on campus for's time for a new McCarthyism."

Does it alarm anyone but me that the Vice President of the United States of America is the featured guest at a conference where speaker after speaker are rallying for a "new McCarthyism"? Fuck me. Orwell's editor would have CUT this past week from the manuscript, claiming the author was DIVORCED FROM REALITY. (Gratuitous Hookergate reference. My obsession with watching that story unfold has most likely delayed this diary.)

Read Oliver Willis's chilling assessmentof the state of things at the CPAC convention:

Wake up, folks. We're in an ideological war with these folks and the sooner you realize that the better. The goal of the modern conservative movement, as embodied by George W. Bush, is not just a simple majority of conservative thought - rather, it is the elimination of everything but conservative thought.

And don't think for a minute that Horowitz didn't have someone down there pimping his blacklist database, getting it into the hands of every fevor-pitched kool-aid drinking orc they could find.

If we don't fight this right fucking now, it'll be harder the next time. It's up to us. We can't bang our heads against fucking Ken Salazar for next 4 years hoping for a miracle. There ain't gunna be NO Miracle, Armando. Reid's doing his part. We ... Don't ... Govern ... Get it? And if we don't stand up against cocksuckers like Horowitz and Minarik right now, they're gunna be throwing a lot more people in jail than just Lynne Stewart and a bunch of US citizens that just happen to be of "middle-eastern descent."

Look, here's the final paragraph of discoverthenetwork's mission statement:

The disingenuous tradition of the political left has continued into the present. In the 1960s, the radical organizers of the mass anti-war demonstrations pretended that their only interest was to "Bring the Troops Home," when in fact their agendas embraced a radical menu that was anti-capitalist and welcomed a Communist victory. In the campaign against the war in Iraq, a similar pattern emerged, as the information provided in this database clearly demonstrates."

Now, let me ask you something, does this tortured logic start to make sense when you go back and look at some of the motives of the McCarthy witch hunts, and specifically, the hollywood blacklist?

Liberalism, not Communism, may, in fact, have been the true target of the HUAC investigators. The Right wished to discourage any Hollywood impulse to make films advocating social change at home or critical of foreign policy.

So here's what I'm asking of you folks. We need to put together a response.

We need an orchestrated effort to isolate all the lies and distortions and outrages put forth on the discoverthenetwork project and we need to begin this campaign NOW!

I think we can put together a petition - I think I saw a free online service - get a name and start contacting the media. I also think we must contact "friends" on that list of support and/or a statement. If we can't get this web site to retract its slander, then I'm proposing that we organize a rally. People for Open Discourse in America.

I'm completely open to any and all ideas, other than ignoring this. We've been punched in the mouth one too many times. Just today, America said it is BEGGING Democrats to stand up to the Bush Administration. We are democrats. We can't let Harry Reid and Barbara Boxer do all the heavy lifting. We must be prepared to fight.

As our boy Sean Connery was wont to say: "If they put one of ours in the hospital, we put one of theirs in the MORGUE! That's the Chicago WAY!"

Thanks all for reading this far, and it would be nice to have some "recomendo mojo" to get some legs for this idea.

Originally posted to bigskiphazzy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:38 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I'm so outraged (none)
    I'm only 21. I'm so pissed. I'm misguided. I'm intellegent. It's a deadly mix.
    "I admit - well I'm saying that the we have to take the bait!" Take the bait, get reeled in to the boat, then kick their ass! Sorry, but damn. I lose my head when I see sites like that.
    Uhg! Violence is so bad. But I wanna kick some ass!
    Reccomended. Sorry I'm the first post.
    •  People, before we all (3.33)
      take this too seriously, this website attacks JAY LENO. His photo is right there in the Entertainment section. I have a hard time believing that the American people think Jay Leno is a hazard to their health, morals or safety.  I wouldn't even bother drawing attention to these guys by responding to them.  Just my opinion.

      We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

      by Mary Julia on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:50:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  the problem is... (4.00)
        they don't care if their list is discredited by us. This is about making connections, real or not, in the minds of Americans. Again, you think Limbaugh and Savage and the gang aren't going to have a "bookmark" to that search engine? These things grow from the fringes in, at least that's my opinion.

        If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

        by bigskiphazzy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:10:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It lists grievances against (none)
          the 'LIST'... first one, at the very top: Anti- Israel.

          This web does not represent all people on the right. However, it attracts folks with fascist leanings and gives them ammunition to slander, smear.

          Smacks of Rovian politics. It will energize the fringe of the Right... beyond that most reasonable people will not be persuaded that Bill Moyers is a 'danger' to our country. David Horowitz is sick alright, the LIST includes Rachel Corrie, who is DEAD for goodness sake. Killed by an Israeli bulldozer for attempting to stop the destruction of a Palestinian's home.

          Horowitz? Neocon.

          "David Horowitz -- the right-wing pundit who has recently sought to defend himself against charges of racism by baselessly branding one of his critics, radio host Al Franken, a "racist" -- paid nearly $300,000 to Rotterman & Associates, a Republican media consulting firm that helped run the racially divisive campaigns of former Senator Jesse Helms (R-NC), a review of the tax filings of Horowitz's Center for the Study of Popular Culture shows."

          An unexamined life is not worth living - Socrates

          by crone on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:49:38 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I agree... (none)
          That's why I advocate a "battle mentality" in my diary today.
      •  This kind of drivel (3.00)
        ... has been around since time began.  When I was growing up, all the Republicans I knew had John Birch literature on their livingroom coffee tables.  

        Before that, there was the Klan.  

        Susan in Port Angeles (my cat)

        by SusanHu on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:27:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, but they never owned the corporate press.n/t (none)

          so i said,"Washington's groovy(laughs). That's what i said. And it is... for Romans"

          by k9disc on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:40:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  three words (none)
            william. randolph. hearst.
            •  All the major press was (none)
              corporate-owned and highly conservative... has been, always will be

              Susan in Port Angeles (my cat)

              by SusanHu on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:54:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  don't forget jingoistic (none)
                the same goes for other countries as well. war sells, as long as it's "over there." louise young's book japan's total empire: manchuria and the culture of wartime imperialism describes an almost spooky similarity in japan's corporate press' enthusiastic jingoism during japan's colonisation of the puppet state of manchukuo in the 30's. our mistake was in ever trusting the press to be objective and impartial in the first place. the curent tsunami of skepticism is long overdue
              •  Not at this level of concentration (none)
                Back in the day, some unnamed news-wrag published the pentagon papers, and another one [with vast help from a source] brought down a president.  Conservative or liberal is irrelevant - it's whatever it takes to sell papers.
            •  There were thousands and thousands (4.00)
              of 'media' entities, and they weren't all corporate owned either.

              There were thousands of media offerings representing thousands of interests: local interests, regional interests, state interests. There was not a corporate media cartel of 6 global entities servicing a couple hundred major clients.

              The mediascape was so much more diverse back in the day, and look what they accomplished: the Spanish American War, the Red Scare, World War I. This with thousands of voices, and many thousands more interests to satisfy.

              There simply is no comparison to today's corporate media in geographic reach, power, or intensity.

              so i said,"Washington's groovy(laughs). That's what i said. And it is... for Romans"

              by k9disc on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 01:06:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're right about that. But (none)
                the blogs are the PEOPLE. We have POWER. As more than a few Kossacks have suggested, stop calling them THE Media, MSM... there's nothing mainstream about them... that gives them legitimacy they DON'T have... the blogs are streaming, mainly... call them CORPORATE Media... tie them to the Corporate world, the conglomerates that own them, that giveth and taketh away their jobs if they toe the PARTY line... the party of Big Business. Starve 'em.

                turn off those blokes who regurgitate the WH Press Releases... cancel your cable. For a while anyway... they only respond to DOLLARS... quit feeding the beast... Bring your dollars to dKos and Juan Cole and others... you know who they are.

                Horowitz is only PART of the problem. Democracy cannot live without a free press and a responsible citizenry. We must create a free press since we don't have one. Turn your backs on the State Propaganda machine. Batting your head against that wall will only make your forehead bloody. They are already afraid of dKos, say its readership is bigger than the Times. Hey, we're powerful. Didn't you know?

                An unexamined life is not worth living - Socrates

                by crone on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:03:49 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  what's your point? (none)
          and, we had full equal rights for blacks almost 200 years after france had
      •  All the more reason (4.00)
        We need a site that compiles a list of "Insane republican quotes" to beat them over the head with.  That would be worthy of an entry.  

        "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetuate it." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

        by sgilman on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:34:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly.. (none)
        Don't think about an elephant.

        I can't wait until the Rapture! -- FREE STUFF! --EVERYWHERE!

        by God loves goats on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 11:51:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Honestly, have you looked at Discover the Network? (3.00)
        Its grade school cut-and-paste bad.  

        I actually (lamely?) hoped to learn about a few unheralded players on the Left by looking into it myself. (Potential job resources I figured.) Tip to Wonkette for sending me there with great sarcasm.

        But lo-and-behold, its complete crap. And I mean Turkey-five-finger, hand-tracing with a crayon on Thanksgiving in first grade, bad. Half the people aren't even progressives like Farakhan. Some are dead, like Rachael Corrie. Does she  move dark forces from beyond the grave? OOOOHHHHH......Then, there are the Jay Leno types as the author above noted.

        If these are the best master-plans the Neocons can come up with, no wonder Iraq is such a fiasco. Horowitz should be ashamed of himself based on quality alone.

        This project gets a big fat F. I'm sure we could do a lot better with 5 drunk Kossacks at 3:00 am on a random Tuesday.

        The Book of Revelations is not a foreign policy manual.

        by Dont Just Stand There on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 12:00:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The point is... (4.00)
          Months from now this will be considered "truth" by myriad people.  The references to these people as "security" risks, and the goofy map that springs up linking these people to hundreds of organizations that they probably don't even know exist, is incendiary.  The nuts who read that stuff are unstable.  The site may be artistically and technically laughable, but the distorted message can take hold, and ultimately hurt a lot of innocent people.
          •  So we make a Rightwing One (4.00)
            Fight fire with fire. But make it good.

            No, not links of Richard Perle to Dr. Strangelove. (But that might be funny. And possibly true now that I think about it?)

            But a "Follow The Network:" Connect the conservative dots. But unlike this one, it could be authentic. Links from AIE, to WSJ, to the DPB, to S. Libby, to Wolfie, to Cheney and Haliburton, to Johnny's left leg and Hernando's right arm which just got blown off in Iraq. NOW there is a connection!  

            The Book of Revelations is not a foreign policy manual.

            by Dont Just Stand There on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 12:27:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Now you're talkin' .... N/T (none)
              •  Seriously (none)
                It could be our Kossack Project of the Month.

                We all throw out names of institutions, individuals, NGO's, corporate lobbyists, religious nutcases, faux reporters, and start building a connect the dots to Iraq, to social security 'reform', to the culture wackos, to the gay porn White House.

                Hell, I know a few players on the Right that I'm sure no one has ever heard of, but they play their part. But we'd have to get someone to build the web-site?

                Me no do HTML.

                The Book of Revelations is not a foreign policy manual.

                by Dont Just Stand There on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 12:44:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Right track (4.00)
              If you do this, remember what it is about the Horowitz site that makes the real impression:

              Think about what the Horowitz site just did when you looked at it.  It PISSED you off!  Why?  Because it made direct connects between well-known 'lefties' and reviled terrorists.

              The reviled terrorists is the key.  Who cares if the site looks like shit?  Who cares if Bush stammers and misprounounces words---it's the emotional connection/impression that matters.  That's what people are going to remember.

              Link the repugs to images of the Iraq War dead, dying, and maimed.  Hang it around their necks like the fucking albatros it is.  Link them to images of fascism and the klan and religious zealots.  They made their own bed, we all need to make sure they sleep in it.  Don't try to get too cerebral about it, but of course facts can help if they're directly related and not too complicated.  A picture's worth a thousand words!  :)

              </my 2 cents>

              --Bush lied, 1000 died

              by indyjones48 on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 03:44:12 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why stop with war dead? (none)
                Remember, these are the people who funded Osama when he was fighting Russia; who funded Saddam when he was fighting Iran; who gave money to the Taliban just months before 9/11.  And of course, there are the connections to Saudi Arabia, a filthy woman-hating dictatorship and one of the world's primary supporters of terror.

                Links between Osama and Michael Moore are mere rhetoric-- links between the right and terror groups are real and documented!

            •  OK. registered: (4.00)
              If anyone knows how to get in touch with SusanG or NYbri or any of the propagannon team, please let me know.

              Mapping out an entire FOLLOW THE MONEY and FOLLOW THE THINKTANKS and FOLLOW THE 527 ORGS and all 2- and 3-degree separation orgs that tie to the GOP and BushCo seems like a valid and important distributed research project.

              I thought Expose the Network had a better sound than Follow the Network. The former communicates flushing it up into daylight; the latter suggests just trailing the other group and watching their moves.

              you can email me by clicking my user name.

              now i'm off to bed :)

              •  excellent (none)
                I can't wait to see how this develops and how I can help.

                "Stein figures that the core leaders of the Big 80 groups he studied are about 2,000 people who make between $75,000 and $200,000 and have all been trained in the Leadership Institute."

                It would be great to know the history of these 2000 people, and how they were funded.

                "Lookin' Forward to the coming progressive giant that is awakening to counter the Right."

                by lookinforward on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 06:58:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                • > social networking + friendster (none)
                  A post way below suggested doing this, or part of this, in the friendster social networking model.

                  I say "YES", plus:

                  Collaborative filtering -- and going all the way with something as beautiful as this:


                  Visual mapping of 1st-2nd-3rd degrees of separation, fully interactive.

                  Just enter a band name in the Search box at top of page.

                  Now click "band" to search.

                  Then behold.

                  THIS is what we need, nothing less.

                  I've now regsitered the name .com/.net/.org

              •  my e-mail is under my name... (none)

                we are working hard on this very idea...stay tuned...

                "Off we go into the Wild New Yonder"

                by NYBri on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 11:22:12 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Disinfopedia as well... (none)
              has information like this, if I recall correctly.
            •  It's called the Disinfopedia (none)
              And it's here.

              It's not a hit list, or a black list, instead it's

              a collaborative project to produce a directory of public relations firms, think tanks, industry-funded organizations and industry-friendly experts that work to influence public opinion and public policy on behalf of corporations, governments and special interests. Sponsored by the Center for Media and Democracy (, SourceWatch was started in February 2003 and contributors are now working on 6456 articles.

              If you're going to create a "blacklist" of the right then here would be a good place to start.  But I frankly find it a waste of time.

              I remember "enemy lists" back in elementary school. I thought them stupid then, and find this one stupid now. The black list that should concern you is the one that's never published. The one in the hands of the secret police (which we don't have, yet) that can change at the whim of a few individuals is the list that is a danger. This is just blow-hard posturing by juveniles.

              Plane Crazy

              "It is hard to fight anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul." Heracleitus, 500 BCE

              by PlaneCrazy on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 06:37:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Staying current (none)
                The name has changed from the Disinfopedia to SourceWatch. Staying with the new name will help out the google ratings as I have noticed they have slipped after the name change. Peace.

                "the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad... for the multitude of thine inequity, and the Great Hatred" - violent femmes

                by Tirge Caps on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 01:38:03 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Don't forget . . . (none)
        •  They don't care (4.00)
          Its grade school cut-and-paste bad.

          Ever see a copy of Red Channels?
          It looked like crap. It's content was crap.

          It ruined careers and silenced voices for a decade.

        •  That's what you think (none)
          and that's what I think but that's not what they think anyone willing to base their beliefs on Ann Coulter's high-school gossip-style vindictive-she-looked-at-my-boyfriend-and-now-I'm-gonna-destroy-her quips will soak this up like a root vegetable in sewage soup

          "the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad... for the multitude of thine inequity, and the Great Hatred" - violent femmes

          by Tirge Caps on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 01:33:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Okay, sure. (none)
        I wouldn't even bother drawing attention to these guys by responding to them.  I have a hard time believing that the American people think a guy who has three purple hearts is not a true patriot.
             - John Kerry, Summer 2004
        •  You missed the election results obviously (none)
          Kerry lost. The war-dodger won. Just thought I'd up-date. :-)

          The Book of Revelations is not a foreign policy manual.

          by Dont Just Stand There on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 01:53:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  See, that's what I hate about the internet (none)
            I can't tell whether you're sarcastic or not, which means I'm not sure whether you caught mine or not, and so on.
            •  just so you know - (none)
              yours wasn't immediately obvious to me, either - I know it seems lame to have to label it "sarcasm" in b&w, but.....

              As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

              by sidnora on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 06:45:40 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  No problem (none)
              Sorry if I missed your sarcasm: my bad

              But I continue to be amazed at the damage caused by the Swift Boat Veterans. Millions thought this was a 'real group' and not a GOPUSA-Talon News- Rove invention.

              I'm not sure if you ever saw when Faux News did a special on them?  They were all set up on a chess board in uniform. To give them gravitas and power. The lights were down low and the camera closed in on them. It was real 'Triumph of the Will' kind of stuff. And of course, it was all lies no more real than Jeff Gannon.

              The Book of Revelations is not a foreign policy manual.

              by Dont Just Stand There on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 10:23:23 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •   Rachel Corrie ? She's already dead. Outrageous (4.00)
        You who think that "ohh Jay Leno is here, settle down silly liberals!" are enablers by losing perspective.

        If Horowitz didn't have a "name recognition", sure, I'd relegate this to extremist right-wing lunatic fringe.

        But that is not the case.

        I think this diary is very important -- and none of this should be taken lightly at all.

        It absolutely is a BLACKLIST.

        I had the good fortune to be taught for two years in film school by one of the Hollywood Ten, Edward Dmytryk -- an outstanding film editor who rose to Director of films like The Caine Mutiny.

        He had the best years of his life shuttered by this insidiously UNAMERICAN witch hunt.

        Don't you DARE take this lightly with some chuckle about Jay Leno. I suggest you wake up.

        •  Rachel Corrie (4.00)
          I hope her parents don't see this.  Maybe they've become immured to the pain of seeing their child being villified for trying to stop a Palestinian home from being bulldozed.

          But if it was me, and my child dying for something they believed in, I think I would feel every cut, every smear.

          I hope there are people supporting them through these despicable, desperate times.

      •  Laughable. (none)
        Unless someone actually takes it seriously and thinks "gee, I guess they're right.  Zacarias Moussaoui and Danny Glover really do belong on the same list!  And I always knew Khomeini and Zarqawi were really left-wing liberals instead of ultraconservative Muslims!"

        But seriously, folks...John Walker Lindh and Mohammed Atta on the same page as Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Robert Byrd?!?!?!  I almost died laughing thinking that someone could possibly be stupid enough to put up a page like this...

        Piss off Frank Luntz: don't use Republican issue frames like "Social Security crisis."

        by DC Pol Sci on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:30:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  DC Pol Sci --> return to school ASAP (none)
          Once again you look at this -- and probably everything political in nature -- thr the perpetual leftie achillees heal of "facts" and "evidence" and "accuracy" -- while missing the entire boat:

          Neuro-emotional associations

          I'm not even going to get into it. Go to Rockridge Institute Forums, go to, go to Jeffrey Feldman's Frameshop --

          do any of those -- vs blathering here with the typical "people, people! Don't be so ridiculous! Do you think people literally associate... blah blah blah" banter of the ACTUAL liberal elite (afterall there IS one -- and usually they are the least broadly educated in any given subject area).

          QUESTION 1: *Did people in Iowa and New Hampshire REALLY think Howard Dean was helping Osama Bin Laden? Come on people!! People people!  Do you think they ACTUALLY believed that?

          NO. of course they didn't, consciously.

          *QUESTION 2:  Did that ad have an emotional eimpact that hurt Dean?

          wtf do you think?

  •  thanks (4.00)
    appreciate the sentiment. Hopefully we'll get a fire lit under collective asses before its too late.

    If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

    by bigskiphazzy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:43:45 PM PST

    •  Here is a battle in the war (none)
      Exposing PowerLine for the extremists they are.  See my diary and associated action alert.

      Wisdom too often never comes, and so one ought not to reject it merely because it comes late. --Mr. Justice Frankfurter.

      by NewDem on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 10:42:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Civil War II (4.00)
        The Radical Right is laying the groundwork for a pogrom against dissent towards their program to destroy America by claiming that the terrorists and the Democrats are in bed together.  The catalyzing event will be the next terrorist attack against our country.  At that point the wingnuts will tell America that they have been claiming for months that the "Left" is in an "alliance" with Islamic terror and that stronger tactics are needed to destroy "the enemy within."  Some Democrats will actually back these calls (think DLC types) in a futile attempt to save their own skins.

        It is better to die than to live as a slave.  That is the hallmark of any free people.  Once the violence starts, we must fight these people to the death, because life in their iron grip is not worth living, not for us and certainly not for our children.  

        They have crossed the Rubicon with their claims of a Leftist-Islamic alliance.  They offer not even the slightest argument in favor of this insanity.  Is there anecdotal evidence of tie-dyed burka-clad hippie-chicks in People's Park in Berkeley?  A sudden decline in the consumption of pork products in Vermont?  Is the New York Review of Books now being published in an Arabic/English bilingual edition?  

        We must fight to preserve our great nation.  So far the struggle is non-violent.  We must continue to use the power or persuasion and debate.  If we want it to stay non-violent though, we must prepare for the very worst.   The wingnuts are serious about their hate; it's really all they have at the end of the day.

        •  I have to say you are correct (none)
          The Radical Right is laying the groundwork for a pogrom against dissent towards their program to destroy America by claiming that the terrorists and the Democrats are in bed together.  The catalyzing event will be the next terrorist attack against our country.
           (Much as the use of 9/11 and knowing it would happen and letting it)

            Some Democrats will actually back these calls (think DLC types) in a futile attempt to save their own skins.

            Exactly !

          It is better to die than to live as a slave.  That is the hallmark of any free people.
          (((BRAVO !)))

          We must fight to preserve our great nation.  So far the struggle is non-violent.  We must continue to use the power or persuasion and debate.  If we want it to stay non-violent though, we must prepare for the very worst.   The wingnuts are serious about their hate; it's really all they have at the end of the day.

          (Could not agree more with your insight.)

    •  Excellent point (none)
      As the second diarist mentioned in the list, I'm glad that this topic has found some recommendations. Sometimes I think it's a matter of timing here, with posts getting lost in heavy traffic races to the bottom of the "recent diaries" list.

      But sometimes I think it's a matter of timing of events. This past weekend, I saw a House committee on CSPAN grilling intelligence officials. I heard a couple of Republicans (sorry, I was cleaning the kitchen and listening, so I don't recall the names) really digging on this "problem" of what they called radicalization of Americans -- that is Americans joining forces with al-Qaeda terrorists. Yeah, right. As if anyone who opposes Bush suddenly wants to start bombing Americans. But that seems to be the new focus.

      And it fits very neatly with the new powers granted by the Patriot Act, Patriot Act II and the recent intelligence bills.

      The CIA head agreed that radicalization was a primary concern.

      And today's headlines about tax records being demanded of environmentalists who dared criticize Bush's "Ban Clear Skies" plan also seem to go along with this theme.

      And ... well, just about everything that BushCo has done since 9/11.

      FRAME:  After the 9/11 attack perpetrated by foreign nationals who were in the country illegally, the security apparatus gets turned on American citizens.

      PROPOSAL: Create a website that features photos and bios of the major actors in this fascist movement. Draw connections with notorious fascists of the past. Show common uses of rhetoric. Show common deeds. An "America's Most Wanted" site.

      Any takers?

  •  tip jar (3.98)
    Lame, I know, but WTF?

    If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

    by bigskiphazzy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:44:18 PM PST

    •  Suggestion (4.00)
      It might be very effective to contact all the 'victims' to let them know what they're being associated with, I'm sure many pictured on that web page don't have a clue they're on there.

      What an excellent day for an Exorcism.... Social Security THERE IS NO CRISIS!

      by DianeL on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 01:24:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  that should be step one of an organization. (none)
        Lots of these people have the $$$ to defend themselves in court.  We should find a way to energize the people on this list to form a foundation.

        Since the site believes we are that organized, it's time to GET this organized.  Whoever they put on this site (not the terrorists, of course) should be recruited to oppose it.  

        Fascism: it's the new black.

        by marjo on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:47:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm disappointed (4.00)
    My name and picture aren't on the Discover the Network website. Must try harder.

    In politics, sometimes the jackasses are on your side.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:53:50 PM PST

  •  You're right (none)
    We are at war. And when you go to war, you don't educate your enemy. You watch them, you understand them so that you can outwit them. But you do not, by any means, make them more savvy or give them more appeal.

    Watch them very closely, know everything about them and how they fund themselves. But say not a word - not to them, not ever.

    •  not sure I get your point (none)
      Are you saying that we don't call this shit out for fear of drawing attention to our "strategy"? If so, let me ask you something: In the 40s when careers were being ruined and lives were being ruined, when was the time to stand up and defend people and to defend the right for honest dissent and honest discourse in this country? I'm at a loss, if this is still the time for subtlety.

      If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

      by bigskiphazzy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:14:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There is no strategy (none)
        You don't have leadership providing you with a strong voice, let alone a strategy. Your effort to expose these people now, without that leadership and strategy at your back, will backfire. You will unwittingly give those enemies of ours encouragement. And one or two of them will be quick enough on the uptake to tweak their message a bit, make it a bit more tasteful to fence-sitters with their fingers in the wind.

        Those people don't follow ideas, they follow power.  

        You get out there and flail around, they'll know you're banging away at something you haven't figured out how to beat yet and they'll turn on us - until some cataclysmic event forces them to part with the side they chose. That's all your enemies, and mine, need right now.

        So, now's the time to watch every move your enemies make. Know their rank and their instincts as well as you know your own. We will not fail to hold this nation in good stead. Liberalism has seen this country through some very dark periods and we will continue to do so. Don't be afraid and never give your enemies the benefit of seeing you angry, it reveals too much about you.

        When the time comes, and I feel sure it will,  we will win this war. Given that Time magazine's favorite blog this year is a blog that labeled former President Carter a traitor to the country, a revolutionary clash between the forces of enlightenment and ignorance in America can't be far behind. Cool your heels and know thy enemy.

        •  Kimberly... (4.00)
          ...the time as come. The New York GOP chair called our party the party of terrorists and terrorist abettors. This guy is not some fringe key monkey, working deep within a spider hole in the Siskiou mountains. This is mainstream. Dick Cheney and Ann Coulter are sharing a stage. How much longer do we wait?

          If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

          by bigskiphazzy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:13:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No argument here (none)
            But I think you and I are imagining two different kinds of "war".

            If, for instance, you think this destined to be a war of political and social rhetoric, then you could engage it now, without functional leadership or a coherent strategy. If,however, you believe (as I do) that we're headed for a bona fide revolution - of the bloodier variety, unfortunately - then it would be terribly ill-advised to engage, without benefit of leadership or strategy.

            Maybe that's why we see the thing differently. Who knows?

            But I'm sticking to my guns on this one (no pun intended). I think this situation is destined for a violent outcome and the less they see of me and mine in action, the better. I don't need people on my side unknowingly volunteering to be the canary in our mine shaft, so those bastards know exactly how much political poison it'll take to bring us all down.

            •  this situation destined for a violent outcome (4.00)
              Kimberly, I agree with this comment -- but could you please clarify what you mean by "this situation"? Are you referring specifically to Discoverthenetwork -- and talks here of mapping out a similar network for left extremists and their 1- 2- 3- and 4- degrees of separation clandestine orgs tied to BushCo?

              Or are you talking more in general about the extremist hate speech and "targeting" coming from the right -- despite their now controlling all 3 branches of US govt -- and aruably the 4th estate as well?

              One thing is for sure. A "strategy" will NOT be coming from the Democratic Party. Howard maybe, but not the Pelosi apparatus -- they are easily 5 years behind in recognizing the entire conceptual model of lakoff and of framing. They think of it as magic words. They are, however, quite clueless about the deeper efforst needed to get into sync with our values, engage the moderates, and express why and how our values are the true American values, and how we are seeking the same things. howard gets this, and his 50-state strategy proves it.

              But this is nothing new. He was saying is as far back as in March 2003 -- and though he used politically loaded words which were politically capitalized on by John Edwards in 2004, Dean was absolutely correct about taking our case dircetly to the people in the South. I'm from New Oreans and I knew EXACTLY what Dean meant... and so did Edwards. But Edwards was competing so he used that debacle to express mock outrage.

              Fact is Dean's insistance on engaging people as people -- and resisting the deep partisan war -- is the only true hope that would prevent this coming "Civil War II". And I am saying boldly that I live in San Fransicso, in Pelosi's congressional district, and she doesn;t know her ass from a hole in the ground. She has been a pathetic "leader" and thus I reiterate:

              An overarching strategy may in fact be developed by our Dinosaurs in power, but that won;t make it a good strategy. In fact I can guarantee that until they are shaken literally by the shoulders and told to WAKE UP, anything they offer will be a recipe for disaster -- like insisting Kerry would win the war on "perception" as the better and more able Commander in Chief at the time of fear of terrorism. A ton of people knew in 2002 that it would be an unmitigated disaster -- and despite alll the blah blah stats about how many votes he got, he only got that many because the grassroots had to TRIPLE their efforts, each time he fumbled, picking up and carrying his water for him uphill yet again. he retardedly spilt so much water stumbling over the advantages given to him by Richard Clarke, Bob Woodward, the 9/11 Commission and on and on that were it not for the grassroots, thrice as smart as he in terms of strategy, he;d have lost by a huge margin.

              He was the utterly wrong candidate -- hopefullyh the last vestage of the DLC-controlled Dem party.

              So, in conclusion, as to "waiting for a strategy", I think you will be waiting (a) a long time and (b) for a strategy which will be deeply flawed. And that is why there are pockets of grassroots leaders who are forming our own Strategy Development Group or thinktank.

              While you make an excellent point admonishing against tipping our own hand, while we observe all that the radical right are doing, we need to move much more swiftly... not WAIT for the Pelosi brigade to get their shit together. They won't.

              We need to build off the incredible success of SusanG and NYbri's distributed-research methodologies... Because we have already shown, Ok Mainstream media, we're fed up, and since you don;t know how to do your job, or you are too scared to do what you know to be the CORRECT job, then get out of the way because we'll start doing the job for you. And we have. And it's having an impact.

              And that's the way we're going to win this war. Organizing smartly. Peer-to-peer, using smart networks -- and totally bypassing the old HUBS of power, where everything gets bottlenecked and constipated.

     > a name registered as an offset to ... we'll see if anyone is ready to take on the project.


            •  I'm with you (none)
              One has to say, in the end where does this lead? They are not looking to negotiate anything or compromise. It's their way or else and I don't think many people realize that. The extreme right is locked and loaded, the middle is apathetic and the left is still trying to get it's act together. The right is trying to bait people into confrontation. Remember Bowling for Columbine?
            •  Sunshine is the best disinfectant. (4.00)
              If our diarist is correct, the more people know about this, and the more we fight them with both publicity and ridicule, the better. Allowing ourselves to be intimidated, and not doing more of this was one of the mistakes we made during the McCarthy era.

              And if, God forbid, we really are heading for armed confrontation (and the thought has crossed my mind before this), I don't think it will have made a damned bit of difference that we tried. This isn't military strategy.

              As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

              by sidnora on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 07:06:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  so in fact (none)
              You're kicking it up a notch, in cooking parlance. (or several notches). Fair enough.

              I happen to see this as a real opportunity, however, to educate a large portion of passionate people about just what is at stake today. Here and now. The fact that all the different slanders that I described -- and many, many more -- occurred during the same time frame, I think this is a HUGE opportunity. I envision a rally of sorts where several of the major "constituencies" that were slandered on the site, are made aware and stand together to say: Enough is enough! think about how each of these "icons" can be pitched to the various folks they represent:
              Howard Dean -- DFA
              Bruce Springsteen -- the HUGE and devoted community of springsteen followers (of which I'm one)
              Barack Obama -- The black community. (WTF is HE doing on this list?)
              Party stalwarts.
              Bill Moyers -- the media. (Who among the corporate media wouldn't be frightened to be considered a terrorist for doing their job? Oh, they would cover this event!)
              the fact that teachers and university professors are targeted. ... This is an opportunity to link ALL this GOP right-wingers -- who are definitely on this path anyway -- to this website. And I really beleive we win the war of words. It would be a huge media event, if done well.
              --It may be too late for this strategey, which is what you seem to be saying, but I just can't go there yet. I've got two kids under 5. If we're at "blood" already, well, it's British Columbia here we come?

              If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

              by bigskiphazzy on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:41:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  What's funny about these folks (4.00)
    They set up a nifty website and "lefty" search engine, use a flash media plug in to link a bunch of different names together, and bingo, Ted Kennedy is connected to's like six degrees of Kevin Bacon for neo fascist, Orwellian hipsters.

    We should do to these folks the same thing Mel Brooks did to the Nazi's in The Producers...point out how ridiculous they are by mocking the living hell out of 'em and laughing at the damage we do "David Horowitz was is a fantastic painter...he could paint an entire apartment in one day; TWO COATS!!!"

    •  Their ignorance and hate marginalize themselves (4.00)
      If Ted Kennedy is such an anti-American commie pinko terrorist, maybe daddy Bush shouldn't have given him a lifetime political achievement award last year, huh.

      These people marginalize themselves. People are waking up to the bullshit, and the Horowitz's will join the rest of them in obscure, forgotten lore.

      •  Yeah, we have bigger fish to fry (none)
        I'm all against hate speech and depersonalizing people, but c'mon folks, who is going to take this site seriously? Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Ted Kennedy considered to be in league together?

        Sure, the freepers might get a laugh out of it, but the vast majority of Americans will write this off as looney toons. Even half of the freepers know it for what it really is. How many of you here would in all seriousness believe al-Zarqawi and Tom DeLay are in cahoots if you saw it on a web site?

        Save your energy for standing up against the big boys, the ones considered MSM.

    •  nothing is more powerful (none)
      than satiric humor.

      Fascism: it's the new black.

      by marjo on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:59:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm fine with ridicule (none)
    hell, sometimes that's the most effective response. What I'm NOT fine with is having a few yuks about it and then moving back to Guckert's 8 inches, cut.

    If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

    by bigskiphazzy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:16:30 PM PST

  •  This is the sickest thing I have ever seen, (4.00)
    and I have been around for quite a while. You hear this shit day after day on right wing talk radio. They are constantly equating those of us who have disenting opinions with the enemy. "A time of war is not time for dissent", that is what they say day after day, "the left wants the terrorists to win". I don't mind Limbaugh calling the left free spending liberals, and remarks like that. That is not offensive. This new hate talk is. Not only is it offensive, it is very dangerous. Dangerous because many of the listeners of right wing talk radio really need to get a life. I think some of these people who listen day after day, hour after hour, and hold on the telephone for God knows how long just to get on the air are quite disturbed. These hate mongers are only feeding the demons within these people. Wasn't McVey egged on by hate radio to blow up the building in OK. God knows what will come next. Remember these are the people who own assualt weapons. Keeping them at the ready for the day they will be needed. We are being made the target, that is a very frightening thought. They continue to wrap themselves in the first amendment, "it is their freedom of speech". What about our right to dissent, is that not our first amendment right too? No, it only applies to them. No wonder the MSM is afraid to speak the truth, if they do, they will have a heavy price to pay.
    •  Remember Rwanda (4.00)
      Radiostations served the Hutus' purpose of inflaming the Hutu majority against the Tutsis and other Hutus who were either moderates or were clearly not willing to participate in the scapegoating of the Tutsis.  When the starting gun went off and the genocide began, these same radio stations started giving out the names and addresses of Tutsis and Hutus who were "enemies of the nation".  It was a very effective means of acheiving their genocidal ends.

      The internet is the American version of the Rwandan radiostations.

      Look folks, I know a number of hate-mongering, right-wing fanatics.  They aren't to be dismissed.  They're a bonfire waiting for a match to happen.

      Liberals should give more serious consideration to arming themselves.  

      King George... Bush the Butcher.

      by rangemaster on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 10:44:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  this is no exaggeration (4.00)
        My family is Republican, and despite their guys controlling all 3 branches of govt, and their guy winning, you'd think they'd be happy. But they're NOT.

        The right is so filled with hatred and on hair-triggers that I really feel if they keep escalating, with their in your face "and you're NEXT to go!" there is going to be violence erupting.. don't know when or where.

        But the fact that they are stark raving rabid -- despite WINNING and CONTROLLING -- well things are going too far and something is going to snap.

        We have no idea yet what this firing on Fort Sumpter will be.

    •  Thomas Frank on this parallel (none)
      From What's the Matter with Kansas p. 191:

      In the cosmology of bigotry Jews are not just another despised minority. The stereotype with which they are always smeared is a very particular one: they are held to be affluent, alien, cosmopolitan, liberal, and above all, intellectual.

      Anti-intellectualism is one of the grand unifying themes of the backlash, the mutant strain of class war that underpins so many of Kansas's otherwise random-seeming grievances. Contemporary conservatism holds as a key article of faither that it is fruitless to scrutinize the business pages for clues about the way the world works. We do not labor under the yoke of some abstraction like market forces, or even flesh-and-blood figures like executives or owners. No, it is intellectuals who call the shots, people with graduate degrees and careers in government, acadamia, law, and the professions.

      In other words, this is not just a similar demonization, it is the same demonization.

      . . . solutions emerge from [our] judicious study of discernible reality.

      by realitybased on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 10:05:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Liberals are the new "jews" (4.00)
    If conservatives can make it stick, that is. And they are trying so hard ... what is strange is how all of them can think the same narrow code so vehemently, like it is manna from Heaven.

    When you read about the German public of WWII and realize that the denunciation of jews had the same sort of unified appeal - yeah, it is scary. But America does not realize it is a liberal nation anymore, and is fading into that authority-loving protofascist wave that swept Europe almost a hundred years ago.

    But there is something else going on. As if capitalism is making life so hard that many don't care if it all blows up. Rome was a capitalist republic, and that political nightmare eventually ended in the Dark Ages.

    But I don't think people really believe it yet, though many are wary and sounding the alarm.

    •  dehumanization (4.00)
      What almost physically sickens me whenever I see Ann Coulter, or read about Michael Savage, is that whether they know it or not (and I really have no idea), their rhetoric opens the door to unbearable horrors. Dehumanizing your opponents is the first step to jailing them, beating them, or ultimately deciding that the world would be better off without all of them.

      They're no longer seen as parents, children, individuals, people who love and are loved. They're monsters. Traitors. Liars. Murderers. Immoral, wicked things. Bugs to be exterminated.

      So, yes, on one level we're fighting for our survival. There's no compromise with the rabid core of the right wing hate machine.

      On another, though, we're fighting for our ideals, which is a much more uplifting (and immediate, in the sense that nobody is yet knocking on our doors or herding us onto trains) kind of struggle. That means, in part, not dehumanizing our opponents. Hating them is ultimately counterproductive.

      The phrase Martin Luther King used was "agape".  He described it as

      "...something of the understanding, creative, redemptive goodwill for all men. It is a love  that seeks nothing in return. It is an overflowing love; it's what theologians would     call the love of God working in the lives of men. And when you rise to love on this level, you begin to love men, not because they are likeable, but because God loves them. You look at every man, and you love him because you know God loves him. And he might be the worst person you've ever seen."

      I'm not religious, in this sense, but I certainly can perceive the worth of this concept. By remembering the humanity of even the most evil-seeming on the other side, I think we consciously reaffirm our own.

      •  One voice (4.00)
        If we are waiting to be "ghetto-ized" then the fight is already over and we are the losers.

        We are already marginalized. We are vilified. The next step is criminalized and that process began this week. It is a short hop over a deep chasm to save ourselves and we need to rally our forces.

        I was watching some horrible Pundit/"news" show that I normally would never watch (and don't remember whose show it was or what channel it was on) I was struck by the pundit asking a liberal guest who their leader was and she (the guest) kept saying that democrats don't have leaders they have idea's. Bullshit.

        First of all every organization/group/club has a leader. The Middle School Chess Club has a leader. Quilting Bee's have leaders.  Even the freakin Icee Cold Sno-Kone Shack in the Walgreen's parking lot has a leader.

        Our leader is Dean. He is the DNC chair. We need to rally and take this to him. Whenever any of these nuts ask who our leader is say it is Dean. He is our voice. That is why he was elected. We need to lobby him and other Democrats to strengthen our party the way the Republicans have strengthened theirs.

        I am not advocating "Dear Leader" pod people syndrome. But we need to speak with one voice so that we can be clearly understood. Dean has been doing a good job. We need to make sure Democrats in the public eye all get on the same page and lay this to rest. If all the Democrats get together and decide to end this (and by this I don't mean this page specifically, I mean this trend in general) then we can put a stop to the vilification of dissent and the slow murder of free speech.

        There are always two parties; the establishment and the movement. -Emerson

        by coconutjones on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:29:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  This analogy works (4.00)
      better than you think. Try sourcing some old Nazi propaganda and simply sub in the word "liberal" for "Jew" and see how much it sounds like right-wing talk radio.

      As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

      by sidnora on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 06:56:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is so frightening. (none)
    I agree this is a blacklist, pure and simple.  I recommended this diary cause i believe it is one of the most important.  Thanks for posting.  We have to fight back against this kind of thing.  A lot of those people in the pictures are heroes of mine, and to see them lined up with dictators and terrorists is sickening.  Wonder what would happen if we let some of them know that they are on such a list.
  •  One here could start (none)
    our own page similar in design but with the truth. Who funds this rabid right site?
  •  Thank the good lord (4.00)
    I am not the only one who is worried about this. I hate to say this but middle America are a bunch of sheep and anyone who doesn't think they will go the way of McCarthyism and take it a step further is kidding themselves. With all our Internets, it would be so easy to spread the word, and I see it happening. As a writer, it scares the hell out of me. They(average Joe American) will plod along, just as many other countries did when fascism took over. Before they know it, they will lose all their rights and then blame the liberals for not protecting them.

    Being a patriot means you have to do more than wave a flag!

    by melthewriter on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:09:31 PM PST

    •  True (none)
      But that vast pool of thoughtless bastards were always going to blame us, no matter what the hell happens in America. It's offensive until you remember human nature: We're always hardest on the people who can take it - we coddle losers and fools.

      Liberals just need to come to grips with the fact that there is a different standard for us. It sucks, but there it is. It's the price of being the strongest, or rather for reminding others of their weaknesses.

    •  Sign up to help fight back (none)
      TomTech, author of the Daily Kos "This Week in Fascism" is hitting the road.  He's going to need help.

      Go to this diary to sign up: The Non-Violent Anti-Fascistic Movement

      Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze.

      by mataliandy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:17:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  • is available (none)
    A whois on says the domain is available. Who wants to grab it and purge this toxin from the web?
    •  it's really available? (none)
      How can that be when they've got so much posted on it? Could we really just take it over? That'd be great--we could take off the Dems' photos and replace them with Bushco!
      •  Maybe not (none)
        It is listed as available using this whois service, but it's not available at
      •  WHOIS (none)
        Domain ID:D104169342-LROR
        Created On:30-Mar-2004 02:06:31 UTC
        Last Updated On:08-Feb-2005 20:06:07 UTC
        Expiration Date:30-Mar-2006 02:06:31 UTC
        Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR)
        Registrant ID:tuFSwl6vAmWDlQqW
        Registrant Name:Genesio Zenone
        Registrant Organization:The Center for the Study of Popular Culture
        Registrant Street2:c/o Tiger Technologies
        Registrant Street3:PO Box 21271, Dept W9845
        Registrant City:Oakland
        Registrant State/Province:CA
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        Admin ID:tuVPyzpSbvQjYMQN
        Admin Name:genesio zenone
        Admin Organization:genesio zenone
        Admin Street2:c/o Tiger Technologies
        Admin Street3:PO Box 21271, Dept W9845
        Admin City:Oakland
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        Admin Postal Code:94620-1271
        Admin Country:US
        Admin Phone:+1.5105273131
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        Tech ID:tubdNQdyxxelcToq
        Tech Name:Tiger Technologies
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        Tech Street3:PO Box 21271, Dept W9845
        Tech City:Oakland
        Tech State/Province:CA
        Tech Postal Code:94620-1271
        Tech Country:US
        Tech Phone:+1.5105273131
        Tech Phone Ext.:
        Tech FAX:+1.5105273131
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        Name Server:NS2.ATLANTIC.NET
        Name Server:NS1.ATLANTIC.NET
  •  My note to them (3.90)
    read as follows:

    I'm shocked and appalled not to find my name on your blacklist, you sad-sack fascist fucks.

    Where's your due diligence? I belong right in there along with Springsteen and Sarandon as someone who hates your fucking guts and is doing his best to screw over ass-sucking republicans every chance I get.

    C'mon. Add me, bitches.

    •  You may be on to something... (4.00)
      Ever read about what happened when the Nazis occupied Denmark?  Jews were ordered to wear a yellow Star of David.  Guess what?  EVERYBODY pinned a yellow Star of David to their clothes -- including the king.

      Maybe we need to inundate these assholes with requests to be put on their list.  That's one way to show them we're not intimidated by it.

      "...your grasp has exceded your reach/ And you put all your faith in a figure of speech..." -- Warren Zevon

      by Roddy McCorley on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:38:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I knew there was a reason that I made u a red rpxp (none)
      The red ones, they are the crazy me.

      Rock on RabidNation!

      so i said,"Washington's groovy(laughs). That's what i said. And it is... for Romans"

      by k9disc on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:46:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Reminds me of the time in the '80s (4.00)
      that a friend of mine, after readng about Cardinal O'Connors' warning that Catholics who advocated birth control, abortion, and homosexuality "risked excommunication", called the archdiocese of New York and asked how he would go about getting himself excommunicated.

      He was very respectful and serious, and he completely flabbergasted the aide to the archbishop to whom the request was ultimately funnelled. The aide said over and over "Do you know what you are asking?" and he kept responding: "Yes, I completely understand what I am asking. Please tell me what the procedure is."

      They never did tell him the procedure. And they never did fulfill his request.

    •  Great idea (4.00)
      I did the same, here's my letter:

      Dear sirs/madams,

      I'm respectively requesting that I be added to your list.   I'm against protecting the US because I believe starting wars on bogus intel is wrong.  I'm against protecting the US because I believe Bin Laden is more important then Saddam.  I'm against protecting the US because I believe replacing torture chambers with torture chambers is wrong.  I'm against protecting the US because I believe killing innocent civilians is wrong.

      So please add my name to your list ASAP; I can provide a photo if needed.

      Shawn Gilman

      "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetuate it." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by sgilman on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:49:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think this important (4.00)
    Yes, it's so pitiful it's almost funny, but's it's deadly serious.  How much more until they start rounding up liberals as enemies of the state?  I'm sure some people would applaud this.

    We should brainstorm ideas on how to fight it.  Steve Gilliard and Digby have both blogged about it.  SG has said "sue them."  I think this is one strategy.  Being called a "traitor" should be a libelous comment.  We shouldn't take it lying down.

    Does anyone have other ideas?

    I'm a member of a minority group: the reality-based community.

    by Unstable Isotope on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:25:58 PM PST

  •  Looks like a rip off (none)
    (is that all the right does?)  Horowitz copied his idea from his pals, the Kahanist psychopaths at www. masada2000. org.  (I won't assist them with a link Google might pick up.)  Scroll down the page to find "Lesson 21" on the left hand side.  I'm on their S.H.I.T. list, which I consider to be nothing less than a death threat.
    The right in Israel has been pulling this shit longer than here in the U.S.- we aren't too far behind what you'll see there if you look at Lesson 26.  Which, as far as I can tell, calls for nuking everyone, including yourself, in a self righteous snit.
    Please check these links.  Sorry to make it hard, but I'd rather spread Santorum.

    Might and Right are always fighting In our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning. Might can hardly keep from grinning. -Clarence D

    by Myrkury on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:26:58 PM PST

  •  Oooh man !........... (4.00)
    This bullshit is begging for a mirror site.....

    That juxtaposes GOP faces with those same Taliban and Al Qaeda ones...

    It would be far more accurate too.

    We are discreet sheep; we wait to see how the drove is going, and then go with the drove. -Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)

    by Troutfishing on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:28:38 PM PST

    •  There are plenty of pics of Bushes (none)
      with Taliban, Saudis, and assorted dictators. Wouldn't even need to Photoshop 'em. They're the real thing, just hanging out with their buddies.

      If I'd run Kerry's campaign, I'd have shown that photo of Shrub shaking hands with the Taliban a million times.

    •  what do you think of ExposeTheNetwork (none)
      I registered this for use on a counter-offensive site.

      If someone like SusanG or NYbri or any of the propagannon team were to take it on as a project, it might be a good name to counter them

    •  How about (none)
      A history of Fascism? From its roots to present day America.
    •  IMHO copying it perpetuates it (none)
      Now, I've abandoned a lot of my beliefs about bipartisanship etc., in favor of fighting republicans all-out as an opposition party.  But I don't think doing to them what they are doing to us will help anything.  We have to struggle to keep the discourse as honest but also as principled as we can possibly make it, to contrast ourselves with them and focus on what we stand for as opposed to what THEY say we stand for.


      Fascism: it's the new black.

      by marjo on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:35:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well (none)
        I would suggest taking a page form the Rove political handbook.  The strategy that seems to work so well for republicans is to have extremists out there shouting discrediting there opponents.  They have people out lying about policy, people squealing about this and that, and confusing people as to whats going on.  Bush and other Republican leaders can then go and be the "strong" figure, and use simple terms to make everybody "understand" there policies.  

        and the results of this are?

        They get the stupid people, and the 1% of the population(the ones who are actually benefitted by policies) to vote for them.

        Hari Rothstein

  •  We should fight fire with fire (none)
    Compare Dick Cheney to Kenneth Lay of Enron. Compare George Bush to Osama Bin Laden.

    They're zealots. Anti-America. They want to destroy the meaning of hard work. And so forth.

    They want to play the category game?

    We'll win.

  •  Scary (4.00)
    I think you could not possibly be more right here. There is a subculture of the Left that isn't merely misguided or merely lacking in virture. These people are evil, and I do not think it is incorrect to say this truth is theological. Whether or not a person believes there is a real Kingdom of Heaven, it should be a no-brainer to recognize that these people are working to establish a Kingdom of Hell under the pretenses of building a paradise and there cannot be anything more Satanic than that.

    This is in a comment thread to one blog essentially stating that there are is only "the satanic left (those which are evil), and the stupid left (those who follow the "satanic left" because they dont know any better).

    A large part of the thread boils down to the thought that since we're not moral absolutists, then we must be evil.

    Phil Bredesen for ME...oh wait I'll only be old enough to run for Congress. (1st Congressional District of Tennessee)

    by FleetAdmiralJ on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:36:09 PM PST

    •  Same old, same old ... (none) the view of the McCarthyists and their dittoheads, there are only fascist leftists and "useful idiots."
    •  Projection. (none)
      Once again, the right throws up a smoke screen and accuses the left of what it is itself doing.

      Working to establish a Kingdom of Hell under pretense of building a paradise? Sure, with GWB as the king, and theocratic busybodies in charge of making things hell for everyone.

      I even agree. That goal is kind of Satanic. In fact, within their frame of reference, there's no possible doubt about it: GWB is the Antichrist. Even the Pope thinks so.

      Massacre is not a family value.

      by Canadian Reader on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 07:42:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ah, Mr. Horowitz ... (4.00)
    ...leftist stalinist in the 1960s, and rightist stalinist now. His big claim is that he knows what the left was really like because he was a leftist until he wised up. What he doesn't note is that many of us on the left challenged his bullshit totalitarianism then. He was a member of a tiny minority on the left - admittedly influential - that had no love for democracy. Then, he attacked dissenters within the left as not radical enough and treasonous to the "cause"; now he conflates dissenters with traitors and terrorists. He's got a lucrative gig, and, as always, he's out for himself at whatever cost to democracy.

    As for the "new McCarthyism," there is no such thing. It's the same old, same old.

    •  Some things stay the same (none)
      My guess is that in the 1960's Horowitz was planted to make the left look more radical and if lucky act more radical.  This is a standard tactic employed by  intelligence services across the globe.  Google Operation GLADIO as a possible example.  One major clue if something like this is going on here at home is if acts of violence occur and then "unnamed sources" immediately point to liberals (e.g. radical environmentalists).  It is a good thing most liberals trend to peaceful protests which makes their job much more difficult.  
      •  Well, I don't know about that ... (none)
        ...Horowitz is a "red diaper" baby, so he came by his leftism legitimately.
        •  Genuine political conversion (none)
          I've read more about his bio and agree that his views in the 60's were likely genuine but that for him the pull of extremism has remained constant.  It is fascinating how many on the right actually cut their teeth in leftist politics.  
          •  Horowitz - not exactly right vs. left (4.00)
            There are both authoritarian and libertarian strains to both the right sand left. I'm on dKos now because the right has shifted so much toward authoritarianism. In the case of Horowitz -- in light of the above, I think it may be that left vs. right matters less to Horowitz than his allegiance to authoritariansism does.

            If you talk to some of the more intellectual paleo-conservatives and libertarians of the right who have long opposed the neocons, you'll learn more about how neo-con ideology has it's roots in the more authoritarian strains of leftism.

            We're up against fascists. We need a new freedom coalition.

            "... if you wish to know how libertarians regard the State and any of its acts, simply think of the State as a criminal band..." -- Murray Rothbard

            by bradspangler on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 10:11:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Sheesh (none)
    DTN and David Horowitz are unbelievable. They have the pictures laid out like al-Qaeda. Like the 52 cards in the axis of evil.


    "the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad... for the multitude of thine inequity, and the Great Hatred" - violent femmes

    by Tirge Caps on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:39:39 PM PST

    •  I'm reading through his blog entries (none)
      I'm trying to figure out how someone can spew the blather he does and not die of oil clogging his arteries

      Phil Bredesen for ME...oh wait I'll only be old enough to run for Congress. (1st Congressional District of Tennessee)

      by FleetAdmiralJ on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:45:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Are you now, or have you ever... (none)
    been a fan of Pearl Jam?

    DiscoverTheNetwork says:

    One of Pearl Jam's best-known videos (and songs) is "Jeremy," which gives an empathetic view of a troubled student who at the video's conclusion mass-murders his classmates and teacher. The video ends on images of their blood-soaked bodies.

    Just like redneck KKK spuds in the '50s riled up against "animalistic n-word bop music" they get it wrong, wrong, wrong (Jeremy killed himself, the video makes you make a leap of imagination or thought).

    However, accuracy and facts, imagination and thought have never been a hallmark of the people we have come in the past few years to mistrust, despise, loathe and ultimately fear.

    Feeling backed into a corner? Sharpen up the claws, we've got a fight on our hands.


    Disillusioned words like bullets bark
    As human gods aim for their mark

    •  The (none)
      LEAST they could do is stay current

      "the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad... for the multitude of thine inequity, and the Great Hatred" - violent femmes

      by Tirge Caps on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:51:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Stupid MTV (none)
      MTV is a boil on the face of its generation.  They show completely vapid, worthless, borderline pornographic content 24 hours a day and then get all high and mighty and censor all kinds of political content (or anything interesting for that matter.)*

      In this case, they made the video totally confusing by editing it.  In the original version of the video, it's clear that Jeremy is killing himself (you can find the original on the web or p2p networks).  With things like that, they'd be better off not showing the damn video at all, rather than butchering it.

      * Another example of their absurd censorship policy - they bleeped out the word "barrel" in the Sublime video "Santeria".  Removing that word had absoutely no effect on the violent content of the lyrics, and it is not an indecent word by any standard, and it's OBVIOUS what the guy is singing about whether the word is in there or not, but they felt it was important to cut it out anyway.

      -- Want to make a difference? Join the taskforce! --

      by fwiffo on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 10:23:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The New McCarthyism (none)
    Ann Coulter is plagiarizing from me.

    "Just say no to torture." -Semi-Anonymous Blogger.

    by Armando on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:47:27 PM PST

  •  Hate filled Republicans (none)
    That's my working phrase.  Used in 2 stories last weekend.

    "Just say no to torture." -Semi-Anonymous Blogger.

    by Armando on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:49:21 PM PST

  •  2 + 2 = ? (none)
    They are indeed making lists.  In the event of a massive domestic crisis, FEMA has maintained for years places to inter preselected persons likely to resist marshall law.  Liberals would be labeled "enemy combatants."  Remember those voter lists purges in FLA in 2000 were compiled by one of the largest privately owned database companies in the world--Choicepoint.  They have recently been in the news for apparently selling detailed personal information to dozens of Nigerian shell companies.  A similar scheme could place in the hands of these protofascists information which could enable them to target each and every person that has a liberal impulse.  Now I am sure they would never do something like that--would they?
  •  omfg DTN: Abortion is why Democrats lose (none)
    and no...its not because people dont agree with us on the issues but because Since there is (supposedly) more abortions in blue states, we're essentially killing off our own supporters before they're even born

    Yikes.  I think the name "moonbat central" should apply to him and not who he is writing about.

    Phil Bredesen for ME...oh wait I'll only be old enough to run for Congress. (1st Congressional District of Tennessee)

    by FleetAdmiralJ on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:52:23 PM PST

  •  One question (none)
    When did opposition to Isreali policies become anti-American?  I fully recognize Isreali sovereignty and Palestine right to such.  But Rachel Corrie, an American died at the hands of the Isreali military.  Why is she being cast as a traitor to our country?

    A moment of resistance; a lifetime of capitulation.

    by lapin on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:53:31 PM PST

    •  I wouldn't spend (none)
      a lot of time trying to make sense of their choices or rhetoric.  Apparently, being affiliated with the left is enough.

      I remember several stories regarding the religious right's new love affair with Sharon, et al. prior to the 2000 election. Corrie's inclusion is logical, I guess, given that affection.

    •  When? (none)
      The very minute the Neocons took over our nation's foreign policy.

      The Book of Revelations is not a foreign policy manual.

      by Dont Just Stand There on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 12:53:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  That line about the Left (none)
    being "disingenuous" is another in an increasingly large series: "Great Right-Wing Moments in projection and misdirection", but got me thinking about another of the big differences between Progressives and repressives
    which is that on the whole: Progressives use language to express ideas while repressives use language to manipulate people... it's a crass simplification, yes, but try applying it to everything you hear from either side and to use it as a starting point to determine your reaction...crap like this is not surprising, but if you let it get to you emotionally, they have achieved one of their ends (puts you at an immediate disadvantage - an insidious framing device, no?), and you're expending energy on something that really should not amount to much in the end...if anything take it as a sign of desperation on their part that they need to do things that should by rights shame them in front of their Maker...(if they had any self awareness or shame, that is...)

    born on third...thought he hit a triple...soon he'll be sliding into second

    by ontario159 on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:57:18 PM PST

  •  Bad Boo-gee Boo-gee (none)
    That website is outrageous - I can't believe I didn't make it!  

    Make no mistake about it - the center of the hard right truly believes that people who disagree with them are enemies of the state.  

    Sure, Savage and Coulter are loons who've found their niche - they've neatly made some cool cash by aserting Democrats & liberals are traitors.  but they'd never succeed if there weren't gullible, ignorant Americans who blindly accept such destructive speech.

    Unfortunately, it seems the heart & soul of the GOP is closer to Savage & Coulter than reason & respect.

  •  Just another sign.... (none)
    of how divided our nation has become. That your labeled anti-American cause your against the war and facism. The right is infested with some seriously twisted and deviant mutha f---ers!
    •  When they were called up ... (none) various McCarthyist venues, many of the men who went to fight against Franco were called "premature anti-fascists."
      •  That phrase has always killed me. (none)
        When I first heard it, I couldn't believe it wasn't a joke. So... these people were smart enough to be right about Fascism ahead of public sentiment... and why, exactly, was that not a compliment?

        Now I'm older and more cynical, I realize how threatening it is to established powers to be right about any issue too soon, before they have decided you are allowed to think that way. It's a sign that you have been thinking for yourself, which makes you a dangerous radical.

        However, I still think this particular McCarthyist phrase is the most blatant example ever of asserting that independent thought is bad. It's almost as if it was constructed on a dare: "I can get away with turning even this into a synonym for subversive. And the sheep won't dare to argue, because they know what I can do to them if they do."

        "Prematurely anti-Fascist." An assertion of Fascist power.

        Massacre is not a family value.

        by Canadian Reader on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:11:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Indeed: Now they attack FDR relentlessly (4.00) well. They are going after all of his programs. I recently heard someone note that George W. Bush is implementing his grand father's, Prescott Bush, programs. I think that is quite accurate. These people have always feared how FDR empowered the middle class. They felt betrayed. How dare their entitlement be questioned!

    Lately, I've seen alot of shows on whether or not FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to happen. These shows aren't painiting the question in a good light either. Just for the record, I think FDR knew the attack on pearl harbor was coming. However, what you won't see on TV or most of our history books, is the reason we were "isolationist" back then was partly due to the fact that the wealthy elite in this country, the Bush's, the Fords, alot of the idustrialists, were all fascists. They wanted Hitler to succeed. This is why they didn't want the U.S. in the war. This is why FDR knew he had to allow America to be attacked before we would do anything, IMHO.

    Anyway, I've seen alot of programs attacking FDR, but I haven't seen any on how the right wingers in this country had planned to overthrow him and install a military givernment that would back up the industrialists.

    The reason I bring this up is they aren't just trying to marginalize liberals, they are trying to erase us from history, at least in terms of success. Hence the demonization of figures like FDR and Carter and the annointing of "Saints" Reagan and Bush. I think some of the Democrats in D.C. have finally figured out this is a full scale war, just as deadly as the cold war, only this one is being fought within the U.S. We can't afford to lose. For our own sake and the worlds.

    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it. -Tom Paine

    by Alumbrados on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:19:51 PM PST

    •  If history is any guide, the right wing . . . (none)
      will self-destruct under the weight of its own hatred the same way McCartheyism did. Maybe this Gannongate affair is a sign of an upcoming implosion. Let's hope so, at least.
      •  McCarthyism did not "self-destruct" (none)
        McCarthyism was destroyed by the Army-McCarthy hearings. For almost the first time, people got to see them on television, and see exactly what kind of hatemonger McCarthy was. And of course it was soon enough after the war that everyone remembered Hitler & could draw their own comparisons.

        As I said above, sunshine is the best disinfectant.

        As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

        by sidnora on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 07:20:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Fire with Fire... (4.00)
    This is dangerous. There are not just "famous" people on this list. (People have the right to rant about public figures on their web sites. They are crossing the line when they have photos and info about regular joes -- college profs, ACLU lawyers, etc. -- who are merely exercising their rights as citizens and human beings.)

    This is chilling. I say it's time to fight fire with fire. By this I mean:

    (1) Contact some of the "average joes" on this list and encourage them to sue the list creators.

    (2) Lauch a full media campaign -- online and off -- against this abuse.

    (3) Get the ACLU involved.

    It's merely a matter of time until this new site will get as bad as the freeper sites. "John Doe has three children" with names, photos, schools attended....


    •  great suggestions (none)
      we definitely need action items like this. I'm also considering contacting some of the DFA chapters and whip up a little of that Dean piss and vinegar. Thanks for thoughts!

      If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

      by bigskiphazzy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:33:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sounds like a plan to me (none)
      We have to do it before it's too late.

      And you know, maybe we need to have some of the most flaming hate mongers exposed on TV, i.e., put them on Leno or something to spew their hate and let people see how ugly this is becoming.   I mean, that's a fantasy, but as said above: letting decent people see the crazy nutballs in a sane environment (NOT Faux news) might wake people up.

      Fascism: it's the new black.

      by marjo on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:43:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is David Letterman on their list? (none)
        I really can't see Jay Leno doing it.  If he had the balls, he would make a running joke of it, kind of like Letterman did with Oprah. Not that it's a joke, but I think that's the best way to play it out for the masses--make the site the butt of all jokes.  A running joke, that goes on, every couple of days, for months or as long as it takes to innoculate the sheeple.

        Forget Olbermann (as much as I admire what he's doing on Countdown), try to get the big names on network television to pick up on this.  Not screaming "Fire, fire!" but "Can you believe these guys, hahaha..."  Daytime and night-time tv show hosts across the network lines just making jokes...nothing to upset corportation heads or cause a backlash.  Move along folks, nothing to see here...

    •  Even scarier ... (none)
      Think about those sites that target abortion doctors with the not-very-subtle "suggestion" that assasinating them would be some kind of good deed; and if you didn't want to go that far, that harassing their family would be OK too.  

      Are we going to see true believers killing off, well, us?

      On another note, interesting to see Pete Seeger on the list--again.  Must seem like old times.

  •  go into this hateful website and send a message.. (none)
    We will not tolerate any more of the hyprocisy!  Access to the bush whitehouse should read "NO ASS NO PASS"  Enough is enough.
  •  I suppose... (none) could argue that if they aren't smart enough to know how to scale an image in Photoshop while maintaining a correct aspect ratio, how dangerous could they be?

    But more seriously, it is outrageous, but I'm not sure that it really ranks anywhere near the top of right wing outrages. It falls well within the bounds of free speech, especially given that all those pictures are of public figures. If they were making the same accusations against private citizens, there might be something to be done about it.

    In the meantime, those outraged can put up their own humorous website, perhaps one claiming connections between the US President, Nazis, torturers, and terrorists.

    Hey wait! That's not funny!

    "What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out, which is the exact opposite." - Bertrand Russell

    by Mad Dog Rackham on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:30:36 PM PST

    •  These are NOT public figures.... (4.00)
      go beyond the surface, people! Seriously, don't bother commenting on such things if you haven't looked beyond the front page of the site!  :-)

      Click some of the links. Yeah, the people on the front page are politicians and Hollywood stars. Click the other links. You get to people you've never heard of: staff lawyers for the ACLU, professors and academics whose research these guys don't like, economists who are considered "too socialist" for their tastes, people who protest the war on religious grounds, clergy, etc.

      I'm saying it again, folks. This is dangerous!

  •  Where does it go next? (none)
    The only thing that site misses is directions to each person's current location so they can be targeted by Winger nutcases.  

    All it takes is one armed nut to start targeting people on that list, encouraged that they would be doing some good.  McCarthyism is back!

  •  I can see it now... (none)
    In 2006 and 2008, there are campaign ads with pictures of a terrorist and a Senator put together, with ominous stirrings and voice-over. "Do you know that Reid is only a step away from a top-tier terrorist, according to one group" et al.

    I think there's a couple of things we can do here-- especially with the celebrities and senators. First, we have to inform them of this so that they can bring the legal firepower.

    And what's in Horowitz and John Perazzo's past, so we can combat this?

    We really need to be active here...

    •  why wait for 2006? (none)
      It's been done already - remember the ads that had Max Cleland morphing into Osama bin Laden? And they worked. (At least we think they did - there's a case to be made for election fraud there, too.)

      As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

      by sidnora on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 07:23:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not recommended, sorry...irrelevant (none)
    When they start drawing X's through the ones they've killed, liek Operation Rescue did, then I'll recommend we pay attention. Otherwise, this is just their dkosopedia. Fair enough.

    Yesterday we stood at the abyss; today we are taking a step forward.

    by peeder on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:39:38 PM PST

    •  I will say they are sick fucks (none)
      Going after their readership, if there's no hate, there's no bait...

      But stuff like this is ultimately so self-discrediting that while we ought to call these creeps on it, their objective is to get is to protest too much.

      Ignore this shit and focus on the truth about their own rogue's gallery.

      Yesterday we stood at the abyss; today we are taking a step forward.

      by peeder on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:41:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's not relevant until they kill someone? (none)
      Is that what you're saying?

      First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist.

      Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew.

      Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant.

      Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.

  •  They are going to push the envelope... (none)
    further and further...Gannon is peanuts compared to the rape of America that is occuring, including the looting of our treasury, including the theft of our children's future. There is no dialogue to be had with these people.

    Perhaps we ought to begin to put out a few lists of our own.

  •  I say we sign up. (none)
    I should be on the damn list. Hell, I didn't see Kos listed, WTF? With all the attention he's got lately, you'd think he'd be there. Then maybe he could throw us a bone, submit names by userID number, ten at a time or something, until all the Kossacks are in, then we could submit our families names, then they could add their friends, and so on, and so on. I figure it wouldn't take too long before all the Kerry voters are on the list, not to mention some Greens and Libertarians, the entire state of Rhode Island....the bandwidth cost would kill them. </sarcasm>

    Scary shit, 'cause all it takes is one psychopath with a wild hair up his ass....

  •  They're learning (none)
    Apparently the dog can learn a few tricks.  Doing a "whois" yields very little info since they're masking/hiding themselves behind their registrar.

    However, it looks like an old Horowitz domain, "politicalwar .com" is available, ironically.  Perhaps one of our fine leftists should purchase it and launch another front in this war from that site...

    In the mean time, we should be following the money.  Is Horowitz and his minions operating a 501?  Are they making political statements through that 501 that might be in violation of IRS code?  Where's their money coming from?  (the info at is a bit stale, need more current info)

  •  Actually, the idea for the site is really good. (none)
    And we should steal the best part of it. Of course, the right wingers lost the effect.
    If their point is to put Khomeini and other fascists in a list called 'a guide to the political left", well, that is just idiotic and everything the diarist says.
    However, having thumbnail pics and updatable biographies of all known members of the vast right wing conspiracy would be a VERY handy tool. It's a big project of course, but the uses are obvious for researchers.

    I considered leaving the country, but I don't want to become a victim of our foreign policy.

    by AWhitneyBrown on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:16:23 PM PST

    •  The Left needs a site like this (none)
      Actually, ignoring the right wing bias of the content on this site, I've been looking for some time for a map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy in a similar format. I've found bits and pieces of it... For example the excellent work on, or the references to the Rob Stein Powerpoint. But I would love to know of a lefty map similar to this one, that maps out the matrix of funders, think tanks, media organizations, etc. of the far right. Does anyone know of such a site?

      reject their campaign of fear

      by ABQtom on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:47:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here's what we do...... (none)
    INVESTIGATE THEM!  If there's anything we learned from the Republican noise machine, it's that any argument can be dismantled by a few personal attacks.  And that's when we're the honest ones.  

    These guys are liars.  It's easy to defeat them.  We "gannonize" them.  It was easy enough to show that Gannon was a mole for the Repugs, but when we were able to show his profiles for gay websites that he was running, it became all too easy to destroy him.

    Let's go to war!

  •  Well for 30 Years We Watched (4.00)
    and often helped them build their big wooden scaffold with the trap door, overhead beam and 13 steps.

    What the hell did we think they were going to do with it when they got it working? Knit?

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:41:37 PM PST

  •  Fascism 101 (none)

    Good goddamn -- these anti-democratic pukes are at it again.  Sure, the Klan and the Birchers did this kind of stuff, but how many of their klavens had such policital "heavyweights"?  (Power-wise :)

    This kind of list is a warning sign, at least when it has access to political power -- a warning that we're edging towards fascism.  Fascism at its simplist is a nationalist-tinged alternative to Communism.  So when communists are scarce, what do proto-fascists do?  Yep, they invent them.  Bruce Springsteen, Howard Dean, George Soros (they can't possibly call HIM a commie?!), Nancy Pelosi, Osama Bin Laden --all are labeled communists or terrorists.  I guess that's American innovation for you -- a flavor of fascism where communists AND terrorists are the enemy.

    I'm not convinced we're seeing the end of democracy in America, but opinions like this so close to the halls of power make me wonder if we're at the beginning of the end.  Next up, sedition acts?  

  •  Two things: (4.00)
    Your enemy is killing you with language.
    Time and time again, the Right defines the terms (literally) of engagement.  They don't care about accuracy, they just want impact. The centre-left/reasonable people want to say true things, want to be fair.  This slows them down.  They also don't hate so viciously.

    The Right labels themselves Conservative but few of them are.  If you look up Conservative, you will not find the modern Republicon.

    Don't call them conservative.  Conservatives are respectable.  Call them neocons, right wingers etc.

    Many are fascist in belief but that word will discredit you in most discourse.

    People are buying these lies because them are omnipresent but also because they are simple and are being tied in with greed, fear and anger which are powerful feelings.

    Truth is the core of your best weapon.
    You must marry truth to emotion or you will not win people over.  John Q Public needs to know that, not only did the Republicon lie, he lied to John Q Public.  Your message must relate directly to the audience.

    An index of truth is needed, as some people have said.  This won't win the battle but you need a goto resource that is UNASSAILABLE.  That means funding for stringent fact-checking.
      Ideally with a simple and clear indication of any dispute over each fact.  Perhaps color-coded: green is public record, not seriously disputed etc.

    Such a resource will not win the battle but will provide the surity, consistency and confidence that the strong among you will need as you battle for America's consciousness.

  •  We have been at war for some time (none)
    These people declared war on us a long time ago. We have been fighting small skirmishes with them, its time we wake up and attack back with full force.

    It great and all to talk about it here, such as in this diary, but what are we actually going to fucking do about it.

    People who are in a position to do something need to fight.

    What is wrong with these people? I can't answer that question. But its time we give them what they don't what- to fight back. I've said it before, I'll say it again, we need to... "Rally, Speech, Repeat".

    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell

    by Disgusted on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 10:10:14 PM PST

  •  I just emailed (none)
    Keith Olberman and the ACLU, because there was a reference to the profiles as they relate to "security issues".  I think that (security) is the critical aspect of this really dirty campaign.

    I don't know what can be done, but I cannot help but think this smear campaign can have dangerous ramifications for some of those who are innocent.

  •  If we are in a war... (none)
    ...then we have to ask ourselves if we are truly prepared to fight. And I don't mean by letters to the ACLU of Kieth Olbermann.

    Otherwise we have to get used to the idea that we have already lost.

    •  What's your plan? (none)
      I'm certainly ready to support something that would stop their madness, but I really think it is important to get their sleazy/dangerous activities out there to news entities and individuals who have more clout.  I've actually emailed a bunch of news organizations and people, since I last posted.

      Did you go to the page that lists individuals?  Did you click on the icon next to their names and see the active webs that pop up and multiply, implicating those people in organizations they may very likely don't even know exist?  I think the fact that many people who will read that garbage are very unstable, and therefore pose a danger to some very innocent folks.

      Since it is 3:00 am where I am, that's about all I can pull off tonite, but I'd be very interested to hear what your ideas are to "combat" this.

  •  Not a black list at all. (none)
    Look, the site does what anyone can do. Open their mouth and rant. It's not dangerous or insidious or a black list.

    Relax. You are way too worked up over it. And your language isn't exactly inspiring either.

    Get over it. It's Just Another Right Wing Propoganda Web Site. Big deal. The internet is full of them.

    I'm not left or right. I'm ahead. Progressives for the future!

    by weirdscenes on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 11:31:14 PM PST

  •  Okay... (none)
    before I look at the site (and lose my sense of reason) let me just say, only 3 million more people voted for Bush than Kerry.  Following some of the logic re: making liberals targets, interred, etc. being presented in comments here, would mean killing or incarcerating about half the country - does that seem reasonable, possible or probable to you?  

    The Republicans I know are increasingly feeling uncomfortable with what they see happening in Bush policy now...they watch SCSM, but are not trawling the Internet like we do, absorbing every bit of data we can get our hands on...if anything they are lucky to put together 15 minutes of soundbites from CNN, MSNBC, one of the three major networks and a local paper, daily.  They are not hearing or reading the hate speech on that site.  Which is not to say the site isn't creating a highly skewed resource for SCSM folks to draw disinformation from - I know it is - but even the hardcore conservatives I know can discriminate between spin and hate speech and additionally, don't hate liberals per se.  I think that to suggest liberals are the next minority like Jews or gays is paranoid and even a bit narcisisstic.  

    So, I'm not going to lose sleep over this, but I think that site should be analyzed and monitored and outed...discredited for the obvious reasons...and if I were to put time into any campaign, at this point it would be a campaign that covers the entire matter of media disinformation and propoganda; stopping those things by arguing for elements of the Constitution that provide for the general welfare and claiming therefore, that disinformation and propoganda presented as fact and news are unconstitutional...

    •  The right wing is running scared (none)
      " . . . only 3 million more people voted for Bush than Kerry." Due to election fraud, we'll never know if the reverse is actually true: that 3 million more people actually voted for Kerry than Bush.  The only way the Republicans can stay in power is by disenfranchising (mostly poor and African-American) voters. We should never treat the results of the last election as legitimate.
      •  I agree... (none)
        I believe there likely was fraud and if in fact Kerry won my point is further supported; there are too many people in this country to relegate to ghettos.  Republicans, I think, use hate speech to keep their fringes inflamed and proactive.  There is some infection of the vulnerable with their diatribes, but the bulk of people are sane and if not immune, at least shielded by first, their lack of interest in politics and second, their real-life human interactions; they experience Rightists as unhinged these days, not Leftists.
  •  The new Axis of Evil: (none)
    Civil Rights, Human Rights, and Social Justice.


    Pretty funny list of lefty categories. Last two items on the list: "Terrorist" followed by "Union." Yeah, those two have a lot in common.

    And NGO. Whah?

    The poor religious left is on there too--guess the Christian thing only gets you so far, huh? Look out, Jim Wallis, you commie you.

    I don't know, I see the gallery of people as an honor roll. It doesn't seem that dangerous to me, though it could certainly be used in an evil way. And to the extent that it perpetuates misinformation, of course, it's pernicious.

  •  How much in royalties for ... (none)
    fevor-pitched kool-aid drinking orc

    The thing that annoys me most about it is that the "links" are simply common beliefs.  There's no indication of any other link than, say, Garrison Keillor and Jane Fonda are both entertainers.

    That's not a network.

    Some sufficiently motivated individuals could pull the interesting biographical information for various  republicans, and the "ventures" that bind them.  For example: who served in who's cabinet, who served on who's board of directors, who sold arms to whom, etc.  I suspect it would be frightening to see how closely some of them are linked...

    As an example of the interface style, see The Oracle of Bacon (  And try to find the 8...

    uncoverthenetwork perhaps?

    potentially interesting music by gee dub bee

    by geedubbee on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 12:22:34 AM PST

  •  wow (none)
    Ya know any shitlist that includes Gore Vidal is not a bad list to be on.
  •  The Names Project (none)
    This site already exists to do sort of what is being talked about here.

    Although the interface is a little awkward and perhaps tries to convey too much information on one screen. Still, it's something to look at for ideas, I think.

    Whether or not an uncoverthenetwork site gets made or not.

    I think it is better to just keep chipping away at them via Jeffy and where that will all lead. This country may be dumbed down thanks to Fox, Prozac, and celebrity gossip, but I think we are fundamentally decent people when in possession of the facts.

    The days after 9/11 showed us in unity, for the most part.

    Connecting all the dots is written off as "politics as usual," "business as usual," and tinfoil thinking sometimes.

    Stay the course. Expose the bastards to the light. That's the head shot.

  •  Long Time Coming (none)
    That there's nothing new with this latest rightwing smear linking liberals/progressives/Democrats to America's enemies is no reason to dismiss it. On the contrary.

    The more timid the Dems and passive the MSM, the more emboldened the rightwing. I was infuriated at Daschle's tepid response when Bush said that Dems favor special interests over national security, thus insinuating that Dems are unpatriotic. And the truth is Kerry went AWOL from the campaign for months, failing to vigorously attack the Bush Admin's massive deceit and rolling over for the Swifties.

    The best defense is a strong offense. Let's ask why Cheney spoke at a conference which tolerates an advocate of McCarthyism? (Coulter previously praised McCarthy.) And why is the NY GOP chairman practicing McCarthyism? Let's connect the dots of rightwing smear and slander, and force the Dems and MSM to raise the issue of new McCarthyism to a national debate.

    Calling Howard Dean.

  •  Name idea (none)

    I think we'll need lots and lots of server space...

  •  Outrage (4.00)
    That sight reminds me of the one they had for doctors who did abortions.  It's meant for right-wing loons.  It's more of a "hit list" than a "black list" if you ask me.  Very scary.  Some of those doctors were murdered.  I think we should try to get the MSM to cover it and call Horowitz out on it.  Maybe Keith and Jon Stewart.  If they won't, we go after Horowitz big time!  We can't take down the whole movement at once, but we can chip away at them - one by one.  It's gonna' be a long battle!
  •  Send an email (none)
    with a link to this website to everyone they're "profiling".  Leno will have a field day on his show with it and Pelosi, Soros and Moyers can cover the rest.

    I'm going to do it.  Are you with me?

  •  late to the party (none)
    but two ideas

    (1) the one i'm not advocating:  hack in and redirect their url to to the aclu or something.

    (2) start a web page,, real simple, saying what America has come to when it equates liberals with terrorists, then link up to this piece of shit, with a link like "to see the real face of the American fascist state, click here".  Perfect frame for people that will go into the site.

    (3) write to everyone on the list and tell them "Hey!  They're calling you a terrorist!"  At the very least, they should know.

    (4) made a media stink, make it a controversial site so they're forced to take it down.

    How do I get me one of those White House Press Pass thingies?

    by Georgia Logothetis on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 05:55:35 AM PST

    •  and by "two" ideas (none)
      i meant "four".  sheesh.  i can't count.

      How do I get me one of those White House Press Pass thingies?

      by Georgia Logothetis on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 05:56:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's what I was thinking (none)
      Here I am, sitting here reading about this for the second day, and getting more outraged about it. Georgia, why not hack into their site? I like the redirect to the ACLU, or maybe I don't have any hacking skills, but I can do HTML. Starting our own site, using the URL listed above is a great idea. As someone above said, we wouldn't even need to Photoshop the pix, there are so many to choose from.

      "I am your king!" "Well, I didn't vote for you." "You don't vote for kings." - Monty Python

      by Liberaljentaps on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 05:01:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Are they getting desperate? (none)
    With all the bad new coming out about the "White House media propaganda machine" I wonder whether these people are really getting scared about their positons and are trying anything they can to deflect the critism by attacking the 'liberals'.  It is a classic defensive move that Rove has taught them to do so well.

    I think we have to stay on them and continue to write letters, make phone calls, and sign petitions about the control the WH has over the MSM.  I suspect there are more examples of Armtrong Williams and Gannon that are waiting for the bloggers to bring to light.

    I say ignore them, don't give them any credibilty and continue to do what bloggers do best...good journalism.  

    If we don't take them seriously and laugh at them it will make them look as stupid as they are.  I may be naive in thinking this way.  But if you don't engage your enemy on his turf it can be disarming.  I say we use our brains while they use their questionable propaganda.

    •  Yeah, desperate... (none)
      Let's see. They control Congress, the Senate, the White House, and the corporate media. There's nothing left to stop them. Of course they're desperate.

      Just like the insurgents in Iraq -- the more they win, it seems, the more desperate they get.

      Massacre is not a family value.

      by Canadian Reader on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:29:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Gannon-Gucker's (none)
    exposure may play a part in motivating this.  They have interpreted his outing as a "political assassination" by the bloggers and liberal activists.  So they may see themselves as revealing "the truth" about those they call "leftests."  It's bullshit but this may be the first shot fired in retaliation.  
  •  Ironic isn't it? (none)
    They say we want to bring America down when in fact we just want to lift it out of the sewer the right-wing Neo-con artists have put it in.

    Sorry, I have nothing else to add to this conversation.

    by DawnG on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 06:22:06 AM PST

  •  Create 'Behind The Curtains' (none)
    People keep bringing up names similar to this Discover the Network site as a name for a counter-site.  Why not 'Behind the Curtains'.  Their deception is just like the Wizard of Oz's, except far more far reaching, detrimental, and malicious.  Expose the double dealings of the government, from Cheney and Halliburton, to Negroponte's links to the death squads of Central America in the 80s, to the lesser known links that aren't well publicized.  Expose the lies behind the curtains.  Break the smoke and mirrors they've constructed.  They say we have a 'network' with our enemies.  Yet all that does is disguise the machinery both our cynical, destructive, facist government and the terrorist enemies they say they abhor use.

    We dont' even neet to make bad photoshopped pairings.  Show Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam.  Show our supposedly 'balanced' media getting buddy buddy with the government they're meant to hold accountable.  Show the eliminationist similarties betweeen the right's hate speech and those speeches from the facists of WWII, and even those terrorists they claim WE somehow support.  Show Negroponte and the results of the death squads he helped create.  

    Make them realize, they haven't shown anything.  There is no network to discover.  For it's all a sham to distract the public while their strings are pulled by their manipulators Behind the Curtain.

    "The connection between vice and meanness is a fit subject for satire, but when the satire is a fact, it cuts with the irresistible power of a diamond." - Paine

    by Kryptik on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 06:36:30 AM PST

  •  Further (none)
    We need to find out who's behind this website.
  •  We must have hit a nerve (none)
    Spewing forth in a full blown coordinated attack, on everyone we hold dear can mean just one thing.  We hit a nerve, probably with PropaGannon and the WH gay connection.  Now they're muddying the water to cover the blood, blowing smoke and lashing out.  

    They are probably too late.  MSM has finally latched onto the Gannon story and thanks to susan10, there's plenty of material, not just smoke.  

  •  An eye for an eye... (none)
    ...leaves the whole world blind.

    Consider for a moment how rediculous this is.  Yes the right wing "orcs" will look at it and try to use it as ammunition, but they'll just be firing blanks.  You can talk McCarthyisim all you want, but if they start calling Liberals "terrorists" and taking action against them, there will be an outright revolt.  This site is bait, plain and simple, and to get so outraged over it is a waste of energy that could be spent elseware.  I am not saying we don't fight it however.

    Do some digging kossacks.  Find out who registered the site and where the money comes from.  Discredit it's writer and show just how rediculous it is.  Then...when some freeper/drudge-reader/wingnut comes to you, show them the facts and show them just how foolish it is to believe everything you read on the internet.  

    Once it is discredited make it humorous.  Put a picture up of Kid Rock and draw a timeline showing he's the 3rd cousin twice removed of Hitler or something.  Maybe a picture of Bush showing how he came from the Roman that pierced the side of Christ.  These claims the site's author is making are too rediculous for us to legitimize them by taking them seriously.

    Oh...and I'm 22...

    Galatians 6:9-And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

    by Haroshia on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 06:54:54 AM PST

    •  Ideas for some bios on suspected facist people. (none) here's the site's mission statement.

      "Our job is to show the enemies of American freedom and democracy who want to return to something akin to a dictatorship.  We believe that if these individuals go unchecked we will return to a facist system."

      First picture..."George W. Bush"

      "George W. Bush is the leader of the neo-facist group known as the "Republicans".  He was responsible for the 2001 WTC attacks, and has caused the death of over 1500 Americans and countless overseas.  He also kicks his dog and occasionally sings badly in the shower.  Just the other day we saw him only tip 10% at a restauraunt where he received excellent service.  He is a naughty man and should be approached with extreme caution.  He is considered armed but not exceptionally dangerous as he still struggles with using his opposable thumbs.  He is quoted as saying "If you're not with us, you're against us".  One time we were driving and he totally cut us off and shot us the bird.  That was so uncool.  Anyway yeah he's a total dick and everything we said here is true because it's on the internet."

      Post other bio ideas here...

      Galatians 6:9-And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

      by Haroshia on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 07:08:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  You did a great job, however (none)
    this is free publicity for a moronic "movement". The angry enfranchised. I want my picture up there. Those people should be proud that they've made the assholes who put together that site nervous. Anyone can put up a site like that about anyone. We have the technology. SFW? If someone from the left put up a site about right-wingers, Bushco would laugh it off. I'm not going to go to that site again. There are scary sites by "white supremecist". I don't go there either. It's a big world with lots of warped people with time on their hands. Get used to it. If we ignore it, it won't go away, but why publicize it?

    Whatever it is, I'm against it!

    •  i see the point, but i don't agree (4.00)
      First of all, Horowitz has some cred. He's a regular guest on the talk shows, most recently on O'Reilly's show. Second of all, BushCo went fucking ballastic when they found out someone had submitted an ad to comparing Bush to Hitler and they responded to that, even though the ad wasn't even PICKED to make the top 20. So I really think this issue, esp. even the context of the rhetoric recently, is NOT one we ought to ignore. Plus, strategically, if you can link something like this to the party -- and this week we can -- it is very distasteful for the public. This is an opportunity, I think.

      If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

      by bigskiphazzy on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 07:40:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You may be right. (none)
        I will say that I learned of this blog and blogs in general in a newspaper article that wasn't painting them in a good light. Even though it wa anti-blog, I was intrigued and a whole new world opened up to me. My point being, posting the url for any site will increase the traffic at that site. This blog may start a campaign against that web site, but it will also make it known to a larger audience. My only hope is that most people will find it as sickening as many of us do.

        I AM outraged and I AM paying attention! :-)

        •  fair enough (none)
          ...the point is taken re: increased traffic. But, really, I think that whether or not people go to that website right now, is beside the point. As I tried to point out in my diary, this is one extreme piece in an ongoing campaign to ramp up the rhetoric linking liberals with terrorists. If anything, i WANT to draw attention to the site. Because, if done the right way, most average americans will be disgusted with it. And if put in the context of Cheney keynoting the hate-fest earlier this week, an the GOP NY Chair slandering Dean and demos at large, it can be an effective tool, I think.
          BTW, do you have a link to the "anti-blog" article you read?

          If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

          by bigskiphazzy on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:20:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No link, sorry! (none)
            I'm not even sure what paper it was. It was late summer of last year and I was reading a lot of papers at that time. I hope you're right about this tactic. I don't pretend to know the best way to deal with these scary bastards. Rove is always several steps ahead of us. It's like a high-school chess champ playing against Bobby Fischer. Fischer has the whole game played in his head before he makes the first move. That site is scary shit. Mike Farrell and Mohammed Atta side by side? JFC! Maybe the emotional response of those visiting it will be the same as mine, utter disgust! I hope so.

            Whatever it is, I'm against it!

  •  An idea... (none)
    as a counterpoint to the David Horowitz site, create our own.  

    Call it "The Fascists Among Us," and feature Coulter, O'Reilly, Norquist, and the rest of the demented cabal.

    Bush denies presidential timber.

    by Lumiere on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 07:30:05 AM PST

  •  Genesio Zenone (none) appears to be owned by angry young man Genesio Zenone, and according to the whois record, perhaps linked to The Center for the Study of Popular Culture, another nutcase site dedicated to "exposing"

    the "shadow party"... the cloaked, subversive people and groups that have made the Democratic Party their tool for forwarding their radical agendas.

    Mr. Zenone's wacky writings can be read here, here, and here.

    Some of his funnier quotes:

    ...Americans were in fact greeted as liberators by most Iraqis.

    But most people who were and are against the wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq are either ignorant or hypocritical, or both (they are not mutually exclusive adjectives). Either they do not know that, for instance, the "Not In Our Name" and "International ANSWER" antiwar movements are fronts for the world workers party (the same group that defended Milosovich's right to slaughter Muslims) or they do know. Those who do not know are guilty of the sort of lazy posturing that is all too common among those who strike the subversive pose. Those who do know are acting in bad faith, demonstrating anti-Americanism rather then a desire for peace or human rights.

    Liberals may counter that I am conflating them all into the same group, and that there is much more variation than I give credit for. I wish there were; the fact is that those who vary get excommunicated. Solidarity means that everyone has to tow the same line.

    I had no idea we were so united, and organized.  How do I get a key to the secret meeting room?

    Woodward: "How is history likely to judge your Iraq war?"
    Bush: "History? We don't know. We'll all be dead."

    by ubikkibu on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 07:49:06 AM PST

    •  Your counter-site (none)
      members of the Fascist America brigade:

      Publisher & Editor-in-Chief
      David Horowitz

      Content Editor
      John Perazzo

      David Horowitz & Genesio Zenone

      Web Construction
      Genesio Zenone

      Web Assistant
      David Dennick

      Joel Mowbray

      Researchers & Writers
      Lowell Ponte
      Richard Poe
      Mike Bauer

      Jacob Laksin
      Karen Hickey
      Roberta Leguizamon
      Joe Wilson
      Thomas Ryan
      Joe Kaufman
      Lisa Makson
      Claude Cartaginese

      Jeff Wiener
      Greg Yardley
      Kevin Beckman
      Larry Cott
      Lee Kaplan
      Anders Lewis

      Woodward: "How is history likely to judge your Iraq war?"
      Bush: "History? We don't know. We'll all be dead."

      by ubikkibu on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 07:55:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  my dear ubikkibu (none)
      you didn't get your excommunication notice?

      Fascism: it's the new black.

      by marjo on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:24:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Wasn't someone looking for this guy? (none)
    I seem to recall a diary that had something to do with Erick Stakelbeck and someone looking for things on him.

    He wrote chapter two of this pdf psoting on the site.


  •  will we wait for our own Kristalnicht? (4.00)
    you're right, this is very scary to me.  See Mohammed Atta's face beside so many people I admire gave me a real start.  But how do we fight this?  Does anyone really take online petitions seriously?

    This is what Gingrich and Rove and Luntz have created.  If this is not stopped, well, I don't want to think about it.  When a man like Jimmy Carter can be called a traitor and no one goes WTF?  Putting Phil Donahue and Bill Moyers beside Osama bin Laden is simply OBSCENE.

    There are those who say "fascism" is an exaggeration, but I keep thinking of those in Germany who just couldn't believe what was happening until it was too late.

    I like the idea of Bush Sr. and Clinton being buddies.  I almost think we should be targeting moderate conservatives in Congress and elsewhere and asking them to come out against this kind of smear tactic and poisoning of the public discourse.  Even if it didn't persuade one wingnut, it would stimulate the consciences of the decent repugs still among us.  Surely there must be one or two left??

    Fascism: it's the new black.

    by marjo on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:19:47 AM PST

    •  you are so right (none)
      I wish I would have included the Carter ref. in my overall contextual argument. I actually think this is a great opportunity, if we can get our act together. Considering the tenor of GOP activity this week, linking their recent convention activity with the NY GOP Chair smear, with this website REALLY gives us a hook about how hateful and dangerous these people are becoming. Think of all the "special interests" that have been slandered:
      Black Community: Barack Obama
      Springsteen Community (and it's huge, beleive me): Bruce Sprinsteen.
      Dean Community (DFA): Again, huge.

      and that's just off the top of my head. If we could rally all these folks to cry "NO! this is enough!" we could really begin a dialogue on status of "dialogue" in this country. And I think this web site puts us in the driver's seat.

      If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention.

      by bigskiphazzy on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:30:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Unfortunately, (none)
      There is not one, let alone "some" moderate conservatives willing to face the screwed-up faced, spitting, enraged mob that will attack if they do.  We are on our own, brothers and sisters.  Hate rules our political system.

      I am sort of a laughingstock in my little Christian community because I am "so militant".  If any of those right wing, so-called friends of mine knew that I had been targetted by such a group, they would say something like, "Oh, how sad!  Diane got attacked by some disturbed person who didn't like her politics.  Well, that's what you get when you are such an extremist.  Still, it's too bad.  She sure did lover her family.  What will they do now?  Do you think we should go to the funeral?"

      It would probably end up being blamed on Clinton.

  •  Please help me (none)
    I gave a troll a 4 rating for a sick comment when I meant to give him a zero.  I went back to change it and the comment is gone.  I feel sick.
  •  Blue/Red Alliance (none)
    Yes -- this is pretty darned scary, and we need to be vigilant and vocal and visible.

    We also must not let the wingnuts succeed in dividing this country into two hate-camps.

    Part of our grassroots efforts should be focused on creating red/blue alliances in which real Americans (of which there are still a few remaining, I think (?)) can find common ground.

    Otherwise, we play right into the hands of the fundies.

    To paraphrase Sherman: some of them might think this kind of new civil war would be all glory, but boys and girls -- it would be all hell.

    Sorry to be so earnest, but this crap really frightens me. Go read the first couple of chapters of James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom, in which he sets up the social and economic framework for the U.S. Civil War. The parallels are chilling. It really could happen here (again).

    "We come in the age's most uncertain hours and sing an American tune..." Paul Simon

    by mxwing on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:55:00 AM PST

  •  If this be war... (none)
    If we are in fact at war, then let us begin the killing. Let every one seize their gun and begin shooting.

    Those of us who are concerned with preserving our civilization refrain from using blood-soaked terminology. It's amazing how quickly a metaphor can be transformed into reality.

  •  We are living in Orwell's 1984, folks.... (none)
    and they are targeting, now...

    The only thing that Orwell could not consider in 1984, which may turn out to be our saving grace, is the NET!

    With it we can enter their offices and sometimes even listen to them - we can untangle their conspiracies, we can find out about their "interests" and expose their corruption.

    It's our only hope. Of course, they're targeting the Net, too, unfortunately....

  •  Forward Please (none)
    This type of webpage should be forwarded to Jesus's General.  He will give it the attention it deserves.  You might even get a Helmet Tip.
  •  Go Profile Yourself! (none)
    Let's all profile ourselves!  Let's all ask our friends to do the same.  Go to
    I'm going to submit a profile of myself as someone who:
    Opposes imperialism
    Supports free speech and dissenting views
    Thinks their web page shows some very smart, honest and truly patriotic people

    Flood these morons!

    "Dig within; there lies the wellspring of all good. Ever dig and it will ever flow" Marcus Aurelius

    by Mosquito Pilot on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 11:18:17 AM PST

  •  The new Klan (none)
    Im not scared of these assclowns.  I pity them. Imagine walking around with such hatred inside of you. Theyll be dead of heart attacks and cancers within ten years with that vile inside festering and rotting away at their insides.

    Pretty gruesome eh?

    Lifes too short when youre this good.

    by ksecus on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 11:23:41 AM PST

  •  Since Howard Dean (none)
    did such a good job repudiating the comments of Steven Minarik, the chair of the New York State Republican Party who compared Democrats to terrorists last week, I thought that Chairman Dean would be the appropriate person to respond to the Discover the Network slander. Dean's response to Minarik also got wide-ranging press coverage.

    I wrote Dean an e-mail asking that he address the Discover the Network website. If you think that Dean is the appropriate person to respond to this website, then I encourage you to write an e-mail to Dean as well. A copy of my e-mail, which I'd be happy to have used as a template, as well as the contact link for Chairman Dean, can be found here.  

  •  Send it to the CBC.... (none)
    The Fifth Estate did a profile of Fox and there lies and had a hilarious piece on Ann was the funniest thing I have ever seen, she basically said why didn't Canada support the US when they had fought in WWII,Vietnam ....etc together.  The interviewer said Canada never fought in Vietnam....Ann....yes they they didn't....Ann I think your wrong...guess what Ann was wrong.  

    CBC would think that website is incredably wrong....why isn't McCain or Bush even denouncing it.  In fact if they are aware of such sites they would have to denounce them and if they didn't that would become the story.  Any loon can have a site like this one but when people in the Senate and Congress and the white house regardless of the party don't comment on them something is very wrong.

  •  What about a slander/libel suit? (none)
    Admittedly, I don't have the stomach to paw through the site and see what might make the best case, but....

    I think that a few Kossacks have the skills to find out who exactly "owns" the website--well, why not hit them where they hurt?  Like that law firm that nearly bankrupted the KKK?

  •  OK On the Bright Side (none)
    The more THEY keep attacking good people and ideas...
    ...With a stream of what is clearly vomit/excrement...
    ...The more REAL PEOPLE are going to have to realize that it is their own tastes, values, allies, and idols that are being trashed.

    I think that's what broke McCarthyism.
    This is of course much bigger than McCarthyism.
    I think in their hubris the Wrong Wing has put their whole crooked idiology on the line, tying it to the Neo-Cons and the Rupert Murdoch opportunistic organisms.

    So if we can break this, we gain more than the previous status quo.
    I think we can really change most people's minds in this country, and get them to where we are.
    If we do that, and hold onto it, we win.
    We should help them by neatly graphing all the things wingnuts are against.
    Then getting that out to all the supposed rightwingers, moderates, and those that have thus far remained uncaring.
    What they will see on that list is a lot of stuff they like and a lot of stuff they think it is their duty to live with in a free country.

  •  typical (none)
    how typical of horowitz, nothing but lies come out of the right and people swallow them full.
  •  It's just sad... (none)
    did you see their "terrorist network map"? Looks like seven degrees of seperation to indictment. took only four steps to go from Kucinich To Abdel Rahman. sick fuckers don't need proof or logic to murder reputaions. I wonder when they're finally gonna burn down the Reichstag?
  •  discover (none)
    the proper way to alphabetize peoples' names, is what I think they should do first...

    I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes...

    by 2501 on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 03:24:09 PM PST

  •  Two comments (none)
    1. Isn't it strange that the reasons they list as valid reasons to hate these people are usually the reasons why I love them?

    2. We need to do something like this. Start with Michelle Malkin. An Asian woman who supports racial profiling needs to be taken

    When I want dark, depressing thoughts about alienation and nothingness, I watch cable news.--Josh Lyman

    by PerfectStormer on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 05:42:02 PM PST

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