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I am unpatriotic. I am not loyal to any country and I do not ever intend to be. I do my level-headed best to be unpatriotic every single day of my life. And I mean to keep on doing so until I die.

I believe patriotism is an evil that has to be rejected consciously and constantly.

I think patriotism invites us to confuse human values, like fortitude, love, generosity, and honesty with national values.

I think patriotism invites us to confuse human ideals, like democracy, equality, freedom, autonomy, and integrity, with national ideals.

I think patriotism teaches us to be insular, parochial and isolationist in a world where internationalism and an awareness of our interconnectedness is desperately needed.

I think patriotism teaches us to think of national borders as things that protect us from them -- to divide the world into insiders and outsiders, `family' and `strangers.' But national borders are nothing more or less than the scars of empire, the knife that severs families forever, the barbed wire fence that guards hoarded, stolen grain in a time of famine. They are prisons, not protection.

I think that when we confuse human values with national values, and human ideals with national ideals, we diminish the humanity of those with whom we do not happen to share citizenship. And in doing so, we become less than human. When we betray others, we betray ourselves as well.

And no, I am not confusing patriotism with nationalism. I've read the arguments about how patriotism is about loving your country whereas nationalism is about hating other countries. I think they reek of intellectual dishonesty. It's awfully convenient to be able to disavow the unpleasant consequences of patriotism as products of nationalism. And you'll notice that it's always them that are nationalist - nationalism is never something that we are implicated in. The distinction between patriotism and nationalism is an opiate for the conscience. It is a soporific when we need wakefulness.

Challenging conventional wisdom isn't something that wins many popularity contests - and the idea that patriotism is a virtue is a strong tenet of conventional wisdom. How much easier and much more comfortable, then, to blame war-mongering, xenophobia, immigrant-bashing, and the distortion of history on `those nationalists,' rather than to consider the possibility that `our' seemingly benevolent patriotism is among the contributing causes.

Let me leave you with some quotes - not the usual kind of quotes that you read about patriotism.

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it." George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.
--Bertrand Russell

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!  ~Albert Einstein

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography.  ~George Santayana

 If I knew something that would serve my country but would harm mankind, I would never reveal it; for I am a citizen of humanity first and by necessity, and a citizen of France second, and only by accident.  ~Montesquieu

I am not an Athenian or a Greek, I am a citizen of the world.  ~Socrates

Patriotism, the virtue of the vicious.  ~Oscar Wilde

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched.  ~Guy de Maupassant

Patriotism . . . is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods: a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, increases his arrogance and conceit.
-- Emma Goldman

Originally posted to dove on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:34 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Interesting counterpoint to the other diary. (none)
    I can, without cognitive dissonance, be both patriotic in the sense of the other diary, and unpatriotic in the sense of this one.
    •  Hmmm (none)
      How do you resolve them?

      I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth and I am a citizen of the world -- Eugene Debs

      by dove on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:41:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  easy (4.00)
        My diary tried to focus on patriotic DISSENT. Like the difference between 'my country, right or wrong', and the quote somebody gave of 'Our country -- when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right'. Critical,  patriotism.
        Without that essential ingredient, we do have the rabid nationalism you mentioned, which already IS a problem with the neocon men.  

        Fyi.. I recommended this diary, because I feel BOTH viewpoints are correct in a sense.. and should be discussed. I had to laugh when I saw the title!

        •  I do appreciate the recommend =) (none)
          I was hoping you'd post here -- this diary started out as something I was going to post on yours, but it got too long and I didn't want to disrupt that conversation.

          I get that you're focusing on the idea that dissent is patriotic -- and I'm certainly not wanting to accuse you or indeed much at all of what I saw in the comments on your diary as espousing the neocon brand of patriotism.

          But I do think it's a mistake to invoke patriotism in support of dissent -- to try and frame dissent as patriotic. Partly it's that dissent and a politically critical stance not particular to any one nation, so why frame dissent as a 'patriotic' value rather than as a human value? Why not frame it in terms of responsible citizenship (although even that's not without its problems IMO), say, rather than patriotism?

          But it's not just that. One of the big problems with patriotism is that it is not just about love for the place where you live -- it's also about inclusion, exclusion and ownership.

          So, for example, I lived in the States for quite a few years, and I sure as hell dissented lots while I was there. And I guess I've continued to dissent in a number of ways since leaving. If dissent is patriotic, does that make me a U.S. patriot? Did my dissent count less because I'm not a U.S. citizen? I'd say 'no' and 'no' on both counts, but I met no shortage of people who would have answered 'yes' to the last.

          Hmm, coherency is evading me tonight.

          I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth and I am a citizen of the world -- Eugene Debs

          by dove on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 03:27:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  worthy of thought at least (none)
            Thing is, I was bringing up the topic of patriotism not because I'm rabidly for it, but because its a potent political tool. The power behind patriotism is really about ownership, as you note. Romans would say they are a citizen OF rome.. that they were 'owned' by the empire. Modern patriots would talk about 'MY America'.. that they owned it. subtle, but massive difference.
            As others brought up, this can be applied in different ways, through  patriotism to the the state or the 'national' ideals. I chose ideals, believing that the true values of america are not just ours, but humanities.
            Most values are important to people only when they can 'own' them. So among other things, I was showing how to stand behind a set of values and 'own' them.

            You are right in that this is dangerous, and divisive. But the more dangerous alternative, blind nationalism is already quite prevalent in country these days. I thought re-directing this patriotism towards our true ideals would be at least worth a shot on political terms.

            •   Yeah (none)
              I think I know what you mean -- I used to fight about this with a friend when I lived in the States. His argument was essentially that the concept of patriotism has such emotive force and potency that tactically, we can't afford to cede it to the Republicans -- that we have to reclaim it in order to win.

              I don't see that as being quite what your argument is, but it seems to me that they are somewhat akin?

              I totally agree that patriotism is a hugely powerful political tool. But I don't think the left can use it. The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house and all that.

              Hmmm. Have you read Robert Jensen's essay Saying Goodbye to Patriotism? He addresses the issue of using the language of patriotism as a tactical move -- I found what he had to say really compelling when I read it. And it's a great essay -- it's particular to the U.S., but the general ideas apply more broadly I think.

              I also think you're absolutely right about people needing to feel a sense of political ownership -- my hope is that there are places they can get that sense of ownership other than patriotism.

              I think that part of the strategy needs to be figuring out how to get people to own internationalism.

              I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth and I am a citizen of the world -- Eugene Debs

              by dove on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 06:00:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Very interesting article (none)
                I read the article, and I actually thought it hit rather hard, although it missed a few key points.  Critical is the conclusion. I don't feel you can push your values without convincing people to listen.

                It all comes back to politics in the end. What do you do when your entire cause and everything you say is dismissed as the ranting of a traitor? Because that is what republicans are doing right now.

                I WANT to say I am for humanity. But that would just be mocked, derided and ignored. I want to say I am for freedom, for liberty.. all the ideals that america has, but belongs to the world. But that would also be ignored, ranting of a traitor. It is deplorable when a country comes to such ends. So I will fight with every tool in my arsenal to oppose it. If it needs patriotism, I'll use it. Its not quite the same argument as your friend, as I'm using patriotism in more than one way. But it does essentially boil down to that, yes.

                Thing is, thats the only tool I can see to oppose such blind nationalism. If I can take back the mantel of patriotism from extremists, maybe they will listen this time. And once they listen, I'll bring out my other tools.

                You might note that I did go on as .. I believe.. then say I'm a patriot. My values define my patriotism, as it should be. But there's a twist. Pushing "American" values along with patriotism both makes the argument harder to ignore, and pushes our values.

                Nothing is ever black and white though.. and more than one way of approaching a problem usually works best. I though that article failed to mention a counter proposal besides getting rid of the 'rude' patriotism. Do you have an ideas how to do this?

      •  Dissent as a function of patriotism (none)
        I wrote a diary about dissent and patriotism once. But I can never be a patriot of the sort that says, when confronted with America's shortcomings, "Other countries have problems, too. It's still the greatest country in the world."  I wrote a comment that included this statement:
        Touqueville said that America was great because America was good.  He added that if America ceased to be good, she would cease to be great.  We have ceased to be good, and we have ceased to be great in the ways that count.  Rather than repent, our leaders have taken refuge in the false greatness of military and economic might.
        •  I'd take that one step further (none)
          I hope you don't object.

          America is the only country deliberately birthed into the self-imposed friction of serving the highest needs of its people. This country stood up and announced to the world that it would be a democracy, ensuring liberty and justice for all and forever.

          When Americans stop striving to defend this democracy, our liberty and justice, not only does America cease to be good or great - it ceases to be, period. America, without her humane and just soul, becomes a republic of North American states - and nothing more.

  •  Yes this is a reaction to bree's diary (none)
    I think I understand why people want to challenge Republican efforts to establish a monopoly on 'patriotism' -- but I think it is a mistake, morally and tactically.

    I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth and I am a citizen of the world -- Eugene Debs

    by dove on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:34:25 PM PST

    •  Sigh (none)
      This reminds me so much of my dad, who sadly passed away recently.  He would have agreed 100% with you and taught me the same.  There is no shame in not being patriotic, nor for that matter, is wishing for a world government so that all people everywhere are fed, clothed, housed, healed and educated.
    •  Patriotism or nationalism? (none)
      They get interchanged a lot but I think there's a difference.

      Nationalism is, to my mind, "My country right or wrong." We all know that's for scoundrels and deluded fools. Patriotism, on the other hand, is one's willingness to protect your country and your countrymen.

      Patriots fight to ensure equal rights. Patriots fight to keep the "American dream" accessible to all enterprising souls. Patriots fight to keep Gonzales from becoming our Attorney General, Novak from disseminating propaganda, etc, etc, etc...

      America is not so much a country as it is an idea. We are not so much countrymen as we are transitory keepers of this democracy, liberty and justice. Without democracy, liberty and justice as our guiding lights, America is just another piece of real estate between Canada and Mexico.

      Can you honestly tell me that you do not value democracy, liberty and justice? Can you honestly say that you cannot in good conscience protect and defend those values for the good of America? Can you honestly contend that there is no nobility in that patriotism?

      •  Active Citizen? (none)
        Being an advocate for human rights and the laws that make those rights (and attendant responsibilities) operational -- at multiple jurisdictions -- sounds more like what you are interested in, rather than either patriotism or nationalism. Being a good citizen -- at local, state, national, and international levels (plus a few odd levels, like a regional part district).

        No one really goes around warring from town to town or state to state anymore.... unless you want to count the fisticuffs at various sports events, or cross-neighborhood gang violence, and noone condones either of those as Good Things.  So, what's so different about the national level, that we have to get all Righteous and break out the bombs?  

        I think that's what Dove is getting at -- I know it's what I'm trying to get at.....

        •  Not necessarily (none)
          Although I respect your viewpoint, and Dove's.

          My position is that this country is not a country in the traditional sense. We were born into the burden and delight of being the keepers of its principles, which upon this nation's birth were said to be forever binding. No American can truly be an American in spirit without being a keeper of those ideals for this country - which invariably means being a good citizen, staying prepared to grant consent for governance to those ends.
          And it is America specific (although I have tremendous compassion for the plight of others around the world and do a lot privately to help when I can). I feel I have a duty to keep America's democracy strong, defend my personal liberty and the liberty of our nation and protect access to justice for all.

          It's a lot more complicated than time constraints permit me to explain right now, actually. And it may not be something we agree on, which may not even be necessary in order for us each to protect America's nobility. But it's hardly a shallow concept or commitment.

          •  But other nations have principles, too... (none)
            The US was 'conceived' by it's Declaration of Independence and then 'born' by its Constitution. I don't know that that's Unique In All The World.... it's certainly not unique that one group of folks invaded the land of other folks and then decided to set up their own government.....

            Maybe other nations actually have it harder and deserve additional credit for being 'born again' -- i.e., sometime in their adolescence or adulthood they looked at what they were and said they needed to do something differently -- believe in human rights and have faith in democracy(in one of many possible forms), without running over into some other group's lands to 'start from a clean slate'.

            I used to think that because I was born into the US, that somehow I had a special obligation to the US, but I sure didn't have a problem moving out of my hometown or home state -- or the regional park district! I do think, now, that where ever I live, I have an obligation to hold those governments to their ideals -- as embodied in municipal charters,  state consitutions, and national constitutions.

            I consider myself to be "truly an American in spirit", i.e., being active to keep America to the ideals embodied in the national Constitution, but I don't at all consider that I need to be "America specific."  To me, the first just doesn't require the second in any way.

            Anyway, I appreciate the discussion....

      •  Democracy, liberty and justice (none)
        are not American values. They are human values and ideals and they are not the product or property of any nation. When these values are claimed as 'American,' (or British or Zambian for that matter) the struggles and accomplishments of people all over the world are belittled.

        Re. patriotism as 'protecting your country and your countrymen?'  

        Hmmm. You seem to be assuming I'm an American. I'm not. The U.S. is certainly one of the places towards which I direct my unpatriotism, since I lived there for a long time, was politically active there, and have close familial ties there. But I don't see patriotism as an evil peculiar to the United States, although I do think it runs rife there.

        I don't have a country that I would claim as mine in the sense that I think you mean -- in the sense of some kind of straight-forward unproblematic 'belonging.' There are countries where my rights to be political and my rights to live and work are recognised. I don't have voting rights in the country where I hold citizenship, for example, but I do have limited voting rights in the country where I currently live as a non-citizen. And I consider all of the various places that I've lived 'home' in some ways and 'not home' in others.

        The concept of 'countrymen' gets troublesome too. If you mean 'people that I happen to have the same citizenship as, but don't know personally,' well, I don't see my obligations to strangers as being based on citizenship. In any case, in my ordinary life I don't usually encounter (in person) people with the same citizenship as me -- one or two people a year at most, so it's kind of moot.
        (Obviously I phone my family, and try and keep in touch with old friends though)

        The people I'm inclined to want to protect are my husband, our families, my neighbours, my friends, the people I work with, and the people I've been involved in activism with. Most of them don't have the same citizenship as me.

        And I do honestly contend that there is no nobility in patriotism, for any country. Do lots of people who call themselves patriots do much that is good in the world? Yes. But I think they do that good despite their patriotism, not because of it.

         

        I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth and I am a citizen of the world -- Eugene Debs

        by dove on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 05:14:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary, excellent quotes (none)
    I expecially like the ones by Albert Einstein and Emma Goldman.  To me, all your points ring true, so I guess I'm also not a patriot.
  •  Lovely diary, thanks. (4.00)
    I agree completely. Nation-states and patriotism are so 20th Century. And think of the millions that dies for this outdated ideology.

    If America is all about spreading democracy, let our aim be to get rid of nation-states and establish a world democracy, one person one vote.

    That includes China and India and every African. If we really believe "all men are created equal" let's apply that notion internationally.

    Every human should have a say in how this planet's resources are used, preserved, and consumed.

    A Democratic world would be a fair world.

    The only flad I salute.

    •  I like that flag (none)
      Another quote

      Borders are scratched across the hearts of men
      By strangers with a calm, judicial pen,
      And when the borders bleed we watch with dread
      The lines of ink across the map turn red.
      ~Marya Mannes, Subverse: Rhymes for Our Times, 1959

      I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth and I am a citizen of the world -- Eugene Debs

      by dove on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:44:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Crap! I accidently unrecommended. (none)
  •  I have nothing wrong w/ a lil patriotism (none)
    I't is not putting a sticker, made in China, on your car.

    It's hard to be patriotic for a country whom you have no agreement with (polices and such).

    hope the right spin machine dosen't see this, imagine the context they would put some of this diary in....

    Good diary...

  •  I think the distinction is properly made between (none)
    loyalty to your country, and loyalty to its government, or the rulers of the day.

    to have loyalty - which to me means love and good hopes for the future - to your country should not equate to being willing to do anything and everything to ensure that your good hopes are fulfilled.  patriotism cannot be your exclusive value, though I think it often is.

    your quotes are excellent prose I could have used in my (somewhat cruder) diary on being patriotic versus being a citizen of the world.  to me, I thought of the term "globalism" but I think now that's too crude.  "humanism"?  probably too touchy-feely.  other suggestions for recognizing we're humans first, and Americans second?

    No matter how cynical you become ... you can never keep up.

    by LegalSpice on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 03:02:45 PM PST

  •  I agree. (none)
    And I really hate it when I say that to someone and their reply is something like, "Oh, so you hate America then?  You don't care about your country?"

    Well, no, I don't care about the arbitrary boundary lines that someone else's ancestors (mine are immigrants) drew.  I care about the people here that I know and love, but that has nothing to do with the country.  And I care equally about the people that I know in love within other arbitrary boundary lines.

    My signature could easily also say, "The less a politician amounts to, the more he loves his country."

    The less a politician amounts to, the more he loves the flag.

    by tryptamine on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 03:09:20 PM PST

  •  Chomsky on patriotism (4.00)
    Noam Chomsky on national patriotism.   Apologies for the length of the quotation, but I think that this one is worth reading.

    At the national level, what "patriotism" means depends on how we view the society. Those with deep totalitarian commitments identify the state with the society, its people, and its culture. Therefore those who criticized the policies of the Kremlin under Stalin were condemned as "anti-Soviet" or "hating Russia". For their counterparts in the West, those who criticize the policies of the US government are "anti-American" and "hate America"; those are the standard terms used by intellectual opinion, including left-liberal segments, so deeply committed to their totalitarian instincts that they cannot even recognize them, let alone understand their disgraceful history, tracing to the origins of recorded history in interesting ways. For the totalitarian, "patriotism" means support for the state and its policies, perhaps with twitters of protest on grounds that they might fail or cost us too much. For those whose instincts are democratic rather than totalitarian, "patriotism" means commitment to the welfare and improvement of the society, its people, its culture. That's a natural sentiment and one that can be quite positive. It's one all serious activists share, I presume; otherwise why take the trouble to do what we do? But the kind of "patriotism" fostered by totalitarian societies and military dictatorships, and internalized as second nature by much of intellectual opinion in more free societies, is one of the worst maladies of human history, and will probably do us all in before too long.

  •  If you're into this (none)
    You'll appreciate the book Mountains beyond Mountains by Tracy Kidder - about Dr Paul Farmer - a Harvard ID doc who serves the world.
  •  HEAR HEAR! (none)
    I totally agree with your sentiment.  I am a citizen of the world and the world is my family.  
  •  Insofar as patriotism does too often (none)
    make citizen's feel protective of their country, makes it "special" in grand scheme of the world, I would agree that patriotism doesn't always engender the most noble instincts.

    However, I think I'm a different kind of patriot.  The kind that loves the ideal of America and sees progressive politics as a means for fulfilling that ideal.  Now, there's another side to America, the side I oppose.  But, there are underbelly sides to all countries.  America is not uniquely bad.  Just too powerful for it's own good sometimes.

    There is also the patriotism that moves people to sacrifice for civic duty.  Like go into public life when a ton of money could be made in the private sector, but they use their talent to better this country because, I suspect, like me, they love the ideal of America.

    "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

    by Cathy on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 03:31:27 PM PST

  •  You folks really have me lost on this one (none)
    The Democratic party is a functionary in our national political system which I thought we generally agreed to participate in for good or ill. Lately it makes me ill, but I'm still an American and I love this country. It has given me much. It strikes me as naive to aspire to be a "citizen of the world" unless you mean this in a cute philosophical way. Practically, the other countries around our globe aren't coming to your party any time soon. To be patriotic as I have always understood it is to love your country - which includes not being blind to its faults - and to also celebrate and defend the many good things it provides for you and your fellow citizens. Our social contract on a basic human level extends across the world, but politically and practically it functions within this construct called America. For that reason, I find this position childish and perversely elitist. And I would defend, patriotically and to the death if necessary, your right to hold it. It is a right granted to you as an American citizen.
    •  asdf (none)
      "It is a right granted to you as an American citizen."

      Well, I'm not. So I guess you won't be defending me to the death then.

      And no, I don't mean 'citizen of the world' in a 'cute philosophical way.' I'm not into cuteness.
      And I doubt that Debs was either.

      I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth and I am a citizen of the world -- Eugene Debs

      by dove on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:18:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Patriotism??????? (none)
    Barbara Ehrenreich:
    No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.

    Or perhaps . . .
    David Hume:
    The heights of popularity and patriotism are still the beaten road to power and tyranny; flattery to treachery; standing armies to arbitrary government; and the glory of God to the temporal interest of the clergy.

    Or then again . . .
    Edith Cavell:
    I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone.

    Maybe this?
    Samuel Johnson:
    Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

    Or, in the context of this President's war? . . .
    George Washington:
    I do not mean to exclude altogether the idea of patriotism. I know it exists, and I know it has done much in the present contest. But I will venture to assert, that a great and lasting war can never be supported on this principle alone. It must be aided by a prospect of interest, or some reward.

    H. L. Mencken:
    In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell.

    Henry Steele Commager:
    Men in authority will always think that criticism of their policies is dangerous. They will always equate their policies with patriotism, and find criticism subversive.

    Howard Thurman:
    During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.

    Goethe:
    Patriotism ruins history.

    We could go on . . . .

    When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart. - Emerson

    by foolrex on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:52:44 PM PST

    •  I'll fess up (none)
      You caught me. I should have said, 'not the quotations about patriotism that people seem to pay attention to.'

      I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth and I am a citizen of the world -- Eugene Debs

      by dove on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:55:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Many types of "patriots" (none)
        Wasn't trying to "catch you," but I'm glad that your diary gets people to talk about what it means to be "patriotic."  And whether behaving in a certain manner makes one a "patriot" or not.  It seems that worlds of good or evil dwell in the use of labels whether "patriot," "lib" or "con," and wes should be careful about what baggage any of these frames carry with their mere utterance.

        Here's a link for all those quotes and more:
        http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_patriotism.html

        When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart. - Emerson

        by foolrex on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 05:23:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  A question, sincerely posed. (none)

    I concur, wholeheartedly, that a sense of inter-conectedness is needed, and that patriotism, however understood, is not a good thing if it impairs the ability to see the just demands and sufferings of people in other nations.

    My question comes out of this.  In my experience, from what I have seen in my 54 years in this here vale o' tears, while I intend no disrespect to the diarist, in broad, general terms I have sometimes marveled that many -- probably most -- of the people who loudly proclaim themselves to be citizens of the world, and lovers of all of humanity, are not the most convincing lovers of any actual people in the concrete sense, such as their family members and co-workers.

    My question is whether perhaps the love of all of humanity, in any meaningful sense, may be beyond the powers of most of us mortal sinners.  Is there a way that we can love the humans close at hand, and perhaps our own country, without failing to do justice to othres?

    "I did not like fascists when I fought them as a diplomat . . . and I don't like them now in my own country." (Joe Wilson)

    by proudtinfoilhat on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 05:01:03 PM PST

  •  Interesting question, great quotes! (none)
    I've always found it ridiculous to be proud of something you didn't create. I think you can be proud of your country or community if you contribute to it, but just living here, consuming and proclaiming your patriotism is empty.
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