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...aka yet another meta diary.

You know, whenever I see one of those "Yeah!" or "Agreed" or "Right on!" or "Well said" comments, the ones that are either -nt- or one liners, I'm extremely tempted to rate them 2.  Not out of spite, as I often find myself in agreement as well, but because they really are just marginal comments.  They add nothing new to the discussion, they're inherently redundant and just state the obvious.  As much as I am for expressing common support here (our own unity and strength as a community is important to our success, and I realize this), it seems that just rating a comment you like a "4" is much better than adding a useless reply.  Such replies just slow everything down, clog up the database, cost Kos bandwidth/server space, slow down the site for everyone, and perhaps most importantly, adding more noise to the site that makes it more difficult to divine the signal.

Now I do realize there is some irony in putting up a meta-diary about noise and signal, because the argument could be posed that meta-stuff in general is pretty useless noise (that is, we're not actually discussing politics, just discussing how we discuss politics).  I would say that there is some truth to that, but certainly this meta-meta-analysis is even more useless, and at least the meta-analysis has the potential to improve and expedite our actual dialogues, and as such is worth it in the long run.  So, back to that.

I have somewhat mixed feelings on this topic, because I realize that I can't exactly go on a one-person crusade giving 2 ratings to all redundant/content-less comments.  Even 2 is supposed to be seen as marginal and 3 as good, pretty much anything short of a 4 is seen as offensive to most people and such ratings would be received quite negatively.  I don't think I would succeed in getting people to stop making those comments, but just in making them angry at me and complain or possibly even seek reprisal (in the form of rating my comments).  Not the way the rating system is supposed to work, of course, but the way it has developed.

So, I decided to enter this plea.  I realize that ironically, it will likely just be lost to the great torrent of diaries and be swept into the archives of signal and noise as well.  Still, I feel like saying it: please, only make a comment if you have something to say.  Seems intuitive, I know, but it's surprisingly absent in some situations.  You don't have to say something brilliant or insightful, it could just be funny or a minor contribution.  A few threads are exceptions to this (the mojo-drunken C&Js, threads explicitly meant to congratulate somebody for something or similar celebratory threads), but by and large threads are meant to foster dialogue and as such comments should be constructive and have content.

So, that's that.  Thank you for reading, and feel free to voice or express your agreement or disagreement through the mechanisms of comments, rating, recommending, and whatever else.

Addendum for those not catching on - The server costs are marginal. They're not my main point, just a passing point. I feel strongest about the noise-signal ratio, as highlighted by the title of my diary.

Second addendum - this is already fastly becoming my most controversial/upsetting diary, and considering this diary that's really saying something. But anyway, I'm off for the night, but I'll respond to you all in the morning. Please do read my words/entry completely before judging though, I've noticed scores of negative comments and tips from folks who openly admitted to not reading my whole entry. My point is focusing not on money but on the signal to noise ratio, and I'm just providing constructive criticism because I honestly feel that scores of "I agree" comments don't add to dialogue. Thanks.

Third addendum - Holy crap, I didn't expect this to explode. And, I'm running out of ways to distinguish the text of addendums. Anyway, it looks like we had one genuine troll and a lot of bickering besides that. I went through and rated most every comment, and will go through and give some replies, as well as one last addendum, at some point in the near future. I've got midterms at the moment though, so it'll be another day or two. I realize very few people are likely to read it at that point, but I feel like doing it a bit at least, to respond to a few misrepresentations (not from the troll but from some legit users) and such. So, stay tuned (I'll likely also point out the update in an open thread, or a C&J thread, or a new diary, or something).

Fourth addendum: Keep your pants on people, yes I dared to give some of you 2s and 3s instead of 4s, I'll give you responses soon enough, when I have a bit more free time. But the short of it is, if I didn't give you a 4, it's because I felt you misrepresented my stance one way or another, and then proceeded to respond to that straw man, often in a way that sleighted me. So, I rated your comment less-than-perfect. I'll give responses in the near future, just keep your pants on and quit making presumptions about who I am and what I think/do. GN1927, I'm looking at you - yes, I appreciate your opinion, but I'd appreciate it even more if you responded to my actual assertions. You're not the only person guilty of straw-man out there, but yeah.

Fifth addendum: I responded to all y'all.

Originally posted to Aaron on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:26 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip jar (3.37)
    I guess these are exempt from the "no content-less comments" thing too.
    •  I can't believe you got "twoed" (3.62)
      Maybe the guys who did it were just being ironic, but somehow I don't think so.

      How much will you lose with Bush's Social Security plan? Click to find out.

      by Goldfish on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:35:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Im gonna give you a 4 (none)
      to counter the mojo bomb you wrote. Other than that, I have no real opinion on the content.

      On the one hand, scrolling through Yeas and N/T's just to get to the next comment is...whatever.

      On the other, sometimes they're funny.

      I haven't noticed you before, so I have no opinion of you. But this doesn't sully that opinion either. Know what I mean?


      Insert witty and snide remarks here.

      by Stand Strong on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:57:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Right-on yea (3.60)
    Love the diary..

    Oh god I did it again.  Wasted bandwith.  Please don't punish me.  I'll reform I promise.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:24:52 PM PST

  •  Not that I read your entire diary or anything..... (2.10)
    But, did you ever think that when a diary is interesting enough to out a one-liner.. that by making any comment -- however short -- one actually has a BOOKMARK for that diary.... so they can go back and see what else has been added?  That's aside from the community support angle of such comments.  

    I can't believe you put a tip jar for this diary!

    Where are the dems heading? Not left, not right -- but FORWARD! Chaaaaaarrrrrggggge!

    by Zapata28 on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:26:30 PM PST

    •  No, I didn't (3.00)
      When I want to make a bookmark of a diary, I make a bookmark of a diary (or copy down the url into a text file).  When I want to make a comment, I make a comment.  Seem like two different devices for me.

      And as for tip jars, I'm not a fan to be honest, but they're seen as pretty standard so I figure I'll conform with that one.  Your skepticism seems unwarranted, and your attitude is just dismissive - you yourself say that didn't even read me whole diary.

    •  Sort of like a dog pissing on something (4.00)
      to make it his?  Then the rest of us have to wade through all that piss to get to content.  

      Maybe we should work on a better way to mark interesting diaries.  Organization here is pretty bad.  And the diaries fly past so fast that we get 8 diaries saying "Man! did you hear what Jeff Gannon did on Wolf Blitzer last night?"
      And interesting and thoughtful diaries that took a lot of work and beg for discussion never get noticed.  It's detracting from the quality of the site and reducing its usefulness.

    •  dude, wake up (4.00)
      You won my respect on an earlier thread.  But hell, even i've given you some zeroes on this thread.

      I'm not convinced you are a troll.  But if you aren't one, stop fucking acting like one!  You get gone FAST around here if you attack other people like you're doing.

      I give you one shot here, then I go back and zero all your comments like everybody else has.

      You have no idea what really matters in my life.

      by Nonpartisan on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:48:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Quantification (4.00)
    Has anybody ever attempted to quantify the cost to Kos of a useless comment or diary in terms of additional bandwidth cost?  That way, you could say, "Hey, your stupid diary just cost Kos another $0.25 [or whatever the cost actually is]."  Then someone else could reply, "Pointing out that stupid fact just cost Kos another $0.05."  And so on.  

    Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

    by johnny rotten on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:31:15 PM PST

  •  Bogus. (2.27)
    I cannot believe I'm reading a diary saying people shouldn't feel free to comment on a thread if they don't have something more than "I agree" to say.

    Are you always such a dick?

    Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.-Thomas Jefferson
    We are the resistance.

    by boadicea on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:33:22 PM PST

    •  Oh yeah (4.00)
      Your insulting comment just cost Kos another $0.10 (or something).  

      Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

      by johnny rotten on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:34:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's not that people shouldn't feel free (3.66)
      It's that it really is a waste and hurts the signal-noise ratio, making the community more difficult to use.  Page-downing through scores of "I agree" comments while looking for the few comments with insight grows tiring.  If that makes me a "dick", so be it, though I think the name calling is unnecessary as I'm really just trying to provide constructive criticism.
      •  What makes the community more difficult to use (3.50)
        It's that it really is a waste and hurts the signal-noise ratio, making the community more difficult to use.

         are the eternal, multi comment pissing contests. (this thread, for instance, is almost entirely pissing contests) 'I agree's' do not strike me as much of a problem.  
        I wish that those involved in pissing contests would learn to limit their exchanges to three posts each or something like that. Take it to email if that's not good enough.
        You're not nearly as much of a dick in this diary as you were in the 'sexism' diary. Hope that helps.

        "...the definition of a gaffe in Washington is somebody who tells the truth but shouldn't have." Howard Dean

        by colleen on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 05:52:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  But who are you (none)
        to be the ultimate arbiter of what comments merit being expressed and which don't?  I'm sorry, but I find that a pretty off-putting attitude to take about an online community which grows strength with the continuous addition of new users who may or may not initially conform to your commenting guidelines.

        It's one thing for Markos to gently remind folks to begin attempting to conserve bandwidth if in fact this is a technical concern; it's quite another for a user to catch attitude about having to scroll through comments which he finds useless.

        I personally had no issue scrolling through the myriad "good work n/t" comments which dotted the GannonGate diaries; nor did I have issue with the "I agree" comments which peppered Georgia10's excellent diary about the Republican perspective.  I can only hope that newer users didn't happen onto your diary only to be dismayed by your content-policing.

        Sorry, dude, you are off base here.

      •  Perhaps that is the cost (none)
        of engaging in a free flow of ideas with tens of thousands of other people...hmmm...sometimes, you are not going to find all of their ideas and comments useful.  If this is tiring, retire to your own blogs where you can choose to police content to suit your particular tastes.  Thanks for potentially scaring off some newer users with your intimidating content policing; I'm sure the progressive cause has thus benefited.
    •  Dick? (4.00)
      Chill out.

      I agree with this diary utterly.

      I was tempted to write it myself a few weeks ago.  It's nice that people want to participate, but really, having a conversation and learning are at least as important as that lovely feeling of participation people get from going 'whoo hoo!'

      Look at the RW blogs: they're almost all whoo-hoo comments.  Why?  Because those people can't think.

      Just going whoo-hoo is fine, but it's not what we're supposed to be good at.

      we gonna smash their brains in / cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em -- Linton Kwesi Johnson

      by Karl the Idiot on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:38:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm totally chilled. (4.00)
        Disbelief has that effect on me.

        Let's recap.

        This is a big site. Takes money to run. That's why blog ads are there, and subscriptions are available. I haven't seen Kos mention that finances are getting tight, so I'm going to say costs are being covered  is a reasonable assumption.

        There are several different ways to view comments. They can be sorted  or sliced and diced any number of ways to maximize the reader's convenience and speed of connection.

        One of the baselines in a large, heavily trafficed site is that you're going to get a lot of posts to manage.

        And there are all levels of readers and commenters in the 30 or 40k members here. Some of them will be a bit shy about chiming in when there are so many prolific posters, unsure about what they have to offer in the dialog.

        I can recall several posters who've expressed that concern and written very moving, intelligent, inspiring posts once they built up enough courage to wade in.

        This diary, with it's assumption that short comments that let a poster get their toe in the conversational water, so to speak, are a waste of  time, bandwidth, and money, can have the effect if not the intention of running those people off.

        I've run and am running much smaller communities, I'll grant, but the one thing I cannot abide is one poster or group of posters having the gall to tell some other group that what they have to say isn't worth the time to read. So, this diary hits a hot button for me, but I mean every word I'm typing here.

        Skip it. Scroll down. Use the tools of this site, including the hot list and several other really quite impressive programming options to maximize your use of the blog rather than insisting that others should minimize theirs.

        Troll rate me if you like, though my record will certainly show I'm no more a troll than Aaron is, but I stand by assuming dick-like behaviour comes from a dick. Hopefully, only a temporary one.

        Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.-Thomas Jefferson
        We are the resistance.

        by boadicea on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:21:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Excellent reply (none)
          Although you don't need me to tell you that.

          What you say is convincing, but it doesn't dispell my iritation at having to wade through one (100) too many hi-five or 'group hug' equivalents in long threads.  I know DailyKos comments are better managed that the totally useless comments at Eschaton, but still.

          I'll have to think a little more about this.

          we gonna smash their brains in / cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em -- Linton Kwesi Johnson

          by Karl the Idiot on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:26:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not immune to the irritation, either. (none)
            And, I'm sorry for my part in turning this into a flamefest. I'll try to restrain my vocabulary a bit more in future.

            It's a challenge to balance the signal to noise ratio, no question. I just don't think the answer is shutting newer voices down when they may be absolutely essential additions to the "choir" with a little drawing out.

            Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.-Thomas Jefferson
            We are the resistance.

            by boadicea on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:33:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  With all the fighting (none)
            The issue has got burried deep, but I'd just like to add that extraneous comments can seriously slow down Kos for users of older computers, and people with dial up service. In all the ranting about how this diary author wants to restrict people's speech, maybe we could try to remember there are people who might not be so well served by one line comments that say essentially nothing.

            How much will you lose with Bush's Social Security plan? Click to find out.

            by Goldfish on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:34:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's were some of the other programming (none)
              options for viewing come in.

              I went through various combinations before I settled on the most effective one for me.

              When there are 250-500 comments, that doesn't help much. Then again, I submit not much will at that level. And I don't think the percentage of feelgood responses is as high as all that. (Not all one liners are fluff, after all.) I'd have to see some quantitative analysis to accept that premise.

              And talk about a makework task-that would be a textbook case.

              Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.-Thomas Jefferson
              We are the resistance.

              by boadicea on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:47:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  you should come to my diaries then... (4.00)
            ... no one is agreeing, everyone is like, "what the fuck... what did he --- huh?  where am I, how did I get here...?"
      •  Heh (none)
        The single comment of mine that by far got the most 4s ever for me was basically "woohoo!".  So you can't necessarily take something like that out of context, as the context in that case was apparently appropriate.  
      •  mega-dittos! (none)
        (sorry :))
      •  My issue is (none)
        that we've already seen the power of this online community which makes tens of thousands of people living in disparate locations feel as if they are actively contributing to the progressive cause.   This feeling has tangible results with respect to the power of the grassroots, as we have seen. Is it really worth scaring "whoo-hoo" folks away merely because others who don't care for such comments have to engage in the strenuous activity of scrolling down a web page?  Sorry, but I'd say good riddance to content policing comment purists in favor of scores of new users any day!
  •  I don't like the vibe in here; it's getting nasty. (none)

    ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

    by PhillyGal on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:43:56 PM PST

    •  yea this really devolved quickly. (none)
      and since the original poster is not a troll I don't even get any good recipies.

      By the way is this hread an oxymoron.  A diary about the evils of wasted comments resulting in another mass of wasyed space.  Just wondering if oxymoron is the correct word.

      We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

      by delver rootnose on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:06:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oxymoronic? I could be nasty, and say (none)
        it's half right ;)

        ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

        by PhillyGal on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:10:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  that was funny. But I do think.. (none)
          This whole diary needs one big time out.  You know a minute in the corner of the blogsphere for every zero rating.  Of course if the blogsphere is a sphere then where is the corner.

          We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

          by delver rootnose on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:17:11 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  LOL; Right, there is no corner! (none)

            ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

            by PhillyGal on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:23:44 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  It wasn't a bad diary (3.66)
            Though I totally disagree. I like the one liner and a really brilliant one can even earn a 4 from me if its that good. It's sad though to see this ridiculous sniping and I wish the whole back and forth would just get troll rated out of this discussion.

            First, humor is essential here because if we're not laughing we're just all going to freak out about how most Americans are too stupid to see how truly evil Bush and Co. really are. Also, many of us aren't wonks or poli sci majors so we participate through comic relief.
            Second, I would think many of us, short of time, sometimes use the amount of comments to help us choose the most interesting diaries to jump into, along with titles and author name and even possibly word count.
            Third, I actually think what you suggest would be a sort of watering down of the meaning of ratings in that people would then be using 4s to simply suggest agreement because they weren't "allowed" to simply say yes, and then maybe even throw in a quip, one-liner or small addendum that they would not do otherwise lest they be met with swift retribution in the form of 2s and possibly even 1s or 0s. 4s would become just some indicator of agreement instead of a reward for quality.

            I am amazed the number of 4s a one liner that just says "Fuck Bush" can get versus a mutiple paragraph contribution. I just don't think this would actually solve the problem.

            •  I don't disagree with what you say.. (none)
              The time out comment was not because I thought the diary was bad I just think the flame war it inspired has gotten out of control.

              it is rather funny that in a diary about signal to noise ratio we get the noise of a flame war.

              I am little bored with 'meta' navel gazing diaries but nothing deserves the vitrol expressed in this one.

              We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

              by delver rootnose on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:39:48 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Man, if this diary (none)
    Didn't just open Pandora's Box or something.

    I thought it was a reasonable topic to adress, but it seems some people can't handle criticism. Geez, the guy's got a right to say what he thinks with out being called a dick, and told to look at "the spot on the wall."

    How much will you lose with Bush's Social Security plan? Click to find out.

    by Goldfish on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:48:07 PM PST

  •  No offense (none)
    but just reading through the comments, this one crashed and burned before it got off the ground. Perhaps you want to delete and perhaps add this to the Open Threads

    Insert witty and snide remarks here.

    by Stand Strong on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:48:20 PM PST

    •  I say Kill it (none)
      Totally delete it man and save yourself the Mojo. Just trying to be helpful, yet unbiased.

      Insert witty and snide remarks here.

      by Stand Strong on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:49:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  NO! (none)
      I would agree with you, accept deleting it would remove the zeros Zapata28 so rightfully earned. What he said needs to be preserved, not covered up.

      How much will you lose with Bush's Social Security plan? Click to find out.

      by Goldfish on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:50:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps (none)
        On the one hand, I've seen Zapata make some very good comments. On the other hand, Aaron is already getting mojo bombed here.

        He shold save himself, maybe reword the diary, give it a day, adn republish it with a differetn angle.

        I almost diaired today about ppl not checking the recents list. Someone diaried what I had diaried earlier in the day.

        I cold bitch about rules and stuff happens.

        Insert witty and snide remarks here.

        by Stand Strong on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:52:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't care if the diarist (none)
          Personally told Zapata to die in a car crash. That doesn't justify making a joke about autism. Two wrongs don't make a right, and what this diary author did wasn't even that wrong to begin with. Zapata needs to learn he can't just go around insulting people in the most offensive ways he can think of, and then walk away from it.

          How much will you lose with Bush's Social Security plan? Click to find out.

          by Goldfish on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:02:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I agree! <EOM> (4.00)
    P.S. ditto!
  •  I'm sorry (4.00)
    But this thing is just hilarious. I have never seen a discussion anywhere, on any forum degenerate into a full blown flame war as fast as this one did. And the most hilarious part is, the diary wasn't that inflammatory. It was well thought out, well reasoned, and respectful to the people who might disagree with it.

    I am laughing so hard right now, because this is so ridiculous. I mean, it is truly one of the
    most amazing thing's I've ever seen. Kossers can debate abortion, gun control, the death penalty, and picks for President in 2008 and any other controversial issue you can name with out half as much fire as is being thrown here.

    Thanks for posting this diary. Sometimes it's good to see how ridiculous we can all be, and this diary certainly does that in spades.

    How much will you lose with Bush's Social Security plan? Click to find out.

    by Goldfish on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:09:13 PM PST

  •  Perhaps Aaron ought to rename this to... (4.00)

    One night only. A Raw, no holds barred throwdown. See the gloves come off and the zeroes go flying.

    On second though, that won't fit.

    Insert witty and snide remarks here.

    by Stand Strong on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:10:25 PM PST

  •  I Feel (3.83)
    I feel dumber, having read this diary.  I understand the intent, but honestly, this is not what I come to the Daily Kos for.  One person's signal is another person's noise.  Feel free to marginalize whom you want.

    Jonestown, U.S.A.: The Rapture is a metaphor for collective suicide.

    by bink on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:11:48 PM PST

  •  Getting a little contentious here (3.80)
    Regarding the diary itself without falling into name calling:

    1.  I understand where Aaron is coming from.  It can get frustrating when I am reading an intersting diary with significant comments being posted and all of a sudden it degenerates into a lot of yeahs, amens, I agree without any comments.
    Humorous one liners I don't have a problem with.

    2>  At the same time, I usually only see one or two attached to a specific comment, so it isn't too bad.

    1.  What I do find more frustrating is the little name calling cat-fights that develop and end up going totally off point, and some of these can go on for quite a while.

    2.  However, we just had a diary about free speech and I think we need to respect that.

    3.  So, in summation, although I don't think we should try to arbitrarily limit comments, I think as a matter of respect to other members, specially those that don't necessarily have a lot of time to scan through diaries and are looking at nuggets that have meaning, we try to just take what the diarist is saying when we post comments.

    Okay Goldfish and Zapata, the floor is yours again.

    Bush, so incompetent, he can't even do the wrong things right.

    by JAPA21 on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:12:00 PM PST

    •  After I posted (3.00)
      I read the comments posted while I was writing that one.  This is one of those diaries that belongs in the "recommend for a laugh" category that I alluded to on an earlier diary about democrats going extinct.

      Bush, so incompetent, he can't even do the wrong things right.

      by JAPA21 on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:14:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Recommended! (3.25)
    Because train-wrecks like this come around once in a life time.

    How much will you lose with Bush's Social Security plan? Click to find out.

    by Goldfish on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:28:12 PM PST

  •  Two thoughts. (3.50)
    First, personally I think most meta-diaries like this are a waste of time, worse than short comments.

    Second, there are many levels of communication going on here, and thousands of people. Many very short comments may not appear to have much content just because you don't understand certain contexts. People like me who check in here many times on the average day notice all kinds of things. For example, a few days ago I made a comment that, in retrospect, was too harsh. I tried to be civil and patch it up. Tonight I noticed that this other person gave me a 4 for one of my minor comments. I take that as a courtesy, a little peace offering. So when I next see a post of his, I may just add a short sign of agreement. Aaron, of course you could set up an austere and pure blog of your own by whatever rules you want. But for what it's worth, I think this system here works remarkably well. (Just so long as I force myself to skip most of the abortion debates, etc.)

  •  I'm new to Kos (4.00)
    and more and more frequently find myself beginning a comment, zipping through a few sentences and then reading it to figure out what I was trying to say.  Then I realize I don't have anything substantial to contribute and killing it.

    I find the "Right on" comments annoying because I am looking for dialogue.  I've ditched many a scan through comments because I'd been scrolling and paging for minutes without finding a decent conversation.

    I like clever comebacks, both reading and writing them.  They might not be dialogue, but they season the stew better than bland encoouragements.

    When I join a diary late and people have already made the points I was going to, I just put my rating in their tip jar. It is faster and more efficient and I can leave my ego at the door.

    •  You're new? Nice to meet you (none)
      Sorry man, you caught us at a really bad time. Stuff like this is not the norm. I hope we meet again under better circumstances :-)

      How much will you lose with Bush's Social Security plan? Click to find out.

      by Goldfish on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 08:19:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't take it personally, good grief! (4.00)
        Although I was surprised about the rather personal flamewar.  On most forums, someone would have suggested they take it "off list" and use private emails.

        I like the rating system even if some use it for troll rating.  I check my ratings to see if anyone thought I had anything worthwhile to say.  It is easy to get full of oneself and happily ramble endlessly.

        Thanks for the welcome.

        •  Most fourms are heavier on moderation (3.50)
          Here we do most of it by mojo. I'm really as shocked as you are, as this is the fisrt time I've ever gotten into this sort of grudge match with someone. Of course it's a pretty one sided grudge match, since only one of us has a a grudge.

          I like the rating system too, but the thing that botheres me about it is how no one uses "threes." However, it is still a great way to give feed back, and let people know they're on the right track.

          How much will you lose with Bush's Social Security plan? Click to find out.

          by Goldfish on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 02:33:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I disagree (none)
    > They add nothing new to the discussion, they're inherently redundant and just state the obvious.

    my agreement with something is never obvious.  And sometimes a single word or so besides "good" or "excellent" (or "marginal") is required.

    otoh... it's funny what sort of fires break out in the oddest places... I mean, it is a reasonable request you make (I just decline to cooperate)  cheers.

    •  To me, it's like a rating (3.33)
      You know how some people vigorously defend the hierarchy of 3s versus 4s? Well, for me, sometimes a 4 doesn't really demonstrate my enthusiasm for a comment. Anyone can just press the little rating button and be done with it. But it's a real show of appreciation if someone also posts a comment like, "Great post," "Hilarious!," etc.

      Or someone might want to show their support for the comment in a more substantial way than a 4 can. If someone posts a comment so good that it obviates my need to say anything further, than I might post an n/t comment that basically says, "Yeah, what he/she said!" It shows more than one person feels that way, and that it's a great comment.

      (According to Aaron, I assume we should also eliminate half of the comments on any of pastodrdan's "brothers and sisters" diaries, because many people post variations of "amen." If you don't have any of your own kewl, witty statements to add, don't waste our time with that respectful "amen" crap!)

      "I told them on Inauguration Day. I said look into my eyes: no new enhancements." - President Johnny Gentle (Famous Crooner)

      by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:20:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ridiculous! (3.33)
    Is not dailykos a public forum?
    Does it not invite subscibers to register for free so that they can post to dailykos?
    Wouldn't you think that's an invitation to John Q. Surfer to engage in an open community that supports free speech?


    The Thread Police want to unravel the mindless warpings and woofings of the less articulate.

    G I V E  M E  A  B R E A K

    If the KosMeister feels supporting "it goes without saying" posts that get said anyway is becoming questionably expensive, maybe he should charge for access to his blog.  However, there's no guarantee that people whose pockets are flush possess minds filled with valuable thoughts every minute of every day.

    As for me, I think KosMeister should charge for typos.  Gawd knows how much bandwidth they waste!  (My bill would be astronomical!)  

    (Imagine Teletubbies w/ Pretzelhead Bush) Stay the course -- stick with inbreeding.

    by Limelite on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 05:13:47 PM PST

  •  Let's do a cost-benefit analysis (3.50)
    If this diary is successful in curbing the "agreed" comments, how long will it take to amortize the bandwidth and animosity that it caused?

    There are times when I want to thank someone for posting an article that I find exceptionally interesting, and I like to post something brief, even if it's not informative, in addition to the tip & recommendation. If there are already many replies, then I figure the original writer won't see it anyway, so I don't.

  •  "I agree" (3.66)
    Pretty much with everything you said.

    People getting offended by less-than-4 ratings rather pisses me off. I gave someone a 2 once and they found one of my comments and started an argument with me about why. The post in question wasn't an "I agree" it was an "I disagree" but with a similar lack of any content. They seemed to think I gave them the 2 because I didn't like their point of view, but I give 3s and 4s to people I disagree with if they make a good argument that forwards the discussion. Noone has ever called me out on a 3 (I give quite a lot of them) but I've seen it happen to other people. As I have said elsewhere, I try to reserve the 4s for the really good stuff... but then some days I'm just in an agreeable mood and give LOTS of 4s. No, it's not consistant. So sue me ;)

  •  Oh, come on (3.00)
    Part of the issue is that there are tons of new users who need time to acclimate themselves to the community mores of Kos.  The commenting style here is different than that of other blogs.  Who are you to demand that users conform their comments to suit your tastes?  

    Give folks a break.  Is it not better to have some degree of tolerance for those who might not comment/diary precisely as you expect and gently encourage them to reform their style than to run off newer users with nasty put-downs of what you deem "useless comment[ing]"?  

    I'd much prefer having to scroll through one-line and "I agree" comments than happening upon diaries slamming those who step outside of a pristine commenting universe.  As Kos grows bigger, there will be more commenters who do not subscribe to your commenting mores, at least at first.  So freaking what?  One would think that your satisfaction with the increasing popularity and size of kos would eclipse your annoyance with certain types of comments.  Back off.

    •  Aaron, a "2"... (none)
      ...I'd love to hear an explanation of why this particular comment is marginal, aside from my vigorous disagreement with some of the opinions stated in your diary.  I pretty much never challenge other commenters for ratings, but you are totally off base here, both in the sentiments expressed in your diary and the retaliatory rating you gave me after I took the time to write out my opposing opinion rather than merely depositing a "2" into your tip jar.  Alas, rather than challenging me with a comment in response, I'm sure I'll merely receive another "2"...
  •  Yeah (none)
    and it really pisses me off when all those people say "Amen" in church.  Wish we could downrate them, as they add nothing to the content.
  •  While I don't have much of an opinion (none)
    on the diary topic itself....

    I must say the "discussion" that ensued has got to be one of the most mindblowingly funny things I've ever read on Kos.

    Good looooooooooord!  LOL!

    Orwell is spinning in his grave

    by tlh lib on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 01:19:56 PM PST

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