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From the Des Moines Register:

A national group of Christian lawyers is appealing to church leaders to join them in lobbying against the bankruptcy reform bill introduced by Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Ia.

The lawyers say the legislation runs contrary to the forgiveness of debt and charity required by the Bible.

"As Christian attorneys, we strongly believe that it was never God's intention to create a society where indebtedness was a crime or a badge of dishonor," Christian members of the National Association of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys wrote in a letter sent Feb. 26 to hundreds of church leaders across the nation.

More:

The bill, which is receiving Senate debate, would make it harder for most people to receive full debt cancellation under Chapter 7 of the bankruptcy laws. More people would have to repay at least part of their debt, based on income.

The lawyers note that in the Old Testament, God did not outlaw borrowing and lending, but provided that loans would become discharged every seven years.

In response, Grassley said Congress could not be bound by biblical mandates because "the Constitution does not provide for a theocracy."

"I can't listen to Christian lawyers because I would be imposing the Bible on a diverse population," Grassley said. "I'll bet those lawyers wouldn't want us to impose the principles of forgiving debt every seven years. If that were the law, nobody would loan them money."

Darn that pesky Bible! Wouldn't want religion to get in the way of corporate giants collecting 29.5% interest, now would we?

Update [2005-3-4 22:38:44 by pastordan]: Just to add to the fun: from a Voice of America commentary on faith-based pork:

The Reverend Land notes President Bush has always said his faith will govern his actions. That is not so different from the attitude of past presidents. “The president is not departing from what has been the historical practice of Americans and their leaders having religion play an important part in their speeches, public policy and in their public events. It is not a violation of separation of church and state unless it were to be required by the state, which of course it is not.”

However, the Reverend Gaddy thinks President Bush goes further than his predecessors. “He uses religious language to advance public policy. That shuts down the debate that is so important in a democracy by suggesting that if this position is one endorsed by religion itself, then this is an issue you should not question.”

The Reverend Gaddy warns this kind of rhetoric could lead to further entanglement of church and state, with injury to both. But the Reverend Land contends that a president's moral values -- often grounded in religious belief -- inevitably tie to his public policies. No doubt religious leaders like the Reverends Land and Gaddy will continue their debate as President Bush recently re-affirmed his commitment to the initiative, saying "faith can move mountains."

Originally posted to pastordan on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:05 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Forgive the brevity. (3.97)
    It really is rich. Or at least I thought so.

    The UCC: to believe is to care, to care is to do. Also, they have cookies.

    by pastordan on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 06:59:30 PM PST

    •  No shit (4.00)
      We really couldn't have any group impose their Judeo-Christian religious beliefs on the rest of us.

      I was wondering when someone was going to mention the fact that debt forgiveness is in the Old Testament.  Must have been one of the optional passages

      •  It's all optional (4.00)
        except for sex and words that might be used to desvribe sex. Wingnut morality never seems to apply anywhere else.
      •  Honestly (4.00)
        This is an OPPORTUNITY, isn't it?  This isn't the first religious group to remark on the vast gulf between Christian beliefs and Bush's policies.  

        First it's cutting programs for the poor in the new budget, now it's a bill making it harder to get rid of debt.  Where are his real values?    

        All that fretting after the election about religion and values and the Democrats' problem with them, and here is an opportunity to talk faith and values handed to us on a silver platter! If the Democrats just shuffle their feet and shrug and ignore this angle on it, well, I wouldn't be surprised.. but what a damned shame.

        •  We know he's not a regular churchgoer (4.00)
          but I believe the Big Pretzel (or Pol Pot, as I prefer to think of him since the Wead tapes surfaced) identifies himself as a Methodist. Since his actions don't often jibe with his professed belief system, I guess that makes him a Methodist actor.
          •  I am a Methodist, and, like other Methodists, (4.00)
            I consider him a poseur. I think he joined the church because Laura was a Methodist and has never bothered to correct the situation. I may belong to a more liberal congregation, but I've been a Methodist all my life and I've never heard of born agains in the Methodist Church.

            It's all sounded like he made it up as he went along, if you know what I mean. He not only gives us Americans and us Texans (and I don't consider him a real Texan, either) a bad name, but us Methodists one too! And that's only the beginning of the list of gripes I have against him.

            •  He's not a "real Texan" (4.00)
              For certain definitions of "real Texan", at least.

              Not to mention: his accent is still fake. See: the "Secret Tapes".

              The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

              by Shapeshifter on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 12:58:33 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  there was an online petition (none)
              last fall signed by hunners of Methodist clergy & laypersons asking that bushie be kicked out of the Methodist church for his many actions contrary to the book of discipline (I think that's what it's called). Unfortuntately, it carried no weight & the bishop in that part of the country didn't act on it.  

              Our progress as a nation can be no swifter than our progress in education. The human mind is our fundamental resource. - John F. Kennedy

              by jung at heart on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 06:37:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  You are right (none)
              During the 70s, I even left the Methodist Church because I had become more closely aligned with the Jimmy Carter type of Evangelical Christianity.
              But since the Right wing nuts took over the Evangelical movement that once was quite liberal in the 60s and 70s and made it all about what NOT to do ....I left in the late 80s.

              But the Methodist church is not considered an Evangelical church but is referred to by Evangelicals as more Mainline.

              I now embrace the values of the Methodist Church which is the total opposite of Bush religion from what I have seen.

              We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

              by wishingwell on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:04:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It was Jesus Freaks then, hippies...no more! (none)
                I discuss how the Right Hijacked the Evangelical movement. The Evangelicals of the 1960s and 70s were often consisted of what was then term, hippies. They advocated informal worship and welcomed we college kids wearing jeans and playing guitars and gospel rock.  We were considered, outcasts and Jesus Freaks. But conservative, we were not!!
                That movement has been hijacked by the right who would have felt out of place in the OLD Evangelical churches. I grieve for the demise of the Jesus movement, a gospel once embraced by Evangelicals and now discarded. The Jesus movement was all about helping those less fortunate and focused on the ministry of Jesus and a personal relationship with God guiding us to help others.

                http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/3/11565/11077

                We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

                by wishingwell on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:10:16 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  God bless you !!! (none)
              As I keep telling people, "show me where New Haven Texas is" and then I will concede that he is from Texas.

              Those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither. (Paraphrasing B. Franklin)

              by p a roberson on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 03:41:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Speaking of Pol Pot (none)
            take a look at my "Marijuana President" graphic I made a couple of days ago, it's the second image down in "The Image Bank" link in my signature. I'm working on getting it hosted online (I don't like Photobucket, they f'd up one of my animations) and I'll be posting it online soon.

            I have a no-text blank of the same image I'm going to be posting as soon as I can too, to see if we can get more captions for it. Want to caption it? Id' be interested in your creativity.

            •  love the graphic... (none)
              I'd change the second "now" to "finally" to kep it from being redundant and give it a little more punch.... otherwise, perfect! kudos!!
            •  New caption (none)
              "This is what happens when you inhale."
              •  Thanks, I'll add the new caption tomorrow (none)
                I'm making a bunch of these (several versions of captions with the same graphic), I'm thinking of offering them as posters, screen savers, bumper stickers, t-shirts, etc.

                I'll be honest, right now I am hoping to turn this graphic into a money-making enterprise (I'm broke) and doing that with several others, but I can offer free screensavers for now.

                I have to look into how to get most of this stuff made. The screen savers I can make whenever the request comes in for anyone who wants one (got one on my desktop, looks pretty good).

                Does anyone have any knowledge about who offers poster and bumper stick printing, t-shirt screen printing or decals, and other stuff like that? Oh yeah, buttons, gotta have buttons. LOL

                I got my research cut out for me. I never did any printing of my graphics before.

                Thanks for the new caption OMIR, I think it's awesome.

      •  It's in the clean pages (none)
        You know, the ones that never get read, along with the passages about not wearing mixed fabric clothing or not eating pork or shellfish. (I'd do okay with the shellfish restriction, but you can take away my applewood-smoked bacon when you pry it out of my cold, dead, artery-clogged fingers...)

        "It's an unnerving thought that we may be the living universe's supreme achievement and its worst nightmare simultaneously." -- Bill Bryson

        by Cali Scribe on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 12:35:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's hilarious, (4.00)
      but at the same time it makes me want to beat myself over the head with a four-day-old tuna.

      Sigh.

    •  Ahhhh, the irony of it all (4.00)
      What goes around, come around
    •  heh. (4.00)
      hey, look, it's my senator. good grief, if you can't have good ones, at least you can have amusing ones.

      Join the battle against cosmic evil!

      by gzt on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:35:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  no wyfp tonight, pd? n/t (none)

      Our progress as a nation can be no swifter than our progress in education. The human mind is our fundamental resource. - John F. Kennedy

      by jung at heart on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:28:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's Saturday night! (none)

        The UCC: to believe is to care, to care is to do. Also, they have cookies.

        by pastordan on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:34:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  OK, thanks n/t (none)

          Our progress as a nation can be no swifter than our progress in education. The human mind is our fundamental resource. - John F. Kennedy

          by jung at heart on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:42:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And Wednesday is....<drumroll> (none)
            ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN DAY!!!

            (Thank you, Mickey Mouse.)

            P.S. I was born on the day the MM Club debuted on TV.

            "It's so nice to be insane, noone asks you to explain."

            by homogenius on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 09:09:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  hg, was there a theme for each day (none)
              of the week? let us know when your b-day arrives so we can celebrate with you. :)

              Our progress as a nation can be no swifter than our progress in education. The human mind is our fundamental resource. - John F. Kennedy

              by jung at heart on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 06:31:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes there was. (none)
                I wish I could remember them all, and I'm sure a little research would turn them up, but I'm about to date myself here:

                Today is Tuesday, you know what that means,
                We're gonna have a special guest
                So get out the broom, and sweep the place clean,
                Dust off the mat so the welcome can be seen
                Roll out the carpet, strike up the band,
                And give out with a hip-hooray (hip-hooray!)
                Wiggle yours ears like good Mouseketeers,
                We're gonna have a special guest today,
                'Cause Tuesday is Guest Star Day!

                As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

                by sidnora on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 07:09:03 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  oh my gosh, I remember that - lol - thanks n/t (none)

                  Our progress as a nation can be no swifter than our progress in education. The human mind is our fundamental resource. - John F. Kennedy

                  by jung at heart on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 10:15:52 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You are most welcome!:^) (none)
                    After an unsuccessful search of both my memory and the Lurking Husband's, I gave up and did a search:

                    Monday:Fun with Music Day
                    Thursday:Circus Day
                    Friday:Talent Round-up Day

                    Anything-Can-Happen Day was my favorite, tho.

                    As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

                    by sidnora on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 10:57:05 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  thank you, sidnora (none)
                      I only remember the special guest & talent round-up.  must have been favorites? thank you for your research. I keep forgetting most things can be found on the net. thanks for the trip down memory lane. :D

                      Our progress as a nation can be no swifter than our progress in education. The human mind is our fundamental resource. - John F. Kennedy

                      by jung at heart on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 02:04:30 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  O/T Dear Father Dan, (none)
          Thank God you're here-it's usually so hard to find a Catholic priest when you need one...

          Is heavy petting (with clothes) a mortal or a venal sin? What if it is done in the back seat of an automobile (parked), does that change things?

          Also, does same-sex heavy-petting carry a heavier penalty if you are both sitting (say in a back seat, for instance) since technically, this means neither boy is laying with the other as with a woman?

          Finally, if I proceed, what kind of penance can I expect to be given at confession?

          Please advise.

          •  I'm not a Roman Catholic priest (none)
              but I pretended to be one years ago so I wouldn't have to pay a bridge toll.  So here goes -- blogosphere confession.

              On your first offense -- How heavy??  Was there touching? of naked flesh?   5 Hail Mary's

              Well you know son same sex petting is unatural so I've got to double the penalty  10 Hail Mary's
                Blaheum Blaheum Blaheum Go in Peace.

            "My will is easy to decide, for I have nothing to divide" Joe Hill

            by slick riddles on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 09:56:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hey "Father" (none)
              you better confess your bridge-toll thievery before you grant absolution to others!

              Render unto Ceasar those bridge tolls.

              •  It 's not necessary my son (4.00)
                   Church doctrine is actually that the sinful state of the priest has no effect on the efficacy of the sacraments he performs.  I assume the same would go for pretent priests.

                "My will is easy to decide, for I have nothing to divide" Joe Hill

                by slick riddles on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 10:10:05 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's true! (none)
                  It was the subject of much debate, especially in my field (medieval stuff). at least the part about the priest's sinful state being irrelevant. But I think that if someone was only posing as a priest, whatever they do has no validity. It has something to do with the priest being consecrated, etc. (God twanged him with the Magic Twanger, etc.) If you're not consecrated, it doesn't count.

                  "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." -Karl Marx

                  by Lainie on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 11:10:20 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  your jesuitical casuistry (none)
                      has cut me to the quick.  Egads nothing i do has any validity.  :)

                     And you seem suprised that I would speak the truth.

                    "My will is easy to decide, for I have nothing to divide" Joe Hill

                    by slick riddles on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:09:14 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  And it's also (none)
                    in the Episcopal Articles of Religion, located in the back pages of the Book of Common Prayer (took a look during a rare boring sermon one Sunday).

                    Then again, what if you're a mail order minister (Universal Life Church)?

                    "It's an unnerving thought that we may be the living universe's supreme achievement and its worst nightmare simultaneously." -- Bill Bryson

                    by Cali Scribe on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 12:27:57 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  As well (none)
                  The beauty of it was that there was no thievery.
                  I pulled up to the booth and told the toll taker, an older irish guy that I was a priest and I had to go perform Last Rites.  I was wearing my regular hippie clothes and he just jumped into action steering thru the automatic lane.  He even stopped the other traffic for me.

                "My will is easy to decide, for I have nothing to divide" Joe Hill

                by slick riddles on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 10:14:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  I love your signature Pastor Dan (none)
          And I salute the United Church of Christ! I loved their commercial which many stations yanked, it was wonderful and touched my heart each time I saw it.

          I recently join an Anglican church and we also like food, and we have cookies and goodies, and coffee after each service. We joke that we also have wine.
          My husband is quite used to that growing up Catholic but it is all new to me having grown up Methodist.  LOL!!

          We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

          by wishingwell on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:14:49 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The sig line (none)
            comes from a diary I did back in December on the whole UCC/God is Still Speaking kerfuffle. I mentioned in passing that I hoped people would enjoy the diary, because I was risking my Christmas cookies to write it.

            The consensus was that I needed to get the heck off the computer to save the cookies.

            The UCC: to believe is to care, to care is to do. Also, they have cookies.

            by pastordan on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:57:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Episcopal = Catholic Lite (none)
            All the tradition, half the guilt...

            Not original; I've heard a couple of different comics use it (Michael Meehan during a club gig, Robin Williams at the Herb Caen memorial), but not sure who originated it.

            One joke around our parish is that we had to institute sign-ups for potlucks, otherwise everyone would bring wine and no one would bring main dishes or dessert. :)

            "It's an unnerving thought that we may be the living universe's supreme achievement and its worst nightmare simultaneously." -- Bill Bryson

            by Cali Scribe on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 12:31:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  PD (none)
    this should be in Carnacki's happy stories!

    Wake up to find out that you are disguised as a squirrel -- with apologies to R. Hunter

    by Frankenoid on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:04:07 PM PST

  •  Hit them on the head with this one. (4.00)
    Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....
  •  Shorter Charles Grassley: (4.00)
    "We only worry about pleasing Christians during election season."

    "Our slogan shall be a rotten candidate for a rotten borough." -Edmund Blackadder, from Blackadder III

    by WussGawd on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:06:24 PM PST

    •  And then (4.00)
      only on certain issues, if we feel like it.  Otherwise, pfft.
    •  Shorter Charles Grassley: (4.00)
      We only worry about pleasing Christofascists in election years.

      Actual Christians need never apply.

      The sad thing is, Grassley campaigns here as just a plain-spoken farmer like all y'all. His last campaign commercials had him tooling around on a tractor mower.

      I'm glad Patrick Leahy is also looking out for Sibel Edmonds. That takes away the one guilty pang I might otherwise have for doing my utmost to shoo him out of Congress.

      Since we no longer have taboos, we have Abus.

      by oldjohnbrown on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:13:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Too funny! Grassley not wanting to impose bible (4.00)
    I keep reading that comment "I would be imposing the Bible on a diverse population" and laughing.

    I guess it depends on your version of the Bible! ;)
  •  big surprise (4.00)
    they ride the Christian coattails into office and then disown them when they act like real Christians are supposed to.

    How old would you be if you didn't know how old you were?

    by getmeoutofdixie on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:10:55 PM PST

  •  Blessed are the hypocrites (4.00)
    for they shall inherit a majority rule.

    We don't go out and hire journalists and propagandize and lie and put people on payroll so that they'll say what you want. - Donald Rumsfeld

    by The past is over on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:11:15 PM PST

    •  <applause> (none)
      GREAT line.  I may steal that for a signature.

      We should really write a new set of beatitudes for today's political leaders.

      Blessed are the holders of stock options, for their will shall be done.

  •  Fool (4.00)
    If that were the law, nobody would loan them money.

    See, even with the current bankruptcy laws, credit cards DO continue to loan money.  So what's the problem?  

    Apparently, credit card companies do not want to take responsibility for their decisions.  They want to have their cake and eat it too.  So instead of living with the predictible consequences of loaning to high risk customers, the credit card companies want to overhaul the law so that they can keep these customers in perpetual indebtedness.  The bankruptcy "reform" bill is actually the Credit Card Irresponsibility Act.  

    Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

    by johnny rotten on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:18:21 PM PST

    •  Yep (none)
      Sounds like their plan. I wrote a diary the other day about the plight of an artist friend of mine. http://liberalated-woman.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/4/04143/58726

      He has no steady income, sometimes has only pennies in the bank, and is not reality-based around finances. He also has one bankruptcy on his record (about 3 years at the time).

      Some unscrupulous company gave him a card, and over two years, raised his limit to 10K. They started out at an unbelievable 6% interest rate, then when he had charged it up to 10K (always making his payment on time), they raised the rate to the sky.

      Guess what? He defaulted.

      9/11 was a faith-based initiative

      by Liberalated Woman on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:34:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  christian lawyers... (4.00)
    that is a concept to ponder. kinda like vegetarian barracuda.

    i'm an agnostic, i'd be an atheist if it weren't for mozart

    by rasbobbo on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:19:46 PM PST

  •  OK, here's what we do (4.00)
    Every time Grassley (or any of the other right-wankers) proposes any legislation restricting abortion rights because it's immoral, or relegating homosexuals to second-class citizenship because God said to, or trying to censor the internets (cable TV, or even broadcast TV for that matter) because it's the godly thing to do, we spam his or her arse with this quote:

    In response, Grassley said Congress could not be bound by biblical mandates because "the Constitution does not provide for a theocracy."

    "I can't listen to Christian lawyers because I would be imposing the Bible on a diverse population," Grassley said. "I'll bet those lawyers wouldn't want us to impose the principles of forgiving debt every seven years. If that were the law, nobody would loan them money."

    That goes double for any anarcho-conservacon who goes running off his/her mouth about how America is a "Christian" nation, founded by Christians, and run on Christian principles.

    They can either have their Christian nation (in which case, I'm damn well going to insist that they live up to all of the requirements, not just the ones they happen to like), or we're prohibited from having anything like it. Just like the Framers intended, bless their deistic little hearts.

    Michael
    "Jedoch der schrecklichste der Schrecken
    Das ist der Mensch in seinem Wahn" -- J. W. von Goethe

    by musing85 on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:19:49 PM PST

    •  We should blast fax it ! (4.00)
      And forward it to every Rightwing Christian organization in America.  Just to remind them that the Republican Party really is the party on their side. :-)

      One other thought: A diverse group of liberal religious organizations should tag onto the law suit by filing an amicus brief. That way, it would have the 'required' multicultural backing those damn Republicans are always demanding these days. :-)

      The Book of Revelations is not a foreign policy manual.

      by Dont Just Stand There on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:32:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I love this ... (4.00)
      ...(and not just because you've adopted my "rightwankers" neologism).

      Living up to all their requirements means getting rid of all the lady pastors out there, yes? Living up to all their requirements means giving all their stuff to the poor and preaching on street corners, right?

      •  I only steal from the best! (4.00)
        Living up to all their requirements means getting rid of all the lady pastors out there, yes? Living up to all their requirements means giving all their stuff to the poor and preaching on street corners, right?

        We may be able to negotiate on the first one. The second one is absolutely a requirement. A few others:


        • Nobody can sell clothing made from blended fabrics (Leviticus 19:19)

        • Nobody can have mixed vegetable gardens (idem)

        • Horoscopes will be dropped from all U.S. newspapers. Jeanne Dixon, Dionne Warwick and her psychic friends, and everybody like them or who has ever used their services will either be imprisoned or deported. (Leviticus 19:26, 31)

        • Tattoo parlors will be banned (Leviticus 19:28)

        • Men will no longer be permitted to shave (Leviticus 19:27)--or at least not with razor blades (I understand there's a bit of Talmudic jiujitsu that allows for electric shavers).

        • Lending money at interest will be prohibited. (Exodus 22:27)

        • The National Football League will either have to require all players to wear gloves and full-body clothing, or it will be dissolved. And no high-school or college pigskin, either. Soccer is fine. (Leviticus 11:7-8) Oh, and no more leather seats in the SUVs, either.

        • Televangelism, street preaching/proselytizing, "witnessing" and similar forms of behavior will be severely punished. (Matthew 6:5-7)

        • Saturn and Mercury will have to change their brand names or go out of business; so will M&M Mars, for that matter. And names like "Thor," "Diana," or "Athena" will no longer be allowed. (Exodus 23:13)

        Michael
        "Jedoch der schrecklichste der Schrecken
        Das ist der Mensch in seinem Wahn" -- J. W. von Goethe

        by musing85 on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 11:00:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly! (none)
      That is the first thought that ran through my mind when I read it.  Throw it back in their faces!!!
  •  "And Forgive us Our Debts as we (4.00)
    forgive our debtors." One translation of the Lord's Prayer verse which (?) may relate to the 7 year debt forgiveness.

    That would be the prayer taught by CHRIST.

    Yes it is rich to force the Republicans to keep the Bible out of government.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:20:33 PM PST

    •  Not just one translation (4.00)
      That's the most accurate translation.

      It is not in the least bit accidental that Jesus used economic parables, economic language, and economic metaphors. The whole language of the Bible follows that line. Think about what redemption is: You redeem cans. You redeem coupons. In the ancient world, you redeemed slaves—that is, you purchased their freedom.

      Economics is not gravity. It is a social ethic that determines who gets how much of what under which circumstances. Biblical law obsesses over debt, ownership and interest for the same reason that salvation is described with the baldly economic term "redemption." Because these things matters in real terms, and they are of primary concern to the Judaeo-Christian God.

      To the extent that a society has poor, it is not doing God's will. Pass it on.

      Since we no longer have taboos, we have Abus.

      by oldjohnbrown on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:03:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Keep your eyes peeled. (4.00)
        My former UCC polity teacher, John Gunneman, is working on a book discussing the economic ideas behind much of the language in the New Testament. It's sure to be dynamite stuff.

        The UCC: to believe is to care, to care is to do. Also, they have cookies.

        by pastordan on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:21:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  covenant (none)
        As I understand it, scholars argue that the central concept of covenant itself derives from models of business contracts.

        FWIW.  

        •  Yes! (none)
          A covenant is a contract between two parties of unequal power.

          This is the most absolutely pathetic thing about the religious right: They completely ignore Biblical economics, even though the language of every prophet from Moses to Jeremiah to Jesus was absolutely saturated with economic language.

          From the height of the wrathful thunder spoken through Ezekiel (16:49-50): "This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it."

          Is this where I mention that the US is home to the world's largest volcano?

          Since we no longer have taboos, we have Abus.

          by oldjohnbrown on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:44:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  You forgot Green Stamps! n/t (none)

        Support the troops-- 'cause Bush sure doesn't.

        by Sandia Blanca on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:33:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's in Deuteronomy (4.00)
      Among a number of laws prescribed by God in Deuteronomy, to the effect that it is a commandment to help the unfortunate, is the rule that all debts are to be foregiven every 7 years.  Someone looked it up for me recently in a diary I posted.  Chapter 15?  Or thereabouts.

      Interestingly, under US banktruptcy law, you can only use bankruptcy once every 7 years--if you discharged your debts thru bankruptcy, you can't use it again for at least 7 years.  I always wondered if the 7 years was picked specifically with a nod to Deuteronomy.

      Also very interesting in light of that idiot's 'well, no one would lend you money.'  In the Deuteronomy passage, God specifically says, don't be pikers, don't get stingy about lending when the seven years is getting close.

    •   Lord's Prayer CORRUPTED BY SATAN? (none)
      Before I decided to "have faith" that chucking the whole Christian mess overboard was the right thing to do, It occurred to me as I sat in church that none of us were thinking about what we were saying as we chanted in unison. To my surprise, I was kinda creeped out when I really considered the words to the Lord's prayer. For instance: ... and forgive us our sins (trespasses) as we forgive those who sin (trespass) against us. So we are challenging God to live up to our standards? Seems risque. I would prefer something like "and forgive us our sins so we can forgive those who ...etc. Also: ...and lead us not into temptation...so now we are accusing God of tempting us into sin? I thought that was Satan's job. I think something more like "... strengthen us against temptation to protect us against the Evil One would be more appropriate. IMHO it's the pretty but archaic language at fault, because it obscures the meaning. But you won't find me saying such nasties about God. Just in case.

      Myths and legends die hard in America. --Hunter S Thompson

      by peterborocanuck on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 12:32:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Original translation (none)
      uses the word "trespasses"; many churches (my old Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod for one) use "sins". Basically an extension of forgiving those who wrong you "70 times 7" as Jesus taught.

      But I do like your interpretation as well...

      "It's an unnerving thought that we may be the living universe's supreme achievement and its worst nightmare simultaneously." -- Bill Bryson

      by Cali Scribe on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 12:45:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Pass me a towel please (none)
    I just snorted hot chocolate on my laptop.

    And he really doesn't get the irony of that statement?

  •  Jubilee! (none)
    Hey Pastordan!

    Is it a remote possibility...

     (For me, "think like a criminal" has morphed into "think like a fundamentalist evangelical theologian")

    ...that there is a Bible passage somewhere that dictates the every-50-year-or-so Jubilee Year (forgiveness of all debts) is coming soon?

    (It would have to be pre-Rapture...Right?  tee-hee)

    Now, that I could get behind!

    Maybe the bk bill is supposed to head that off, and try to collect as much as possible, before the Rapture Right gets that bit in its teeth, and runs with it?  "Ah gave it all t' muh church..."

    If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

    by HenryDavid on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:22:01 PM PST

    •  Love your name (none)
      Not Jubilee, but the Sabbatical year, in Jewish tradition. Here.
      Jubilee comes from the Hebrew term yobel refers to the blast of the shofar on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, announcing the jubilee year.

      This law is ascribed to the legislation on Mount Sinai (Lev. 25:1). It was to come into force after the Israelites should be in possession of Canaan, Israel. "When you come into the land which I give you" (ib.). The law provides that one may cultivate his field and vineyard six years, but "in the seventh year shall be...a Sabbath for the Lord," during which one shall neither sow nor reap for one's private gain, but all members of the community -- the owner, his servants, and strangers -- as well as domestic and wild animals, shall share in consuming the natural or spontaneous yield of the soil.

      The fiftieth year, i.e., that following the last year of seven Sabbatical cycles, is the jubilee; during it the land regulations of the Sabbatical year are to be observed, as is also the commandment "You shall return every man unto his possession" (ib. verse 10), indicating the compulsory restoration of hereditary properties (except houses of laymen located in walled cities) to the original owners or their legal heirs, and the emancipation of all Hebrew indentured servants whose term of six years is unexpired or who refuse to leave their masters when such term of service has expired (Gen. 18:6)

      The regulations of the Sabbatical year include also the annulment of all monetary obligations between Israelites, the creditor being legally barred from making any attempt to collect his debt (Deut. xv. 1 et seq.). The law for the jubilee year has not this provision.

      •  Sounds promising... (none)
        would play havoc for the title insurance industry, heh heh...

        If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

        by HenryDavid on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 01:14:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  jubilee was in 2000 (none)
      I remember the Pope did something to celebrate - can't remember what. oh, and there was pressure on the world bank to forgive the debts of 3rd world countries. they didn't.

      Our progress as a nation can be no swifter than our progress in education. The human mind is our fundamental resource. - John F. Kennedy

      by jung at heart on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 06:41:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  My letter to Grassley (4.00)
    I read in the Register, that in response to an appeal by Christian Bankruptcy Attorneys that you oppose the pending Bankruptcy legislation, you reply "Congress could not be bound by biblical mandates because 'the Constitution does not provide for a theocracy.'"

    I agree with your sentiments, and hope I'll never need to quote your words again.

    The Republican Party: We get government off your back, and drop it on your head.

    by ben masel on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:23:19 PM PST

    •  My Letter (4.00)
      Dear Senator Grassley:

      I recently read a story in the news, where you were quoted as saying "the Constitution does not provide for a theocracy. I can't listen to Christian lawyers because I would be imposing the Bible on a diverse population."

      I couldn't agree more.  Please inform the rest of your party.  

      Sincerely,
      etc.


      Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

      by johnny rotten on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:26:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  We need the General! (none)
      I'm sure he's got a great letter lined up for Grassley...

      The UCC: to believe is to care, to care is to do. Also, they have cookies.

      by pastordan on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:35:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Improved, sent to the Register... (4.00)
      In "Christian lawyers say bill, Bible don't mesh" Register, March 4, Senator Grassley is quoted "Congress could not be bound by biblical mandates because 'the Constitution does not provide for a theocracy.'"

      I've saved these wise words to my hardrive. I hope the Senator never gives me need to once again open this file.

      The Republican Party: We get government off your back, and drop it on your head.

      by ben masel on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:46:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't know, (4.00)
    I'm not particularly a christian but it usually takes me about seven years to forgive someone, and very rarely longer. Of course in the meantime, I have no interest whatsoever...

    Putting grapes back on the vine...

    by PBJ Diddy on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:23:53 PM PST

  •  Onward Christian Lawyers (4.00)
    "I can't listen to Christian lawyers because I would be imposing the Bible on a diverse population," Grassley said."

    I bet if they held a fundraiser he could.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:26:54 PM PST

  •  Head...exploding.... (4.00)
    Must...have...drink...now....
  •  I hope to God (4.00)
    the Dem that's gonna run against him is taking notes on these quotes.

    "You might think that. I couldn't possibly comment." Frances Urqhart (House of Cards)

    by Yankee in exile on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:34:03 PM PST

  •  you see, the Luntz paper that didn't get leaked (none)
    was "Which parts of the Bible to pay attention too". It layes out how anything relating to debt or the poor is unimportant.

    theJoeSpinZone|

    by joewlarson on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:34:46 PM PST

  •  LOL (4.00)
    The bastard has no compunction about sticking it to people with high medical bills and insurmountable debt.

    But he's queasy about being insensitive to America's religious diversity!  Jebus, he must be the first Republican to come out and say it:

    "Now, lookee here, folks... nobody here wants a theocracy!  Don't chu go talkin' like that.  We was just talkin' trash!  All's we really want is yer money."

    Republican ideology exposed!  News flash!

    Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of nonthought. -- Milan Kundera

    by Dale on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 07:39:50 PM PST

  •  Not a Theocracy? (4.00)
    I coulda sworn the establishment of a constitutional theocracy was plank number 17 in the platform adopted at the Republican convention last year.

    Plus it's confusing.  If the bible is to be taken literally, how do we know which parts to leave out?  I've sent away for my officially sanctioned GOP abridged bible, but there must be something wrong with the mail.

    -- Stu

    •  The GOP's Bible: (4.00)
      The abridged, expurgated version, in its entirety:

      Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
      Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
      Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a Bush : and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
      Exodus 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the Bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
      Exodus 15:26 And said, If Thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

      (Thanks to Bible on the web.com for easy access to the passages.)

      "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." - Thomas Jefferson

      by EsnRedshirt on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:48:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Al Franken's abridged bible (4.00)
        Franken has a great joke about a copy of the bible edited to take out all references to compassion and helping the poor.  He says that when you cut out all those passages, you have a perfect vehicle for stashing Rush Limbaugh's drugs
  •  They're not identified as right-wing Christian (none)
    lawyers, just Christian lawyers. I want to see how the right-wing Christians are going to respond.

    Sorry, but I'm not convinced until I see right-wingers outing their own. When they finally realize that the policies of this administration are going to hurt them too, then you'll see some kind of  shift, but not until.

    •  Well (none)
      There was Alabama Governor Bob Riley's tax proposal to overhaul their incredibly regressive property tax system, which he based on his religious beliefs.

      It was denounced by the state director of the Christian Coalition, but endorsed by the organization's national director. It got voted down.

  •  on this Friday night (none)
    I now have read two diaries that have just given me the chills.  I am in a frame of mind to surely pray for the forgivness of my anger for those who do wrong to others.  Thanks Pastor Dan.
  •  Grassley gets it !!!! (4.00)
    "I can't listen to Christian lawyers because I would be imposing the Bible on a diverse population."

    Let's add some new categories of Christians Senator Grassley can't listen to:

    Christian educators
    Christian entertainers
    Christian artists
    Christian scientist
    Christian writers
    Christian philosophers
    Christian mental health professionals
    Christian social workers

    Grassley's hostility to the Christian religion in the public spaces places him far outside the mainstream of the average God fearing American.

    I say we adopt him as our honorary secular humanist.

    Freedom does not march.

    by ex republican on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:00:23 PM PST

  •  Someone remind me... (4.00)
    "I can't listen to Christian lawyers because I would be imposing the Bible on a diverse population," Grassley said.

    Why is Grassley's party trying to outlaw gay marriage again?

    "If two men agree on everything, you may be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking." --LBJ

    by Utah for Dean on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:04:48 PM PST

  •  Wouldn't it be even funnier (none)
    if the rethug senate got flanked by the right wing fundies on the bankruptcy bill?  One can dream.
  •  Grassley Is Correct (none)
    In that this isn't (shouldn't be) a theocracy.  What I will say, and Grassley won't, is that Christian does not equal moral.  

    Debt forgiveness for those who are unable to pay because of a change in circumstance or honest misjudgment, and not fraud or malice, should be the law of land because it is right and just.  Not because it is "Christian."  

    These aforementioned lawyers are fighting for a good cause but from an unsound basis, IMO.

    •  Please (none)
      You're right about its being just, but it's also part of Christian teachings. They do coincide once in a while, you know.
      •  Please (none)
        "Christian" is as Christian does.  And they haven't done a whole lot of good lately.

        No, I'm not trying to paint every professed Christian with a broad brush, just the majority of them who happen to support the GOP.  

        Save your preaching.  I don't need it.  Spend it on your fellow Christians who seem to support lie-based war, dehumanization of homosexuals, elmination of welfare, and the gutting of bankruptcy law.  

      •  Ahem! (none)
        That's in the Old Testament, the debt relief law.  Deuteronomy
    •  Absolutely true (none)
      The main interests in pointing this out are: That Grassley's statement swims against most GOP rhetoric; and that, frankly, the unquestionable focus and message of the Bible with respect to (worldly) redemption and poverty needs to be shouted from the rooftops, precisely, as you point out, for the edification of all the self-professed Christians backing baldly un-Christian legislation. Maybe we need to launch the autoevangelist movement, preaching the Word to Christians?

      I do think there are some good ideas in the OT about debt and land management, but if they're adopted into Congressional bills it should be because they're good ideas, not because they're in the OT, and Congress should feel no hesitation about adapting the provisions to our own circumstances instead of following the letter of Deuteronomy.

      Since we no longer have taboos, we have Abus.

      by oldjohnbrown on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:53:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree on one point only (none)
      if these lawyers were actually fighting for a good, I would think they would apply it to both corporate and individual bankruptcy. They are not fighting a good cause at all, they had a chance to include corporate bankruptcy in the bill on Thursday and chose not to. I don't think they are fighting for a good cause at all.

      That's more than an unsound basis to me, that's collusion against the people, allowing the corporations (the real whores of bankruptcy) to get away with it while little people can't. They have to look the other way when the word "corporate" is mentioned. It's okay for a corporation to do it, but don't let a lowly U.S. citizen try it. More cognitive dissonance.

    •  You are absolutely right. (none)
       Grassley is correct. And I have the proof.

       Ever read the Treaty with Tripoli?

       Article 11:

       

      Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

       Passed unanimously by the Congress and signed into law by President Adams in 1797.

       And fundamentalist whackos can go stroke it.

      If he really thinks we're the devil, then let's send him to Hell!

      by Anderson Republican on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 02:05:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bush's Religion (none)
    If Bush is such a faithful devotee of the Bible and Judeo-Christian teachings, why doesn't he get his buddies at Mastercard and Visa to forgive our cc debt every seven years, huh? He couldn't be THAT good of a Christian, I guess.

    Ascensus

    "Don't take life too serious. You'll never escape it alive anyway." --Elbert Hubbard

    by ascensus on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 08:27:29 PM PST

  •  Sigh... (none)
    The bankruptcy reform bill has provisions to help the richest of the rich by allowing exemptions for private trusts.  

    But no provisions for Granny or cousin Joe in the military.  One of these days the red staters I live with are going to wake up and say 'W(ho)TF dreamt up this unholy law'???

    How on earth is this consistent with 'values grounded in religious belief'?

    Sigh...

  •  Where is the Jesus mastercard? (4.00)
    I'm just wondering, is there a Jesus mastercard? These lawyers notwithstanding, I think there's a definite market.  It could have a picture of Jesus on it, and a nice slogan, like "Teach a man to fish, and he can fish for a day, but give him a mastercard, and he can fly to Vegas."

    I will go away now.

  •  Can we drag this back out (none)
    ...and use it as a club every time someone wants to implement some boneheaded Fundamentalist interpretation of "Christian law"?

    That's a choice find, pastordan! Can we get this group to come out every time they see something like this? We'd have a book full of good quotes in no time, methinks.

    True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. --Martin Luther King Jr.

    by Phoenix Rising on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 09:51:19 PM PST

  •  Save This One (none)
    "I can't listen to Christian lawyers because I would be imposing the Bible on a diverse population," Grassley said.

    That's priceless.  Save the quote and repeat it over and over and over again.

  •  From the 'Things that make you go hmmm Dept.' (none)
    Sen. Grassley got a 100% rating from the Christian Coalition back in the 2000 election cycle.

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

    by Lestatdelc on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 10:50:37 PM PST

  •  Seems Sen. Grassley had no problem... (none)
    ....co-sponsoering the S.J.RES.164 a joint resolution designating 1990 as the "International Year of Bible Reading" back in 1989.

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

    by Lestatdelc on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 10:52:39 PM PST

  •  The most important thing (none)
    is that this bill directly targets the poor, the elderly and the sick.

    WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?) indeed.

    I wonder why they push this incredibly un-Christian legislation? Right.. they never cared about religious truth and justice in the first place.

    The parts of the Bible on greed and gluttony are optional. Oh, and those on bigotry and hypocrisy too.

    by Joe B on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 03:30:20 AM PST

  •  He's For Protecting Tithing From Bankruptcy (none)
    Link
    "Freedom of religion is one of our most important constitutional liberties," Grassley said. "My proposal responds directly to decisions made by federal judges which leave churches open to bankruptcy lawsuits and force charities to return money given through tithing. It would prevent federal judges from un-doing a voluntary act of worship in the way of tithing, as described in the Bible."

    In addition to protecting money which has been donated already to a church or tax- exempt charity organization, Grassley's legislation also would protect tithing after Chapter 13 bankruptcy has been declared. Chapter 13 allows debtors to re-pay a discounted portion of their debts. Grassley said the problem is that under current law debtors are permitted to budget a moderate amount of money for entertainment expenses, but they are not allowed to budget money for tithing.

    "It doesn't make sense that a person repaying debt under Chapter 13 can budget for a burger and a movie but not for a charitable contribution to his or her church, even when that individual has demonstrated in practice that he or she believes that tithing is Biblically-mandated. In fact, current law violates individual religious freedom," Grassley said.

    So when did he lose religion? He seemed to not mind dealing with Christian lawyers intermingling the bible with bankruptcy laws before. Doesn't the bible say something about serving two masters? The poor GOP has to decide between the religous right and corporate interests. When it comes down to the really big money in this bankruptcy bill (beyond the tithing small change) it seems to be,"Sorry Christians. You're on your own."

  •  Bush's Faith (none)
    HAS moved mountains, OF CASH, and it damned sure isn't in OUR pockets.

    (I need a good smoke)

    "who is gonna make it..we'll find out in the long run" (eagles)

    by infidelpig on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 04:14:39 AM PST

  •  asdf (4.00)
    I hope that Grassley has an opponent with the balls to stand up and say "Christ kicked the moneylenders out of the temple; why is Sen. Grassley inviting them back in???" But you know it won't happen.
  •  A Question for Pastor Dan (none)
    I read the President's recent remarks on faith and he spoke of "dark neighborhoods."  Could you explain to me what the President meant by that phrase?  
    •  I guess the President's mind (none)
      just blacked out for a moment, when he said that.

      Human life should be governed by truth, freedom, justice and love.

      by mimi on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 07:33:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Probably blue NYC (none)
       LOL!! I thought of something funny..dark neighborhoods..when the lights go out. ..
      Bush is worried about Blue Cities with blackouts from power outages like what happened in NYC in the summer of 03.  He must be very concerned about California then or thinks these power outages are because Blue areas are godless liberals .
       Remember the rolling blackouts.
      People will not be able to pay their electric bill because of Bush and the Blue areas will black out first. Or if Bush gets mad at the blue states, he may do rolling black outs and we could be dark neighborhoods.

      We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

      by wishingwell on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:23:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Satan Sowing His Seeds in the GOP? (none)
    Now, the evil one is apparently insinuating his making his way into the GOP.

    We need to take the biggest wedge we can find, and begin pounding it thoroughly between Grassley and the Republican's so-called "Christian" base.
    Hopefully they will demand Grassley's resignation.

  •  I don't know if this has been asked... (none)
    but given the fact that there are so many reservists in Iraq rather than at the job that provided for the mortgages, covered the bills, and bought the food, how exactly is this legislation "supporting the troops"?

    Many are going to come flat broke and in debt...with the house gone and the car repossessed for doing their duty. Why isn't that part of the frame?

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