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I checked, and don't see this. What does it mean? Does that mean Terri can still survive? Will they put her feeding tube back in? Since only the headline is up on the NYT webpage as of 5 minutes ago, I don't know what to make of it. I'm not familiar with the legal preceedings and stuff, like what happens. Any comments? Opinions? This is straight from the NYT homepage, only a headline now. I didn't know the courts were open this late! Federal Appeals Court OKs Schiavo Review 11 minutes ago ATLANTA - A federal appeals court early Wednesday agreed to consider a petition for a new hearing on whether to reconnect Terri Schiavo's feeding tube. More below...

The ruling by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals came as the severely brain-damaged woman entered her 13th day without nourishment. Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, have maintained that Schiavo would want to be kept alive and have asked the courts to intervene. Schiavo's husband, Michael, insists he is carrying out her wishes by having the feeding tube pulled. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=2&u=/ap/20050330/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman&sid=84439559

Originally posted to Mike from NJ on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:47 PM PST.

Poll

After 13 days without food and water, will Terri live if she gets to eat again!!?!

17%5 votes
14%4 votes
67%19 votes

| 28 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  haven't you heard? (4.00)
    everything illegal need to go through the courts between the hours of 8pm and 5am EST Friday thru Sunday.
  •  Link? (none)
    or post the high points of the article? More info would be great.
  •  just heard it too... (none)
    Terri's parents filed an emergency petition with the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals late Tuesday, asking that the full court hear an appeal to have her feeding tube reinserted, according to the CNN website. The Court has granted the review, but no timetable has been given yet.
    •  wasn't this the same court (none)
      that denied to hear it 10-2 last time?

      There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated...insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason.-NoFx

      by SairaLV on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:56:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  OMG, when will it be enough for them? (none)
      Why oh why are they so intent upon torturing that poor woman. She's at death's door and they seriously want to try to pull her back again! Why? They aren't finished playing their games yet? This is beyond cruel, if the court grants the reinsertion of the tube.
      •  Ownership society (none)
        I just read the fine print, it doesn't apply to families.  
      •  Please, their daughter is dying (none)
        Have some respect for the aggrieved. As much as I disagree with the Schindler's, I respect their view of life and the actions they're taking out of desperation to save their daughter's life. As sad and tragic as this story is, why direct our criticisms at the Schindlers when that criticism is better funneled elsewhere? The Schindlers are just parents who love their daughter and haven't yet faced the reality that they lost her long ago. While I agree that their actions are cruel and selfish and they should allow her to die with dignity, I don't think it's fair to accuse them of "playing games."

        The only people playing games are the fucking assholes in Congress who manipulate this family for their own political motives.

        •  Disagree (4.00)
          the Schindlers are the ones who started this circus by hiring PR advisors and taking this whole thing public.  They have had 15 years to gain some perspective on having a daughter in this state and have chosen to make this about what THEY want rather than what their daughter might want, what is decent and respectful or is essential a part of life and a part of parenting.

          The Schindlers aren't the only people in this world to lose a child and their arrogance and narcissistic behavior is a slap in the face to any other parent who has watched a child die and done so with caring and dignity.  My son's grandfather cared for his 37 year old son who died of a brain tumor: he had no less pain or grief than the Schindlers and a hell of a lot more of a burden: no malpractice suit to cover the costs of the catastrophic medical care, not even any insurance.  He never once made that ordeal be about him, nor has he since. He didn't infantilize his adult child, nor did he try to defame the people his son loved .  He stood there everyday while he watched his son suffer real pain and die a rather gruesome death, telling folks he could bear anything because it didn't compare to what his son was bearing.  And now, 4 years later, he still grieves, but doesn't indulge that grief with self-pity, or a demand for attention.

          He puts the Schindlers to shame.  As does anyone else who has gone through such a trauma with a bit of grace and maturity.  Maybe instead of making videotapes, the Schindlers could benefit from looking around the hospice and seeing how other people facing the same tragic situation they face behave in the face of such grief.

          In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

          by a gilas girl on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 05:49:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  if she doens't... (none)
        feel anything,as most of you seems to maintain, how the devil can they be torturing here?
          If she can feel anything, how can you possible know , not having been experienced the same, identical condition youself, whether she's  not more likely being tortured because she wants to drink and therefore live but her f*ing IV tube has been removed involunatrily?
           

        A man may fish with the worm that hath et of a king and then eat of the fish that hath et of that worm--Shakespeare (Hamlet)

        by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:29:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Here's a link (none)

    Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

    by Barbara Morrill on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:56:05 PM PST

    •  For those not registered: (none)
      A federal appeals court early Wednesday agreed to consider a petition for a new hearing on whether to reconnect Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.

      The ruling by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals came as the severely brain-damaged woman entered her 13th day without nourishment.

      Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, have maintained that Schiavo would want to be kept alive and have asked the courts to intervene. Schiavo's husband, Michael, insists he is carrying out her wishes by having the feeding tube pulled.

      Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

      by Barbara Morrill on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:57:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Guess who? (none)
        sits on the 11th Cir. by recess appointment?

        William Pryor...the first fascist Bush appointee out of committee and probably the nominee that will provoke the nuclear option...

        •  But... (none)
          ...he didn't write an objection to the earlier verdict.

          I guess your perspective changes a bit once you get the black robes. Such a nice new nest, and Bush can't force him out of it either -- why should he shit in it?

          "Salvation is by way of the truth, not by way of the fatherland" -- Chaadaev

          by sagesource on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:45:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  11th Circus (4.00)
    This is by far the most psycho-Christian leaning bench in the country.  Keep your outrage dry.
    •  You didn't have any idea what you were doing (3.00)
      `

      Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain

      by Rolfyboy6 on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:04:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

        •  um... (none)
          while i don't know exactly what the above poster meant, i can guess:

          tip jars aren't for "breaking news" that will be everywhere else in 5 minutes anyway. you just posted a NYT story with (admittedly) no idea what it meant.

          tip jars, if they exist at all, should (in my meaningless, yet mojo-expressed opinion) are for people who've done really hard work on a diary. so, the fact that you didn't know what you were doing sort of obviates your right to or need for a tip jar.

          byzantine reasoning, i know. oh well.

        •  Two things (4.00)
          Go to the FAQ and get the knowledge you need for basic diary posting like the three HTML commands to post links, oictures, and text boxes. That way you won't break the margins and have that wide screen "cinemascope" effect on the page.

          Secondly, notice that you should have done the research for your diary, rather than the deer-in-the-headlights thing of saying "Somebody tell me what's happening here!!" Use Google news, or Yahoo news. then you could have linked (properly) and had a scoop.

          This place uses a few standards. You'll get used to it and learn a bunch and your writing and formatting will improve from it. The FAQ is real useful.

          Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain

          by Rolfyboy6 on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:27:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  IF YOU MUST!!!!!! (none)
      My teevee told me too. Here's a 4 for posting.  
      This is: lunacy. pure.and.simple. (not you, Mike, the whole thing)
      My 18 yr old daughter expressed wish not to be kept alive like Mrs. Shiavo and I would honor her wish as horrific as that would be for me.
       
  •  But (none)
    I thought the Schindlers said they were not going to file any more appeals.
    •  they did (none)
      Then again, Michael Schindler said yesterday that Terri was "begging for help".

      "I have lived with several Zen masters -- all of them cats." - Eckhart Tolle

      by catnip on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:05:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ahh that explains it... (3.50)
        they lie.

        There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated...insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason.-NoFx

        by SairaLV on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:06:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  exactly (none)
          And for those who consider that as a put down, it isn't. It's the truth. They have lied about many things. They're way too deep in denial to acknowledge the truth.

          "I have lived with several Zen masters -- all of them cats." - Eckhart Tolle

          by catnip on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:09:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  putting on my cynical hat (none)
      I'd say it was a way to get this back in the news.  Did you notice yesterday the story falling off as a top news story?  Hence Jesse Jackson and the new appeal.
      •  and to further that thought (none)
        Jesse would've been old news by today.  The court filing was late yesterday for today's round of news stories.  The further reflection that georgia10 refers to downthread on the lawyers part was to reflect on how to make this newsworthy once again. Twisted folks are in charge of this.
  •  CNN Int. (none)
    They had said on Saturday that every LEGAL avenue was exhausted.

    I wonder which specific laws have been changed to allow them to do this???

    Any lawyers up late around here?

    •  etc (none)
      judicial watch - anyone who call fill me in on how they and Jesse Jackson with senate interference can pull this off?
    •  Lawyer Here! (none)
      I don't know what's going on.  

      The news accounts are not very good.  The order isn't on the 11th Circuit website.  I guess we will just have to wait until tomorrow.  

      Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

      by johnny rotten on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 11:11:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  the latin (none)
        fell out of my brain as soon as I heard it, but...they're asking the court to start from scratch, not review what's gone on previously. any precedent for that?
        •  I don't know what is going on (none)
          From the AP:

          A federal appeals court early Wednesday agreed to consider a petition by Terri Schiavo's parents for a new hearing on whether to reconnect their severely brain-damaged daughter's feeding tube.

          The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled without comment on Schiavo's 12th day without nourishment. Last week, the same court twice ruled against Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who are trying to keep her alive.

          In seeking a new hearing late Tuesday, attorneys for Schiavo's parents argued that the District Court "committed plain error when it reviewed only the state court case and outcome history."

          Now, the court will consider the request for a new hearing based on the facts of the case, rather than whether previous Florida court rulings have met legal standards under state law.

          This is not very informative.  I would have to read the petition and/or the court order to figure out what is going on.  

          Sounds like the Schindlers are arguing that Terri's law required the federal district to hold a new trial to determine whether the feeding tube should be removed and that the court erred in only considering whether she received due process from the state trial court.  

          Does that help?

          Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

          by johnny rotten on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 11:23:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Is This An Appeal Of Judge Whittmore's Ruling? (none)
    Why would they wait 4 days to file an appeal?

    To the lawyers out there: Is it unusual to bypass the 3 judge panel, & go directly to the full "En Banc"?

  •  holy crap (none)
    How many flipping appeals are possible in this case??

    "I have lived with several Zen masters -- all of them cats." - Eckhart Tolle

    by catnip on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:03:49 PM PST

    •  I know (none)
      This case has already been litigated to death.

      Welfare for Florida lawyers? :-)

    •  CNN reported (none)
      this is another request stating that her 14th Amendment Due Process rights were violated (how many people have had their courtcase reach such a level of litigation? I think ONLY Terri Schiavo has had this much legislative attention) and get this:

      11th Circuit stated during last decision that if another appeal would be filed, there was a deadline of Wednesday March 23rd at 10:00 am, yet apparently according to the CNN reporter, the Schindler's lawyers are arguing that they are only about a WEEK late because they were overwhelmed with petition preparation after having to prepare so many petitions. Hmmmmm, only about A WEEK late. Think the 11th circuit will be moved to rule differently?

  •  What confuses me (none)
    is that the protestors who have been outside beating the "heartbeat" drum and saying they would not leave under any circumstances are ALL gone.

    I'm watching the live CNN stuff, and there is no one but the reporters out there.

    Eerie.

  •  FYI (none)
    Every court has someone on duty to receive emergency petitions and/or requests for search warrants, depending on their jurisdictions.

    Bankruptcy can be declared at decidedly odd hours by "normal" standards, as well.

    Let's get some Democracy for America

    by murphy on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:04:54 PM PST

  •  shit (none)
    Jesse Jackson has spent the day on the phone with members of the senate asking them to

    "be creative enough to pass emergency" blah, blah

    WTF?????Wake up a lawyer.

    •  Sorry, screw the Rev. Jackson (none)
      I was very disappointed that he decided to join this circus, but in retrospect I'm not surprised. In fact, I'm kinda shocked that he was able to stay away for so long! All those cameras, ya know.

      I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire

      by baracon on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:58:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  There hasn't been a ruling. (none)
    The 11th circuit only ruled that the parents MAY petition the court not that they actually won anything here.

    It is extremely unlikely that the whole court will find any different than the 3 judge panel. If I recall correctly they ruled 3-0 against the parent's claim and I suspect the full court will rule the same. This is just a last ditch desperate attempt similar to all the other failed attempts. Besides it is highly likely that Terri has passed the point of no return already as it appears her kidney's may have shut down.

    I hope she passes quickly and quietly so this circus can move into Act 2. At least then her ordeal will be over even if ours has just begun.

    Coming soon to a legislature near you! The neocon revenge!

    "Not all who wander are lost" Impenitent Atheist

    by mysticl on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:08:02 PM PST

  •  CALLING ALL LAWYERS!! (none)
    HELP US. IS ANYONE STILL AWAKE?

    What does all this mean??

  •  What's really sad... (none)
    I'm about to trundle off to bed and hear on NPR about this.  What do I do?  I log on to see what diary is up about this?  I think I'm becoming a little too vegetative.  

    Oh well, since I'm here - can the Schindlers somehow win?  What does happen if she dies by morning?  I really hate this whole soap opera, but I've become caught up in all the miserable drama.

  •  At this point (none)
    the feeding tube would probably kill her.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:10:26 PM PST

  •  terri (none)
    I agree that having terri starve to death is a stupid way of ending her life. I agree michael schiavo has the right to decide what to do with his wife, but she should be euthanized, instead of having starvation be the method of her demise. I also respect the parents trying to save their daughter, but if michael says this is what she wanted, we should believe him.

    John Kerry 2008, the leader of the youth of America.

    by desiunion on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:11:58 PM PST

    •  It's not starvation she's dying from (4.00)
      it's dehydration.

      Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

      by bumblebums on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:15:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  ok dehydration (none)
        Either way, this method of ending someones life is too strange for the people who are alive, in my opinion.

        John Kerry 2008, the leader of the youth of America.

        by desiunion on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:23:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  perhaps not? (4.00)
          We lost a good friend three years ago to ALS. Since she left no written directives her family agreed at the end that the feeding tube would be removed first, and the ventilator would then be removed.  While the decision was agonizing for them, the prospect of leaving a dying sister functioning only with tubes, pumps, and wires was "a fate worse than death."  The morphine was given (perhaps more for the family than for the woman herself?) and the apparatus removed.  As one family member put it, "When the prognosis is worse than the reality, it's time to make a very hard decision."

          Act in your own best interest: Be a Democrat.

          by greatbasin2 on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:37:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  a fate worse... (none)
            than death? How do you know what a fate worse than death is, having not been there? Persoanlly,I'm an atheist, and I can't imagine anything worse than complete and irrevocable annihilation of all thouht, sensation, feeling, memories, perceptions,dreams, hopes, dounts, fears and eve pain and pleassure. That's what death is.

            A man may fish with the worm that hath et of a king and then eat of the fish that hath et of that worm--Shakespeare (Hamlet)

            by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:41:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I can imagine a lot of things worse than that (none)
              what you are talking about is a nothingness, which is not nearly as bad as some active things can be.

              Torture, watching someone you love being tortured, watching someone you love suffering, being placed in a situation where you have to do harm to someone else, even kill them, in order to save someone you love. All of those things are far worse, to my mind, than simply no thought, no feeling, no pain, no pleasure, no anything. The cessasation of life isn't necessarily a horrible thing - it may not be positive, but it isn't necessarily negative.  It simply is. There are far worse things.  

              In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

              by a gilas girl on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 05:56:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't.. (none)
                agree, obviously. I've experience an enromous amount of physical pain in my life (both physical and pshycological) and I dare say that some of it amounted to internal torture. I would gladly go through it all again if given the choice becasue
                1. I learned an invaluable amount from my suffering.
                2. There always reamined the possibility that the suffering would cease. That, to me, is the defintiton of pleasure,BTW.
                3. I could alwayd escape from the most extreme and horrendous moments of suffering by blocking out relaity from my mind and immerging myself in a sort of delieberately-induced and overwhelmingly powerful dream state of being.
                   One final observation: you said that nothing is.
                I don't know what that means.

                We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:24:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I said that nothing is (4.00)
                  simply nothing: it is neither good nor bad.  It is nothing.  Therefore, I don't know how it can be the worst thing there is.

                  I'm not talking about physical suffering as much as I am talking about the emotional and ethical suffering that life sometimes puts people through, actually.  While I agree that physical suffering CAN (and that's the key issue, it can but doesn't necessarily, and the issues are always context specific here)enrich ones life (depending upon who one is and how one deals with the suffering) not everyone does that.  This is the reason that developing moral positions based upon individual experience is almost always problematic in my mind.  Different people in the same situations will create something different from it.

                  Not being born and being dead are not the worst things that can happen to people.  That's all I'm saying. Dying is also not the worst thing that can happen to a person.  It may not be great, and it may frighten a great deal of people (something I confess I don't understand, but recognize that it exists)but its not the worst thing that can happen.  In fact, its a necessary thing if you want to live. And if we want to love people (i.e. people who actually live) then we have to learn to say good-bye to them when they die, that's the price of knowing and loving them in life. We all have to face that.  A refusal to do that is a decidedly anti-human and I would say anti-life position.

                  But I realize most people don't agree with me, because we are taught (or guided/encouraged) to fetishize a small piece of "life" into the whole and that's what gives rise to people's objections to abortion, suicide, assisted suicide, euthanasia and even the process of death and the attempts to put it off. Part of the problem in our culture is the obsessive degrees of individuality that we traffic in, which make a mockery of "life" and "death", IMHO.  There's a far healthier attitude in those cultures that see a connection between the generations, between the living and the dying and with some degree of what has perjoratively been referred to as "ancestor worship".  Too much fetishization of any individual life leads to our losing sight of the processual nature of life and death and how they fit together. My $0.02 anyway.

                  In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

                  by a gilas girl on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:35:31 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  many more than 2 mere cents (none)
                    Your commentary is usually great, but this was off the scale. The decline of our culture is directly attributable to its excessive subjectivity.

                    Thanks.

                    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

                    by bumblebums on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:54:45 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Gee... (none)
                      how we are beggining to sound like Newt Gingrich and the new right!

                      We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                      by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:01:42 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  There's a continuum. (none)

                        Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

                        by bumblebums on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:17:25 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  hardly (none)
                        I"ve never heard Newt even utter the words "respect" much less express any practice of it. This is about as far from the positions of Newt and his ilk as I can imagine, given the excessive authoritarianism that undergirds Newt's worldviews.

                        In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

                        by a gilas girl on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:16:23 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Ok..... (none)
                          you're right. I give up. You make no argument here, of course. But obiter dicta is fine. You have the majority on your side. Now, doesn't that make you feel good.

                            the majority is always wrong-----Ibsen

                          We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                          by gilgamesh on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 07:38:04 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  It makes me feel nothing (none)
                            neither good nor bad.  My attempt is not to persuade or to "win", both of which are rather limiting objectives to the fine human practice of democratic discourse, to my mind. I will continue to voice my opinions when they are material to discussions and it strikes me I have something to add that might not otherwise be expressed. As for people disagreeing (or agreeing) with me, that's also of very little consequence, though it is nice to know I'm not completely alone in the world sometimes.  Still, I don't find being on the outside of the norms all that frightening or lonely, it is a position I am accustomed to.

                            Your tone does sound a bit peeved, however.  Is that really a satisfying subject position to take up in discussion/discourse?  If you enjoy it, then I apologize for calling attention to it, but its the one thing that does take away the human and intellectual pleasures I gain from discussion, which is, I suppose, why it so stands out to me.  I'm sorry if you've found the exchange so unpleasant, especially since it had been rather productive from my point of view.  riences.  

                            In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

                            by a gilas girl on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 05:47:09 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Come on.... (none)
                            now. I was referring to that one comment and I was a bit peeved by it because you responded to a comment tha wasn't directed at you in the first place. Then,you're comment consisted in nothing more than an obiter dicta dissociating yourself from a position which might bear some possible resemble in some sublte way to Newt Gingrich's. You also missed the fact that I was  being somewhat tongue-in-cheek when I made that comment, BTW.
                                In any case, I'm not peeved now. And even when I do get somewhat peeved...well...yes, i do think sometimes I write and think with more focus and seriousness when I'm passionate about soemthing. It depends on the context.
                                The fact is I agree with you but I wish you stop trying to put me on the defensive all of the time.That's a very powerful polemical tactic and you use it extremely well.
                              I'm glad you feel that our discussion has been useful and helpful to you. That,in itself, makes it clear to me that the discussion was worthwile. For my part, I'll say this: you're probably the most intelligent and interesting correspondent that I've  gotten into a serious discussion with on this blog. You're also extremely persistent and you don't give up (qualites I very much admire)
                            but not dogmatic.
                             

                            We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                            by gilgamesh on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 08:18:50 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Come on.... (none)
                            now. I was referring to that one comment and I was a bit peeved by it because you responded to a comment tha wasn't directed at you in the first place. Then,you're comment consisted in nothing more than an obiter dicta dissociating yourself from a position which might bear some possible resemble in some sublte way to Newt Gingrich's. You also missed the fact that I was  being somewhat tongue-in-cheek when I made that comment, BTW.
                                In any case, I'm not peeved now. And even when I do get somewhat peeved...well...yes, i do think sometimes I write and think with more focus and seriousness when I'm passionate about soemthing. It depends on the context.
                                The fact is I agree with you but I wish you stop trying to put me on the defensive all of the time.That's a very powerful polemical tactic and you use it extremely well.
                              I'm glad you feel that our discussion has been useful and helpful to you. That,in itself, makes it clear to me that the discussion was worthwile. For my part, I'll say this: you're probably the most intelligent and interesting correspondent that I've  gotten into a serious discussion with on this blog. You're also extremely persistent and you don't give up (qualites I very much admire)
                            but not dogmatic.
                             

                            We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                            by gilgamesh on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 08:19:53 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Come on.... (none)
                            now. I was referring to that one comment and I was a bit peeved by it because you responded to a comment tha wasn't directed at you in the first place. Then,you're comment consisted in nothing more than an obiter dicta dissociating yourself from a position which might bear some possible resemble in some sublte way to Newt Gingrich's. You also missed the fact that I was  being somewhat tongue-in-cheek when I made that comment, BTW.
                                In any case, I'm not peeved now. And even when I do get somewhat peeved...well...yes, i do think sometimes I write and think with more focus and seriousness when I'm passionate about soemthing. It depends on the context.
                                The fact is I agree with you but I wish you stop trying to put me on the defensive all of the time.That's a very powerful polemical tactic and you use it extremely well.
                              I'm glad you feel that our discussion has been useful and helpful to you. That,in itself, makes it clear to me that the discussion was worthwile. For my part, I'll say this: you're probably the most intelligent and interesting correspondent that I've  gotten into a serious discussion with on this blog. You're also extremely persistent and you don't give up (qualites I very much admire)
                            but not dogmatic.
                             

                            We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                            by gilgamesh on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 08:20:14 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  nothingness (none)
                    , in itself, is neither good nor bad. That's a truism.  But our here- and- now projections and immaginations of and thoughts about the future state that inevitably awaits us (annihilation) tend to be rather somber and horrified. Those fundamantal thouhght are conditioned by a millenial evoltionary process which has intalled irremediably in us an instinct to self-preservation (another word for "fear of death"). To die, therefore, whether we are conscious of it or not, is obviously universally repungnant to our nature. Thus we fear the elimiation of what we are; the end of being, not
                    nothingness in itself.

                    I'm not talking about physical suffering as much as I am talking about the emotional and ethical suffering that life sometimes puts people through, actually.  While I agree that physical suffering CAN (and that's the key issue, it can but doesn't necessarily, and the issues are always context specific here)enrich ones life (depending upon who one is and how one deals with the suffering) not everyone does that.  This is the reason that developing moral positions based upon individual experience is almost always problematic in my mind.  Different people in the same situations will create something different from it  

                       Indeed, you're now suggesting that the diversity of moral postions and ideas that arise from experience can be dangerous and undesriable.
                    From what does morailty derive, if not from human experince and the intersubjective discussion, understanding and compromise of the various experiences into a unified sysntheis which can be codified into a code of tentative rules and conventions by which society may govern itself for a time.
                       Not univerasl rules derived from a single individual's experience, nor the will of the majority imposing it's underdtanidn and experiene on the rest, But a compromise bewteeen various indivuals and minority groups interets (including those of the disabled).

                    And if we want to love people (i.e. people who actually live) then we have to learn to say good-bye to them when they die, that's the price of knowing and loving them in life. We all have to face that.  A refusal to do that is a decidedly anti-human and I would say anti-life position.
                      I agree, the problem is in defining when a person is dead. In this case, the person was not and you're just assuming the contrary doesn't make it so.

                      As to your last point, you seem to prefer "collectivist" cultures to individualistic ones.
                    Societies which subordinate the person to the  whole, even projecting into the past, thereby
                    forcing an individual to sacrifice himself as a means to the overall good of society. I think such
                    ideas are very dangerous with respect to the development of individual creativity and indepedence, not to mention the latent danger of totaliariansim inherent in them.

                    We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                    by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:30:01 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I disagree profoundly (none)
                      with your normative statement that a sense of self-preservation is another name for fear of death.  One can have a strong sense of self-preservation without any fear of death.  In fact, this is accomplished in many cultures (and has been in the past).  

                      I'm not really saying that people shouldn't fear death (fear it if you want to, I have some sympathy for that position having watched people who feared death die, that's a hard thing to do.  I don't have to feel it myself to empathize or recognize that people have it), what I am objecting to is your rather emotional (and somewhat overpowering) way of papering over what are only singular possibilities of ways to feel, believe or react and trying to pronounce them as "universals" or "inevitables" of human nature.  They are not.  Humans are profoundly complicated creatures for whom any number of ways of understanding even the most basic of human functions.  The way that we make these choices become inevitable products of nature or God or human biology (and the way you are trying to do it by introducing your own, very specific and highly emotionally-laden biography as a way to make broad assertions about "humans) is what I'm taking issue with, and have taken issue with most of my life.  I don't presume to know the answers, I only know that there are lots of them and that no single human being (or human-dogma) can have all the answers.  Which means the way we -- both as individuals and collectively -- deal with the situations where we can't know and the ways we open up options for and respect of those in that situation without recourse to some implied sense of superiority or power (such as being a family of origin, a religious authority, or an elected official who abuses the public trust and sphere to promote a particular dogma) says a whole lot more about our collective "morality" than any singular "moral" position any of us (or all of us, collectively) may take.

                      In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

                      by a gilas girl on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:27:37 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  you are... (none)
                        whole comment consists in quarreling with my equation of "fear of death" to "instint of self-preservation." Fine, have it your way. Take the phrase "fear of death" out completely and then try to deny that's there is a fundmantal instint to self-presevration that is biologically ingrained.That, as a logical consequence, death is fundmantally repugnant to our nature. If it weren't,people would be jumping in front of automibes in the middle of the street and not running away as fast as possible. They would be diving out of helicopters wihout a parachute and then experiencing a senation of joy or, at least, indifference, not what they actually do experience: terror and the fight-or-flight mechanism.
                          But let's go back to where this whole thing started and take a Wittgensianian approach 7to get the fly out of th flybotle). I really do think what we have here is a psuedo-argument.Someone wrote in a comment that certain states of being are "worse than" death. I responded by stating that I thought there was nothing worse than death.
                        You responded to that by saying that you could imagine many things "worse"than death. But death is nothing and cannot be either good or bad in itself, therefore all these comparisons and affermations are meaningless.
                           We have do seem to have substantive dfferences of opinion with regard to the value and sigificance of suffering. You seem to be irreconcilably antaganostic to it. This, I suspect, is the majority postion in (especially) American society today. And this is where our real diffrence lies, for suffering is seomthing which CAN be valued or disvalued.
                           I should add that I've been living in Italy for the last four years and I do not yet see this overwhelming obsession, as I perceive it, of avoiding suffering and hiding it in nursing homes and other institiuons which predominates in the US (though it is speading here as well). I think that it is this profound cultural "fear of suffering" (which definitely isn't universlal) which is bhind so much of the movement for euthanasia and so-called "death with dignity".
                           As to your remarks about "imposing my ideas or univealizing my exeriences", quite the contrary.
                        What I'm wooried about is that a majority population (healthy, able-bodied)takes it into its head that a minority polulation or a member of said minority doesn't have the right to be protected against the fashionble opinion of the majority in that society that certain individual's  lives are not worth living. This tyranny of the majority can be exercised in many forms: a person grows up inculcated in modern Americn society with the idea that live is not worth living if you can't be like the rest.
                              As i said in my previous post: moral consensus is acheived through negotaion, discusion and compromise between individuals with very dfferent experiences in life, but on the condition that protecstions will be built-in so that the majority does not impose its will on minority populations (especaill those who  are unable to protect themeslves. that's not my idea; that's john Rawls.

                         

                        We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                        by gilgamesh on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 06:44:43 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  A fundamental instinct toward (none)
                          self-preservation is irrelevant to me and what I'm arguing with you about.  If its fine with you to take out your equation of "fundamental instinct for self-preservation" with "fear of death", then what you are talking about is of little to no interest to me.

                          Even fundamental instincts have myriad ways of expressing themselves, there is no universal or monolith even for those things.  That instinct toward "self-preservation" could very well take the form of sacrificing oneself in order to protect the life of one's children in certain contexts or cultural traditions: remember "self-preservation" has multiple dimensions and interpretations, too. I've chosen to protect myself, in many occassions by coming to accept that being dead will one day put me at peace and release me from the constant struggle that being alive in this world has thrust me into. Suicide attempts have been acts of self-preservation in contexts like that. Suicide would have "saved" me in a couple of instances, but I was unlukcy enough to have to continue struggling in those instances.

                          In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

                          by a gilas girl on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 08:55:18 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  i think what... (none)
                            you're referring to as "sacrifing" oneself to save the life of others can be (and has been) suceesfully explained in evolutinary psyshologcial terms as kinships selection and/or reciprocal altruism. These are all sub-cortical level "unconsious" attemopts at self-preservation of one's genes. So I agree with you fundamantally. You may consider it culturally determined whereas I think there's abundant evedience that this is biologically determined.
                            But I don't have time and energy to get into such an enormous discussion right now.
                              Suicide, however, is an act contary to the instict of self-presevation of life though. It's just fundmantally self-contradictory to claim otherwise. Freud tried the much more reasable hypothesis ofa death instinct. But even that idea
                            didn't have mch support behind it and consequently isn't taken seriously anymore these days.
                               Your wish to die,like mine on occasion, is more probably the result of "fear" or intolerance of suffering (that's very understandable and sometimes might even be justified) but it's not to be identified with self-preservation.

                            We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                            by gilgamesh on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 11:17:39 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  gilas girl... (none)
                    in cae your temoted to respond to that last comment, go right ahead. I appreciate your taking time to discuss this with me and your respectful reponses (unlike some others in the thread )-:). But I have to get off-line right now.

                     

                    We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                    by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:06:51 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  It'a a method that most people choose (4.00)
          if they live that long. People on their own choose to quit eating and drinking. It produces a peaceful end. Please, please do some research on this and find out what really happens. For heavens sake do you think the people at Hospice would advocate any but the most compassionate steps? It causes the body to produce endorphins to cancel out pain.

          I watched both my parents do this. It was peaceful, in one case, it was transcendent. Really. It's natural, it's normal, millions of people have done it for thousands of years.

          Reframing the news and people's views of our world: HeroicStories.com, free subscriptions.

          by AllisonInSeattle on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 11:56:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  An M.D. friend (none)
            told me this very thing this evening. Her husband passed in this way.  
          •  maybe true (none)
            of course that may be the case that some people feel well from not eating, but im not so sure it's what I would want at the end of my life, or if I were in Terris condition. Gandhi used self imposed starvation to prove a point, and his pain reverberated across india. If he wasnt feeling pain, why did so many people view it as such a great act? Why do millions of muslims starve during the day during the month of ramadan? It's because not having that meal causes pain, hunger pains. Do a google search on the turkish prison hunger fast, you will see that it causes major brain damage, and intense pain. Of course this isnt the same situation as being on the brink of death, but I doubt I would be happy not having my last meal.

            John Kerry 2008, the leader of the youth of America.

            by desiunion on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:09:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Gandhi had fully functioning higher brain function (3.00)
              …in contrast to Mrs. Schaivo and apparently you.

              She can't feel pain and you can't process facts.

              •  its (none)
                its the soul. no one knows what happens when you die, and if you have soul, but we are all going to find out someday. My other point is, this way of having someone end their life is not efficient, and is agonizing for many people who love terri.

                John Kerry 2008, the leader of the youth of America.

                by desiunion on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:28:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  If she can't feel... (none)
                pain, what's the point (meaning) of relieving her suffering by removing her feeding and hydration tubes? Hmmmmmm?

                A man may fish with the worm that hath et of a king and then eat of the fish that hath et of that worm--Shakespeare (Hamlet)

                by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:44:51 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                  •  Quite the contary, my friend... (none)
                    just happens I'm a rabid fundmantalist atheist...
                     Name-calling is especially counterproductive in my case...

                    A man may fish with the worm that hath et of a king and then eat of the fish that hath et of that worm--Shakespeare (Hamlet)

                    by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 03:43:53 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  BTW,,,, (none)
                    you didn't answer the question? Can you?

                    A man may fish with the worm that hath et of a king and then eat of the fish that hath et of that worm--Shakespeare (Hamlet)

                    by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 03:46:22 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'll take the bait. (none)
                      The point of removing the tube is not "to relieve her suffering" (I don't know where you pulled that from), but to give effect to her end-of-life choices, as expressed on her behalf by her husband, confirmed by her court-appointed guardian and her friends, and verified by the prolongued court process.  Get some facts and get some sleep.

                      "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald

                      by Passing Shot on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:02:50 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  but this is not.. (none)
                        an end-of-life case. She's been living in her current circumstamnces for fivteen years and could go on living that way for as long as the average life span. When I was in a coma, I realized that I would not have wanted anyone outside of myself to annihilate me,even though I got into the coma by attempting suicide. Pretty clearly, my will to die
                        was violated by the law and it turns out that the law was right, I didn't really want to die no matter how bad it got. The instinct of self-preservation overwheemed anything else. Do you think that her primoaridally ingrained instinct for self-preservation has been wiped out by the extesive brain damage? If so, can you prove it?  

                        We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                        by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:48:33 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  "End-of life" (none)
                          is defined by the person himself.  According to the witnesses, she did not want to live out her life in this manner.  Apparently for her, "life" was defined as the ability to think, to communicate,to interact without extraordinary measures.  Who are you to tell her she's wrong?

                          "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald

                          by Passing Shot on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:20:49 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not... (none)
                            telling her she's wrong. I think it's highly problemtic that a person can make such a decision until they are atcually faced with being in such conditions as they belive (fear) are horrible becasus they've been trained to believe that "anything is better than suffering and disablity" by
                            a society that is more concerned with cutting csts and elimintating burdens than individual life and..
                            I can TELL you one thing, I've been throuhg somethign you haven't!! I know what it's like to say  you want to do (even believe it profoundly in your head) but when you are actually thrown into a circunstance where death is facing you, you change your mind rather dramatically and precipitously.
                            Under such a circumstance, I would want to be prptected from those who belive they know what I wnated from some irresposnble and careless stamenats I may have made light-years ago!!
                            Until you've experience somehting similar, you can't underytand that.
                              In any case, it's obvious there's no room for disagreement and discussion here.

                            We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                            by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:50:59 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  She can't change her mind. (none)
                            She has no cerebral cortex.  Look, I respect what you went through, and yes, it does give you insight that most of us do not have, but your situation as compared to Schiavo's is apples to oranges.  You have an interesting perspective that is arguably relevant, but it's not dispositive.  As I said on another thread a few days ago, there are 2 rough camps in this -- the pro-"continuation-of-life" camp and the pro-"let's respect the judicial process and not trump the law for one person" camp.  The camps are arguing past each other, as we seem to be doing here.

                            "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald

                            by Passing Shot on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:14:45 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  At last... (none)
                            I'm beginning to see some light shine through here.
                            I'm not fundmantally concerned with Terri Schaivo, but with much more ambiguous cases where I think there aren't satisfactory protections in place to deal with the complexity of modern technlogy.
                               The best example that comes to mind is the patients in post-encephalitic catatonia or any case
                            which involves the use of feeing tubes and hydration
                            in which the patient is, for al intents and purposes, identical externally to Terri Schavio's state. Or, better yet, an individual in a PVS but not nearly the same extent of brain damage as Terri Schavo. This person can change her mind, specifically. (Yes, this is hypothectical, but that's what I deal in as a philosopher--that's my trade, as it were. Howverem, it's also very plausible and definitely occurs.)
                               What if he/she had left no DNR or other indication of his/her will. What is to be done in such a case?

                            We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                            by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:41:22 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  aoeu (none)
                  The point is to respect her wishes.  Obviously some feel they can dictate how others live and die.
                  •  How do you know what her... (none)
                    wishes are?

                    We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                    by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 05:26:46 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  aoeu (none)
                      OMG are you dense?  This was judicated ad nauseum in the courts.
                      •  Are the courts infallible... (none)
                        interpreters of an individual's even synchronic, let alone diacronic, wishes? What if she changed her mind, assuming for the sake of argument that she could, over those fifteen years without being able to express it? Isn't this what the disability folks are legitimately concerned about? As of right now, she's probably not concious of her own state? She doesn't therefore have any preferences the one way or the other. Who's to decide in such circumtances?

                        We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                        by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:37:32 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  aoeu (none)
                          She has no mind to change so there is no point in "assuming for the sake of agrument that she [can]."  We might as well assume for the sake of argument that the moon is made of green cheese.  Her husband is the one to decide.  I'm not sure why you are being wo willfully ignorant.
                          •  she has.no mind.. (none)
                            so I must take it that you've solved the extraordianary millenial puzzle of the mind/bidy problem. What exactly is "the mind", pray tell?

                            We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                            by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:52:46 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  aoeu (none)
                            I have no time to waste with somebody who will not educate themselves.  Remain stupid if you want to.
                          •  I'll take that... (none)
                            as a no!
                               And stupid is defined as "those who diagree with me"...what a remarkable discovery...controversy isn't tolerated on dkos!!! Such open-minded liberalism. Impressive indeed.

                            We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                            by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:55:49 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  i like how (none)
                        your insist on insulting people who dont agree with your viewpoint.

                        John Kerry 2008, the leader of the youth of America.

                        by desiunion on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:13:16 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  aoeu (none)
                          You can have your own viewpoint.  You cannot have your own facts.  One of the few things I cannot suffer are those who keep themselves willfully ignorant.
                          •  is it a fact.. (none)
                            that you have resolved the mind/body problem and are therefore now able to answer my question: what exactly is the mind and how is it related to the brain or not?
                              Please be careful how you use the word mind, especially if you're not trained in the philosophy of mind. Does a dog have a mind, a cat, a mouse, a frof, an insect. It is indeed arguable that insects have a sort of collective mind which supervenes (have you ever heard of the supervenience thesis?)
                            on the the entire ant population? I think Douglas Hafster argued that once with Daniel Dennet. Stupid fellows!!

                            We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                            by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 10:39:19 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i took honors philosophy (none)
                            I dont remember much, but I do remember going over the mind body problem. I remember reading some long essay about artificial intelligence. I did well in that class, but beer hath erased my brain.

                            John Kerry 2008, the leader of the youth of America.

                            by desiunion on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:19:58 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well... (none)
                            you might ot mihght not remember the relevance of the mind/body problem for the current discussion. I've been studying and reseraching these types of questions, almost excslusively, for fifteen years and I'll just tell you this without going into details: Most people have no idea what the f** they are talking about when they throw around concepts like mind, beleifs, desires and thoughts ands sensations.
                               Lay off the beer a little bit, BTW, not good for the "mind" or "mind/brain" or just "brain", as you prefer to call it. (-;

                            We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                            by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 11:42:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Post-debate analyisis: (none)
                        not that's very bad philosophy right there. I was trying to get the answers to some rather profound questions here in the traditional Socratic (maiuetic) style. I'm not INTERESTED in the f*+ing Schaivo case! I asked the question: how do you know what her desires are (or were)? Indeed, how does anyone know what anyone else's  desires and wishes really are? If you think that's not a problem, please take some courses in philosophy.
                        At any rate, you don't respond to such a serious question about propositional attititude ascriptions by insulting the questioner....

                        We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                        by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 10:28:09 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  Its relieving her (none)
                  of the burden of staying alive to keep her immature relatives happy.  Its about letting go and letting people die, something the living owe the dying.  (Ask any terminal patient about this, at some point people deserve the right to stop).

                  Its relieving her of being turned into a trophy or an object in a struggle.  Its also relieving her and that body of hers of being a symbol for something that is far too big for any one person or one body to symbolize.

                  Its not about her suffering, but about her dignity, and respect for the person she once was, the person these people supposedly love.  

                  In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

                  by a gilas girl on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:01:53 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  completely off-topic question: (none)
                    what happened to your postings, agg?  Are you no longer one of the "Irregulars"?  You're one of the very few people on this blog that I still enjoy.

                    "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald

                    by Passing Shot on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:05:09 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I've been in the middle of a family crisis (none)
                      of late, and the best I've been able to do is post some comments. Don't have the time or the moments of peace and quiet to be able to think through anything more than responses to other people's postings at the moment.

                      Hopefully things will calm down and I can return to some more in-depth interaction soon.

                      In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

                      by a gilas girl on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:19:38 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  The... (none)
                    burden of staying alive is something I very often want to be relived of, my friend (and I mean thos two words sincerely). But whenever I try (three times so far, I've outdone Silvia Plath!), they bring me to the hospital and pump my stomach of its contents. Then they lock me up for about a month or so to be "treated" for this mistaken idea that my life is a burden on myself and my family. Of course, it is: an unbelievable,montrous , horrid fardel. I couldn't live if not for SS disability insurance and my mother's patient help. She's 75 years old and she has to take care of ME.
                       Often, I can do absolutely nothing. I just lie in bed and wait for death to come...when it will come.My terror of death is really, BTW,the only thing that keeps me alive.
                       Do you want to relieve me of my burden of living (don't say it's not, you haven't experienced it). Or the burden to society and, obviously, my mother of my burdonseome existence?
                    To answer my own question: sometimes I think I will and then I change my mind.
                     Wrt to terminal patients, my father (died of cancer at age 48) fought until his last dying f**ing breath to stay around and see his chidlren
                    grew and loved his wife more and more profoundly
                    until he finally expired after about seven years of "hopeless" struggle in which he tried every single excruciatingly painful experimental therapy
                    (they actually pulled out all of his teeth without anethesia) to get rid of the beast that was ravaging him and tearing him away from those he loved and cherished in this world (the only one we have).
                       That, to me, was dying with DIGNITY!!! Fighting!!....exactly the way he lived.
                      I'll leave you with that thouhght.

                       "Do not go gentle into that good night.
                         Rage, RAGE against the dying of the light.""
                       

                    We should treat all the trivial things of life seriously and all serious things with a sincere and studied triviality---Wilde

                    by gilgamesh on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:17:17 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm ahead of both you and Sylvia (none)
                      so let's not try to play the one-upmanship game here; its deeply distasteful. That's precisely my point, none of these situations are comparable, because each is as different as every pregnancy is; that's why there can't really be universals about them, its why we allow people to make their own decisions.  Having watched people I care for who both wanted to die and who didn't want to die, die rather difficult deaths, as well as having spent many years seriously asking myself the question if I wanted to continue living, and sometimes acting to end my life, I have a small glimpse into the myriad of factors that go into this.  That's why I can say that dying isn't always bad, nor is it the worst thing that can happen.  For those who want to fight for their lives, those folks should and will fight and those folks will have my support.  But the point that your post illustrates is that we can't have some all encompassing rule about this, because every death is unique, as are the circumstances and relationships that surround it. This is the reason we respect the wishes of the person who is dying, and the courts have decided that the wishes of Terri Schiavo are represented by Michael Schiavo and they've held for those wishes.

                      I've watched too many terminal patients who were ready to die have to "fight" their relatives (or to fight the responsibility they feel to their relatives) when what they needed (and what would have been kinder) was to help let them know they didn't owe the living anything.  

                      In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

                      by a gilas girl on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:11:00 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Actually rather common (none)
          and the choice of phrasing used in this poll is very distorting: Theresa Schiavo doesn't feel "hungry"; she doesn't feel anything since the feeling part of her brain is liquid.  Even is she were conscious of those kinds of sensations, however, she wouldn't feel "hungry" as a result of having a feeding tube removed: that kind of nourishment doesn't register on a hunger scale, and the process of removing artificial nourishment methods does not create a bodily condition where "hunger" is relevant: the bodily systems slowly shut down (its rather gradual) and the patient dies peacefully.  When systems shut down, one doesn't feel "hunger".  Anyone who has visited, cared for or visited/attended to a terminal patient knows this.  Hunger is just not something that people in the end stages of systems failure feel.  

          There's far too much "identification" going on in these discussions where people are assuming that what is happening to Mrs. Schiavo is the same thing that happens to them when they work through lunch. These are absolutely inappropriate analogies.

          In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

          by a gilas girl on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 05:30:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  look at no 2 (none)
        starvation

        n 1: a state of extreme hunger resulting from lack of essential nutrients over a prolonged period [syn: famishment] 2: the act of depriving of food or subjecting to famine; "the beseigers used starvation to induce surrender"; "they were charged with the starvation of children in their care" [syn: starving]

        Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

        John Kerry 2008, the leader of the youth of America.

        by desiunion on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:10:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  why must you insist on spreading misinformation? (none)
      She is not starving. Period.
      She is not feeling pain.
      You've said this multiple times and have been corrected multiple times.
      •  look (1.00)
        you dont know soul, i dont know soul, ill accept dehydration and starvation as the same thing.

        John Kerry 2008, the leader of the youth of America.

        by desiunion on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:51:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  compare the definitions (1.00)
        dehydration

        n 1: dryness resulting from the removal of water [syn: desiccation] 2: depletion of bodily fluids 3: the process of extracting moisture [syn: desiccation, drying up, evaporation]

        Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

        starvation

        n 1: a state of extreme hunger resulting from lack of essential nutrients over a prolonged period [syn: famishment] 2: the act of depriving of food or subjecting to famine; "the beseigers used starvation to induce surrender"; "they were charged with the starvation of children in their care" [syn: starving]

        Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

        We are keeping food and water away, not extracting fluid from Terri. so lets call it what it is.

        John Kerry 2008, the leader of the youth of America.

        by desiunion on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:15:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Alive? hard to say. (none)
      Medically speaking she has no brain function. She can't exactly feel anything. She is not aware of her own existence anymore.
  •  poll (4.00)
    Just my 2 cents, but your poll answers suck.

    "I have lived with several Zen masters -- all of them cats." - Eckhart Tolle

    by catnip on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:17:16 PM PST

    •  Indeed (none)
      Though I am giving the benefit of the doubt and say the sheer exasperation was typing when the poll was made.  Goodness knows I have said some pretty inhumane things in my study while watching this whole sad debacle.

      "There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life." -- Frank Zappa

  •  Hey all (4.00)
    You guys are damn lucky I'm up late working on a paper.

    OK. So let's dive right in.

    They were granted a rehearing of the denial of the tube insertion claim last week. The one that ws updated with the ADA and other claims, remember?

    That was denied by Whittmore, I believe.

    So anyway, this is not a new rehashing of the case.  Again, it's a review of the lower court's decision, under a deferential standard, and the denial of the TRO will likely be upheld.

    In other news, the FL legislature will be considering another Terri bill tomorrow.

    •  Thanks for the clarification (none)
      I'm a drooling idiot on all things legal.

      I think that God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability. -- Oscar Wilde

      by Page van der Linden on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:23:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  FL (none)
      is the craziest state in the this crazy crazy country.

      There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated...insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason.-NoFx

      by SairaLV on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:23:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Think For Just One Minute: (4.00)
        A state with 10 million people who have just realized that they will never, ever, ever be allowed to die.

        You're about to see history's largest, angriest and slowest riot.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:33:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's why I'm so surprised (none)
          they keep pushing this. This seems like the LAST state that wants to get involved in right to die cases. Hell, by the polls it doesn't appear that any state is a good one to battle this so why do they keep trying? Do they WANT an angry mob?

          There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated...insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason.-NoFx

          by SairaLV on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:34:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I thought I was good... (none)
          ... at adding a little levity when introducing important ideas, but you win. The mental image alone is priceless.

          And to be something more than a cheerleader for snark, how about that idea, folks? In a state which draws oodles of income from retirees, how should this be framed?

          •  Well I can't speak for the majority of older folks (none)
            I'm neither in the majority, nor the minority for that matter (I'm 43), but many older folks in my area have money, and duel residence (quite a few of them overseas) and wouldn't consider themselves true Floridians, they're only here 5-6 months out the year and only for the sunshine, country club golf courses and warm weather.

            If they really needed end of life intervention (one way or the other), I'm sure they could buy it.

        •  Thanks for that comforting thought Gooserock (none)
          I need to get out of this state, and soon.

          No offense to you, just the thought of being lumped in with all the crazies here kinda sets me off.

      •  Not crazy. (none)
        Corrupt. I live here and I've witnessed it first hand.
    •  I read a snippet about the FL legislature (none)
      it said the full legislature wouldn't be able to take up a bill until next Tuesday.  

      Guess Jeb wants his own futile care law.

    •  we love you georgia! (none)
      Except when you get all cranky and stuff...I'm just sayin'...
      :)

      "I have lived with several Zen masters -- all of them cats." - Eckhart Tolle

      by catnip on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:51:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Presence of Santorum at hospice this evening? (none)
      what does that tell us?
      all hell is going to break loose is my opinion.  
    •  Georgia? (none)
      Just heard that they want the court to - damn, I don't know the latin. Start from scratch, essentially. That's not good, is it? Any precedent?
      •  De novo (4.00)
        Here is what I've figured out.  The Schindlers filed, in federal district court, a request for an emergeny TRO based on a "miraculous event" which occured over the weekend after her trube was removed.  

        In that filing (which I would recommend everyone read, the Schindlers alleged not only that Mrs. Schiavo's due process rights were violated, but also that theirs were as well.  Remember how the court before picked out language from the congressional record that said a mandatory stay was not required? Well, the Schindlers found a quote from Frist that said something like "there is no provision that allows the court to deny insertion of the tube."

        If you read their filing, they're quick snarky towarsd the 11th court of appeals, which I think if a stupid thing to do if you're plannng on arguing in front of that body.

        So the gist of their filing is that the court should essentially have ordered a new trial on whether she is in a PVS, whether she can talk, etc.  

        Anyway, here is the Schindlers appeal, here is ichael's response, and here is the Whittmore opinion.

        Now, that opinion was issued on March 25th.  They should have filed an appeal by that Saturday, but didn't.  

        So what this latest news means is that the 11th Cir. gave them leave to file a petition for appeal. That's it. No ruling on the merits of the case, no ruling on whether a new trial should have been ordered, this is just procedural at this point.

        Having reviewing the documents, I think it will be a pretty hard sell that the statute requires a new trial.  

  •  I Think I Figured This Out... (none)
    You have a certain amount of time to give a "notice of appeal" to a ruling. I have no idea what that time limit is in the Federal Court. The last Federal Ruling in this case was on Saturday Morning by the middle district of Florida. It sounds like that they are saying that they'll consider a petition to appeal that ruling...
    A federal appeals court early Wednesday agreed to consider a petition for a new hearing on whether to reconnect Terri Schiavo's feeding tube...

    ...I'm guessing that both sides will still have to file briefs.
  •  Ok, so here's something (4.00)
    I've been thinking about with respect to the Schiavo case.

    So these people who want her to be kept alive are self-proclaimed Worshippers of Bush God, right?

    And if one believes in God as these people do, one believes in an afterlife that is much better than our life on earth.  I mean, you get to hang with Jesus and stuff, right?

    So why the fuck do these goddamn wingnuts want her to live?  I mean, they believe in god and the afterlife and all of that, so they should believe that Ms. Schiavo would be much happier after death... right?

    Wait, I forgot.  We're talking about wingnuts.  Who don't think.

    I think that God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability. -- Oscar Wilde

    by Page van der Linden on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:27:28 PM PST

    •  I've often wondered that myself (none)
      it seems as if they're the most afraid of death; Falwell has a living will to keep him alive as long as possible, but WHY delay going to heaven, if that's what he believes? It should be those who aren't sure there's an afterlife that should be worried.

      There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated...insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason.-NoFx

      by SairaLV on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:31:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  God wants to talk to Jerry! (none)
        And I don't think Jerry is looking forward to it! This confirms my belief that they don't truly believe their own bullshit. If Rev. Fawell truly believed what he preached, he wouldn't be afraid of going to meet his maker.

        I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire

        by baracon on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:55:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe they realize (none)
        that once they die they will be judged...

        In a democratic society some are guilty, but all are responsible. -Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

        by a gilas girl on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 05:36:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  hypocritical (none)
      is how I describe these people. If they're such staunch believers in the afterlife why do they fear death so much? Do they lack the faith that they proclaim they have so much of? They drive me nuts!
    •  They Do Think--They Think All the Time (none)
      And if you check your calendar, they're generally on the rise.

      We regard these people as errant versions of ourselves at our own peril.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:40:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Because to them the soul resides in the body. (none)
      not the mind.
    •  it's simple, you guys.... (none)
      ....they're really afraid they're going to hell.

      ... there never was a revolution unless there were some oppressive and intolerable conditions against which to revolute. -- Twain

      by FemiNazi on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 11:08:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  because they think she's going to hell (none)
      that was an argument her attorney made in order to try and prolong this spectacle.  I'm serious.
  •  Red-White-and-Blue Screen of Death (none)

    (Sorry for the repost; I won't repeat again.)

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:30:07 PM PST

  •  mapKY's diary tonight reveals their psychic powers (none)
    i should have gone to bed...but, NOOOO...my oppositional /defiance kicks in.
    next time, i'm listening to mapKY.
     
  •  more info about this (none)
    http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/politics/11263208.htm


    Federal appeals court grants additional review in Schiavo case

    JONATHAN LANDRUM Jr.

    Associated Press

    ATLANTA - A federal appeals court early Wednesday agreed to consider a petition by Terri Schiavo's parents for a new hearing on whether to reconnect their severely brain-damaged daughter's feeding tube.

    The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled without comment on Schiavo's 12th day without nourishment. Last week, the same court twice ruled against Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who are trying to keep her alive.

    In seeking a new hearing late Tuesday, attorneys for Schiavo's parents argued that the District Court "committed plain error when it reviewed only the state court case and outcome history."

    Now, the court will consider the request for a new hearing in federal court, based on the facts of the case, rather than whether previous Florida court rulings have met legal standards under state law.

    There was no time frame for the court to consider the motion, but the Schindler's attorneys asked to have the tube reinserted immediately "in light of the magnitude of what is at stake and the urgency of the action required."

  •  She's Catholic (none)
    I read or saw somewhere -- can't find it now, lost in the morass of media coverage of this -- that the grounds for the most recent appeal were going to be that she's Catholic . . . thus, assisted suicide (essentially what this is and what she did by allegedly saying to her husband that she would not want to live in this situation) would consign her mortal soul to hell.  And that no Catholic would do so in her right mind.  And that, therefore, she was not in her right mind when she said so.

    Seriously.  And that she no longer has a mind matters not; if you're Catholic, it's the soul that counts . . . and no number of neurologists have figured out how to determine if the soul is dead.  If I do remember this correctly, then the court will be hearing not from neurologists but from theologists.  What a country.

  •  So the repubs are back (none)
    at their same old tricks...her kidneys are gone along with other organs..and now they want to revive her...sound like torture to me.

    *We live in a Nation of LAWS* 11th Circuit

    by Chamonix on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:20:53 AM PST

  •  Santorum was on Scarborough tonight (none)
    insisting that the courts got it wrong after the Congressional vote to "give Terri a new hearing" instead of reviewing the case. Apparently he pissed off someone who is pushing this through.

    Don't like the way something was litigated? Nevermind, just scream loud enough with enough crazy people about how you got an unfair trial, and hopefully Congress will pick it up and using a Bill of Attainder demand a whole new hearing, not based on any of the previous evidence being reviewed.

    By the way, I couldn't take your poll, I found all the answers to be distasteful.

  •  Lawyer-esque help w/ this one: (4.00)
    This CNN article provides more detail:

    The lead lawyer for Terri Schiavo's parents filed an emergency petition with the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta late Tuesday, contending he has found a new argument to have Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted.

    The petition submitted by attorney David Gibbs said the federal judges who rejected the previous efforts to have Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted violated a Supreme Court precedent that requires them to consider the full record, not just the procedural history from the state court.

    The appeals court granted Gibbs' request late Tuesday to file the new petition despite having set a deadline of last Saturday morning for any such appeals. Gibbs said in his filing that the new issues were the result of "further research, reflection and consultation" since the same court rejected his petition last week.

    "Where a state court order extinguishes a fundamental right, the district court must review the record before the state court to determine whether the factual basis for the order satisfied a heightened Federal standard of proof," the petition said.

    The federal judges could not have considered the full record, Gibbs argued, since it had not been filed with the federal courts.

    Basically, the Schindlers want the 11th Circuit to consider the case "de novo" without really crediting anything the state courts have done in the decade this case has wound its way back and forth through the Florida courts.  The hook he's using for this is some Supreme Court precedent (I can't even guess at which one; any precedent wouldn't apply directly because this case is so unconventional).  Of course, it's hard for me to figure how ANYTHING that's been brought up in the latest petition changes the facts that 1) the Schindlers will not win on the merits of the case and 2) the law that got the case into federal court is unconstitutional.  

    Without seeing the brief that the Schindlers' lawyer filed, I can't really comment on how strong an argument they've got, but just based on what I know from the case, I'd surmise that this is a desperate last-ditch attempt that the 11th Circuit has agreed to consider strictly in order to provide a sense of finality to the whole mess.  I cannot envision a scenario in which the court order Terri's feeding tube reinserted.

    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. --George Bernard Shaw

    by Categorically Imperative on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:19:26 AM PST

  •  Pigs Fly, Umbrella Makers Rule Earth!!!! (none)
    Rupert Murdoch criticizes Dim Son and GOP Congress!

    Check out what the NY Post, equal opportunity employer for illiterate Aussie and Brit expats, has to say this morning:

    The time has come to let Terri Schiavo die with dignity - and in peace.

    The battle over her fate was mostly a noble one, and always a heart-rending one, but it has turned into a circus.

    Nothing anyone can do will alter the outcome now. The arrests will make no difference; yesterday's high-profile arrival of the Rev. Jesse Jackson's stretch limousine will change nothing; Randall Terry's publicity-mongering is pointless.

    The best of America - two sides fighting hard for their beliefs, using the law, not violence - is about to be overtaken by the worst of America; showboating, paranoia, lawlessness.

    Enough. It's over. Let her die in peace. Terri Schiavo's parents have fought the good fight, and they have lost.

    Terri Schaivo's legion of supporters - personal and political, honorable and otherwise - have made their point, again and again. They, too, have lost.

    Now comes the beauty part:

    Congress, to its discredit, added endgame drama to the debate. So did President Bush; it was not his finest hour.

    It was always the courts -- state and federal -- that should have had the final word in this dramatic tragedy.

    And the courts have spoken -- in Florida and at the federal level -- on the merits of the case, and on the law.

    It is time for the lawyers and lawmakers to go away. It is time for Terri's family to mourn -- and to fight -- in private. After all, that's what the American people want.

    It's tempting to think that the Post is being flooded with LTEs and emails that favor allowing Ms. Schiavo to die, but to be fair, their editorials on the subject have been quite circumspect, and have spoken of the court decisions as being proper.  Their news coverage has been as sleazy as you might expect, and the GOPerative bottomfeeder John Podhoretz has been as predictable as a solar eclipse on the opinion pages.

    BTW, while the media and the far right has been obsessing about this matter, 31 more American soldiers died in Iraq this month, along with two Italians and one Bulgarian.  The number of dead Iraqis is, of course, far greater.  You'd think the alleged Culture Of Life might take a moment or two to utter a few prayers on their behalf, or to stage a vigil outside Dover Air Force Base, demanding that the people responsible for this obscene neo-colonialist endeavor be held accountable.

    "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

    by JJB on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:24:35 AM PST

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