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That's how close we are.

Watching Frist join the "religious persecution" bandwagon brings to mind the Nazis.

I'm sorry if some of you may think I'm overstating the case.  But I see it all to clearly...

Hollywood is evil.

Hollywood?  That's the Jews.

The liberal media is evil.

The liberal media?  That's the Jews.

Folks, we are at a critical turning point in our nation's history.  Make no mistake about it.

(more)

The unspoken reference in both of the comments, above, is "the Jews."  The anti-Semitism of those types of statements is more than implied.

It is blatant.

As a point of reference, I am not Jewish.  My wife is Jewish.  Many of my best friends are Jewish.  Nearly all are Democrats.

And the ironic thing is that I think I see it more clearly than they do.

I cannot recall a time when I have felt more frightened for our country.   Is it the general uninformed nature of our populace?  (Certainly a factor.)  Is it the general disdain for intricacy and detail that forbids rational discusssion in America in favor of a Jerry-Springer-like moral determination?  ("You're a slut and you don't deserve him!") Or is it that some Democrats want to search for "common ground" when that "common ground" may easily and quickly lead to their own demise?

I think that is where we stand... on the precipice  of a new and murderous fascism.

I am not comforted by those who say, "That could never happen here."  I see it, I hear it, I feel it, I smell it.

It is happening.  Perhaps it is done in code words, but it is happening.

I will stand against this fascism.  I will argue against accommodation.  (There is no accommodation with these fascists.)

We must resist. We must remember the lessons of the Nazis.  No one owns the absolute truth.  

The absolute truth does not exist.

And those who are convinced that they hold the absolute truth are the most dangerous of all.

We are thisclose to Nazi-style fascism.

I am not exaggerating for political gain.

I am scared.

And you should be scared, too...

Update [2005-4-17 13:49:44 by Bob Johnson]:

First, thanks to all for contributing so much to the discussion. I just filled out my reading list for the next two years.

I also want to clarify that, while a particular incident coincided with the writing of this diary, I had been thinking about writing something along these lines for the last several weeks... At least since the Schiavo fiasco. Frist's participation in the zealotry this morning served as a tipping point.

Finally, I want to be clear to those who asked that I am not going anywhere. I find these times to be frightening for many reasons (the gutting of public education at a time when we desperately need a more intelligent citizenry; the rise of religious fanaticism; etc.), but I am not cowed by the zealots, fanatics or haters.

But I believe we need to be vigilant. And loud. And strong. This diary is serves as my own vigilance.

Originally posted to Bob Johnson on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:13 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Reminds me of a great diary by Stirling Newberry (4.00)
    You can read it HERE

    When the Demcoratic Party lost power, and wanted to get back in, they tossed the peace activists out, so they could support Dubya in Iraq. I still voted for Democrats, because I am not a peacenick, and the alternative is so much worse.

    When the Democratic Party stayed out of power, then they tossed the environmentalists out, so they didn't have to raise fuel efficiency standards.  I still voted for Democrats, because I am not an environmentalist, and the alternative is so much worse.

    I think you can see where it is going.  It was a tremendous piece in my opinion.  And yes, I am scared.  I am terrified.  I am also glad that I devote every day of my life to pushing back, and pushing forward progressive principles.

    Tim

      •  Anne Frank to the courtesy phone (none)
        Or this diary Anne Frank to the courtesy phone posted on Nov. 12.

        I book marked it.

        Some of you rich men have to be taught that all the world cannot be bribed into condoning your offences. -- Sherlock Holmes

        by Carnacki on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:26:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I read it with interest.. (4.00)
          The writer seems to ignore the fact that the main reason Jews couldn't get out of Europe is that no one would let them in, including the United States. It is one of the greatest shames this country bears, in my opinion, that when the administration at the time KNEW Jews were being persecuted and killed, they did nothing to help them escape. They actually cut the immigration quotas from the countries with the most Jews trying to get out. So it didn't matter that the Franks could afford to go to another country, no country would let them in. England did let in many Jewish children, but not their parents. A few of the children were reunited with a parent, but most lost them to the ovens. But his point on why she didn't see it coming is interesting. In the 1930's, politics was not thought to be a suitable subject for discussion in front of the children. So how would she know what was going on, and how would she know what might happen?

          What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

          by Demfem on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:01:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  WTF is wrong with (none)
            These "Christians" who take a Jewish religion based on love and end up hating the mother religion? Remember christianity was originally a jewish cult-only later did they say it was for all people.
            Jesus is Jewish.
            The Old Testament is a Jewish book.
            The ten commandments is a Jewish document. (We also break one of the commandments when we work on Saturday and worship on Sunday.)
            My old grandmother is right-how can they do this to God's chosen people?

            You're not a true Christian if you give into the hate-sounds like a sin to me...

    •  That diary was one of the best I've read here (4.00)
      Glad you pointed it out  because I missed it the first time!
    •  Throw the Jew Down the Well (none)
      Check this out:

      http://www.campchaos.com/show.php?iID=866

      Comedian Sacha Baron Cohen (aka. Ali G) could be one of the funniest television minds of our time. Watch his "Borat" character dupe a bar full of rednecks into singing one of the most heinous antisemitic songs ever. This is satire at its finest!

      Sponge Bob, Mandrake, Cartoons. That's how your hard-core islamahomocommienazis work.

      by Benito on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:31:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  & Stirling had chilling postelect'n thoughts (none)
      http://www.bopnews.com/archives/002338.html

      America, narrowly, voted for National Socialism - a system by which the industrial and technological sections of the economy are taxes and pillaged for the sinews of a militarized economy, while the hinterland is given access to land, social status and oil in order to hold on to previous value relationships. Nazi comparisons are facile - because they lead to the wrong conclusion. Americans did not vote for racism, bigotry, death camps or any such will o the whisp. They voted for an ossification of the social structure, and placing a certain nationalist mania in a privileged social and political position. The army cannot be questioned, and those traits which make it possible to fill that army are national imperatives.

      The campaign hinged on this - the Swift Boats and marriage attacks were not distractions, but encapsulations of two simple points. The first was a way of saying that Kerry would betrayed the military, and therefore he would cut the military to balance the budget. Simple terms: make the cost fall on someone else. The second was a way of saying that the social changes that come with a high production, high value added economy - namely a cosmopolitan society - would happen under Kerry.

      That is Kerry was presented, accurately, as being a threat to the social and economic hierarchy to the land owning classes. Land, which holds its value through having cheap gasoline, demands a military machine to obtain the oil and to maintain the social inequality should it come to that. Kerry was, accurately, presented as someone who would not go to war for oil.

      If one looks at the map - the division - between the large blocks of the country whose value is sunk into rent and the smaller city areas that generate value through capital - is clear.

      This social structure - paralleling the ancien regime of France is based on two alliances. The oligarchic rich place their faith in Church and State, they ally with the landowning peasants that stock the army, against the tradesman and the very bottom day laborers. The hieararchical society tries to tax by forced savings the tradesmen, and keep the "rabble" in line with force. The hiearchy is not a mere marriage of convenience - each knows that it needs the other. The reactionary side of the ledger is not cleavable between "economic and social conservatives" - because the wealthy knows it needs a military, and the miltiary knows it needs someone to batter the rising professional classes into line.

      The liberal side of the ledger was, until not long ago, "Whig" - trying to hold the current situation together, because it is better than having a catclysmic conflict. The death spiral of the Whig point of view is that reactionaries want all of the social surplus, and in fact need all of the social surplus, in order to be able to hold their value system in place.

      The basic problem goes back to the New Deal - FDR used civilian federal spending, and mandating of universality to pump money out to the country side. This had two effects: one it slowed the rush into the cities, and two it prevented deflation by propping up buying power.

      The elites of the Democratic Party felt that as long as this pump was in place, that everything else would work out, and that therefore any compromise would be worth it in the end. They also felt that eventually there would be a gruesome enough meltdown for them too retake power. They were therefore willing to sell out over and over again, and left themselves in a politically untenable position. What they did not realize was two important facts.

      The first is that the renting class must have everything - forever. There is no "enough", as the whole economy expands, so do their demands. They don't want any given standard of living, they want to remain, relatively, on top. You can't out race them, because they demand to win.

      The second is the right wing has a replacement system for the New Deal: namely, a militarized society, where prisons, air craft carriers, defense procurment, homeland security and contracting in endless foreign wars - they pay truck drivers in Iraq more than many doctors in the US make - would replace civilian domestic spending. This trade has two important benefits for the parasitic classes: first they don't feel like parasites, on the contrary, they are the holy crusaders, the most important function of society. Second, it means their social structure - of moral and intellectual rigidity and bloody mindness - is the important one. They win, economically, politically, and personally....

      The oil burning classes voted for "do what you have to do to take the oil" - which means cannibalizing the rest of society to keep the oil flowing. Paradoxically, this ensures, once the oil is gone, a collapse and rush into the cities - it has happened since Rome undercut its own agrarian economic system during the late Republic, and often through history. The closest parallel to our own is when France devastated its decentralized trade economy by driving out the Protestants.

      The irony is that this current situtation is the result of Republican policies - when Reagan put the US on a strict diet of money=oil, it meant that the most energy efficient industries - technology - and the most energy efficient social structures - cities - would win. Having won the Reaganomics game at the end of the 1990's the Republicans wanted to change the rules again, to a different game that they can't lose: namely, the miltiarized economy. It was the military budget in the 1980's that kept them going in the first place. As soon as that massive pork factory was cut, wealth again began moving towards high liquidity, high production and high density forms of capital.

      Now, they want to undo this, because it has turned out badly for them - as the coasts outpaced the interior in earnings.

      So that is the conflict - the lower middle and wealthy against the lowest and the professional class. It is a recipe for violence, because there is no compromise - one social-economic system or the other will win out. It is a recipe for constitutional, not democratic, change - because the people themselves are bitterly divided. It is also a recipe, as history shows, for election fraud and manipulation, as the side with the "tyranny of the majority" seeks to selectively disenfranchise the other, to hold on to the extraordinary powers of a constitutional moment.

      It is winner take all.

      That essay, plus what Orcinus writes, gives me serious chills.  

      But still we will win.  

      And when we do, may we be gracious in our victory, far moreso than the Right (if that is even the proper word anymore) is being in their moment of ascendance.  May we break this ugly cycle.  because this will be a long bitter struggle and it will tax every resource we have not to be warped by it.  But if we win, yet let the pendulum swing again, careening wildly in a country filled with bitterness, ... in the end we will still have lost.

        Marisacat has written about this, where this careening back and forth will take our nation in fifty years time, and I think that we all need to bear that in mind as we navigate our hope and despair and plan and fight these necessary battles.  We MUST win, but more than that, we must change the terms of this horribly destructive cycle.  

  •  Jeebus Hubert Humphrey Christos (4.00)
    a completely snarkless post.

    Visit: pastordan, susanhu, maryscott oconnor, jerome a paris and Welshman at Booman Tribune

    by BooMan23 on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:11:43 PM PDT

    •  I'm scared. (4.00)
      In all seriousness.

      And when I, as a fallen-away Irish Catholic, see it before my wife and my many Jewish friends, I am more scared.

      We are living in dangerous times.

      Joe Lieberman has no idea how much much damage he is doing.

      •  I think Joe (4.00)
        is operating under the maxim: "You go to war with ragheads with the administration you have...not necessarily the administration you wish you had."  

        Oops...I just compounded the hysteria.

        Visit: pastordan, susanhu, maryscott oconnor, jerome a paris and Welshman at Booman Tribune

        by BooMan23 on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:23:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You're a mensch (3.90)
        And if you were Jewish yourself, you would have, by virtue of evolution, a sixth sense as to when it's time to evacuate.

        Those Jews who didn't have this are all gone now, sadly.

        So listen to your wife!

        The theofascists are skirting this issue carefully by including Israel in their end-times fantasy. Mel Gibson threw a fly in their ointment. But their avowed love of Jews (look at e.g. Wolfowitz) is tantamount to their love of blacks (Clarence Thomas!) and hispanics ("Abu Gonzales!"). I.e. window dressing; a fig leaf.

        Anyway we're OK for the moment here in CA ruled by the son of a Nazi. What is happening is we are all having to re-learn that the knife blade is, in fact, sharp...and will cut you.

        The dark at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming age.

        by peeder on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:27:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Of course, peeder, there are so many similarities (4.00)
          ... between Irish Catholics and Jews...

          I often joke with my Jewish friend that the difference between Irish Catholic guilt and Jewish guilt is that the Irish Catholics blame their feelings on someone else and punch the closest person in the nose, while the Jews blame themselves and go into therapy.

          •  My sister's theory (4.00)
            is the Irish catholics were one of the 12 lost tribes of Israel, and she cites as proof the fact both tribes say "shite."

            Clearly an honored tradition that would survive through the ages.

            The dark at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming age.

            by peeder on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:53:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Everyone knows Jesus was Irish... (4.00)
              The proof? He stayed at home into his thirties, followed huis Dad into the Trades, and had a Mum who thought he was God.

              DFooK

              Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight, that dance around your head.

              by deepfish on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:38:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Umm... (none)
                Hate to disappoint you, but he was clearly Jewish--

                he lived at home until he was 30.
                He had a mother who thought he was God
                And he thought she was a virgin. :)

                :)

                •  Quite possibly he was French (none)
                  His "turning the other cheek" bespeaks a foreshadowing of a certain "surrender monkey" attitude.

                  ...He had a well stated diet preference for Merlot and baguettes

                  ...He had an demonstrated aversion to regular bathing(hence the walking on water).

                  DFooK

                  Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight, that dance around your head.

                  by deepfish on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:24:27 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  This makes me wonder... (4.00)
          ...if the urgency I have felt going way back to the summer of 2000, contemplating W Bush as a candidate, that things were going to get desperate has to do with the fact that my grandfather's mother's family were conversos, Sephardic Jews who left Spain during the Inquisition. Virtually every night for nearly five years I have a nightmare that I have a short time to gather all my belongings and flee.

          They weren't the only branch of my family who had to flee--there were also Huguenots fleeing Catholic persecution, Swiss Mennonites fleeing Calvinist persecution, Germans fleeing Prussian militarism, Irish Catholics fleeing British domination, Baptists fleeing oppression in England only to meet with persecution in the Colonies...

          'Scuze me, I should start packing.

          -- Life is tough: Three out of three die. Now shut up and deal. ~Ring Lardner Jr.

          by Eleftheria on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:13:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sounds like you have a high dosage (3.00)
            Be careful of leaving the frying pan only to fall into the fire.

            The dark at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming age.

            by peeder on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:17:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm thinking of New Zealand... (4.00)
              My guess is I have naught to fear from sheep, Presbyterians named Graham, or film directors who resemble hobbits.

              On the other hand, the South Island's near the edge of two continental plates, and there's a supervolcano on the North Island under Lake Taupo.

              Compared to hanging around Bush's America, though, being squashed and then fried doesn't sound all that bad.

              -- Life is tough: Three out of three die. Now shut up and deal. ~Ring Lardner Jr.

              by Eleftheria on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:32:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  How about being bored? (none)
                My friends there seem to always want out...I'm not sure I could live there unless I really couldn't live elsewhere.

                I am an American. Sorry. But it's true.

                The dark at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming age.

                by peeder on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:35:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  My idea of a hot time... (4.00)
                  ...is sitting on my front porch with my cat in my lap reading a good book, or watching my shubunkin swim around his bowl while I listen to Gershwin.

                  I was born in the Truman Administration and I've had an exciting life. I'd give being bored two big thumbs up. Especially compared to the excitement of being carted off to a Rex-84 FEMA camp for refusing to have an RFID chip embedded in my hand.

                  -- Life is tough: Three out of three die. Now shut up and deal. ~Ring Lardner Jr.

                  by Eleftheria on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:55:20 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  New Zealand (none)
                    I've been to NZ three times and considered emigrating in 1985. They don't want Americans unless you have a highly-desirable skill, such as brain surgery, or plan to start a business that will employ many people. And they don't want you if you're over 55, which rules me out, also born during HST's presidency.

                    Only if you were raised on TV and bright lights in the big city would you be bored in NZ, with a short attention span, and blindness to nature.

                    Observation: My first two trips there were in 1984/85. No litter, no slums. No chamber maids; Kiwis clean up after themselves, leaving accomodations spotless for the next guest. (At campgrounds, anyway, where I stayed in cabins for $6/night, which was worth it so I didn't have to wait for the dew to dry off my tent.)

                    Third trip in 1993: The TV industry, formerly consisting of two government channels, had by now been 'privatized', offering such American gems as 'Cops'. This trip I saw litter blowing in the streets, homeless people, the remains of a grease fire on a stove in the 'cookhouse' at a campground, more crime reports in the newspapers, blatant racism towards immigrants from Oceania. This is what happens when we export our 'American way of life'.

                    oil=lebensraum

              •  as an NZ/US dual (none)
                There's plenty wrong with NZ.  It used to have the best medical care (1st open heart surgery performed there, etc.), the best education system...and then they decided they were too socialist.  Or rather, the US et al. decided they were too socialist. Now, people struggle everywhere...the wry joke is that it's the first first world country to become a third world one.

                That said, it's as magnificent as any place in the world.  And being Jewish, the "I am an American, I'm staying put!" may not be an option for me.

          •  1663 And All That (4.00)
            They weren't the only branch of my family who had to flee--there were also Huguenots fleeing Catholic persecution,

                 Some of my ancestors also got away to New Amsterdam to escape the tender mercies of Louis "I Am the State" Quatorze.  The first thing they did there was to get into trouble with the Dutch authorities for refusing to pay taxes to support the Dutch Reformed Church.

                 I'm not going anywhere.  
                 Here I Stand.
                 Victory Or Death.

                 Jest sayin'...

            My mind is aglow with whirling transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention.--Hedley Lamarr

            by angry blue planet on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:41:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You can run, but (none)
              the theocratic army for "Christian" freedom marches on. After invading the middle east in  the oil-for-god war, the right will need some peaceful island to pray on (prey on??). Why stop anywhere if you're delivering the world from sin.

              Some of my ancestors were the frist Quaker-Mennonites to arrive after fleeing state catholicism. Got their butts jailed for refusing to sign the first Patriot Act -- the oath in support of the Continental Army.

              I'm with you, blue. Here I stand. Victory or death.

            •  Another Huguenot descendent (none)
              Our first American was a Huguenot as well. I have to stay here because literally no one else wants me; we don't have a lot of money, and while we have good skills (tech workers both of us) I have a heart condition. (Ironically for a while I thought my heart condition may have to force me to emigrate if the neocons get their dream of no more employer-provided health coverage--then I found out how screwed I really am.) I'm stuck here. So I fight.

              The New Homemaker: Family values belong to EVERYONE

              by LynnS on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:52:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  On the "Pro-Israel" stance... (4.00)
          From an old blog post of mine here.
          A lot of "conservatives" or whatever the fuck they're calling themselves these days take a "pro-Israel" stance. They say, in response to criticism such as mine, that they're VERY pro-Israel and the mere suggestion that they might harbor some ugly anti-semitic sentiment (their own words and actions to the contrary be damned, isn't that right Miss Ann "There is a constitutional right to hate" Coulter?) provokes an extreme and emotionally violent reaction from them along the lines above.

          "Pro-Israel"

          Notice how this isn't "pro-Jewish" or anything like that. In fact, the only reasonable thing this position could be taken to encompass is that these people are supportive of Israel's continued existence as a nation.

          But of course, many of these people are also rabid fundamentalist crocks. And according to their so-called literal interpretations of Revalations the end of the world won't come until two conditions are met:

          One is that Israel must be a nation.

          This is where much of their "pro-Israel" stance comes from. Makes you feel all warm and cuddly inside, don't it?

          The second is that there can't be any Jews left alive. They all have to have converted to Christianity.

          That's the part that people don't see from the "pro-Israel" slogan.

          Now i'm sure that these same people who object to my intimations they might not have the noblest of desires for the Jewish people in their hearts would... well, object to this characterization.

          Funny thing about that, though.

          You can't tell the crazies (who say they're "pro-Jewish" and silently tack on "and also all Jews have to be dead or converted before THE LORD will come down from Heaven and make with the ending of all life on earth, a day whose arrival I pray for constantly.") from the ones who are just supportive of the continuance of Israel as a state for other, less totally fucking insane, reasons.

          Nonetheless, both types use the same phrase to explain their position: "I support Israel".

          So i have a message out there to all those who "support Israel" but who don't support using Israel as a pawn in some sort of cynical global politico-religious chess game to stand up and be counted. Until then i don't really give a God damn whether you're offended or not. The crazies are counting on your silence in order to hijack your (relatively sane) position and try to make their own palatable while simultaneously obscuring their true objectives by regularly omitting half their position. They are furthermore counting on your (perhaps well-meaning) offense at being considered a part of an "extremist" group in order to maintain plausible deniability while still dreaming for a world in which Judaism has been utterly wiped off the face of the earth.

          The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

          by Shapeshifter on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:21:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Of course the righties are pro-Israel ... (none)
            ... provided the Jewish people stay there and don't change their current, pretty-much-right-wing government.

            "I intend to live forever. So far, so good." Steven Wright

            by gsbadj on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:09:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, but: (none)
              I think there's a substantial difference between being a "friend of Israel" because their political views agree with yours and being a "friend of Israel" bceause it fits with "Your Script Of The End Times, The Book Of Revelations".

              Of course, i've actually seen a bit of a shift since i wrote that. Rather than the Jews, the secret hatred of the Rapture Ready crowd seems to be more aimed at the Muslims these days. My theory is that they're interfering with the "Script" and that's what's raising the ire of the Revelations-worshippers, which means (of course) it'll only be a matter of time before they remember the Jews...

              The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

              by Shapeshifter on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:46:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Code phrase for Jews (4.00)
          "Secular humanist".  For years that has been the cover for blatant anti-semitism among the theocrats.

          They love Israel only because Christ is going to return there. The Battle of Armageddon has to be waged there in order for this prophecy to occur--so bring it on, say they.

           The wingnuts who invent interpretations of the often symbolic language of the Bible believe that upon Christ's return, 40,000 Jews will convert to Christianity, accepting him as Messiah.  The rest of the Jews will be destroyed by the loving Christian God who presumably made them.  So the Christians only love conversos.  The rest can go to hell.

          From their point of view there could be nothing ethically questionable about Tom DeLay, who spouts Crhistian phrases.  But he may have been tainted by his association with Abramoff.

          Thanks for this, Bob.

      •  blowback (4.00)
        My wife (also Jewish) and I have been watching this for years (in Palestine) thinking "if it's OK to do this to the Palestinians what will the argument be when the tables are turned here in the US?".

        We'll soon find out, because we are all Palestinians now . . .

        •  Well, the Palestinans were part of the problem (none)
          After all, millions of Jews were forbidden to leave Nazi-occupied Europe in order to placate the Palestinians.

          The British torpedoed a ship full of Jewish refugees in order to placate the Palestinians, y'know.

          I've got a very famous picture of the Palestinian Mufti of Jeruselem hugging Adolph Hiter.

          •  Arabs had that much influence?! (none)
            "Millions of Jews were forbidden to leave Nazi-occupied Europe" for a much simpler reason: Anglo-American anti-semitism. Just because Palestinians didn't want them in Palestine was no reason to bar them from the UK and the U.S. Plus, how many Jews actually wanted to move to Palestine?

            It's obscene and hypocritical to try to pass off any blame for the Holocaust on Arabs. Look instead to our own "hero" Lindberg, IBM and even the Bush family if you want to attack people for "hugging" Hitler.  

      •  Interesting thoughts... (3.85)
        we'll just need your name, address, jumpsuit size and the best time to capture reach you between the hours of 8 am - and 2008.

        The great thing about fascism is ...um...

        You know, it's not as bad as you say because...er...

        Don't worry, things will improve when...uh...

        I got a new kitty.

        No, I said "Wrecked Him"...

        by PBJ Diddy on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:27:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I read the diary too (none)
        Where did it mention Joe Leiberman?
        •  Yeah that bothered me too (none)
          I agree with the diary.  But I do not agree with Bob Johnson's follow-up comment in which he tries to portray Joe Lieberman as a Jewish Uncle Tom.  For such a thoughtful diary, way to over simplify in the follow-up.
      •  Understand the "heartland" (none)
        I never realized that there weren't a lot of Jews anywhere but on the coasts, having grown up in an area where Jews accounted for a healthy minority - say 15%.  Then we moved into the so-called "heartland."  We lived in Iowa for 5 years, and Texas for 7 years before that.  Jews are considered entirely mysterious: exotic at best, threatening at worst.  Iowans have little exposure to secular or reform/conservative Jews; they've only ever heard of Lubavitchers and other Orthodox jews who are indeed mysterious and out of the mainstream.  

        To me, this is a huge problem, because Jews as a whole are still, in the minds of even mainstream Christians, weird and "not like the rest of us."  It makes it easier to make the leap from tolerance to blame.

        •  Having lived in Iowa and New York (none)
          I'm not sure I agree. I grew up in Iowa and always had Jewish friends. They were a little exotic, but that was only a plus in a state jam-packed with cornfed Northern European Protestants. (I'm Irish-Catholic, and we were also seen as a little exotic.) Mostly, however, Jews were simply off our radar. In contrast, I'm constantly shocked at how much outright anti-Semitism I see or hear even here in my very Jewish Manhattan neighborhood. And talk about antagonism to Lubavitchers and Chasidim!

          For what it's worth, my mom, who still lives in Iowa, just called me to get my (Jewish) lover's address so she can send him a Pesach card. Don't confuse lack of familiarity with contempt.    

      •  "Ruthless pursuit of power" (none)

        Frank Rich, in today's NYT column, "Get DeLay to the Church on Time", goes after santimonious weasels of all creeds, saying that power trumps religion every time.

        The values alleged so far in this scandal - greed, hypocrisy, favor-selling, dissembling - belong to no creed except the ruthless pursuit of power. They are not exclusive to either political party. But the religious trappings add a note that distinguishes these Beltway creeps from those who have come before: a supreme righteousness that often spirals into anger and fire-and-brimstone zealotry that can do far more damage to America than ill-begotten golf junkets.

        http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/opinion/17rich.html?hp=&pagewanted=print&position=

        If the economy continues tanking, expect "cosmopolites" (another old code word for Jew)to be the focus of rage and blame.  That worked well in Germany in the 1920s-40s.  I suppose the Turks, formerly known as guest-workers, are the new Jews among the anti-semites there now.  White trash has got to feel better than somebody.  And ruthless pursuit of power does not work unless you have a scapegoat.

      •  i'm sorry, but i dont buy it (3.33)
        i feel like you use somewhat specious reasoning here. Why does attacking the liberal media or hollywood mean only attacking jews? Sure, there are plenty of jews involved in both, but if I attacked Dunkin' Donuts in the DC area for being liberal, would that supposed to mean I was attacking pakistanis and was this close to "nazi-style fascism"?

        Look, I'm as petrified by whats going on in America right now as you I'm sure. But I feel like there isn't a connection here. Jews tend to be liberals. So what? I'm a hell of a lot more concerned about the GOP's war on all of our principles than I am about anti-Semitism, which I just don't see here.

        Pull the tube out. And don't stop pulling until you pull the troops out. -Get Your War ON

        by jkennerl on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:44:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  explanation (none)
          The right is framing their debates as an US vs THEM dichotomy -- and they are (subconsciously, or not so subconsciously) modelling their debate as a religious disagreement, drawing upon the rhetoric of Christian superiority.  In the process, a lot gets lumped together: Hollywood, liberalism, intellectualism, media.  In Europe and throughout American history, these were all synonmymous with Jews (and gays -- in fact, Jews were consitently portrayed as effeminate in order to emphasize that Jews couldn't be normal masculine Americans.)  Just as McCarthyism was easy for anti-Semites to latch onto (and were able to avoid being called anti-Semites due to Roy Cohn's fervent passion for McCarthyism), so too is this current debate all too easily drawing upon groups that have been traditional code words for Jews.  Jews are dangerous to the right because they (generally) look like white folks but vote left.  In a country that defines difference by physicality, Jews are problematic because they defy racial difference and so it's harder for the right to classify difference without sounding too, well, academic.  And, for religious zealots, it is IMPERATIVE that Jews are on the wrong side of the equation.  Jews are the ones who can stop this country from becoming a Christian one if Jews appear as one of "us."  

          The right earns support when it is able to craft a "we're normal Americans" mentality and "they are not."  But there's a backlash when they are blatantly bigoted.  So, hence you have the right going after Hollywood and academia.  The result is the same: Jews become one of "Them" rather than "Americans."

          Again, I don't think that the right is consciously going after the Jews, but it's an end result as they put Jews on the "Them" side of the equation.  They need to turn Jews into outsiders all the while making it seem like they would be accepted as insiders.  (Anti-Semitism on the left does the reverse -- they want Jews to appear as insiders so that they can point to the Jews as being in league with the right -- hence how "neocon" has become the code for "Jew".)

          •  wow (none)
            I don't understand what you're saying, but then again, I'm just a white guy of WASPy ethnicity, and I guess I'm just concerned that saying that nazistic fascism is right around the corner. No doubt that something is changing here in America, but I still think this explanation leaves me wanting.

            Pull the tube out. And don't stop pulling until you pull the troops out. -Get Your War ON

            by jkennerl on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:39:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Scary ain't it? (none)
      Which makes it all the more powerful.

      Tom DeLay is so corrupt...<HOW CORRUPT IS HE?>...He's so corrupt that when he takes the Oath of Office, he holds his hand OUT instead of UP!

      by mlkisler on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:55:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the good news (4.00)
    is that Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here" has been reissued, after a long publication drought.

    "....a relative newbie (user ID in the 18,000 range).. "

    by Miss Devore on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:12:37 PM PDT

    •  I have an original copy of the book (none)
      published in the 20s (I believe). I became fascinated while writing a research paper for theatre history. I turned in a different paper but still loved the book (and play)
    •  How About Jack London? (4.00)
      ...who wrote IMHO a far more prophetic novel about a future American dictatorship called The Iron Heel.  He wrote it in 1907 but somehow it seems less dated and more prescient than Lewis'ICHH.  

      Also, there's If This Goes On by Robert A. Heinlein.  RAH isn't exactly a favorite among liberales, partly because he wrote swashbuckling "hard" SF, partly because he became such a hero to Righties due to his increasingly doctrinaire conservatism in later years.  But RAH wrote ITGO in 1939 before he moved firmly Rightwards--just a few years earlier he had worked for Upton Sinclair's EPIC campaign in California.  And it's one of the best descriptions of a future religious dictatorship in the US ever done (though Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale edges it out).

      My mind is aglow with whirling transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention.--Hedley Lamarr

      by angry blue planet on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:59:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  looks very interesting (none)
        I will have to check it out. Jack London's book are always good read, and this sounds rather prescient. Two sections that caught my eye from this online review:

        (formatting edited for better presentation)

        In the Foreword of the 1980 edition, Rutgers professor H. Bruce Franklin, itemizes some of London's specific descriptions of the world that was to come.

        Franklin: London foresees:

        • the creation of attractive suburbs for the relatively privileged strata of the working class while the central cities are turned into what he calls "ghettoes" for the masses of unemployed and menial laborers, shoved into the darkest depths of human misery;
        • the deliberate economic subversion of public education in order to spread illiteracy and ignorance;
        • adequate food, health care, and housing priced above the reach of more and more people;
        • the ubiquitous secret police infiltrating all organizations opposing the government;
        • the establishment of a permanent mercenary army;
        • the government conspiring:
          • in real and phony bomb plots,
          • in the suppression of books and the destruction of printing presses,
          • in witch hunts aimed at dissident labor leaders, professors, and authors,
          • in destroying the reputations of some of its opponents, imprisoning many others and murdering the few it finds too formidable;
        • spontaneous mass rebellions of the downtrodden people of the central cities;
        • urban guerrillas battling the government's army of mercenaries and police in the canyons of the cities.

        Not all of this is true to the somewhat extreme degree described here. And yet... can't you recognize a rather shocking amount of today's United States in that list?

        Then there's this bit about the origin of the name:

        Only a couple days ago did I discover the possible origins for the title of London's book. I got this quote from Grover Cleveland, from an article by Thom Hartmann:

        On December 3, 1888, President Grover Cleveland delivered his annual address to Congress. Apparently Cleveland had taken notice of the Santa Clara County Supreme Court headnote, its politics, and its consequences, for he said in his speech to the nation, delivered before a joint session of Congress: "As we view the achievements of aggregated capital, we discover the existence of trusts, combinations, and monopolies, while the citizen is struggling far in the rear or is trampled to death beneath an iron heel. Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people's masters."

        The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives. - Sir Winston Churchill

        by drewthaler on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:14:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hmmm! (none)
               Interesting that the phrase "iron heel" might have originated with Grover Cleveland, who wasn't exactly your basic knee-jerk radical.
               London's future dictatorship certainly holds up better than Sinclair Lewis' It Can't Happen Here.  London's ruling Oligarchy has mercenaries to do the dirty work.  And I suspect that the death squads, etc., of a future dictatorship probably would be "contract employees"--mercs--operating completely outside the law. After all, employers were already using Pinkertons and hired muscle such as the goons in Henry Ford's "Service Department" to keep labor in line.  So it wasn't such a big leap for London to imagine an entire police force consisting of Rent-A-Thugs.  By comparison, Lewis' "Minute Men" are simply a thinly-disguised knockoff of 1930s-vintage European Fascist outfits like the squadristi or the brownshirts.  Not too convincing, and not very American. As Huey Long(!) once observed, if a dictatorship ever does happen here it's going to be 100% American.  

          My mind is aglow with whirling transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention.--Hedley Lamarr

          by angry blue planet on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:15:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  It can't happen Here (none)
      That was the one where the perverted homosexuals took over the country as I recall ?

      All hail Sinclair Lewis

  •  I'm Jewish (4.00)
    and I AM scared.  My wife and I were talking tonight, wondering what kind of country our kids were going to grow up in, and whether they could be equal members of society.

    I don't think we'll see Nazi genocide, but I do fear we will see second class citizenship, followed by a mass exodus.  I hope it doesn't happen, but if it does I will be one of the people leaving.

    Never again.

    Follow the money. It leads to the truth.

    by dhonig on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:13:15 PM PDT

    •  leaving to go where? (none)
      The Christian Zionists claim dominion over the whole world . . . (but you're welcome to stay if you convert . . .).  

      They particularly crave the Holy Land . . . (god gave it to them, through Christ, you know . . .).  The First Crusade will be missionaries . . . if they are "rejected" the Second Crusade will come armed.  They'll have all those bases in Iraq, remember . . .

      •  I'm thinking Canada or Australia (none)
        only because I'm lousy with languages.

        England is also a possibility.

        Follow the money. It leads to the truth.

        by dhonig on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:39:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is MY country, (4.00)
          and I am not leaving. And I won't allow these cretins to run my life either. When the going gets rough, the tough get going, so let's all be tough and run these Jesus freaks out of power. We have the votes, let's use them. We have the ideas, let's spread them. We have the laws, let's use them. There are laws in place to deal with these people. For instance, making terroristic threats is illegal, so let's get Tom DeLay charged with making terroristic threats against judges. Even if it doesn't stick, the publicity will make the point to people that this sort of behavior is illegal, not to mention un-American. I live in FL and I can assure you that the majority of my Christian neighbors are appalled at what is being done and said "in their name". They don't want to live in a theocracy any more than we do. And they will say so at the polls, I am sure. All the people who scream about the Ten Commandments not being in a courthouse, and threaten the people who took them out, forget that the Ten Commandments say, among other things, THOU SHALT NOT KILL. Funny how they forget that when they get revved up for war. They also say, LOVE THY NEIGHBOR..no mention of loving thy neighbor only if he goes to the same church you do. They seem to forget that too. We need to remind them that they are breaking the laws they purport to hold most sacred. We need to take our country back, not leave her because a bunch of nuts are making a lot of noise.

          What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

          by Demfem on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:21:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And Austria was (4.00)
            my father in law's country.  Do you want the list of camps he was in before the Russians liberated him?

            I'm not being sarcastic.  I'm here for the good fight.  But if and when the fight is futile, and we've lost, I'm taking my family and leaving.  I will not allow my children to suffer the same fate, to choose which children lives because I can't carry them all, and which one gets shot in front of me. And no, that's not apocryphal, it's a real, personal, family tragedy.

            Follow the money. It leads to the truth.

            by dhonig on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:30:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't blame you, (none)
              but I don't have any children, just a husband, horses and dogs. Horses will come in handy for the guerrilla fight, if it comes to that. But I will go down fighting, since I am the only one at risk. And for the record, I also lost relatives in the Holocaust, cousins. My great grandfather was a rabbi, and all his brothers' children and grandchildren in Europe were lost, except for some cousins in France. They, surprisingly, popped up at a family reunion that celebrated my great-uncle(the one brother that followed Great-grandfather to the US) finally getting credit for his Medal of Honor, won during the Indian Wars. He had enlisted under another name, after being gently shoved out of the Union army during the Civil War..he had been wounded several times and the war was winding down. He was the first Jew to win the Medal of Honor. We are all very proud of him. It was great to meet the French side of the family, and one of my sharpest memories is seeing the camp tattoo on my cousin Henri's arm. He was lucky, didn't get caught until near the end of the war, and consequently survived it.

              What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

              by Demfem on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:13:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wow! (none)
                For action during the Civil War, or the Indian Wars?

                If it was the Indian Wars, was he Simon Suhler or George Geiger?

                There were six recipients before that, in the Civl War, starting with Benjamin Levy.

                Photos and citations here Jewish Medal of Honor Recipients.

                There is no question the Army remained anti-semitic for many years.  My step-father's six pointed star probably cost him a five-pointed one.

                Follow the money. It leads to the truth.

                by dhonig on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:46:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  He was (none)
                  Simon Suhler..too cool that you know about him. My mother wondered why Great-grandfather hadn't told everyone about him, he was Dad's great uncle, and I pointed out that maybe a rabbi wouldn't want to hold up as an example to his children someone whose best skill seemed to be killing people. Simon ended his days as postmaster of Waco. The whole family came to Austin, where he was buried, to see the new headstone, with the Medal of Honor insignia, put up.  It was a very interesting experience.

                  What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

                  by Demfem on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:54:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, but can they ever really convert? (none)
        Oh hell, let's just kill them all just to be sure.

        Note: These are thoughts from the mind of the American Taliban, otherwise known as the American fascists, and do not represent the views of this station or of the station's management. Thank you.

    •  No Way Out (none)
      don't think we'll see Nazi genocide, but I do fear we will see second class citizenship, followed by a mass exodus.  I hope it doesn't happen, but if it does I will be one of the people leaving.

      Never again.

          As someone who's only part-Jewish I see your point. But getting out is no solution either.          
           Can you imagine what a threat the US would be to the rest of the world if the Wingnuts took over completely and set up a downright dictatorship?  There would no safe place to go.  Canada?  These cocksuckers would probably invade and annex Canada first thing. Europe? The New Order would pick a fight with Europe.  Think of all the Jews who fled Germany in the 30s to places like Holland and France, thinking that they would be safe in those countries.  Along comes 1940 and BINGO, they're caught.
           Nope. There's really only one practical thing to do, and that's to stay here and fight it out.  

      My mind is aglow with whirling transient nodes of thought careening through a cosmic vapor of invention.--Hedley Lamarr

      by angry blue planet on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:29:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't forget New York City... they love (4.00)
    ...to bash NYC

    ...don't forget how O'Lielly, Foxx and others revived Henry Ford's crap about the Jews' "War on Christmas."

    If you see McLaughlin Group this weekend, Pat just loathes Mort Zuckerman....the contempt when Mort was talking about Israel was just dripping off his face.

    Don't forget Frank Rich's column last week, as he talks abou "The Left Behind" books and how they drip with "all non-christians" will be damned.

    And that old time crap about the "eastern elite" and the new crap about "educated coasts"..... I don't have to by cryptographer... to smell the garbage.

    •  And George Soros (4.00)
      whose willingness to fund anti-Bush political activities has made him the modern-day equivalent of those evil Jews behind the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. (I know it's a Czarist psy-op forgery, but it's still holy writ for some, and very available on the Internets.)

      As Moonie screed-writer and former Gingrich flack Tony Blankley put it, on Hannity & Colmes, of course:

      Look, if he wasn't a multi-billionaire, he'd just be another ignored left-wing crank, but we all tend to pay more attention to people who have several billion dollars.

      snip

      This is a man who has blamed the Jews for anti-Semitism. ... This is a man who, when he was plundering the world's currencies, in England in '92, he caused the Southeast Asian financial crisis in '97.

      snip

      He said that he has no moral responsibility for the consequences of his financial actions. He is a self-admitted atheist, he was a Jew who figured out a way to survive the Holocaust.

      snip

      When a man is worth this kind of money, and he's spending it on trying to influence the American public in an election, trying to buy the election, he's not going to, we have a right to know what kind of an unscrupulous man he is.

      snip

      He's buying influence all over the world. He's a robber baron, he's a pirate capitalist, and he's a reckless man.

      snip

      He supported abortion in Eastern Europe, in a country that's losing population, he's a self-admitted atheist, I think he's a very bad influence in the world. He's entitled to spend his money, and the public is entitled to know what kind of a man he is.

      To which Stupid Sean said, "Tony, I think you're right."

       

      The Republicans want to cut YOUR Social Security benefits.

      by devtob on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:41:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Which makes (none)
      9/11 hagiography all the more puzzling to me.  I would have thought that consevatives would be happy that that modern day Gomorrah got what it deserved.  That immigrant filled, largest Jewish city, crime ridden, homo-capital has been the target of Right WIng rage for some time now.  For them to use 9/11 as a rallying point seems hypocritical.  Of course, some like Falwell and Robertson actually did come out and have the courage of their convictions by actually saying that NYC had it coming, but they are the exception.  Too bad Mohammad Atta didnt fly that plane into the top ten floors of the UN building, huh John Bolton?

      But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg.

      by calipygian on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:44:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  maybe this is why the almighty dubya sat and read (none)
        the goat bood and did the photo ops for as long as he did.  he know it was NYC and he wanted more ppl to die and thought of the very thing you said.

        He is as much to blame for thsi holocost as the next man.

        I am so tired of this time in our history!  I am so scared that my knees are weaked on any given day.  Why do you think that no one has retired from the supreme court yet?  shy do youthink they just might be saying to us they are sorry they did what they did and have to hold on to the power they were to give away to dubya.

        I wonder constantly on things such as this.

        This administration has not one ounce of common sense in their little brains!

        What has got to happen before the world and America awakens to the fact that this group has to be the devil and woking 24/7 to make u s all prisoners of theirs.

        I have been sick since 2000 and have not had one day of comfort knowning what you all say is not the truth of the matter.

        My challange to you, each of you, is what can we do about it.

        I want definate answers and things we can do to stop this from getting worse.  

        I am not going anywhere!  Plain and simple.  This is my home and if they want me out of their way then they will ahve to kill me first.  I stand firm on that issue.

        Now what is it you want me do to.....I am ready as ever!  What is it you want me to do?

        •  First, remain calm. (none)
          The idea here is to keep your head while everybody else is losing theirs. This puts you in a position to take advantage of any opportunities that pop up.

          Second, vote. Especially in primaries, when it really counts. I hear a pathetic refrain (admittedly, mostly from non-Kossacks) about how government does nothing for them, but then they don't change the prevailing political winds by voting against them. You don't have to vote for a single party. (I am pretty consistently Democrat, but then I have my own biases.) Do it before the Right takes it away, in favor of their own version of one-party rule/ fuehrerprinzip.

          Third, find people with like ideas, or are amenable to change, and slowly and carefully expose them to your views. People dissatisfied with the status quo work best. Get them out to vote. Don't take anything short of "I was deathly ill" or "my wife was run over by a horse" as an excuse. Offer to drive them to the polls if you have to. Turn voting into a social and civic event.

          Fourth, be empathetic. Evil (as defined by the psychiatrist at Nuremburg) is the lack of empathy for the sufferings of others. Many people in this day and age lack this ability, as they are so wound up in their own problems they don't have time for others'.

          Fifth, and lastly, see and seek the truth, on the big and small pictures in your life. See that others do the same. Then speak out (even if it hurts your own side). People may not like it, but if you tell it from the perspective of empathy (see 4. above) they will appreciate your honesty. The truth today stops a thousand lies later.

          You do not need a lot of money to do these things, but depending on your resources and time, you can make a movement happen.

          •  Thank you so very much! (none)
            I really mean that.  I have been asking myself those questions and trying my very best to do that which you have mentioned here.

            I am wrking on a daily basis to do that change you have mentioned and I do see the questions in others minds and eyes as I do this.  You are right, you know.

            I just do not see the results as in elections that I would like to see.  I am afterall, American.  I want to see the change for the betterment of all, not just a few select.

            I am just as guilty as blaming others as the next person, but I awoke in 2000 to see that precious freedom of choise taken away from me in my voting process.

            When I see things happen like that again happen in 2004, I get very discouraged.  I am weary and tired, but I still keep pushing onward and forward.  I just do not see any results occuring.

            I suppose I am too analytic for my own good.  I try to see the why in thing and see if it is the reason for things.  :o(

            I do not hate any one race, creed or color.  I do want justice for all. I want harmoney and peace.  I do realize I still have to face the fact that I may have to lay my life once again onthe line for this freedom and for others as well.  As a veteran and a mother and an American, I will forever hold that to be my purpose in life.

            I will not take any crap from anyone on either side of this fence.  I would like to think I am a fair person and would listen to both sides before judging anything.  I feel I am at the anger point of boiling to not hesitate to get angry at others who do not see the truth if it was in front of their noses.  This is what I have to learn to control.  It is nto easy when one is scared and I am scare, even tho I am not Jewish.  They will come for me too, you see.

            Where has my America gone?  Where was I when it disapeared off the face of the earth.  Why was I sleeping before this came about.  My anger first of all comes to me the sleeping one.  

            Am I too late to find I belong to the real side of things?  I hope I do not sound so mentally ill that I can not judge what is going in in from of me.  I am only one person and I have fought thsi battle of unequal justice since the year of 1999 when bush was once again mentioned as a canidate.  

            Their whole family is more than dysfunctional, they are a bunch of criminals and they love only their kind to function in society.  Which means all that suround them are criminals.  I see our finincial furute going down the tubes like a snow ballin hell.  I see freedom dissapearing in the middle of  Friday afternoon delights.  
            Thanks for your comment.  I will try hard to remain calm.....screaming from the top of my voice!  I want to say, even tho I know it is wrong of me to say it......Clam, hell, that is what got me here in the first damn place.  I should have been unclam a long time ago.  

            But thanks anyhow....bs...I will try.....harder.....more often....more civilized like......Thanks...

        •  I slightly disagree (none)
          on the reason Bush sat and read a book when the WTC was destroyed. I think it's because he knew he had been warned, and hadn't passed on the warning or beefed up airport security. Also, that he is a coward to the core and was trying to figure out how HE wouldn't get hurt. Then he flew off to Nebraska until the smoke drifted away on the wind, and he was told he was safe..then he went to NY and did a photo op. But I agree with the rest of your premise.

          What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

          by Demfem on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:19:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The fact that they loathe it (4.00)
        was never going to keep them from exploiting it.

        And here's how they've turned it around:

        Witness the backlash against victims' families (greedy bastards--it was always about the money, as if victims' families planned 9/11 themselves for PROFIT). Witness the months, nay, YEARS it took for promised federal aid to be delivered, and the accompanying complete lack of outrage (and further victim-bashing) on the part of the rest of the nation. Witness the despicable co-opting of New York's and DC's tragedy for monetary gain in red states. Witness the rest of the country's utter disregard for the opinion of NY and DC when it came to deciding that Shrubya was anything resembling a "hero" on 9/11.

        This is the hypocrisy and outrage that drove me--peaceably--to the streets during the RNC. And for my trouble, the GOP, not wanting to be inconvenienced by the feelings of those of us who had BEEN THERE, held me in a condemned bus terminal for 24 hours and in a NYC jail for another 24 in the city where I abided by the law and paid my taxes.

        If I had my druthers, those using 9/11 for partisan gain would (a) knock it the hell off (b) rescind all such gains IMMEDIATELY.

  •  Thomas Frank on this parallel (4.00)
    From What's the Matter with Kansas p. 191:
    In the cosmology of bigotry Jews are not just another despised minority. The stereotype with which they are always smeared is a very particular one: they are held to be affluent, alien, cosmopolitan, liberal, and above all, intellectual.

    Anti-intellectualism is one of the grand unifying themes of the backlash, the mutant strain of class war that underpins so many of Kansas's otherwise random-seeming grievances. Contemporary conservatism holds as a key article of faither that it is fruitless to scrutinize the business pages for clues about the way the world works. We do not labor under the yoke of some abstraction like market forces, or even flesh-and-blood figures like executives or owners. No, it is intellectuals who call the shots, people with graduate degrees and careers in government, acadamia, law, and the professions.

    . . . solutions emerge from [our] judicious study of discernible reality.

    by realitybased on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:15:06 PM PDT

    •  What's the Matter... (4.00)
      This past week and have read five, going on six, books.  What's the Matter with Kansas was one of them.  (I don't usually have this much time to read but my husband came back from a conference in Reno from which he caught some sort of bug that he quickly passed on to me.  I've been in bed most of the week.)  I found Frank's book to be enlightening and thoroughly depressing.  When I read the last word and closed the cover I said to myself, "Americans are dumb as dirt."  Ignorance is frightening because it can be so easily manipulated by malevolent forces.  We are indeed in dark times.
      •  And ignorance is self-defeating (4.00)
        For those that want to lessen education, to teach "Intelligent Design", etc., who wish to control through fear resulting from ignorance are the same ones who will bring the US down in relation to the rest of the world. While we learn ID, they are educating billions of scientists, mathematicians and more in India and China.

        Just wait 20 years, things will be very different if we keep heading down this road.

        "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

        by bewert on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:15:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Liberal elitists = jewish elitists (4.00)
    Hollywood elites = Jewish elites

    Yep...you're completely right I think. The code words are obvious to anyone who knows the history of the Third Reich.

    "God created men. Samuel Colt made them equal."--Colt Firearms Motto.

    by Manix on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:17:40 PM PDT

    •  Don't forget ... (none)
      "northeasterners" or "New Englanders" as code words

      "I intend to live forever. So far, so good." Steven Wright

      by gsbadj on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:12:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Huh (none)
        I never thought of "New Englanders" as code for Jewish. I picture an old Yankee saying "ah'yup" myself.

        "What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out, which is the exact opposite." - Bertrand Russell

        by Mad Dog Rackham on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 09:22:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Same thing to them... (none)
          Yankee-style "common ground" fellow-feeling is as alien to right-wing people in Kansas or Alabama as any Jewish rabbi's expounding of moral thought. An Irish Catholic is likely to be regarded as a "Harvard-educated intellectual" even though he or she went to Boston College. Or even haven't read a book in years.

          Ya gotta remember, they don't get out much...

          •  hmmmm, (none)
            I live in a semi-rural area of Minnesota and Irish Catholics in this area are, well....farmers.

            "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program." - G.W. Bush; 11/2/00

            by pilotweed on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:10:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Turn Your Fear... (4.00)
    into anger.

    They have pushed too far. Don't take it. Fight.

    •  We generally don't fight in this tribe (none)
      unless it's the homeland.

      The dark at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming age.

      by peeder on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:28:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Or In the Words... (none)
      of the great Bob Marley -

      "We sick an' tired of-a your ism-skism game -
       Dyin' 'n' goin' to heaven in-a Jesus' name, Lord.
       We know when we understand:
       Almighty God is a living man.
       You can fool some people sometimes,
       But you can't fool all the people all the time.
       So now we see the light (What you gonna do?),
       We gonna stand up for our rights!  (Yeah, yeah, yeah!)"
      - Get Up - Stand Up

      •  Or in the Words... (none)
        of the great Joe Strummer (Clash):

        "What are we gonna do now?
        Taking off his turban, they said, is this man a Jew?
        'Cause they're working for the clampdown
        They put up a poster saying we earn more than you!
        When we're working for the clampdown
        We will teach our twisted speech
        To the young believers
        We will train our blue-eyed men
        To be young believers

        The judge said five to ten-but I say double that again
        I'm not working for the clampdown
        No man born with a living soul
        Can be working for the clampdown
        Kick over the wall 'cause government's to fall
        How can you refuse it?
        Let fury have the hour, anger can be power
        D'you know that you can use it?"
        - Clampdown

  •  as much as i think you nailed the etymology (4.00)
    i think they really hate the liberal coalition as a whole with the same vehemence that their grandfathers once hated jews. gays, liberals, atheists, environmentalists, arabs, neegroes, feminists, potsmokers, academics, activist judges, hollywood, mexicans, illegal immigrants, etc. etc. are all equally in their sights, and we should all be aware of it, and take it seriously. i can feel it in my bones, a hard rain is gonna fall, bob, but i really think they don't even distinguish between the various segments of the left anymore.

    we are all canaries in the mine.

    •  Yup, we're "Them" (4.00)
      I agree, I think we'll all be lumped together as "Them", and we'll all be attached to the boogeyman of the week.  

      When illegal immigrants are herded by vigilante groups, anyone rasing a question about it will be "a Liberal who supports illegal immigrants".

      When pornographers held indefinitely by the Dept. of Justice as "terrorists", anyone raising a question about habeus corpus or speedy justice will be "a Liberal who supports pornographers".

      We'll all be "Them" - and you used to think you were an American!

      "We cannot let terriers and rogue nations hold this nation hostile. - W, 09/09/00

      by Bob Love on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:51:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm not so sure (4.00)
      The Jew as evil "other" has a life beyond the far right and the christofascists.  Some (likely most)  of us that do organizing have experienced this even in doing what should be, what is otherwise, progressive activism. You hear it from people that should know better, and in fact have their own careful code language that reveals that they know better, realize that they should be ashamed, but nonetheless continue the canards.  You can't be in a fight with banks, or landlords, for instance, without some of your supporters muttering about "the Jews".  Identity politics of all types share the Jew as evil "other", there's not much David Duke and Louis Farrakhan agree on, but Jews, yes, I think they find common ground.  And let's not even bring up what happens when you try to start parsing out "anti-Zionism".  Well-intended criticism of Israeli excesses is easily and regularly hijacked by those with a more malicious agenda, and that is equally prevalent on the left and among "liberals" as from the right.  
      •  Yep. (none)
        I won't rehash my old arguments - if you care about what I've said about Israel, you can find it with a total of three clicks.

        A world where the everyday is inspirational, and the inspirational is everyday.

        by mkrell on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:22:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe, but (4.00)
      the point is not that Jews are a particular object of hatred, but that Jews are an EASY target for demonization- all the canards about the media and money fit right into the bad guys rap about how the people in power are the victims.

      THAT is where institutional anti-semitism is used.  Not as a product of hate, but as a product of propaganda.

      That said, I think that this time we are second in line behind the gays.  If I were gay in America today, particularly with a family of my own, I would already have moved to a blue blue state, and would be contemplating emigration.  I really do anticipate that it will be illegal to be gay in the near future.

      Follow the money. It leads to the truth.

      by dhonig on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:08:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Easy target and institutionalized targets (none)
        include anyone black or brown. And they don't even bother to have a rathonale about that.

        Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain

        by Rolfyboy6 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:40:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree. (4.00)
        This is why it troubles me to hear Democrats and liberals discuss conceding on gay rights. We have got to stand up and fight these bastards on this. Otherwise it will be...

        First they came for the gays...

      •  Truly.... (none)
        At least they couch their comments about Jews when they speak.  No such thing with gays.  Abominations, perverts, mentally defective are all labels the fundies use with glee when speaking of gays.  They wouldn't dare come out and say they wouldn't want a jew to teach in a public school.  

        So yes, be afraid.

    •  Trial Lawyers. (4.00)
      By all means, DO NOT omit us. Especially given that the entire judiciary and indeed the very concept of justice is under attack.

      When ordinary citizens can not obtain representation and have no access to the courts for redress of grievances, we will be there.

      •  Trial lawyers, another euphemism (none)
        I fear that "trial lawyers" is another euphemism for Jews, as in Jewish lawyers, as in shysters.

        In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

        by Paul in Berkeley on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:17:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Demonization of the Trial Bar (none)
          is actually all about Big Business wanting to destroy legal accountability for their misdeeds. The Tort "Reform" agenda, which is in fact the deprivation of all citizens of their legal rights, is judicial deregulation in the eyes of Big Business. Regulation by executive branch agencies is bad; Regulation by the courts -- that is, Justice by the People, a/k/a juries, for the People -- is worse.

          To make it happen, to convince the People that their legal rights should be minimized or eliminated, they had to create and burn down a strawman, the Trial Lawyers.

          The Republican Party, which is of course bought and paid for by Big Business, was delighted to jump on this bandwagon since the Trial Lawyers are the most liberal professionals in the country and contribute hugely, financially and otherwise, to the Democratic Party; and of course they, the Republicans, have no interest in People anyway, at least as compared to Power and Money.

          Bottom line: This is yet another Corporations v. Citizens issue.

          •  Yes and no (none)
            You are absolutely right that the demonization of the trial bar is a pro-business movement. There's a subtext to it, however, and that's anti-Semitic.  A lot of the Republicans that hear the trial lawyer attack aren't business owners, they don't have a vested stake in it one way or another.  

            In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

            by Paul in Berkeley on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:23:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  This has been bothering me since the election (none)
      When I saw an Ad on tv that reffered to "President Bush and Republicans in Congress" doing something good, and then "Senator Kerry and Liberals in Congress" doing something bad (Liberal and republican capped here because they seem like they would have been in the ad script).

      Then the debates are going on and bush keeps spouting things like  "thats what liberals do".  

      It frankly scared the crap out of me to see an entire side of the political spectrum being vilified.

      •  That may have been a legalism... (none)
        If an ad bashed John Kerry then it had to be paid for by the Bush campaign and there could be no coordination between the campaign and the Republican party.

        If an ad also bashed "Democrats in Congress" then since it had something that wasn't about the presidential election, there could be coordination and thus shared costs (one focus group instead of two, one hiring of an ad production staff instead of two).  

        Not that you're wrong - I think that liberals are being bashed just as you say, and that this legal loophole just made the bashing more convenient.

        -Fred

        Organizing my thoughts about how to win from 2005 forward - http://fredsfred.blogspot.com

        by FredFred on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:33:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  "Trial Lawyers" + ACLU = Jew (3.87)
    ...I mean really, how many voters every encounter a lawyer, and when they do, it's because they NEEEED a Lawyer....

    And how HATE radio loves to drip, non controversial, Ruth Baaadeeer Ginnnsburrrrg's name, when they "utter" it.

  •  Add this to the pot (4.00)
    "Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger's past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit."

    Ratzinger, allegedly wasn't an enthusiastic member but he does have other drawbacks when it comes to healing rifts.

    Halley's comet and a republican telling the truth share a common trait. It happens twice in a lifetime if you are lucky.

    by primate on the left on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:31:09 PM PDT

    •  Haaaaahahahahahahhahahhahah (none)
      I don't know if he's got he votes....he's 78.  Do they really want another (soon to be) infirm leader.
    •  Ratzinger has Waldheimer's DIsease (4.00)
      "I forgot I vas a Nazi!"
      •  I'm inclined to agree (4.00)
        I can't imagine seeing Jews being herded, being around slave labor and not having a deep sense of guilt and compassion for the Jewish people and all others caught in the Nazi nets, yet from what I read he doesn't seem to have either. The mention of him deserting in '44 struck me as a bit weak in terms many were deserting during that time. A man in his position, in my opinion, has had ample opportunity to make amends, yet his rhetoric at times could be paragraphs out of the old playbook. I don't know what his name means in German, but it's well stated in English.

        Halley's comet and a republican telling the truth share a common trait. It happens twice in a lifetime if you are lucky.

        by primate on the left on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:54:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (4.00)
          I can't imagine seeing Jews being herded, being around slave labor and not having a deep sense of guilt and compassion for the Jewish people and all others caught in the Nazi nets,

          I can't imagine seeing that and not questioning all authoritarian forms of power.

          "...the definition of a gaffe in Washington is somebody who tells the truth but shouldn't have." Howard Dean

          by colleen on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:42:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  from the belly (none)
        A 4 for my first belly laugh of the day!

        "We cannot let terriers and rogue nations hold this nation hostile. - W, 09/09/00

        by Bob Love on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:19:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  oops (4.00)
      Ratzinger, allegedly wasn't an enthusiastic member but he does have other drawbacks when it comes to healing rifts.

      "It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others," she said. "The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice."

      "...the definition of a gaffe in Washington is somebody who tells the truth but shouldn't have." Howard Dean

      by colleen on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:38:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  How can they hate hollywood (4.00)
              when it gave them "The Passion of THE christ" and all their favorite shoot em up/car racing movies. You know..they started coming out of the woodwork when Bush didn't slip and used the word Crusade against his war with Islam...ooops...I mean with Osama. I wish you could have read my Nov. diary entitled "Becoming Tippi Hedron"..I saw this happening just weeks after Black Tuesday, it is starting to become clearer now to few others, many still have their heads buried in the sand.

              The go along their daily lives thinking at worse..it'll only be 4 more years. We are spiraling into Hell and it is gonna be way to late before anyone (but the 50 thousand of us and a few of our favorite Senators)for anyone to do anything about it...btw/ FUCK JOE PRO-TORTURE LIEBERMAN. He is evil of the most ignorant kind. I hate to give up now, but Europe is sounding better and better with each passing Bush day.

    *We live in a Nation of LAWS* 11th Circuit

    by Chamonix on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:36:13 PM PDT

  •  Janeane (Irish/Italian), yet "Jew" (4.00)
    I saw Janeane on Maher once talk about her HATE mail, it's fill with misspelled words, and they think that Garofalo is Jewish.

    Oh, and the Fundies -- they really HATE Howard Stern and Bill Maher because of their Bush bashing and because of their anti religion positions.  While Howard is Jewish, Bill is only half Jewish and he was raised Catholic.

  •  Agreed (4.00)
    Though the gay demonization is far more overt and dangerous, at least in the short run.

    But what about the fervent pro-Israel push by the Christian right?  Yes, I know it's supposedly a prelude to the rapture, where the Jews will be destroyed if they don't accept Jesus.

    But the fundies have a very organized outreach, especially to orthodox Jews, that is not just focussed on Israel -- e.g., they contribute to Jews in places like Turkey.

    I personally believe that the ortho/AIPAC/fundie alliance is a Devil's bargain, but I think it complicates this analysis.

    Anti-semitism has always been based on anomolous hatred -- the Jews are feared as both commies and exploiting capitalists.

    But this is different -- sort of a love/hate paradigm.

    •  My business partner is gay (4.00)
      We have had our business for 15 years.

      In many ways, he is more conservative than I am.  But up until a few years ago, he was encouraged by what was happening.

      Now he is afraid.  And rightly so.

      We must stand forthrightly against this fascism.

      It is the fight worth fighting.

      •  He should be afraid... (4.00)
        the Gays are way up there on the Bush wack list. The Bush Hate crimes with gays started a while back, but came to a head this past election with the Gay Marriage Wedge issue they created. They planned that whole shitty, disgusting thing. Interesting how he started with "Uniter..not a divider", how he fucked his way into the White House, by giving it to Gore in the ass. I bet somewhere in BushCo, Terry Randall is on their Armstrong Williams list of Paid employees. They need those sometimes silent crazy fucks to rabble the silent scary troops in the deep south.
                  Who else are they going to target? The Religious Right is theirs...They have the Rich..They have the uneducated(can you imagine..and they are fucked the most)..They have the ones that are terrified of Terrorist...The majority of the poor, pathetic, ignorant Americans are the ones that put him back in office and they are the ones that he is Fucking with the most. Their kids will not be educated (just want Bush wants..so he can draft them into more wars) and public schools have been raped...

                  They even conned more Jews this past election into voting for them down Florida way...It is frightening...horrificly, stupifyingly, frightening as Hell. I feel nobody can even hear the call..the word...that this Bush Administration is evil...pure evil...out to fuck everyone but big business and only put money into the pockets of their own.

                  America if she ever survives..shall be in mourning for many years to come after this 8 years of torture that George W. Bush has put her through. How did we become the enemy?

        *We live in a Nation of LAWS* 11th Circuit

        by Chamonix on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:14:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have often commented that the 'shit list' (4.00)
          ... under these criminals goes thusly:

          1. Ragheads/Muslims
          2. Homos
          3. Kikes

          Wolfowitz, Lieberman, et. al. should wise up.  The Jews are never far from the top of the list.
          •  You are 100% on board.. (4.00)
            and in their minds..that is exactly what I think...poor pathetic mary cheney...trying to get all the money she can now off her fathers name...then she will take it all and skip the US and live in Amsterdam with her lover. Totally agree about Wolfie and Torturman..can they just look around and see what company they keep..fucking fools...I'm recently thinking an Island in Spain...Mallorca...or perhaps the French Alps or even the outback..the dream has ended. I have no hope.

            *We live in a Nation of LAWS* 11th Circuit

            by Chamonix on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:26:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Bob, ...don't forget the Mexicans (4.00)
            HATE radio has really been scape goating them since the election....and the rank and file are in rage: "it's all their fault...everything."
          •  Don't forget black people... (4.00)
            Hitler's argument was that Jews used black folks to screw up the world, too.

            Then there's the Southern contingent just salivating to have a few more night rides under their belts.

            ...and if you're black and gay, you've already got problems at home, if not outside of home.

            One-fifth of the people are against everything all the time.--Bobby Kennedy

            by blksista on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:16:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Lost cause... (none)
        ...until you are willing to spill your own blood over it.  I hear lots of words here.  I don't hear anybody willing to make the sacrifice.

        Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae

        by Truckle on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:29:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mmmm, (4.00)
          understand what you are saying, but also realize that there are a lot of us here who have already been willing to spill our blood to "defend" the Constitution by our military service and engagement in hostile actions from Vietnam, Grenada, Panama (me), Gulf Wars I & II.  Granted, I don't believe that those excusions were necessary to defend our Constitution, but we took the oath and went believing that.  I personally feel that I took that oath for life and I hope not, but there might be a time when we have to defend it against the domestic enemies - and I will be there, grossly underarmed, but willing to spill my blood because if I don't, I will never be able to look my grandchildren in the eye, or myself in the mirror.  Somethings are worth spilling one's own blood for.  -my opinion.

          "There must be some way out of here, said the Joker to the Thief" -Bob Dylan is my god

          by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:44:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You don't know what you're talking about. (4.00)
          The minute they make it illegal to be gay, and they try to round up my gay and lesbian friends, they'll have to get to them through me first. Count on it.  
          •  They are counting on it (none)
            don't think they won't take you out to get to them.  

            just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming

            by confusedintexas on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:24:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Bless you but... (none)

            ...but there were people who helped hide Anne Frank, and my dad.  There just aren't enough of you, Heartpine.  

            People who have kids... people who feel too threatened themselves... people who are in denial... people who are too confused to take action...

            It ends up becoming a vast majority.

            •  Clarification- (4.00)

              I'm not advocating that we throw our arms up and give up.

              I'm just arguing that, when it reaches the point that you have to do that for your gay friends, it's too late.

              We need to be ready to pull all alarms, go into emergency mode, well before then.  We need to fight it NOW, and the moment some of this Religious Right starts getting more than lipservice on these things, we activate our emergency plans.

              Problem is, as of now, nobody has such plans.  Nobody's prepared for this.  

              Some of the big Jewish groups have the structure necessary to make such plans, but they are far too complacent.  They still think this is about figuring out whether Bush is good for Israel or not.  They need to wake up.

              •  I think... (none)
                You just clarified what I was trying to say in the first place.

                I'd add that anybody who might be discriminated against (and a reason can always be found) should be uniting not making seperate plans.

                Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae

                by Truckle on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:12:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Already done it (none)
          All I want to do is to live my live in peace without causing any trouble.  That is what I used to think.  Until the first time I got my ass kicked for the horrible crime of being gay.  Don't tell me about spilling my blood.  I already have and it wasn't my choice.  I make a choice every single day to walk out of my front door and go to work and hope that I won't get attacked by some lower primate because of who I am.  Hell, the first time I got beat up I wasn't even out of the fucking closet yet!  I'll let you know about sacrifice the next time the local teenage thugs spray paint "DYKE" across my garage door.  Just to let you know, I am not even one of those totally out there homosexuals, that "throws" it in everyones face.  Hell, that'd be like suicide as far as I'm concerned.  My only problem I guess is that I don't apologize for it.  Sorry if I seem a little angry, I didn't mean to go off on you.

          "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program." - G.W. Bush; 11/2/00

          by pilotweed on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:36:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, you have that right... (none)
            I wasn't talking about the kind of shite you have gone through or live with.  I don't have a solution for you.  Presumably you want to stay where you are rather than go live in a more civilised place.

            FWIW, I personally and regretfully am somewhat homophobic.  But that didn't stop me letting my (so far straight) 13 year old daughter performing in a comnedy in the Gay and Lesbian comedy festival.  Some of us are aware of our own prejudices and do all we can to counter them, although even that is somewhat patronising.  I'm sorry.

            Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae

            by Truckle on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:09:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Jews or gays? (none)

        Interesting, because I associate the hatred of Hollywood, Liberals, New York and San Fran, as an anti-gay sentiment.  I don't think Jewish people are in any particular danger, unless they're gay.  

        The atmosphere against gays can't be all that far from the atmosphere against Jews (and gays) in 1920's Europe.  That doesn't mean catastrophe will happen, or is even likely.  But it does mean it's a real possibility.  And if it does, what's most likely in my view is criminalization/violence/imprisonment.  

        What can we do?  What can we do?  What can we do?

        It's a question I ask myself often.  I give money.  I campaign before elections.  I speak out.  But I feel impotent.

        It's infuriating, because I know that if there is a time to stop it, it's NOW.  There is always a point of no return, when the momentum is too great to stop.  Tomorrow may be the point of no return.

        •  BUT... (none)

          ...having said all that, I appreciate this diary.  I am Jewish, and most Jews don't see any serious risk and are not unleashing their "Never Again" forces.  We need to.  Damn it, we NEED to.  It seems that people won't believe it until they've seen it... again!  

          This time, it's playing in this direction: first it was the Arabs, then it was the Gays, then it was the Judiciary, then it was the political opposition... and then they came for me, but it was too late.

          Only problem is, when it goes beyond the Arabs (Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo), I think the point of no return is only weeks or months away.

    •  Divide and Conquer (4.00)
      I've noticed fairly recently that overt anti-semitism has become acceptable on the right, with one caveat.  The acceptable Jew to rail against is the secular Jew.

      It's a Divide and Conquer strategy, trying to divide the more religious Jews against the more secular Jews.  Orthodox Jews teaming up with the religious right just seems foolish.  Partly it's a bad idea, because it puts the religious right in the position of determining who is and who is not a "good Jew".  Then of course is the whole history of such "alliances" touring out quite badly.  In his youth, Martin Luther was quite friendly to Jews.  However, when it became clear that they weren't conventing, this friendliness turned to hostility.  He wrote a book "On the Jews and their Lies".  Here's an excerpt from this piece of excrement:

      Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

      First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now, but that we have now given them their due reward.

      Second, that all their books their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible, be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted. For they use all of these books to blaspheme the Son of God, that is, God the Father himself, Creator of heaven and earth, as was said above; and they will never use them differently.

      Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country. They may do this in their own country or wherever they can without our being obliged to hear it or know it. The reason for this prohibition is that their praise, thanks, prayer, and doctrine are sheer blasphemy, cursing, and idolatry, because their heart and mouth call God the Father Hebel Vorik as they call his Son, our Lord Jesus, this. For as they name and honor the Son, thus they also name and honor the Father. It does not help them to use many fine words and to make much ado about the name of God. For we read, "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain" [Exod. 20:7]. Just as little did it avail their ancestors at the time of the kings of Israel that they bore God's name, yet called him Baal.

      Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it, because their blasphemous and accursed mouth and heart call God's Son Hebel Vorik, and thus also call his Father that. He cannot and will not interpret this otherwise, just as we Christians too cannot interpret it otherwise, we who believe that however the Son is named and honored thus also the Father is named and honored. Therefore we must not consider the mouth of the Jews as worthy of uttering the name of God within our hearing. He who hears this name-from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away. And may no one be merciful and kind in this regard, for God's honor and the salvation of us all, including that of the Jews, are at stake!

      •  All I can say is Wow (none)
        I am a recovered Lutheran having spent my K-9 education in a church school. I guess I should not be shocked that I have never heard this before. Luther was a vile fvck.

        I think if my family ever brings up religion again I may just send them the first two quoted paragraphs and ask them to tell me who wrote it.

        •  They do like to keep it quiet. (none)
          My first year of college, I went to a small Lutheran college.  In one of the religion classes, someone brought up Luther's anti-semitism, and the professor  dismissed it by saying that he was an old man when he wrote it - basically saying he was senile and insane, so we'll ignore it.

          That was the first that I had ever heard about Luther's anti-semitism, and it wasn't until years later that I actually saw his book "On the Jews and their Lies".

          The thing is that Luther is practically venerated.  If Lutherans were to add saints, Luther would be canonized instantly.  Wesley, founder of the Methodist Church doesn't get this kind of veneration, for example.  But Luther is venerated throughout protestantism.

      •  Excellent Point (4.00)
        And Soros is the poster boy for the "atheist secular Jew".
  •  For Once, We Agree... (2.44)
    I am scared. And you should be scared, too..."

    I'm scared too.

    "I think that is where we stand... on the precipice  of a new and murderous fascism."

    I think so too.

    "I will stand against this fascism.  I will argue against accommodation.  (There is no accommodation with these fascists.)

    We must resist. We must remember the lessons of the Nazis.  No one owns the absolute truth.  

    The absolute truth does not exist.

    And those who are convinced that they hold the absolute truth are the most dangerous of all."

    And I will stand with you....

    I just wish YOU would act less like a Jerry Springer Guest in your comments to others. It undermines your integrity and thoughtful positions, and is hurtful to those who don't deserve your venom.

    Tom DeLay is so corrupt...<HOW CORRUPT IS HE?>...He's so corrupt that when he takes the Oath of Office, he holds his hand OUT instead of UP!

    by mlkisler on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:40:20 PM PDT

    •  Look.. (4.00)
      That particular poster is an idiot who posts the same bullshit over and over.  No rational argument, just the same old, tired shit.

      He is not worth respecting.  (Read his posting history of you doubt me.)

      I refuse to accept such acommodationist bullshit.  And I will fight it to the death.

      Which is where I think we are heading.

    •  Interesting... (none)
      Bob Johnson rates me a 4, but bashes me, so other posters rate me a 2 based on Bob's bashing.

      How does THAT work?

      Tom DeLay is so corrupt...<HOW CORRUPT IS HE?>...He's so corrupt that when he takes the Oath of Office, he holds his hand OUT instead of UP!

      by mlkisler on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:52:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong: (none)
         4) For Once, We Agree... [2.66], by mlkisler, Rated: 2
        Posted on 04/16/2005 23:40:20 PDT
        Rated on 04/16/2005 23:46:14 PDT

        Look.. (4.00 / 2)

        by Bob Johnson on Sat Apr 16th, 2005 at 23:46:19 PDT

        5 seconds says not.

        The dark at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming age.

        by peeder on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:01:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ummm..... (none)
          THIS is what I was referring to:

          Others have rated this comment as follows:
          Bob Johnson     4
          Appstate     2
          peeder       2

          For an AVERAGE of 2.66

          Tom DeLay is so corrupt...<HOW CORRUPT IS HE?>...He's so corrupt that when he takes the Oath of Office, he holds his hand OUT instead of UP!

          by mlkisler on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:06:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  For christfuckinsake... (4.00)
            Get over yourself.

            Who gives a rat's fucking ass about ratings?

            Get off your navel, and please, please don't fuck up my diary with your self-important belly-button gazing.

            Thanks.

            •  OK that made me laugh (4.00)
              And I see the "five seconds" he's referring to now.
              Missed that on the first pass.

              Tom DeLay is so corrupt...<HOW CORRUPT IS HE?>...He's so corrupt that when he takes the Oath of Office, he holds his hand OUT instead of UP!

              by mlkisler on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:22:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  That list's sorted by user number, dudeman... n/t (none)

            Does George Bush remember he put his hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution, and not the other way around? -- Bill Maher

            by ragnark on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:25:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't rate (none)
        Bob Johnson rates me a 4, but bashes me, so other posters rate me a 2 based on Bob's bashing.

        you a two based on Bob's accurate statement. I rated you a two based on lack of substance and forcing personal conflicts into an otherwise interesting discussion.

        "...the definition of a gaffe in Washington is somebody who tells the truth but shouldn't have." Howard Dean

        by colleen on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:55:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Just because I'm so contrary (4.00)
    and don't know any better, I'm going to disagree.

    I don't think there's a systematic anti-Semitism in this administration. Very few people of note in this country hate Jews as such. I do, however, think there are several easily confused phenomena:

    1. Everyone knows how some Evangelicals are fond of saying that Jews, like Catholics and everyone else, are going to hell because they haven't accepted Christ etc. Not a nice thing to predict for a person, certainly. But it's not like these people want Jews to go to hell. The attitude that would be appropriate to this belief would be pity, or perhaps a silly-fools-don't-they-know-they'll-burn-forever exasperation. It doesn't seem like the kind of belief that would lead to anti-Jew legislation

    2. Anti-academia, anti-Hollywood, and anti-judiciary sentiment is running high in the GOP right now. And it is true that Jews are historically, and probably currently, overrepresented in those fields. It's also true that the popular smears against these groups were mostly originally used with anti-Semitism in mind. Nonetheless, I don't think Republicans hate these groups because they're Jews (hint: they hate them because they're liberal), and I think that they use the once-anti-Semitic insults mostly detached from their etymology. Ignorant, no doubt, but not anti-Semitic.

    Most importantly, government-sponsored anti-Semitism seems just too much like Nazi Germany for most people. The GOP may be able to con the American people into going along with a lot of their schemes, but government persecution of Jews just activates everybody's internal alarm. The vast majority knows in its heart that anti-Semitism is wrong, and if nothing else, looking like Nazis is bad at the polls.
    •  The internal alarms (4.00)
      have broken in far too many Americans from over-use.

      Gradually the unthinkable becomes acceptable.

      Read your Zimbardo and Milgram et al. if you just can't believe it.

      The dark at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming age.

      by peeder on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:51:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Argentina (none)
      I don't know much about the slide into fascism in Argentina. My understanding is that it wasn't exactly officially anti-Semitic and probably was supported by some conservative Jews, but that, in effect, it was a shift that was hard on Jews probably drew on anti-Semitic undercurrents.

      I also think that the anti-Iraq-war movement on the right seems to be edging closer to true anti-Semitism than the progressive anti-Iraq-war movement.

    •  Well, I'll tell you that this diary was spurred (4.00)
      ... by a very specific circumstance.

      My wife and I went out on a "date" last night.  We had been incredibly busy as a family and we went out (sans children) for a light meal and a drink about 9:00.

      Unfortunately, we ran into a woman (and her entourage) who owns a local clothing store -- a place I have frequented for gifts for my wife for many years.  (It's a great store and the woman has wonderful taste.)

      But this woman was drunk when we ran into her, and she proceeded to -- literally -- grab my wife by the arm and drag us, along with her group, to their next destinantion... another bar.

      I was pissed and just wanted to leave, but my wife -- being the kind soul that she is -- began a conversation with this woman.

      What emerged was an anti-Semitic diatribe that frightened both of us.  

      "The media is controlled by Jews."

      "The Jews should apologize to Europe."

      It was frightening.

      As a policy, I don't argue with drunks.  A waste of time.

      We left.

      But the unease we felt was enormous.  Because it wasn't just us with her. It was a slew of people.  Her employees, friends and spouses of employees and friends.

      All I could think of was the Nazis, spreading propaganda that the Jews were the root of all of the country's problems.

      And then I looked at our own economy.  And I wondered...  How far are we from an economic catastrophe that is looking for a scapegoat?

      And who will that scapegoat be?

      The same as it always has been...

      •  Well, there you go. (none)
        Didn't I say I didn't know any better? What's wrong with some people?
      •  Good Christ (4.00)
        That story strains my imagination.

        Jews apologize to Europe? Hello?

        Whose talking points was this goy fed?

        I'll tell you one thing: we should all pull our weight and ensure that BushCo economic policy doesn't actually send the country down the shithole. Because when times get tough, small minds seek small pride in attacking others based on coarse categorizations.

        The dark at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming age.

        by peeder on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:25:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  How many were uncomfortable? (none)
        Does the following mean that her party agreed with her, or were they as appalled as you?

        "But the unease we felt was enormous.  Because it wasn't just us with her. It was a slew of people.  Her employees, friends and spouses of employees and friends."

        "We cannot let terriers and rogue nations hold this nation hostile. - W, 09/09/00

        by Bob Love on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:30:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bob, I couldn't tell you (4.00)
          Because I didn't know the others.  Ther was one woman -- a Brazillian -- who took offense to her characterization of Ted Koeppel as " a Jew Israel apologist and fascist."

          Granted, I don't agree with Koeppel's politics (in general) but I certainly wouldn't put any such disagreement in terms of his religious convictions.

          I'm not sure what the others felt.

          But we felt dirty when we left.

          •  I understand. (4.00)
            I don't blame you.  I'm glad her entire party wasn't of the same mind as her.  It's funny, so many of us are so live-and-let-live that we don't keep our debating skills sharp, or our readiness with a retort.  

            But rest assured, she's against all of us, not just Jews.

            "We cannot let terriers and rogue nations hold this nation hostile. - W, 09/09/00

            by Bob Love on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:10:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Feeling dirty (none)
            Wow, Bob, that's a really scary story. And that's exactly how I've felt when I encounter that kind of bigotry -- I feel dirty and hurt.

            I've been a little obtuse in reading the subtext that you are calling out in this diary, but I'm going to start paying closer attention.  All the religious talk has made me queasy, frankly.

            And for the record, I've been called an "Israel apologist and fascist" too -- right here at DailyKos.

            In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

            by Paul in Berkeley on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:27:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Fuck ,.... she's gooper (4.00)
        did you know she was a gooper?

        that "jews run da' media" crap says it all.  

        It's a ugly, ugly, gutter version of "Liburel" media bias.  Remember how David Brock quoted Annthrax saying she couldn't wait to get out of New york "to get away from all the jews."

        could you tell why she was angry, obviously it had to with Shrub.

        I mean, we here think the media is biased, but not for an ethnic reason (corporate controll, consolidation, fear, lazyness, group think, ideology, greed, etc.)

        •  No! (none)
          She's a liberal (granted, with an Eastern European upbringing).

          She is a flaming liberal, in fact.

          But her prejudice was worn with pride.  With a surety that scared the living shit our of my wife and me.

          We know this person.  But we were startled.

          No more shopping in her store...

          •  I know it's insane...but (none)
            ...but could you figure out what her beef was?

            For example the HATE rank and file blame the Mexicans for unemployment and state deficits and poor education funding.

            They never blame the employers or Big Bidnezz.

          •  Liberal bigots exist. (none)
            Yes, my mother-n-law is like that - a liberal Catholic who couldn't vote for Gore because he was running with a Lieberman.  She did vote for Kerry, though.

            I believe her "reasons" have something to do with "Them" owning or running everything ... the "Jews are usurous bankers" routine that's been going around since (literally) the Dark Ages.

            I think it only takes one little pamphlet, or speech, or essa, come upon at the right moment, that can make someone a bigot for life - unless they can be forced to think again.

            "We cannot let terriers and rogue nations hold this nation hostile. - W, 09/09/00

            by Bob Love on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:17:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Will You Confront Her (none)
        When she's sober?

        Will you explain to her why you will NEVER patronize her store again?

        Just curious.

        Tom DeLay is so corrupt...<HOW CORRUPT IS HE?>...He's so corrupt that when he takes the Oath of Office, he holds his hand OUT instead of UP!

        by mlkisler on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:50:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That is alarming. What part of the country (none)
        do you live in?

        What was the age of this woman? I am assuming she is European.

        What I am about to say is a generalization and I am reporting impressions of experiences I had as a teenager that seem similar to the kind of feelings this woman had. I do not mean to cast aspersions on any cultural or ethnic group. This is about kids I knew in high school during a certain period of the twentieth century that was much closer to WW II than we are now.

        I am 51 and grew up in a suburb of Toronto. When I was in high school in the late sixties, I took a lot of language courses including German. I had many children of immigrants from eastern Europe in my German class, plus a few Germans. The hostilities of WW II were alive for these teenage kids, who had not fought in that war (of course), but whose parents were at least severely affected by it, and probably in most cases activelt participated. I think a lot of these kids' parents were anti-semitic and they were also against each other's countries--it was like a mini-Balkans in that class. A kid would occasionally errupt with a controversial opinion about WW II and it would become very intense. So I think for a certain group of people from some parts of Europe who are probably now in their seventies and eighties, there is still a lot of anti-semitism and nationalism.

        I also knew a few Serbian, Croatian, Macedonian, Lithuanian, Lativian, Estonian, and Ukrainian kids. They were generally somewhat anti-semitic, anti-Russian, and anti-each-other, and what was most noticeable, they were VERY nationalistic. Obviously, these feelings came from the parents. These kids were living in Scarborough, Ontario, so what did they know about the enmity between Serbia and Croatia at that time? It had to come from the parents. So this generation is now in their early 50s.

        Zt is not that "native" Canadians were so tolerant in the past. I read an excellent article about the city of Toronto in the first half of the 20th century. It was chiefly Protestant with Canadian-born and UK immigrants. It was anti-semitic, anti-Catholic, anti-French, and just about anti-everyone-else. The city changed dramatically for the good in the last half of the 20th Century. In the early 1970s, I had an Indian boyfriend who was at the U of T  (Indian from India). I was once waiting for a street car to go back to my apartment and we kissed each other goodbye. A man said to me--"Don't kiss that Paki." Although I suspect there are still Torontonians with those opinions, Toronto is now a very multicultural city with lots of cross-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-racial marriages and friendships--in some respects, more than you see here. So a lot of the people I am speaking about could have moderated their opinions by now, or their opinions have been superseded by younger people with more enlightened opinions.

        The country itself has deliberately carved a multicultural identity with some success. There are pockets of people who hate it, but they do not seem to be dominant.

        Of course, that is in Canada. Here we have our leaders deliberately exploiting people's prejudices.

        I don't know if the United States had the same kind of immigration patterns as Canada. My understanding is that there was a lot of eastern European immigration to the mid-west and Chicago area, but I am generalizing. The main point is that a lot of these hatreds are (amazingly) still very vivid for European immigrants of a certain generation and they don't accept OUR dominant narrative about World War II completely.

        I am worried too. My husband is Jewish and my son is half-Jewish. (My son is not technically Jewish but he is Jewish enough for both the Nazis and the Law of Return.) But I think the people who are whipping up feelings of hatred now are scapegoating liberals and Democrats in general. Of course, the Jews and gays have a special hatred in that hierarchy of hatreds.

        The U.S. government has been taken over by organized crime.

        by lecsmith on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:39:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I can (none)
        understand your position.  And to kind of drive it home so to speak:  Take a look at the dominionists goals and replace the word "Christian" with the word "Aryan" and the whole thing becomes totally clear.
      •  Yes, but should the Jews apologize (4.00)
        to the old Europe or the new Europe? This fascist shit gets so confusing.
      •  To echo another poster ... (none)
        Where do you live???!!!

        And how old was this woman?

        "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

        by Glinda on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 09:54:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  any Catholics here? (4.00)
      To your comment:
      "Very few people of note in this country hate Jews as such. "

      I would bet that most Americans raised in traditional Catholic or fundamentalist homes heard the sentence "The Jews killed Christ" come out of the mouth of someone in their family while growing up. I doubt my family was unique.

      Think about the Yugoslav civil war of the late 1980's. People living for decades in relative peace (or at least tolerance) were moved to act in the most horrific ways against each other by a small handful of nationalistic, power-hungry leaders exploiting ancient prejudices.

      In every Catholic Church on Good Friday, the people in the pews recreate the condemnation of Christ. The people play the role of the Jews in the crowd. When asked by the priest, playing Pontius Pilot, what to do with Christ, the people in the Church recite "Crucify Him."

      Think about it. On Good Friday, Catholics play the role of Jews, demanding that their savior by crucified. !!

      Year after year, how does this not build anti-Semitism, the kind that can be called upon in a heartbeat by a clever politician?

      •  I think the sentiment you describe... (4.00)
        ... is particular to Eastern Europe Catholicism.

        They remain defensive about the Holocaust and all that came before it that led to the Holocaust.

        I grew up in a predominately Irish Catholic neighborhood and parish, and I rarely, if ever, heard anti-Semitic comments.  Never from my parents and I can't recall any from friends or friends' parents, either.

        •  Don't have a link handy but... (none)
          The ADL came out with their annual (or bi-annual) survey about anti-semitism in the US.  Found that 9% of "white" people but over 30% of "Hispanic" people (how do they classify my wife's family which is Cuban and considers themselves both White and Hispanic) believe that "the Jews" (i.e. all Jews for all time) are responsible for the death of Christ.

          I'm going to generalize here and say that the predominant religion among Hispanics in the US is Catholicism.

          So I have two statistics that I can't substantiate, but I believe they refuse the "eastern europe catholicism."  John Paul the 2nd was the first pope to really reach out to Jews and he was criticized from within for doing it.  There is much concern among Jews I know (including myself) that the next pope will follow the same pattern as the rest of history - whenever there's been a "Pro-Jew" pope, it's been followed by harsh anti-Jew popes.

          -Fred

          Organizing my thoughts about how to win from 2005 forward - http://fredsfred.blogspot.com

          by FredFred on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:20:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree. (none)
            My Catholicism was not the Eastern European type. It was the Latin American variety, and I would agree with your observations that this Catholicism is rife with anti-Semitism. Perhaps its the need to blame an outsider for the centuries of endemic poverty. Perhaps its the conquest and colonial history of the church in the Americas.
        •  The Irish have other fish to fry . . . (4.00)
          "I grew up in a predominately Irish Catholic neighborhood and parish, and I rarely, if ever, heard anti-Semitic comments."

          The Irish nuns who dominated my childhood were too busy bashing the British to be anti-semitic. And wasn't there once a Jewish mayor of Dublin?

      •  I, Too (none)
        Am a (hotheaded) "fallen" Irish Catholic...Which probably explains why Bob & I clash so much!  :-)

        Tom DeLay is so corrupt...<HOW CORRUPT IS HE?>...He's so corrupt that when he takes the Oath of Office, he holds his hand OUT instead of UP!

        by mlkisler on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:30:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  After we jews were exonerated from the Crucifixion (none)
        with Vatican II, I had hte shit kicked out of me while being taunted with "Christ Killer". I was in sixth grade, the assailants were classmates, and the school did jack-shit about it. These "brave defenders of the faith" beat up a girl...
        did I mention I lived in "librul" California?

        it is STILL being taught.

        "My case is alter'd, I must work for my living." Moll Cut-Purse, The Roaring Girl - 1612, England's First Actress

        by theRoaringGirl on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:36:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Travel to the Southeast (4.00)
      I grew up in eastern TN.  My mother has blamed the Jews for just about everything that has ever happened to her, her friends, her family, you name it.  The truly remarkable thing about her is that she is almost universally seen as a kind, loving, giving person by her friends, who probably feel the same way she does about the Jews.  

      The other truly remarkable thing is that somehow I escaped from that millieu unscathed.  I don't live there and wouldn't move back for anything.  My sister still lives there, and is a Super Fundie Wonder Woman carrying the Old Rugged Cross into battle against all things liberal, morally relative, and humanistic.  She's an absolute lunatic.

      If you think nobody hates the Jews anymore, you just haven't seen it.  It's out there, alright, and it persists despite all accepted history.  For many people, the Holocaust is a myth, and the same psychopathology that permitted it is extant in this country today.  When the putsch comes, the scapegoat may not be the Jews, but there will be a scapegoat and the Jews are a handy place to start.  Add to that Democrats, liberals, gays, trial lawyers, judges, and you have the makings of a genuine purgative roundup.

      The Right has been on this case for 40 years.  They have finally achieved their dream of control over all branches of government, and they control the media.  If you think things cannot get out of hand because this is The United States, you need to read a bit more history.  Every society that has ever existed has fought this type of impulse, to one degree or another, and with varying levels of success.

      There's power and there's money...and then there's everybody else.

      by redcloud54 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:36:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  True story (4.00)
        Obviously, redcloud54, you know from whence you speak.

        I was in Ohio some years ago meeting my then-girlfriend's parents for the first time. I was in the backseat of her Daddy's Cadillac with her, he was driving with his wife (second wife, not my gf's mom) up front, taking us all out for a very expensive dinner, and he says to me:

        "So what religion are you, [IndyLib]?"

        "Uh," I stammered because I am not properly religious and I wasn't sure how to communicate that without offense. My girlfriend said her family wasn't religious so I wasn't expecting the question. I decided to go with a hedged, safe sort of answer. "Lapsed Catholic, I suppose. I was baptized Catholic but I've not been to mass since I was a child."

        "Oh. Okay. Well, lemme tell you somethin' 'bout them Jews..."

        At which point his wife smacked him and chastised, "Behave!"

        So I was never enlightened as to what it was about "them Jews", but I'm comfortable going all in that it wasn't a compliment coming out of his mouth. He is, naturally, a rabid partisan Republican. My ex barely speaks to him anymore.

        •  A stubborn prejudice (4.00)
          Even when presented with clear evidence of their kindness and humanity, many people are still willing to hate the Jews for seemingly no reason.

          My father was in Austria right after the war (you know, The Big War, The Last Good War), after having helped liberate several concentration camps.  He remarked that one of his most vivid memories of the place was the degree to which the Austrians blamed the Jews for the hardships of the Germans' defeat.  In the face of complete abnegation of the accepted root cause of Germany's destruction, the Austrians refused to let go of their hatred of this group.  I wish some scholarly person would comment on the persistence of this prejudice.  I don't get it.  

          If the Jews are singled out as the scapegoat in this country, however, I don't think it will end there.  They may be the spark, but anyone who is out of step with an increasingly narrow definition of "normal" will become a target.

          There's power and there's money...and then there's everybody else.

          by redcloud54 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:44:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Reading recommendation (none)
            I wish some scholarly person would comment on the persistence of this prejudice. I don't get it.

            Plenty of them comment. Either nobody listens or they're dismissed as ivory tower elitists, or nonsensical postmodernist wackaloons--and ime those criticisms often arise from the left and the center, so they're the least hostile. As far as the right, if anyone on the left brings up a discussion or analysis of anything even related to fascism the entire right freaks out and either accuses the entire left of 'sympathizing with Nazis' or screams 'stop calling us Nazis'! It's very, very difficult to have the conversation in any kind of open space--I almost think it's one of fascism's evolved protective traits, like how some predatory animals are able to hide right out in the open because the prey mistakes them for something else.

            Not long ago I read a little book called Welcome to the Desert of the Real, which was written by theorist Slavoj Zizek right after 9/11 as a sort of analysis of the event, what led to it, and the immediate response to it. Frankly, although I've enjoyed Zizek's previous work, I'm still struggling with the ideas he presents in it. Nonetheless, I recommend it even if only for the contemplation of all the complexity. It discusses a variety of facets of identity politics, including the role foisted upon Jews (among other Others) in the big war...and in this 'new' war, the meta-war, the ongoing war.

            If the Jews are singled out as the scapegoat in this country, however, I don't think it will end there. They may be the spark, but anyone who is out of step with an increasingly narrow definition of "normal" will become a target.

            Speaking as a disabled lesbian who is just plain weird in about 10K other ways, I am all too familiar with this already.

          •  My analysis: (none)
            There is a natural (animal) instinct in everyone to identify outsiders (non-mother, non-family, non-community, non-tribe).

            As I described above, the Holy Week tradition in Catholicism (and perhaps in other versions of Christianity) to re-enact the condemnation of Christ by having the parishoners play the role of the Jews who condemn Jesus to death, it pure POISON. Year after year, how can Catholics not be anti-Semitic? Its beaten into them. The biological instinct to identify outsiders is exploited by the Church to identify Jews as the enemy.

    •  Fascism not Anti-semitism (4.00)
      Fascism is a system of government in which the corporations and government work together to rule the people. Anti-semitism is NOT a necessary component.

      Fascism becomes, of necessity, a dictatorial system, because individuals rebel against the amoral corporate dominance of the culture.

      Under dictatorial systems, squelching, and possibly, elimination of those individuals who pose a problem via dissent becomes a paramount concern. The first groups to become dissenters are the ones that the government scapegoats as the supposed cause of the ills in the society - a scapegoat being necessary as fig leaf for the government's failures.

      As one group, due to successful squelching efforts or elimination, ceases to be dominant enough to be effective as a scapegoat, a new group is targetted, and so on. Fascism is not much different from other forms of dictatorship, it's just more businesslike and systematic in its methods of suppression/oppression/elimination.

      Under fascism, the "Jews" can be actual or metaphorical, but the scapegoat role must be filled by someone.  And, really, since fascism seems to arise in nations where the flames of raging fundamentalist Christianity burn most brightly, the Jews eventually end up as one of the scapegoated groups - even if the persecution begins as thinly veiled metaphors (like Hollywood)

      In Germany, the persecution began with gays.  Pink triangles were in (government-imposed) vogue before the equally-despicable yellow stars made their way onto the world stage.

      Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze.
      ePluribus Media - Donate!

      by mataliandy on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:39:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not that it matters much (4.00)
        "In Germany, the persecution began with gays."  Not that it matters much now, but I believe the first target of Nazis were the gypsies.  But thank you, that was all stated with admirable clarity.

        "We cannot let terriers and rogue nations hold this nation hostile. - W, 09/09/00

        by Bob Love on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:59:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good point (4.00)
          You are right. First it was a straight-up nationalist bigotry against "outsiders," then it moved on to "impure" insiders, where purity was defined according to extremist Christian rules - allowing for those insiders to be declared outsiders.

          First citizenship was redefined to exclude Jews, then, via the Nurember Laws, law was declared to apply only to citizens:

          "(3)  Only the citizen of the Reich may enjoy full political rights in consonance with the provisions of the laws."

          Thus Jews became non-citizens with no rights under the law. Once you're defined as having no rights (like, say a so-called "enemy combatant" nowadays), it's pretty easy to ship you off somewhere in the middle of the night, and make sure you never return.

          Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze.
          ePluribus Media - Donate!

          by mataliandy on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:21:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Inaccurate. (none)
            Many patriotic Germans went to concentration camps.  Marxistrs were among the first to go.

            Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae

            by Truckle on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:01:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly (none)
              Communists were the first to go.

              Start doing the things you think should be done, and start being what you think society should become. -Adam Michnik.

              by GreenSooner on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:02:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Yup (4.00)
              I am currently living in Dortmund.  A few blocks from my flat is the Steinwache, a notorious Gestapo prison that is now a museum.  The victims there were not Jews, but German partisans.  Very pretty young women and very handsome young men among the photos of the executed.  There was even a proletarian youth gang here who beat up the namby-pamby Hitler Youth kids coming home after school.  I refer to these as the true "Good Germans".  They were almost all SPD or communists and there is a park here with mass graves of Germans executed by the SS right before the Allies arrived.  They even had a device that held the pistol for the shoot in the back of the head but protected the Gestapo men from the blood because they didn't want to "ruin" their suits.  Grotesque and evil.

              "There must be some way out of here, said the Joker to the Thief" -Bob Dylan is my god

              by Jeffersonian Democrat on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:02:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  To the concentration camp, yes (none)
              Before the concentration camps started, however, plain-old deportation was the standard practice.

              The concentration camps were devised when it became clear that deportation wasn't making the problem go away, it was making things worse, because those deported were spreading the alarm about the government-generated/encouraged bigotry and oppression.  Then it was decided that all so-called "threats" to the fatherland should be disappeared, not just pushed out.

              Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze.
              ePluribus Media - Donate!

              by mataliandy on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:57:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Teaching about fascism (none)
        I think that our local school system does a pretty good job of teaching the history of Nazi Germany, but I am not so sure that the present-day applicability comes through. Do our kids understand scapegoating, the uses and techniques of propaganda, rhetoric?  Should we be TIVO'ing Fox "News" Channel and showing the techniques?
    •  sure they do. (none)
      But it's not like these people want Jews to go to hell.

      What they want is for their interpetation of the bible to be accurate. Which means that those of us who do not convert to their view will go to hell. In other words they don't hate Jews, they hate the sin of being Jewish. In the practical world of course the results look exactly like hate.
      I was raised around these people. Believe me, they derive a great deal of pleasure from the thought of all manner of people they disagree with going to hell. It's an unfortunate way to settle an argument but there you have it.

      The attitude that would be appropriate to this belief would be pity, or perhaps a silly-fools-don't-they-know-they'll-burn-forever exasperation. It doesn't seem like the kind of belief that would lead to anti-Jew legislation

      Ah, but you forget that this is, for them, the End of Days and even if it isn't, they intend to make it so. And the spark which sets off the End of Days begins in Israel. The End Times have been predicted for a very long time. the problem is that this time the folks in charge have the tools to acomplish it.

      "...the definition of a gaffe in Washington is somebody who tells the truth but shouldn't have." Howard Dean

      by colleen on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:05:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the 2nd Amendment (4.00)
    For now, for Jews, for atheists, for gays and lesbians, for anti-war protestors and the vets with no legs, for writers and artists, there may (soon) come a time to fight.

    God bless the NRA.

    •  Eeek (none)
      I'm in 4 of the 6 categories you listed. And for the record, while I'm scared as hell, I plan to fight.

      I've been absolutely terrified every moment of my life and I've never let it keep me from doing a single thing that I wanted to do.
      --Georgia O'Keefe

    •  I've said for some time now... (4.00)
      The Democrats oughtta give up their anti-gun crusade.  Not only is it inconsistent to believe banning guns works, but banning drugs does not work, but I simply have come to believe we are headed down a dangerous path as a country, and when the shit hits the fan I need to be able to defend myself from the looters and rioters.

      On the upside, dropping gun control will vastly improve our electoral chances in the Mountain West.

      •  Prohibition In General Doesn't Work (none)
        Al Capone taught us that.   :o(

        Tom DeLay is so corrupt...<HOW CORRUPT IS HE?>...He's so corrupt that when he takes the Oath of Office, he holds his hand OUT instead of UP!

        by mlkisler on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:39:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You wanna get into an armed struggle.... (4.00)
      ....with these folks?!?  And they call us non-violent Greens political fantasists!

      Seriously, I'm all down with people being able to hunt, but the notion that the Second Amendment, either in theory or in practice, was designed to protect a practical right of revolution is both historically and politically nuts.  Leave this thought to the Timothy McVeighs, please!

      Start doing the things you think should be done, and start being what you think society should become. -Adam Michnik.

      by GreenSooner on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:07:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know the (4.00)
        intent of the original comment, but I'm considering learning how to use a gun for self-defense.  If it gets to the point where these fascists start coming for me, I'll defend myself to the best of my abilities.

        The above statement is coming from someone who was completely anti-gun until the theocrats started making their intentions very plain.

        I donated to ePluribus Media. Support citizen journalism!

        by mlk on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:23:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Call Me an Old-Fashioned Progressive... (4.00)
          ......but just be sure to get a trigger lock and/or gun safe for that weapon. It's a lot more likely to kill your kids than a theocrat. And, if the theocrats do take over, why should your possession of a firearm work any better for you than it does for any armed fugitive today?  Opposing the American state would take a lot more than a firearm or two.

          To return to the beaten-to-death and overplayed Nazi analogy, armed street violence didn't end up working out very well for the left in the Weimar Republic.  It both contributed to the sense of the illigitimacy of democracy, and helped the right, who outgunned the left.  

          Unfortunately, it's easier to use violence to create a political order ruled by force, than to use violence to create a political order ruled by more progressive principles. For better or for worse, guns do us less good than they do them.

          Start doing the things you think should be done, and start being what you think society should become. -Adam Michnik.

          by GreenSooner on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:05:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'll practice all safety precautions (none)
            Opposing the American state would take a lot more than a firearm or two.

            True and I don't pretend to think that I'd be invincible with a gun, but if I can at least know that I would be able to take a few of these fuckers out I'll feel better.  And to use another Nazi analogy, it'll be my Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

            I donated to ePluribus Media. Support citizen journalism!

            by mlk on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:46:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Hate to break this to you (none)
        but the Second Amendment is not about hunting.

        The Second Amendment is all about having an armed population to defend the Constitution (or the nation as defined in the Constitution) from enemies foreign and domestic. It's pretty obvious that the notion that the people must have both the right and the ability to topple their government when it becomes tyrannical was foremost in the minds of the founders, as that was exactly what had happened to them and what they in fact did.

        In order the mitigate against the necessity of having to topple a government that has become tyrannical, the founders created a form of government with hopefully enough checks and balances that it would be very difficult for the government to become tyrannical. If those checks and balances are destroyed, it's best that the population have a few options to seek remedy of the situation.

        That said, I fervently hope that the radicals in power today can be defeated entirely through electoral means and increasing awareness of the populace about what is going on. The alternative is pretty horrifying.

        "Those who betray the trust...are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors." - George HW Bush

        by DavidW in SF on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:24:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Half Agree (none)
          It's not about hunting, but it's also not about revolution. It's about a "well regulated militia," i.e. an alternative to a standing army as a way of defending a nation. (I only mention hunting because I'm really not one of those folks who wants to take away people's guns, though I would like to regulate them more.)

          I believe even Jefferson saw calling another constitutional convention, not having another armed revolt, as the best solution should the system of checks and balances break down.

          Start doing the things you think should be done, and start being what you think society should become. -Adam Michnik.

          by GreenSooner on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:44:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Revolution vs. deterrent (none)
        Yes, an armed revolution does seem absurd, and private arms can't stop violent tyranny. But they can somewhat deter it by raising its cost. An armed citizenry is one more imperfect check on central power. (But, I suspect, one of steadily decreasing effectiveness.)

        Republican conservatives are now boiled frogs.

        by technopolitical on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:29:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Are you a Jew? (none)
        This thread was about the growing anti-Semitism in the West. If I was a Jew (which I'm not), I'd be pretty scared. Jews certainly have the right to defend themselves. No one's talking about revolution. Just dignity.
    •  The NRA (none)
      Here is an alternative to the lefty stance:
      Recast/Reframe our gun concerns into a massive commitment to gun safety:
       stop trying to license/remove guns, stop trying to sue the gun manufacturers and start working to get them to incorporate safety features.

      Dems are NEVER gonna win western Red states as long as they hold a doctrinaire antigun stance, or allow the wingnuts to portray them as anti-gun.

      Don't flame me I am not an operative. Spitballing has to be allowed.

  •  It's the Counter-Revolution (4.00)
    Beginning in the 1950s the traditional hierarchy of American society has been challenged by all groups who were held in inferior positions by those who benefitted most at the top - Protestant Heterosexual males of Northwestern European extraction. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 destroyed one pillar of it - segregation. Had the Equal Rights Amendment passed in the late 1970s the second pillar - patriarchy - too would have been destroyed. Now, much of the generation that grew up during the height of the activism to tear down the patriarchy with parents that likely opposed it are making a last ditch effort to try and turn the clock backwards. Unfortunately for them, as it was for Prince Metternich of Austria, the clock can never be turned backwards in a society undergoing rapid socioeconomic change. Just as the attempt to preserve absolute monarchies in an age of liberal democracy proved futile in the long run, so to will this last effort to restore the social world of the early 1950s be unsuccessful. Demography (a 50:50 European-American to non-European-American population by 2050) and the change of generations (the social and cultural attitudes of the current MTV generation is much more open than that of the current politically dominant baby boomer generation) will, in the end, win out. The United States will continue to become more cosmopolitan over time, not less. And the ideological basis of the Republican Party as it is being formulated now can not survive in those circumstances.

    "We Need To Find Courage...Overcome...Inaction Is A Weapon Of Mass Destruction..."(Faithless "Mass Destruction")

    by DanceboyOH on Sat Apr 16, 2005 at 11:57:15 PM PDT

    •  To clarify.. (none)
      "Now, much of the generation that grew up during the height of the activism to tear down the patriarchy with parents that likely opposed it are making a last ditch effort to try and turn the clock backwards."

      I mean to say "parents who opposed the attempts to tear down the traditional hierarchy."

      "We Need To Find Courage...Overcome...Inaction Is A Weapon Of Mass Destruction..."(Faithless "Mass Destruction")

      by DanceboyOH on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:00:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I presume you are referring to the parents (none)
        of the baby boomers in that statement?  Not the baby boomers?

        I am a baby boomer.  I am a Liberal.  My brother is Gen X.  He is an extremely conservative daddy-knows-best-and-rules-the-nest Republican.

        Baby boomers aren't trying to turn any clock back and they get blamed for so much. My mother's generation (retired) blames baby boomers for their size and, therefore, we have no right to social security like everyone else.  We would break the system. [go figure that one]  My Gen X brother blames the baby boomers for the Vietnam fiasco, the Kent State "losers" who "deserved" to be shot, loose morals, bad laws, a bankrupt economy, you name it --it's our fault.

        So, what's up with blaming baby boomers?

        Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

        by bronte17 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:07:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  however (none)
      the clock can never be turned backwards in a society undergoing rapid socioeconomic change.

      In the long run, this is probably true.

      However, as the entire world found out the hard way during World War II, in the short run, the people trying to turn the clock back can get a lot of people killed in their attempts to do so.

      Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

      by alizard on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:32:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Metternich (none)
      In historical terms Metternich did not succeed in turning the clock back--but for more than 30 years, from 1815-1848, his policies and ideology reigned triumphant in Europe.  
    •  Only if we can get to the (none)
      long run, and the short run may be very ugly.  What if Hitler had won?  Japan had never attacked the US?  What would the world look like today?  

      Yes, they both lost, but look at the lives lost and destruction created in those few short years?

      Pendulums swing -- periods of openness and period of repression.  There was over three decades between the Roaring Twenties and the Summer of Love.  The Great Depression, WWII and Communist witchhunts turned back the clock and kept it stuck in an earlier age.  It can happen again.  But IMHO it's going to take more than preachers and politicians to get us there.

      What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away

      by Marie on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 09:17:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's much easier to suspect and then grow to hate (4.00)
    people whose lives are different from yours, or at least people you perceive as different.  In a word, minorities.

    If you're a conservative white christian in this country, you can be easily manipulated to suspect gay folks, those with nonchristian religious beliefs, intellectuals, feminists, even union members!  Add these groups to those dusky-skinned and slant-eyed ones you already suspect, and it becomes that much easier to see that uhmurica is goin' to heck, and only jebus and W can save the country.

    These uhmurican sheeple care about nothing except getting their own, as they wait around for the rapture. BTW this ain't a coast versus middle part of the country thing IMHO. These gleefully ignorant and incurious jebus sheeple are in your neighborhood, wherever you live.

  •  When the time comes (4.00)
    There will be no distinctions.  There will only be enemies, whose identities will be selected by convenience, happenstance, and proximity.  It will be anyone who is the least bit out of step with the "accepted norm," which can be easily adapted for almost any situation.  Denunciations will be common among neighbors, acquaintances, co-workers, friends, and even family.

    No doubt, it will be well justified in the press, again and again, as a necessity to increase our security and well-being.  The message will be soothing to those who have been made fearful.  It will seem perfectly reasonable to the average citizen, and will be supported by most "responsible" intellectuals and pundits.  It's viciousnesss will increase imperceptibly, so that from one year to the next what would have been once unthinkable will seem perfectly natural.  

    By the time the majority realizes what has happened, it will be too late.

    "This Constitution is likely to be administered for a course of years and then end in despotism... when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other."

    Benjamin Franklin

    There's power and there's money...and then there's everybody else.

    by redcloud54 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:11:57 AM PDT

  •  It's the "other" (4.00)
    So yes, we should all of us most assuredly be afraid.

    Speaking as half a Jew, I'm not so very inclined to believe that it's all about the Jews. Witness the administration's not just unapologetic but outspoken support of Israel (yes, yes, Rapture, I know) and the fact that neoconservativism was founded by a Jew (yes, yes, intellectual, academic, all that) and that its ranks are rife with them/us.

    I agree that Jews are one group among MANY groups of "others" that those in power would like us to fear and loathe. The better to subjugate us. Hitler, to take what you posit to its logical, devastating conclusion, didn't just victimize Jews, but also gays, gypsies, and academics whether Jew or no. It was about anger and having scapegoats upon whom to unleash it. And I'm afraid it still is.

  •  Goddamit Bob... (4.00)
    ...you don't get to be frightened. You don't get to be scared. You get to be PISSED. You get to be angry.

    As I've said a few times now, everytime a liberal says he or she is scared, another freeper gets his wings, er, horns.

    They read this and someone in freeperville is high-fiving the born-again in-the-closet self-loathing everyone-else-hating repressed wingnut next to him and saying "Mission Accomplished."

    They are terrorists but, like all terrorists, they only succeed if they terrorize you. Do NOT let them succeed. Don't you dare be scared by these guys. Especially not you Bob.

  •  the slow descent (4.00)
    This slow descent into a neo-fascist state is something I recognized very early on, and I was often taken to task for being too pessimistic.

    Yet most of what I predicted would happen as early as mid-2002 on Billmon's and here, has indeed happened.  And tho I don't have a crystal ball, I see a lot worse coming down the road.

    I have the advantage of having spent some time in Fascist Spain when Franco was still alive (sort of) in 1970-72 and the "stench" of the fear and supine acceptance by the population is unmistakable. It's going to take a major kick in the gonads to shift the course of events in America.

    Ultimately, I think the pendulum will swing back (I give it a decade tho) but I think that the transition period will be very tough, economically, politically and mentally - Great Depression-tough. Like defeated Germany and Japan, or humbled USSR, France and Great Briain, or shamed Chile and Argentine, America as a whole is going to have to see itself differently.  Are we at that point yet? No chance.

    So as a direct result of all of this, my wife and I left the US and relocated to the South of France (blog) last January.  

    •  Looks like a beautiful place- (none)
      My husband read that there are incentives to move to the French countryside, we are considering it, if our near term plans do not work out.

      Not being French, how is it possible to relocate as you did?  I will catch up on your blog, and BTW, we have two teen animators I will refer your wifes blog to.  (My daughter draws Manga style female storylines), but also enjoys darker characters such as Invader Zim.

      Any info would be helpful-lilorphant@gmail.com

      Oh and I see you have a pizzaria nearby, absolutely critical for relocation!!

      •  Moving to France (none)
        My wife and I had dual citizenship, so that part of the move was very easy. We were lucky to both sell our house in LA for our asking price, and find a very affordable home in the Soith of France.

        I don't know of any incentives; there are however local subsidies for certain type of renovation work done on older houses, but it mostly benefits relatively poor people (like ourselves) so if you're reasonably wealthy, you wouldn't be eligible.

        At the end of the day, I wouldn't recommend moving to any country where you don't speak the language and don't have a modicum of understanding of local culture, etc. For us, France was ideal, for both personal and business reasons, but for others Spain or Italy might be preferable.

  •  Thanks! (4.00)
    As a member of plenty of minority groups that would have gotten me killed back when, and having grown up with survivors and relatives of survivors, I have seen this coming for years.  It's really nice when other people start seeing it too.  

    Now, what do we do about it?

    Of course he's written in the Lamb's Book of Life. He's the Antagonist.

    by ultrageek on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:29:07 AM PDT

  •  Do not despair, the misery upon us.. (4.00)

    Do not despair. The misery upon us is but the passing of greed, the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress

    You have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure.

    In the name of democracy, let us use that power. Let us all unite, let us fight for a new world, a world that will give men a chance to work, that will give youth a future, and old age security.

    Promising these things, brutes have risen. But they lie! They do not fulfil that promise. They never will! Dictators free themselves, but they enslave the people. Now let us fight to fulfil that promise! Let us fight to free the world, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance.

    Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to the happiness of all.

    Soldiers, in the name of democracy, let us all unite!

    Charlie Chaplin, 1940.

  •  Sorry guys, but.... (4.00)
    I was born Jewish, but am now an agnostic. While I agree that this borderline (am I being too magnanimous here?) insane administration and its henchmen have ultimately murderous intent toward many, I do also believe they are basically equal opportunity fascists with at least a grudging respect for what they perceive as Jewish intellect.

    If this is nor the case, then how do you explain the influence of Perle, Frum, Wolfie, Feith, RABBI Dov Zakheim (the comptroller of the Pentagon until recently),Michael Chertoff,etc.??
    Also how would you explain the fact that top Isreali military officers have for the past several years had almost unrestricted access to the most sensitive areas of the Pentagon in violation of all recognized and normal procedures??

    Also, how else would you explain Bush's reaction to Sharon when told to "jump" re not stopping or too severely criticizing his policies, i.e. "How high, Ariel?"

    I truly believe that W would much rather put a vociferously dissenting purebred WASP into the chambers (or at least Gitmo) than a Jewish person who is living quietly and keeping his opinions to himself. Should we all be very afraid? Absolutely! Should Jews be more afraid than others? personally I do not think so.

    Also, to the poster who ripped into Buchanan (who is not always playing with a full deck either) for dissing Mort Zuckerman on the McLaughlin Group, in this case he was justified, as Sharon has acted in a truly barbaric fashion regarding his treatment of Palestinians, and has set back the cause of peace in the region for generations. I also believe Sharon's main reason for visiting Crawford recently was to get W. to sign off (if he has not already done so)on the Iran bombing plan for late spring/early summer.

    •  Israel (4.00)
      Bush is pro-ISrael for biblical reasons. His particluar cult of Christ (as opposed to mainstream Christianity) believes the second coming is at hand and that in order for it to happen all Jews must return to Israel. So Israel must exist for the second coming to occur. So Bush doesn't care about Jews or Israel or peace in the Middle East except in the context of an apocalyptic vision of the near future.

      I actually started writing a fiction story based on this very idea, with Bush being the puppet of a millenial Christian cult. I was trying to decide what the final cataclysmic scene should be when 9/11 happened. I stopped writing it because it seemed too close for comfort. Now I realize that my ideas were even closer to the truth than I had ever realized.

      Delenda est Sinclair! http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Sinclair_Broadcast_Group

      by mole333 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:41:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  YES . . . .Bush is pro-Israel for biblical reasons (4.00)
        Let me preface by saying that I am a first generation American of 2 Holocaust survivors . . .

        The Jews in Israel are part of the apocalyptic puzzle . . . . Israel has to exist so there can be a SECOND COMING! Many, not all, fundamentalist Christian could care less about the Jews, but they need them. They have needed them throughout history to be the perfect Scapegoat . . . if something goes wrong there's always the Jews to blame . . . I know I sound paranoid, but on some level I feel that Bushco has surrounded itself with Jews, so that if something goes wrong . . . .guess who is going to get blamed . . . .it's not going to be the rich white Christian guys!

        Even our beloved FDR understood this dark aspect of our culture . . . .I include the US and Europe on this one, when he ignored the information about the concentration camps . . . FDR knew if the US seemed too sympathic to the Jews we could never enter WWII.

        The Jews that play ball with Bushco, must really believe that they are on an equal footing with this group, but I know in my heart, that if things go bad, THOSE JEWS WILL TAKE THE FALL.

        THE BUCK STOPS AT BUSH!

        by jhewett on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:50:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •   Correct....it's about the "End Times" (none)
        I occaisionally go over to Free Republic and lurk, and I know it is a wacky thing to do but I do it anyway.It helps me understand from where those yahoos come and why they think the way they do....admittedly, it is a bit of voyeurism. Anyway, the reason they claim to love Israel so much is exactly because of their belief in the impending apocalypse. They believe it's coming quickly, by the way. I guess I do too but the apocalypse I fear is the arrival and advancement of the Neo-cons.
        Check out the documentary "Bonhoeffer". It is about a German theologian who understood what was going on  in Germany leading up to Hitler and the third Reich..it is brilliant and it scared the BEEJEEZUS out of my husband and me.

        "Democrats win when people think"...Bill Clinton

        by Limabean on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:31:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •   I am not anti Jew but I do not support Israel... (4.00)
      seeing as that country has betrayed the US and killed American service men with not retribution. Just as bushco do not represent  true Americans,  Sharon does not represent the true Jew (at least in my opinion)  
      I want my $4billon a year back damn it!  
    •  Stirring things up (none)
      I doubt Bush's inner circle is anti-Semitic in the way that Hitler's was. I agree with the original diary's concerns, however, because the tactic of labeling political enemies "anti-Christian" has the potential for spinning out of control.

      Say the movement continues along its course, the Republican leadership maintains its current operational posture, Bush's religious judges are rammed through their nominations, the Supreme Court gets a couple Bush appointees who make Thomas and Scalia look like Justice Kennedy? Who'll be running the ship in five years? Will the current crop of leaders keep hold and pull back on the reins once they've gotten everything they want for the nonce? Or will someone emerge from the pack who doesn't see calling people "unbelievers" as a mere tactic and will a significant portion (not a majority) of the populace agree with then? The problem is, the slippery slope is being well-iced.

      There was an interesting quote from Teresa Kerry during the early part of the election, when the White House started calling her husband "French-looking": "They'll probably say he's French, he's Jewish ... he's a monkey."

      http://www.darrelplant.com/blog_item.php?ItemRef=109

      Those who do not learn from history are stupid. --darrelplant

      by darrelplant on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 09:42:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's not that simple (4.00)
    If you belong to certain groups, you're not marked for death ... you're going to get a choice.

    Not explicitly.  But implicitly.

    Gay?  Keep it on the down low?  Work for us?  No problem.  Have a seat at the press conference as a fake newsman.

    Unmarried and sexually libertine?  Keep it on the down low?  Work for us?  No problem.  Spew your venom in dime-a-dozen diatribes, now available at Barnes and Noble.

    Intellectual?  You wanna work for us?  Here, have a think tank position.

    Pseudo-intellectual?  You wanna work for us?  Here, have a NYT column.

    Jewish?  You don't actually believe all that social justice crap in the Tanakh, do ya?  Israel is more important to you than mitzvot, right?  Okay.  Have a Pentagon job.

    And so on and so forth.  Hollywood, Catholic, black, asian, latino ... join with me, young Skywalker and I will keep you alive.  Of course, you'll have to help supervise the slaughter of all the Jedi who won't cooperate with the New Order.

    A small postscript.  I once joked with a wiccan in college that "it couldn't happen here," because I'd keep in touch with her and they'd come to get her before they came to get me.  Clinton was President, so it was still funny.  Anyway, I lost touch with her ... and lately, I've been thinking about the experiences of my Sephardic ancestors, and smacking myself in the head.  They can also try Plan B: Go get the Muslims first, and then the Jews.

    So, wanna job?

    •  That's right there in Sinclair Lewis, 1935 (4.00)
      The whole "gradually boiling pot" thing, for one.

      And Lee Sarason, forever making his careful lists, as patient at his desk as he was pleasure-hungry on the couch at midnight parties, was beguiling officials to consider him their real lord and the master of Corpoism. He kept his promises to them, while Windrip always forgot. His office door became the door of ambition. In Washington, the reporters privily spoke of this assistant secretary and that general as "Sarason men." His clique was not a government within a government; it was the government itself, minus the megaphones. He had the Secretary of Corporations (a former vice-president of the American Federation of Labor) coming to him secretly every evening, to report on labor politics and in especial on such proletarian leaders as were dissatisfied with Windrip as Chief--i.e., with their own share in the swag. He had from the Secretary of the Treasury (though this functionary, one Webster Skittle, was not a lieutenant of Sarason but merely friendly) confidential reports on the affairs of those large employers who, since under Corpoism it was usually possible for a millionaire to persuade the judges in the labor-arbitration courts to look at things reasonably, rejoiced that with strikes outlawed and employers regarded as state officials, they would now be in secure power forever.

      Sarason knew the quiet ways in which these reinforced industrial barons used arrests by the M.M.'s to get rid of "trouble-makers," particularly of Jewish radicals--a Jewish radical being a Jew with nobody working for him. (Some of the barons were themselves Jews; it is not to be expected that race-loyalty should be carried so insanely far as to weaken the pocketbook.)

      The allegiance of all such Negroes as had the sense to be content with safety and good pay instead of ridiculous yearnings for personal integrity Sarason got by being photographed shaking hands with the celebrated Negro Fundamentalist clergyman, the Reverend Dr. Alexander Nibbs, and through the highly publicized Sarason Prizes for the Negroes with the largest families, the fastest time in floor-scrubbing, and the longest periods of work without taking a vacation.

      "No danger of our good friends, the Negroes, turning Red when they're encouraged like that," Sarason announced to the newspapers.

      It was a satisfaction to Sarason that in Germany, all military bands were now playing his national song, "Buzz and Buzz" along with the Horst Wessel hymn, for, though he had not exactly written the music as well as the words, the music was now being attributed to him abroad.

      It Can't Happen Here

      One thing which really gets me, as ex-theocon, is the way we who were for civil rights were suckered in back in the 80s by their flacking of black shills like Alan Keyes and Clarence Thomas - see, the liberals aren't really, they're opposing minorities for positions of power, and we're the ones with black candidates!

      But I have since realized that historically, there have always been "colonized minds" and that empires have depended on native satraps and kapos, since the days of Assyria and Egypt...

      Thus the right has Michael Medved and Rabbi Schmuley Boteach and Dr. Laura and Robert Novak who they can count on to come out and soft-shoe at their minstrel shows for them when they need to put some Judeo- in their Judeo-Christian and be more defensive of the Xtian Taliban than any moderate Christian. (I find it very, veeery interesting that both Dr. Laura and Novak have converted to Catholicism - what with all the Reconquista/Inquisition love that goes on among the General Franco-philes...)

      Another thing that is interesting is that he spotted the authoritarianism and bigotry in Coughlin, right off - if you read modern histories, they say that Coughlin only became a real extremist after 1936 when FDR won despite his opposition, that it wasn't until 37-38 that he started being an overt authoritarian and fascist sympathizer. But It can't Happen Here gives the lie to that.

      "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

      by bellatrys on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:54:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Colonized minds" -- this is such an (none)
        interesting concept. First, it reminds me of Franz Fanon's "The Wretched of the Earth." Second, it reminds of master/slave dialectic in Hegel's "Phenomenology of Spirit." And it figures heavily in a lot of Post-Colonial literatures.

        The U.S. government has been taken over by organized crime.

        by lecsmith on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:56:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What I remember most clearly (none)
        about the novel when I read it as a gay teenager was that the facist dictator and his assistant were perverted homosexuals and this was a large part of their evil motivation.
        •  No, that's not quite it (none)
          The dictator has a passive, compliant, Laura Bush-like wife who just stays home and bakes and reads her bible while he plays politics. It's his eminence gris, his Karl Rove analogue who is the closeted, ex-Leftist radical, turned PR flack, who parallels the self-hating Nazi homosexuals with their fascination for militaristic trappings and machismo, which also shows up in their "Protest Warrior" Hitler-Jugend kids, Jesus' General style.

          Given the number of GOP operatives who have turned out to be closeted sorts talking the manly talk (with suspicions of that sort in re Rove himself) it's totally creepy how spot-on in lumping together a fascination for "manliness" defined as being able to kick the shit out of people you don't like, hatred of foreigners and Immigrants, anti-intellectualism being pushed by corrupt scholars and pundits, ex-Leftists turncoats, insecure populace looking for scapegoats, particularly resentful white-trash thugs, "house nigger" and kapo types, prudish society women aggressively attacking feminism, female sufferage, and "Hollywood Values," and media mogul preachers from Peoria leading the mob...

          That, and the main character wondering if they ought to get his family out to Canada, or if it's really going to get that bad--

          It's almost like SL had a time machine.

          "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

          by bellatrys on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:52:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Conservative Jews who vote Republican... (none)
    Have no idea that as soon as the RW Republicans succeed in putting down the gays, feminists and the Muslims the Jews will be next.  Their support and votes are being used to mask their evil agenda

    Think again Republican Leaning Jews, vote Democrat!

  •  I have said many, many times (4.00)
    that Bush and his fundie crowd don't like the Jews nearly as much as they pretend they do.

    A more controversial thought about the unconscious yearnings of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney: letting 9/11 happen is about hating New York City. New York City stands in for everything they hate: yankees, Massachusetts, the Kennedys, the "liberal" northeastern establishment, multiple cultures, races, nationalities, relgions, and the Jews.

    The U.S. government has been taken over by organized crime.

    by lecsmith on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:58:59 AM PDT

  •  Neiwert (none)
    read this blog for more on this subject:

    http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/

    The world will end not with a bang, but with a "Do'oh!"

    by Love and Death on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:04:29 AM PDT

  •  Fascism: Hitler vilified the Jews gradually (4.00)
    I've never read Hitler's Willing Executioners but got the lowdown on how Hitler got Germany to follow along on his plan: he gradually took away this right, gave people time to absorb (rationalize, or "irrationalize", as a friend of mine says) imposed that sanction against Jews, gave people time to absorb, etc.. Many countries maintain myths of victimization alive to foment discontent (Serbia is a great example), and our fascist leaders have learned those lessons well. (Even if it has a point about Japan's historical revisionism, which was imposed by the US after WWII, China is doing a superb job these days of using nationalism to channel its people's discontentment; maybe their goal is a war as a way to trim its population.)

    I've been scared since Bush came to power, and I've referred to the Republicans as fascists ever since. The zeal with which their supporters dismiss every single negative fact, bar none, strikes me as a dangerous collective mental illness. I'm not scared only for Jews, by any means, but I can see the point in the coded message of which these people pride themselves. I don't expect persecution on a massive scale of all non-white, non-Christians, not because I trust the fascists' motives but because of the international outrage that would ensue (morality? pff! it's only the fear of consequences). I do see an implicit encouragement, especially of late, for racists to act out, especially of late.

    In any case, I'll have my bags ready. Let them have their paradise of purity.

    •  Don't (none)
      Leave Hitler's Willing Executioners on the bookstore shelf where it belongs. Goldhagen's passion for his hesis overwhelmed his ability to back it up with facts. It's a screed from start to finish, not an historical treatise.

      A vastly superior book is Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland. I can also recommend his Nazi Policy, Jewish Workers, German Killers, which does a good job of laying out the tensions inherent in Nazi Jewish policy, and shows the gradual steps that led up to the Final Solution. I haven't read his newest book, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942 yet, but if it's on a par with the rest of his oeuvre, it'll be good.

  •  I saw this with Mel Gibson's Passion and the (4.00)
    public reaction to it.

    That film is what pushed me into becoming a proto-activist, first with posts and messages, then with a four-part footnoted manifesto, so that when Abu Ghreib was revealed I was ready to start publically speaking on politics in Blogistan.

    Because I could see the deep anti-Semitism in the film - but worse yet, not just anti-Jewishness, a triumphal Christianity that has no room for any Other in it, one which sets good Us against totally-evil Them - and then there are the weak bystanders, who deserve whatever they get. This ethic, this ethicless ethos, is such a perversion (but a traditional perversion) of the Gospels - and the Law and the Prophets (q.v. "Biblical Liberalism", which kind of goes along with Ptolemy's Torah-exegesis diaries) that nevertheless gets stealthed in and embraced as "faith."

    Because it's easy - who doesn't want to be part of  a Robin-Hood Narrative where there are the few, proud heroes who fight the Evil Overlords and rescue the faceless, unworthy downtrodden peasants from their own weakness?

    But there was this tremendous unwillingness to admit that there was unhistorical, deliberate villainization of the Jews in the film, by Christian triumphalists - and this so quickly turned to defensive anger and blanket sneers and attacks on Jewish-Americans today for being "hypersenstive" and "professional victims" and the "Hollywood values" thing came up, with the "good" violence of The Passion being ignored by those who had the month before ranted about the evil Hollywood values of violence and sex in Kill Bill...

    The hypocrisy was amazing - and the fact that so many people signed on to it, defended Gibson as their own, made it far more of a deal than oh, here's one conservative crank making a movie. Seeing how fast generated, commercialized-religion enthusiasm coudl spread like a wildfire was impressive and scary. And also how it revealed how widespread the "We Christians Are Persecuted Today!" meme has become, how unquestioningly accepted by so many "moderate" Catholics and Protestants even, after decades of conservative pundits hammering home how this must be true, because they say so all the time.

    They never stopped to think what real persecution was like, how many people they knew who'd been beaten to death for wearing a cross, rather than being black or gay or female.

    Then, when Hunter put up almost-word-for-word matches between Bill O'Reilly's Christmas screeds - which were things I'd heard all my life among theocons, in our magazines, how the secularhumanistsatheistfeministfags were trying to destroy Christianity, and one of the ways they were doing this was taking prayer out of schools, and another was taking away our public displays of nativity sets - and Henry Ford's rants from the 20s about "The International Jew", it all became clearer.

    We never realized that when they said "athiests" or "secular humanists" they were really talking, those paleocons like Buchanan and friends, about assimilated Jewish-Americans.

    See, because we weren't anti-semitic, we didn't understand the Code. You can be deep into the conservative movement, and not understand parts of the code, if you come from the wrong background. "Let him who has ears hear" &c - you automatically take it at face value. Just as plenty of people even in Left Blogistan never realized how anti-black much of the conservative stuff was, because if your only personal experience of "welfare cheats" is white guys and their women spending their checks on beer and pot, you will automatically think of them when you hear the demagogues. You won't realize that it's code for black people.

    Or if you grew up in a tough urban area, and you're white, you won't automaticaly think "ooh, scary black people," when you hear "inner city" or "crime" memes. You'll think about your crooked cousins or the neighbors who fenced hot property, instead.

    Same way, only people who already know and are primed to think ill of "The JewsTM" are going to automatically translate (correctly) the coded references embedded in "Hollywood" or "secular culture." The rest of us won't realize that they're not really talking about fallen-away Catholics or weddings-and-funerals Baptists - the people that Regnery's white-dating service and Pat Buchanan approvingly call "ethnic Christians" (and they don't mean Copts or Goanese by that!)

    Thus we get seduced into going along with evil agendas, not realizing it because we rationalize it away for the palatable bits, until it's too late.

    But - cheer up! We all know it can't happen here...

    "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

    by bellatrys on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:43:32 AM PDT

    •  Another scary parallel (none)
      Here's the synopsis of the movie I saw last night:

       "who doesn't want to be part of a Robin-Hood Narrative where there are the few, proud heroes who fight the Evil Overlords and rescue the faceless, unworthy downtrodden peasants from their own weakness?"

      "Passion of the Christ"? Nope, it was "The Incredibles", brought to you by those wonderful folks at Disney. It's a terrifically well-made movie, and it's an apologia for fascism. For the kids.

      As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

      by sidnora on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:47:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Been thinking this (4.00)
    for a few years now. Once Bush used the word "crusade" it occurred to me that each and every time Muslims and Christians have their Jihad/Crusade thing going, Jews get killed.

    I am haunted by the thought that always occurs to people about the Holocaust: why didn't the Jews just leave? Well, at what point do things get bad enough that it becomes time to leave? Will someone 50 years from now wonder why I was so stupid not to leave when I had the chance?

    Many say that the Republicans are nowhere near as bad as the Nazis, and I think there is something to that. But even the Nazis did not start out with the "final solution." THey were more interested in shipping the Jews out of Europe at first and concentration camps were mainly filled with political prisoners. Only when the allies had successfully blockaded Germany's attempts to ship Jews out (their goals was to ship them to Madagascar, if you can believe it!) did they start the full blown final solution.

    Many of the neo-Cons are part of a millenial cult of Christianity and believe that all Jews must move to Israel so the second coming can occur (at which point the Jews have to convert or go to hell). So, there is an unspoken desire among some high-ups in the Bush administration that I move to Israel. And what if I don't want to? In their eyes I am holding up the final days.

    Delenda est Sinclair! http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Sinclair_Broadcast_Group

    by mole333 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:30:38 AM PDT

    •  What irony. (none)
      "Many say that the Republicans are nowhere near as bad as the Nazis, and I think there is something to that."

      Not yet. Of course one reason the Jews didn't just leave Germany is that it's not so easy to tell when it's time. It's easy to see when that was in viewing the Holocaust with 20/20 hindsight, but they were like lobsters in a pot of cold water , with the flame turned on beneath - at what point does that water become too hot to live in?

      Another reason many Jews stayed, ironically, is because they loved their country, just as we love ours. They couldn't believe their beloved country would exterminate them for political gain. And in some places, like Warsaw and Lodz, they stayed and fought. (A great book about the Lodz Ghetto Resistance - "The Avengers" by Ric Cohen)

      And the biggest irony of all? That if things get so bad here that many Jews feel threatened enough to leave, where can we go? And I mean the ones too old, or too poor, to emigrate successfully to places like Canada or New Zealand. The one place we are guaranteed admittance - Israel! Where "they" want us.

      That said, I'm thinking that if it comes near that I'm staying, and buying a gun.

      As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

      by sidnora on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:40:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually (none)
        Many of the Jews did leave. The Nazis' early policies were intended to encourage the Jews to emigrate, and about half of the Jews in Germany did so--even despite the confiscatory fiscal policies that severely limited the amount of goods and money they could take out with them.

        But the Jewish population of Germany (even after the Anschluß with Austria) was minuscule: less than 1 percent, perhaps 300,000-500,000 if I'm remembering the statistics correctly. The Endlösung didn't begin to develop until after the start of the war, when the annexation of the western half of Poland added some 2-3 million Jews to the population of the Reich, and wartime conditions meant that emigration and deportation were impossible.

      •  Actually, that's what Israel is for... (none)
        Remember, Zionism started back in the 1880s when the Czars decided to kick the Jews out of the "pale of settlement."

        The movement was formalized by Theodore Hertzl during the Dreyfus affair, with the philosophy of "if they won't have us, we'll go and start our own country!!!"

        Remember during World War II, the Canadians had a "none is too many" policy on Jewish immigration.

        Remember, lust for oil and old communist propaganda have done much to keep antisemitism alive.

      •  True (none)
        Ironically, there were so many Jews in Germany because Germany had been so welcoming to them compared with the rest of Europe. And many JEws, as you point out, considered themselves more German than Jewish. Some of them had been heros during WW I.

        THere is one difference now than then. The existence of Israel. There is always ONE place we can all go, though it has its own problems. That is one reason why I feel I MUST be pro-Israel...because I feel that Jews need SOMEPLACE to go if everyplace else decides we are to blame for whatever is going on.

        For my wife, she might choose England to go to becasue her father was born in Wales, so she could claim British citizenship. I might lean towards Israel if we had to leave or, giving up the idea of new citizenship, maybe Japan where I have previously lived.

        Staying and buying a gun might be tempting, but I have a baby who I have to think of. My step-daughter has a Republican Christian father, so she'd be okay, I guess. But my son I have to protect. I don't feel that the go out in a blaze of gunfire option is responsible for me.

        Delenda est Sinclair! http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Sinclair_Broadcast_Group

        by mole333 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 09:53:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's the irony. (none)
          Others who responded to my post didn't really understand this - that the irony is that the ONLY place we can be sure we will be welcomed is Israel. For all its many faults, any Jew, self-identified or not, who doesn't support the right of Israel to exist needs to read some history.

          But to think that I'd be forced out of my own country, and end up there doubly because of a bunch of Christian loonies (once because they don't want me here, and again because they believe that my presence there will bring on the Rapture) is the ultimate irony.

          And I must admit that in my wildest paranoid fantasies, I imagine that once they've got us all in that little country - bombs away!

          And as far as going out in a blaze, I understand perfectly. I'm not so young anymore, no kids. And my courage is pretty variable, depending on the day you catch me, too.

          As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

          by sidnora on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:14:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I know what you mean (none)
            Although I am happy that there is at least ONE place in the world that I always will be welcomed, it also seems suspiciously like they want us to all gather in the same place so they can deal with us (convert or die??). And the thing is, given the history of the Jews, it's not that paranoid. We have been blamed for (and killed for) the plague, the invasions of the Mongols, for Communism, for Capitalism and for everything in between. It is hard to be paranoid when people really are out to get you.

            Delenda est Sinclair! http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Sinclair_Broadcast_Group

            by mole333 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:10:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Western vs Muslim anti-Semitism (none)
              It seems strange that in the part of the world where anti-Semitism is currently at its most intense (the Islamic world), anti-Semitism is a relatively recent phenomenon. Much anti-semitic propaganda in the Middle East is of European origin...
              •  Anti-Semitism (none)
                First I should note that te rise in anti-Semitism today is worldwide, not just in the Islamic world. Still, you are right that there is more in the Islamic world.

                This is the result of two things: Zionism and the Nazis. Zionism arose as the Ottoman empire slowly collapsed and the question of what was to be done with Ottoman controlled territory arose. At first nations like Russia, Britain and France wanted to simply take over Ottoman territory, but  nationalist movements made that messy. Among those nationalist movements were, of course, Zionism (based on both existing and immigrant Jewish populations in the area and on an ancient claim to the land) and Palestinians (based on a current population in the area). This put a non-Muslim group in competition with a Muslim group in territory that had been part of a large, long-lived Muslim empire (in fact the last Caliphdom). Muslims resented the assumed "intrusion" by a non-Muslim group into a Muslim area. Right or wrong (and it is partly right and partly wrong) this view stirred up anti-Jewish sentiment throughout the Muslim world.

                At the same time you were getting the rise of Nazism, WW II and the aftermath. The Nazis had been very interested in the Middle East and had courted various Mulsim groups. In general (though not across the board) the Islamic world established ties with Nazi Germany, probably mainly as a balance to the French and British colonial interests rather than because they were pro-Axis per se (a similar situation existed for Finland which was pro-Axis as a way of keeping the Soviets out). Nazi anti-Semetic propoganda was aimed at the Muslim world by Germany and was accepted by the Muslim world that was already angry at the Zionist movement. The combination produced the strong anti-Semitism seen in the Muslim world today.

                I should note that anti-Muslim sentiment among Jews mainly arose in response to the opposition to Zionism (right or wrong) and to the anti-Semitism of the Muslim world.

                Prior to this rivalry over the fate of Israel/Palestine (which had not been an independent nation since ancient (Roman) times and always had rival Palestinian and Jewish populations since even earlier times (end of the Bronze Age)) and the Nazi-Arab affinities (because of Arab resentment over British and French colonialism) the relation between Jews and Muslims was in general cordial to friendly.

                Delenda est Sinclair! http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Sinclair_Broadcast_Group

                by mole333 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:59:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Just finished the da vinci code (none)
    it's a good "pop-cultury" type of read which I found enjoyable and intriguing.  I also found that even before this book came out, the church was trying to use Jesus' life as a way to control it's followers EVEN THOUGH they KNEW it was all a fable intertwined with fantasy and lore it.  It dawned on me that the church, and the greedy bastard repugs who are now using them (just as much as the church is using the repugs) must KNOW it's all bullshit but without it, you just have a story.  They know history is what the writer of it says it is and damn the facts.  They are trying to literally WRITE EVOLUTION OUT OF EXISTENCE by calling it "intelligent design" and anyone against teaching it is considered a god-hating librul (read intellectual jew)

    It's quite disturbing and very scary to say the least but I'm armed and WILL fight against anyone that tries to destroy our Constitution in an effort to take away our rights in America.

    These repugs have gone far enough and they still want more.

  •  THE WORST PART.... (4.00)
    The worst part is that a minority of Jews do not mind if Frist and company are targeting Jews because they are "pro-Israel."  Of course, they aren't pro-Israel at all.  They "support" Israel (i.e. endless war with the Palestinians) because the destruction of Israel will supposedly bring on the Second Coming.
    But the Daniel Pipes, Dennis Prager, neocon idiots, don't care about that.  They have no problem with anti-semitism so long as it emanates from the right. But G-d forbid, if Jesse Jackson says something they don't like.
    I am so glad y'all brought up this issue of Hollywood, etc, being codeword for Jews.  It's not that these wingnuts hate Jews more than other liberals, it's just that we are such a tried-and-true target PLUS we voted 78% for John Kerry (and Gore, and Mondale, and Mc Govern) and will do the same forever.  We don't have many votes but we do give plenty of $$$$ and it's 90% to Dems and lefty causes.  That drives these fascists crazy. Sad for them that we remember the Holocaust.
  •  my last name is Bernstein (4.00)
    once I was asked to change it for business reasons.  In those days I did not consider myself Jewish religiously, but I refused.  

    I have experienced bits and pieces of antisemitism, having been called all kinds of names, or having people assume that because I was jewish i would be the logical person to handle the money ..  I'm sure many here can recount tales similar to or more extreme than any I would offer.  So I will not offer those details.

    My passion for justice for all comes from my Jewish background.  I remember very clearly the command that the Israelites were not to deny justice to the sojourners in their land because they themselves had been sojourners in the land of Egypt.

    I do not disagree with Bob of the increasing acceptability of antisemitism in our society.  But methinks one shold not be surprised in an eivnroment where our government has stoked hatred and fear to the point that far too many Americans are prepared to accept profiling by race, national origin and religion, when a ranking official in intelligence can publicly demean the religion of 1/6 of the human race and yet retain his position, oh there are so many cases i could cite, as could others here.

    My mother's mother and her father fled Bialystok in a Hay wagon in the middle of the night right after a pogrom that they ahd survived because the local cop  -- to whom my baker grandfather had regularly given a free coffee and sweet roll  -- had tipped them off about the pogrom and they had th iron shutters down and hid in the basement.  In the late 1930'w my great grandmother desperately tried to get extended family out of Poland, but to no avail.

    I object to demonization of anyone by group  -- by the way, that includes wingnuts, religious and political.  I worry about rheotrical excesses because I know of far too many cases when they lead to actions that are reprehensible.  I do not wish to have to look back on my life and speak words like those of Martin Niemoller.

    I oppose tyranny.  I oppose oppression.  I oppose the use of rhetoric to demonize people.  

    Am I frightened by what I see happening?  Anyone who regulary reads my diaries and my comments knows that I am.  But I am not willing to flee, neither will I be silenced.  Each death by persecution, each limitation of a person's freedom because of prejudice, diminishes me, a part of me dies or is repressed as well.  

    Scared?  Absolutely.  But even though I do not know if what I say or write or do will have any effect, I will go on with what I believe to be right and true.

    I addressed this one week ago, in my diary The loss of hope, which scrolled by fairly quickly.  NO, this is not a diary pimp, but rather anacknowledgement that the issues Bob has adresssed are very real.

    I recommend your diary, and the commentary that has followed.  

    Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

    by teacherken on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:49:30 AM PDT

  •  Pleas notice that Sen Frist's Jihad (4.00)
    appearance specifically contrasts constitutional law with "faith in Christ"

    Ii expect that the "judeo-christian" fiction will come to an end soon enough - for any of you harboring the illusion that they were only coming for the gays and women.

  •  And dont forget that wiley Jew George Soros (4.00)
    ...whose only crime it seems is that he is secular and survived the Holocaust.

    On FOX, Tony Blankley called Soros "a Jew who figured out a way to survive the Holocaust"

    On Hannity & Colmes on June 3, Washington Times editorial page editor Tony Blankley joined the show's co-host Sean Hannity and other right-wing pundits in attacking financier, philanthropist, and political activist George Soros. Blankley's attacks on Soros included calling Soros a "left-wing crank," "a Jew who figured out a way to survive the Holocaust,""a robber baron," "a pirate capitalist," and "a reckless man." As Media Matters for America reported on June 4, attacking Soros as a means of discrediting Senator John Kerry has become a key strategy of the Republican National Committee.

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200406040004

    But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg.

    by calipygian on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:04:36 AM PDT

  •  The tone of this diary (4.00)
    is best summarized by an exerpt from Tom Lehrer's song "National Brotherhood Week"

    O, the Protestants hate the Cathollics
    And the Catholics hate the Protestants
    The Hindus hate the Moslems
    AND EVERYBODY HATES THE JEWS

    (Snark off)

    ownership society - you are on your own

    by Sam I Am on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:06:58 AM PDT

  •  And of course the worst crime (3.50)
    in the Republican playbook is apostasy.  Thats why Jeffords is a pariah.  That's why George Soros is so savagely attacked - a Jew who happens to think that Israel is oppressing Palestinians.  And we all know what the penalty that right-wing types mete out for apostasy.  Witness the fate of Yitzhak Rabin, who defied the Israeli right.  When is the right-wing violence in this country going to ratchet up?  

    But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg.

    by calipygian on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:09:11 AM PDT

  •  I think I should write neocons and ask... (4.00)
    Dear Mr Perle,
    Dear Mr Wolfowitz,
    Dear Mr Feith,
    Dear Mr Wurmser,

    As I sit here listening to the tribulations of people of faith being unmasked by brave Mr Frist, I'm wondering what you think.  

    I'm sure you're people of faith, too, and have suffered terribly at the hands of anti-God judges like Justice Ginsberg and Justice Breyer.  

    Do you want them impeached for not always doing things Mr Frist and Mr DeLay like?

    Do you always like what Mr Frist and Mr DeLay like, or are you sometimes on the side of the anti-God people?  

    I'm going over lists of judges to impeach and I'd like your input.  Thank you.  And remember, like the song says, Tomorrow Belongs to Me!

    P.S.  Too bad it's too late to impeach Justice Brandeis, Justice Cardozo, Justice Frankfurter, Justice Goldberg, and Justice Fortas, but I'm thinking we can just take their names out of all the books so the stain of the anti-God isn't everywhere children of faith look.  And also out of law books so their anti-God influence doesn't continue to pollute the law -- though obviously, the law needs to be changed so that it's of faith, too.

    "The key to security is public information." -- Margaret Chase Smith

    by Drawn4Quarters on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:12:46 AM PDT

  •  the only problem with this hypothesis (none)
    is the bush-likud aliance.

    personally, i don't think bush or cheney or any neocon believes in god. i believe they are in it for the money and the power, and for light-skinnedness.

  •  But didn't the good book... (none)
    ...tell of the time when Joe Lieberman would defeat our enemies and lead the Jews back to the promised land?  Oh, excuse me, I'm thinking of the nightmare I had last night.  

    Be the creature. (But not a Republican.)

    by boran2 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:35:08 AM PDT

  •  Hi (none)
    And here I thought that the Jews were just the real enemy for the people on "Justice Sunday".

    "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, who am I? And if not now, when?" (Hillel was a liberal)

    by 4jkb4ia on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:39:06 AM PDT

  •  A Good Read (none)
    Just reading this thread.  It is good to hear people who are seeing a reality unfolding, that is beyond the camouflaged rhetoric used by our government.  I am fatalistic about the growing fascism.  Have felt the rabbit like need to flee, but am currently trying to stay motionless to avoid the fangs of the beast.

    For those of you who haven't, you might get a copy of "Resistance" by Barry Lopez.  It is a subtle, artistic book.  Fiction.  But by the end of it, it summed up the dread I feel living in a country with a "Department of Homeland Security."

    If you liked this thread, and "Resistance," you might also consider "Direct Actions" which will be released this fall.  My first novel.  A shameless promo, I know.  But the heart of it is the fear and loathing I read in this post.  The horror of watching your country slip slowly down a path to the nether world.

  •  No Fear (4.00)
    Thanks to the diarist for starting this discussion.

    I appreciate the sentiment in this post, and in reading the comment thread about Bob's encounter with woman who becomes a slobbering anti-Semite after the third round of drinks, I can see how this diary has a very personal foundation to it.

    The first encounter one has with anti-Semitism--or any form of pronounced hate, really--can be very disconcerting.  Or even if it's not the first encounter, the time one sees something so ugly in another person--it can be very frightening.

    What we are witnessing is a rise in Christianity in the American public sphere.  This means that we are also going to see the rise of Christian ideas in places that have for years not been dominated by them.  One aspect of that change is the increasing visibility of Christian ideas about Jews, which includes such ridiculous theories as the Jews needing to occupy Jersualem in order for the Messiah to come, the Jews all needing to convert to Christianity in order for redemption to happen, or the Jews controlling the world by making all the movies.  

    Fear is not the answer to this change.  The answer is to take back the public sphere.  First, get angry, then calm down, then get to work.

    The rise of Christian ideas about Jews has only a distant connection with those aspects of German politics that led to the death of Jews.  The path that led to Nazism was a dangerous mix of scientific racism, nationalism, and ideologies of social reform.  Christianity, if anything, stood by and let it happen.  Nazism began by rejecting religion and embracing science.  

    So, what is the dangerous mix we are experiencing today and which group of Americans are in immediate danger?

    Well, it seems that nationalism and ideologies of social reform are mixing with anti-scientific Biblical literalism.  The people who have been killed by this "mix" so far--literally murdered; no metaphor here--are women seeking abortions and doctors who perform abortions.  If we raise the alarm for anyone, it should be for women seeking medical care and those people who are connected with the medical fields that care for women.  

    When a politician who is supported by groups that advocate and have succeeded at murdering women and doctors--it is women and doctors whose lives are most threatened.  

    The next group is homosexuals.  The "mix" of nationalism, social reform and Biblical literalism has also empowered groups in America who hunt down and murder homosexual men and women.  Depending on where we live in the country, we may see these packs of men roaming our city streets at night.  If you've never been in a public square and had someone threaten your life because you "look like a fag," you are lucky.  Ten years ago these gangs were few and far between.  Now, their numbers are swelling and their threat to America is rising.  Again, these groups support and helped to elect the people who currently control our government.

    Has there been a rise in anti-Jewish violence in our country?  No.  People with odd ideas about Jews suddenly feel confident to express them in public  again, true.  But the rising danger is against women, doctors and homosexuals.  

    Let's not be afraid.  Let's stand up and fight for them and with them.  

    One last thing:  if anyone encounters someone who expresses anti-Semitism in the crude form that  Bob describes, here's a good response:

    "So, you think Jewish people are to blame for the world's problems.  I had no idea you were such a crass and ignorant bigot. But now that I do know, this evening is over."

    And then you get up and walk away.  You'll feel bad at first.  But when you get that first grateful phone call from a friend who watched it happen, you'll feel better real fast.

    Again, thanks to the diarist for initiating this discussion.

    •  political religion (4.00)
       "Christianity, if anything, stood by and let it happen.  Nazism began by rejecting religion and embracing science."

      One disagreement here:  Scalia made this point too, and it is not entirely correct, at least from a philosophical point of view.  Nazism, much like Stalinism, was a political religion, infused with a very Christian like messianic structure.  Substitute communist utopia or thousand year reich for the End Times and much of the language transfers over easily.  What conditions people to put their faith in one leader who can redeem all past problems, who promises salvation on one condition, that one not question, not differ, not disagree but put one's individuality aside and pitch in for the common effort?  Well, faith itself.  As with any faith, it was not whether you actually agreed with the text of Mein Kampf or Das Kapital, it was the acceptance and the head-over-heels dedication to that text that was the payoff.  Like Kierkegaard's Leap of Faith.  Same thing with the Bible.  Right?  Wrong?  Who cares, it is the acceptance of it that key, not the determination of its truth or untruth.   In this, all political ideologies are versions of religious fundamentalism.  Isamic vs Jewish vs Christian vs fascism vs communism...its all one big family dispute.   Ruined are those of us who ask the questions, and pay dearly for our individualism.

      It is time to think about a liberal-libertarian reallignment seriously.  THey are our only natual allies.

      •  Interesting point (none)
        Historicallly, up to the 1930s, Christianity had a deep need for Jews.  Their issue was hierarchy.  

        But if you take the perspective of religion as a general system, absolutely: I agree with your point.

        The French anthropologist Luois Dumont talks about fascism and Christianity in the terms you laid out--as the emergence of a system of values based on the elimination of all individuals except one.  In his view, "conversion" is a process of giving oneself up to the individual.    It's a very interesting idea.

    •  "Nazism began by .... embracing science" (none)
      Yes, Nazism embraced the authority of science, but the Nazis rejected its methods and much of its substance. For example, they rejected relativity as "Jewish science" and declared their ideas about race to be scientific. A bit like another totalitarian movement based on "scientific socialism".

      Although the authority of science is being rejected today, the underlying rejection of its substance is similar.

      (Of course "authority" misconstrues the reasons for respecting science, but that is another story.)

      Republican conservatives are now boiled frogs.

      by technopolitical on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:04:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This "Liberul" has guns (4.00)
    Lots of fucking guns, and a military background too.

    I defending my country as a yuong man, and i am STILL a youngman.

    These folks don't scare me, they don't intimidate me, they have gone to far and too many people are standing up and saying ENOUGH ALREADY you fascist fucks.

    BUT we can only take them down when we stand together, fight together. When they come for the jews, the athiests, the christians, the gays, the peaceniks, the moderates and all the rest of our coalition we all stand up and say, back the fuck off.

    So let these crazy motherfuckers bring it on, with all their theocratic notions and wet dreams of oligarchy, lets see them continue to step out of the shadows and into the light, they know not what they do, nor what has been waiting for them.

    the american people and our constituion that's what is waiting for them and it will tear them the fuck up.

    Let the Democratic Reformation Begin

    by Pounder on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 06:59:21 AM PDT

    •  It all comes down to numbers (none)
      Are there enough "libs" with the guts to stand firm in the face of this onslaught?  If we show the kind of backbone Pounder has, in large numbers (which are there), many others will be inspired to stand up to the insanity too.
      •  I have been saying this for sometime now. (none)
        I just keep hearing reteric.  I want action now for soon it will be too damn late for action.

        What I think is of no consequence here.  It is what I do that has consequence.  

        When will we start this revolution?  Where will the start begin?  What have I got to do to get with the program to help out?  

        So may questions and not enough orginizations to form and get the job done.

        Sadly, Europe has done that very thing with their govenments...ie spain, etc

        I hope that we too will soon join them in turing the tides of fasism to permenantly do away with them forever and ever.

        Mr. Johnson, I too ahve been guilty of blaming the other side for fasism, ie the Jewish nation, of sorts...for I see the liks of woffie and pearle and their likes who are definately of the Jewish faith and they just go on tearing down the progress of that nation and ours too.  This has got to come to a stopping point somewhere.  

        Can anyone tell me where we start and what I can do to do my little bit in thsi revolution?
        PLEASE, tell me what to do...I am at a loss of what to do?  I have done all the phone calling writing emails, letters, talking to ppl out in my community.  What else can I do?

        I have really felt so very badly for going on 5 years now, that I am at a point of no return.  I want to see more than reteric, I want to see action.  I want to see change.  What else can I as one human do mroe than I have already have..I want to do it!!!  I h ave no more imigination on thsi thing.

        •  Not revolution (none)
          At best, deterrence.

          Republican conservatives are now boiled frogs.

          by technopolitical on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 01:06:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I hear ya (none)
          A few ideas:

          There are power in numbers, let us gather on these blogging sites like kos in ever greater numbers and make our voices heard.  Post like crazy to show we're out there and we intend to participate.  Read what's here to learn and improve your political skills.  I've learned an incredible amount in the few months I've been reading kos, and I thought I knew stuff before I landed here!

          Get busy taking back the democratic party.  It's about the only practical political action available.  

          Practice patience.  It's frustrating, I know, but perserverance furthers!

  •  Yeah (none)
    I've noticed that they have tried to tie Jews to the filibuster thing, with Schumer's name tied in.  There are definite code- words used (and sometimes blatant anti- semitism, such as Bill Donahue).

    "You have the power to take back the Democratic Party."- Gov. Howard Dean- DNC Chair

    by maxgray7 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:04:27 AM PDT

  •  I grew up in segregation times (4.00)
    and I heard about Blacks, Jews, Hispanics, Women, Catholics, Asians, Native Americans, and who'd I leave out? In all cases NONE of the proper nouns above were used. Fill in the blanks. Time for everybody to get very real here--it's all the same thing. Bob wrote the original diary as a direct witness to one part of the whole mess. I too am scared, I've watched the whole incremental staged growth of fascist innuendo pass the first stage. Now the code words are beginning to slip out regardless of the group. Emboldened by their "wins" the reactionaries subconsciously feel empowered ('we got balls') and the move is on to return the country to "where it should be." Many are scarcely aware of the creeping nature of the whole thing, and how they will slowly be co-opted.

    Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain

    by Rolfyboy6 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:11:11 AM PDT

  •  Lieberman and The Jews (none)
    BJ Joe has got to be an embarrassment to most Jewish people.

    To me, as a Catholic with many friends of all kinds, BJ Joe impresses me as the same as Black or Hispanic republicans.  Sort of a token.

    BJ Joe gets so much of his support from the right wing, is so much in their good graces and spouts their lingo like a fellow wingnut that he is all but one of them.  Joe knows what side of the fence he's on.

    But BJ Joe also knows he's from Connecticut, where most Jewish people are Democrats.  Getting elected required him to look and speak, in public, like a Democrat.  Once in, however, he went right for his soulmates on the other side.

    Joe lost a run for Congress in 1980, when he ran as a rather liberal Democrat.  He lost to someone who ran a bit to right of him.  Just like George Wallace found out when he lost his first run for governor of Alabama, Joe had to swing to the right to win statewide.

    So now you have probably the most infamous Jewish pol nothing more than a token for the right and an embarrassment for his fellow Jews.  A person who does more to hurt his people than help, yet dare walk around in public and act pious.

    However, I've yet to see any Jewish group go after him.  Instead, a great deal of his fundraising money comes from Jewish and pro-Israel groups.  Think it's about time someone take him on and call  him out for the pious phony he really is.

    •  Just want to make sure I've understood (none)
      I understand you to be saying that Jews, rather than taking down Lieberman as you think they should,  are supporting him--because they are Jews; a problem that we should be confronting is that Lieberman keeps getting re-elected because Jewish money makes it possible.  

      More than that, you are suggesting that before we can take down Lieberman (the most infamous Jewish politician), we  need to deal with this issue of Jews not being able to see Lieberman as he really is in your estimation--as an embarassment to Jews.  To you as a Catholic this is obvious, but for some reason Jewish people are unable to come to this conclusion, apparently because their loyalty to another Jew has blinded them to it.

      Did I get that right?

  •  Ditto & then some (none)
    I can no longer abide those who think this administration's rampage is just "politics as usual"  Not only because it's a tawdy reassurance, at best, but because it's an exucse not to pay attention.

    Several things increase the danger of this situation:
    1)in the 30's, there was a lot of organized opposition on the left-- unions were strong (after 30 or 40 years of intense union=busting, that voice is greatly muted by comparison)-- there was an active international left (the threat of communism/socialism, however illusory, was one of the factors that allowed FDR to push Social Security legislation thorugh in the 1st place, right?  "Do this, at least, or who knows how much you'll risk?")

    1. were the school systems as depleted? An open question
    2. the media was various, positively diverse by comparison

    Now I'm about to express a personal observation, iffy,  not scientific, but still FWIW, I think 40odd years of watching TV 3 or 4 hours a day, from early childhood on, has worked systemic (biological) chances in the nervous system, affecting the american attention span.  Call it a sort of darwinian adaptation.  People are conditioned to commercial breaks, for instance, in any narrative, to rapid visual shocks, and so on.  I think this is where multi=tasking comes from.  Also, the constant intense need for novelty & the (wierd) lack of memory, sustained continuity.  All Terry Schiavo oneweek.  Popalooza, the next. Scott who? There's an upside & a downside to all this, of course.  Big changes always come with both privileges and penalties.  But one thing we have all noticed for sure is the strange distract-ability, also somnolence, of the public.

    Anyway, like I said, fwiw.

    On the brighter side of course.  There's the net.  Man, how rapidly, almost instantaneously, kossacks decoded the photoshopped poster for Frist's Justice Sunday. How quickly Lakoff & others began to mobilize.  So that, as a result, an event that was meant to stay more or less within the base jumped into the mainstream.  

    That's a big deal. And hopeful.

    As far as the ravages of anti=semitism go, I've noticed the same things you have. The biggest danger, imo, comes from the fact that Israel has equated, falsely & successfully, any opposition to their policies with anti=semitism-- so that those who are natural adversaries to anti-semites are also probably the same people who are appalled by the way the Israeli military has behaved & are therefore less likely to rally or recognize or even care about this unclear but very present danger.  A new wrinkle in an old fabric.

    Great diary, thanks Bob J.

    •  Now and the 1930s. (none)
      The media wasn't as diverse.

      Sure there were plenty of newspapers, but many of them were controlled by the Republican media magnates like Hearst. FDR was elected DESPITE the media.

      Also, remember, schools had corperal punishment back then and you had truant officers looking to drag kids to school. Also, there weren't many technological aids like you have now. [times tables anyone?]

      The Unions didn't have all that much power until the Roosevelt adminstration took power. The 1921-33 Republican regime was completely anti-union and used police to suppress them.

      Nobody took the Communist/Socialist threat seriously between the Palmer raids and the end of WWII. Remember the Communist Candidate for president WON in 1936 [they nominated FDR, you can look it up].

      The problem for the left is it's domestic antiamericanism.

      The "you're the evil enemy, I hate you, vote for me" argument has never worked, which is why the far left will never win.

      •  wrong (none)
        Yes, the Hearst org existed.  However, NYC in those days had 8 daily newspapers, for example.  And no company owned or held majority interests in book publishing, movies, radio, magazines, newspapers as several do today.

        corporal punishment? you're kidding.

        union membership and public awaareness of issues addressed by unions were significantly greater.

        Nobody took the communist threat seriously?  The russian revolution & the Bolshevik coup d'etat was no further away from the 30's than the Reagan presidency is from Bush.

        As for the so-=called anti=americanism of the progressive, and liberal left, that is a tired trashy canard which is both false and insulting.

        iow, your thinking is just like your name. Good choice.

  •  Salami Tactic (4.00)
    Just finished reading dkos author Tom Schilke'sbookGrowing Up Red, which discussed Fascism.  This is a paragraph that I think is appropriate.


    In a fascist state, the corporate-controlled and sometimes government-controlled media controls the flow of information. There is an overwhelming sense of "at all costs" patriotism which can morph into all out nationalism. This love of nation can include excessive public display of images of a nation's leader.  The love it or leave it mentality increases among the media and supporters of the leadership. A single unifying enemy is chosen, and all focus is put on that enemy, usually with racist motivations. At the same time academics,journalists and other thinkers are vilified, in favor of encouraging blind support for whateve ill-conceived notions come through a media mostly dominated by government or corporate sponsored propaganda. We fought against six countries(Germany, Italy, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria) which practiced some for of Fascism during World War II.

    Using the above description as evidence, I believe our nation is nearing the jump off point between Democracy and Fascism. Attempting to prove a broad statement is difficult.  All the symptoms are present if we take the time to try to notice them and piece them together into a logical conclusion. The Nazis used what they called "Salami Tactic" to implement Fascism, which was used to minimize dissent and influence the citizens' thinking.  The principle behind the Salami Tactic is to take civil rights and freedoms away in such thinly sliced pieces, that most people do not notice them slipping away. By the time the salami is completely gone, people will not will not realize anything has changed at all, when in fact nearly everything is different.

    Thoughts from Connecticut - Recommended Reading - Growing Up Red

    by ctsteve on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 07:45:50 AM PDT

  •  the only ingredient you need to add to get hitler (none)
    is inflation with unemployment (okay that's two)
    •  You also forgot reparations. (none)
      The treaty of Versilles, which gave Germany a crushing debt, was a major problem, that and a poorly run parlimentery democracy and a bunch of morons who thought that Hitler was a hypocrite who didn't believe in what he was saying and thus could be controlled.

      You also forget that nowadays it's not the right who's blaming the Jews for the war, it's the left.

      "neocon" is the lefties' code-word for Jew.

      •  Getting deep... (none)
        You also forget that nowadays it's not the right who's blaming the Jews for the war, it's the left. "neocon" is the lefties' code-word for Jew.

        If you'd like to prove this statement, feel free. Otherwise, it's just more RW bullshit.  

        --Bush lied, 1000 died

        by indyjones48 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:41:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  it's not bullshit. code words are on the left too (none)
          It's not RW bullshit.  Last year in Canada, an article was published listing all the Jewish neocons in the Bush administration.  When you hear neocon, you don't think Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.  You think Wolfowitz, Perle and Feith.  Some on the left have adopted this term as a code for talking about Jews with too much power and/or Jews who they feel have more allegiance to Israel than the USA.
          •  Like I said... (none)
            You think Wolfowitz, Perle and Feith.  Some on the left have adopted this term as a code for talking about Jews with too much power and/or Jews who they feel have more allegiance to Israel than the USA.

            So, it should be easy then, to point to a reference where the left has started using this term to mean Jew.  Provide a reference and try to prove it...

            I'm not denying that Wolfie, Perle and Feith are Jewish; but so are George Soros, John Stewart, and my next door neighbor...hardly neocons.

            But I think your point is that because these 3 people all happen to be Jewish and people call them neocons, neocons must be code word for Jewish?  That sounds like some pretty faulty reasoning to me.  That makes about as much sense as if I were to say that everytime people said pedophile, they really meant Catholic Priest.

            --Bush lied, 1000 died

            by indyjones48 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:42:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  as I wrote (none)
              As I wrote:

              Last year in Canada, an article was published listing all the Jewish neocons in the Bush administration.  

              This started a whole debate on Dailykos and on Salon.com whether neocon meant "Jewish" -- at best, the discussion was inconclusive.  

              Again, I ask why Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld are not called neocons and Wolfowitz, Perle and Feith are.

  •  No. (none)
    I saw a previous diary on this, and was really surprised where the "anti-semitism" angle came from.

    Now, there is anti-semitism, and I'm sorry that you were exposed (as you said in one of your comments) to someone who expressed anti-semitic views.

    But identifying the "liberal media" and "hollywood" as codewords for "Jews" is far-fetched. It has been pointed out to me that the link was made at some points in time, but I really don't see any immediate link here.

    You can draw parallels with other historic events, but I think they mainly lie in the common mechanism of finding a segment of society, and branding them as elitist/evil/lazy/etc to further your agenda. The Jews have been the victim of this several times, but that doesn't mean that what the right-wing is doing comes down to anti-semitism.

    A lot of mass movements seem to use the image of an enemy to rally their supporters, and to paint themselves as being the suppressed underdog. In this case, it's the "liberal elitists". I really don't think it's the Jews.

    •  Those Code Words are real (none)
      What do you think a good number of people generally invision when the phrase "welfare mama" is used?

      Here's a little piece I found from a former writer/editor for Esquire....

      "Liberal Media" as Code Language for Jewish-Owned Media
      As long as I'm here, let me share a sense I have long had that many Americans use the phrase "liberal media" as code language referring to the old paranoid idea (long since discredited) that Jews own media as part of a worldwide conspiracy to control media, banking and government. This belief was held by Timothy McVeigh as he embraced "The Turner Diaries" which conceived of the federal government as "ZOG" (Zionist Occupational Government). This belief is common among militant militias, the "patriot movement," the Freemen, and the Christian Identity movement. It is repeated in code language ("media elite") by Pat Buchanan, Oliver North, Newt Gingrich, Pat Robertson, Steve Forbes (who also implies Jews run the "demonic IRS"--"we'll drive a stake through its evil heart" and kill it!")--all conservatives. They respond by saying they "support Israel." This is disingenuous. The only reason Pat Robertson, for example, supports Israel is that he and his followers believe that all Jews must return to Israel before Armegeddon, the Rapture and the Second Coming (not sure of sequence) can commence, a process they believe Jews will not survive.

      On several occasions, I've questioned people deeply about what they mean by "liberal media" and have been told, "Well, you know, those Jews who own the media." This may be where the myth of "liberal media" got started on that golfcourse. The core of anti-Semitic belief in the minds of many Americans who use the term "liberal media" is profoundly disturbing. Frankly, I think this has more to do with the use of the phrase "liberal media" than any other explanation.

      "Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other." - JFK

      by jillian on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:18:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with Frank (none)
      Until this post, I had not thought that the phrase "Liberal Media" was a code word for Jews.  My impression was that it was directed at the well educated deep blue. Think of GW's venom during the debates when he said "Massachusetts Liberal".

      Its college educated people that don't bowl that are the target.  And I don't think the answer is running.  After the Iraq invasion no one would have us anyway.  The answer is to become very loud, and to have each others back, which we are doing...and will continue doing.

      Born right the first time

      by DreamOfPeace on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:37:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Professor of German and Jewish History (4.00)
    here.  And a Jew.  I have two things to say to your comment:

    One, you are kind of overreacting.  There simply is not ever going to be a situation in this country analagous to the 1930s and 1940s in Europe in regards to Jews.

    Two, History never repeats itself, but that is partially because as Walter Benjamin said "the angel of history moves forward looking backwards" or as Hegel said "the owl of Minerva only flies at dusk"  i.e. wisdom usually only comes when it is too late to do any good.  What I mean is that anti Semitism comes in different forms, and the rise of Christian Right will introduce a kind of anti-Semitism in a form different than the Nazis brand, or the Inquisition's brand, and this will be what allows it to rise, the ability of Christian Rightists to refute historical allusions like the one you make in your post.  It develops slowly, like erosion, slow enough that you can't see it directly.  To try to understand the evolving anti-liberal/anti-semitic matrix you absolutely should not use the lens of Germany; remember that one reason so many Jews and some Germans had no idea of what was to come was that they understood Hitler's anti-semitism as another chapter in the long history of Church anti-semitism dating back to the middle ages, when in fact it was something far different.  A few pogroms, they thought, then the mob will die down, the "good Germans" will step in again, we'll be able to buy our way out of trouble, this too will pass etc.  This obsession with understanding the present anti-semitism through the lens of past anti-semitism was fatal for millions of them.

    Don't forget that in Germany, for most Germans who were not fanatical Nazis but supported the NSDAP nonetheless, the anti-Semitism was attractive as an abstract concept.  Gaudy department stores, Jazz, liberal social concepts, socialism, modern architecture, strange theories of science like "relativity"--all these components of a modernity they could not understand seemed to form this nebulous threat, and because youo could insert Jewish names into all the fields named above, the racial exterminationist anti-Semitism of the Nazis seemed just radical enough to "set things right again" to all those who felt left out of the brave new world of capitalist-socialist-secular modernity.

    But each one of these Germans had no personal animosity towards the Jewish people that they knew.  Each one, as Himmler noted to his frustration, had their "good Jew."  Most did not think that an entire gene pool needed to be eliminated; it was the "nefarious influence" that needed to be curbed, lest that "good old German way" (lederhosen, bier steins, oom pah pah bands etc.) was to be lost in a flood of modernity.

    THIS is the connection you need to make.  Hollywood, academia, the media, finance, the arts, the law...Jews heavily overrepresented.  Agriculture, construction, military, sports, industry...Jews all underrepresented.   Why?  Because Jews value academic success, as a virtue of the rabbinical tradition, and because Jews historically were left out of farming, the military and guild-based industry as a condition of their exclusion in early modern and medieval times.  So because of these two things they gravitated to industries that were new, or required nothing but a good mind, centered in cities, divorced from traditional mainstream culture.  

    When modern capitalism came about, they were well positioned to suddenly profit greatly from their previous exclusion.  

    Same thing now.  Jews are excluded from agriculture and small business and industry and the military, and the new and global economy they are part of represents a hyper-modernity that threatens the traditional communities that grow up around these socio-economic areas.  THey are well positioned to profit from the new economy, wheras small businessmen and farmers are not.  They are also doomed to be on the side of change and progress and positioned against tradition.

    THe attacks on Hollywood, the MSM, academia are more attacks on change and progress and on modernity than they are code for attacks on Judaism.  No one can foresee how the two migh come to grow closer to each other.  The more the Christian Right begins to notice and advertise that Jews are overrepresented in the "elite" and play this to their base the more the danger will grow, but it won't take the form of ghettos and death camps.  It may begin to take the form of broken glass, but most likely it will take a more nebulous form, of social ostracization, overt attempts towards conversion, punctuated with random small outbursts of lone-wolf style violence against Jews, which will always mee tthe response from the mainstream right of the COrnyn-Terry style covert justification.

    •  The code words are for Christians... (4.00)
      ...and are the worst form of dog whistle politics. As I'm a former missionary, I certainly hear it. And I fear that you may be underreacting.

      Do you have any colleagues who study evangelicals and rightwing Christians? I'd be very curious as to their take.

    •  Certainty (none)
      One, you are kind of overreacting.  There simply is not ever going to be a situation in this country analagous to the 1930s and 1940s in Europe in regards to Jews.

      Two, History never repeats itself,

      I do not, not understand how you can state either of these things with such certainty. You don't even really provide any basis for these assertions - but in any case, European Jewry never believed that the Holocaust could happen there, either. They were obviously wrong.

    •  It acutally seems closer to... (none)
      the Inquisition's brand of anti-Semitism.  They are just fine with conversos and those Jews who will follow along with the program.  And it is far more motivated by religious hatred than by racial hatred.  And look at the far worse treatment of American Muslims.  It isn't a race war, it is a holy war, and everyone familiar with the Crusades or Europe between 1618-48 knows how confusing and bloody those are.
      •  Good analogy! (none)

        The Spanish Inquisition was fine with conversos (converted Jews), but the moriscos (converted Muslims) were all eventually expelled or exterminated.

        Some religions are more powerful than others. Abrahamic religions are usually stronger than non-Abrahamic faiths - Christianity destroyed paganism in Europe, Islam destroyed Zoroastrianism in Iran, and South Korea, almost entirely Buddhist a century ago, is now majority Christian. Hinduism is unusual in that it survived the Islamic onslaught (though it did lose insular SE Asia to Islam).

        Islam is especially hated by Christian bigots because Muslims are so resistant to conversion, even by otherwise-powerful Christianity (anyone got any ideas why - is it because it is the most absolute in its monotheism?). When I look at the history of Islamic civilization I see not one 'rollback' of Islamic territory which did not involved massive ethnic cleansing.

  •  No Code Words, No More (none)
    William Donahue, president of the Catholic League, let the covert bigotry out of the bag last December on Scarborough Country. MSNBC had no problem with it. Donahue later appeared on an MSNBC news program as a commentator.

    If you don't like MSNBC's tacit approval of Donahue, email David Verdi, MSNBC executive news producer, at david.verdi@nbc.com.

    Subvert the dominant paradigm--play accordion.

    by millennialpaine on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:19:14 AM PDT

    •  What do you mean by "covert", Kimosabee? (none)
      The Catholic League is the modern American equivelent of the Spanish Inquisition. Always has been.

      Until the pedophillia crisis became public, they were enforcers of Catholic orthodoxy for the entertainment industry.

      Google: "What If God Was One of Us?: Catholic League" if you want to know what they did before then. They attacked movies, songs and books on relgious grounds.

      They inadvertently came out in favor of Slavery a couple of years back (google 'The Magdelene Sisters: Catholic League), and that was really funny.

      They're a bunch of nutcases. The problem is that it looks like Razinger's going to be elected pope this week.

  •  How About the Jews on Wall Street? (none)
    Are they getting honorary Christian soldier status for facilitating the nazi-esque takeover of American government by the fundy nutcakes like Frist?

    How about the Israel, wrong or wrong Jews? The ones who don't care what your opinion on any matter is if they perceive you want to hear the Palestian side of the argument as well?

    Seems to me a great many Jews have already signed on to the right wing juggernaut, despite the obvious fact that in the end-game, aka the rapture, they are going to get burned.

    Any alliance between American Jews and the antisecularist fundy nuts led by Bush and Frist scared the HELL out of me.

    We the undersigned urge you to support Federal funding for research using human pluripotent stem cells. -80 Nobel Laureates to Pres. Bush

    by easong on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:29:16 AM PDT

    •  You don't live here, do you? (none)
      Or your radio is tuned to the militia again.
      There are plenty of Jews on wall street, acting as traders and bankers.  There are even quite a few wealthy ones.  But the overwhelming number of us, even the wealthy ones, are working against the Bush crew.  And the corpo-croc board sinecures still go to the white shoe goys as much as they ever did ... those jobs are for good old boys, silly.
      A hell of a lot of those Nobel laureates you quote are from the tribe.
      And the majority of American Jews oppose the occupation of the West Bank.
      A majority of American Jews want a Palestinian state.  I suspect you'll find more of your Jewish neighbors to be more reasonable now that there's new management at the Palestinian Authority.
      Even the Israeli Jews are lukewarm at best to Sharon ... and if that seems ridiculous, think of the 49% of Americans who hate Bush ... and we've only been attacked once on our soil during his presidency.
      If every religion voted as reliably against the theocons as the Jews do, then Howard Dean would be president.
      •  then how do you explain (none)

        Wolfowitz and Perle?
        •  Or (none)
          Mel Gibson?

          --Bush lied, 1000 died

          by indyjones48 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:45:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry, not clear... (none)
            Just meant to comment that you can't necessarily call two people representative of their community: religious or otherwise.  

            Mel Gibson = Catholic, Catholics != Mel Gibson.

            --Bush lied, 1000 died

            by indyjones48 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:51:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  We're not all fucking clones! (none)
          God damn it.
          We don't all think the same.
          We don't all act the same.
          We don't get secret missives from some central organization -- not that you were explicitly saying (or consciously thinking) such a thing.  
          And we don't all take the same message from our shared heritage, or even bother to refer to said heritage at all.  *
          Just like every-fucking-body else.

          And I was going to go on more rationally,  but if you really don't see the problem with blaming ALL jews (or was it all judaism? Or just most?) for the actions of one -- or two, or ten -- especially since it's fairly easy to find  Jews who hold opposing viewpoints to Wolfowitz & Perle... (Here, I'm one. I don't think Ptolomy will mind me claiming him as another. There you go, two neocon republican jews, two liberal/progressive (what's the label today?) democratic jews.  Damn, two of "them", two of "us". All jews. Now what do you do? How about if it turns out more jews agree with "us" than "them"?)

          I'm aware I'm ranting. I'm reading into your very brief comment a context that I hope to hell you're truly not aware of.  But that's the context (for which, see above diary and the rest of the comments).  And if you really want to understand Wolfowitz & Perle, I bet you can find biographical sketches around. Look at the people they studied with, the people they've worked with. Oh, wait, the jewish part? Right, you could learn about that too. Judaism, various interpretations of Jewish texts, Jewish history (which does go beyond Exodus...not-Jesus...yada yada yada...Hitler...Israel...), maybe even the history of anti-semitism -- I don't know that it'll help you understand Wolfowitz & Perle any, but I bet it'll help you understand why I'm foaming at the fingers here.

          * (And as Americans, as westerners, as college graduates or whatever other sub-categorization of Human Being might apply -- each of us has multiple threads of heritage which have shaped us. We Jews aren't just "Jew." Which is sort of the point of this whole fucking thread.)

  •  George Soros on Bush (4.00)
    "An open society is a society which allows its members the greatest possible degree of freedom in pursuing their interests compatible with the interests of others," Soros said. "The Bush administration merely has a narrower definition of self-interest. It does not include the interests of others."
  •  Jews are taking it from the Left, too (none)
    Many excellent points raised by this diary and the subsequent comments.  Btw, Marty Kaplan addressed this yesterday on his Air America Radio show, "So What Else is News?"  It seems James Dobson (Focus on the Family) is kicking off some major speech on the first night of Passover...the night anti-Semites like to "recall" the blood libel. Coincidence?  We think not.

    That being said, I've read through most of the comments so far and have yet to see one addressing the hatred expressed by many on the Left towards Israel, so let me add my two cents on that subject. Plenty of leftist orgs extoll Palestine while spitting on Israel and Jews who support Israel, as though the situation was black and white. Israel is more than a political state; it's supposed to have been our safe haven.

    Both Israel and Pakistan were born in 1948, yet India's border "skirmishes" don't inspire half the animosity from the left.

    Tikkun Olam: Heal the world.

    by diamondpen on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 09:13:43 AM PDT

    •  One (none)
      can be against the policies of the Israeli gov't without being an anti-semite. There are many Jewish citizens of Israel that belong to various peace organizastions that rail against the policies of their gov't and sympathize with the plight of many Palestinians. I disagree with many of the Israeli gov't policies and this does not mean that I approve of or condone the killing of innocent Iraelis by some Palestinians. Neither do I approve when Israeli's kill innocent Palestinians.
      •  I completely agree (none)
        Perhaps I need to be more specific: I was turned off to ads Not In Our Name because its full-page ads referred to acts of violence worldwide included genocide against Palestine without including rising violence against Jews (in Israel and elsewhere), thus painting Israel's existance as the problem, not its current politics. But let me not single out NION; it's happening now at Collumbia University, and it happened in the 1980s when the left showed hostility toward the momvement to free Soviet Jews. (How many knew that Russian passports were stamped "Jew"?)

        Many of us on the left are Jewish, and many of us Jewish leftists are embarassed to be "different" and thus become self-hating, not unlike homophobic gays.

        Passover tells the story of the Hebrew exodus from Egypt, translated from "Mitzrayim," meaning "narrow place."  Many of us who revel in our Jewish culture (whether or not we are religious) struggle with "mitzrayim" daily, wondering whether we are truly assimilated into the US or whether we are living the same pipe dream as our pre-WWII German ancestors.

        Tikkun Olam: Heal the world.

        by diamondpen on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 09:58:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I am in the left and went left in my politics (none)
      because of my horror at the Holocaust and my two opposite feelings that I held simultaneously of identifying with the Jews and shame that I was in a group that did not help the Jews (Canadians). Because of the historical fact of anti-semitism in general and the Holocaust in particular, I have always supported the right to existence of the State of Israel, even while knowing that its coming into being caused hardship to others. When I went to university in the early 70s, at that point I practically became Jewish. Every Jewish person I knew and know now was left-wing in their politics relative to the mainstream of American politics. I met very admirable and courageous, humane people who influenced my politics permanently.
      Regardless of all that, I think the policies of Natanyahu and now Sharon have been quite disastrous. On the other hand, this is one place where I do agree with Tom Friedman--I think that the Palestians are in love with being the victim and pursuing the intifada. Their leadership has been utterly irresponsible. I also think the Europeans have not come out at crucial times and supported Israel more forcefully which suggests to me that there is still a fair amount of anti-semitism in Europe. Regardless of all these feelings, I do not like or admire Israel's policies in recent years at all and I do not consider it anti-semitic or anti-Jewish to say that.

      The U.S. government has been taken over by organized crime.

      by lecsmith on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:29:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is only partly true (none)
    Its not the Jews. It's the secular Jews. And for that matter, it's the secular non-Jews who they will go after. And then let's throw in Muslims and Arabs of all stripes.

    My question is, when will the handful of orthodox and conservative rabbis who have supported these nuts wake up and smell the coffee? Or do they see this as a bonanza to get secular Jews back into their congregations?

    And, since I was born, bred, and indoctrinated Catholic, when will the "fat cat" bishops and cardinals who have facilitated this theocracy get into the act? I can't wait to see if they come out approving the theocrats message or condemning it. My bet is that they will remain silent until the wind shows which way it is blowing ... just like they did in Germany and Italy in WWII.

    "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

    by Glinda on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 09:31:38 AM PDT

  •  Not Worried About the Majority of American Jews (none)
    We're on the same side. I'm just worried about the (mostly very rich) mercenaries who give aid and comfort to the neocons and their fundy mob of brownshirts.

    Why is Richard Perle not in prison?

    We the undersigned urge you to support Federal funding for research using human pluripotent stem cells. -80 Nobel Laureates to Pres. Bush

    by easong on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 09:34:50 AM PDT

  •  Dad (4.00)
    My dad is a Holocaust survivor. His dad, like so many other European Jews, didn't believe Hitler was for real, and did believe they could weather whatever temporary storm might arose.

    My grandfather was murdered by the Germans. My father, aunt and grandmother spent 5 years posing as Catholics, hiding in plain sight, always at risk of getting caught. They were lucky - extremely lucky - to survive.

    Why didn't my grandfather (after whom I am named) realize? Why didn't he fucking know? He had the money - why didn't he fucking leave?

    I don't know the answer. I think about the question all the time, though: How would you know - how would anyone know? Is hindsight just 20/20? Or is there a way you can tell in advance?

    What I do know is this: I am scared. And I am going to be much quicker on the trigger than my grandfather was. I would rather leave on a false alarm than get stuck behind because I waited too long.

    •  How would you know? Come on! (4.00)
      There's an abundance of hysteria, paranoia and outright ignorance on this thread, IMO.  This horror doesn't happen overnight anywhere in history.  Step One is Demonization.

      In the Nazi Socialists' case, there was a years' long run up:

      Nazi Anti-Jewish Laws

      Shortly after Hitler's appointment as Reich Chancellor on January 30, 1933, the Reichstag (German parliament) began to institute a series of anti-Jewish decrees. Sections of these laws are quoted below:

      April 7, 1933

      Laws for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service
      "Civil servants who are not of Aryan (non-Jewish) descent are to be retired."

      April 7, 1933

      Law Regarding Admission to the Bar
      "Persons who, according to the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service of April 7, 1933, are of non-Aryan descent may be denied admission to the bar."

      April 25, 1933

      Law Against the Crowding of German Schools
      and Institutions of Higher Learning
      "In new admissions, care is to be taken that the number of Reich Germans who, according to the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service of April 7, 1933, are of non-Aryan descent, out of the total attending each school and each faculty, does not exceed the proportion of non-Aryans within the Reich German population."

      Nuremberg Laws

      With the passage of the Nuremberg Laws by the Reichstag on September 15, 1935, the first direct attack on individual Jews was launched. These laws mark a sharp progression toward an irreversible anti-Semitic policy. In the future, no Jew would be able to escape intensified persecution.

      September 15, 1935

      Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor

      "Marriages between Jews and subjects of German or kindred blood are forbidden...Extramarital intercourse forbidden between Jews and subjects of German or kindred blood...Jews are forbidden to fly the Reich and national flag and to display Reich colors...They are, on the other hand, allowed to display the Jewish colors...Whoever violates the prohibition...will be punished by penal servitude."

      September 15, 1935
      Reich Citizenship Law

      "A Reich citizen is only that subject of German or kindred blood who proves by his conduct that he is willing and suited loyally to serve the German people and the Reich."

      November 14, 1935

      First Decree to the Reich Citizenship Law
      "A Jew cannot be a Reich citizen. He is not entitled to the right to vote on political matters; he cannot hold public office...A Jew is anyone descended from at least three grandparents who are fully Jewish as regards race...Also deemed a Jew is a Jewish Mischlung subject who is descended from two fully Jewish grandparents and...who belonged to the Jewish religious community...who was married to a Jew...who is the offspring of a marriage concluded by a Jew...who is an offspring of extramarital intercourse with a Jew..."

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      August 17, 1938

      Second Decree for the Implementation of the
      Law Regarding Changes of Family Names
      "Jews may be given only such given names as are listed in the Guidelines on the Use of Given Names issued by the Reich Minister of the Interior... Insofar as Jews have other given names than those which may be given to Jews...they are obligated, beginning January 1, 1939, to assume an additional given name, namely the given name Israel in the case of males and the given name Sarah in the case of females."  
       ADL link

      ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

      by PhillyGal on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:06:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Story (4.00)
        I share a very personal story, and I'm told I'm hysterical, paranoid and ignorant. Not exactly the response I was hoping for, but oh well.

        I'll have you know that my family did not live in Germany, so none of these laws applied to them when they were passed. In fact, their nightmare did happen almost overnight, when German and Russian forces invaded Poland and split it in two. (The "Polish September Campaign" took barely more than a month.)

        •  Personal. (none)
          I know your story was personal, and I certainly appreciated your comment.

          However, that doesn't mean that I think it applied to what this diary is about.

          I rated PhillyGal's comment a 4 because I think it does apply to the comments in general in this thread (she used the term "on this thread"). I didn't take the comment to be directed at you specifically, though since it was posted as a reply to yours, I can see how you would assume it was. I just didn't take it as such.

          I understand the feelings of anxiety that people have; I just don't think the comparison with Nazi Germany is that applicable.

          •  Indeed, Frank; my error was to reply (none)
            to David; I should have posted a stand alone post instead.

            Again, David, no disrespect to your family's history, of course -- I was replying to a much bigger theme.

            ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

            by PhillyGal on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:56:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Geez. (none)
          I was, as you surely know, responding to your query 'how would be know' -- we would know b/c these things do not happen in vacuums.  The point remains, and what happened on the Eastern Front, in a full blown war, started in Nazi Socialist Germany w/laws and decrees, and the apathy of Western Europe.

          America today -- not during World War II - as you know FDR was an anti-Semite - deliberately restricting Jewish immigration; turning away the St. Louis in 1940 carrying 900 Jewish refugess to a certain death, etc., etc., but America today, most fortunately, is a different and better country.

          FDR link

          ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

          by PhillyGal on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:44:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, (none)
            as you know FDR was an anti-Semite - deliberately restricting Jewish immigration; turning away the St. Louis in 1940 carrying 900 Jewish refugess to a certain death

            Actually, more than half of the Passangers on the St. Louis survived.

            Also, the restictions on Jewish immigration can be more directly attributed to the "old deal" State Department and Breckinridge Long, a high ranking official in charge of European Refugee affairs during the 30s.

          •  How do you know (none)
            that the PATRIOT ACT isn't equivalent to the Nuremberg laws, and the Dept of Homeland Security is not a potential Gestapo? If your name is Mohamed or Mahmoud it is already. First they came for the muslims....

            oil=lebensraum

          •  We (none)
            we would know b/c these things do not happen in vacuums.  The point remains, and what happened on the Eastern Front, in a full blown war, started in Nazi Socialist Germany w/laws and decrees, and the apathy of Western Europe.

            I don't see how you can say that we would know now if fascism were on the march because of all the blatant things done by the Nazis in Germany prior to WWII. In fact, my point is that despite all of these things, so many people didn't seem to know what was coming - there was either a denial or ignorance about the entire situation.

            Just because we may be more vigilant now doesn't mean we'll see the signs properly. Indeed, should the unthinkable come to pass, there is every chance it will unfold quite differently than it did 70 years ago.

            Indulge me in a thought experiment for a moment: Suppose you were truly a fascist in today's world, with aims at brutal domination. You have some power, and are part of a very secret movement. Would you try to ape what the Nazis did? I don't think you would - you wouldn't want to set people's alarm bells off too quickly.

            My guess is, you'd want to use the "frog in the pot" method - you know, if you put the frog in boiling water, it leaps out instantly, but if you put it in cool water and slowly raise the temperature, it'll boil to death.

            I think the Nazis used the first method, and it worked for them because no one had ever tried it before and no one was expecting it (hence the denial). But with a world (or at least, some small part of it) on alert today, I think any future attempt at fascist domination would have to arrive much more subtly - until one day, without having been aware of it all along, you wake up and realize you're in boiling water. And at that point, it's too late.

            I'm not saying I'm right, that we're already in the throes of fascism, etc. Rather, I'm simply saying that if the signs are going to be different, we might not see them because we don't know what to look for.

            In other words, history is a helpful guidepost, but it may not be an accurate roadmap to the future.

    •  David, I am scared too, and I (none)
      am not Jewish, but my husband and son are. We have no choice but to be zealous about this. I think your grandfather didn't know because it seems unfathomable that people could do what the Nazis did. But they can. And, although I still hold the optimistic and perhaps irrational feeling that it is still a remote possibility here, we have to be on guard against it all the time, more so than I have ever seen in my life (but I was too young in the 50s to understand the McCarthy era).

      The U.S. government has been taken over by organized crime.

      by lecsmith on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:35:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (none)
    I've got a bad feeling about this...

    Evan Bayh 2008
    Miller for KY Governor 2007
    http://kydem.blogspot.com

    by dsolzman on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 10:20:10 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for this diary. I mentioned being (none)
    scared to death on another thread and got a lecture back about being a pessimist: Americans were "seeing the light and waking up". Right.  We can't find a majority of our SENATORS to fight an extreme wingnut judiciary.

    So be a Holly GoLightly if it helps.  I'd rather be scared and prepared...

  •  Ditto to all of it. (4.00)
    And I'm not going anywhere, either. They'll get to the Jews and the gays and the people of colour over my dead body. Of course, I may have to kill a few of them myself, if it comes to that -- and I am a-okay with that.

    I am not a pacifist.

    Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

    by Maryscott OConnor on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:03:42 AM PDT

  •  Pat Robertson (none)
    When dealing with racism or religious bigotry, I generally end up saying something like this: "Shut the Fuck Up, You Fucking Asshole.  What the fuck is your problem?" and leave it at that.

    I'm not sure most Theocrats define their own religious bigotry mainly in terms of anti-Semitism, however:


    "When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo-Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'"

    -Pat Robertson, "The New World Order"

    Pat Robertson and Falwell's comments after 9/11 (abridged) also suggest they see their enemies as secular liberals. Note they do bring up the ACLU, but they don't bring up AIPAC.  I think the confusion here may come in because evangelicals take their religious beliefs (that Wealth is like a big thank you note from GOP-God and that Poverty is a Sin, for instance) a lot more seriously than we do:

    Falwell: "God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."
    Robertson:  "Well, Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror, we haven't begun to see what they can do to the major population."
    Falwell: "The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this....I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen."
    Robertson: "I totally concur, and the problem is we've adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government, and so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do, and the top people, of course, is the court system."
    Falwell added, "Pat, did you notice yesterday that the ACLU and all the Christ-haters, the People for the American Way, NOW, etc., were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress, as they went out on the steps and and called out to God in prayer and sang 'God bless America' and said, let the ACLU be hanged. In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time, calling on God."

    I would conclude by saying of course there is coded langauge, but a lot of this is pretty explicit. From what I can tell, they hate the lawyers at the ACLU and the liberal media, but they don't hate conservative lawyers or the conservative media.

    "Orthodoxy, of whatever color, seems to demand a lifeless, imitative style." --George Orwell

    by markymarx on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:07:11 AM PDT

    •  And they don't hate Jews either, do they? (none)

      ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

      by PhillyGal on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:10:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  p.s. I've watched Robertson's 700 Club (none)
        and it's staunchly pro-Israel and Jews.

        Any threat to American Jews is not going to come from the Religous Right.

        ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

        by PhillyGal on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:16:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Only as it suits their interests (none)
          I disagree that folks like Robertson are in any way favorable to Jews.

          Israel, maybe, as that is a Holy Land being protected by the Israelis against the "infidels."

          •  You're free to disagree, but the fact (none)
            remains, unless you can prove otherwise.

            Back in the Spring, I believe, Robertson travelled to Israel and gave an interview where he was quoted that he'd form a third political party if any part of Jerusalem were given to the Arabs.  They're intensely pro-Israel -- you can be cynical, view Jews and Christians as strange bedfellows, by they do share a mutual interest of strong Israel.

            Again, the threat to American Jews, or to Israel, will not come from the Religous Right.

            You'll never see Palestinian flags at religous rallies, the way you see them at anti-war rallies ;)

            ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

            by PhillyGal on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:31:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  well (none)
              Personally, I think Pat Robertson is only  "Pro-Israel" in his own mind, in the same way he imagines he's pro-America.  Basically, he and Falwell and the other fundies support the most extremist, self-defeating, hate-based politics possible.  And there's a lot of evidence that their conscious or unconscious goal is to bring on the Apocalypse.  
               

              "Orthodoxy, of whatever color, seems to demand a lifeless, imitative style." --George Orwell

              by markymarx on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:53:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  He's pro-Israel in word and deed, (none)
                so I don't know what you mean, and in whose mind, etc.

                ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

                by PhillyGal on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:59:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I mean (none)
                  Sorry, I need to be more clear.  Support for the politics of the religious right in Israel isn't being pro-Israel, any more than it's Pro-America to support extremist evangelical politics here.  

                  "Orthodoxy, of whatever color, seems to demand a lifeless, imitative style." --George Orwell

                  by markymarx on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:09:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Rapture... (none)
                  Most fundies are pro-Israel/pro-Jew because of the whole end times/rapture scenario.

                  And the Jews have to die when that all plays out, so I wouldn't say that their intentions are honorable.

                  10-20 years ago, fundies like Robertson were demonizing Jews, saying things like "God does not hear the prayers of Jews", etc.

            •  One can support Israel but hate certain Jews (none)
              I'm sure for his own theological reasons Pat Robertson loves both Israel and Orthodox Jews. I'm not Jewish, but I wonder where that leaves all the Jews I know, who are secular, liberal or left wing, and "cosmopolitan?" I suspect that Robertson has a passionate hatred for these "Christ denying" Jews.

              "Men use thought only to justify their wrongdoing, and employ speech only to conceal their thoughts." Voltaire

              by chimpwatch on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:44:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  yeah (none)
            There is something incredibly creepy and insidious about the whole "support for Israel" thing.  Basically, it's "bring on the apocalypse," and all of the Jews will supposedly convert to Christianity. But remember, in this same narrative, most everyone else is first killed by some sort of Mel Gibson action adventure with an avenging Christ/ GOD and then cast into hell.

            "Orthodoxy, of whatever color, seems to demand a lifeless, imitative style." --George Orwell

            by markymarx on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:33:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  read the post (none)
        The above statements are pretty clear.  Head theocrat Pat Robertson wants (conservative) Christians and Jews in government and not Muslims and Hindus, liberals or secularists.  Who he hates, we can speculate.

        "Orthodoxy, of whatever color, seems to demand a lifeless, imitative style." --George Orwell

        by markymarx on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:28:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No way (none)
          He was railing against world bankers recently.
          Look, this canard isn't fooling anyone.
          •  good point... (none)
            Going after "world bankers" is classic paranoid-freak-anti-semitism.  So let me amend my earlier point:

            Robertson is very interested in a marriage of convenience with conservative Jews that includes bringing "only Christians and Jews into government." Shorter term, he must think this will help conservative evangelicals take over the country.  Longer term, he sees that marriage of convenience as helping fulfill evangelical biblical prophecy. Now consider the fact that biblical prophesy might be awhile off.  That means this marriage of convience could be secure for some time.

            He's not interested, however, in ANY political alliances with liberal Jews or liberal Christians, or other liberals, gays, feminists, or other non-Christians. Even IF these groups might help him gain some power, no bridges.  Now isn't that partly because he hates these groups so much? That he sees them all as wearing little devil horns?  Hard to say, but that's my hunch.

            "Orthodoxy, of whatever color, seems to demand a lifeless, imitative style." --George Orwell

            by markymarx on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:28:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Dog Whistle Politics (4.00)
    I read recently that this is a new phrase which has taken hold in the UK, I believe.

    Essentially, it allows the speaker to speak in a sort of code which allows those who know the language to understand what the speaker intends. For the rest of us, those who are not versed in the code, we do not hear the intended hate the way those familiar with the code do.

    Thus, dog whistle politics. Only some can hear.

    All the anti-semitism--Frist and Justice Sunday--this is dog whistle politics, I believe

  •  This has probably been said (none)
    but it's just not the jews.

    My gay friends are scared shitless.

    My friends from India are extremely nervous.

    And me with my two half japanese/ half northern euro kids and my nisei wife, I ain't too comfortable either.

    To the Christian Identity folks and other white supremacists I'm a race traitor, and their seems to be a lot of enabling of that lunacy going on at present.

    It is a very mixed blessing to be brought back from the dead.

    by Steven D on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:42:16 AM PDT

  •  i've been very scared for quite a while now (none)

    The first lesson of democracy is not to hold the public in contempt. - Ronnie Earle, Travis County DA, Texas

    by profmarcus on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:43:07 AM PDT

  •  Common ground is dangerous ground (4.00)
    "...is it that some Democrats want to search for "common ground" when that "common ground" may easily and quickly lead to their own demise?"

    I am of the Vietnam era, and one thing that was extremely clear at that time was that any government that accepted Communists as part of a coalition government soon found that the Communists had taken over and the non-Communists were out of government and often in prison. It is impossible to find common ground in government with unethical people.

    Experience with Republicans in the last decade has been similar, and is getting more like the experience with Communists.

    There are Lies, Damned Lies and then FOX News.' Politics Plus Stuff

    by Rick B on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:43:42 AM PDT

  •  ...and I'm one of those heathen liberal jews... (none)
    AMEN!

    be scared... be very scared...

    early 30's it started with the gays too...

  •  Anti-Semitism in the U.S. (none)
    I'm perusing the ADL website and they recently released their latest Anti-Semitism Audit ---

    and the highest ratio ain't in the red states! (don't know what it means, but it sure is intersting)

    "Continuing a longstanding trend, states with the most total incidents included New York (350, down from 364 in 2003); New Jersey (297, up from 209); California (237, up from 180); Florida (173, up from 102); Massachusetts (128, up from 102) and Connecticut (81, up from 70)."

    full ADL report

    ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

    by PhillyGal on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 11:54:57 AM PDT

    •  Well, the reason is clear (none)
      The most anti-semitic incidents are likely to be found where Jews tend to live. Anti-semites need a handy target, and painting a swastika on a church won't do. It's easier to find a Jewish cemetary in New York or Florida than Alabama or North Dakota.

      But that doesn't mean there isn't bigotry on the left, too. I've seen it. I've seen it here.

      In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

      by Paul in Berkeley on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:19:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  duh on my part. (none)
        The far right has a white supremacist agenda, and the far left? beats me -- they're the crowd that believe that neo-conservatives are a Jewish cabal, Jews are the new Nazis, blah, blah, and wave Palestinian flags at anti-War rallies.

        Neither extreme is aligned w/Christian groups, as far as I know ----- e.g, anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe, while Christianity is on a steep decline.

        ...Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things....

        by PhillyGal on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:20:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Alignment with Christian groups (none)
          I don't see the alignment with Christian groups either. Regarding your exchange elsewhere about Pat Robertson, he may not say anything objectionable, but I wouldn't trust him any farther than I could throw him.  As a Jew, I feel like his warm feelings towards me are extremely shallow. I don't want to be his pet in the World To Come.

          In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

          by Paul in Berkeley on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 03:06:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The 'far left?' (none)
          Hasn't the far left historically been home to many Jewish intellectuals?  You can go on and on about the "far left" waving the Palestinian flag, but you are oversimplifying, aren't you?

          Who was persecuted/prosecuted under McCarthyism?  Who were the radicals of the late `60s who led the uprising at the Democratic Convention in Chicago in `68?

          Maybe I'm missing something here...

          •  don't look for reason or honesty (none)
            from PhillyGal.

            If you refute her, she'll just stick her tongue out at you with a cute litle LOL.

            I'm going to do a post on my most intimidating heroes, the Refuseniks, because since I was almost born a kibbutzim, wondering if I would have been brave/smart enough to see through the bs and be one of them is something I've had to ask myself a lot, more and more often.

            And I just don't know - it took me over ten years to get clear of conservativism, and another five years for me to admit to myself that no, I wasn't a moderate, I was a flaming liberal and always had been, where it counted. And I still sometimes envy those of my acquaintance who remain in the safe zone of absolutes, Bob. I don't want to be one of them, that's why my profile says "happily disillusioned" - but quaevis numina, it's brutally exhausting to be your own alpha and not be able to look to authority for the answers to quiet your conscience. I just wonder what it would be like to be unshakeably certain again, like Holsclaw and Tacitus and Noonan, sometimes...

            "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

            by bellatrys on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:30:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I heard exactly that same phrase (none)
    from the father of my daughter's classmates.  I think it was summer of 2001, we were standing around talking while our kids were on carnival rides.

    He was telling me how hard it is to raise girls (he had an older daughter too) and how he was trying to keep a close watch on them.  He then started to go off against the malicious influences he's up against--it seemed he was going to say "Hollywood" when he asked rhetorically what the biggest problem out there was.  Instead he answered "It's the Jews".  I was so stunned that I was speechless.

    In the same conversation, he told me how conservative he is.  He has a picture of Ronald Reagan in the office (of the small manufacturing business he owns).

    Now this guy generally has a reputation for being an all-around nutjob, though not necessarily a conservative nutjob.

    Just thought I'd add something that I found shocking in my own little world.  But then there aren't that many Jews who live around here in my part of W Pa.  (One thing I noticed when I moved back here from the East Coast is that when you say someone is "Orthodox" it means Orthodox Christian vs. Orthodox Jew.)  

    From the comparatively more frequent comments I hear about blacks, though, I'd say the undercurrent has always been there, it is just maybe not expressed in as hushed tones nowadays.

    •  stunned..... (none)

      That would have stunned me, even in Oklahoma.  
      I was recently surprised to received the following chain email from someone who was once my son's sunday school teacher at a Disciples of Christ(relatively progressive) church.

      Its long so I'll just post the first and last paragraph, which contains the part I found the most offensive:

      Right on, Andy Rooney!
      Andy Rooney said on "60 Minutes" a few weeks back:

      I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens...Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door.

      ........................

      I am sick of "Political Correctness." I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be "African-Americans"? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe. I am proud to be from America and nowhere else.!

      And if you don't like my point of view, tough...

      DON'T PASS IT ON!!

      As bad as things have gotten, I've not seen such blatant racism from people I would consider somewhat educated, mainstream, or PEOPLE I ONCE WENT TO CHURCH WITH!  I once thought the woman who sent this was "the salt of the earth".  

      I find it frightening that people are getting to be so brazen about saying thing that basically express a racist point of view.  WIth your friend's comment about "the Jews" I have to wonder if this is the next level we as a society are going to sink to.

  •  The Demonization of the Trial Bar (4.00)
    is actually all about Big Business wanting to destroy legal accountability for their misdeeds. The Tort "Reform" agenda, which is in fact the deprivation of all citizens of their legal rights, is judicial deregulation in the eyes of Big Business. Regulation by executive branch agencies is bad; Regulation by the courts -- that is, Justice by the People, a/k/a juries, for the People -- is worse.

    To make it happen, to convince the People that their legal rights should be minimized or eliminated, they had to create and burn down a strawman, the Trial Lawyers.

    The Republican Party, which is of course bought and paid for by Big Business, was delighted to jump on this bandwagon since the Trial Lawyers are the most liberal professionals in the country and contribute hugely, financially and otherwise, to the Democratic Party; and of course they, the Republicans, have no interest in People anyway, at least as compared to Power and Money.

    Bottom line: This is yet another Corporations v. Citizens issue.

  •  Narrow Analysis (4.00)
    Not yours, Bob. I'm afraid you are exactly right, although I've been a bit blinded to it up til recently.

    No, I mean the people that disagree with you. I'm afraid their analysis might be too narrow and formalistic. For example, those that quibble over whether "Hollywood Liberals" and similar terms are code for "Jews." Well, rare will be the day when you find a politician or TV commentator blatantly speak their bigotry. Of course they will use code words and euphemisms. The upper-class British were masters of the innocuous code phrase.  We aren't nearly so deft. This morning, on CNN, Wolf Blitzer had Bob Dole on.  Blitzer showed the Frist ad, where the boy is trying to choose between God and public service. Dole was clearly uncomfortable with the ad, but then he made a comment about Democratic opposition to Bush judicial appointments, and he singled out one Democrat for mention. Charles Schumer of New York. Not Harry Reid. Not Tom Harkin.  Not Hillary Clinton.  Well, anyone who didn't know what Dole meant is, quite plainly, a moron.

    Also, there's the claim that what happened in Nazi Germany can't happen again. Of course it can't. And the Holocaust wasn't exactly like the Russian Tsars forcing Jews to live in the Pale, and instigating pogroms. Nor was it exactly like the Spanish Inquisition and Expulsion. Or the Crusades.  It's different every time.  That doesn't mean that oppression and hate won't rise up again. It will, and it will take a unique form.

    As for me, I'd prefer to be able to look back in 10 years and say I overreacted.  

    In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

    by Paul in Berkeley on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:16:04 PM PDT

  •  Since Christianity is the source of anti-Semitism, (none)
    the Christian theocracy that the Republican Party seems determined to establish will almost certainly be a threat to Jews. I expect that before they turn on the Jews, they'll get the Gays, Muslims, and Atheists first, and they will probably focus on secular, not religious Jews. After all, these nuts worship Israel.  

    "Men use thought only to justify their wrongdoing, and employ speech only to conceal their thoughts." Voltaire

    by chimpwatch on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:31:19 PM PDT

  •  For your reading list (none)
    The Plot Against America, by Philip Roth.  

    In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

    by Paul in Berkeley on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 12:35:01 PM PDT

  •  What was it Jim Garrison said in 1967? (none)
    Huey Long once said, "Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism." I'm afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security.
  •  It is the Jews (none)
    Or, to be more precise, it's the Zionists. Of course "Zionist" is just a fancy word for Jewish extremists, who are very much in bed with Christian extremists. I have no doubt most Jews reject the policies of the unspeakably corrupt Sharon, just as most Christians would reject Bush and his associates if they ever bothered to pay any attention to... well... anything. This whole mess can be simplified better as a bloody soap opera involving Christian, Jewish and Muslim extremists than some kind of Nazi revival. Before anyone gets too defensive of Israel (its all the dirty Arabs fault, right) take a moment to reflect on the fact that Israel attacked a US Naval vessel,the USS Liberty, in international waters killing 34 sailors in an apparent attempt to sink her using unmarked fighter jets and unflagged torpedo boats. What was that all about? Also, why did Israel take technology and equipment provided it by our government (in its infinite wisdom), ostensibly to protect our noble "friends" from the dirty Arabs, and then sell those assets to The People's Republic of China (who almost certainly intend to use it against US and Taiwanese forces in their long planned invasion of Taiwan). What about the 3 billion dollars worth of anti-semitism our government forks over to Israel annually. How about the threats made by Zionists against intellectuals (such as Juan Cole) who dare to question their agenda. These are things that make me go "hmmmm". I am no fan of Jew haters (or any other haters, for that matter) and I am not saying the actions of extremists represent the entire religion. Nor am I saying the actions of a government reflect the wishes of those it governs. I am saying the holocaust was a long time ago, this isn't Germany and if we hope to save our society from ruin, we all need to pull our heads out of our asses and try to understand whos doing what to whom and why. Cheap holocaust rhetoric gets us nowhere.

    "I am not a crook" - The Honourable Richard M. Nixon

    by tricky dick on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 02:42:00 PM PDT

    •  oh keep slinging that epithet around (none)
      "Zionist" is also a code word for "Jews", as the above poster points out in his headline and his first sentence.  

      The above poster just doesn't get it.

      There is not enough knows about the USS Liberty to make the conclusions that you are making.  Some have concluded that the US was spying on Israel and Israel mistook the vessel as an enemy vessel.  And yet, somehow, you've got all the evidence to make these conclusions.

      I am no fan of Jew haters
      I'm always skeptical of posters that feel the need to post this.

      I am saying the holocaust was a long time ago
      No, it wasn't.  People who were victims of the Holocaust are still alive.  Dude, the stereotype that Jews love money comes from the early Renaissance.  That was a long time ago and that stereotype is still around.

      •  I don't hate Jews, and damn you for saying so (none)
        Whenever someone accuses someone of being anti-semetic, I get suspicious. I guess I can't do a vulcan mind-meld with you to prove that I do not, in fact, hate Jews. So I'm not even going to go there. You don't know me and I can't defend myself against your nasty suggestion that I hate Jews. I never said anything about people who happen to be Jewish, what I said was that the Israeli government cannot be trusted. Nor can Jewish religious extremists. They will use the horror of the holocaust to advance there political agenda in the same way that Bush uses the horror of 911 to advance his. Saying I hate Jews or even Israelis when I criticise Sharon and his ilk is like saying I hate Americans if I criticise Bush. Look, I grew up in a Christian extremist background and know all too well what they mean when they wax poetic about Judeo-Christian Values. There is a lot of racism going on with this movement, and they're not all on the same page. Many of them do, in fact, hate Jews. But their leaders don't, at least not the Zionists. They are reading from the same sheet of music. Yes to settlements, no to an independent Palestine, no to giving muslims Eastern Jerusalem. And don't tell me Zionism is just some slanderous fantasy dreamed up by KKK conspiracy theorists. Its very real and very dangerous. We have no stake in this battle and shouldn't be taking sides. Israel has the bomb and can take care of themselves. Getting involved in this nonsense is why we are in the mess we are. It is why 911 happened. We shouldn't give a dime to Israel or Egypt for that matter. As for your statement concerning the Liberty, my God, you can't be serious. As you remind me that some holocaust survivors and their families remain, I would remind you there are survivors and family members of survivors from the Liberty who are still deeply wounded that their own countrymen insist on calling them liars. I personally find it hard to believe that they are lying concerning the events of the day. As far as their "spying", the USS Liberty was reconnaissence vessel. It was thier duty to "spy". They were in international waters and were UNARMED! My question to you would be...  what was it that the Israeli Government didn't want them to see.

        Need to breathe. Calm. Be calm.

        It is unfortunate that you attacked me in such a personally hateful manner. I don't feel it is fair to accuse attacking individuals because I oppose a large institution specifically, in this case, Sharon's government. I feel people are sympathetic to Israel because they are sympathetic to Jews in general, or perhaps they find anti-semitism so distastful. I, personally, always thought of Israel as "our allies". However, my own cognitive dissonance has become to great these past few years. I don't think I want to support these people. Maybe that means distancing our Government from Israel. Perhaps that will lead to change and reform there. It is desperately needed. I hope that the people of Israel, most of whom I believe are decent at heart, will turn away from racism and religious extremism and will follow the example of Rabin. I hope this will lead to peace in the world. But it has to begin there, the current path will only lead to more madness and destruction, and we will all be dragged down into the fire.

        "I am not a crook" - The Honourable Richard M. Nixon

        by tricky dick on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:40:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ugh you have no clue (none)
          Hmmmm.  I didn't say you hated Jews.  Why do you feel the need to tell me that you don't hate Jews?  

          I find it interesting that in a diary about Jews being attacked by the right, you go make a post about how the Zionists are really the ones to blame and now the Zionists are the reason why 9-11 happened????

          (You wrote it!  It is why 911 happened)

          Have you read the 9-11 report?  While America's support for Israel is cited as one reason, it is not THE reason and the report concludes that 9-11 would have happened even without America's involvement in Israel.  Of course, you can chalk up the 9-11 report to too many Zionists being involved in our government.  Those Zionists are so sneaky, how they work their way into our government.

          And don't tell me Zionism is just some slanderous fantasy dreamed up by KKK conspiracy theorists.

          Where are you getting this?  The Protocols of Zion?  FYI There are many Zionists for a Palestinean state.  The Labor party in Israel is full of Zionists.  If you believe in Israel's right to exist you are a Zionist.  To use the blanket term "Zionist" in such a monolithic way shows a naive, childish understanding of what the term means.

          PS Israel is not a society of religious extremism.  Sharon isn't all that religious.  Nor is it a facist society.  On a scale of 1 to 9 with 1 being the highest, Israel was rated a "1" for political freedom and a "3" for civil rights.  No other country in the Middle East rated above a 5 on anything.  Of course, that's Newsweek's rating, and you can just chalk it up to our liberal (Jewish) media.  Or, in this case, our conservative (Zionist) media???

          •  I'm going to try to be reasonable (none)
            Because all this name calling isn't doing either of us any good. I don't understand why it is suspicious that I say "I don't hate Jews". I don't. I'll be completely honest with you. For a long time, I hated Christians. I would like to think I'm over it now, but I grew up surrounded by the intolerant, crazy fuckers and yes, I hated them. I hardly ever came across any Jews and the ones I encountered seemed like nice people. I actually stayed in the house of an older Jewish couple in Milwaukee for a couple of months. It was their summer house and a couple of guys I knew were house sitting for the winter. Very nice people. I liked them. I don't know jack about Judaism (or Islam) but I don't need to. I'm not a big fan of religion and religious fanatics are low on my list. Zionists are religious fanatics. I believe that and will stand by that statement. To be clear, I feel that any person who believes that God promised Judea to the Jewish people and that therefore it is justifiable to take this land (which I understand some believe extends all the way to Damascus) by force without regard for the people currently living in the "Promised Land" is a Zionist. I believe that, I've actually heard people (Christians) articulate this view and I'll certainly stand by that statement. I'm oppossed to this world view. Totally.

            Sharon is a bad guy, I believe that. I believe it in my gut the way I believe Bush is a bad guy. I don't care how free Israel is. The US is quite free (at the moment) however, that doesn't stop our government from doing despicable things. If people in the US can be persuaded to vote for Bush in spite of his obvious faults, I reason that people in Israel can be persuaded to likewise support a corrupt regime for all the wrong reasons. I have hope that people there as well as here will come to their senses and reject this madness. However, there are problems. While there are many things I do not know about Israeli society, one thing I do know, they hate Arabs. Likewise Arabs hate Jews. This is bad. I believe hate is bad. I'll stand by that statement too.

            As far as the 911 comment, look I'm not going to spend an hour talking about meddling in Iranian politics in the 50's, meddling in Iraqi politics in the 80's, the numerous mistakes made in Afghanistan over the years or the clusterfuck that is our nations current "freedom is on the march" policy. However, there is no doubt in my mind (and I don't see how anyone could honestly dispute this) that our favourable treatment of Israel over the years and our failure to join with the rest of world in condeming mistreatment of Palestinians by the Israeli Government made our nation a prime target for Islamic extremists. I didn't, as a matter of fact, say it was the only reason, as you stated. Merely a really, really big one. Of course, it is difficult to understand the motives of extremists. They tend to be an unreasonable lot. I don't want you to next quote me out of context as saying we should give Bin Laden whatever he wants so he won't attack us again. I don't think we should yield to extremists anywhere. I think we should denounce them. All of them. Even the Jewish ones.

            As far as the Jewish media thing goes. Huh? Did I say something about that? Where did that come from? I mean, honestly, I've really gone off Ted Koppel the last couple of years. He's been a bit of a torture apologist and seemed to me to be a cheerleader for the war. But a lot of people were. I don't think he's part of any media conspiracy. He's the only prominant Jew in Media I can think of off the top of head. At least I think hes Jewish, maybe not. I don't really care. I don't care if people happen to be Jewish. As long as they're not extremist, I'm cool with it. I guess I'd rather people give up religion altogether, but I'm trying to be open minded about it.

            Finally, and I want to really clear here, what I'm oppossed to is any Government (foreign or domestic) that engages in religious extremism, torture, wars of conquest, terrorism, corruption, political assasinations, unprovoked attacks on defensless US military personnel (that one is real personal to me, if you hadn't noticed) killing of civilians... I could go on a while. I don't want to hear that Iran does these things. You will never hear me cheer for Iranian theocracy. I don't want to hear that the US government does these things. I'm all for cleaning house. The fact is these things happen largely because of religious nutjobs here and abroad who think they talk to God. You're not allowed the say that about the Jewish nutjobs, though. Your response to my original post more or less proved that. If you dare say so, you're an absurd conspiracy theorist who hates Jews.

            I don't feel it will do a lick of good to denounce one maniac (Bin Laden) if you don't denounce them all (Bush, Sharon). One of these days, I'm going to write a diary about the Liberty. I'm always amazed how many people have never heard of it. Don't tell me they mistook it for an Egytian vessel. They saw the stars and stripes very clearly. They knew exactly what they were doing. Why they did it, I'll leave that for the tin foil hat crowd. I don't know, but I can tell you this, they weren't concerned with our national interest when they did it... and they weren't trying to promote world peace.

            "I am not a crook" - The Honourable Richard M. Nixon

            by tricky dick on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 08:07:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you can't be reasonable when you know so little (none)
              Because all this name calling isn't doing either of us any good.

              I haven't called you a name.  But you are the one slinging around "Zionist" as if it is an ephitet.  The way you use it is completely different than what it is, and perhaps I should educate you since, as you say, you know little about Judaism (and I assume Jewish history).

              Zionists are religious fanatics.

              No, they are not.  Christian Zionists, yes, and that's where you make a grave error -- you use a Christian definition to define a Jewish term.  The movement started out as a completely secular movement.  Jews in Europe were being beaten, murdered and raped and Theodore Hertzl first coined the term as a response.  If Jews were unaccepted in Europe, they should start their own country.  After the Holocaust, thousands of Jews entered Israel doing just that.  Most countries did not permit/have room for so many Jewish refugees, and they entered Israel.  When Israel was declared a state, the most Othodox Jews protested, and still do protest, Israel's right to exist.  They believe that a Jewish state can only be founded with the coming of the Messiah.  They believe that all of Israel's problems are rooted in the idea that Jews have rushed things and have not followed God's commandments.  They are the religious extremists, not the Zionists.  Sharon, for example, is a secular Jew -- he is not a religious man.  The Labor Party (the liberal party) is made up of secular Jews who are Zionists -- anyone who believes in Israel's right to exist is a Zionist.  Thus, to be so monolithic with the way you use the term, and to confuse "Zionist" with "Christian Zionist" is, frankly, ignorant.  

              I didn't, as a matter of fact, say it was the only reason, as you stated. Merely a really, really big one.

              Actually, you did say it was the only reason:

              Israel has the bomb and can take care of themselves. Getting involved in this nonsense is why we are in the mess we are. It is why 911 happened.

              There ya go.  You can back pedal all you want now.

              Sharon is a bad guy, I believe that.

              You can believe that.  I also am no Sharon fan and would rather that Labor be in power.  I believe that.  I also believe that you are ignorant.

              While there are many things I do not know about Israeli society, one thing I do know, they hate Arabs. Likewise Arabs hate Jews.

              Don't be so monolithic.  There are a range of opinions, just as there are a range of opinions in the USA.  The Arabs do, however, have seats in the Israeli Parlaiment and can vote.

              You're not allowed the say that about the Jewish nutjobs, though. Your response to my original post more or less proved that.

              Talk all you want about Jewish nutjobs.  However, since you think that all Zionists are nutjobs, without understanding what the term means, I'd say that you are the nutjob.  

              One of these days, I'm going to write a diary about the Liberty. I'm always amazed how many people have never heard of it. Don't tell me they mistook it for an Egytian vessel. They saw the stars and stripes very clearly. They knew exactly what they were doing. Why they did it, I'll leave that for the tin foil hat crowd.

              Hmmm.  I think it's interesting how you are so sure about the USS Liberty and exactly what happened even though you are a private citizen with no access to classified information.  I'd say you are the one wearing the tin foil hat.

              I don't understand why it is suspicious that I say "I don't hate Jews". I don't.  

              You'll have to forgive me when I am skeptical of folks who say "I don't hate Jews" and "Some of my best friends are Jewish" and then sling the term "Zionist" without understanding what it means.  The way you are using it, you are attacking all Israelis and any American Jew who are supportive of Israel.  Those are a lot of Jews you are classifying as nutjobs.  But you don't hate Jews.  Just Zionists.  Never mind that the way you are using the term you are attacking 90% of Israeli and American Jews.  But some of your best friends are Jewish.  And you don't hate them.

              •  I don't hate Jews, but you sure do hate me (4.00)
                I'm only going to argue one point with you. Later. First I think there is the need for some full (or at least partial) disclosure.

                This issue matters to me because I am currently in Iraq. In the army. I am very much afraid that, because of tensions between religious extremists on all sides, terrible things will happen here. Much worse than what has happened to date.

                If I get a little emotional, forgive me, I tend to do that. I don't feel, however, it is fair to suggest, because of something I said about "not being anti-semitic" that I have a sinister alterior motive. You didn't say I was anti-semitic, but it was kind of implied and that really set me off. I think it would set a lot of people off. But that's really trivial. What matters (in my opinion) is whether I have a valid argument here. I think I do.

                I feel that getting involved in the mess that is middle-eastern affairs is a bad idea. I think we are fanning the flames and I think we are here not so much because they have oil (although thats part of it) but because of theology. Bad theology at that. I won't pretend that I'm not openly hostile toward religion in general. I hate the whole idea of it. But I think that even some religious folks can see that what some people are doing here is harmful.

                Beyond that, I just don't trust Israel. Sorry. I just don't. There's a saying, I don't remember it exactly, but it goes something like this... "It's not your enemies you should worry about, because they can't betray you". It means of course that a treacherous ally is worse than a fierce enemy. The founding fathers said something about foreign entanglements also, I think.

                Anyway, I promised to dispute one part of your previous statement and here it is. I am not a private citizen, and I have had access to classified information. I don't want to get into too much detail. Everything I said can be found in open-source media (largely due to agency leaks, and no, it wasn't me) so I'm not saying what I know or how. Nobody probably cares too much what a former analyst says, especially given that I was only there a few years and did largely routine work. But I was there, and I learned a few things.

                I don't trust Israel.

                I would like to thank you for your response, I enjoy a spirited debate and, while the discourse between us descended steadily into the mire (say what you will, but in your last response, you all but called me a nazi-sympathising holocaust denial conspiracy theorist) I do appreciate that you took the time to repond. I mean that, I'm not being a smartass. You didn't even have to bother at all. I guess you must find some value in what I'm saying, I'd like to think that. Maybe you just want to beat up on me. I don't want to think that.

                I am upset in the way you have attacked me personally, though. You say I'm attacking 90% of American Jews. I don't see how anyone could be so certain that I'm doing that, based on what I have written. Clearly, we have different ideas of what "Zionism" is. Maybe you would prefer if I said "Settlers", I'm still not sure I'm so completely wrong about that. I think it's maybe one of those hot-button words, a framing thing perhaps. But the point of my previous posts was (obviously, I thought) that people who think that they need to fight holy wars are out of their goddamn minds and should never be supported. Why would I attack 90% of American Jews? American Jews (though small in number) are a reliable democratic voting bloc. Only Black Americans are more loyal to our cause. The last thing I want to do is to offend an entire group of socially progressive Americans. It's not as if I'm a huge fan of the other side. But facts are facts, and the more people say "you can't say that dude" or "that isn't pc" the more I'm gonna keep on keeping on.

                Well, I went and wrote another novel. Oh well. I kind of have to sum this up... I don't know how to say this exactly. It seems to me that what your saying is what I've always been told, more or less, that I now question. It goes like this... because of the holocaust, European Jews (those that survived) needed a place to go so they fled to Palestine. The Arabs, filled with hatred, lashed out at Jewish refugees and war was unavoidable. That was how it was presented to me when I was a kid, anyway. But I don't buy it anymore. I don't think the world needs a Jewish state (or a Muslim state or a Christian state or a Hindu state et cetera). The nazis killed a whole lot of Gays along with Jews. Did they need a Gay state? Would it have been impossible for those refugees to find a home somewhere other than Palestine. Why is it that Jews and Arabs could not co-exist in Palestine after WWII without a Jewish state? They had before.

                I'm not an expert on the subject, don't claim to be. I know that Israel isn't going to go away. Honestly, while I think everybody (including Jews) would be better off if Israel had never been formed, now that it has been in place for nearly sixty years it has to stay. The only other alternative is... what? War? The destruction of a nation of six million people. A possible (even likely) nuclear exchange. Please, if you choose to continue this dialogue, please don't suggest that I wish that. Please.

                Rather, what I would like to see is for Jews and Palestinians as well as Arabs throughout the Middle East achieve a peaceful solution. That won't happen as long as the current regime(s) are in place. Jewish "Settlers" (is that better?) don't want it. Sharon doesn't want it. Christian zealots (what are they called now? Rapture Christians? Doomsday Christians?) don't want it, that I know for an absolute fact. Bush doesn't want it. They're never gonna give on Eastern Jerusalem, and that's a deal breaker in itself. So what does the US do? Get out of it. Completely. Denounce whats going on. Totally. Fuck the oil, whoever gets it is gonna sell it to us anyway. If not, we'll buy it from whoever they do sell it to. It'll find it's way to market one way or another. We talk honestly about what our government has done there in the past, renounce that bs and denounce the misdeeds of all governments in the region that deserve denouncing. That incudes Israel. No more "they're not as bad as the other guys" excuses. Then, maybe... just maybe, in my humble fucking opinion, things will get better. We keep on like we are now, very bad things will happen. Maybe soon.

                Or maybe I'm just completely wrong and your completely right.

                "I am not a crook" - The Honourable Richard M. Nixon

                by tricky dick on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 06:25:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  one other thing (none)
                No back peddling here buddy. Not in this life. Support for Israel lead directly to 911. Period.
                There were other factors, of course. It was a big web of international socio-economic-political shit. I didn't bother breaking it down in my original post. Guess I'm just lazy. But I stand by what I said. No US support for Israel and its policies, no 911. Its not a conspiracy theory, I'm not saying Israel had knowledge of what was going on before hand, although I have to say they've been a super big help in our struggle against Islamic radicals. That would be paranoid, right? I'm just going to stick good old fashioned common sense on this one. If we didn't support the arch-nemisis of the Bid Laden crowd, they would have no reason to attack us. I don't see them going after Switzerland.

                "I am not a crook" - The Honourable Richard M. Nixon

                by tricky dick on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 06:40:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  But the role of "Zionists"... (none)
      ...to the Christian Right...

      Is to spawn the anti-christ, play host to Armageddon, then convert or fry in hell forever. That right-wing Israelis and American Jews... Although very few of them in terms of votes... Play footsy with these madmen is madness.

      •  Madmen pretty much sums it up (none)
        I don't know much about National Socialism, wasn't there. I couldn't tell you how those people thought. But American Taliban I know all too well. They have this obsession with Israel, because it's God's chosen people, God's plan. I know it won't make sense to those of you who are on the outside looking in, because they always talk about America as the Nation of God. But that's just how their madness works. Kind of like when Hitler decided that the Japanese were aryan. When you put in the context of the historic persecution of Jews by Catholics and the Church, it's hard to see. Again, I wasn't there. But when you look at the movement of "Born-Again Christianity" from the 1970's onward, there is a definite solidarity between the jesus freaks and zionists. It has alot to do with rapture theology, but its also based on racism. They hate muslims like you couldn't understand. They want them all to die. Yeah, madmen, that pretty well sums it up.

        "I am not a crook" - The Honourable Richard M. Nixon

        by tricky dick on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:04:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Nazis... (none)
    It's funny I didn't pick up on an undercurrent of anti-semitism until you pointed it out, even though I am usually fairly sensitive to this, as my fathers family are jewish.  But just this morning while reading about Frist on the truthout.org site I was struck by the creeping facism, watching members of government being so blatant about creating a state religion.  It was this that made me think "Nazis!.  It seems to be happening here, it really does.  And they are in control.  If we don't see some progress in the 2006 and 2008 elections, we are fucked.  I'm serisouly looking into spending my old age in South America, maybe Uruguay.
  •  Outing Kerry's Jewish Family History (none)
    Was what made this crystal clear.
  •  Good overlooked diary on fascism... (none)
    A huge biblio...don't think it got much front page time

    http://azindy.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/8/172049/8631

    --Bush lied, 1000 died

    by indyjones48 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 04:04:02 PM PDT

  •  What I want to know (none)
    is what exactly do you propose to do? People are constantly saying "we've got to fight this", etc. What does that mean?
    •  What I'm already doing (none)
      Working my ass off to elect smart people, locally, state-wide and nationally.

      Fighting for more money for education.

      Arguing forcefully against the looming theocracy.

      Helping to protect the rights of all citizens  through protest and contact with people who influence the law and policy.

      Setting a good exanple for my kids.  Showng them that politics does matter.  And being involved in the community is an essential part of being a responsible citizen.

      •  Hmmm (none)
        I don't mean to be a heckler; I'm genuinely curious. During the election I volunteered more than I ever have in my life to help Kerry beat Bush (not because I adore Kerry but because I couldn't let Bush win....) My spouse is active in voting rights and our legislative district....I am just curious to know what other people are actually doing, the specifics. It seems we lack central organizing, and that is the sad part, as I can't help feeling our actions would be much more powerful if coordinated. And while you do what you do, do you feel it is working?
  •  Thank you! (none)
    You have enunciated quite clearly that which I have been feeling in my bones for some time now. You are absolutely correct in believing that this is a turning point in our history (and not just those of us in America). We are perched on a precipice of fear, inequity, and base hatred and we're one small step from falling. I am afraid!

    "We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders wont let them write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene" Col. Kurtz

    by green917 on Sun Apr 17, 2005 at 05:38:58 PM PDT

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