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From India Economic Times:
In a move that has significance for Indian professionals seeking to work in the US, the government has made a formal proposal to the WTO demanding that the yearly quota of H1B visas be increased to 1,95,000 from the current ceiling of 65,000.

By going through the WTO, India by-passes US congress as well as US immigration law, only the US executive branch has any power and they already want unlimited worker movement across borders.  Now US immigration policy can be seen as a "barrier to trade".

This is deadly for high paying tech jobs in the US and has implications for any job that cannot be offshore outsourced to be "insourced" instead.

India has used the H-1B VISA system to their comparative advantage as a method to move the US high tech jobs overseas, long term. Cheaper foreigners can come here, get established in the US system, obtain training (it takes about 3 years for an engineer on the job to really become skilled), and then return to their home country, establish offshore outsourcing consulting firms and have "inroads" into US companies to convince them to move the engineering and computer science jobs overseas.

H-1B is supposed to be for professional workers, minimum Bachelors degree, but a percentage of foreign H-1B workers credentials are forged.

An Indian Masters degree, the MSc., is equal to a US Bachelors degree (BS) in terms of education level (comes into to study in American universities as an accredited BS degree)..yet Americans with Masters degrees from America are being replaced with foreign engineers with inferior skills and education level...the reason is it's all about cheap wages and corporate control.

The corporation operating in the United States controls the H-1B VISA status, plus H-1Bs are paid 20% to 50% less than their US counterpart.

If a corporation doesn't like what the H-1B VISA holder is doing they can just fire them and thus that person has to return to their home country.

Hira & Hira, Outsoucing America is a very good overall reference on offshore outsourcing, abuse of the US VISA system, trade and it's ill effects on the middle class.

On edit: reference for H-1B fraud updated to congressional testimony and INS/American Consulate statistics.

Originally posted to Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 01:34 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Slander (3.81)
    I hold an H1-B.  I worked hard for my master's at Stanford.  I am one of the highest-paid employees at my American firm.  

    How dare you question my qualifications and motives?  My wife and I are proud to call America our home.  

    Or are immigrants welcome only when they are nannies and burger flippers?

    •  you're not in the majority (4.00)
      Please read the statistics and then comment.

      This isn't about denial of opportunity for
      exceptional engineers.

      by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 01:44:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You were still out of line Robert (3.00)
        Believe it or not, immigrants contribute a great deal to this society.  For fuck sake if it weren't for the Irish and Chinese immigrants, and all the others who moved here for a better life this country wouldn't be worth spit.

        Bottom line is this - unless you're 100% native american you've no right to tell others to stay out.  PERIOD!

        •  you are out of line (none)
          I want people to LOOK AT THIS from a labor
          economic viewpoint which it is.

          We're not talking about H-1B VISAs for Stanford
          MSEE grads or anything like that.

          You're out of line for not reading the dairy,
          reading the stats, reading the plan of Bush Corp. on unlimited workers which means "race to the bottom" for the middle class economically or any of the arguments and addressing them.

          by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:05:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've read the stats (none)
            and I've read thread after thread of the garbage folks post on this issue - and MOST of it slams immigrants as if they have zero right to come to this country in search of a better life.

            Like I said, unless you're 100% native american you've no right to tell someone to stay the hell out.  And that's the bottom line in most of these types of threads.  At least that's what they bring out in other comments.

            Frankly I think it's divisive and sick.  But that's just my humble opinion.

        •  Actually, (none)
          we do have a right to restrict others from coming to this country if they're foreign born and we exercise that right through our votes for executive and legislative candidates.

          So you think it's okay for convicted rapists to come to this country?

          You want illiterate alcoholics emigrating to this country?

          How about coke dealers?  Murderers?  Thieves?  People involved in organized crime?

          We've got plenty of our own whackos.  We don't need any other country's derelicts.

          Immigration control is a central front on all issues related to population control, resource scarcity and wage parity.  Oh, and terrorism too.  Also, I don't like seeing union organization undermined by mass influxes of cheap labor.  

          The diarist wasn't saying immigrants don't contribute to society, nor was he insulting the memory of those people who emigrated to this country and worked to build its infrastructure and urban communities.  He's talking specifically about abuse of H1-B visas, by both immigrants illegally gaining such visas through false credentials, and employers who seek to drive down wages through employment of foreign workers when there's an available supply of American workers capable of fulfilling the requirements of the job.

          I haven't checked out the statistical information referenced in the links yet, so I don't know how accurate the numbers are, but the mere assertion that unless you're a native american you have no right to encourage stable growth and solid infrastructure through border control by adopting more fair, efficient and diverse immigration policies is absurd.  

          Flag burnings occur on average 8 times a year. Is the time/$ cost of a constitutional amendment really worth anyone's tax dollars - even if they support it?

          by deep6 on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:59:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  And One Other Thing (none)
        Did it ever occur to you that many of the regulars here might - just MIGHT be immirgants or the children of immigrants?  Or (like me) married to someone who left their home behind to make a life here in the States?

        How could you be so cold as to post this stuff knowing this - or did it just not occur to you?

        •  probably the latter... (2.00)
          his post reeks of "MajorityWhiteMinded" syndrome.  It has a tendency to afflict some lefties as well.
        •  How could he be so cold.....??? (none)
          Ah, because it's a discussion forum for Democratic-minded people to discuss issues of political, cultural and socioeconomic importance - with the goal of getting more Democrats elected?

          Just a guess.

          Too bad you're so easily hurt and offended by the words of a diary.  

          Word to the wise: not every sentence you read on this site is going to be warm and fuzzy.  Stick with challenging the facts and analysis of the diary as you somewhat did below rather than accuse the writer of being a big meany!

          I know I'm living in a free country because I can offend people and not go to jail.  Everybody has issues they're sensitive about but geez.... that comment just sounds weak.

          Flag burnings occur on average 8 times a year. Is the time/$ cost of a constitutional amendment really worth anyone's tax dollars - even if they support it?

          by deep6 on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 03:13:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes (4.00)
      Our best programmer is here on an H1-B and it has been harder than hell to keep him.  We have one pay scale and one benefits package.

      I have worked with at least 100 H1-B employees in Pharma and they have a competency range equivalent to US scientists.  

      Meet me in Cognito, baby

      by out grrl on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:02:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not "all" H-1Bs (3.00)
        please read the stats.  I've worked with exceptional  H-1Bs, lived aboard and have seen incompetent H-1Bs.

        The issue here is the system is being abused
        for labor arbitrage, not to single out "one
        versus the other".

        This diary is not about denial of H-1B VISA
        generally as the original program was intended in any way shape or form.

        It does not say that.

        by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:07:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just (none)
          I am just agreeing with the original poster and pointing out my own experience.  Most of the labs we work in are over 50% H1-B.  Mostly chemists.  From all over the world.  I have not met a single person that intends to return to their home country.  Not one.  Last week we were joking about doing a vendor audit for a software company in Bangalore.  The IT director - who came over on an H1-B - got very serious and said "I worked much too hard getting out of India to go back".

          Meet me in Cognito, baby

          by out grrl on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:15:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  These H1Bs aren't supposed to be forever. (4.00)
            I'm glad to hear the holders you work with are applying for citizenship !  However, RobertOak is correct, the H1B visa program is being abused.  Look at the form 'requirements' at

            "A number of statutory requirements and authorities under the INA, as amended by the American Competitiveness and Workforce Improvement Act of 1998, sunset on October 1, 2003. The specific program changes that occurred included:
            A reduction in the cap on the number of available H-1B visas from 195,000 to 65,000 per fiscal year;
            The elimination of the Recruitment and Hiring and the Displacement and Secondary Displacement attestations that previously applied to "H-1B dependent" employers and to employers found to have committed a willful violation or misrepresentation of a material fact on the application;
            The elimination of authority granted to DOL to investigate H-1B employers if they have "specific, credible evidence" that a violation has occurred; and
            The elimination of the $1,000 fee that is required to be paid by employers of H-1B nonimmigrants to support low-income scholarships and job training programs for workers.
            The recruitment and displacement attestations noted above, and the instructions relating to them, were previously outlined in Subsections 1 and 2 of Section F. Due to the possibility that these attestations may be reenacted by the Congress, the Department has temporarily blanked out these portions of the application and instructions.

            The previous edition of this application form, displaying an OMB Expiration Date in the upper-right-hand corner of 31 AUG 2003, should no longer be submitted by employers seeking to hire H-1B nonimmigrants"


            Reading this proves that  (1) US workers can be displaced despite what the DOL claims, (2) that companies 'globalizing' and using H1B hirees here illegally will NOT be prosecuted or fined, and (3) the Office of Inspector General at DOL is prohibited from investigating companies and individuals who do use the visa sytem fraudulently.

            Techlawjournal wrote an article LONG ago mentioning fraud in the system.  It has gotten worse.  


            The visa is only supposed to be used when US workers aren't available, not to DISPLACE US workers and to keep wages low in order to further Bush administration policy of promoting outsourcing of jobs, whether abroad or at home.  I take it that H1B workers aren't paid what regular wages would be, which is why I favor those on H1Bs' that expire apply IMMEDIATELY for US citizenship.  BTW, a favorable view of the US is required for obtaining citizenship.  They will thank me even more since I am supporting a Living Wage law for ALL workers in the US.

    •  That's my big problem... (4.00)
      ...with the whole immigration discussion. People feel they have a right to hold ignorant and often wrong opinions on the matter, and that they should not be held responsible for the ugly consequences of their foolish race- and ethnic-baiting approach. And they get all testy and whiny when we point such things out.

      So I very much applaud your calling bullshit on the diarist. I wish more would do the same.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:12:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Have you applied for citizenship ? (4.00)
      If not, your H1B expires when ?  I'd be more concerned about US making demands, like India's to the WTO, for redress with outsourcing of jobs.  This is a bit ludicrous of India, after all.  Jobs in the US aren't a 'right'.  Foreigners in any country are guests unless they apply formally for citizenship.
  •  SOVERIGNTY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (4.00)

    Where are conservatives when you need them?

    Why the hell do we stand by and let WTO, etc. take away our SOVERIGNTY as a nation-- excuse me, but we have a right to decide for ourselves how many visas to issue through our legislative process.  WTO should not be able to dictate.

    Today, visas, tomorrow, that chemical plant your local zoning board said couldn't be built by the school.

    Bush will be impeached.

    by jgkojak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 01:38:59 PM PDT

  •  Here We Go (3.20)
    I can see the discussion taking a nasty turn - it always does on these H-1B visa threads... It's bash the immigrant time!

    I'm sorry but I thought this site was above all that.  As the wife of an immigrant I'm deeply offended when so-called progressives use this as a wedge issue.  The economy here sucks so we blame the immigrants who take advantage of the way our immigrations laws are set up.

    It's not their fault - it's the fault of our politicians who support corporate practices that abuse and degrade ALL workers.  They're the ones we should be going after - not the workers!

    You have one good point - we need to find a way to keep employers from taking advantage of these workers.  It's dead-wrong when they use that visa as a tool in their attempt to victimize and hold hostage these workers.

    •  look, read the stats (none)
      I am a bleeding heart liberal and enjoy international engineering teams, where truly
      it's the cream of the crop. Gee wiz, if you check out the race of many of the people working on this issue you find an international community reporting on it from Academia!

      Because so many "knee jerk" reactions, not even reading any study with the race card retort, this technique to reduce the power of labor goes under the radar and it has much more to do with labor economics, labor arbitrage and a global weaking of workers rights and an erosion of the middle class on a global scale.

      Now supposedly people think here and there is a high percentage of advanced degrees also, which I hope would lend to examination of the facts.

      Please read the statistics and studies and realize this has absolutely nothing to do with race and everything to do with labor economics and globalization.

      by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:02:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Same Sh*t Different Discussion Board (2.50)
        Robert I've been reading your stuff since nearly day one over on Kerry's discussion board during the election campaign.  You'd flood the discussion with one thread after another on this subject - in a rather obnoxious way I might add.

        You've nothing new to add to this dispite your claim that you're not being anti-immigrant.  I don't care how you cloak it now - I've seen what you've had to say on this subject and I'm deeply offended.  Not to mention disappointed that you're not trashing this site with these types of threads.

        •  For Any TUs Out There (none)
          THis guy had the habit of posting this stuff on any and all discussion threads over on John Kerry's discussion board during the campaign.  Didn't matter what the subject of the thread - he'd post something re H-1Bs and demand that we all get involved in some other thread he'd started.

          It was very divisive and caused more than a few problems.

          •  BS (none)
            You're not being a troll and to add to that
            it was the Kerry campaign that told me to
            start an organization.

            There were no problems on the Kerry board
            or Kerry campaign.

            I'm giving you a zero for this obvious personal attack.  


            by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:29:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm Just Passing Along My Observations (none)
              You were constantly flooding unrelated threads with posts demanding that we see your anti-visa posts.  It got to the point where we could no longer carry on a discussion of other issues.

              Frankly, I doubt the campaign staff would have even noticed you enough to tell you to set up a swing set much less an organization.  If they did then my guess is that it was their way of getting you off their back.

              I can't do anything about your giving me a troll rating - that's up to you.

              Not my fault if you can't handle the truth.

    •  Bull. (4.00)
      As I detailed in a diary today, people come from two irreconcilable positions.

      They either believe the immigration is an issue of government sovereignty and benefit to society, or that it is a fundamental human right.

      I am firmly in the former camp, and the statistics do show that H1Bs are used to save money by employers, which drives down wages, which drives citizens to other professions, which increases demand.

      There are some cases where you simply cannot find a qualified American, but it's not 195 thousand, and it's not 65 thousand.

      Most people in computer programming leave the field around age 40 because no one will hire them.

      My solution is straightforward:  Raise the H1b, and L1 fees high enough that employers pay a premium, and then we will see it done only in cases of real need.

      FWIW, I'm not surprised.  Tata group is probably driving this, and they treat their guys like crap.

      It could be worse. I could still be living in Texas.

      by msaroff on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:06:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  HB-1 (4.00)
      I recall that the visa numbers went up in the late 1990's when there was an unemployment of 2% in the high tech industry.  After the dot com bubble burst and the unemployment numbers went through the rough, the numbers were lowered to 65,000 ( I think, I am not sure ).  Where is the need now?  Stop screaming racist, etc. and just look at the numbers.  Do we need to shop abroad?  I don't care who is an immigrant in this issue, that is not the point.  I am a nurse and I know that the hospitals scream shortage and want to hire from abroad.  Great, but its not about shortages as much as the ability to treat us as disposable tissues and keep our wages low.
      •  Chemists (none)
        Pharma hires a lot of foreign scientists.  It is hard getting American students to major in Chemistry or other "hard" sciences because, well, the coursework is hard and the pay is not so great.  

        Meet me in Cognito, baby

        by out grrl on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:19:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  RE: Chemists (none)
          Pharma hires a lot of foreign scientists ... because, well, the coursework is hard and the pay is not so great

          Great solution. Don't raise the pay, or provide any external incentives so as to make the hard coursework worthwhile to the student. Simply adjust the supply of labor, thereby perverting the law of supply and demand.

          The offshore abritraging of labor for the case of those jobs which can be offshored, and the inshoring of cheap labor for those jobs which cannot be offshored has really worked out well so far.

          If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 03:16:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Qualify (none)
            I should qualify my statement.  When I say that the pay is "not so great", I mean that it is still better than the majority of jobs, but not equivalent to what the same people could make if they chose careers in finance.  The reality is that it takes a certain degree of intelligence to get a chemistry degree and people with that level of intelligence can make more money majoring in finance.  It is the difference between starting at 40K and 70K.  Not bad in either case, but still very different.

            Pay for scientists was lagging before H1-B visas became an issure.  Lab jobs are cool. You make good money.  You get to wear blue jeans.  You get to set stuff on fire.  But American students, generally, are more interested in huge paydays.

            Meet me in Cognito, baby

            by out grrl on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 07:56:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  yuppers, thank you n/t (none)

        by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:28:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I don't blame the people with the visas (4.00)
      No, I blame the people who continue to hand them out as part of a multi-pronged strategy that has kept middle class wages stagnant for thirty years.

      The law states that H-1B workers are supposed to be paid the same as already-resident US workers, but obviously they are frequently not, and the overall effect of adding to the labor supply is to lower wages (salaries) for everyone. The H-1B program should be tied to continually rising pay in the class of workers that they are supplementing, and if pay becomes stagnant, the program should be automatically curtailed- no new visas but existing ones are renewed.

      I have no problem with welcoming qualified workers from other countries who hope to make the US their permanent home, as long as there are real shortages in their wage category.

      Pipe dreams are not an exit strategy.

      by TrainWreck on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:16:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  RE: Here We Go (4.00)
      It's not their fault - it's the fault of our politicians who support corporate practices that abuse and degrade ALL workers.  They're the ones we should be going after - not the workers!

      You basically are echoing what tiggers thotful spot says above.

      Wouldn't it be better to organize labor and demand a bigger share of the pie? Or do something about corporate behavior?

      This type of reply begs the question, what would you do? One obvious solution is to raise the minimum wage. But, even if we could raise the minimum wage tomorrow, it would not solve the problem, as I see it. The unions in this country have lost power for many reasons, but one of the immutable reasons for the union's loss of bargaining power is that the supply of labor in this country is no longer relatively fixed. As long as cheaper labor can be brought into this country on demand, ala the Tyson case, or the job can be offshored to a destination where unit labor costs are a fraction of what they are here, any threat by labor to 'organize' rings hollow.

      I would very much like to hear your thoughts as to what you would do to change corporate practices. How would you, Alegre, or for that matter how would you tigger change corporate practices such that the corporations would not be able to simply adjust the labor supply so as to subvert any changes that you make.

      In short, the only way that I can see clear to demanding a bigger share of the pie, is to be in that position where you can in fact demand a bigger share of the pie. As long as corporations, and by extension the government, can control the supply of labor in this country, I as a worker am in no position to demand anything.

      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 03:55:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you're demanding the gubmint do something (none)
        there are lots of things that can be done.

        First of all you can demand that they enforce existing labor and pass the Employee Free Choice Act. Labor law is routinely violated in the USA! The right to form a union is a fundamental human right that is specifically covered by conventions of the United Nations (to which the United States is a non-ratifying signatory... so you could advocate for the ratification of the UN CESCR.  There need to be STIFF penalties for violating labor law, not just slaps on the wrist. I suggested a while back a version of "three strikes you're out" for corporations that violate labor laws: double the fine for each successive violation. After 15 such violations you turn a fifty thousand dollar fine into nearly a billion dollar fine. That will make the law serious. (Of course anyone proposing that law would get assassinated, but you get the point.)

        Another avenue is to change corporate tax law and trade law to protect workers rights around the world and eliminate tax advantages to outsourcing jobs.

        The problem with blaming immigrants is it too easily plays into the hands of racists. Racism is the card that is always played by demagogues during an era of diminishing expectations, and thanks to corporatists running the USA for the last 35 years, we live in an era of diminished expectations. We are all immigrants here, or their descendents. There is enough pie to go around if it wasn't being hogged by the fatcat investors and CEO class, who have engorged most of the economic benefits of the past couple of decades.

        •  this is not a racist diary (none)
          that's the point, it's labor arbitrage to reduce
          overall labor power.  

          That is the main point and so sorely missed
          on here by so many.  

          by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 05:41:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Whether or not the diary is racist (none)
            it plays into the hands of racists to blame all the problems on workers rather than management, who are the ones taking home most of the gains from all of this.

            Whether or not the number of VISAs is limited, workers are still going to get screwed by corporations. That's our system. If you limit the VISAs, more jobs will be outsourced. Guaranteed.

            •  well, trying to get the issue presented correctly (none)
              Feel free to post a diary or suggest a presentation
              to get the issue raised that unlimited workers
              movement across national boundaries is going to
              cause on a massive global scale economic disaster
              for all workers trying to have a reasonable middle class quality of life.

              I truly try to present this issue with as many
              studies and facts as possible and get the "race card", blame workers for the problem, when
              it is's multinational corporations and
              the "Buy America" agenda of our elected representatives (note the play on buy American there).

              Maybe they do not realize that the H-1B is supposed
              to be for experts who cannot be found in the United


              by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 06:01:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Bull (2.00)
            You constantly refer to "foreigners" as if it's a dirty word.

            I find that extremely racist as would any decent and thinking individual.

            Shame on you.

            •  you've really got some issues Alegre (none)
              There is nothing in this diary that implies
              racism, foreigner which is a benign term, as anything except "not a US citizen" and so on.

              At this point, you've really got a problem
              and many have commented to me offline about

              I will in future make sure your disruptions on discussion of these sorts of
              issues is more adequately reported and monitored.


              by Robert Oak on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 12:16:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Give me a break. (2.50)
                The only problem I have is the tone you've taken in your initial post and in the others I've seen on other boards.  You come off as a racist when it comes to "foreigners".  Period.

                Go ahead and report me - I'm just speaking my mind like the many other members of this community.  I'm sorry if you can't handle it.

                •  Oh My GOD! (none)
                  You don't even reply any more - you just rate people as trolls if they dare disagree with you.

                  How dare you decide whether someone else is offended by your posts?  I happen to think you come off as racist - how dare you decide that's a personal attack?  Believe it or not - it's not up to you to decide how others perceive your posts.

                  You're so wrapped up in your crusade against immigrant workers that you can't even see how others might take your words as bigoted.

                  Go ahead and rate me as a troll again - but this time I'm contacting the TUs to complain.  I'm not the only one who's noted your free use of the zeros here.

  •  The AEHR link (4.00)
    As a professor, I can say that the author of the AEHR link knows nothing about how the majority of academia works.  There may be reasons to change the structure of H1B's, but AEHR's diatribe should not be the source.

    Then again, in W's America, fitting facts to your prejudices is what passes as science, so the report fits right in.

    •  u better put that post to the Academics who (4.00)
      are writing the studies.

      Since Ron Hira is of Indian descent, plus an
      extremely ethical and detailed researcher,
      I don't think he will be so amused.

      by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:10:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fact check (none)
    You might want to re-read the SJ Mercury News article that you link to.

    Dated 9/17/2003, it states "In October, Congress raised the limit on the number of H-1Bs  available each year to 195,000 for the next three years."

    It seems Congress does control the visa system, and they made this change almost 2 years ago.  I seriously doubt that the US will give up control over its immigration to the WTO or any other international group. Really, with all the terrorism/security concerns these days, it seems very unlikely.

    Finally, if the H-1B workers are so overwhelmingly under-eduated and under-skilled, why would companies keep hiring them? Pay them less in exchange for sloppy work? Or is their skill level sufficient for the work they do?

    •  combo (none)
      It's a combo.  On QA black box testing, it doesn't
      take that much skill.  Then on some programming langauges, truly you do not need "5 years" of
      experience to do the job. (huge difference between javascript and kernel development) But, there is also a problem with quality and then horrors of horrors, often American engineers are required to train their replacements (knowledge transfer) for up to 9 months before losing their own job.

      But, there is also "control" and something else going on.

      I honestly think truly high quality engineering is being undervalued right now.  Accountants and bean counters are just looking at salaries
      versus results.

      That 195k increase was defeated in 2003, the reference is for phony degrees and what not.

      But, the movement to put unlimited worker VISAs in GATS, part of the WTO agreement is very real.  

      This 195k is a new one, India just did this, 2005.

      by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:16:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Now you're conflating (none)
        L visas with H visas.

        There is no way a company would bring someone here on an H visa for training. Not only would it be too expensive, but they probably would take their US training and go to another US company.

        You raise SOME good and valid points here. But those points are drowning in a morass of misrepresentation, crummy sourcing, and exaggeration. Which does no one in this debate any good.

        This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

        by emptywheel on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:25:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  retraining on H-1B (none)
          Yes, L-1 is common but it also goes on with H-1B.

          Not confusing the issues.  Have one questionable
          reference not related to what the issue is talking about, but please again, read the Hira

          I made a point to list it for it's a published
          text and every reference has been thoroughly
          checked out.

          by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:34:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  See below (2.00)
            I did read it. If I were grading it, I might give it a C if I had already had two cocktails before opening it up. It's incredibly poorly sourced and poorly argued.

            This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

            by emptywheel on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:41:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  It doesn't help (2.00)
    That your links don't support your argument.

    For example, your link that supposedly proves that a "large percentage" of H1B holders had forged credentials says instead that there were problems with the applications with about 14% of the applicants in recent years (20% before that); but for half of these the problem was the promised job didn't exist. Which means the H1B holder will get to the US and have to find a job on the fly, which isn't that easy to do (and as someone whose bro-in-law has had to live off of savings for 3 months while his H1B was transferred, getting your paperwork transferred, even in these days of accelerated transfer, still takes a lot of time).

    And your second part of that argument links to an obviously problematic article asserting that the vast majority of people who make it to US grad schools get by on cheating, getting other foreign TAs to give them the answers. Not to mention the incredible number of 99% foreign students in a program--where? Show me? I went to U Michigan, where, before 9/11, the Engineering school was 60% foreign (it's WAY lower now). But these were for Masters positions, few of which got TAs. And they worked their ass off. This article is ridiculous, and even if it were totally true, would be out of date now that universities can't attract foreign students.

    It is true that H1B holders are often paid less than their colleagues (although improved transfer times has diminished those numbers). Address this issue, and you eliminate the reason SOME people are still hiring H1Bs when they really COULD find Americans to take the job.

    This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

    by emptywheel on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:15:09 PM PDT

    •  well, do the Hira stuff, golden references (none)
      He really checks out his source.

      I was looking around for the refences on forged documents (it is true) and possibly pulled and "bad" reference.  Sorry.

      I thought I saw 60% credentials forged, but I said that has to be way too high in terms of forged that was lower and I used it for that reference.  I didn't read the rest of it.
      I think you're right Universities are about 60% foreigners...I have heard of PHD programs being a huge percentage but 99%?  That's news to me.

      That's a whole other kettle of fish undergrad/grad level education opportunities, to me
      has much more to do with lack of funding for Americans, school is too damn expensive, but in terms or denial of education to foreigners?  

      This diary is not implying that at all.

      by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:24:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I AM looking at your piece on universities (2.00)
        It was sourced, for the most part, using pop magazines, right wing magazines, and anti-immigrant groups. Not what I'd call credible.

        Further, it's argued terribly. Here's an example:

        At the University of Illinois at Chicago (in the Department of Computer Science graduate program) there are approximately 225 graduate students in the Department of Computer Science. Over the past several years 99% of these students have been international students (the overwhelming majority are from India and China). As a result, almost all of the financial awards have been given to international students.

        I'm a little skeptical that 99% of students in ANY program are foreign born, unless it's an ESL program. But even if we pretend for a moment this is real, then we have to ask is this reality in OTHER programs? Um, no. Nevertheless, he uses it to stand-in for university programs as a whole, to suggest that ALL technical programs are ALL this dominated by international students.

        I shouldn't be surprised you accept this as good argument. Even from one post to another, you don't seem to be able to keep your facts straight. I said that 60% of ONE PROGRAM at UM was international. You then took that as valid for ALL programs, didn't seem to miss that you were taking the part for the whole.

        Really, do yourself a favor, if you're passionate about this issue, go take a basic Composition course (I bet you could even find one taught by an international student!). Learn about how to construct a reasonably good argument. Learn to tell the difference between a worthwhile source and a shitty one. If you really believe in this issue, you'd be able to straighten your own thinking out and make a much stronger (albeit tempered) argument.

        This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

        by emptywheel on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:38:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you can focus on this all you want (2.00)
          The reality is India is trying to move
          unlimited worker VISAS into the WTO
          and the US congress will have no control
          over it's immigration policy.

          I clearly have enough savvy to see someone
          attacking the credibility of the author
          versus addressing the message, which you are
          doing, hence you get a "1" for this activity.

          by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:43:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Okay, LETS look at that piece (4.00)
            Because you have failed to read that carefully either.

            Explain to me what these paragraphs mean:

            In the ongoing WTO talks, India has made enhancement of the H1B quota as a key bargaining chip for offering concessions on market access for industrial products and farm goods, highly-placed government officials said.

            Even if the US partly concedes the Indian demand, it will be a big step forward in liberalisation of norms governing movement of natural persons -- as work permits are called in WTO parlance.

            They mean two things. First, this is a bargaining point for greater trade concession on the part of India. When the article says, "WTO," it means it is presenting this as part of a a WTO negotiation. But there, lo and behold, on the first page of the article you're so anxious to talk about, it admits that the US is the one who gets to decide on the Indian demand. You don't even get off the first page before your central contention--that the WTO will have sovereignty over the US on this is (they do on others, but not this)--falls apart.

            Maybe while you're taking that Comp course you might enroll in some reading courses as well.

            This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

            by emptywheel on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:52:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Robert Oak (none)
          would you please stop 0 rating people who disagree with you in an intelligent way? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's not winning any people over to your side.
          •  i'm not the only one saying he is a troll (none)
            He has made a point to spam this diary,
            said blatant lies about me personally
            and also "troll rated" me without any intellectual
            merit or debate.

            I believe that enables me to troll rate in response.


            by Robert Oak on Thu Jun 30, 2005 at 08:25:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  195,000 is the limit for all nations. (4.00)
    The India Times article says India is asking to increase the limit to allow 195,000 from India alone.

    I honestly do not have a firm stance one way or another on this.

    However, I do have a neighbor who is Canadian, working in the US on an H1-B visa.  If he could vote, he'd be a Democrat and support us.  However, while his company renews his H1-B every year, they have laid off longer term U.S. citizen employees who were doing the same job he's doing now. So, why is it that they need this particular employee on visa? They do not.

    In this particular case, I'd say the system is being abused. But there's nothing you can do about it. That's simply how a particular company has decided to treat their employees.  At the same time, I don't give that company any business when I can avoid it. They should have kept an American employee and laid off the foreign worker, if they had economic reasons for cutting back.  

    •  Disagree (none)
      I respectfully disagree.  Our policy is to keep the better employee.  We regularly release US citizens and keep our best H1-B folks.  We are in the business of providing the best possible service to our customers, not subsidizing lesser employees.  IMO, we should be encouraging the best foreign workers to stay here.

      Meet me in Cognito, baby

      by out grrl on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 02:29:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  in this case..... (none)
        If it was a choice between the "better" employee and a "lesser" US citizen employee, ok.  But, when a few dozen of the same job are let go, and the few remaining include a foreigner, I do not find that justifiable. Is he really the best employee in the whole department?  Well, from neighborly actions, it wouldn't appear he has good service oriented talents.  I'm just talking about this one case, which I think is a grossly unfair case. (And also, I'm tired of him bitching about living here.)

        Overall, I would agree with you up to a point. But I wouldn't import foreign workers when there is an adequate supply of highly skilled workers existing and not being used.

  •  So, let me get this straight (none)
    the problem is that corporations treat people like shit, but the solution is to keep out foreigners?

    Wouldn't it be better to organize labor and demand a bigger share of the pie? Or do something about corporate behavior?

    It seems to me that unless you're a member of the Navajo or one of the other tribes, you've got no right to complain about immigrants...

  •  bunch of crap (4.00)
    Its outrageous to claim that a large percentage of foreign H-1B workers credentials are forged. There will always be some bad apples but saying "large percentage" are forged is bunch of crap. The education system in asian countries like India, China, South Korea is very good and that's why they have such a huge talent pool. The real problem is the american schools, which are going down the drain due to lack of money and resources. While asian schools are becoming outstanding, the american schools are introducing "creationism" and cutting funding! And on the contrary you are talking about the quality of education that foreigners have.

    Its also ridiculous to make blanket statements like, 'Americans with Masters degrees from America are being replaced with foreign engineers with inferior skills and education level'. The H1 visas are processed by the Dept of Homeland Security and if they are approving so many  fraudulent cases as you are claiming then the problem lies with inability of the Homeland Security workers to do their jobs properly. May be these America educated American workers at Dept of Homeland Security need to be replaced by H1 workers to fix these

    By the way, how common is to find an American with a Masters degree?? How many Americans that you meet in your daily lives have Masters degree?

    •  sigh (none)
      read the stats, it is true, verified and has even been presented in testimony before congress.

      Almost every American I know has a Masters degree or a PHD.  That is because
      we are in engineering.  We also work in an international and academic setting.  

      And BTW:  you are discrediting a US BS degree.
      Just because most MScs are equal to a US BS..
      that ain't chicken feed.  That is a highly trained engineer when examining top tier US engineering schools, which there is one Indian university that is actually superior to MIT.

      But, still to this day, US engineering schools
      are considered the best in the world.  

      But there is no way a Msc is superior or even equal to a US MSEE from a top tier engineering school and this is happening in the United States.  Top Tier Masters and PHD degreed engineers are having increasingly higher unemployment rates and displacement.

      I'm noticing a pattern here.

      Posters who are from high tech knows this is a real problem and comment are accurate and generally positive or having minor reasonable discussion points, yet attorneys interested in making $$ processing VISAs are troll rating the post or people who truly aren't that educated on this issue are also reacting with troll posts
      and "outrage".  

      I'd love to see the day when this issue is actually rationally examined on the statistics
      and labor economics.

      by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 03:03:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  crap (none)
        Once again you are make some ridiculous blanket statements. I am neither an attorney nor a uneducated person on this issue.

        Your diary paints a picture that vast majority of the H1 visa holders have some inferior Masters degree from foreign countries. What do you know about the Masters programs from foreign countries? You are writing as if you have gone to India, China and have extensively studied how the MSc program is conducted in various Indian, Chinese universities.

        You are definitely unique when you say that, "Almost every American I know has a Masters degree or a PHD." The reason I asked that question was very few Americans go for graduate studies. The technical dept that I work in has almost 50 americans and only one has a Masters degree. I am not discrediting a US BS degree infact you are the one who is discrediting foreign degree by generalizing without any basis. Do you have any numbers on how many H1 visa holders have a Masters degree from US universities and how many have Masters degree from foreign countries?

        •  guess what I did (none)
          I lived abroad and studied in the European MSc/PhD programme and yes please check with ABET accreditation for international accreditation.
          I just happen to know this from
          my professional positions, yes.
          I am very aware the European, Indian and Chinese  MSc is NOT EQUAL to a US MSEE.  

          Please check the edit of the diary.  I updated
          the fraud references to congressional testimony
          and American consulate reports.

          The H-1B US MSEE holders have 20k VISAs for them
          exclusively.  This was recently passed in congress.

          by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 04:02:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  slander (none)
            Why are you comparing MSc with MSEE? You need to compare MSEE with MTech or ME. The European, Indian and Chinese universities do have Masters in Engineering too. To get H1 visa the candidate needs to have either a Masters degree or a Bachelors degree and equivalent work experience of masters degree. If your objection is about people with MSc degree getting H1 visas then go and lobby US govt to change the H1 law instead of blaming foreign workers and their education.

            Since you have a European MSc degree, based on your logic are you saying that your education was inferior? In that case you took a job away from an American with MSEE degree.

            Overall, no one is saying that there are absolutely no cases of fraud with H1 visas. There must be some but they are not the vast majority as your diary implies. What you are doing is slandering the foreigners and foreign education system.

            •  you're just picking a fight (none)
              with no logic.

              This diary fortunately is read by many who
              read the facts.

              No, the European, Indian and Chinese programmes
              go university, first degree, MSc which is called a "Masters" then move on to a intermediate degree
              which is a higher level of education than a US Masters, but not equal to a US Phd and finally their systems advance to a PhD,
              which at that point you are given credibility
              partly on your advisor and school and primarily
              on your research....basically PhDs world wide
              are in essence equal as a rule of thumb.

              Again, these systems Masters degrees are accredited by ABET and equivalent to US Bachelors

              No one is "blaming" foreigners in this diary,
              despite whatever "frothy" motivation your posts
              are trying to imply.

              I'm sorry but education accreditation is what
              it is.  There is no "slander" in stating
              replacing a US MSEE with a MSc is replacing someone with inferior educational level.

              That has nothing to do with the quality of
              education world wide.  The situation is simply
              different university level educational systems.

              A BSc in England is considered "trade school"
              or akin to a US associates degree.  

              They are simply different systems and by ABET
              accreditation standards, replacing a US MS
              with a MSc is inferior educational level.


              by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 04:41:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  RE: slander (none)
              To get H1 visa the candidate needs to have either a Masters degree or a Bachelors degree and equivalent work experience of masters degree



              What is a specialty occupation?

              A specialty occupation requires theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge along with at least a bachelors degree or its equivalent.

              There is no definition of what 'equivalent' means.

              Now, you can either believe me, or I can go through the motions to provide you with links which prove that the DOL has certified LCA's which define Red Lobster restaurant managers, tax preparers, and latino community service managers as 'specialty occupations'. These incidents were brought to the attention of the DOL. The DOL did nothing.

              You can also either believe me, or I can again go through the motions which prove that the DOL has certified LCA's for 'programmers' at 5.25/hr.

              What you are doing is slandering the foreigners and foreign education system

              So then, I would guess that I if I told you that I felt that the H1B/L1 visa system and the government's current apathy towards illegal immigration were nothing but a cheap labor scam from front to back, that would make me a racist too?

              If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 04:53:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  RE: slander (none)
                I was mainly referring to the H1 visas processed for technical jobs.

                You could be right about the Dept of Homeland Security issuing H1 visas to Red Lobster restaurant managers, tax preparers, and latino community service managers as 'specialty occupations'. I am not doubting it. This is happening either because these applicants fit the requirements of H1 laws or Dept of Homeland Security is abusing the law. So the problem clearly is not the foreign workers but either the H1 law or abuses by Corporations or Dept of Homeland Security (which is not what was implied in the original diary).

  •  Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice (3.33)
    The person (who shall remain nameless) who started this thread is going around rating anyone who dares to disagree with them as a TROLL.

    So this is how these discussions go eh?

    Sounds like the Bush Administration - anyone who disagrees with them is rated as unpatriotic?

    What's next - are we gonna have to sign a LOYALTY OATH to participate in these visa threads???

    Only the loyal need comment?

  •  I searched long and hard (4.00)
    to get a qualified research associate for my lab before employing a Ph.D. electrical engineer from India on a H1-B visa. I pay him 2.5 times the average pay a research associate of his qualification gets in Texas, just to keep him in my lab. The only reason he sticks around in this low-paying academic job is because he is interested in the research. There are too few Americans getting doctorates in engineering and applied physics. My colleagues in life sciences, on the other hand, have no problem finding qualified Americans. If Washington payed any attention to the problems with higher education, especially in quantitative fields like engineering, we wouldn't have GE moving all its research work to Bangalore.

    There was a scary article in Science a few months back that said many Chinese and Indian grad students are now returning to their countries after getting their PhD's in the US. We train these people and lose them. If this trend also continues, we will have to move all our engineering departments to China.

    •  very good points (none)
      This diary is about labor arbitrage at the BS (or less), MS level.

      I think most activists and I know the IEEE-USA believe that PhD level foreigners should be encouraged to live and work in the United States
      and should have access to H-1B VISAs.

      The educational issue, especially graduate
      stipends for RA/TA are low in EE/CE in comparison to the life sciences.  I could obtain a PhD
      in Oceanography and get a 40k plus fellowship,
      yet to do a PHD in EE, odds are a 14k stipend
      with a heavy workload.

      Since the length of study to obtain a PhD has
      increased dramatically, it's near impossible to
      survive on 14k, half time stipend of 7-8k and so forth for a US graduate student.

      Please don't move Academia R&D abroad (yes I know MIT has set up labs), instead lobby congress to
      increase funding for graduate studies, post doc
      salaries and the like.

      by Robert Oak on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 03:54:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There is a reason fewer Americans (4.00)
      are getting tech degrees. It's really hard work getting the degree, and a lot of the jobs really SUCK. There are too many Enron accountants running companies, too much short-term thinking, too much trying to game the venture capital system or the NASDAQ. Then they dump you whenever they feel like, in order to enhance the bottom line, with your contributions locked away in the "corporate memory" or the "intellectual property."

      Why is "Dilbert" so popular among techies? It's the same freakin' comic strip repeated over and over for year after whiny year, decade after whiny decade. It's like "Family Circus" for nerds! It's popular because of the deep cynicism widely held by technology workers in corporate America, and that cynicism is the product of years of working in their cubicle farms being treated like a powerless cog.

      I worked for a company which paid its CEO 150 million dollars in salary and stock while the company's slash and burn tactics ruined its reputation among its customers, and poor technical saavy of "professional management" resulted in the products falling behind its competitors. Eventually most of my coworkers were pink-slipped right before Christmas, and their jobs outsourced. Nobody in management or on the board of directors lost their job. Instead their stock grants got repriced and their salaries raised to account for the fact that their prior stock grants were worthless. That's how a lot of technology companies work.

  •  Shit happens.Deal with it. (none)
     The thing that gets me is its our corporations,its our lobbyists, but ire is mostly directed at the third world&its masses.Sometimes i wonder if the pain of outsourcing might have been a little bit less if the country was,lets say,in western europe&developing.
      Generally,if its people in a poor country working in nike sweatshops for a few cents/hour, we make the right noises about the working conditions,but not too concerned about it.When its about white collar jobs moving out,shit hits the fan.
        My contract was abruptly cut twice when the whole department was outsourced.Moved on to the next gig.If things really go downhill in the future, i'll probably just start a small business.I try to keep in mind that if my country had been third world, I would have liked to see my country petition the WTO. If I had been born in the third world & educated, I would have  tried to look for legal ways to better prospects abroad. If i had zero schooling, had to take care of my family and it wasnt possible where i was, i am SURE i would have sneaked a border,jumped a ship,hitched a ride on the back of a truck.wont you?
      It never fails to surprise me, the veiled prejudices i have seen innumerable times in supposedly liberal coworkers.And quality? cut the shit out.Been long enough in this industry to know otherwise.
  •  global economy (none)
    I just came across this article about
    how India is helping create jobs in the US and other countries. Its bit unrelated but it shows how global economy helps both sides!
    •  It's happening all over the world (none)
      My mom just sent me this op-ed from the NYT today re Ireland and it's success in globalizing their economy... 0708800&emc=eta1&pagewanted=print
      •  thanks (none)
        Thanks for the link. Not many would have thought of Ireland as the second richest country in the European Union. As the article indicates it did not happen because of some fluke but it happened because of govt policies, good education system, globalization and vast talent pool.
        •  Ireland (2.50)
          Their education system is tops - bar none.  It makes our look like something out of the dark ages.

          My husband's from Ireland and I'm seriously giving some thought to moving there when the kids are older.  If you do well enough at the high school level you go to university for free.

          •  Gonna ask... (none)
            cause I'm utterly clueless and probably missed something.

            But why did this post get trolled?

            "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

            by kredwyn on Thu Jun 30, 2005 at 05:48:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Someone's Become Obsessed (none)
              with handing me troll ratings on this thread.  I'm not really sure who it is as I don't look at all of them - the author of the initial post and a handful of others.

              Sad really.

              I'm not the only one to have commented on the bigoted bent to some of the posts here - anti-immigrant comments usually include words like "foreigners" or refer to non-European immigrants (Chinese or Indian).  Many have been rated as trolls for pointing that out.

              Dare I do it (??) and ask one simple question...

              Why don't we see outrage over European immigrants?  Granted, there aren't as many but they're here.

              Is it because they're not going after specific jobs?  Jobs that those posting anti-immigrant comments might want to go after?

              Makes you wonder if this really is a progressive discussion board.

              From where I sit - unless you're 100% Native American, you've no right to complain about others coming to America to find a better life.  By far, most of us are here because our ancestors moved to the States.  I and several others have  rasied this point several times in this thread but nobody's bothered to respond to this point.

          •  I lived in Ireland for a while (none)
            the people I lived with looked utterly blank when I mentioned Darwin and that Theory of Evolution.

            Yes, Irish schools are pretty okay. But that Catholic separate spheres education has a few gaps in it.

            "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

            by kredwyn on Thu Jun 30, 2005 at 05:49:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Depends on What Schools They Went To (none)
              Good point re evolution.  I'm guessing they went to a private (catholic) school.  Many send their kids to those private schools to get a better education (like my brother-in-law's kids) and unfortunately, that part of their education got skipped over.

              What part of Ireland did you live in?  I've spent a fair amount of time in County Kerry near Dingle.  Beautiful countryside!

          •  Troll Ratings (none)
            I'm taking this thread off my hotlist - I've had it with the petty troll ratings here.
            •  that's what you deserve (none)
              by turning a discussion of a topic you just don't
              like into an insult, spam fest.

              How completely juvenile and undemocratic
              to resort to such tactics simply because you do not
              like the facts and the issues in this diary.


              by Robert Oak on Thu Jun 30, 2005 at 08:42:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  & here are 3 reports that show it does not (none)

      Bernie Sanders, a socialist, house rep. has an entire website devoted to the topic:

      I don't know what is wrong with you two, if you are even two people versus 1 person with multiple  accounts, but may I suggest you start your own diary.

      Attacking me or this diary or the facts is not going to make empirical results disappear.

      by Robert Oak on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 12:43:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  laughable (1.00)
    Just because you say it and present something does not mean that globalization does not help both sides. And who are you quoting on this? ..socialist Bernie Sanders and Lou Dobbs who spends all his time bashing outsourcing. Have you ever thought about all the items that are made in America and are bought by people in India, China, Europe or are you claiming that America does not export anything to these countries? I wonder where the Boeing planes ordered by those Indian airline companies are manufactured! Think about the the consumer power of China and India. Both the countries have larger middle class than what America has.

    Dude, get some life instead of doubting whether people criticizing your diary are same or different people.

  •  Newsweek's Robert Samuelson on Immigration (4.00)
    recently showed that it's time to give the US economy a 'breather' on the rate of overall immigration:

    "The Hard Truth of Immigration--
    No society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many of them are poor or unskilled workers"

    I'm in favor of immigrants who apply for citizenship, as my earlier post shows.  The original post on this marathon thread (whew !) is about H1B's which ARE being abused fraudulently, with DOL tacit consent, as I've shown from the DOL's own weblink, see item #3 at

    The loopholes for fraudulent use are self evident.  'Attestations' by the company or the hiree, made under penalty of perjury, will NOT be investigated; employer companies will NOT be investigated for fraud, no fines for companies that break the law, and my favorite, the OLD form showing where the laws were being violated....that was eliminated with the stroke of a pen also:

    "The previous edition of this application form, displaying an OMB Expiration Date in the upper-right-hand corner of 31 AUG 2003, should no longer be submitted by employers seeking to hire H-1B nonimmigrants"

    Just the cold hard UGLY facts.

  •  By the way, India DEMANDS more visas ? WTF ???? (4.00)
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