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In case you were wondering what happened to today's supposed release of additional torture pictures.

On July 22, the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR)  denounced the latest efforts of the Bush Administration to block the release of the Darby photos and videos depicting torture at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison facility.  On June 2, 2004, CCR, along with the ACLU, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense, and Veterans for Peace filed papers with the U.S. District Court, charging the Department of Defense and other government agencies with illegally withholding records concerning the abuse of detainees in American military custody. Since then, the organizations have been repeatedly rebuffed in their efforts to investigate what happened at the prison.

In June, the government requested and received an extension from the judge stating that they needed time in order to redact the faces of the men, women and children believed to be shown in the photographs and videos.  They were given until today to produce the images, but at the eleventh hour filed a motion to oppose the release of the photos and videos, based on an entirely new argument:  they are now requesting a 7(F) exemption from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act to withhold law enforcement-related information in order to protect the physical safety of individuals. Today's move is the latest in a series of attempts by the government to keep the images from being made public and to cover up the torture of detainees in U.S. custody around the world.

The coverup continues.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:44 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Children!!! (4.00)
    For god's sake, children?

    We were abusing children?

    This is sickening.

    •  Kids love fraternity pranks (none)
      You're right.  It's fucking sick.

      Packer, you Republican cannibal, I would sintince ya ta hell but the statutes forbid it.

      by BrooklynRaider on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:52:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  actually, I think the Bush folks... (none)
      ...are feeling a little queasy at the thought of the reaction releasing these photos will cause.

      The whole pictures worth a thousand words thing.

      We can safely ignore words like 'abuse' and 'torture' and 'crime against humanity', but seeing those words in action is different...

      As the parent of a 15 month old, I find that we are even thinking that our citizens abroad are involved in the systematic abuse of children is completely abhorrent.

      never underestimate social psychology

      by creativedissonance on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:54:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Canard a l'orange (none)
        Quacky knows that if these are released now, he's cooked duck.  42% approval rating would transpose to 24%.

        Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
        Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

        by Caelian on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:58:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  feeling a little queasy (none)
        And so they should. But, of course, the larger issue will be if there are riots throughout the Muslim world on the heels of the release of these photos.

        They won't be able to blame it on Newsweek's irresponsible journalism then.

        •  They ALWAYS blame the messenger (4.00)
          It's one of their most basic tactics.  It may, finally, not work, but they'll try:  talk radio and Fox News will be aquiver with outrage that the liberal media could undertake such an assault on our national security and our troops in Iraq.

          Packer, you Republican cannibal, I would sintince ya ta hell but the statutes forbid it.

          by BrooklynRaider on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:21:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It's a national security issue. (none)
        However sickening, I can almost agree with the argument that the photos should be held back.  I don't know, I think the release would outright kill this country and send our own continent into a chaos of rioting and death.  We invaded and institutionalized torture wholesale.  Not even the "bad apple" defense holds up at this systemic level.  And how hypocritical of our chain of command to send these people in there, charge them with getting intel about WMD's by any means (torture included) necessary, when all along we've known there were no WMD's.

        What I want to know, is why hasn't a single concientious government official who has seen the actually photos, be it senator, representative, any federal employee, PUBLICLY RESIGNED IN DISGUST at our contry's actions?

    •  We were not... (none)
      only abusing children we were raping children. Not only raping children, but raping women and as most here no systematically torturing the men.

      I wrote this diary a few weeks ago on the torture of women in Iraq.

      http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/31/114148/744

      •  shock.... (none)
        ...I am speechless....

        Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it. -Thomas Paine

        by sweettp2063 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:48:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Speechless (none)
          Now is not the time for speechlessness. Our nation not only has the largest percentage of its own citizenry inprisoned, we have become to primary practitioner of terror and torture worlwide. We have chained the globe with our torture cell prisons either run or overseen by our agents. I don't know about the wingnuts but I'm Not Proud and I'm letting people know it. We can't rely on the corporate/psy-ops media to inform the people of what's being done in our name. It's our responsibility to inform each other and get the news out there, otherwise we carry the stain of complicity.
      •  Not.only abusing children we were raping children (none)
        We almost shut down the Catholic Church in America over priests molesting little kids. An entire generation of American Catholics no longer believes what Church hierarchy says about ANYTHING. If photos of our soliders buggering little kids are released, generations of people the world over will never again trust America.
      •  Isn't this (none)
        one of the supposed reasons that Saddam was deposed? To save the Iraqis from this?

        The mind boggles.

    •  The US simply has not witnessed the war (none)
      ... or the accompanying heinous acts that have been committed in their name. It's a different world outside the bubble.

      Most of the world has been absorbing appalling, candid images of the war on Iraq for a long time and remains utterly baffled that Smirk/Sneer could (a) get a second term; (b) get an apparent popular endorsement of their lunatic policies and /or (c) if not, apparent apathy in the face of election improprieties.

      C-Span coverage of the Rove-WH leak on Fri, 07/22 10:00am!

      by Peanut on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:44:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  why (none)
      is that (shocking)news to anyone?

      American dream is a myth!

      by brown american on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 07:53:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Where is Andrea Mitchell ... (4.00)
    screaming about the freedom of the press now?!

    Grok Your World

    grok: to understand something in a deep and empathic way

    by Grok Your World on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:48:16 PM PDT

  •  Didn't We Learn From the Durbin Incident? (3.25)
    Didn't we learn from the reaction to Senator Durbin that even mentioning the word torture is treason?  Torture doesn't exist.  It's just a few of our guys having some fun.  Or innovative interrogation techniques.

    How dare we question!

    And war is peace.  Love is hate.  And I love big brother - he speaks with a (fake) Texan drawl.

  •  I mean, I can never really (4.00)
    believe that this pack of clowns and thugs is our government, but some days I really can't believe that this pack of clowns and thugs is our government.

    Packer, you Republican cannibal, I would sintince ya ta hell but the statutes forbid it.

    by BrooklynRaider on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:51:57 PM PDT

  •  The administration is scared witless over this. (4.00)
    They know that whatever flap they have had previously, over Abu Ghraib or "flushed" Korans, will be as nothing if these pictures get out.
    The Senators who watched them were whitefaced when they emerged from the chamber where they were shown.

    They depict rapes, abuses of children and extreme degradations, according to the comments made at the time, as well as a few comments made by Seymour Hersh, who has a set.

    "I don't do quagmires, and my boss doesn't do nuance."

    by SteinL on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:52:07 PM PDT

    •  I'm suprised (none)
      that they aren't already available on the net, given the sickeningly fast pace at which the beheading videos made the rounds..

      oh yeah, video/photographic evidence of THEIR atrocities is OK, just not vice versa.

      Never mind.

      never underestimate social psychology

      by creativedissonance on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:56:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's what I thought--extreme stuff... (none)
      that will make people not even want to hear an explanation, they'll be so outraged.

      So Hersh actually has a set?  Is he afraid for his safety if he himself releases them?

    •  then Sy should release them too (none)
      Why not?

      Someone's going to pay for all this crap, and it better be the people who ordered it done in addition to the poor bastards who had to execute the orders.

      •  I seem to remember that there were over ... (none)
        1800 photos in the set shown to the Senators, which means that the extent of the illegal activities in Abu Ghraib was a lot more than "just a few bad apples."
        I don't know how many photos were taken of each "interrogation" - but even with, say, 20 photos of each, we are speaking of 90 individuals. So far, we have seen no more than about eight (depending upon how one counts the hooded individuals).
        Can you imagine the uproar in the Muslim world when these photographs become public?

        "I don't do quagmires, and my boss doesn't do nuance."

        by SteinL on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:20:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What I want to know is (none)
          ...why these idiots recorded their crimes.  Aside from how abhorrently awful said crimes are.  Were they told to document things, or did they decide to on a whim?

          Or- hang on- did they document the abuse because they wanted it out there, know, so that even if they got punished, the people who gave these orders would be too?

          I can't imagine the documentation was ordered.  Isn't that the first rule of breaking laws of God and Man?  Turn the camera off?

          •  These were approved techniques... (3.66)
            why would they be afraid to take pictures of them. I read a few weeks ago that the ACLU and others are trying to get video and pictures taken at Gitmo showing simliar stuff.
          •  The videos of child rape... (4.00)
            ...were to be used as a tool.  Show the tape or tapes to an individual and tell them, "Give up the info or this is what happens to your child."  

            Hearts and minds right, snark, snark.

            I read this bit somewhere and I wish I had the source.  Anyone else out there remember reading this?

            A failed President= August 6 PDB, Bin Laden? DSM, WMD's? Abu Ghraib, Rove/Plame

            by Gator on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:21:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Right (none)
              You beat me to it.
            •  But by the way... (none)
              My memory is that no one ever said Americans were directly involved in that kind of abuse.  I thought the accusation was that minors were rounded up and put in prison with some truly unsavory Iraqis...with the predictable unspeakable results.

              It's still not great, but hopefully we have on our hands more malicious negligence than outright assault on that score.

              •  You are mistaken. (none)
                Google ["Hersh" AND "torture" AND "Abu Ghraib"] and keep your barf bucket handy. You will not only encounter his articles in The New Yorker, you will run into audio and video files of Hersh TELLING about having seen the videotaped sodomization of children in front of their mothers, under the supervision of American soldiers.

                "Aure entuluva!" [Day will come again!] -Hurin

                by davidincleveland on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 06:04:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Believe me, I'm ready to barf as it is (none)
                  I found what I was remembering.  First there was a Salon article
                  and that links to this Telegraph article

                  The sentence that stood out for me was "news organizations described 'a videotape, apparently made by US personnel, is said to show Iraqi guards raping young boys."

                  Please understand.  I'm not saying this isn't awful and unforgiveable.  I just want to be careful what we're accusing whom of.  Were the Iraqis acting orders from US military police?  Were the Iraqis themselves out of control?  Was it just a chaotic free for all?  

                  Okay.  Enough hairsplitting from me.  I'm off to barf.

          •  My understanding is the pictures were the torture (4.00)
            That's why there are so many.  It's not documentation.  The pictures themselves were used as a tool to break the prisoners.

            I think the idea was to put the prisoner into a horrible pose, something sexual or otherwise awful (like, maybe being led around on a leash) and then you snap his picture.  Then you tell him you'll show it to his family, etc. if he doesn't talk.

            Of course, there is this eensie problem of what to do with prisoners who don't talk because they have nothing to say.  And that's probably where the rest of the abuse came in.

          •  Voyeurism at its worse (none)
            Is it possible that they were enjoying looking at these pictures?  Fond recollections of their power over another.  To me, the violence and humiliation of this is no different than that of rape.  It is about ultimate power and control over another life.

            Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty. - John Keats

            by mismolly on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:54:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  There would be a furious reaction (4.00)
          on the streets and the governments would do little if anything to curb them.  American embassies and businesses would become immediate targets.  It would be very ugly and the end result could be civil war in Iraq.  

          I can't agree ethically with the decision to suppress the images even if I think it is a pragmatic move.  The real problem is that Bushco is becoming so busy covering up that no real business can get done.  How can Congress get anything done with an administration they don't trust or respect?

          I want Condi on a talk show ten years from now so someone can ask her how history has judged the Bush administration.  I wish this had never happened even schadenfruede gets dull.

          •  I could see the wisdom, if . . . (none)
            I could see the wisdom of not releasing the photographs if the administration had made a genuine effort to get to the bottom of the abuse, taken responsibility for what has been done in the name of U.S. national security, and set in motion some way to right the wrongs done to people, or at least compensate their families.

            The administration has done just the opposite.

            The release of the photographs will have all sorts of terrible repercussions. But how other than by forcing the administration to come clean are we ever going to return to a government of laws, not lying demagogues, and a society with at least some commitment to human rights?

            Or is Bush hoping the Supreme Court will rule in his favor after he's appointed a new Chief Justice?

            •  Think of it as the Ace up our sleeve. (4.00)
              Nothing, absolutely NOTHING, could hurt the Bush administration like the release of the photos.  About the only good time to release them would be after Bushco has been frogmarched off so as to focus the rage at the departed administration instead of the country.  Then the Bush admin would earn another frogmarch off to the Hague and the anger of the world would be focussed on the trial.  

              We MUST split the attention away from the US of A as the perpetrator and onto the administration as the ultimately guilty parties.  If the images are released while Bush is still in power, the country will suffer internationally and the administration will be more than useless trying to cover up and shift blame.

              My ETA for the big resignations was Sept '06.  I've since decided that it may be as early as Spring '06.  No Republican can want to run for office with burden of the Bush administration weighing them down.  All a contender would have to do is keep referring to "My REPUBLICAN opponent...".

        •  Don't you know (none)
          we had a bumper crop of apples!

          American dream is a myth!

          by brown american on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 07:59:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Poor bastards? (4.00)
        My fucking foot!

        A soldier has the right, indeed the responsibility, to disobey those orders -- like raping women and children.

        I believe the people comitting these crimes enjoy it. They were raised on video games that allowed them to experience orgasms - now they see no difference. They have left reality -- a sort of Twilight Zone of sadism and cruelty.

        You know, the place where Bush lives deep down inside.

        Your hands are shaking, Popinjay!

        by Maine Atticus on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 05:54:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  OK, so we have to get the Senators who saw them (4.00)
      to tell the media what the pictures depicted.  Since the administration will not be honest about what went on in Abu Ghraib, we need to depend on the honesty of our Democratic senators.  All of them who saw the pictures together.  Not one, like Durbin, who can be hung out to dry.  Liberals, moderates, all together, speaking out about the photos.  

      I am going to write to Clinton and Schumer about this.  This is our handiwork, and we are not allowed to see it.

      "If you are not outraged, you are not paying attention."

      by adigal on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:00:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They will come out (none)
      Patience.  They will certainly come out.
  •  How hard will it be to run as a republican? (4.00)
    In 2002 and 2004 almost any republican candidate in the country could sail through an election on Bush's coattails. A number of GOP candidates who wouldn't normally have won managed to take office. Those were the good times for the Rove/DeLay machine.

    Regardless of how the treason and torture investigations play out, it seems to me that Bush's burnish is gone. With the impending loss in Iraq (perhaps packaged as a declare-victory-and-leave failure), there is nothing good for the GOP going into the 2006 elections. As the Bush administration spends more and more energy on damage control and coverup they'll be unable to focus on elections across the country.

    Scandals abound at the highest levels of the GOP. I'd imagine that smart democratic candidates will be able to leverage this into advantages. I don't think I'd want to be a GOP candidate next year.

  •  heh (none)
    Let's all chime in together shall we. Ready?

    1, and a 2, and a 3

    Why am I not surprised.

    Ta da!!

  •  Hopefully the media will cover this (none)
    That was awful writing by CCR if it was supposed to be a news article. The real news - that the administration is blocking the release - is buried. Hopefully someone can dissect this and tell us what it actually means in refard to releasing the photos.

    Not surprising that Bushco would do this, but hopefully the motion will be denied quickly.

  •  CHILDREN (3.88)
    ....

    "...CHILDREN believed to be shown
    in the photographs and videos."

    this will kill Bush if it ever sees the light of day

    THIS IS HORRIBLE

    CHILDREN in TORTURE pictures and videos

    Again,

    CHILDREN

    one more time

    Children

    ...

    •  but... (4.00)
      ...they're already born.  Bush supporters only care about fetuses.

      Right?  Right?

      I like the view from the moral highground.

      by DawnG on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:17:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  An 18 year old was just... (4.00)
        denied relief by the court last week as he was seeking to have the court protect him from abusive interrogations at Gitmo. He has been interrogated since he first arrived at the camp at 15 years of age.
        •  Was that John Roberts' court? (4.00)
          What is happening in my country astounds me.  I listen to right wing talk radio every day, and the hatred those people have for Democrats, the right to trial, and even something as basic as a judge having to sign a subpoena to look at your bank records is incredibly strong.  

          As the wife of a NYC firefighter disabled by 9/11 and a resident of NY, I know what terror is.  If I have not become an extremist due to terror, why the hell have all these wingnuts from Louisiana and Colorado become lunatics over the possibility that they may die from a terrorist attack?? Yeah, the terrorists really want to attack the bayou or the Rocky Mountains.  Sure, it's their first target.

          1/2 of the American people have become nuts over this.

          "If you are not outraged, you are not paying attention."

          by adigal on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:06:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why do these wingnuts... (none)
            because they love it.  They are high on the adrenaline rush of (i) self-righteous indignation and (ii) blood lust for vengence.

            Not, mind you, because they have personally been so grievously wronged--as you point out.  No, they love it because this gives them the excuse--and the RW noise machine gives them the approval--to go apeshit: muslims, immigrants, gays and always, especially liberals.  Makes em feel like men.

            •  You are 100% correct (none)
              This gives them a license to be evil, racist haters.  It gives them a green light to attack every single thing and person they feel has added to their miserable lives.  How anyone can call the radio and say the hateful things that come out of their mouths is a sign that they are angry and sad little people.  I need to stop listening to them.

              "If you are not outraged, you are not paying attention."

              by adigal on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 04:22:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  you are sane (none)
            unlike the poor masses

            American dream is a myth!

            by brown american on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 08:03:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  what????? (none)
      I need to vomit.

      Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it. -Thomas Paine

      by sweettp2063 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:53:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Huh (1.25)
      I can't get extra-outraged about the "children" because I'm not sure what we're talking about here. Are we talking about 15/16 year olds who had joined militias? There's no excuse for torturing anybody of whatever age, but I don't think torturing a 16 year old militia member is whole lot worse than torturing a 20 year old militia member. We really need these pictures released so that ALL of us know what is going on in our name...
      •  Let's be VERY clear. (4.00)
        Sy Hersh reported on a videotape of male children being sodomized in front of their mothers, after the mothers and their children were imprisoned by American soldiers as a ploy to get their fathers to surrender.
        Why does it matter what the children might have done? Would it be all right (to you) if someone accused YOUR spouse of terrorism and took you and your children hostage in order to make your spouse surrender? If so, then I guess you could stretch a point and allow as how (since the soldiers think your entire family is guilty by acssociation) a little child rape is "understandable" under the circumstances.
        But these children weren't "teenage insurgents" or any other kind of fighter or criminal. Our own military has already admitted to the taking of women and children as hostages. I feel ashamed that I even need to mention their total innocence to Americans, because that wouldn't make any difference to real Americans.

        "Aure entuluva!" [Day will come again!] -Hurin

        by davidincleveland on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 06:24:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "I don't think torturing a 16 year old (1.00)
          militia member is whole lot worse than torturing a 20 year old militia member."

          You make me sick.

          "Aure entuluva!" [Day will come again!] -Hurin

          by davidincleveland on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 06:29:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Why does it matter what the children have done? (none)
          I already made it clear that I don't think it is acceptable to torture anyone whatever their age. Your implication that I condone torture under any circumstances is based on absolutely nothing.

          I brought up the issue of what these "children" have done, because I think there is an enormous difference between a child who behaves like a child and a teenager who picks up a weapon to kill American soldiers. One is innocent. And the other is a killer. One shouldn't be dragged into a conflict by our forces, and the other volunteered himself for a war. So why does the difference matter? It's the difference between an innocent and a person who is has justifiably been tossed in jail. It matters because if leftist activists start crying child abuse and it turns out that these "children" were shooting at U.S. soldiers, we will damage our credibility with the American public. I don't know anything about the reporter you mentioned. If you want to persuade anyone about that who isn't already persuaded, you might want to adopt a more adult tone.

  •  This is (none)
    PISSING ME OFF!!!
  •  Bastards (none)
    My tax money is not only killing Iraqis but torturing children, too?

    May those responsible for these crimes rot.  Just rot.

    On the bright side, maybe this stuff will break wide open in time to influence the 2006 elections in our favor.  On the side of right, that is.

    "¡Juntos Pedemos!"

    by rhubarb on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:56:36 PM PDT

  •  A sign of things to come (none)
    They are 'circling the wagons'.

    I think they sense a mortal threat at this point - I have a bad feeling that we are going to see some very undemocratic (small d) stuff in the very near future.

  •  Do these guys EVER quit? (none)
    Clinton had his peccadilloes, no doubt.  But this is borderline pathological, control freakish, "I know what's best and it's best that you get your nose outta my business."

    You don't agree with me?  Not only are you canned, but you're smeared in a truly vicious manner.

    Oh course, smiling George is somehow 'above the fray' because his hatchet men (Cheney, Rummy, Mehlman, Rove) do it for him.

    Bush Pere was nowhere near as thuggish as his son.

  •  Heh, Bush would not torture anyone and then (4.00)
    try to hide it.

    Just like he would never cook up false intel to scare Congress into supporting the Iraq invasion, and then try to hide the deliberate fixing of wmd intel

    Just like he would never steal an election, and then try to hide it.

  •  motion (none)
    So they filed a motion. What did the judge say?  Maybe it will be turned down? Is it over?

    Ken Salazar (D-CO), who said he'll vote for the Flag Desecration Amendment, needs to hear from us.

    by OLinda on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:01:31 PM PDT

  •  Hersh (4.00)
    in the New Yorker

    Some of the worst things that happened you don't know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It's going to come out.

    See this previous diary:

    Kids sodomized at Abu Ghraib, Pentagon has the videos - Hersh

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:01:48 PM PDT

    •  Oh wow I'm having a flashback! (none)
      And not a good one.

      It was my first front-paged article tho'.  That part was cool.

    •  And this stops terrorism, how? (none)
      Children that will hate the US for a generation.... someone tell me this is a nightmare and I can wake up now.

      Problem is, I can understand not wanting the pictures out. This could be the worst thing for the US. But what I just cannot comprehend is how Americans could order this? What in the HELL were they thinking?

      I really hate it that BushCo has made us the "bad guys." I naively believed all my life that were kinda the "good guys." No more. That smell is off the rose.

      •  Seeing the foul underbelly (none)
        of "The War to Promote Terror -The WPT" (pronounced "The Whipped). We're seeing its effectiveness here today a dKos. God help us. God help us all.

        The name is not the thing named, the map is not the territory. -- Gregory Bateson

        by semiot on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 05:19:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Explain something to me (none)
      How is it that when the flap about Senator Durbin's remarks was all over the news that the senators who had seen this stuff didn't speak up?

      From what I'm reading here I certainly don't see a lot of difference between this and what was going on in Nazi concentration camps. I'm appalled and sickened.

  •  It's all connected (none)
    It's all connected.

    This is the theme that we need to be hammering home these days in the media.

    The nice thing is you don't even have to bother with silly things like showing chains of evidence, showing how things are connected.  Because people don't really care too much about that stuff, sad to say; because we're not just talking about evidence, we're talking about charcter.

    Just list off:

    Abu Ghraib
    Guantanamo bay
    Tom DeLay
    Duke Cunningham
    Valerie Plame
    Iraq money missing

    etc, take your pick, lol

    And then hammer home these things are all connected; the dishonesty that drives this administration and the Republican leadership has lead to an amazing amount of scandals all at once.

    If there is any lesson that we should have learned from the Republicans it's that staying on message and repeating easy-to-remember points is a serious key in reaching a significant portion of Americans.  

    Although I'm as much of a political nut as you who are reading this, and I demand evidence and the like, the public LOVES charcter issues.

    Cheers

  •  Law enforcement? (none)
    Are they meaning to imply here that this is a police action? Haunting use of words echo with that implication. Anyway, are these prisoners of war, enemy combatants, or victims?

    Whose physical safety are they now so concerned with? I have the feeling it isn't the Iraqi women and children.

    ...Whirlpools whirl, and dragnets drag...

    by dss on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:03:58 PM PDT

  •  OK - now let's TAKE SOME ACTION... (none)
    What can we do? Other than alert our ever-not- vigilant media. Do we have any recourse as citizens??

    We have got to get these pictures out there where we everyday folk can see them.

  •  Kos folks (4.00)
    Thanks for recommendations on my "Where are the Abu Ghraib Photos" diary.

    I've worked for over a year to get this issue added to Bush's record of historical mismanagement of this country.

    I have posted media contacts on the other diary.  Please use them.

    Don't let Bush write his own history.

    A failed President= August 6 PDB, Bin Laden? DSM, WMD's? Abu Ghraib, Rove/Plame

    by Gator on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:05:55 PM PDT

  •  Saturday Night Massacre 2.0 (none)
    Alberto Gonzalez was installed as Attorney General, so Bush would have to fire the Attorney General and the Deputy Attorney General. Eliot Richardson and William Ruckelshaus both resigned instead of firing Archibald Cox. Finally he was fired by Robert Bork.
  •  Freedom's Gooseteppin' all the way... (3.75)
    to the Reichstag...

    This is a "free" society? Not under Bush.

    What a joke. If you want to see a "free" society, move to NZ.

    He's such a lowly squirming worm. Such a coward.

    BUSH IS A COWARD. COWARD. COWARD. COWARD.

    W isn't half the man his father was. Not even a tenth of the man.

    W is a child. He has the mind of a child, the self-centered narcisism of a child.

    W stands for Wallydraigle.

    "...an admirable evasion of whoremaster man, to lay his goatish disposition to the charge of a star!"

    King Lear

    by Norwell on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:07:01 PM PDT

    •  howdy bill! (none)
      the C&J bill?  solid material...

      as for Assclown and his insane posse, is anyone really surprised?  there's NO WAY this ever sees the light of day, at least thru proper channels.  They'll invoke "terror" reasons, and it'll all find a nice burial with some conservative judge...

      pics like these would destroy our image (stop laughing...i mean, more than it is now).  this is no possible reason bush lets these out.  i'll bet every dollar i own on it.

      he wont fire rove, he wont release pics, he'll appoint bolton against our wishes....where does it end?

      •  They'll be leaked. Just you watch. (none)
        •  i'm surely hoping so.... (none)
          some anonymous poster on some obscure webpage from an Islamic website....just to hide the details of who leaked what to who when...it'll hopefully start that way and then blow up....

          man, people over in the ME will go powder-keg on our country if/when these are released...will be good to see bush kicked out of office...

          •  Its the "powderkeg" part (none)
            I don't want, obviously, because chances are that if/when anti-American violence occurs, it will be innocent citizens that suffer, not the perpetraitors (nice word) or their higher-ups. Other than its potential to take an even larger gouge out of the public's perception of credibility in BushCo, these photos released or not appear to be a lose-lose situation.

            Can anyone tell me why my American flag was made in China?

            by Skid on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:24:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps Rove or Libby (none)
          will leak the photos to Novak or Cooper. Enough of the snark.  This is too serious for any kind of levity.  

          I agree, this is a terrible thing.  Anyone who abuses children or animals is truly evil.

          We have become the enemy. We lost any kind of moral authority.  

          This BushCO/Mafia really need to go to jail.  

  •  If the pics can't be released, (none)
    perhaps an artist's rendering could be done?

    Can anyone tell me why my American flag was made in China?

    by Skid on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:12:07 PM PDT

  •  unfcukingbelievably disgusting (4.00)
    No wonder we call these bags of unpatriotic sh!t thugs.
  •  The judge will likely not be very (4.00)
    amused at this latest turn of events.  I'd hate to be the Justice Department lawyer who has to show up at a hearing to explain.

    Also, I suspect that the argument at the hearing on their new argument will be that the harm to be prevented is international outrage causing people to attack U.S. soliders and I doubt that the judge will buy it.

    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

    by ohwilleke on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:18:44 PM PDT

    •  why wont they... (none)
      shop this to another judge?  can they?  i know nothing about federal law and practices....

      it seems they'd want a softer judge....can they get a new one?  

      anyone a lawyer who can explain?

      •  My Udnerstanding Is... (none)
        ...that cases generally have one judge who hears all the motions, etc.  I don't think this type of thing gets shopped around from judge to judge...otherwise judges would continually have to be educating themselves on myriads of new cases.  
      •  To get a different judge, (none)
        they'd have to file a motion to the judge to recuse himself.  He'd refuse, of course.  Then they could make the same motion to the appellate court.  But appellate courts remove judges from cases only in egregious circumstances.  It almost never happens.
    •  If I were the judge, (none)
      I think I might start making remarks in conferences in chambers about frivolous motions and being found in contempt.
      •  Indeed. (4.00)
        I could imagine a certain amount of judicial sympathy if Justice had gone to the judge and said "We can't do it by the time you ordered, we tried, but that photoshopping the faces stuff is harder than we'd estimated and our tech guy's affidavit says it will take him another six months."

        But, to go in on the deadline and raise an entirely new issue that you've presumably known about since at least as recently as the matter was briefed, is another story.  I imagine that there is quite a bit of case law about when a FOIA determination has to be made which limits both sides to litigating what actually happened in the agency action.

        "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

        by ohwilleke on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 05:07:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I suggest we force the issue (none)
    and start talking about the existence of child abuse photos as fact.  That way the burden of proof falls on Karl Bush and his sicko pervert supporters.

    On a related subject, I hope Charles Graner (the warped fascist military police torture addict in most of the photos) is enjoying the masculine company of his cellmates right about now.

    TK-421, why aren't you at your post?

    by Magnus Greel on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:20:29 PM PDT

  •  Does Anyone Know... (none)
    Whether the court has acted on the administration's motion?
  •  Who wrote the diary recently about secrets? (none)
    It was all about how our question should be, over and over again, "Why does this administration have so many secrets?"
    It makes me naseous how much they have hidden from us.
  •  Damn! Damn! Damn! DAMN! (none)
    Children!!!  No!!!  

    "Free speech is not to be regulated like diseased cattle and impure butter." William O. Douglas.

    by Street Kid on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:27:08 PM PDT

  •  I would say a 70% probability that we see a leak (none)
    Of the photos, or some, or probably just one--one iconic, damning frame--before the weekend is over.  You read 'blood in the water' arguments about the involvement of the press here all the time, which I probably couldn't improve.  Suffice it to say that there is a huge interest in getting the photos out there.  And if by chance that photo emerges, the defensive gesticulations that will have to be undertaken by this administration and its propagandists (added to RoveGate) will make the Cirque de Soleil acrobats look like third-rate pole dancers.
  •  You Know Sy Hersch Has Extra Copies . . . (4.00)
    You know Sy Hersch has extra copies of all of those pictures.  He needs to go ahead and release his.

    Post the damn things on the Internet for the whole damn world to see.  

    Children?  And he did not fire Rumsfeld?  Gimme a break!

    These bastards give a whole new meaning to the phrase, "sorry mutha fuckers."

  •  Don't bug Sy (4.00)
    make sure we pressure the gov't to release the photos!

    There is no excuse for this crap!

    •  don't think Sy has them (4.00)
      Sy Hersh may have been shown the pictures by a source, but I don't think he has copies.  Otherwise, why wouldn't he have released them or at least passed them onto to someone who would release them (like the ACLU)?
      •  IF SY HAS COPIES (none)
        He would be wise to keep them and let the bush admin. release their own, otherwise he would be the messenger to be shot. "it's all Sy Hersh's fault we have these riots !" etc. ! What a crock !

        And when they DO release them; "It could be humans in this photo but I really can't tell from these redacted photos what EXACTLY what is going on".

        The FIX is in ! NOTHING will come of this as with allllll the other scandals. Why do you think we have a rush to appoint federal judges, Hmmmmm ?

  •  while i heavily disapprove these maneuvers, (none)
    strategically speaking, this is a good thing.  Rove is in the hot seat, and any distraction of from this scandal, even if it's a bigger scandal will have adverse effects.  
    1. it will take up media real estate
    2. it will split our forces to focus on both issues

    lets not forget, the longer they put off the release, the closer the actual release will be to the 2006 elections

    The Bill of Rights, not the Ten Commandments, should be on our buildings

    by chinkoPelinke on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:55:54 PM PDT

    •  The GOP is a disaster, a cancer, (4.00)
      on this country.  I believe that the Bush administration represents an attempted soft coup.

      However, if exposing these pictures means that one less child will be subject to such horrificness because of public pressure on Bush's torture policies, I say, release them now and partisan considerations be damned.

      I've made it very clear, he was not involved, that there's no truth to the suggestion that he was.-McClellan, 2003

      by GN1927 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:10:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Somebody should suggest to SCOTUS (none)
    that the administration was playing games with them with the original Abu Ghraib photos.  CBS had the photos, and planned to broadcast them before the oral argument in any of the enemy combatant cases last year.  But Gen. Myers and DOD got CBS to delay the broadcast, arguing that it would endanger the troops in Iraq.  

    Then the Supreme Court had its oral arguments in the enemy combatant cases.  I heard with my own ears on C-SPAN the oral argument in Hamdi, where Deputy Solicitor General (now Solicitor General) Paul Clement assured the justices the executive branch would never commit torture.  That evening, after the Hamdi oral argument, CBS finally broadcast the photos.

  •  The dark side (conservatives) (4.00)
    are in control of our country and govt, we had better all take a long good look in the mirror and stop this slide into darkness before it is too late.

    Some had better stop diluting themselves into believing that we are anything but another cheap version of the big bully on the block.

    Isn't it interesting that the moral conservatives are the ones that don't believe in the govt in sunshine doctrine, an admin and govt that is proud of their agenda and actions would never react like this to a freedom of info decision, fascists would.
    PEACE!

  •  Excuse Me? (4.00)
    redact the faces of the men, women and children

    (Emphasis added) Am I to understand that the U.S. was torturing children?

    No wonder they don't want these out!

    Liberal Thinking

    Think, liberally.

    by Liberal Thinking on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:21:32 PM PDT

  •  This is beyond madness (none)
    a 7(F) exemption from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act to withhold law enforcement-related information in order to protect the physical safety of individuals.

    Bush ridiculed the notion of making global terrorism a law enforcement issue and he insisted on the militaristic approach. That must be some magical semantical legal wand his legal nannies wield.

    C-Span coverage of the Rove-WH leak on Fri, 07/22 10:00am!

    by Peanut on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:23:19 PM PDT

  •  Fuck the leadership of both parties (4.00)
    Kids being tortured.

    Sorry, but we had years to demand accountability for this. Those Senators, Dem and Rep alike saw that it was this bad. To this day, they simply don't demand accountability. They don't raise their voice, even when children are abused. They just roll over and accept the coverup.

    If leaders can't raise their voice for the sake of stopping disgusting violations of prisoner abuse, there is no hope.

    What can I say about those leaders who cannot reject this. There are accomplices to the crimes. The republicans commit crimes, the democrats let them. Dems say nothing but "wait till 2006... just wait... just wait. Just wait and we'll get to the bottom of everything."

    Durbin speaks up, and then cries himself back to sleep.

    I'm just furious. Both parties make me sick.

    Truth doesn't take sides

    by KingJames on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:26:19 PM PDT

  •  Sure Explains the International Court (4.00)
    This sure explains why the administration wasn't willing to sign up to let the World Court try U.S. personnel. Whoever did this is in the same league as Saddam and Milosevic.

    If there's any justice in the world, the next administration will route them out and ship them off to The Hague.

    Liberal Thinking

    Think, liberally.

    by Liberal Thinking on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:31:56 PM PDT

  •  This government is making Saddam look clean. (none)
    Where is the responsibility that we should be able to expect from a        PRESIDENT     for God's sake?   Where is the care for thisk country's reputation?   Where is the care for our citizens who are being harmed by the stonewalling?   Where is the care for our national security?   Where is the common decency involved in keeping your word?   Where is the willingness to take the blame when its yours to own?  Where is the remorse for all the deaths and injuries?   Where ????    

    What else is this government hiding?   What else do they have that is so bad that it might even outdo the Abu Ghraib pictures?

    Is this how our country dies?   With self centered petty people who managed to convince enough people that they were the exact opposite of what they are?   Is this the end of the beautiful dream that I had hoped would actually last for maybe even 500 years?   All those possibilities gone for the greed and paranoid scizophrenia of a few who feed each other with their certainty that they are right and the rest of the world is wrong?

    What can you do with powerful people with centuries of tradition behind them that they are using to do whatever they want?   Tell whatever lies they want?  Steal whatever they want?  Hurt whomever they want?   Ruin whomever they want?   and Ignore whomever and whatever they want?

    If they won't even consider the fact that they are to the point where the only way out is to fold and tell the truth?   If they won't allow anything they don't like just because they have the power to do so?   If they can threaten to not allow the military funding if someone wants to add investigating their torture chambers to it?

    What are we to do?    What?

    I feel better now.   Thanks for the patience.  <sniff>

  •  All I know is that I feel the same kind (none)
    of sick to my stomach I do when there's a capital punishment scheduled someplace in the country.  

    Where does this vicious bloodlust come from?  These are not the deranged psychopaths among us but the ordinary people who live on our streets and drive past us and shop at the same markets we do who get scared and respond by demanding that everyone else's civil rights be suspended or cold-blooded terror and the most horrific kinds of revenge.

    What is the mechanism by which ordinary people abandon a lifetime commitment to civilization?  What does it take to be afraid and retain your humanity & character?  Because the REAL casulallty of war is our decency -- and that means those of us at the front and on the homefront.  

  •  Tortured children (none)
    No one should be surprised that these photos are being suppressed; this evidence will eventually see the light of day and these sadistic cowards will be unmasked to face the wrath of the world;
    Rumsfeld and his fellow war criminals, in the meantime, are quaking in their fascist boots in fear of their exposure. Strive for truth and justice. These horrific photos cannot be hidden for too much longer. Apathy must not be permitted to take root.
  •  prison coverup (4.00)
    Bush has transformed America into a sick, cowardly, sadistic, murderous aberration.
  •  11th hour appeal - what a crock! (none)
    Has Bush ever admitted the truth about anything without being forced to?
  •  look in the mirror.... (4.00)
    To LCM, Rainey, maybeeso, and everyone else: the problem is the attitude that "we're America, we're the greatest nation in the world, we can do whatever we want". It's the attitude that forgets that the rules of moral conduct apply to everyone, us included. It's the attitude that thinks that we can be the exception to the rules, simply by gist of our power. It's the attitude that forgets that freedom does not extend just to me, but to my neighbor.

    In short, we forget that the rules apply to us too. If outrages are committed against us, as on 9/11, we deserve sympathy, and we got it. But when we committed outrages against the people of Iraq, on totally false premises, we lost that sympathy, but were and are blind to that fact.

    •  This is one of the best comments (none)
      You've got it exactly right. We must demand an accounting. I remember the My Lai Massacre- & the attendant outcry. This is so far beyond that. I am beside myself. This must come out.

      America needs to cleanse its soul. The term war criminal has been thrown around about Clinton & Clark. And arguably they were trying to stop a genocide. But this atrocity & there's nothing about Bush- NOTHING!
      If this doesn't lead to impeachment I don't know what should!

      God I don't think I'll be sleeping tonight. The cries of children! What kind of monsters would do this?

      The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all- John F Kennedy

      by vcmvo2 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 08:29:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think I'll be sleeping, either (none)
        I'm scared of the nightmares that will come. And I'm terrified that once those pictures come out, the nightmares will be all too real.

        "I don't believe in God, so I can't be saved..."--Mess, Ben Folds Five

        by still small voice on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 08:46:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nightmares (none)
          I wasn't even thinking of them. Maybe it's better that I don't go to sleep. God, this is unspeakably evil.

          The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all- John F Kennedy

          by vcmvo2 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 09:13:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Handling this correctly (none)
    and likewise, handling the upcoming Bagram Afghanistan trials effectively (right now they're being handled just like Abu Ghraib) are key to ending the jihads and the current "War on Terror".  If they're mishandled, we can expect escalation to continue or accelerate.  

    Every denial of routine, sanctioned, sadistic torture and murder is unavoidably blown apart by cases like Dilawar's, but no one knows about it because there are no photos.  Please, fellow literate Americans, read the link to the NYTimes article on it.

    By the time more Abu Ghraib photos are released, we should all be part of a public movement to make sure that, for everyone who has been murdered or abused by the US military, soldiers and their commanders are held accountable.  That doesn't give us much time.

    It's not clear many Democrats will support justice, but we can't let that dissuade us.  Durbin was reamed for trying it.  Kerry has seen the secret Abu Ghraib images but doesn't talk about them.  When Senator Lindsay Graham saw them he admitted they document "rape and murder"!

    In fact, whoever takes up this cry for justice has a huge shot at winning elections based on their daring, exclusive, credible, peaceful path to resolving to the current Terror war.  It would be nice if it were Democrats, but for the sake of our children and our world, we mustn't depend on them.

    We need plenty more diaries here addressing this.  Our routine treatment of Iraqis is part of it.  I'm not aware of a more important issue.

    •  I'm with you (4.00)
      We need to do whatever we have to do to:

      1. Impeach this unbelievably corrupt administration who were the architects of this war and the torture policy.

      2. Submit to the International war crimes tribunal and make sure that whomever raped or beat a child, stood by while a child was raped or beaten, or drafted policy making it okay to rape or beat a child PAYS for their crimes.  We have to show that our system is not so dysfunctional that these crimes will go unanswered.  There are people who need to be in jail, and we need to assist in putting them there.

      3. Make the GOP unelectable for years (as Thatcher's conservatives are), as a warning to cabals of lunatic who imagine that they will try this shit again.

      That's the only way in which we can regain a semblance of credibility.

      I've made it very clear, he was not involved, that there's no truth to the suggestion that he was.-McClellan, 2003

      by GN1927 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 06:42:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  THIS IS NOTHING NEW FOR AMERICA (none)
    Geez, people! America has been up to this sort of evil since its inception.
    see here:
    http://coat.ncf.ca/articles/links/how_to_start_a_war.htm

    or google up the story of the cia and its various murderous shenagigans overseas over the decades...
    Both Democrats and Republicans have done very similar evil deeds for many many decades.

    When will you all realize that the people who make it to the top are ALL EVIL, and that once they get to the top, they get even MORE EVIL.

    We need to acknowledge this, and get a new constitution that puts more power in the hands of the people and less in the politicians and military and so forth, and a constitution that treats our elite as the evil scum that they are, and has a special justice system focused especially on the elite.

  •  yes, I was wondering. Thanks. (n/t) (none)
  •  Abu Ghraib Photos: the media stirs (none)
    Well it appears that the failure of the Bush administration to release the next round of Abu Ghraib Photos is creating a little bit of a stir in the mass media.

    According to the New York Times
    Bush's Pentagon lawyers refuse to follow a court order to release Abu Ghraib Photos.  

    According to Newsday the Bush Admin. claims that the
    release of these photos might be "a safety threat to individuals."  We all know whose safety is at risk.

    The release of these photos and videos is very important.  Some might ask, "why?"  My answer: there is about 35% of this nation, diehard Bush sycophants, that need to realize what a complete and utter failure this president has been in leading the military, the Pentagon, and the nation.  Graphic, horrid, nightmarish, photos of torture perpetrated by American hands and paid for with American dollars is the only way to jar them enough into realizing how stupid they have been.

    A failed President= August 6 PDB, Bin Laden? DSM, WMD's? Abu Ghraib, Rove/Plame

    by Gator on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 07:23:35 PM PDT

  •  Am I too paranoid? (none)
    Is there any chance they can destroy or "lose" these images and then no one will ever see them again?  I'm asking honestly.  I had a moment where my blood ran a little cold imagining what they might be up to with their "redactions".  I am not asking if they would if they could (obvious answer), I'm asking if they can (is there only one set of photos and videotapes that they alone have possession of?) and does anyone think they might actually be planning to try something like this to save themselves?  An "unfortunate accident" with the negatives?

    "They'll never catch me, man. 'Cause I'm f*cking innocent." - Bottle Rocket

    by The New Politeness on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 07:42:41 PM PDT

    •  If their descriptions are getting leaked (none)
      to the media, it's a safe bet that backed up copies exist of what are presumably digital photos on someone's computer outside the Green Zone or the White House.  

      As Bruce Schneier the cryptologist remarks, digital copying of digital "stuff" can be done an infinite number of times without losing any of the information contained in the original.  So it's difficult if not impossible to "rein in" digital copies of anything, if they've been let loose "in the wild" at all.

      It may be that the original digital files are under lock and key in an underground bunker in a classified location, and that the only thing Senators have seen are glossy prints.  But that does not assure that exact copies of some or all of the digital files don't exist.

      •  Ill bet you (none)
        that Specialist Darby still has copies.  I know I would keep copies if I were him.  Sure, when he turned them over, he was probably instructed to turn over all copies, but if he were smart, he would have burned multiple copies.

        But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg.

        by calipygian on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 04:00:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  oh my god, I'm going to be sick (none)
    Fuck you, George W. Bush!!!! You and your fucking evil, black-hearted cronies have succeded in making me ashamed to be an American.

    "I don't believe in God, so I can't be saved..."--Mess, Ben Folds Five

    by still small voice on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 08:28:56 PM PDT

  •  crazy... (none)
    they are now requesting a 7(F) exemption from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act to withhold law enforcement-related information in order to protect the physical safety of individuals

    If only they were as concerned about CIA agents and--oh yeah--not torturing children... remember folks, in this White House, the crime is getting caught.

  •  Hey child rapers: (none)
    You can run, but you can't hide.

    I said, "hey, ho, way to go, Ohio" -- Chrissie Hynde

    by Alioth on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 10:09:29 PM PDT

  •  I'm worried (none)
    that the photos will come out (eight-year-old girls and all), and 49% of America will still support the president.

    I'm not convinced that it couldn't happen.

    Don't mess with me lady. I've been drinking with skeletons.

    by The Gryffin on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 12:09:00 PM PDT

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