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Enough.

I was silent when Kos started this shit because the whole "hippie" meme is well in the past and the remnants of that movement are merely an empty shell of what was happening then, plus he wasn't even CONCEIVED at the time, let alone a witness. What would he know?

I remained silent as the piling on started. Makes no difference to me, really. I was there, I saw it. I know damned well what happened.

But then I read lestatdelc's diary Saturday evening. "The ugly reality of hippies..." Where he essentially says that john kerry "had far more impact in swaying people that the Vietnam War was wrong and we needed to get out ASAP than `hippies'...because of his background, because of his demeanor, because of his approach, because of they way he presents."

And that did it for me.

Read on.

I got news for ya. EYEWITNESS news, I was there. In Cambridge. In Chicago for the convention. On the Lower East Side. For many years.  And I am STILL there, although I don't run that "hippie" game on people. (Old news dies young....)

john kerry barely EXISTED in the consciousness of America at the time. Lestatdelc got his impressions from what he read and was told by the kerry campaign, I am willing to bet. He got them from the same place that Kos got his. From corporate, media-generated revisionist history.

And if he WAS there...he missed the whole thing. (Lots of people did...all safe, all locked up in their own heads. In their own position. In their own privilege.)

"During the Vietnam War, John Kerry had far more impact in swaying people that the Vietnam War was wrong and we needed to get out ASAP than "hippies" even within the same Veterans Against the War group did."

What?

Oh.

I must have been living in a different country.

Because I don't even REMEMBER kerry from that period. Hardly remember the Veterans Against the War.

Impact?

Dylan. Tom Hayden. Malcolm X. Abbie Hoffman. Muhammad Ali. Joan Baez. John Lennon. Paul Krassner. Jimmy Breslin., Norman Mailer. William Burroughs. Underground newspapers by the hundreds.  A thousand THOUSAND freaks of all varieties saying "HELL no. We won't go.!!!" All OVER the media. All OVER the minds of the people. All over the DEMOCRATS, eventually.

And many of us did NOT go. WOULD not go. We knew what was happening out FRONT. kerry didn't. He went, so he's a HERO!!!??? That's why he went down in 2004. He was too dumb, too insulated by his own privilege during the Vietnam War to figure out what millions of us knew on the natch. Millions!!!.That the Vietnam War was wrong wrong wrong. Morally AND strategically. And his privilege blinded him to that until he went under fire. THEN he wised up. A little. A foxhole conversion. And came home and assumed his rightful place as a rich Yalie white boy child of privilege. At the front of the line where he just KNEW he belonged. Leading the proles to safety. Looking all soulful and posing for the cameras in his fatigues. Talking all Harvard and Yale to the select committees that were the same then as they are now. Full of shit. And then he went into politics. The rich boy's game, ESPECIALLY in Massachusetts. Cut his hair. Married well (TWICE!!!) and financed his career. Right to the top!!!. And then he was once again too dumb in 2004 to realize what millions of us ALSO knew then. Too insulated. That the Rats have to be faced down every time they try to run a Rat move. And that, just as in the '60s, the war was wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Morally, strategically and tactically as well. Only he DIDN'T wise up this time because no one was firing at him. Not bullets, anyway. So he lost. All Harvard and Yale even in defeat. "It's just a GAME, fellas. Harvard wins one year, Yale the next. I'm off to Gstaad for some skiing. Maybe a blue ribbon tour of the safer areas of Iraq while I'm at it. Better luck next year. Too bad about Ohio. Tally Ho!!!"

While the foxes he was SUPPOSED to have been hunting guarded the chicken coop yet again.

Fox News Flash: "Kerry Concedes!!! And now the news."

And lesatatdelc has the GALL to write this diary!!!

And all of these supposed "liberals" here GO FOR IT???

Man...THAT'S fucked up.

Makes me madder than hell.

And I'm not going to take it anymore.

Without the youth movement of the `60s and `70s...we would have had this right wing media-fascist government 30 years EARLIER.

This very blogosphere upon which we all so sagely write would have been nipped in the bud. Before it got too dangerous.

ENOUGH of this hippie bashing.

Wise up.

Sure.,..it's over. Now.

Honor thy ancestors.

Y'might learn something.

Charles

Originally posted to Charleslives on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 05:48 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  "Spare change???" (3.98)
    Tips?

    Recs?

    Us good for nothin' hippies just got to BEG for our props.

    Charles

    •  Beat it, Longhair! (4.00)
      Jes kidding.

      I'm sick of the hippy shit.  But you have a point.

      Anything's possible with Commander Cuckoo Bananas in charge. -Homer J. Simpson

      by Cheez Whiz on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:17:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Keyboarding couch hippies= (none)
        the 101at keyboarding chickenhawks in my opinion.

        I have emailed with hundreds of folks who are willing to sign an email petition but when it comes to showing up to present a public voice that might look like a protest I've gotten about 10% response rate.

        It sucks. It really sucks when 100 people commit to show up and 10 actually do it.

        Thank god for the 10% or the GOP could claim that all of America has rolled over, showing its belly in submission.

        A failed President= August 6 PDB, Bin Laden? DSM, WMD's? Abu Ghraib, Rove/Plame

        by Gator on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:17:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  sounds like... (4.00)
          ...you've got a problem with the so called 'left' in general, not hippies in particular.

          name calling is easy.  understanding people, finding ways to motivate them, to engage them with honor and respect, THATS hard.

          never underestimate social psychology

          by creativedissonance on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:12:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  just tired, (4.00)
            sometimes confused as to what motivates people to action.

            what it takes to get people to open their eyes.

            I was against the war in Iraq from day 1.  Doubted the claims of WMD from day 1.  Never fell for the "Bio-weapons trailers" or the "Mig Jet squirting Bio-weapons."

            I just can't believe all the lies told by this admin. and still there is very little outrage.

            A failed President= August 6 PDB, Bin Laden? DSM, WMD's? Abu Ghraib, Rove/Plame

            by Gator on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:33:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  No, just youngsters (4.00)
            who believe it happened the way today's media has shown it to them. I had stopped reading the original source when I came to here:

              ...john kerry "had far more impact in swaying people that the Vietnam War was wrong and we needed to get out ASAP than `hippies'...because of his background, because of his demeanor, because of his approach, because of they way he presents."

              for the same reasons that Charleslives got pissed off. And my take on it is that today's college journalism students are lost too, in the sense that only a handful (during an upper-level class poll, not just Intro 101) had even SEEN a copy of the Kent State photo or the naked-girl-running from Napalm photo. That doesn't include knowing what was going on in those pictures, they are not even in the memory banks of the people who should be taking up the gauntlet. "Napalm? What's that? People don't really do that anymore, right?"

            I came back this morning to read the rest and comment after seeing how big an issue this has become.

        •  It's a different crowd this time! (4.00)
          I went to one of the peace vigils a couple of weeks ago, and my neighbor and her family happened to walk by when coming from dinner at the restaurant we were standing in front of. they decided to stick around and join the vigil!  Then a few days later, I met her and another neighbor walking around our sleepy suburban street -- other neighbor wants to come to the next one.  

          I live in what I think is a rather conservative enclave, and none of us are long-haired hippy types (NOT that there's anything wrong with that!), but we're all moms against this war.

          •  Actually... (none)
            ...I posted a diary about this "End the Stupid Hippie Meme," and then I talked to my father who was there. The diary responses, and my fathers, confirmed for me:

            There were hippies protesting the war at concerts kind like Rage Against the Machine or whoever do that today on a much lower boil.
            But the anti-war movement then was regular people too.
            Like now, and as in any setting, people with purple hair or whatever just get noticed.

            Step outside of two-dimensional politics.

            by NewDirection on Mon Aug 29, 2005 at 10:18:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  The problem is... (3.94)
        That Vietnam was a war started by Democrats who were afraid of being accused of being soft on Communism.  So the anti-war movement aimed its fire at precisely those Democrats -- Johnson and Humphrey.  Forty years later the Democrats have still not recovered from the blunder that was Vietnam.  They cower in fear that someone will say they are soft on defense.  So what choice has a partisan democrat but to find a culprit to blame for this situation?  

        Picking "Hippies" though, isn't going to do it because too many of us here know (because we were there then) that long hair and a little pot do not a hippie make.  Hippies were a sub-cult of the counterculture.  The mass of people who attended anti-war marches, or resisted the draft or occupied their schools would not have described themselves (except in jest) as hippies.  Many of them opposed the war because it was an imperialist war and not out of pacifism. And it seems to me that by 1967 any anti-war demonstration could result in violence and this would tend to keep the "Hippies" away.

        So the people who think the Hippies screwed up everything really need to look a little deeper at maybe LBJ or Dow Chemical or Scumbag Nixon or any number of real live non-chimerical villians.  

         

      Mike Fink: How'll ya have it Crockett? Davy: Rough n' tumble. No holds barred.

      by slick riddles on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:18:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no, no, and no (3.44)
        you think kennedy and LBJ were scared of being called soft on defense? 15 years after FDR and Truman prosecuted WWII, and 10 years after Truman prosecuted the Korean War?

        they initiated and executed the war for their own reasons, certainly misguided, but not for some bs fear of being called soft.

        get your head out of the friggin sand.

        I believe in saving money. I believe in having a house. I believe in keeping things clean. I believe in exercising. www.walken2008.com

        by The Exalted on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:25:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Kennedy ran (4.00)
          on defense issues and won.
          •  'The missile gap' was promulgated by Kennedy (4.00)
            as a defense against the perception that he was a lightweight compared to Nixon (who had gone all over the world and had confronted Khrushchev).  The Repubs said Kennedy had no foreign policy chops to speak of, and would only be a tool of appeasement like his father, Joe Kennedy, the former Ambassador, certainly was.

            The missile gap was to dramatize that we were losing the Cold War against the Russians on the Repubs watch.  It was largely untrue.

            Plus, Kennedy didn't coin the phrase.  The Economist supposedly did.  Doesn't mean that the Brits were friendly to Kennedy, either.

            But, yeah.  The Dems had lost China to the Reds; Dems had allowed Commies in the State Department; allowed Russia to get the Bomb (the Rosenbergs).  Dems had allowed Stalin to get a foothold in Eastern Europe.  They were being blamed for being soft on Commies.

            An untypical Negro...since 1954.

            by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:50:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I believe the orginal term 'Missile Gap' (4.00)
              was coined by the Rockefeller Brothers Special Study Fund, set up in 1958 as a think tank as a vehicle for Nelson Rockefeller's Presidential aspirations.  The head of the foreign policy segment who developed the defense position papers was none other than Henry Kissinger.

              All this is from Rick Perlsteins "Before the Storm" which is a history of US politics from 1955 to 1965 and covers the rise of US conservatism under Barry Goldwater. Perlstein writes for the Nation, its a very insightful book about how to come out of the political wilderness.

        •  Unfortunately, you're wrong... (4.00)
          though you ought to be right. The 50's and 60's were all about macho and toughness. Military and otherwise. Read the langauge and the minutes of the cuba missile crisis. It's all there in sweat and blather. It's all about appearance and toughness and how we can't be weak.

          That's JFK and RKJ. Perhaps FDR didn't feel the need to prove his nuts, nor Truman, but I doubt it. Anyhow, don't forget JFK and ilk were coming in after Republican Ike Eisenhower. It was a horrible time for the American Psyche in general. Read Delilo's Libra.

           

          •  Truman didn't need to prove his nuts? (4.00)
            the guy who dropped TWO atomic bombs?

            Every gun that is made...signifies in a final sense a theft from those who are hungry and not fed - Ike

            by Ianua Ditis on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:08:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The history is there.... (4.00)
              they absolutely called Truman soft of communism.  That just goes to show you that it's not a matter of being demonstrably tough enough, it's a matter of political hits, make Democrats look like their unworth and unAmerican.  They did do it Truman and they did it to Kennedy.

              "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

              by Cathy on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:13:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Soft ON Communism, (twice I erred )n/t (none)

                "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

                by Cathy on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:13:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Sad to say, Truman gave the Russians (none)
                our atomic secrets. He meant it as a goodwill gesture right after the war, I guess. Now that we're allies and all. My grandfather, no stauncher Republican of the time, hated him to his deathbed for that. I thought Roosevelt and Truman were demons from hell until I learned another side of the story at school.

                So, in spite of dropping the bomb, this is why he was accused of being soft on Communism. Perhaps the Soviets would've gotten the secrets by spying anyway, but Truman's actions has serious consequences to this day. Once it gets in the hands of the terrorists, any terrorists, who knows where we'll be?

                Who knows where we are, anyway?

                •  The atomic bomb wasn't much of a secret (4.00)
                  It only took us a few years to develop it, and that's before we even knew it was possible.

                  Once it was known to be possible, discovering it was pretty easy.

                  All you gotta do is - hey, who's there?

                  (thud sound)(dial tone)

                  But seriously...the Rosenbergs were made the patsies, for something that any interested nation with resources and scientists could also make.

                  "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

                  by jbeach on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 01:04:14 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Truman did no such thing (none)
                  The Russians were working on the bomb themselves. The received substantial help from Julius and Ethel Rosenberg who were caught, tried as spies and executed.
          •  You might want to read (4.00)
            Graham Allison's Essence of Decision regarding the backchannel negotiations between Bobby and Kruschev or some of Alan Whiting's stuff.  

            It's pertinent to remember that JFK had made a deal with Kruschev - that U.S. missles would be removed from Turkey - and that what precipitated Soviet placement of missles in Cuba was that Kruschev thought Kennedy had screwed him on it.  The Turkish missle batteries had NOT been removed as per Kennedy's order and the DoD had been lying to him, telling him that they were gone.  

            There was, indeed, a great deal of macho posturing for public and political consumption, but there was a whole other side of things - mutual efforts to maintain a balance and preserve some form of peace.

            Beware those who claim to be "The Chosen", for they have already led themselves astray and seek to lead you down the same path. There are no "Chosen."

            by sxwarren on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:44:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  other side (4.00)
              There was, indeed, a great deal of macho posturing for public and political consumption, but there was a whole other side of things

              The "whole other side of things" is completely absent today.  I recently read Bobby Kennedy's account of the Cuban Missile Crisis, and it's almost a line-by-line indictment of Bush/Cheney's Iraq policy.  Or lack of policy, rather, since it's purely politics.  

              Just because we can, that doesn't mean we should.

              by Simplify on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:01:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  They absolutely called Truman and Kennedy.... (4.00)
          soft of communism and treasonist.  The same crap they throw at us today.  That's how long they've been doing it.

          "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

          by Cathy on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:42:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  EXALTED (4.00)
            my what a breathtakingly assinine impression you've made in just a few sentences.  I think I counted at least six comments backing my read of the situation but let me just add that the 50s anti-communism was all about bashing the Democrats.  It put guys like Kennedy and LBJ in a serious bind.  

             BTW what does this "get your head out of the friggin sand" mean am I like an ostrich? Is that what you're getting at?  Might I suggest you get your head out of your "friggin'" ass.  Exalted indeed!

          Mike Fink: How'll ya have it Crockett? Davy: Rough n' tumble. No holds barred.

          by slick riddles on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:27:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We also had the dem version of neo-con (4.00)
            McNamara and his ilk absolutely believed that once communism was installed in a country it would never go away.  They had article after article in the MSM touting that "fact".  People bought it.  I bought it.  Now I know it was a lie, but I think it was a lie that became truth to the folks that told it.
        •  JFK - soft on communism (4.00)
          JFK was very sensitive about being labeled "soft on communism" by the GOP, especially after the Bay of Pigs fiasco. This is one of the reasons, if not the main reason, for his part in escalating the US involvement during the early years of our Viet Nam misadventure. His administration decided that we had to make a stand in Viet Nam.

          Source: A Bright Shining Lie by Neil Sheehan

          •  Bullshit (3.50)


            Kennedy was withdrawing from Vietnam.


            The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war.
            We do not want a war. We do not now expect a war.
            This generation of Americans has already had enough, more than enough, of war and hate and oppression. We shall be prepared if others wish it. We shall be alert to try to stop it. But we shall also do our part to build a world of peace where the weak are safe and the strong are just. We are not helpless before that task or hopeless of its success.

            Confident and unafraid, we labor on. Not toward a strategy of annihilation, but toward a strategy of peace."
                   -President John Kennedy, June 10, 1963


            "Let us, if we can, step back from the shadows of war and seek out the way of peace. And if that journey is one thousand miles, or even more, let history record that we, in this land, at this time, took the first step."
                -John Kennedy, July 1963 ( on concluding the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty )


            "All planning will be directed towards preparing RVN (Republic of Vietnam) forces for the withdrawal of all U.S. special assistance units and personnel by the end of calendar year 1965."
                   -John Kennedy, Oct 4, 1963



            "Today the expenditure of billions of dollars every year on weapons acquired for the purpose of making sure we never need to use them is essential to keeping the peace. But surely the acquisition of such idle stockpiles, which can only destroy and never create, is not the only, much less the most efficient, means of assuring peace. For we are both devoting massive sums of money to weapons that could be better devoted to combating ignorance, poverty, and disease.

            In short, both the United States and its allies, and the Soviet Union and its allies, have a mutually deep interest in a just and genuine peace and in halting the arms race.
                   -President John Kennedy, June 10, 1963

            •  oh c'mon man. i was just skimming down this (4.00)
              diary and saw this.  I was about to write who my friends were that died there.  My high school class was '64, and dude I have dead friends who signed up.  I ended up with a scholarship, or I would have been with them.  You don't know what you are talking about!!  Cut the partisan bullshit!!  This current war in Iraq is BS, but I can't believe your comment.  Look at the facts about Vietnam,,, and not the BS political statements.  Honestly, I'm shaking with outrage at your ,,,,comments.  Strong message to follow!!!!!!!!!
              •  You are totally wrong and clearly don't know jack! (none)


                This was an internal directive and memorandum.
                Not "bs political statements" (your words).


                "All planning will be directed towards preparing RVN (Republic of Vietnam) forces for the withdrawal of all U.S. special assistance units and personnel by the end of calendar year 1965."
                      -John Kennedy, Oct 4, 1963


                Kennedy signed a directive in October, 1963 to begin a phased withdrawal of troops. This is documented and an historical fact. He was completely opposed to ground warfare in Vietnam and was withdrawing the advisors. There would have been no damn Vietnam War had Kennedy lived.


                The massive buildup for the Vietnam War did not start until the phony Gulf of Tonkin (staged) incident and surrounding publicity.

                That is when Congress was suckered into letting Lyndon Johnson send over hundreds of thousands of ground troops for ground warfare in Vietnam based on false propaganda.

                Johnson was the War-Hawk.
                Johnson is the one who started it. And Nixon kept it going on and on and on.

                And, i were merely partisan than I would not be blaming both Johnson and Nixon, but just Nixon alone.

                •  Yeah, right. Documented, huh? The only (none)
                  thing documented is the 57,000 guys killed there.  Can't you figure it out??  It's what you do man, not what you reflect on, what you contemplate, etc....
                  •  You are wrong. (none)
                    Stop trolling ...

                    The massive U.S. land-based War campaign and military expansion began after Congress passed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution in 1964.  That is a historical fact.

                    Kennedy was gone by then.
                    He had been removed from office by then.

                    The 57,000 deaths that you refer to happened after Johnson put the damn 600,000 combat troops there and Nixon kept the failed war going on and on and on for another 6 years.

                    That is what produced the 57,000 deaths.

                    Kennedy rejected and resisted the calls for major combat operations.

                    And he had specifically, called for the withdrawal of the special assistant units in the year of 1963, and, with all units returned home by 1965.

                    The President's order to reduce the special assistants and military personnel by 1,000 in 1963 and according to a phased withdrawal schedule until they were all home was in effect on the day he went to Dallas in Nov. 1963.

                    Those orders were reversed by Lyndon Johnson
                    Stop blaming the wrong man.

                    Troll ....

            •  Dear derek F'ing larsson, you don't (none)
              know what the cr.. you are talking about.  Would you just look at the f',,,ing facts.  I can't tell you how outraged I am at your stupid f'ing, groundless intellectual comment, that JFK didn't initiate a war that my buddies died in.  You are some kind of freak, or what!!?  Where are you from, a'hole?
              •  Lyndon Johnon started the invasion (none)
              •  Gulf of Tonkin (none)

                You are the one who sadly has no idea what you are talking about.

                The massive buildup for the Vietnam War did not start until the phony Gulf of Tonkin (staged) incident and surrounding publicity.

                That is when Congress was suckered into letting Lyndon Johnson send over hundreds of thousands of ground troops for ground warfare in Vietnam based on false propaganda.

                Johnson was the War-Hawk.

                Kennedy signed a directive in October, 1963 to begin a phased withdrawal of troops. This is documented and an historical fact. He was completely opposed to ground warfare in Vietnam and was withdrawing the advisors.

                "All planning will be directed towards preparing RVN (Republic of Vietnam) forces for the withdrawal of all U.S. special assistance units and personnel by the end of calendar year 1965.">br>        -John Kennedy, Oct 4, 1963


                There would have been no damn Vietnam War had Kennedy lived.

                Johnson is the one who started it. And Nixon kept it going on and on and on.



                •  I disagree (none)
                  Kennedy took the US from a couple of dozen soldiers in Vietnam to 16,000. Kennedy's policy was to keep Vietnam from going communist; Johnson just carried on that tradition.

                  As for that directive, well, the goal throughout the entire war was to have South Vietnamese soldiers defend the RVN. The fact is that the ARVN continued to deteriorate after Kennedy's death. The communists probably would have taken over the country in 1966 had Johnson not intervened. Kennedy probably would have done the same.

                  •  Not true.. (none)


                    Not true ...

                    The Vietnam expansion into a massive ground combat and air war military campaign began with Lyndon Johnson, following the Gulf of Tonkin resolution.  

                    Trying to blame Kennedy for that is pure nonsense.

                    During Kennedy's term, initially he added to the special assistant personal that was there, but then began to pull back.  He had growing public unease about what was going on and talked with Gen. MacArthur (Korean War) who advised him not to get into a land war.  Kennedy gave very clear signals on Vietnam in 1963.  He signed NASAM 263 (National Security Action Memorandum) and also documented an internal memo with the specific directives to bring home the special assistants units (starting in 1963 itself), and in fact, to bring them all of them home by 1965.

                    That documented action, is totally incompatible with the idle theorizing that Kennedy was somehow moving towards a massive escalation.  He was not!

                    He not only was rejecting the calls for a massive military campaign, he was also calling for what little personnel (special assistants) that we had in there to be sent back home.
                    Now, if that isn't clear -- I don't no what is.  He was killed shortly after this time (Nov. 1963).

                    This was just not some abstract faraway goal, it was a Presidental Order for  phased withdrawal.  A withdrawal order isn't some abstract thing.  It means the units are leaving.
                    He called for the first 1,000 units home by Christmas Dec. 1963 and the rest home by 1965.

                    He forced Sec. of Defense and Robert McNamara and Gen. Maxwell Taylor to announce a schedule for total withdrawal from Vietnam (against their own ideology).

                    Futhermore, Kennedy told Walter Cronkite: "We can help them, we can give them equipment, we can send some men out there as advisors, but they [ people of South Vietnam ]  have to win it, the people of Vietnam against the Communists. In the final analysis it is their war.  They are the ones who have to win it or lose it."



                    So, Kennedy's words and official documented orders and actions are quite consistent and clear.
                    There was going to be no massive U.S. based land war in Vietnam had Kennedy lived.

                    It was not our civil war and Kennedy knew that.



      •  kennedy was very much a hawk......n/t (4.00)

        There are many who lust for the simple answers of doctrine or decree. They are on the left and right. They are terrorists of the mind. -- A. Bartlett Giamatti

        by FemiNazi on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:08:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bullshit!! (2.50)


          Kennedy was withdrawing from Vietnam.


          The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war. We do not want a war. We do not now expect a war. This generation of Americans has already had enough, more than enough, of war and hate and oppression. We shall be prepared if others wish it. We shall be alert to try to stop it. But we shall also do our part to build a world of peace where the weak are safe and the strong are just. We are not helpless before that task or hopeless of its success. Confident and unafraid, we labor on. Not toward a strategy of annihilation, but toward a strategy of peace."
                -President John Kennedy, June 10, 1963
          "Let us, if we can, step back from the shadows of war and seek out the way of peace. And if that journey is one thousand miles, or even more, let history record that we, in this land, at this time, took the first step."
                -John Kennedy, July 1963 ( on concluding the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty )
          "All planning will be directed towards preparing RVN (Republic of Vietnam) forces for the withdrawal of all U.S. special assistance units and personnel by the end of calendar year 1965."
                -John Kennedy, Oct 4, 1963
          "Today the expenditure of billions of dollars every year on weapons acquired for the purpose of making sure we never need to use them is essential to keeping the peace. But surely the acquisition of such idle stockpiles, which can only destroy and never create, is not the only, much less the most efficient, means of assuring peace. For we are both devoting massive sums of money to weapons that could be better devoted to combating ignorance, poverty, and disease. In short, both the United States and its allies, and the Soviet Union and its allies, have a mutually deep interest in a just and genuine peace and in halting the arms race.
                -President John Kennedy, June 10, 1963
          •  Don't know for sure, (none)
            but some say that's why he was murdered.  I only look at Kennedy with the eyes of a teenager.  I graduated in '65.  But I'll say one thing.  He was articulate and smart.  He could deliver a speech, and he could ad lib at press conferences.  And he had plenty of press conferences.  Not like this ignorant doofus we have now.
            •  True (4.00)

              Kennedy was doing several things simulataneously
              in the year of 1963 following the Cuban Missile Crisis incident (which almost resulted in all out Nuclear Warfare):

              1.  He rejected further calls to invade Cuba
              2.  He vowed that there would be no more CIA Bay of Pigs operations.
              3.  He created the World's first Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and (pushed it through against the advice of the joint chiefs and many in his cabinet)
              4.  He signed National Security Action Memorandum 263 and also wrote an internal memorandum (excerpt: shown in previous post) that called for the phased withdrawal of all the special assistants, and, needless to say was dead-set against open ground warfare or further escalation.
              5. He installed the Hot-Line hook-up directly to the Soviet Union to help avert false perceptions and messages from interests that sought war.
              6. He gave speeches that called for a halt to the arms race between the United States and the Soviet Union.

              Needless to say, the very powerful Warfare & Business Interests that are enshrined in this country did not care for Kennedy's direction.

              Despite his murder, Kennedy's vision does still show the pathway for what this country's foreign policy  should look like if it wants to create more allies than enemies or terrorists.

              Kennedy resisted the call for an invasion on Cuba, which is just 90 miles off Florida, when they had undeniable photographic proof that Cuba had Nuclear Missiles, i.e. WMD

              He sought a diplomatic solution to save lives.

              Why can't we learn from history?



               

      •  We were carrying water for the French (3.20)
        Most people forget that the Japanese accomplished one very important thing during world war 2.  They threw the white man off of the continent of Asia.

        The French, humiliated duriing WWII, wanted to show that they were a major player in the world. decided to be the first to return.

        This was the genesis of the Viet Nam war.  

        Dien Bien Phu was their Waterloo.

        Ho chi Minh was a nationalist, who admired the American model of government.  He turned to the communists for support when we supported the French.

        Fuckin French......... again.

        Mon Dieu

        If we're dumb. Then God is dumb. And maybe a little ugly on the side.

        by Ghost of Frank Zappa on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:24:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ho chi minh (none)
          was definitely a Communist and not just a nationalist. anyone who thinks otherwise is rather naive about what his intentions were. ask any vietnamese in the US if ho chi minh was just a nationalist who just "happened" to seek help from teh Commies. the communists systematically killed all the nationalists who fought with them against the French if they didnt buy into their warped ideology. i must admit, after listening to my Vietnamese friends (who are still pissed at the hippies and antiwar left), i do have a better appreciation of just how complicated Vietnam was--it wasnt a matter of black and white.
          •  Talking to your Vietnamese friends (4.00)
            in the U.S. is as select a group as talking to Iraqis in the U.S.  

            I agree, Vietnam and every other war is not a matter of black and white.  Sadly, it is usually a matter of green.

            •  give me a break (none)
              there is actually a wide variety of views within the vietnamese community--esp. the younger generation who aren't so knee jerk anti-commie. but if i had seen communists kill my family or been sent to a re-education camp, i'd still be pretty pissed too. i now understand their point of view--esp. their hostility to John Kerry. it's fine that Kerry spoke out against the human rights abuses of the Americans, but to completely ignore the vast killings and murders on the part of the Communists and talk about how bad we were as if the Commies were angels who didn't also burn villages and rape women.
              •  Unfair conflation of Kerry's stance and comments (none)
                Part of this is due to Kerry's inexplicable difficulty in speaking in short sentences. But the "Winter Soldier" report was about showing that the rampant war crimes in Viet Nam, were the results of policy set far above the heads of soldiers.

                The prosecution of the crimes was always stopping at the lowest ranks, and they were always presented as lone bad apples - Abu Ghraib, anyone? Kerry wanted to put the heat on the brass - both to stop the war, and to see the crimes punished all the way to the top.

                Unfortunately the salacious aspect of the war crimes as brought out, had the effect of tarnishing a generation of 'Nam veterans as psychos...which then further resulted in Kerry being paintable by the right-wing as the cause of this tarnishing.

                None of which makes the Communist killings any better. I suspect there would have been far fewer of such killings if we had not gone over there in the first place - but, that's all hypothetical. I'm just saying Kerry's intent was not to badmouth the US or whitewash the communists by comparison - his intent was to stop the war and follow the crimes all the way to the top.

                "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

                by jbeach on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 01:14:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  step back and look at this again (none)
                What I'm saying is that expatriates are not representative of the population as a whole, it is like saying that Cuban Americans are representative of all Cubans. It's a false abstraction.
            •  a matter of green! (none)
              yesyes.  bank of america, anyone?
          •  Ho first sought aid from the US (4.00)
            He even had his Viet Minh craft a declaration of independence using language from the American Declaration of Independence.  He begged the US to back him against the French.  But Truman brought the French army back into Indochina on US troop ships, to reconquer Vietnam after the locals (under Ho) had driven the Japanese out of most of their territory. Some historians have said that Roosevelt, who was far more anti-colonialist than Truman, never would have let the French back in. Ho Chi Minh might still have established a communist regime, but it would have been far less brutal and deadly than what we got instead.

            We can't rewind history and see how a different choice might have worked out; after 30 years of war (1945-1975, even longer if you count the war against the Japanese), the North took bloody and brutal revenge against the South when it won.  Your Vietnamese friends are almost certainly the children of the South Vietnamese regime, and in the minds of the people of the north, they were the collaborators with the Americans, who dropped far more bombs on North Vietnam than was dropped on all of Europe and Japan during WW2.

            •  Supposedly our diss started earlier than that... (4.00)
              while in Paris, Ho went to meet with President Wilson and give him a letter asking him to influence the French to give up their colonial adventure in Indochina.  Of course, Wilson refused to do no such thing or to meet with Ho, who came very respectfully in a rented top hat and tails for the occasion.

              Ho wasn't the only one who got this kind of treatment.  Other people of color from colonized territories in Africa and Asia tried to meet with the white world leaders to reason with them, especially Wilson.  However, Wilson was a Southerner and white supremacist who viewed a special screening of the film, "Birth of a Nation," at the White House and called it truth and D.W. Griffith a genius.  

              It would have been inconceivable for Wilson to listen to reason from Ho.  Wilson would not have questioned white Europeans carving up Africa and Asia; in fact, we had acquired a few territories of our own at that time, namely the Philippines.

              It is said that not long after his dismissal by American authorities in 1919, Ho gravitated towards the new Communist government in Russia.

              An untypical Negro...since 1954.

              by blksista on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:59:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  There's a lot of talk about who and what Ho was (4.00)
            and besides, the Vietnamese exiles are even divided over whether the U.S. should recognize or normalize relations with the Communist government there--which like China has embraced capitalism.  Any straying from this 'party line' are subject to lynch mobs or murders.  Its going to take a couple of generations before this kind of thing ends and people can talk, just the same as the Cuban Americans.  And I will grant you that some of those same Vietnamese friends of yours would admit that Thieu and his government was patently corrupt.

            Ho Chi Minh didn't happen to seek help from the Communists; he took the road that was open.  Had we taken up his cause when he was admiring of and gravitating towards the United States, perhaps 57,000 guys would still be here.

            The killings, the forced collectivization, the boat people, the struggles of the exiles...I acknowledge the suffering that these people faced.  But we helped.  It may take another 20 years before we have even more facts about this era.

            An untypical Negro...since 1954.

            by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:39:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Ho Chi Minh came to the US first, we rebuffed him (none)
            It's in the historical record. Read "A Bright Shining Lie".

            "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

            by jbeach on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 01:06:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Ho Chi Min turned to the communists (none)
            only after seeking and being denied help from the Truman administration. Admittedly, Truman was a little bit busy at the end of WWII but Ho Chi Min, like the Iraqi people, could have been an ally instead of an adversary.

            Perhaps you should read Stanley Karnow.

            24"x18" poster (PDF) by NewCon06, America Stands With Cindy!

            by nuttymango on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:25:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  "Dumb All Over" ... (none)
          thanx for reminding me.  Helps to explain all these feelings of deja vu.
      •  not all hippies were non-violent (4.00)
        and some of us were quite pragmatic. Still are, too.

        don't always believe what you think...

        by claude on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:43:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you Charles (4.00)
      I missed whatever Kos said this time but I've gotten the gist of it I think.

      I was just youngster at the time but I grew up in Chicago and I remember a wee bit of it too. I jumped in and dug trenches in front of Rockafeller Chapel at the U of C. I got sent packing by the college kids as they donned gas masks while a line of Chicago police approached. My first campaign action was passing out buttons for McGovern at the local shopping center and I remember getting knocked on my ass by some old guy that I gather wasn't a McGovern fan.

      I was too young to be a hippy but that it who and how I grew up and I never questioned being one when I grew up. LOL

      So here we are... another war... another mess... another idiocy... only this time it really matters and there is no simple answer like there was to Vietnam. Leaving Iraq won't end it. Staying won't either.

      So now I'm the organizer planning peace rallies for next month. So I now I watch very carefully how my granddaughter learns and reacts to the events of day. She is about the age now I was in those days.

      Funny how the world turns around.

      "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

      by Andrew C White on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:38:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  damn hippy.. (4.00)
        ..keep it up! down with the fascists.  ORANGE REVOLUTION!

        i wonder if people that take time off around the big rallies get in trouble by some corporations... i want to go to the one after the upcoming little 9/11 bushit... hope i can pull it off.. from those of us who wish we had jobs to contribute more, thank you for being an organizer!!!!

        Jesus: "Destroy this Temple" - Gospel of John

        by The Gnostic on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:38:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Right On, Bro! (4.00)
      Those who lived it remember it differently than most of the spew here recently.

      Embrace diversity. Not everyone is intelligent.

      by FLDemJax on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 07:51:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Amen... and here's your props.... (4.00)
      [snip] ENOUGH of this hippie bashing. [snip]

      Amen, brother, AMEN! {I may be one of the youngest hippies, but I hear ya!}...

      If I could have given you a '10,' I would have... ;~}

      I Support the Separation of Church and Hate...
      Rev Denise Michel
      revdenisemichel@yahoo.com

      by rev denise michel on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 07:54:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Preach it from the mountaintops, brother! (4.00)
      Maybe if Shrubbie starts drafting the kiddies, they'll tune in, turn on, and drop out.

      What the hell was wrong with the hippies, anyway?  They embodied the truest American ideals -- life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, civic participation, standing up for what's right, etc.

      People who dislike hippies are a bunch of ignorant jerks.

      Peace and love forever.  

      Be civil to all; sociable to many; familiar with few; friend to one; enemy to none. -B. Franklin

      by ChuckLin on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 08:09:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Damb Straight (none)

      You all have to admit, if all the crazies were not around life would have less purpose

      by genethefiend on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:38:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And At Woodstock (4.00)
    And despite what everyone said from the stage, you ate the brown acid.

    The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

    by Dana Houle on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 05:49:59 PM PDT

    •  the widowpane was better N/t (4.00)

      http://dumpjoe.com/

      by ctkeith on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 05:55:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's threads like these... (4.00)
        ... that make me feel my years.

        Or rather, my lack of them.

        :)

        I can't decide which is more depressing: people my age (30) having to live through stuff we're living through today because the last generation couldn't manage to fix it, or people of the Vietnam generation having to live through the same stuff all over again because nobody could manage to fix it.

        Meanwhile, while we're talking about war, peace, and humanity, a rerun of Larry King interviewing of Pamela Anderson is on CNN.  Which, I suppose, relates directly to my previous paragraph.

        •  Take a lesson, sonny. (4.00)
          It isn't that we "couldn't manage to fix it," or that we failed.  Actually, our big mistake was easing up - because we thought we won; and we thought winning was forever.

          It's terrible to be immortal and young, and to be confronted with the unassailable truth that the reason things are cliches, is because they're true.

          So this cliche's for you, because we weren't wise enough:

          The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

          JF

          •  Yah. (4.00)
            Don't think I was placing blame.  The people I blame are people who started this appalling war.  I was just encapsulating the bitterness of a generation having to spend more time cleaning up after itself than trying to do good work that needs to be done.  

            Still, even if we parcel out blame amongst ourselves, we've failed you far more than you have ever failed us, because we let it happen again.  We didn't learn enough.  We didn't vote enough.

            The thing that scares me more than anything else is that in 2035, I'll be having this conversation with my son.  I don't want that to happen.

            •  Don't feel bad. (4.00)
              Don't apologize.

              Don't blame.

              Win.

              JF

            •  That's exactly where we want to be... (3.87)
              because if everyone has there head into the next generation. Just one kid that they've got their eye on, no way they'd let this stupid war go down. What would they do? Wise up.

              Energy self-sustainability would become the primary goal of every adult in this country.

              That would take care of must of our foreign policy problems almost immediately:
              It would solve terrorism (because OBL has an agenda in the ME that has zilch to do with the US--and I don't care so long as he doesn't drop more airplanes on our towers).
              It would solve global warming (if we are lucky and choose a reasonably clean solution).

              It would solve about 65% of our foreign policy issues (outside of 'free trade' no other single issue ties up as much energy and attention as energy policy (ie, oil)--getting this right frees up diplomatic resources to get a lot else right as well.)

              It would be the right thing to do ethically, because it would not only benefit us in a huge way, it would be the perfect example for the rest of the world.

              But I can guarantee you, so long as chimp head is in office, it will never happen.

              •  Until the power companies can figure out how (none)
                keep solar technology out of the hands of individuals, and until they can figure out how to charge us for it, we will never have clean, safe, renewable energy....

                Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official... ~Theodore Roosevelt

                by caseynm on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 07:11:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  or, worse case scenario... (4.00)
              ...military state erupts before 2006 elections, after another faux terrorist attack, and liberal dissenters are hunted down and imprisoned, or if Bushco chooses the full Hitler approach, mass executions ensue (see the future 700 Club for details and rationale, i.e. since the fascist repubs can't fight 4 or 5 major wars and imprison liberal dissenters at the same time... )unlikely yes, impossible no.  not from the same slave-owner, native-american genocide, prison-torture paramilitary inbred motherfuckers that already have Nazi policies... just look at the Holy Drug Inquisition and all its collatoral damage...

              Jesus: "Destroy this Temple" - Gospel of John

              by The Gnostic on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:47:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Do you really think (none)
                the military would back Bush at this point?  He's gotten a lot of them really pissed off.  And I don't think his poll ratings would go up if there's another attack.  I think people would blame him.
                •  he's the commander in chief.... (4.00)
                  ....and they're used to taking orders. sure they'll back him.

                  There are many who lust for the simple answers of doctrine or decree. They are on the left and right. They are terrorists of the mind. -- A. Bartlett Giamatti

                  by FemiNazi on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:15:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  They'll back him only so far (none)
                    The military's oath is to the constitution.  Although this war is wrong, it doesn't seem to be unconstitutional.  Locking up American dissenters clearly is.  Any step like that would cause chaos in the military and I can guarantee you that a huge portion, if not the majority, of the military would refuse to perform that task.  I know I would.

                    "I think war is a dangerous place." - George Bush

                    by Nameless Soldier on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:40:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sadly, I don't think that's true of the USAF. (none)
                      My nine years, including 4 at the USAF Academy, lead me to conclude that there is a dangerous culture of disregard for Constitutional principles in the USAF.

                      I left in 1994. Maybe things have gotton better.

                      24"x18" poster (PDF) by NewCon06, America Stands With Cindy!

                      by nuttymango on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:33:54 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  now you can vote plenty! (none)
              thanks to Diebold, et al.
          •  Yeah... (4.00)
            that's about right. I've thought of it as being a big of a hangover. I think most of the country had a hangover through the 80's.

            Everyone 'cept the radical right wing that is. They spent the 80's laying the groundwork for all the glorious achievements they've managed in the last five years.

            So we've shaken off the hangover and those of us with any gas left in our tanks and a bunch of young folks for whom the 60's are a history lesson they don't get taught in school need to do it all over again.

            Eternal vigilance, yeah.

            Never stop. Never let up.

            "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

            by Andrew C White on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:45:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  That is absolutely ... (4.00)
            ..dead on correct.

            We THOUGHT we'd "won". We didn't. We were co-opted and placated. Many of us were single-issue people and picked up and went home after we "won".

            It's too bad we cannot learn from the past.

            "How many times must the cannonballs fly.....?"

            Myself, I'm never at a loss for a cliché....

            •  This a favorite poem (not by me): (4.00)

              Where we all went

              We're still right here
              We're the lady in the laundrymat
              Folding her clothes
              We're the old guy at the register
              Making your change
              We're sitting around at the bar
              Some of us
              Talkin' 'bout the weather.

              We're still here
              and we're just waiting
              For you to make
              That one . . . big . . . mistake.

              -- G.T. Regier

              "In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

              by LithiumCola on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:56:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Failure of the Boomers (4.00)
            Many Baby Boomers, present company perhaps excepted, have spent most of the last three decades unnecessarily apologizing for the '60s and making idols out of their fathers' generation (Tom Brokaw's The Greatest Generation might be the ultimate emblem of this).

            Much of what was gained in that era has been lost as a result. For example, a healthy distrust of war has been replaced by old chestnuts that we thought we had done away with in 1918, let alone 1968 (My friend, you would not tell with such high zest / To children ardent for some desperate glory, / The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
             / Pro patria mori.
            )

            I reserve my anger and disappointment not for hippies, but for far too many ex-hippies and what they have become in the meantime.

            "This war is an ex-parrot." - The Editors

            by GreenSooner on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:39:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  This is the single best comment (none)
            on this entire thread, and I'd give you a 100 for it if I could.

            It's also terrible to be mortal and older, and knowing that you may have to spend the rest of your limited remaining time and energy fighting the same fight you thought you won 30 years ago. And with a good chance that you may not win at all this time.

            I think of that cliche - Every. Single. Day.

            As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

            by sidnora on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 09:03:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  pathetic or convenient? (4.00)
          Socratic, I am the tale end of your generation, and I have seen this generation embrace, laud and wrap a shrowd of romanticism around the "hippie/vietnam" era.

          For what ever reason we hang on to the heroes as well as the villians from that time as if in testament to unfulfilled poetic justice. Is the real blame that we are the progeny of a generation that  couldn't leave neverland, and therefore have both  'Peter Pan' syndrome as well as a real need to bring closure to discretions of the past? Are we a generation walking the borderland of identity, while still paying toll for the prior?

          If any of this is true for our generation, and we are paying the dues for our parents- emotionally, socially, and ideologically, think of what is going  to happen to our children. As f*^&ed up as we are,   we are nothing compared to the recompence that the children of tommorow face in light of the indiscretions made today.

          We are the era of buy-now-pay-later. This is the  first time in the history of this country that people live extensivly beyond their means because  gross credit is exteneded with little regard on the part of consumers if they'll ever be able to  afford the principle, let alone interest. We buy in to the consumption principle because what drives us is the perception that in order to have self worth, we must submit to what pop-culture demands. That in itself is not a new phenomenon, but the ability to indulge that impulse is. It is the 'new every two' mentality that spans technology, cars, homes, diet-fads, and occupations.

          I bring this up in great digression from the original post b/c it is so much greater than economics. Living and behaving this way economically has made it palatable to digest the more heinous mortgaging of the future acts of this administration. This war is costing our children not only in economic terms ($11,300 per household  b/c of tax cuts today to finance the war of tommorow), but worse, the psychology of children who will grow up with mentally absent parents, an  enviroment that was forgiving the first time around, but that has little room for  error or prolongment of abuse, an international fracture of world trust, the dissolvent of status in science and technology and worst of all, no investment in to the public education system for the prospect that out poor offspring will be smart enough to fix all the shit we've stepped into (again).

          My point is, in a round about way, vindicate all  that you have said, with ten-fold the gravity.  We are still paying for the mistakes made in the Vietnam era, and using them as an excuse for our ignorance. However, whatever grace this counrty had the first time around was exhausted then. We don't have the luxury on any front of commiting  them again, and yet here we go again. At least that generation had Dylan, Baez, Malcom X, MLK  ect. as genesis factors, and vehicles for discontent. We are too late in the game, and  too cliche to use the same tag-lines as they did, and not make any progress.

          Please, please wake up and find a new solution for a different generation, as well as for the next.

          Texdem21      

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell

          by txdem21 on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:55:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I liked the orange sunshine. (none)

        Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

        by bumblebums on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:23:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  windowpane (none)
        all you needed was 18 to 24 hours with absolutely no responsibility.  then hold on.

        If we're dumb. Then God is dumb. And maybe a little ugly on the side.

        by Ghost of Frank Zappa on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:26:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  asdf: anyone else ever think a lot of our (4.00)
        "leadership" issues would be solved if we could just manage to actually slip a few hits of that stuff into the White House kool-aid, I mean seriously?

        I've said it before and I'll say it again: the world would be a better place if someone could just slip God Bush n' Cheney a hit of acid.

    •  lol that reminds me of what my brother (4.00)
      told me about Watkins Glen. He was there, and ate acid and didn't get down from this tree through the entire concert (or so he said). My sister remembers waking up to Jimi Hendrix on a Thursday morning at Woodstock. I was just a few years behind them, but I have never thought of the label "hippie" as being a negative image-not in our family. I have a son that would consider it a compliment. Two other sons that would probably not.
      What we are really talking about here is whats the most effective way to get a message across to the millions that don't think the way one does, or that don't hardly think at all. When someone figures that out, they will be at the top of the heap. Until then, saying that hippies are ineffective is pointless. They are no more or less than any other group trying to get a message across.
      •  my dad woke up to that morning set with the (none)
        walls reverberating in the sound truck he was sleeping in, with his girfriend of the time.

        the word hippy is interesting in that's meaning has expanded to cover a lot more people than originally.  my mother insists she is not nor has ever been a hippy.  in her mind hippies were the ones living in communes.  she really has no hippy credentials: she didnt go to UC Santa Cruz when it first started, she certantly didnt spend 6 months in Indian on a grant to look for mushrooms traveling around on third class rail and she didnt spend a year cooking at a Buddist monistary in Berkley. :P

        Yeah the revolution starts now..So what you doin' standin' around? -Steve Earle

        by juls on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 09:46:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Didn't go to Woodstock. (4.00)
      Music wasn't good enough, plus I don't like mud.

      Charles

  •  Im a big fan of old hippies, myself. (4.00)

    Reigning Welterweight Female Piefighter since 1998

    by ablington on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 05:51:13 PM PDT

    •  Old hippies are the majority around here... (4.00)
      if you can belive this poll.

      I'm just glad we as a nation can provide such great internet access to our nursing homes and retiremnet communities.

      •  Baby boomers aren't necessarily hippies (4.00)
        Speaking for myself, I'm one of the huge percentage in that poll who identified as a baby boomer.  But I was born in 1962, so the hippie movement was long dead by the time I was old enough to do much of anything.

        Whether I would have identified with the hippies is another matter.  Looking at it from the viewpoint of a kid watching from the outside, I've always felt somewhat ambivalent about the whole movement.  Somehow, it managed to come across to me as being simultaneously narcisstic and selfless -- and, yeah, I know that's a contradiction...  It was all intensely polarizing, and from it came both the seeds that helped advance so many civil rights and personal freedom issues...but also the seeds that led to the conservative backlash that we've subsequently had to live through.

        •  Actually, according to our better demographers (4.00)
          you are a certified member of generation x, which would explain your ambivalence. In terms of birth rates, the baby boom lasted until 64 or so, but generations aren't defined exclusively by birth rates, and strong generation x traits start to show up by 1961. Welcome to our hell.

          "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

          by spot on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:23:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good (none)
            Thanks for the info and the link. I was born in early 1961 and have never felt part of the "boomers".  It's not so much that I didn't want to be identified with them as I didn't identify with them.  Interesting to note the gen x - I feel 10 years younger already!
            •  Fourty-four (none)
              is the new Thirty!!!

              "fuck your war... and your president."--Snake Plissken

              by binFranklin on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:31:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Not only that... (none)
              Strauss also says that only 12% of Boomers were actually really truly hippies....

              When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

              by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:04:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  they're probably not... (none)
                ...being forthcoming because of the drug stigma attached to being a "hippy."

                There are many who lust for the simple answers of doctrine or decree. They are on the left and right. They are terrorists of the mind. -- A. Bartlett Giamatti

                by FemiNazi on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:19:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Nonsense! (4.00)
                  Many, many more people in the 60's did drugs than called themselves hippies. From where I was sitting, it seemed that just about everyone under 30 was at least smoking pot.

                  And many more people were involved in the anti-war movement than called themselves hippies: there were really old people (about the age I am now, ha!) who were keepers of the flame from the leftist movements of the 30's, there were veterans of the civil rights movement that had been a major social force in the previous decade, there were Young Democrats, there were hard-core young leftists of many stripes, there were not-very-political students terrified of the draft, and their girlfriends. None of these people would have thought of themselves, or described themselves, as hippies.

                  Hippies were people who attempted to make their entire lives, and how they lived them, their political statements. Very few people in any generation are willing to make that kind of political committment, and even fewer succeed; I know exactly one person who has actually managed to do this, and while I wouldn't have chosen his path as my own, I like and respect him tremendously.

                  As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

                  by sidnora on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 09:22:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  But more than 12% ... (none)
                certainly were influenced by the cultural changes, the excitement, the feeling of questioning authority, the non-conformity, the music, the feeling that the world was shifting and new vistas were opening up.

                Even those who came late (I was a late boomer)and never caught the true wave were shaped by the movement -- forever.

                Hell, even some people's parents were. More than a few of the "silent generation" ended up trying pot, loosening up, leaving the rat race, etc.

              •  That doesn't seem right. (none)
                I can't imagine it was anywhere near 12% - I would think it was more like 2 or 3%. In my highschool of 2400 students, there wasn't more than 60 or so students who really participated. And at college, it didn't like the percentage changed at all.
                •  My high school (4.00)
                  1800 out of 2400 on strike after Kent State.

                  No-one who voted against the USAPATRIOT Act has lost an election. I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State. Or Yours.

                  by ben masel on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:09:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  But that didn't make them hippies. (4.00)
                    By the late sixties, opposing the war and our government's actions was pretty mainstream. Remember, the anti-war movement was run, not only by hippies and yippies, but also by clergy, veterans and families of soldiers. Then as now, an anti-war demonstration was filled with people from all walks of life.
                    •  This was a high school. (4.00)
                      No clergy or veterans, but a real high point was when the football team arrived as a group, announced they'd just met and decided to join us. (and asked if anyone had any pot. I was happy to oblige.)

                      No-one who voted against the USAPATRIOT Act has lost an election. I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State. Or Yours.

                      by ben masel on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:50:06 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  At that time, in high school (4.00)
                  (1967-68, junior-senior years), we were still subject to fairly strict dress and behavioral codes, we were minors, and we lived at home with our Eisenhower era parents. The "hippy" element didn't emerge much while we were in high school (and my graduating class numbered almost 400 students). I was one of the "art major" (therefore considered by others as not too mainstream) group, and even among us the "hippiness" didn't really bloom until kids were out of high school, away from their home and families, and living independently at college (or, as in my case, art school).

                  Even then, not everyone was a hippy, but the acceptance of those who were, and the adoption of certain of their values and attitudes, musical tastes, and hair and dress styles were widespread among young people. You could easily identify and agree with much of their "creed", even though you might not do drugs or go in so much for the "free love" (i.e. sex) part, and the anti-Vietnam sentiment and fear of the draft were a large component of the bond among hippies, borderline hippies, sympathizers, and other young people. There was no distinct dividing line between "hippies" and "non-hippies"; the edges were very much blurred. I might have been taken for a hippy by some, but a "real" hippy would have surely considered me "square" by his or her standards.

                  That was the era of the "Don't trust anyone over 30" slogan, police were considered oppressors and a very negative part of the establishment and referred to as "pigs", and big business was totally mistrusted. Humanities were the "big" study courses back then. "Jesus freaks" were placid, easy-going, generous, brotherly-love types, not like the so-called, self-professed rightwing "Christians" of today. Now I wonder, where have they all gone?

                  I could never understand how, in the '80s, when "our" generation was supposed to be coming into its own and taking control, it was possible that everything could have been turned upside-down and Reagan could have been so popular. It just didn't make sense to me. Hippies had been replaced by yuppies.

                  Even when Clinton was running for office, and was criticized for having avoided Vietnam, I couldn't help wondering, doesn't anyone remember anymore what it was like back then??? That kids did NOT want to go to Vietnam? That the military wasn't voluntary, so there was a very real risk of ending up there?

                  Sorry, I've digressed...

                  "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

                  by Donna in Rome on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 05:40:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I've wondered about this myself... (4.00)
                    Specifically, this part of what you wrote:

                    "I could never understand how, in the '80s, when "our" generation was supposed to be coming into its own and taking control, it was possible that everything could have been turned upside-down and Reagan could have been so popular."

                    And I'm sure we're not the only one who have wondered about this.

                    The best conclusion that I've been able to come up with is that the concept of personal libertarianism (whatever you do with your body and your life is your business, as long as you don't hurt anyone) somehow got perverted into economic libertarianism.  And somehow, the idea that you were supposed to not hurt others got lost in the process.

          •  Depends on the parents (4.00)
            I am a baby boomer born in '61. I'm the last of the kids in my family. My eldest brother was born in '50. My parents were part of the post war marriage bonanza. That makes me a baby boomer... the type of socially liberal, politically conscious and active family I grew up in and the location, University of Chicago neighborhood, makes me a fringe hippy. Too young to be the real thing but brought up in the climate and mindset.

            It would be easy to see that if someone had their first kid in '61 that kid would most likely be a GenXer rather than a baby boomer. It's really about the parents not the kids.

            "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

            by Andrew C White on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:50:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well 61ers are like 81ers (on the edge of (none)
              generation x and the millenials) cuspers. Some will display more boomer (or rather "joneser" - the parlance for late boomers - traits) and some will display more generation x traits. There are plenty of very cynical and pragmatic 61ers who are every bit as first wave x-ish as people born later in the decade.

              Your point about environment and parenting is well taken, although I would say that being a first wave xer doesn't necessarily make one a Republican. Both 1st and 2nd wave xers tend to be very cynical, pragmatic, adventurous, independent and libertarian, with 1st wave xers tending to be more conservatarian (and vote Republican) and 2nd wave xers (like myself) tending to be more left-libertarian, and vote Democrat. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a sizeable minority of 1st wave xers who aren't more like 2nd wave xers in their politics, or a sizeable minority of 2nd wave xers who aren't more like 1st wave xers in their politics.

              "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

              by spot on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:06:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Didn't mean to imply (none)
                that genXers necessarily ended up Republicans. Just making the point that the definition has more to do with the parents generation then with the actual year.

                The reason the baby boom ends in 1964 is that Mom's that were giving birth in 1945 were not giving birth in 1965.

                "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

                by Andrew C White on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:10:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Right, but while the baby boom as a birth (none)
                  rate phenomenon may end in the mid 60s, the traits that define the baby boom generation really begin to disappear in about 1960/61.

                  Read more.

                  "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

                  by spot on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:28:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks but... (none)
                    no need to read more. :)  I lived it, am living it. I am well aware of the differences between me and my older siblings and even moreso those of my slightly younger peers. I have always been old for my age and am well aware that my influences tend to be much older then those of my age group.

                    Peace,

                    Andrew

                    "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

                    by Andrew C White on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:32:31 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Reading it anyhow though (none)
                    :)

                    Just cuz that's one of those things I do. LOL

                    Very interesting stuff.

                    "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

                    by Andrew C White on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:38:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  My dad was in WWII. My mom (none)
                  had a son in 1964. I was born in 1947.  My brother is not a baby boomer and he'd be insulted if someone said he was.  He's a cynical, sarcastic, bitter Gen-Xer.  I have another brother, born in 1958, and he doesn't act like a boomer either.  I guess if you were born in the '60s, and you feel like a part of the baby boom generation, then you are.  OK by me.  But my brothers don't see themselves that way.
                  •  I never felt like a Boomer either (none)
                    I was born in 1957.  I never enjoyed the perks of the Boomers.  By the time I went to college, tuition was already rising and it was more difficult to work and fund your education than it was for those in my older sister's years (she was born in 1948).  By the time I entered the workforce, the older Boomers had already saturated the job market.  By the time I was looking at buying a house, real estate prices had sky-rocketed and interest rates were fairly high.  Advancement in the workplace was also difficult due to the high numbers of older boomers who had been there longer and, since their retirement was still decades away, advancement because of attrition wasn't going to benefit me.  I've never felt like a Boomer.  I've never enjoyed their perks and I missed out on their fun (I always wished I had come of age in the 60's.  I wasn't a hippie but I sure would have liked to have been one.  But, alas, I was cursed to come of age in the Disco Era.  Ye gads!)
                •  The "young Republican trend" is a myth (none)
                  I keep hearing it, but I've never believed it.  I ran across this post by Chris over at MyDD which boasts that youth is on our side.

                  "Democrats have a large lead on partisan identification among the younger generations, and liberalism is actually slightly ahead of conservatism among so-called "Generation Y" (born 1977-1994)"

                  Partisan Self-Identification by Year of Birth
                        All    77-94   65-76   46-64   30-45   Pre-30
                  Dem    37     39      40      31      40       47
                  Rep    34     28      31      40      34       35
                  Ind    28     31      28      28      26       16

                  Ideological Self-Identification by Year of Birth
                        All    77-94   65-76   46-64   30-45   Pre-30
                  Lib    19     31      25      17      13       19
                  Con    38     30      33      42      47       35
                  Mod    36     34      39      36      33       39

                  http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/4/11/191536/099

          •  gen x-er, born in '61 (none)
            and I wouldn't quite call it hell, but it is our own.  For years, I tried to accept "boomerism" as my culture before I decided it was just, let's just say, not for me.  I was thrilled when demographers classified me as gen x.

            The diarist mentioned the "youth movement" and this emphasizes the simple facts of age.  What is often overlooked about "baby boomers" is that this was a worldwide phenomenon (as it occured after a World War).   Look at world history in the late 60's through mid 70's, when boomers world-wide came of age, and you see a rising tide of activism in the streets.  I think it merely illustrates that when you reach a critical mass in youthful numbers - you are emboldened to challenge the status quo.

            But look what aging has done for the boomers.  For all their fine attributes, they are now demographically, the most Republican generation currently active.

            Ah, youth.

        •  I don't know why the (none)
          media tries to stretch the baby boom so much.  The baby boom really is just the kids born right at the end and after WWII, I'd say 1945-1955 or so.
          •  Probably because this was the time of (none)
            our military being stretched across the world because of the Cold War.  And when those flyboys, sailors, grunts and military workers came home, they made babies and had the tract house with the two cars in the garage.

            I'm glad to say I'm a mid-Boomer.  My immediate brother and sister are late-Boomers (1961-1962).  And our baby brother is Generation X (1968).

            An untypical Negro...since 1954.

            by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:46:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, and the so-called baby bust actually (4.00)
            never really ceased. Birth rates began to decline in the mid 1960s and reached a kind of critical mass between 1973 and 1976 (those of us born during these years probably had a slightly easier time than other generation xers getting into college), before picking up again slightly. But the crucial point is that birth rates have yet to again equal what they were even at the beginning of the 1970s, and there is a kind of dead zone in the 1990s where birth rates were actually lower than at the heart of the "baby bust" between 73 and 76.

            Generations aren't really defined by birth rates, although generations with larger birth rates do obviously tend to have more authority in a representative government. Generations are really about shared characteristics. Baby boom traits - the messianic idealism and moralism -actually begin to appear in the earlier forties (about 1943) and the baby boom generation probably ends in about 1960.

            "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

            by spot on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:46:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  William Strauss (none)
              Spent a day at a seminar given by Strauss last Spring.  It's fun to look at history through generational lenses...

              I'm firmly an Xer, (b. 1967) and feel like I pretty well typify the breed.  

              The part that is really fun to look at is how the parental cohort changes a generation.  The first half and second half of any generation have different parental generations.  So, for instance, the older Millennials (1982-1992) have Boomer parents while the younger ones (1992-2001) have Xer parents.

              In the case of the seminar I attended, we were looking at how the characteristics of the parents and children of the Millennial Generation would play out in the arena of education.  Strauss noted that Charter Schools and Home Schooling will be seen as the legacy of Gen X parents' influence on the education system.  When he put the slide up, my colleague and I turned to each other and laughed --he homeschools his kids and my son just started kindergarten at a charter school!

              When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

              by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:02:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Not quite (4.00)
            it was the generation of kids born of the people who fought the war, so we lasted more until about 1962.

            Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

            by TeresaInPa on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:48:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My Dad's definition of a boomer (none)
              My Dad was born in 1946.  His take on the Baby Boomers is this:

              If you've gone through your whole life in the situation where just when you are old enough for something it's either more crowded, or in shorter supply than ever before, then you know what it's like to be a baby boomer.

              His generation was always the one where they started saying "damn, we need to build more schools," or "wow, there sure are a lot of people entering the workforce," or "it sure is a lot harder for people to afford a new house nowdays," or "how is Social Security going to pay for all the people who are retiring now?"

              Personally, I don't see how someone born 15 years after the spike in births that began in '45-'46 can consider themselves a boomer.....

              •  That's what it's like all right. (none)
                I was born in 1947.  My high school was so overcrowded they had three shifts to get everyone in and then finally built another school.  At every major life shift, there was idiotic, innacurate coverage in the media about whatever the baby boomers were going through.  Even when I hit menopause, there were millions of books and articles about it.  When I need a nursing home, they'll probably be totally overcrowded.  Let's hope we have something better to talk about than old memories from the '60s.  LOL!
        •  I was an activist at that time (4.00)
          and your perception seems accurate to me. The truth often lies in contradictions, imho.

          I believe you're so right about the backlash! It's been gathering steam for almost 30 years, and it is upon us all. To me, that means we must continue to fight for individual freedoms and against unjust wars.

          This is no time for anyone to be arguing about a word made up by the media of the time. It was the activism that made a difference, and I'm delighted to see it beginning again.

          It's also a delight to see bushco starting to get some backlash of his own. Because of their arrogance, it won't be so hard to take him down after the 2006 elections.

          It is better to die standing than to live on your knees. - Emiliano Zapata

          by cotterperson on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:36:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Had this conversation on (4.00)
          another thread tonight.  There is a definite difference in the baby boom.  The old Boom and the young Boom.  Growing up in the 50s was a lot different than growing up in the 60s.  

          When you are going through hell, keep going! - Winston Churchill

          by flo58 on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:02:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You couldn't call me a hippie either... (4.00)
          and yet, I sympathized with some of their beliefs and aims.  I think that resonated into American culture than people want to admit.  I also believed in soap and staying straight, too.  Because it's a wild world out there.

          You don't realize that the wingers wanted to kill everybody then.  The backlash you speak of came with Nixon howling about law and order and readying detention centers (yes, it is true)...and allowing Kent State and Jackson State to occur.  

          Some of us thought that Kent State happened to show some tough love on those anti-war protesters.  That is, the old adage: I brought you in this world, and I can take you out of it.  Only thing is, a lot of the Ohio National Guardsmen were the age of the protesters.  And many of the protesters you could not call hippies.  Anyway, it seems that things quieted down after this atrocity, which happened because it was found that Kissinger and Nixon were secretly bombing Cambodia.  "Bring us together," indeed.

          There were political hippies who were into street theatre, like the ones Abbie Hoffman organized to levitate the Pentagon.  And there were those who were simply not into politics, but 'the scene': drugs, sex and rock and roll.  There were leeches, but many were not.  You simply cannot lump the hippie movement into one morass and attempt to label them as one.

          Nixon also made deals with the Christian right/the former Dixiecrats-now Repubs at that time, deals that came undone with Watergate.  But they kept on and finally found another guy to front them: Ronald Reagan.  Thing is, we have to keep trying like they did.

          An untypical Negro...since 1954.

          by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:09:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you. (4.00)
            "You don't realize that the wingers wanted to kill everybody then."

            Thank you.

            They still do. Nothing has changed. Not up and down the scene. The only thing that changed is that this movement...I don't like the word "hippies" myself because it was a multiethnic, multicultural MOVEMENT...stalled 'em for a while.

            Now we have to do it again.

            MINUS the media interest, which the opposition has (correctly, in terms of their own self-interest) very effectively controlled.

            If the media had been under right wing control jnstead of free market in the '50 through the '70s there would have BEEN no youth movement.

            Just Pat Boone copping Little Richard songs.

            Hail to the Chef.

            Whoever he might be.

            Charles

      •  Let me count the ways... (none)
        better yet... teach by example!

        Not such a 'long, long time ago'AND with a little effort not to hard to find...

        Just turn any way you want at the end of the yellow brick road.

        "Say kids, What time is it?" - Buffalo Bob Smith

        by SteveK on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:42:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  "I was there. In Cambridge." (3.28)
    Pretending to be a Harvard student?
  •  Markos is too young (3.94)
    To know what the hell he is talking about on this topic.

    Thank you for the 1st person witness.  I too barely remember Kerry from that time.  The most influencial people in the anti war movement were indeed the "hippies" and Yippies and the Black Panthers and the  New Muslim movement amoung African Americans, Muhammed Ali and the four dead in Ohio.
    None of these people were "acceptable" images to uptight americans. But then there weren't as many uptight americans as our uptight barely out of their Reagan youth period, GenX friends here at dkos.

    Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

    by TeresaInPa on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 05:58:16 PM PDT

    •  I remember Kerry and VVAW, (4.00)
      but they came in very late--at the very end of the movement.  It was great that veterans were joining the peace movement, but there were protests very early on.  I started college in 1965, and the movement was already in full swing then.  By 1968-69, anti-war was almost mainstream.  At least it seemed that way to me.  I was in Cambridge too.  But my Mom and Dad in Indiana had turned against the war by then.  I'm pretty sure they voted for Nixon the first time.
    •  Not all GenXers are uptight (4.00)
      I don't want to start a generational pissing match, but not all GenXers here on dKos are uptight.  This GenXer isn't and appreciates all that the hippies, feminists, etc have done for the country.  To paint all GenXers n dKos as uptight is unfair and uncalled for.
      •  wtf is a gen xer (4.00)
        I'm 29.  Do I count?

        What does that mean I should do/think/feel?  LMK, cuz I'm adrift here.

        In the meantime, on with getting on with life and trying to be a decent human.

        Generational politics are a created phenomenon.  We can un-create them.

        never underestimate social psychology

        by creativedissonance on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:18:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Generations are nonsense. (none)
        I was born in 1964.  By some standards, I'm a boomer.  By others, I'm in "Generation X".  These categories are just media creations, and are nonsense.  No "generation" was ever homogenous.
      •  so we aren't in favor of stereotypes here? (none)
        New to me.  

        Look all generations have their character.  Certainly not all GenXers are uptight reagan youth, members of the me generation... but enough are and like it or not that is the general trend of that generation.

        Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

        by TeresaInPa on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 09:59:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Grew up around Detroit (4.00)
      and participated in some protest while still in high school in '69.  Registered for the draft as a CO in 1970.  I remember feeling grateful to the VVAW.  It felt like the scales of popular opinion were beginning to tip when they arrived, but it seems to me that they added considerable momentum.

      An interesting historical note:  the "Hanoi Jane" incident occurred much later - just weeks before the peace negotiations got underway and just a couple of months before schedule troop draw downs began.  It's always amused me that Fonda is given so much credit by the Right for screwing the whole thing when it was all pretty much a done deal by the time of her publicity stunt.

      BTW - I wasn't even close to being a "hippie."  Didn't smoke dope till '72 and didn't grow my hair long till '89.  I've always rebelled against what seemed to me like the superficial parts, the "pop" parts of trends.  

      Beware those who claim to be "The Chosen", for they have already led themselves astray and seek to lead you down the same path. There are no "Chosen."

      by sxwarren on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:02:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You betcha. (2.50)
      Watch 'em try to pile on, these bourgeois slackers.

      Charles.

      •  You're kidding, right? (4.00)
        Because her comments are as divisive as they come.

        Don't give me this Reagan youth shit.  Don't tell me that at 37 years old I'm too young to know anything about the VietNam War (you can read the Cum Laude on my American History degree just to be sure).

        And, really, slackers?  Calling Gen Xers slackers is like, oh, I don't know, calling all Boomers Dirty Hippies!

        As for what started all of this, keep in mind that Markos is a pragmatic Democrat.  He's in it to win, and he's calling it as he sees it.  I'm not sure I agree with him about hippies, but on the other hand, I also know that at times we have a tendency to play right into the stereotypes that the right has created for us. (As the right wingnut who called in to Stephanie Miller's show to bash Cindy Sheehan Friday noted, "She got a free concert from Joan Baez!")

        It seems to me that Cindy Sheehan and John Kerry have played similar roles in their respective war protests.  While the true believers were there from the beginning, protesting the war before it even began in the case of Iraq, they were easily discounted as soft on communism/terror.  It takes a new voice, one with "skin in the game," as Cindy Sheehan put it, to get the attention of the larger portion of our country that doesn't pay as close attention to the news as we do.

        Look at the poll numbers and tell me that Cindy Sheehan's protest hasn't had an effect on public opinion about the war.  In the same way that a soft spoken, patrician Ivy League grad could lend credibility to the VietNam War protest, Sheehan's position as a grieving mother has allowed people in this country to have the space they needed in which to truly think about the Iraq War and where they stand on it.

        When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

        by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:33:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  good job..defend the people who gave us (1.50)
          the angry white guy backlash.

          You really should charge rent for that space in your head you are currently giving away for free to republicans and republican media.  

          It is wondering and worrying about what effect SOMEONE ELSES IMAGE is doing to how people see "us" that is self defeating.
          You don't get to decide who is presentable to the american people. Sorry about that.  If you don't like the other people included in "us" stay the hell home.

          I think it's hysterical that you say genXers are not uptight and then go on to get all uptight about the image protestors are making on the SCLM.  ROFL

          Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

          by TeresaInPa on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 10:11:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Can we drop this already? (3.50)
    Its really getting tiring. Its as if the hippies are  trying to prove their usefulness, and the hippie- haters are trying to discount them. Gets us nowhere.

    We are ALL useful. End of story.

    The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of crisis, remain neutral.

    by ten10 on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 05:58:21 PM PDT

    •  What? LOL (3.38)
      First of all who are the Hippies?  Jeesh, and why the hell would any of us who were at one time "hippies" feel we had to prove our usefulness to a lot of kids who are in charge of pretty much nothing?  

      Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

      by TeresaInPa on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:15:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Okay. (4.00)
        That's twice you've insulted people younger than you (including the man who created this blog for cryin' out loud) for no reason.

        What is wrong with you?  Don't you see that you're doing to us exactly what you Boomers claimed was done to you in the sixties -- you're disrespecting us because of our age.

        And, oh, sorry we're not in charge of anything --actually, I'm GLAD we're not in charge of anything because as far as I can see things are pretty FUCKED UP around here!  At least we can't be blamed for that!

        When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

        by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:12:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  this is snarky (4.00)
          but by 37, I would hope you've been doing something.  I mean, is everything wrong everyone elses fault?
          This is a generational difference - my mom had me along as a toddler to civil rights activities, and I realize there were few pressing issues when many younger folks were coming of age. But I'm only ten years older than you...
          •  This is snarky, too, but.... Just as soon as (none)
            you and your cohort give up your spots, we'll happily move in.

            Of course, we are working on it (Barak Obama ain't a bad start)....but now that the Boomers are the Establishment, it's funny how they are reticent to share power with the young'uns...

             

            When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

            by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:06:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Few pressing issues? (4.00)
            Apartheid? Central America? Homelessness? Arms Control? AIDS? Deficits?  I'm 34 and there were a hell of a lot of issues to care about when I was growing up.  Here is what is annoying about every generation, yours included, you see the events that defined your coming of age as the most significant and dismiss those events which shape other generations.  Which is really what all this fuss is about, respecting the political memory of everyone.

            George W. Bush makes Reagan look smart, Nixon look honest, and his dad look coherent.

            by Dave the pro on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:07:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well said, Dave. (4.00)
              You are a pro!

              It's funny, this is like the older feminists complaining that we younger women don't appreciate everything they did for us.  Of course we do, but do we have to bow down to your every word and movement?  Do we have to define ourselves in terms relative to your accomplishments?  Do we have to listen to your stories about how great everything was?  Peace and love hitchhiking, dropping acid, etc. etc.

              Okay, we get it!  We missed all the good stuff!

              Now stop insulting us for the crime of being younger and MUCH fewer in number than you and for being raised during a less prosperous and protest-worthy time than you....

              When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

              by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:27:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks (none)
                Although I have to say I lose it earlier down in the thread.

                George W. Bush makes Reagan look smart, Nixon look honest, and his dad look coherent.

                by Dave the pro on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:30:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I'm sorry (4.00)
                I remember that when I was in my twenties I used to love to listen to people older than I talk about the suffrage movement, the labor movement, stories about the depression and hard times and FDR.

                I think that we on the left in this country don't have textbooks that tell our history.  We have to pass it down in other ways.

                I'm sorry if it bores you.  Or whatever it does that makes you so angry. I truly am.

                •  Maybe it's the way you do it... (none)
                  I loved listening to my grandmother and grandfather talk about the way things were as well.  And I recall vividly the day my mother invited the woman who was canvassing for NOW into our suburban home and made her coffee and gave her money out of the canister on the counter.

                  And I WAS around and sentient during the VietNam war, as were many, many of my generation.  It's not like we didn't experience it in some way, we just weren't of age to protest.  

                  And obviously it all had some effect on me, because I was a complete leftist from the time I read the Constitution and the newspaper and realized there was a big difference between the ideal and the real.

                  I suppose it's one of those things that is hard to explain.  If you were in my position and read the posts about how great everything and everyone was "back then," you might see it differently as well.

                  Plus, you might want to read a few of TeresainPa's posts and then maybe you'll understand why those of us born between 1962 and 1982 might be a tad touchy on this whole issue!

                  When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

                  by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:37:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I guess it would be (4.00)
                    Hard to explain I mean.

                    You said:  I suppose it's one of those things that is hard to explain.  If you were in my position and read the posts about how great everything and everyone was "back then," you might see it differently as well.

                    Part of listening to people talk about the depression, the suffrage movement, etc., was that they said how great everything and everyone was back then, and you saw the distant look in their eyes and the smile on their faces and the brief suffusion of youthful wistfulness smoothe the lines between their eyebrows.  So you knew, when you saw them, that when they talked about how great it was back then they were remembering something wonderful, not criticizing those who listened.

                    Maybe that's the problem?  Maybe on a blog, where all you see are the words, not the wistful smiles, you misinterpret memory for criticism.

                  •  "Those of us born between '62 and '82" (none)
                    Um, speak for yourself.  I was born in '64, and Charles and TeresainPa are speaking the truth.  All this discussion proves is that generalizations based on age are just that:  generalizations.  I'm as tired of hearing "pragmatic" crap as the 60-year old guy with the patchouli.  "Winning" doesn't count for spit if you have no principles you're willing to lose over, and Kos doesn't appear to have yet learned that.

                    "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald

                    by Passing Shot on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 10:40:45 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  unfair generalizations (3.00)
                      Really, I could say your whole comment is a generalization.

                      Teresa's tone is terrible in that she keeps faulting people younger than herself for no better reason than ... get this ... the year they were born.

                      It's not the fact that anybody is generalizing about generations, it's that some people feel the need to fault someone for something they themselves could never change ... the year they were born.

                      It's the fastest way to get someone to stop talking to you, and quit listening to you.

                      I have news for some Boomers: Gen-X is the future, and you are the teacher. If you are a criticizer and sow the seeds of bad feelings, you will not have much hand left in the future because people will stop listening to you.

                      I myself think hillary's comments in this debate are outstanding. I was born in 1964. (full disclosure).

                      In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

                      by yet another liberal on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:55:55 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Oh, and... (none)
                  We do have textbooks.  I studied history with Michael Wrezsin and Socialism with the late Michael Harrington at Queens College -- both were walking talking textbooks of the left.

                  When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

                  by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:40:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Love hippies, just not arrogant hippies (4.00)
                  As a Gen-Xer who went to graduate school in Eugene, Oregon I've been friends with LOTS of hippies.  I've always enjoyed hearing about history through their eyes.  But, I think Eugene is where all the Happy Hippies went....

                  This discussion seems to have an overabundance of angry hippies and arrogant hippies.  The hippies I knew would never insult someone for their youth and inexperience, because they knew the value of youth and fresh insight.

                  On the other hand, since Boomers have been in the position of being the demographically dominant group for their entire lives, they seem to (for the most part) have an intolerance toward any point of view which isn't their own.  Hence, as the boomers become our political leaders, bipartisanship goes out the window.

                  Anyone on this board who insults the Gen-Xers because of our age is just an angry boomer, and a "hippie poser" IMO.

            •  Actually (none)
              I was responding to the remark that everything was so messed up these days, and somehow it had to be the fault of those who seem to fall in the boomer-class.
              I am very aware of the continuing global pain, and am always inspired to meet or hear about younger folks willing to jump into the fray.
              I can really only speak for myself and my small life. I try to leave a very small footprint.

              The issues you mentioned each had a deep impact on my life - you can probably imagine the number of friends many of us lost to AIDS, for example. By saying this, I am in no way dismissing your experience, but welcoming your story.
              All of this becomes exhausting to remember, not really like polishing trophies on the mantle. Exhausting because somedays it feels like nothing will ever change. The last many years have been so very depressing, but with younger voices chiming in, I am hopeful that the work will continue. But please don't blame us for all of the ills of world.

    •  Or useless. (none)
      Depends.  

      80W-71S
      The most un-American thing you can say is, "You can't say that." -G. Keillor

      by Eddie Haskell on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:16:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yes. (3.46)
    Thank you. The punksters and X-ers have not a clue. They think it was like how CNN and MTV told them it was.

    Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain

    by Rolfyboy6 on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:01:27 PM PDT

    •  That's not necessarily true. (4.00)
      I went back to college as an adult, and they have courses on Vietnam and the '60s.  I learned plenty from Gen-Xer's in my old age.  It's not about age, it's about experience and how open your mind is.  Daily kos is a very conservative blog at this point.  I don't know why I keep hanging around.  I guess because there are so many people here and lots are like me--just not the front page people.
      •  I think we've all become too PC. (4.00)
        I long for some rads.

        I teach painting the figure and asked a neighbor if I could hold my class on her lakefront beach in the middle of nowhere. serious. ONE neighbor ACROSS A BAY. She had to CALL him to see if "he'd be comfortable" with a model in the lake! He said he wouldn't so she said no to me.

        Liberalism hides elitism and disguises a constipating conservatism that irritates those in the middle to no end. I try here to be the bridge but this call puts me square with the radicals. I think the rads could change the middle but I don't think the dems can the way they are so so precious and so so careful....

        Thanks so much for allowing this rant. I was a kind of fashionista hippie then. I did some marching but wore the very latest..

         

        A society of sheep must beget in time a government of wolves. Bertrand de Jouvenel

        by Little Red Hen on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:31:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for this diary (4.00)
    When I was a little boy, my parents took me and my brothers to anti-war rallies.

    My father was a WWII Army veteran. My mother as a young girl lived thru WWII in Europe and in many ways was fortunate to have survived and come to America.

    'Honor thy elders' says the wise diarist.

    To me it's the same as 'Honor thy mother and father.'

    I lived thru most of the Vietnam War and as a boy thought I would turn 18, be drafted, and die over there.

    In many ways it's a 'generational thing' - these hasty comments, generalized stereotypes, and basic thoughtlessness.

    But peace is the way, and those in power can ALWAYS find supposedly legitimate reasons to sell whatever war they want.

  •  I vote for the hippies, even the ones into war. (4.00)

    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

    by spot on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:03:17 PM PDT

  •  A perfect rant. (4.00)
    Yeah, I was there too.  Grew up on the 'Side, and kept going back.  Missed Chicago, but made the two big Pentagon parties.

    And y'know, I never could remember Kerry, either.

    "Dylan. Tom Hayden. Malcolm X. Abbie Hoffman. Muhammad Ali. Joan Baez. John Lennon. Paul Krassner. Jimmy Breslin., Norman Mailer. William Burroughs. Underground newspapers by the hundreds."

    Yeah, that I remember.

    JF

  •  An old hippie (4.00)
    I totally agree.  People now think hippies and they think some 70s tv version maybe the Brady Bunch kids dressing up for Halloween.  Or some nightmare like Manson using the hippie movement for his own bizarre and twisted trip.  Or some remnant of the movement that did not believe in personal responsibility or seeking for truth, people who corrupted the beauty of the movement for all of us idealistic kids who were trying to create a better world.

    Hippies were the counterculture.  Hippies were a few vertabrae on the backbone of social change in the late 60s.  Hippies were the white grassroots counterpart to the civil rights movement.  Hippies were the precursers, along with the civil rights movement, to feminism and gay rights and privacy rights, because hippies said live and let live and don't judge anyone unless they hurt someone else.  Hippies were the environmental movement.  Hippies were the simplicity, anti-materialism movement.   Being a hippie was trying to live a dream that at its base was about a deep yearning to be free.

    We had a youth movement. You could hitchhike anywhere in the country, go to any university and find a place to stay for the night.  You had instant friends, instant sharing, a common language, trust.  That was hippies.  I miss it and anyone who didn't experience it, who didn't feel it for even one minute, has missed something too.  

    •  You had a youth movement... (2.33)
      and said "never trust anybody over thirty."

      Now it's "respect your ancestors."

      •  Wha? (4.00)
        I don't recall saying "respect your ancestors." I also don't recall saying "Don't trust anybody over thirty." I didn't know any hippies who said that.  We liked a lot of people over 30.  We didn't like a lot of people over thirty. And I bet you think all women's libbers burned their bras, too!  And Cindi Sheehan probably hates America.  You've got to get your media bullshit detector into gear.
        •  wha? (4.00)
          Again!  i agree with you and i can tell you were THERE and experienced our phenomenon of being hippies.  This other stuff some posters are coming up with is stuff they have read about hippies! i clearly remember marching and the when Kent State happened, it made our mission even clearer. The hippie movement is difficult to truly explain; we were a group and could identify each other.  It was powerful for a long haired girl like me back then.(and NO one said "groovy".
          •  thinking about Kent State (4.00)
            I remember reading about "dirty hippies" and how they didn't <gasp!> wear underwear.  It was the Swift Boating of the day, "What? No bath and no underwear? Practically begging for a bullet to the head."

            So there it is, the ugly truth. When the govenment kills 4 college students on campus, they must have just needed killing. Certainly Mr. Kos, those damned hippies were hurting THAT noble cause.

            "The shootings killed four students and wounded nine. Two of the four students killed, Allison Krause and Jeffrey Miller, had participated in the protest, and the other two, Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder, were simply walking from one class to the next. Schroeder was also a member of the campus ROTC chapter."

            Walk on the graves of those who demonstrated for civil rights and died at the hands of their own government, and those who demonstrated for peace and died at the hands of their own government. You can't do any worse to them than what their own government already did in the name of honor.

        •  Respect your ancestors... (none)
          was referring to the diarist, but i see that i had the quote wrong. It was "Honor thy ancestors. Y'might learn something."

          My comment was probably misplaced as a reply to yours, but i'll try and make up for it with something relevant.

          You said:


          I miss it and anyone who didn't experience it, who didn't feel it for even one minute, has missed something too.

          I don't regret at all not experiencing the decade before i was born, and don't care a whit for anything i may have "missed" by not being alive back then.

          The decade i regret not being able to experience is the one right after i am dead and buried, the decade my generation helps provide to its children. We all have our "good ole days", but rather than inflict them on the next generation, i would rather work to see that next generation has a good chance to experience their own.

          Again, sorry about the misplaced reply, you should have just called me a young whipper-snapper.

          •  I don't want (4.00)
            to inflict anything on you.

            I'm an old hippie, remember?

            And I'm hoping that my son, now an adult, creates his own wonderful experience, and finds joy in every moment, and treats every human being with respect and love.

            I hope that for you too.

          •  right on (none)
            I wanted to give that a comment a 4 until I read that last dreaded sentence.

            I know NCJim meant no harm. But that sentence is so alienating to me, it is so condescending.

            Obviously NCJim is a good guy, but the sign-off just makes me want to say "Whatever", "See you later", "I'm going out! Ok!?"

            In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

            by yet another liberal on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:28:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Something like that... (4.00)
        ... just because we were idealistic and activist and set the stage for a lot of the advances in society over the several years, the progressive advances that the bushies have been fighting so hard to take away, doesn't mean we got everything right nor does it mean that what is true for one time and space remains true for all times and spaces.

        Back then "Don't trust anyone over 30" made a lot of sense. It wasn't completely true then nor is it completely untrue now. Lots of over 30 leaders to the counter culture movement back then. Lots of under 30 leaders now. Lots of over 30 leaders still with gas in their tanks ready to do it all over again.

        "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

        by Andrew C White on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:04:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Born 1950 (4.00)
           Hippie. Alot of my friends at the time were over 30, it was a joke. It's amazing how the media and those who weren't there have successfully framed us as "Hippie Dippy's" and catch phases. We were idealists, I believe that was our biggest strength and out biggest failing. We really thought that things were improving, Damn...
      •  I don't even think Abbie Hoffman said that... (none)
        but his cohort, Jerry Rubin, who decided to make some dinero and later died jaywalking across an L.A. street.

        Frankly, I don't think it was a mantra practiced by everyone.

        But they sure didn't trust anyone like Lyndon Johnson.  And they sure didn't like the media and sometimes played them for suckers.

        An untypical Negro...since 1954.

        by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:19:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't say that. (none)
        Nor did ANYONE I knew. We were all artists, trying to figure out how Van Gogh and joyce and Shakespeare and Miles Davis saw what they saw and heard what they heard.

        Once again...revisionist history.

        "Never trust anybody over thirty?"

        That's a slogan out of a Hollywood movie. Don't even remember the name.

        Charles

      •  er (none)
        "don't trust anyone over thirty" was Jerry Rubin talkin', who wasn't even a hippie.  He was a Yippie, dude.

        take a look here

        or here

        If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up... - Hannah and Her Sisters

        by AlyoshaKaramazov on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 01:21:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  An ok hippie (4.00)
      Nc Jim, you are so right!  i was a hippie in the Chapel Hill area of NC.  YOU could identify a friend in a hippie by a look and the peace sign.  We took care of each other.  The youth movement helped end the war. That is one thing that is so frustrating with the youth today.  no real movement...no understanding of what it really took!  thank you for saying it right.
      Mariah wind
    •  Yep, I was part of it too (3.91)
      There was an incredible flowering of music, and poetry, and literature, and humanity.  It was as if the sky had opened, and a new idea about what being human came to grace us all.

      I wish we could have held onto it. I think we each try to cherish it as best we can in the times we live in.

      •  part of it too.. (4.00)
        Gravie, wasn't it something to behold?  I have wished so much to have that back into the spirits of the youth of today. This may sound hokey, but it was a magical time even while the war was going on and civil disobedience soared, because we knew, just knew that we could make the war end and bring about peace. Oh my gosh, i am hearing Donovan in the background and a bit of Dylan's "the times they are achangin'".  There has never been a more activist's time.  never...hell, anyone can watch the protest scene in "Forrest Gump" and get the idea.
        •  I am in middle America (4.00)
          and I see the young here wanting it, trying it on, wearing it, living like the entire movement is back. It gives me hope. I dunno if it's just here.

          A society of sheep must beget in time a government of wolves. Bertrand de Jouvenel

          by Little Red Hen on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:38:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  yes (4.00)
      there was also the beginnings of the environmental movement, co-ops and collectivism, shared and affordable housing, a serious stab at back-to-the-land, honest info about health issues (Our Bodies Ourselves...).
      My values were formed in those years.
      I still don't shave my arms, rarely shave my legs. Don't own a bra.
    •  "We had a youth movement." (none)
      Yeah.  And now we got Metamucil...

      Nice post.

      Ooops on the double post...

      Peace.

      JF

  •  The radical survives; not the conventional wisdom. (4.00)
    Hippies were a tiny part of the population with an unbelievably huge impact on our culture. No, we couldn't fix the problems we identified - there just weren't enough of us. But we were beautiful, and powerful and magical and truthful - I think goodness everyday that I got a touch of the magic.

    We were the generation who grew up believing that the US was the finest and fairest of nations and we decided to hold our country to that standard. We didn't get everything right, but love, honesty and justice were our guiding lights and we defined the finest of our generation. Hippies set the standard that the rest had to rise to.  Most of them are still smarting from it.

    That's why hippies get tossed in the mud. It's easier to dirty us up than to rise to the challenge a radical generation presents.

  •  Actually, it was Walter Cronkite (4.00)
    Walter Cronkite's scepticism about the war was what finally turned public opinion.

    But quite frankly, changed public opinion did nothing to end the war.  The war ended when we lost, plain and simple.  The pro-war politicians and the inept officers (Westmoreland, principally) lost the military part of the war.  The political part of the war was lost the day that the French left after Dinh Bien Phu.

    There were hippies who actually were students and lots of working folk who dressed like hippies and were hippies on the weekends.  And drugs, yep, the government plot to undercut the antiwar or the perfect way to endure the Johnson and Nixon administrations, depending on your perspective.

    I don't think that we need to enforce a button-up dress code for Democrats.  It's the construction workers around here who look like hippies now, and some of them have W's on their trucks.

    The revolution starts now--in your own back yard, in your own home town

    by TarheelDem on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:06:08 PM PDT

    •  Good point.. (4.00)
      and we know what a long-haired "tune in" and "drop out" hippy Walter was.

      The thing I find almost surreal is that somehow saying that being conscious of how your delivery of message is, when presenting less threatening is more effective is somehow a "slam" on those of feel more compelled to "be themselveS" and "damn the torpedoes" and get "mad as heel" about how anyone would dare suggest that we all should be more self-aware when reaching out to others who, beaus of human nature, will tend to find was to distances themselves form someone who appears "alien" than having to do the hard work of changing their views or thinking on something, especially something terrifying like war.

      The real irony of this is that out of context "style" and projected slights by focusing on something I write with a  provocative headline are what fueled this screed of a diary, which is exactly the underlying point I was trying to make in my diary about how presentation of message does matter in flipping people's "us or them" binary modes of thinking.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

      by Lestatdelc on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:49:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  people aren't slighted Mitch (4.00)
        we think you don't know what you are talking about.

        Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

        by TeresaInPa on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:08:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Translator! (4.00)
        ...somehow saying that being conscious... presenting less threatening is more effective is somehow a "slam"... and get "mad as heel" about how anyone would dare suggest that we all should be more self-aware... beaus of human nature, will tend to find was to distances themselves form someone who appears "alien"...

        This is like reading a Dr. Bronner's label.

        I've read it four times, and I still don't know what he's saying. Except it seems to have something to do with effective communication.

        And irony.

        -fred

      •  Good point my ass. (4.00)
        (See below for more.)

        Charles

        P.S. By the way...as intemperate as this diary might have been...it looks like it flipped a LOT of switches.

        Eh?

        "Intemperance" has its place, Bunkie.

        Like when confronted with intolerable bullshit.

        •  Thank you, Charleslives (4.00)
          This is the single best diary I've ever read on DKos!  

          So much truth gets subjugated to prejudice and narrow-mindedness, not only by the "other" side.  The negativity of the post-Reagan world has infected us all, so that few now believe there could really have been a time when "Peace and Love" were not a cynical "pragmatic" political slogan, but a fervent belief.

          Thank you for speaking truth.

          So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause -- Padme

          by dnta on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:32:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That was not my point (4.00)
        My point was that Walter Cronkite's shift marked the point at which public opinion shifted.

        A further point made below is that that shift in public opinion did not end the war.  How can a 21-year war with ten years of escalated conflict be said to have been ended by public opinion?  It was our longest war in history.

        There were a lot of people in the antiwar movement who were not hippies--David Dellinger comes to mind.  And there were a growing number after 1966 who were hippies.  Their style did not matter.  The liberal (Hubert Humphrey liberal) media spun the news against the antiwar movement (that it incidentally hyped in 1965-1966) to protect the President, regardless of party.  Until Walter Cronkite broke with the program.

        As someone mentioned below, the war finally ended when the death and destruction and especially the futility in the absence of a real government in South Vietnam and a real fight by the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) became too much.

        And the outrage you see here is because a whole bunch of antiwar movement protesters, and a goodly number of hippies got arrested and their heads busted for opposing a war they could not stop.  They tried. They did everything that they knew how to do, and it did not stop.  And "getting clean for Gene" didn't stop it either.

        So a little respect for the folks who put their lives on the line then is in order.  Theirs is the one monument that will not be put on the Mall in Washington.  But it jolly well should.  Because their concern was the troops too.  And their own skin.  Because of the draft, everyone was on the line.  And when the troops came back a lot of the antiwar movement helped them talk out their anger at the way the war had been managed.  And a lot of the returned troops became hippies for a while. But these are not the stories that the media wants to tell; they want to morph "LBJ, LBJ, how many babies did you kill today" into calling the troops babykillers (well, some like the folks at My Lai were) or spitting on soldiers.  And they won't to ignore the situations in which cops stood by and watched truck drivers beat up protesters in small communities.  And the midnight repression at the 1967 Pentagon march, with nary a hippie in sight.  And the Chicago police riot.

        Like the man said, you apparently weren't there.  And no one has really captured the history of the time.

        The revolution starts now--in your own back yard, in your own home town

        by TarheelDem on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 05:35:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Walter Cronkite & Associates (4.00)
      Walter Cronkite did influence 'middle america' more then us 'hippies' did... BUT, us 'hippies' had quite an influence on Mr. Cronkite, too.

      He was ahead of the curve on so many things...

      Commencement address at Syracuse University, June 2, 1968.
      CHANGE OR REVOLUTION
      Walter Cronkite

      "If we are to survive and wipe out not only the symptoms, but the causes of injustice and decay, there must be change. There is going to be change. This is inevitable. The quesion that the future asks: What kind of change for the good, the bad, coming rapidly or more slowly, by radical excisement of the old, by amputation and transplant, or mutation?"

      [...]
      "Youth's discontent stems from the same impatience that has motivated each generation when it was young--impatience to get on with the obvious reforms that the Establishment seems reluctant to institute."

      "Say kids, What time is it?" - Buffalo Bob Smith

      by SteveK on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:32:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ooops ~ (4.00)
      You've got this backwards. It was the Peace Movement, the "hippies in the streets" that got Walter Cronkite's respect after he visited Viet Nam in '68. He turned a 180 on the air as a previous hawk and declared Viet Nam a lost cause; the same thing the hippies had said for two plus years by this point. Cronkite called for President Johnson to negotiate a peace with the North Viet Namese and get out of there - fast. Johnson did begin negotiations in Paris, and shortly thereafter announced he would not run for reelection, quoted saying, "If I've lost Cronkite, I've lost the white house."

      Hippies were there, at all the major antiwar and peace and environmental protests of the 60's and 70's. They nearly shut down the Democratic national Convention in Chicago, angry at the political process of the day and the losses of JFK, MLK and then Bobby. Can we even imagine the kind of world it would be today had we not lost those three men before their time?

      So, it would be a much different world today if not for those silly "hippies"; keepers of the democratic spirit.

      And that's the way it is.

      Apathy, the New American Passtime

      by Zen to Go on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:45:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't conflate hippies and the antiwar movement (none)
        Tom Hayden was not a hippie.  David Dellinger was not a hippie.  The most hippie folk at the protests at the Chicago National Democratic Convention were the Yippies, a satirical take on hippies, led by Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman.

        After Chicago, the number of hippies in the antiwar movement grew, and after Kent State, the antiwar movement moved out of college and hippies briefly became almost a mainstream style.  By 1975, it was over.

        The revolution starts now--in your own back yard, in your own home town

        by TarheelDem on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 05:05:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not Really (4.00)
      Cronkite's famous broadcast was in February 1968, right after the Tet Offensive.  

      More Americans were killed in the years after the Tet Offensive than in the years before.

      More than two years after Cronkite's famous broadcast, Nixon invaded Cambodia.

      Like Kerry and Viet Nam Veterans march, Cronkite's speech gets more credit for moving public opinion in retrospect than it did at the time.  It's a combination of post hoc, ergo hoc, and Americans' belief in the power of celebrities.

      What moved Americans from supporting the war to opposing the war was time, deaths, the draft and the lack of any obvious progress.

      •  1969 (none)
        Actually, the bombing of Cambodia started up in February 1969 almost as soon as Nixon took office, following plans drawn up during Johnson's administration. It didn't become public until about 2 years after Tet, however.

        Those who do not learn from history are stupid. --darrelplant

        by darrelplant on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 10:21:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Great. (none)
      Now it's Walter fucking Cronkite who ended the war!!!

      Unbelievable.

      He was just reporting on the movement. Which he could NOT do today. Walter Cronkite was sitting in his office deciding which tie to wear when the shit hit the streets.

      Charles

      •  No one ended the war (none)
        Walter Cronkite's shift is what moved mainstream public opinion.  It was suddenly OK to be against the war.

        But the sad fact is that no one ended the war.  It just sputtered out.  People one by one were less willing to go.  To say that a war that lasted really 21 years in some form or another, not counting the French experience before, was ended by a popular movement was incorrect.

        And the hideous thing about this claim is that it allowed the antiwar movement to become scapegoats.  And it preserved the illusion that we could have won in Vietnam if only the people have had more resolve.  And it has led us to where we are today.

        The revolution starts now--in your own back yard, in your own home town

        by TarheelDem on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 05:12:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Hippies (4.00)
    Thanks Charles, for a grade-A rant. And to all of the rest of you doubters, don't be fuckwits about this stuff. Charles has his shit together.

    Peace, (hopefully before I take my last breath)

    Mikolo

  •  For those who are too young to have experienced (4.00)
    this interesting time may I recommend reading '1968'.  A great perspective on young people all over the world, not just in the US.  It will give you a real feel for protests that worked and why they worked.  Hippies or not people had a passion that led this country to change.

    "Do Iraqi children scream when the bombs fall if no one is in the White House to hear them?" Bernard Chazelle

    by dmac on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:07:41 PM PDT

    •  And further... (4.00)
      For those who are too young to have experienced this interesting time may I recommend going to Washington during the September demonstrations and raising some holy hell.

      It's good for the soul...and it gets things done, too.

      A couple of million people descending on DC would end this war in a week.

      Charlkes

      •  Would that be (none)
        While protesting Israel, tne World Bank, demanding Unilateral Disarmament? Or maybe acting like the ANSWER geniuses and spray painting "Stop Racism" on the bloody African American Civil War Memorial?

        Please. Re-live your glory days on someone else's cause.

        •  What??? (4.00)
          You think 2,000,000 walking past the White House wouldn't throw a shock into the people who are still backing this war?

          Hell, man...just look how scared they are of Cindy Sheehan and a few hundred protesters.

          This media-backed system is potentially a two-edged sword. The MASSIVE presence of television media in the lives of Americans...MUCH greater than during the Vietnam war in terms of sheer magnitude and clarity of image (do not discount the impact of color or the improvement of the picture itself)...magnifies the importance of everything it touches a thousandfold. EVERYTHING becomes the hottest thing ever. That's why they must control it so tightly, aim it at unimportant subject matter so much. Play hide the caskets. Keep the reality of the war OFF of the screens instead of what happened with Vietnam. They learned their lesson well. If the media gets hold of a story which it cannot ignore, then that story becomes the hottest thing ever.

          Once again...look at what happened when they lost control of the spin on Cindy Sheehan and Crawford.

          They can pretty well turn the cameras away from expected crises of a certain size (relatively small anti-war demonstrations, the protests at the conventions), but once something reaches a certain critical mass in the media...WATCH OUT!!!

          Screens at the bank, screens at the airport, screens in waiting rooms and restaurants and bars all over the country, screens left on in living rooms and dining rooms and kitchens and bedroom and bathrooms. all tuned to CNN or Fox, all generally serving their mumbling purpose of boring Americans into a sate of passive, current events near-catatonia.

          Suddenly, it begins to build.

          September 24th.

          September 24th.

          September 24th.

          No more hotel rooms in a 50 mile radius.

          Busses headed there from all over America.

          Not an airline or train reservation left.

          Massive traffic jams expected along the Northeast Corridor.

          Army called out.

          National Emergency declared.

          Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

          All in digital color with a scroll.

          24/7.

          (They caint HE'P themselves!!!)

          You think that wouldn't have an effect?

          I do.

          A GIGANTIC effect.

          Charles

  •  Almost passed on opening (4.00)
    your Diary - glad I didn't.

    ...we would have had this right wing media-fascist government 30 years EARLIER

    Everyone needs to read that again, because it's true.  

    We could have fixed it if these country had ever fully understood what we knew then about Vietnam, Nixon, Watergate and the GOP.  And nobody listened to us this time any better than they did thirty years ago.

    The shame is that there is a lot of blood on the souls of the willfully deaf.  Wish I could say that I hate reruns, but this is a really bad remake of a really bad movie.  And Americans are not going to get off cheaply this time.    

    What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away

    by Marie on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:09:55 PM PDT

  •  I was a little too young... (4.00)
    to be a hippie. We called ourselves freaks, and modeled ourselves after the hippies, minus the intense, political involvement. I always felt as though I was born too late. You're goddamned right about the hippies.
  •  "Girls Say Yes to Boys Who Say No" (4.00)
    'nuff said.  ;)

    "Ninety-nine miles of solid-gold track, lay on the whistle and don't look back..."

    by InquisitiveRaven on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:17:58 PM PDT

  •  Thank you for this diary (4.00)
     I just got angry at a poster on another thread who angrily blamed our generation for everything horrible in the country today. The "hippies" I hung with back them were then and will always be some of the finest people I'll ever meet. The idealism was beautiful and I say that with no irony or sarcasm whatsoever.
    •  Hippies (4.00)
      has become a right-wing shorthand.

      Fact is the hippies were RIGHT on Vietnam.

      The so-called hippies were, and are, right on Iraq.

      And Jesus, were He to return today and start preaching against the Iraq war, demanding that people feed the hungry and clothe the poor, as well as Bush's criminal and immoral 'Robin Hood' administration, he would be Hippie No. 1.

      He'd be at Gitmo getting tortured.  2,005 years later, not much has changed, eh?

      •  Also annoying me (4.00)
        the rash of hippie "jokes" I've been seeing on threads. I'll bet they're telling the same ones on the Wingnut side. How nice.
        •  Same with the pie jokes. (4.00)
          Someone disagrees with you, so ridicule them. Where have I seen that before. Oh, fucking Karl Rove.
        •  Get used to it. (none)
          Kerry's spinal collapse and the ensuing collapse of the DLC showed how much power the 'hippies' have.

          We are going to get hammered, over and over, from all points; the Progressive agenda threatens the entire political industry. Many  political factions are most opposed to the Progressive agenda because it threatens the very business of politics. Politics makes strange bedfellows (to toss my cliché on the pile...) and we have been, and will be taking lots of hits on our credibility even from people seeking our vote.

  •  There is a fabulous photograph (4.00)
    In a book I read last night about the Unitarian Universalist "Empowerment Controversy".  During the denomination's general assembly in 1969 .. I think .. The denomination was in the process of reneging on a commitment it had made to fund a Black Affairs Council the previous year.  They had shunted discussion of the issue to the end of the assembly.  The BAC took the microphones hostage, basically stopping business.  And (this detail apparently frequently left out of the telling) the Continental Youth organization's members stood with them.  The photo shows a young white man and a somewhat older (30's maybe) black man, holding hands were over the mike.  This telling of the story highlights the symbolism of the youth and the blacks standing together to protest the middle-class liberal gentility that is and was so pervasive in our denomination, indeed in our society.  The image is striking.  Somehow your diary reminds me of this.  It's not how they looked, they looked pretty shabby, it's that they dared to do.

    Heh, you may be interested to know this occured in Boston.

    Support the troops (for real)! write to any soldier

    by sberel on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:33:53 PM PDT

  •  Gall? (2.25)
    Your entire screed is nothing but galling, and I do not worship at the altar of Kerry, and backed him in the recent election only because he was my parties candidate, and while not anywhere near my first choice, was a hell of a lot better as the only viable alternative to the other party's candidate.

    That said, your tired Fright-WingTM talking point laced anti-Kerry screed is entirely irrelevant to the reality of Kerry's involvement in the anti-war movement in the 70s and how the media dealt with it and him, and as an example in the context as to how and what the current anti-war activists are facing.

    In short your rant is not only hyperbolic bullshit, but totally missing the point of the diary.

    Madder than hell?

    Then I suggest you take a deep breath, read for context next time.

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

    by Lestatdelc on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:36:17 PM PDT

    •  It's a personal attack (none)
      He's done this before, under another username.
    •  sorry (4.00)
      You are just wrong.  I don't know if you are old enough to remember how it was , but Hippies didn't turn anyone off then and they don't now.  You really should start charging rent for the space you allow the right wing to take up in your head.
      repeat after me:  "I will stop worrying about what mean thing the right wing will say."

      Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

      by TeresaInPa on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:17:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  TeresaInPa (none)
        Can you please copy your post and send it to the DNC  and the Democratic Party Leadership?

        They really need to hear it.

      •  Your right (none)
        I am a right-wing brainwashed zombie... that's way Kerry was nowhere near my first choice because he was so pathetic at countering the right-wing spin and undercutting their BS.

        Get real.

        What you utterly fail to grok, is that I am not talking about my personal attitudes or feelings towards either "the fringe" or progressive which I have no problem with and an a staunch advocate of.

        I am talking about how the uncritical unthinking middle views and perceives things.

        And you are fucking deluded if you think that the ability to castigate "hippies" and any other subculture trappings did not occur then and was ineffective, and now, remains to be seen how effective or not).

        You seem to be under the delusion I am suggesting that we cow to and play reaction to the GOP framing, which is 180 degrees backwards. I am talking about being proactive, media shrewd and define the terms of debate without the trappings that invite counters that distract from effectively framing the debate.

        cheers,

        Mitch Gore

        Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

        by Lestatdelc on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:14:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  why don't you stick to your guns? (none)
          I think I agree with part of what you're getting at.  If anti-war protestors had acted differently --particularly after 1968 as the protests became more militant--the Vietnam war might have ended sooner.  

          The problem is you make a historical argument that John Kerry had more success than "hippies" at ending the Vietnam war.  I think that historical argument is pretty weak, and the diary here takes advantage of that to make his defence of hippies rant (and it's a pretty good rant).  

          http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/27/175753/244

          Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx

          by markymarx on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:29:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Becuase I never said Kerry (none)
            had more success ending the Vietnam War, than hippies, I said he had far more success reaching "middle America" (lame geocentric nonsense term I know) was wrong and we need to get out ASAP.

            It was about how to reach an uncritical thinking audience, and not about slamming hippies which is what most here are wrongly reading into it.

            Just as Markos to my eyes was not slamming pacifists by pointing out that he is not a "hippy pacifists" so stop demanding that he or the majority of Americans and people here must be 100% pacifists in our views on foreign policy, because it is a non-starter and a truly fringe position.

            We don't need the level of militarization we have but it is deluded to suggested we do not need a strong and effective military, just as it would be to say it is wrong to have law enforcement (which is what role defense is basically on a international level)

            cheers,

            Mitch Gore

            Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

            by Lestatdelc on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:13:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Kos didn't get a reaction for saying (4.00)
              he wasn't a "hippy pacifist". He got a reaction for ridiculing the pacifist here, and for saying that that war is not inherently bad.
            •  Who do you define as (none)
              "middle America"?  I grew up in the Midwest, and the immediate reaction there to someone like Kerry in those days (and to a large extent) was that he's an elitist snob, a weakling, and a traitor.  Good Lord, anyone from Massachusetts, with that accent, was laughed at and reviled.  If you really think Kerry influenced middle America, provide some evidence please.
            •  bull-shit (none)
              I don't see any historical evidence that Kerry had more success in "reaching middle AMERICA"--although theoretically, his approach might have worked.  But we're splitting hairs here.

              You are wrong about Markos though.  He got shit for something more complicated: using REPUBLICAN rhetoric to attack fellow liberals.

              Remember, it's great to disagree--and it's not about left vs. right. However, it's never OK to use REPUBLICAN attack rhetoric and arguments against fellow liberals.      

              To put this another way, Markos got shit for being a hypocrite-- for acting in the exact way he has many times accused the DLC of, by helping our political opponents.

              Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx

              by markymarx on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 01:19:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I grok you perfectly (none)
          You are foolish enough to think that you get to control the image of those around you and exclude those you don't aprove of.  Good luck with that.  
          Get it through your head, they are going to make fun of or "castigate" the left for something no matter what we do.
          You play right into their hands.

          A much better tactic would be to come back at those making jokes etc about Hippies and shame them for their shallowness and attempt to divert the conversation.

          That's what Howard Dean would do BTW.  The man has incredible guts.  Some people could learn a lesson from him.

          You sound just like the silent generation parents with their "what will the neighbors think" whine.

          Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

          by TeresaInPa on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 10:41:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Hippies don't turn anyone off? (none)
        You can't be serious about this statement.

        There are an enormous number of Americans who are turned off by hippies, otherwise the Right Wing wouldn't use it as an insult....

        I wasn't there in the '60s, but I'm sure as hell here right now, and to claim that no-one is turned off by hippies is just as nuts as some of the things the "non-reality-based" Right are saying.

        (I'm not claiming that I'm turned off by hippies, just that there are lots of people who are. And claiming that they are right wing nutcases, or brainwashed by the right doesn't mean that they aren't people.)

        •  Yes it does. (none)
          They are automatons.

          Charles

        •  Garrison Keillor and I disagree.... (none)
          By Garrison Keillor

          Aug. 24, 2005 | I was in Mitchell, S.D. (pop. 14,000, home of the Corn Palace), not long ago standing around in a parking lot next to City Hall eating barbecue off paper plates, the way you do sometimes, with conservative, churchgoing, stick-to-business townspeople, and there, standing next to me, eating just the coleslaw (she is a vegan), was a slender young thing from Los Angeles who was in Mitchell to visit her cousins. In her 6-inch heels, she stood a little taller than I, and her hair was a swatch of brilliant atomic orange, and she wore a cut-off T-shirt revealing a large section of flat midriff with a bluish rhinestone in her bellybutton. It was her first time in Mitchell and she was having a great old time.

          Everybody was talking to everybody -- good pork barbecue will do that to you -- some of us lurking around the long grill where the hog lay with his legs splayed, picking at him, and others standing around the beer kegs, about 40 people in all, some invited, others drop-ins, and it was two congenial hours during which (as I think back on it) I didn't hear anybody talk politics. We could look at each other and sort of guess at the political vibe -- looking at the Lady of Orange, you thought feminist green Euro lefty libertarian -- and why pursue it further?

          . . .

          But Mitchell enjoys you, Mademoiselle L'Orange. It admires your spunk, your gumption, your sense of hilarity, the way you swan around us plain Midwesterners and throw your head back and laugh. You are right not to assume our disapproval. Too many Orangists do this. They tend to gravitate toward the coasts, which is perfectly understandable, but you shouldn't assume the hostility of the Great In-Between. Don't alienate people who aren't necessarily your enemy. The red/blue business is 78 percent B.S. There's a lot of purple going around, and mauve and magenta. Red or blue, we know that life can be unfair, and hard work is not necessarily rewarded. The world can be merciless. Time marches on. The precipice lies ahead. This is not a Democratic or Republican point of view -- it's common knowledge.

          And knowing that, we love being around you, vegan L.A. lady at the Mitchell barbecue with your orange hair and 6-inch heels. I'm wearing a navy blue suit and white shirt and thank you for not drawing hard and fast conclusions about my politics and taste in companions. All of us here wish you well and want you to be happy, Miss Orange. And take my word for it, this is terrific barbecue, vinegary and savory and chewy and memorable and altogether worth the loss of life. Thank you, pig.


        •  the opposite of preaching to the choir (none)
          The people that are "turned off" by hippies are folks who are probably unreachable as it is, and tend to lump anyone who smokes pot or wears their hair long into the crowd of "hippies". They get riled up about hippies and the counter-culture, and then their hatred jumps the shark. When something like Kent State happens and it becomes clear that a movement is not relegated to some backwater counter-culture fad, the credibility of the hippie-bashers is called into play, and the entire pro-war argument is stained.

          Let them hate. The hate will consume and destroy them.

          The Bush Plan:
          Step 1.: Invade Iraq.
          Step 2.: ???
          Step 3.: Democracy!

          by the good reverend on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 03:16:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  GOP rewriting 60s history for years (4.00)
    The radical conservative movement has been trying to rewrite the 60s for years and years. Obviously they have convinced many younger people with their incediary rhetoric about "hippies." It is all bullshit.

    On a secondary thought, lestatdelc's diary probably got most of it's information from the movie "Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry." While this is a fantastic movie, it does play up Kerry's effect on the whole anti-war movement.

    BTW, excellent diary. For me personally, I like getting older for the simple fact you understand the world better from having lived through so many different things. There is no substitute for years of wisdom. Of course the flip side is an ignorant, lazy fuck like President Bush who hasn't learned one thing in his entire life.

    The Bush administration is a Travesty of a Mockery of a Sham!

    by Bailey Savings and Loan on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:42:07 PM PDT

    •  I Remember Kerry and VVAW Very Well (none)
      And I remember that they surfaced long after the war began troubling scholars and college kids.

      If we're to have an Iraq War 'John Kerry' and IVAW, they're not due to testify till the 2008 campaign is getting underway.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:32:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  To be fair to the director (none)
      The point is made in the film that the anti-war movement had been going strong for five years before Kerry got involved. The film focuses on Kerry's role (that's what the film is about), but it does not imply that the role of anyone else was less important.

      . . . solutions emerge from [our] judicious study of discernible reality.

      by realitybased on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:17:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  for fuck's sake (2.33)
    grab a bar of soap and take a shower you pothead freak!

    --Liberate your radio--

    by Sam Loomis on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:45:16 PM PDT

  •  Yeah, it takes a lot of nerve ... (4.00)
    on the part of the "youngsters" around here to bash a generation of people who:

    -- attempted in their daily lives to reject materialism.

    -- attempted in their daily lives to find new, communal "it takes a village" ways to live outside of the patriarchal nuclear family.

    -- risked their future careers and "material success" by protesting at college campuses nationwide against an unlawful war.

    -- explored new paths (and older ones) of spirituality.

    -- formalized the environmental movement and the movement toward organic foods.

    -- led the way in the fight for loosening of drug laws.

    -- showed up and showed up and showed up at demonstration after demonstration after demonstration, even when it seemed like it was doing no good.

    -- were kicked, billy clubbed, gassed, arrested, beaten -- and killed -- when protesting for peace.

    -- helped legitimize the fight for civil rights in middle class white America.

    Yeah, what a bunch of losers. Stupid hippies.

    I tell you, it makes me despair to see this part of our American history trashed on a liberal site. Seriously. All the old Nixonian crap bought hook, line and sinker.

    Yes, the idealism of that generation was misplaced and seems sort of ... quaint now, doesn't it? But you know, I'd rather cast my lot with a generation that thinks it can change the world -- and actually tries to live those changes -- than be part of later, too-cool and cynical generations that scorn that idealism and commitment.

    •  Did you read my diary? (none)
      Which is not at all what this diary is portraying it as?

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

      by Lestatdelc on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:50:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not to mention (4.00)
      the sexual revolution.
    •  Hippies (4.00)
      Hey Susan, You rock!

      Mikolo

    •  Don't worry Susan, the Heroic Millenials (none)
      are coming.  They will be a definate improvement over the short sighted uptight Reagan youth of the GenXers.

      Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

      by TeresaInPa on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:20:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  For the love of Pete! (4.00)
        That's it.  Why the hell did Markos Moulitsas, GENERATION X, create this blog?  To have his entire generation pissed on by the likes of you?

        Who died and appointed you the arbiter of generational acceptability?  Truly, where do you get off?

        At this point, I don't even care if what Markos or Mitch said was reasonable, I'm just disgusted by your attitude toward my generation.  It's really appalling.

        And as for the person upstream who said they prefer hippies to yuppies, may I remind you that they are both manifestations of the SAME generation?  YOURS!

        No wonder we have a reputation for hating the Boomers, all you ever do is tell us how much better you were than we are and how you guys did everything right.  

        When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

        by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:50:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What is your problem? (none)
          Why do you hate people who were born before you so much?

          Chill!

          •  um, see above, sir. (none)
            She's the one who brings the hate, I am reacting to her.  Why does she think those born after her are so horrible?

            When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

            by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:50:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe because (4.00)
              she hates her generation being dumped on as much as you hate your generation being dumped on.  

              She's reacting.  Your reacting.  Hopefully you'll remember this argument when those born after you accuse you of the same intolerance.  If you're doubting it will happen, I think you're in for an eye opening experience.

              Just because a person has faith doesn't mean that he isn't full of crap.-- Pastordan

              by Maggie Mae on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:25:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wage LOVE, not WAR (none)
                Was a great slogan.

                Perhaps if some of the people in this discussion tried to live it, things would chill out a bit around here.

                Personally, I think the really angry hippies in this discussion have a lot in common with the fundamentalist wing-nuts on the right.

                Both groups seem to have an overabundance of anger.

                Both groups seem to have forgotten that the basis of their movement was supposed to be peace in the face of hostility, and tolerance of those less perfect than themselves.

                •  I believe the phrase (none)
                  was Make love, not war.  Which, held a double meaning, considering it was coined during the sexual revolution.

                  Just because a person has faith doesn't mean that he isn't full of crap.-- Pastordan

                  by Maggie Mae on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:19:34 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Hate? Horrible? (none)
              Whoo-eee!  HillaryK is in a pissin' contest with SusanG.

              Cool.  Hillary, you better get your nouns and verbs all lined up.  This is gonna get interesting.

        •  I just prefer my childrens generation to (1.00)
          the children of those horrible silent generation people.

          Hey Hilary, If I gave you ten dollars whould you buy a sense of humor?

          Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

          by TeresaInPa on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:03:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Now (2.00)
            your ignorance along with your arrogance is showing.

            First of all you obviously didn't read Strauss and Howe closely enough as they hardly idolized the Boomer generation and were extremely blunt in pointing out their LEGION of failings.

            Second you don't even seem to recognize that most of the boomers are the offspring of the Silents and that most GenXers are the offspring of Boomers.

            Finally you sure have an open liberal mind to make such sweeping generalizations about entire generations.  Where do the blacks and the Jews fir into your worldview?

            (Cross-posted in my pants)

            by Calishfornia on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:18:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nope, wrong (none)
              Most GenXers are children of the silents.  Boomers parents were born in the 20s and 30s.

              Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

              by TeresaInPa on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 02:04:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Bull (none)
                My parents are Boomers themselves, and I'm an early X-er.

                Your gross generalizations have become tiresome.  Please play your divide and conquer tactics over on Freepville.

              •  In the future (2.00)
                you should actually read the book you quote as scripture before spouting off complete inaccuracies.

                According to Mmssrs. Strauss and Howe, the silent generation was born 1925-1942, the boomers 1943-1960 and the 13ers or Genx 1961-1981.  And the parents of Genx are a split between Silent and Boom but are predominantly Boomers since people got married and had children at a younger age in that era.

                So just about everything you have said is not only arrogant, immature and foolish tripe, it is also factually JUST WRONG.

                Nice work.  You represent your generation well...

                (Cross-posted in my pants)

                by Calishfornia on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 05:41:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Wow (none)
            Our saviors will be the people who gave us Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears as role models?!?  Ah yes, we'll be in such good hands.

            You know, private social security accounts are starting to sound really good if it keeps my hard earned $$ from going to selfish boomers like yourself.  You can rely on the Millenials to keep you in a style to which you've become accustomed.

          •  Thanks (none)
            for the divide and conquer.  

            If this is what Boomers really think, then it is no wonder we're on the losing end of so many elections.

      •  And (none)
        an even grander improvement over the uptight arrogant narcissists who to this day think it is still all about them.

        Glory "daze" indeed...

        (Cross-posted in my pants)

        by Calishfornia on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:02:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is still all about us (1.00)
          We out number everyone else. No matter what age we are, that is the age the market place and politicians have to cater to.
          When it stops being all about us, it's going to be all about out kids who also outnumber GenXers.
          Sucks to be you I guess.

          LOL.. and here is a 1 in repayment for the one you gave me, just to keep you honest.

          Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

          by TeresaInPa on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:09:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Hippies were NOT a generation (none)
      The hippies were a subculture, not a generation.

      My parents are boomers, but definitely anti-hippie.

      And they are both Dems, BTW.

      If you want to talk about your entire generation, and not just the hippie subculture, then you better bring the yuppies into it.  And add the current Iraq war to the list of things your generation has accomplished.  (Last I heard, our current president was in your generation.)

      •  Our current president... (none)
        was a skirt-chasing, beer-soaked, C-average rich Yalie, who later couldn't believe that white people in the film, "The Grapes of Wrath" could be so poor; they were just plain lazy in his view.

        Yuppies weren't necessarily former hippies.  Frankly, some people PLAYED at being hippies by adopting the dress and the demeanor but definitely not the politics.  Same thing happened when reggae hit in the early Seventies.  Everybody became a head, everybody wanted to go to Jamaica, everybody tried to sound as if they had spent years smoking weed.  When play time was over, they cut their hair and went on Wall Street.  I know of one hippie friend who called them 'rich hippies.'

        The people you are reading here may not have cut their hair, are paying taxes, and are still trying to live up to the ideals they professed when they were young.  That's beyond playacting.

        I've also heard that thousands of former S.D.S'ers (Students for a Democratic Society, before they went ultraradical with Weatherman) are sitting in boardrooms across the country right now.  But they weren't hippies, either.  They were political.

        An untypical Negro...since 1954.

        by blksista on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 09:36:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well, y'know Susan, we're going to... (4.00)
      ...have to do what we can.

      I don't know about you, but I knew alot of the folks whose names get bandied about - Ginsberg, Mailer, Le Roi (sorry - Amiri) - when I was a kid.  Sigh... the plaint of youth - I didn't realize how important they were to my understanding of the world.  Or how patient they were.

      And even more than the knowledge (which is ephemeral), or the patience (which may be the most valuable gift I have ever received), my own particular thing is that there is always humor...

      I mean, c'mon - looked at in a certain way - John Bolton?

      I've only recently come to realize how difficult it must have been for them, though.  Energy levels down with encroaching decrepitude, the need to devote myself to an art long put off, the fear for my child, and the desire for peace that hits us all as we grow older.

      Ah, shit - where's the goddamn demonstration this week?  What's bail in this pieceashit town?

      Fuck it.  Let's go...

      JF

    •  Do you really.... (3.00)
      ...think the majority of hippies tried to do any of that? Come ON! And a lot of frat boys today looooove hip-hop. You can find them in the club, bottle full of bub, a Natty Light's all they need if some poor chick is going to get rubbed! Culture and authenticity rarely coincide. And the authentic ones weren't succesful in implementing their ideals anyway. And then the idea that the authentic ones kept trying to do all that and so we should still listen to them -- after it failed politically or materially -- is even more ludicrous. The idea of countercultural soldarity was so beautiful it should've worked but didn't. Untie us from this yoke of nostalgia and pyrrhic idealism, please.
      •  You don't know what you're talking about (none)
        Hippies (or freaks, as they were known from about 1968 on) were an obvious minority. The first kid with long hair who attended the high school I graduated from had stones thrown at him his first day in school.

        There weren't "hangers-on" in 1968. Everybody I knew who had long hair was involved in the peace movement. There just weren't any people who changed their appearance and failed to change their mindsets as well.

        Of course on a deeper level we didn't have the tools to change our basic neuroses. Your post is accurate in that sense. Yet those same hippies also were among the first American students of Buddhist and Hindu spiritual masters.

        Having typed all this I realize that I agree with more of your post than I thought. So I'm giving you a second rating to balance the first.

    •  Amen Sister! (4.00)
      And most of us never quit.  

      About 15 or 16 years ago, I was going door to door in a community offering to take free hair samples to test for toxins arising from a nearby cement plant that was burning really bad stuff to clean the kilns - and I got called an old hippie who hadn't learned to leave well enough alone.  

      A year and a half later, that woman called me crying because her baby was born without a brain.  Which was one of the horrors we had been finding in that community and in the communities in the path of the wind.  

      Got audited by the IRS for my FOIA to the EPA over it as well.  And it didn't stop me or the other 20 old hippies doing the work.  

  •  Not hippies (4.00)
    It's not hippies I point the finger at, but Boomers.   Some did and still do wonderful things, but others did and are still doing so much harm in so many areas.  Virtual vaccum cleaners, one giant sucking sound  And just about every GenX-er who's had to follow in their footsteps will agree.  

    I liken it to clear cutting the Amazon.  All around you is devastation and branches of smoke curl up into the sky.  There's a few strands of trees left and all the people are huddled around and in them.  It will take years for new trees to grow and things will never be the same.  But you won't be around to see those new trees reach to the sky.  No.  It won't happen in your lifetime.  You are looking at your existence.  Perhaps you'll get lucky and find a bush to call your own or a space will open up in or around one of the scattered strands.  So, you shrug, step forward, and get on with your life.

    •  Gen-X whining at it's best! (none)

      The Bush administration is a Travesty of a Mockery of a Sham!

      by Bailey Savings and Loan on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:56:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If it weren't for hippy boomers ... (4.00)
      You wouldn't even be able to glimpse one tree or bush left in the distance that is being huddled around.

      Where do you think the environmental movement came from? What activists popularized it and took shit and got told they were hippy dippy goofballs for objecting to corporate America dropping its sludge in the streams, its carcinogens in the air or having DDT sprayed on everything we eat?

      You think the World War II generation brought you that? Sorry, there's a reason they were known as "silent." You think Generation X brought you that? I don't think so.

      •  whining (none)
        Okay, okay, it was whining.  But I clearly said there only a few to blame.  I appreciate what many of the "hippies" did for all of us.  And the music was great!
        •  Reality bites (none)

          The Bush administration is a Travesty of a Mockery of a Sham!

          by Bailey Savings and Loan on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:28:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  GenX (4.00)
          Susan,

          I am GenX and we as a generation have also had our failings.  I would say our biggest failure is apathy, where it became cool not to vote or care because...well, for lack of a better word, whatever.  I was never part of the apathy crew, but ir cut a large swath through my generation.  

          My generation is slowly changing and becoming involved, though.  In fact, some of the most apathetic people I knew have become virulently political thanks to Bush.  There's a silver lining in everything.

          •  What we need .... (4.00)
            is to stop bashing each other. These two generations  need other like no two generations have ever needed each other before.

            I feel like the future of democracy depends on us coming not just to some sort of understanding, but to a deep and trusting and respectful mutuality.

            Generation X needs to tap into hippy Boomer idealism. Boomers need to tap into Generation X's energy and practicality.

            It's ALL of our futures at stake.

            And having this whole hippie bashing parade of the past few days has been painful painful painful.

            •  Yep (none)
              We're all in it together.

              Now give me a hug!

            •  No kidding, I guess I skipped the hippie bashing (none)
              parade so this thread is just depressing.

              I expect the DLC v. Liberals bitch offs but I wasn't expecting a Boomers v. Gen X'er battle.

              Trust me, I wouldn't choose to have had Reagan be President from the time was 11 until I could finally vote.  Ha, I didn't get to choose, my parents and the baby boomers did.

              I hope everybody gets this out of their systems quick and we can move on to more productive outlets.

              I guess a little venting is necessary sometimes.

          •  Gen-Xers have good reason (4.00)
            to be apathetic.  How discouraging it must have been to grow up under Reagan and Bush--opportunities were stunted.  When I left home in 1967, I could get by on about $50 a week.  For years, I didn't have to work full-time to survive. Then came Nixon and spiraling inflation.  After 1974, things got hard for regular people.  It's really sad what has happened to this country.
      •  Damn (3.50)
        You hippies did fucking everything!  All praise the hippies!  We are unworthy!  We are unworthy!  Here's the thing.  As a member of the younger generation who has been involved in activist politics since I was a teenager it becomes tiresome to continue to hear how your generation did this, your generation did that, and be dismissive of the work that I and others of my age were doing.  Yes, we make fun of hippies all the time because but their patronizing, self-righteousness is just fucking annoying when you are trying to change the world and they can't pull their heads out of the fucking 60s.  <rant>

        George W. Bush makes Reagan look smart, Nixon look honest, and his dad look coherent.

        by Dave the pro on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:23:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tactics (none)
          I think it's a matter of tactics.  As in, the world has changed, times have changed, and most importantly, communication has changed.  
        •  ::applause:: (none)
          Well played, Dave, I repeat, you ARE the pro!

          When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

          by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:54:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Good work has always built on what went before. (none)
          Every generation thinks that they begam something fundamentally new.  Let me make a safe prediction - the next generation is going to feel like it created something fundamentally new as well.  And they will be calling you patronizing and self-righteous too.  To some extent, there complaints are true, just as to some extent your complaints are true, just as the complaints the previous generation made about their previous generation were true to some extent.

          There's plenty of self-righteousness to go around.  Perhaps self-righteousness is easily seen by those who are themselves self-righteous.  And I it would be a safe bet that I have no immunity against self-righteousness myself.

      •  Actually, we can thank Nixon for that. (none)
        Ah, the irony....

        Now, no snide comments about Reagan Youth -- I was a DSA member in college and studied with Michael Harrington, my leftist street cred is unimpeachable (pun intended).

        When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

        by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:53:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Just what is it that Boomers have done, guy? (none)
      It's not hippies I point the finger at, but Boomers.   Some did and still do wonderful things, but others did and are still doing so much harm in so many areas.

      You are not being specific.

      An untypical Negro...since 1954.

      by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:03:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Specific? (none)
        They sold out.  Became selfish.  And lost contact with the greater good.  Remember the "Me"  Decade.  I do.  
        •  Gotcha.... (none)
          Well, not all of them sold out.

          Which is why some of us are responding tonight...

          An untypical Negro...since 1954.

          by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:14:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah... (none)
            And I so respect and honor that.  We gain much from legacies, from those who have gone before us.  The lessons we learn may not always be positive, but we do learn and grow by them.  

            So, thanks to all of you hippies!  I mean it.  I may not think many of the tactics used in the 60's and 70's are applicable today, but the heart sure is.

        •  The "Me Decade" (4.00)
          a phrase dreamed up by Tom Wolfe, who voted for Bush in 2004.  Don't believe everything you read.
          •  Wasn't around for '60s, but was for '80s (none)
            So what if the guy who made the term voted for Bush.  It still applies.

            I was in High School and College during the '80s, so if all the boomers and hippies are such experts on the '60s and '70s I'm just as much an expert on the '80s.  And the '80s were all about greed, corporate consolidation, get rich quick, and fuck thy neighbor (in the non-60's sense).

            •  Yes, but (none)
              that doesn't mean that the greedy folks in the 80s were all hippies who sold out.  That's what the person who started this claimed.  Some of those greed head may have been ex-hippies, but most were just privileged assholes like GW Bush who sat out the '60s doing whatever they do.
          •  Wolfe (none)
            Of course, Tom Wolfe wasn't exactly a hippie. Or even a Boomer. He was born in 1931, he's old enough to have fought in Korea (but didn't), and by the Summer of Love, he was nearly twice the age of the kids he was hanging out with.

            Those who do not learn from history are stupid. --darrelplant

            by darrelplant on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 10:40:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  maybe they just had to buy into... (none)
          ....the whole career thing, house thing, etc. so they could afford to put food on the table for you and your generational brothers and sisters.

          There are many who lust for the simple answers of doctrine or decree. They are on the left and right. They are terrorists of the mind. -- A. Bartlett Giamatti

          by FemiNazi on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:50:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You are wrong. We did not sell out. (none)
          Bankers kept on banking, teachers kept on teaching, farmers kept on farming, but hippies provided a new lense for viewing the world.

          The repurcussions and backlash continue.

        •  Some of those middle aged folk (4.00)
          down there with Cindy? Or at the vigils across the country? They are part and parcel of the Boomers you're talking about.

          They fought fights that the next generation let go of. They handed off the baton, which got dropped a couple three times.

          They were tired...they fought some big fights.

          "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

          by kredwyn on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:59:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I know (none)
            If you look at all my comments above, you would see that I know that.  And I respect and honor that.
            •  I didn't...then did (4.00)
              yes...some of us Gen-Xers who were in HSchool during the first bout of Reaganism were apathetic. I remember standing in the hall waiting for the next class and thinking that nothing mattered since Reagan had the button...that was gonna be it.

              "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

              by kredwyn on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:15:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Maps of nuclear distruction (4.00)
                I remember going to assemblies in grade-school, and being shown maps of the Portland Metro area with big circles centered on the Willamette River.  Each circle was associated with a different size of bomb, and how big the fireball would be.

                I distincly remember walking to the library with my little brother in about 1981, and hearing the warning siren go off.  I just hugged him and started crying, because I knew we only had about 1/2 hour until we were going to be incinerated.  (The bastards could have told us they were testing the system.)

                I've never really thought about it much, but until the Berlin Wall came down, I was very apathetic about politics, and the sense of what does it matter, the human race is doomed probably played a huge part in that.

                In the 50s and 60s, people were taught to duck and cover.  In the late 70s-80's we were taught that it was hopeless.

                As I said in an earlier post, the hippies I knew in Eugene understood that everyone is a product of their environment, and they were positive, helpful people.

                •  Bartman and HillaryK (none)
                  Your contributions to this diary have been great.  I love reading discussions like this, because I get to hear about the real experiences of people of different ages and different backgrounds.  That's what I loved about going back to school in my 40's.  I got to talk to "kids" in their 20s and 30s, and maybe I was able to share some of my experience with them too.

                  I'm a psychologist, so I always see things from the psychological point of view, I guess.  What's happening with my generation right now is that we are in what Erikson called the stage of generativity.  If our development is proceeding in a positive way, we want to give back and to help the younger generations.  

                  Of course what we have to say is irritating and boring at times.  Our memories of the '60s are tinged with nostalgia for the days when we were young and beautiful.  I didn't like hearing my parents talk about the depression and WWII either--but I'm OK with it now.  I'm glad I listened to some of it.

                  For me, my future is making sure I can leave something good behind when I go.  That's hard for me, because I kind of frittered away my 20s and 30s (alcohol, drugs, failed marriages, depression) and started over in my 40s.  I'm working on a Ph.D. right now and I just hope I can finish.  Who knows if I'll ever get a real job.

                  I just hope your generation can fight back against what's happening now in government, media, and corporations.  And I just hope my young nieces and nephews (and grand-nephew) will have a world worth living in.  I love those kids so much!

  •  Hippie checking in here. (4.00)
    The sixties were a scary, searing stretch.  Let's not do that again, music be damned

    (I miss Janis.  Nobody covers her stuff.  Why is that?)

    I'm still a hippie but I blend in.  You'd never know, meeting me on the street, that I'm 'way out there on the left.

    Let's just make a pact and get the work done starting with single payer health care.

    This is a very emotional diary for me.  We thought we'd fixed some things.  WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED?

    •  Because... (4.00)
      (I miss Janis.  Nobody covers her stuff.  Why is that?)

      ...no one could do it justice.

    •   Re: Janis - Because... (none)
      ...no one could do her justice
    •  Am I a hippie? (4.00)
      I've been a roadie for the same SF rock band for 37 years, the last band standing from those days.  We still do a few shows each year when our singer isn't on tour with Chicago and the horn players aren't on tour with the Doobies and the guitar player isn't touring with Huey Lewis.

      The only time I spoke to Janis, I was at her house in Larkspur and she was wearing only red panties and red shoes.  For years I had her Southern Comfort bottle from the last Big Brother show.

      I smoked a joint once with Jerry Garcia.  His joint, and he stuck it in my mouth and lit it for me.

      Bill Graham once personally threw me out of the Fillmore.  After that, we became friends.

      I'm also a US Army veteran, E-5, and I began protesting the war as soon as I hit the streets as a civilian in 1968.  I haven't owned a necktie since I last wore my Army uniform, I still don't get haircuts, I still don't shave, and I pull down very good money running my own business.

      Eat your hearts out Gen-Xers.  I have never had to compromise a single principle from those days.  You should be so lucky.

      It don't mean a feng if it ain't got that shui.

      by Doc Bogus on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:33:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You must have some long, lustrous hair, dude (none)
        n/t

        An untypical Negro...since 1954.

        by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:37:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Graham... (none)
        Sure sounds like he could be a real prick from everything I've read, but then again, he had vision.  VISION.
      •  Sons of Champlin (4.00)
        I remember the name, but can't recall any tunes.  You were on some of the rock posters, also.  Always obscure, even now. Funny they got to be the last ones standing. I hadn't realised till you mentioned it.

        Be that as it may, you are right on. Whole lot of us got free and stayed free, and raised free kids, too, and those kids are having free grandchildren. And most of us still keep the faith, honor the truths we stumbled onto in our wild explosion into freedom. I'm a lot more subtle about it, but I live even free-er than I did back then.

        "Free", you say, "what do you mean, "free'?"

        Free to march to my own drummer, I could say. Or free to do exactly as I choose, because I am unbound from conventional wisdom, even if I may choose to respect it at times.

        And I sure haven't ever sniveled about who or what was keeping me down, or asked anybody for my freedom. I just took it.

        And I'm hardly the only one...

        don't always believe what you think...

        by claude on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:40:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  more, please (none)
        "Bill Graham once personally threw me out of the Fillmore.  After that, we became friends."

        I'd like to hear that story. :)

        The Bush Plan:
        Step 1.: Invade Iraq.
        Step 2.: ???
        Step 3.: Democracy!

        by the good reverend on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 03:20:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You got to keep them fixed is what... (4.00)
      We thought we'd fixed some things.  WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED?

      You just can't sit on your laurels and say, I'm through.  Winger thinking is as opportunistic as a virus.

      And guess what...my prayer is that the Sixties do come again--fast--and this time, we'll get it right.

      (...and Janis won't have to suffer any more.)

      An untypical Negro...since 1954.

      by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:35:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The people who know do (none)
      It was nice to hear Peggt Fleming on PBS News Hour recound the artist of her youth and their sounds. She only mentioned Roy Orbison and Janis Joplin. They are in the memories of the ones that matter.
    •  I love Janis! (none)
      I've not heard the cover, but I understand Melissa Etheridge performed 'Piece of My Heart' at the Grammys this year and the song will be on a forth-coming album.

      Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act. - Orwell

      by TracieLynn on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 05:51:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you (4.00)
    You've put into words what has been on my mind since all this hippie bashing started.  I wore the clothes, big deal.  I also was there for sit-ins and marched in protests.  I linked arms with people in suits, priests, nuns, doctors, lawyers, etc.  We had passion in our convictions and would not let anyone sway us from our beliefs.  We refused to give in or give up.

    All of my friends were hippies.  We graduated from high school, had jobs and went to college.  We took heat from parents who were outraged that we would question our government.  When our parents finally saw the light and came around to our way of thinking, we didn't say "I told you so".  We embraced them for finally understanding why we refused to be carbon copies of their generation.

    My only regret, is that I thought when we won our battles that we would never have to fight them again.  I was wrong.  I didn't teach my children to question those in authority.  I've learned from my mistake and will teach my grandchildren what I should have taught my children.

  •  the remnants of that movement (4.00)
    In my still hippiesque town, roughly four out of five people who attended the Sheehan Peace Vigil were greying hippie remnants.

    Sadly ironic that the people who were protesting a war in which their friends were dying, are now the ones protesting a war in which their children are dying.

    I bring this up not so much to crow about the hippies, but more of a scratch my head wondering where the draft age protestors are.  Maybe they will be more of a factor if the draft is reinstated.

    Just to place myself in history, the year I hit  high school draft registration age was either the first or second that nobody was even required to register.  The lottery had been stopped several years before that.  My most vivid memory of the Vietnam War was the nightly body count on the tv news.  Like some kind of weird sports score recap.

    I Am The King Of The Eleven Comment Diary

    by CalbraithRodgers on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:56:53 PM PDT

  •  Aum! Aum! Aum! (4.00)
    Peace!

    I regret that I ain't old enough to have witnessed the hippie movement in its glory days.

    So someone tell me, are hippies these long-haired, free-spirited people walking around with their heads in the clouds? Hmm? Are these the "hippies" that you speak of? They vehemently opposed war and violence and facism and imperialism and nuclear weapons and such, no?

    Then I think I may know of a few hippies. Jesus Christ was one. Albert Einstein another. Perhaps Carl Sagan, though he probably cut his hair short for his TeeVee show.

    •  do you mean "om"?.................n/t (none)

      There are many who lust for the simple answers of doctrine or decree. They are on the left and right. They are terrorists of the mind. -- A. Bartlett Giamatti

      by FemiNazi on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:53:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Same thing (none)
          Aum and Om are two versions of the same Sanskrit syllable.  In Sanskrit linguistics, the vowel o arises from the combination of a and u.  It gets pronounced au when there's another a prefixed, so aum is really a+om.  But I believe they were used in the same way.
  •  Damn.... (4.00)
    Everybody sure is getting excited over this diary.

    Without the youth movement of the `60s and `70s...we would have had this right wing media-fascist government 30 years EARLIER.

    That comment of yours is along the lines of something that I have been pondering recently. What if Nixon hadn't been brought down? It's scary to consider what this country might have been like. As a couple of people have mentioned one of our big mistakes was getting complacent and letting ourselves this same bunch of thugs get control of the country again.

    quando os assholes governam dirĂ£o aos pobres que a merda tem o valor
    Revised Portuguese folk wisdom

    by mm201 on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:57:36 PM PDT

  •  Man, am I with you or what? (4.00)
    Been down the rabbit hole.  Seen some things.

    Youngsters ought to ask us what went on back in the day instead of pronouncing what never was.

    Norman Mailer rocks.  Didn't win the Pulitzer for being irrelevant.

    The Axis of Evil runs somewhere between K Street and Constitution Avenue.

    by DanielMN on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 06:58:54 PM PDT

    •  UGH! (none)
      mailer hates women!

      There are many who lust for the simple answers of doctrine or decree. They are on the left and right. They are terrorists of the mind. -- A. Bartlett Giamatti

      by FemiNazi on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:53:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree that writers are weird, being one myself (none)
        Him and Burroughs either knifed or shot their wives--always by mistake.  Difference is that Mailer is a roaring, severe masculinist het fixated on his reportedly pretty big schlong.  Which is probably another reason why he wanted to hang with black hipsters and smoke dope.

        And also reportedly, he still smokes dope.

        Kinda superfluous now that he's in his 80s, but his takes on Bush are pretty dead on.

        An untypical Negro...since 1954.

        by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:13:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well, of course... (none)
          ...writers are wierd. ya gotta be to bare your soul in such an intimate thing as a novel.

          i threw tough guys don't dance across the room about halfway through. yet executioner's song still resonates with me.

          learning that he quite possibly still smokes dope actually makes me want to warm up to him just a tiny bit ;)

          There are many who lust for the simple answers of doctrine or decree. They are on the left and right. They are terrorists of the mind. -- A. Bartlett Giamatti

          by FemiNazi on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:26:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Armies of the Night (none)

            The Axis of Evil runs somewhere between K Street and Constitution Avenue.

            by DanielMN on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:30:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Went Web crawling to see (none)
            whether he still smokes weed...and he claims he kicked cannabis twelve years ago, in 1993.

            His son, John Buffalo Mailer, has become editor of High Times.  He smokes weed occasionally.

            Check out the web mag Beatrice; there is an old interview (1999) with a biographer of his who indicated that Mailer has become increasingly conservative in some respects, and that it was Roy Cohn who got him the Random House gig where he gets gazillions for 600-page screeds.  I am not kidding.

            Then again, Kerouac reverted to winger pronouncements against hippies and hipsters under the haze of drink right in front of Ginsberg and William F. Buckley...so nothing surprises me these days.

            Hitchens, any one?

            An untypical Negro...since 1954.

            by blksista on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:40:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Mailer: Enemies list party (none)
          Mailer threw a great party for everyone on the Nixon enemies list a few months after the resignation.

          So far as I'm aware, I was the only one to make that list while still under 18.

          No-one who voted against the USAPATRIOT Act has lost an election. I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State. Or Yours.

          by ben masel on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:34:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Excuse me but it's ironic (4.00)
    and quite funny to see 'hippies', who's credo was to ignore the older generation and leave them behid, demanding that markos respect his elders!

    Hippies demanding what their parents demanded of them and what they ignored. Come on, that's funny.

    Darkness washed over the Dude...darker than a black steer's tookus on a moonlight prairie night...there was no bottom

    by moon in the house of moe on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:00:17 PM PDT

    •  I replied to this above. (4.00)
      Short answer...this is revisionist, media inspired pseudo-history.

      We just didn't like the neo-cons. (Hadn't invented as hip a word for them, is all.)

      Name ONE major activist or artist of the time who who did not refer back to his or her predecessors.

      Dylan...Guthrie.

      The whole rock movement...the blues and country bands of the '30s and before.

      The jazz players...back to the bebop players of the late '40s and before.

      Most of the political activists...college educated students of the revolutions of the past.

      Well read, deeply committed fighters, most of the serious ones. And the SERIOUS ones are the ones who got things done.

      Revisionist bullshit.

      Charles

      P.S. Get a grammar book.

      •  You know, you may be right (4.00)
        The real leaders built on the past, didn't sever themselves from it. Just the jerks.   Elsewhere I'd written today

        Basically kos is a typical gen x brat who feels the need to insult the previous generation. He can enjoy acting out but the fact is that everything progressive now, from civil rights to the women's movement, to resisting a bad war has roots in the courage of the generation he belittles.

        Darkness washed over the Dude...darker than a black steer's tookus on a moonlight prairie night...there was no bottom

        by moon in the house of moe on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:35:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  A '4' for the first part of your reply. (none)
          You know, you may be right
          The real leaders built on the past, didn't sever themselves from it...
          Well said!

          Wish I could say as much about the rest of your post.

          "Say kids, What time is it?" - Buffalo Bob Smith

          by SteveK on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:55:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I would have been a hippy had I been awake (4.00)
    Back in those days I was a repug and was a legal secretary. My boyfriend was a repug and was an attorney. I do not remember one conversation we ever had about the Vietnam War,it frankly did not exist for us. It was not something that mattered to "our kind of people." Ironically enough my dad went to Vietnam for six months at the age of 44 and died in his sleep from unknown causes about three months after he returned. Still no connect for me. It wasn't until the Clinton impeachment hearings that I got disgusted by the hypocracy and switched parties. By that time, both my mother and father were dead. I would like to believe that they would both be democrats now were they still alive.
  •  Charleslives (4.00)
    you are my hero --

    and you are so right - what the "babies" do not know is the parallels between then and now.

    - and you're correct - the right wing would have been here 30 years earlier.

    We will never end terrorism by terrorizing others -- bumper sticker on I-5

    by sara seattle on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:05:13 PM PDT

  •  the 60s - if you remember them... (none)
    you weren't there.
    "dirty commie pinko hippie"... ummm, no i don't remember calling myself a hippie. the only person i remember calling himself a hippie was al sleet.
    lot's of people protested the vietnam war. lot's of 'em had hair. we protested for years & years. we are way ahead of the vietnam protests today.
    i was a political freak. there were freaks who were only into drugs & sex & rock & roll. civil rights were a controversial topic. believe it or not, martin luther king, jr was not such a popular or revered figure in the early 60s & not that popular when he was killed in '68 either. i'm guessing most of the straight establishment thought of him as a rabble rouser.
    john kerry was an anti war hero to me, not a war hero. i remember the kerry-o'neill debates on dick cavett. john o'neill had nothing to say about his service then.
    lestatdelc's diary is not his best stuff. bashing "hippies" is pretty pointless. those of us that survived have families & jobs & vote.

    i'm an agnostic, i'd be an atheist if it weren't for mozart

    by rasbobbo on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:06:17 PM PDT

  •  bitter rant (none)
    I'm not a hippie really, not what most mean by that... but I'd say the empty shell of the hippies were the one that went on to vote for Reagan.

    What remains there is a bohemian culture which has traditions, values, and a soul.

    it's not perfect, I wish it would vote, but still, it has what the Democrats lack... tradition, values, and especially a soul.

    I find it laughable about how the part of society for whom dropping out and tuning in was just a way to find people to sleep with, a fashion, and a way to say "screw you dad!" think that when they left... all that remained was the past.

    yeah right.

    Jimi Hendrix knew the hippies would cut off all their hair.  And the culture that a bunch of rich kids leached off for a while goes on... and yeah, you can take your John Kerry's and stuff em.  He's the last of that type you can expect my support on.

    We have to choose sides?  Ok.  I'll choose a soul.

    I choose the underground.  Good luck to the rest of you.  With friends like you, who needs enemies?

    •  No it was the GenXer who voted for Reagan (2.50)
      and both bushes.  If it weren't for Perot they would have voted poppy in twice.  
      Thank God there is a new generation coming of age now who voted for Kerry and will vote for better democrats later.

      Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

      by TeresaInPa on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:27:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  wrrronnnng... (4.00)
        genxers were about 10 years old during reagan sister girl... and bush I was condemned utterly by genxers...

        Jesus: "Destroy this Temple" - Gospel of John

        by The Gnostic on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:30:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wrong...genXers where just coming of age (none)
          in the early 80s.  There were born from 1962 on.

          Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

          by TeresaInPa on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:31:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  still wrong.. (4.00)
            ..that means that only those born IN 62 could have voted for reagan, being 18 then... try again?  i was 10 in 1980 and i am as gen x as it gets, living in my prime through the grunge phase... oh and i fucking HATED Bush I.

            Jesus: "Destroy this Temple" - Gospel of John

            by The Gnostic on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:55:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  what's your beef with gen xers anyway? (none)

            Jesus: "Destroy this Temple" - Gospel of John

            by The Gnostic on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:56:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  GenXers start in 1965 (none)
            They would have been 15 when Reagan came in and they would have been old enough to reelected him and then Herbert.  

            With the devastation of Nam still in the memory, we were hit with two gas crises, the Iran hostages, and racked by inflation.  Interest rates hit 22%.  Just try buying a house when you're a young couple at that kind of interest rate.  And, it was difficult to get a mortgage loan because the money was choked up elsewhere.

            Reagan was elected because America needed the psychological lift he gave them.  We had never lost at anything before Vietnam and the country bought into Reagan's "shining city on the hill."

            Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

            by bronte17 on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:47:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  baby boom (none)
              should really be a sliding scale as a cultural movement.

              I was born in 1961 to ww2 parents -- their seventh child.  I am baby boom, even though I did not live through the fifties, because I was born into a family that did.

              I had friends whose parents were a generation younger than mine.  Those parents had been kids in world war 2.  Their children were much more like gen xers than like baby boomers.

              Platitudinous speeches before friendly audiences won't calm unsettled minds. DMN

              by sophiebrown on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 08:16:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  GenXer here (none)
        I wasn't old enought to vote for Reagan, but I sure as HELL didn't vote for any bushes.

        The Clothes have no Emperor.

        by 21stCenturyHippy on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:39:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  These are the ones (none)
        influenced by the popular TV show "Family Ties" where the young and very popular Michael Fox was the Reagan Republican.
      •  WTF? (4.00)
        I'm a GenXer (born 1971), my parents are baby boomers.  They voted republican until recently.  I wasn't able to vote until 1989.  My first presidential election I voted first for Jerry Brown in the primary and Clinton in the general.  And I know boatloads of my generation who did as well.  Remember Rock the Vote?  That was us.  We GenXers rocked the vote and rocked it pretty damn well for Clinton.
      •  Reagan Democrats (4.00)
        were blue collar, older Democrats like my father-in-law.  I wasn't old enough to vote until Bush Sr. ran and my first vote for Prez was for Jessie Jackson in the NY Primary.

        Also, from a strictly numbers game, once Gen Xers were old enough to vote, we are THE SMALLEST GENERATION!  Boomers, and now Millennials, far outnumber us.

        When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

        by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:06:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Lady (4.00)
        you really ought to work on this serious beef you seem to have with GenXers.

        And I'd love to see that crystal ball of yours that tells you what this new and improved generation will vote for or against.

        Last time I checked GenX was raised by the Boomers so whatever their supposed failings how about them taking some personal responsibility for their job as parents?

        Or were they still to busy finding and focusing on themselves like the rest of the "ME! ME! ME!" saviours of the planet to instill the upright values their generation was made of?

        Talk about revisionism.

        (Cross-posted in my pants)

        by Calishfornia on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:50:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank heavens I'm not alone!! (3.25)
          I thought it was just me who thought her distate for Gen Xers was a tad strong.

          BTW, I ALWAYS laugh when I read your sig line....I have a mental image that I probably shouldn't share!

          When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

          by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:59:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Funny (none)
        More boomer narcisism. Note how they elevate their equally useless and self-indulgent brats to messiahs?
    •  huh? (4.00)
      you said:  the empty shell of the hippies were the one that went on to vote for Reagan.

      me:  wuh?  proof?  maybe some went off the deep end and joined the fundementalist christians or such but EVERY 60's ex-hippy I have met stayed true to the liberals and most cheer on the modern "freedom fighters" if you know what I mean...

      you said:  I choose the underground.

      me:  who the fuck do you think MADE the underground and who do you think MAINTAINS the underground nationwide NOW... right now it is Widespread Panic tour that is... getting IT done.

      Jesus: "Destroy this Temple" - Gospel of John

      by The Gnostic on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:28:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  made the underground (none)
        I have no idea what you are asking me.

        The babyboomers ditched the hippie thing and went straight and greed is good in the 80s.

        Those that remained, are NOT the empty shell, as was claimed, they are the core, the actual culture.

        And really, it's more of a bohemian counter culture which goes way back but got a surge in the 60s and 70s... but a surge it was and the babyboomers voted for reagan in droves.

        it seems like you mistook my rants as anti-hippe, fuck no, if that's the case.  I have my analysis of this culture to offer but I'm pro-hippie, 100%, at least they have soul and values and really exist and are not just some power structure.

        •  This is true. (none)
          The hippies were just following the example of the Beats.  In fact some of the Beats, like Ginzberg were still active in the events of the '60s.
          •  the most important thing (none)
            this is a culture... it has roots throughout time.  Some of the people never acknowledged the supremecy of a bunch of roving criminal bandits that took taxes and called themselves Kings.  Some people always valued art over war.

            It's a culture.  It's members marry one another and raise children, have tradition, etc.  

            So many people have followed but also many fads occur, when this culture becomes popular for a while, like if Thai Food takes off, or Japanese Animation gets popular... for a while a large groups fancies themselves of this culture.

            When they realize no, they were just playin', they flake off the core... they do not leave an "empty shell"... as if this culture that lives on without them is nothing without them.

    •  Actually, my friends and I (none)
      referred to ourselves as the last of the beatniks.

      But even THAT was a joke.

      We were;

      Studying theater at NYU.

      Studying art at a number of places.

      Working on underground newspapers.

      Playing music. Practicing.

      Reading listening looking trying to survive trying not to get drafted trying to pay the rent.

      "Hippies"?

      Never.

      They were the ones cadging spare change over on the corner of St. Marks Place.

      Charles

      •  yeah yeah (none)
        thing is... this is a description of a culture with some shared values.

        not all agree, but they share the reference point.  there is a lot of natural medicine and spiritual healing, even though people go to doctors too.

        beatniks.  a bohemian culture.

        none of these is really much better than they other, they all are perspectives toward a culture, but caught from a perspective, again, of style, beatniks, then I think of beat poets, which IS the type of thing a head might do but then, not universally.

        So that's where I disagree with the idea that it's long gone, but there is a semantic difference here that accounts for a lot of that, you are talking about a label you never preferred.  I know many people that apply it laughingly to themselves, but also don't really adopt it, and so on.  But still, there is the shared reference.  I know conservative hippies, they live where the normal opinion opposes theirs, and some have liberal dogma worked into their conservative.   My point is just that it's diverse.  But there is a culture still, they are still raising kids.  It's not gone.  Smaller, it shed a temporary shell but still was bigger and more influential than it had been.  

  •  Well Charles (none)
    You make some good points, but your POV isn't the whole truth and nothing but the truth either. We all must deal with limited vision and partial truths. John Kerry did vote against aid to the Nicaraguan contras in the 1980s. Bill Bradley didn't and I'm not sure but think Al Gore didn't. Hell, they all played the game. It was well know that if you wanted to suceed in politics a stint in the military was great on the resume. All the people you mentioned made great contributions. I'm not sure about the average hippie. Some who shouted "Hell no we won't go" were anti-war as long as their ass was on the line, and after that wasn't a consideration they dived straight into materialism. Could Abbie Hoffman have been elected President? That is a very specialized game. But, in general, I am on your side. Millions must rise up again and say "Stop this war now!" Then we must reinvent and rejuvenate this society before it crumbles from greed, corruption, lack of cohesion, and poor leadership. The left must be as organized and as disciplined as the religous right in order to succeed. Cat herding anyone?
    •  your post (none)
      Hey synergy, I was one of those who said "Hell no, I won't go" while simultaneously covering my own ass. I would have to be presented with an extraordinarily compelling argument to fight, maybe like Commmie Rat North Koreans crossing my fenceline. or some guy bothering my wife at the grocery store. . If those two conditions were sufficiently met, well, I might hurt someone.  But, when it comes to ill-conceived government propoganda, and followup policy, well, I'll just have to decline the invitation.. You might be well-advised to show some restraint on the latter point yourself.
  •  The Thing That Only Eats Hippies (none)
    Wendel brought it to life in his guest room bath tub
    It was a special project for his 4-H club
    But it broke loose out in the middle of the night
    And now it's eatin' flower children left and right

    All the punks are gonna scream yippee
    'Cause it's the thing that only eats hippies

  •  You lapsed into a very ugly screed there.... (none)
    I was looking forward to a an enlightening defense of people who were called peaceniks...

    "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

    by Cathy on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:16:14 PM PDT

    •  only really commenting to you.. (none)
      ..because your comment was right above mine, but don't you think he has a right to say what he said?  and the peaceniks also stood up for themselves so how can you condemn him for that?  didn't we fight about something else one time?  Canadian right?

      Jesus: "Destroy this Temple" - Gospel of John

      by The Gnostic on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:20:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •   It's due, I suppose.... (4.00)
        somebody defending the "hippie peacnik" who has been kicked around for the last couple of days.  But, I'm more inclined to embrace SusanG's approach in the comments, itemize why the "hippie" shouldn't be ridiculed.

        Instead, ahem, "Charles" just lashes back as ugly and unproductive as the attacks on hippies.

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

        by Cathy on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:29:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It looks like I spoke to (and for) (none)
          the anger that a whole LOT of people have been feeling here.

          Sorry..."Can't we all just get along?" does not work for me when confronted with arrogant, blind ignorance.

          That's why I did what I did in the '60s.

          And in the '70s, the '80s, the '90s and now as well.

          Charles

          •  Anger (none)
            Are you one of the ones who spit on returning vetrans, and chanted about baby killers?

            Just wondering....

            •  Guess what? (none)
              None of us ARE.

              An untypical Negro...since 1954.

              by blksista on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 01:05:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Are you saying...... (none)
                that no-one called Vietnam vets baby killers?
                That no-one spit on them as they returned from Vietnam?

                Or that no-one here did those things?

                •  It is probably like flag burning. (none)
                   Given the level of outrage, one would think that flags were being burnt on every street corner. In reality it is a very rare occurance. I suspect it is the same with the spitting and babykiller accusations. It may have occured but not by anybody I knew in the movement. Vets I speak with will bring it up  and I ask them if it happened to them or if they witnessed it happening. To date, not one person has answered in the affirmative.
                  This accusation is primarily a red herring to distract from the real issue.

                  Don't Panic - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

                  by slatsg on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 08:30:40 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  None of us on this post is... (none)
                  I'm sure those episodes occurred.  But they were fewer times than you think.

                  They have been magnified over the years to encompass the entire anti-war movement.  And some of the spitting, etc., wasn't necessarily perpetrated by 'official' anti-war activists.

                  Unfortunately, some of those soldiers were baby-killers, just like some soldiers in Iraq have done some atrocities.  Vietnam changed many men of our generation, just like Iraq has changed the men of this generation.  James Wolcott, in one of his columns, spoke of the psychic and physical damage that has occurred to many Iraq War returnees, and it is not pretty.  Suicides, dangerous and reckless driving, domestic killings.

                  I think many of us want to spare our men further slides into the Dark Side and really, provide them with the health care and support that they need.

                  Native Americans have spoken of having to 'detoxify' their men from the experience of war through sweats, ceremonies and prayer until they are ready to go forth whole and healed after Vietnam and Gulf War I.  Too bad that many of our men have to face the real world without that kind psychic and spiritual support.

                  You'd do well to think and act about these things rather than ruminate on who spat on whom first.

                  An untypical Negro...since 1954.

                  by blksista on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 09:01:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Spitting on returning vetrans..... (none)
                    is intimately related to the Native American practices you described. It serves the opposite role, forcing vetrans to be estranged from the society they are attempting to reintegrate into, rather than welcomed into it.

                    You seem to have assumed I am just regurgitating right-wing talking points about "baby killer" chants, and spitting on vetrans. Actually, I have done a lot of reading on the psychology and sociology of war.

                    My point about the spitting is that I believe there are two poles to the "hippie movement." One of those poles has given rise to the "new age" movement.  The other pole has given rise to groups of angry hate-filled radicals. My point wasn't to blame all hippies for spitting on troops, but to point out that based on this discussion, some of the people here seem to fall into the angry hippie distinction.

                    For a discussion about the phenomenon of spitting on returning vetrans I suggest reading Homecoming by Bob Greene.  I haven't read it yet myself, but it was mentioned in On Killing - The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, pg 278.  To quote On Killing:

                    The phenomenon of returning soldiers being spit on deserves special attention here. Many Americans do not believe (or do not want to believe) that such evens ever occured.  Bob Greene, a syndicated newspaper columnist, was one of those who believed these accounts were probably a myth. Greene issued a request in his column for anyone who had actually experienced such an event to write in and tell of it. He recieved more than a thousand letters in response, collected in his book, Homecoming.

                    •  If he received more than a thousand responses.... (none)
                      then they're miniscule to the many anti-war activists and hippies who did not and were still angry.

                      They had a right to be angry.  As it was then as it is now, we were being lied to.  Our men and our country were being taken for a ride.

                      I read of several groups of anti-war activists who were poised at certain airports or stations to spit on soldiers.  They sure had a lot of saliva to expel.

                      This response is not to justify these acts, but again, you wanted to focus on the negative aspect of anti-war activism.

                      Forgiveness as well as taking responsibility for the kinds of dehumanizing acts committed in war is part of the Native American cleansing practices that I spoke of.  Apparently, you're still living in that past wanting to blame hippies or activists.  

                      We aren't.  We learned that the soldiers were not necessarily the enemy, merely the instruments, and were being used.  We learned that there were definitely class divisions between us that also blinded us to why opposing war was just as valuable and responsible as fighting in it.  And so forth.

                      Your parents didn't become hippies or hated/distrusted hippies.  Fair enough.  We found value in our beliefs just as they did theirs.

                      An untypical Negro...since 1954.

                      by blksista on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:18:49 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  I think "spitting on vets" is a myth (none)
                  I was involved in antiwar protests then. I don't recall any contemporary reports of this. Given the hyper politicized nature of that time, any such incidents then ought to have been highly publicized.

                  Jerry Lembcke published a book recently on this very topic. From an interview with him:

                  "If you go back and look at the historical record, like I did - newspaper accounts, police records, and also just things historians have written," Lembcke told this reporter, "you don't find any record or any evidence that these things happened - or even that they were being claimed as happening - in the late '60s and early '70s." A number of other scholars cited by Lembcke have also combed contemporary records in vain. Not so much as a letter penned by a GI writing home at the time has turned up that describes being spat on, he says.

                  What the researchers did find, however, were numerous contemporary accounts of anti-war protesters being spat on and labeled "traitors," "cowards" or "commies" by pro-war demonstrators.

                  This seems entirely true to me.

            •  Not me. (none)
              As a matter of fact (long story) my OWN awakening as to what was really up there happened at about 20 years of age, and it was a bunch of black soldiers on R+R who hipped me.

              Charles

        •  I consider this all (none)
          an attack on my culture.

          so, expect attack back.

          in fact, fuck the Democrats.

          a waste of time, that's my feeling tonight.

          screw it... you are going to call my activist friends names... you are going to tell the ugly truth about their fashion sense.

          right.

          that. is. conservativism.

          and anyone that doesn't like it... can build a bridge, I'm not crossing this burning one.

      •  Oh, the last part of question.... (none)
        Me and you fight here about something, like Canadian right?  No.  I remember any tussles I'm involved in.  They are rare.  I speak my mind but I don't come here to fight.

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

        by Cathy on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:31:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  thank you for your diary! (none)
    wasn't there one yesterday that got recommended that used hippies as a prop?  how'd that happen?

    what if gays or women got used as props? why don't the people that that fought off the fascists get the same respect as other groups that fought their way out of a hole for the betterment of all Americans?  

    must be the drug thing (they're after your KIDS after all right?)... just throw the druggies in jail, let em get raped by the repub skinheads or the paid paramilitary gangsters? that'll teach em.

    did liberalism veer off course?  did it take a hard right turn or have the DLCers caused mass confusion?

    Jesus: "Destroy this Temple" - Gospel of John

    by The Gnostic on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:18:45 PM PDT

  •  fucking A man.... (4.00)
    this democrat chickenhawk shit is getting tired.  it's easy for people to say they "understand" war when the haven't killed anybody and suffered its destructiveness during and long after the war is over.  Funny how some people say that because they were in the military, they "understand" war and are willing to do the whole macho bullshit posturing of "war is sometimes necessary" nonsense.

    war is bullshit and anyone that says otherwise has their head up their ass.  

    war, it's so 20th century.

    •  Fucking a X 2 (4.00)
      I agree.

      I thought that "hippie" label that Kos came out with was uncalled for as soon as I read his Diary the other day.

      And all it is macho bulllshit posturing off of Military Service, War can be necessary in rare occasions.

      Kos has already pissed off a number of the women he shouldn't piss off any more of the people that are allied behind the same causes that he is, if he wants to reach the political conclusions that he/we are fighting for.

  •  No hippie-bashing here (4.00)
    Abbie Hoffman's Revolution for the Hell of It was my Cat in the Hat.  Phil Ochs was my Raffi.  
  •  rock and roll (4.00)
    Kos didn't grow up here, so I excuse him.  Somewhat.  Since he didn't grow up here, however, I've not idea where he even has an opinion on the hippies, but that's a different matter...

    As for Kerry ending the war, please.  Charles got it  right, and tons other in this thread.  It wasn't just the hippies, or anyone else, but there was something in the air back then, and it was rock'n'roll and Bob Dylan.

    I grew up in California, born 1970, hearing all the old songs about people living together and not dying over in Vietnam, or any damn elite-driven war (projection).  Bob Dylan, The Beatles, Jimi, The Doors, Neil Young, Crosby Still and Nash, the list goes on.

    If anything, even though most people don't outright admit it, in California hippies are part of a heroic storyline.  Hippies and rock'n'roll.  And I've met people who've grown up elsewhere, in Ohio, in Minnesota, in North Carolina, who grew up listening to the same stuff.

    Because of this direct link to the radio and rock'n'roll, a lot of the legacy of the elite deviant and criminal years of Vietnam have not been forgotten.  If anything, you can't escape it growing up, though in the future that may not be the case if we allow too much media consolidation.

    Also because of this rock'n'roll hippie legacy, the role of other forces, like the Black Panthers and Muhammed Ali, can get shortchanged unless you really study the history and talk to people.  Even the central and pivotal role of Bob Dylan, on not only hippies but everyday Americans and rock stars, can't really be understood without getting oral histories from people who lived the times.

    One lesson that Kos or those who think Kerry ended the war may not have learned, since not having grown up here, and not being bred with a historically unique American popular culture skepticism of power, is that folks in power can't be relied on to change disastrous policies.

    For whatever reason, their reputations, testes comparisons, or reelection accounts primarily filled by Big Business, neither political party or its leaders can be trusted to end a war, or to change a disastrous course in what they would consider a radical fashion.

    That job is to the American people, to the grassroots, and it happened with Vietnam despite the Democratic and Republican party establishments, and wonks.

    Hippies, and everyday people, end wars, not wonks, and not politicians feeding on big money contributions from those profiting from wars, posturing for wars, because they say NO!

    The politicians work for us, in this great country, and I don't blame a single hippie for rejecting the Victorian warstate guilt and projections that were being pushed on them, and I will be eternally grateful for the result - classic rock'n'roll.

    free the information

    by freelixir on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:26:12 PM PDT

  •  Sigh (4.00)
    Please don't put words in our mouths.  I don't see anyone on this thread saying "respect your elders." And hippies did not say "Don't trust anybody over thirty."  The media said we said that. We liked a lot of people over 30(Kurt Vonnegut, Joseph Heller, Burroughs, Ginsburg, the Beats, Hemingway, Gertrude Stein, Eugene McCarthy, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Jr.-- I could go on and on.)  We also didn't like a lot of people over thirty. Some of our parents were cool, some were not. And not all youth of the time were part of the youth movement (check out George Bush). We respected the labor leaders and civil rights leaders and activists that came out of the Great Depression.  We did not respect the Fascists and the Hitlers of the time.  This has nothing to do with how old you are.  We are talking about telling the truth about a movement that is now part of history and not distorting what it was.  Please spare us the simplistic stuff and use the brain I know you have instead of spouting media bullshit without checking it out.
  •  Don't forget (none)
    the Berrigan brothers.
  •  Can someone post a link to (none)
    Arlo Guthries "Alices Restaurant". The long version pretty well sums it up.
  •  saved me a diary (none)
    exactly.

    and "hippie" is maybe a generational thing, but I know who they are trying to talk about.

    and that "hippie" thing of giving a flower and all that hype, that was never more than just a fad within... as if everyone had that attitude.

    no, it's just like all bigoted thinking, people have a few little puppets in THEIR head made of sterotype (stereofoam) and then they give a little puppet show and say "see"?

    but I didn't live through it, so when I studied the anti-war movement, before Kerry running for election, HE DID NOT COME UP.  I knew and know far more about the people mentioned in this diary.

    •  Somebody watched "Silver Streak" (none)
      with Scatman Crothers moaning, "Damn hippies!" between Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder cutting up, and got an idea for a diary.

      Only thing is, by 1978, the hippies were long gone from public scrutiny.

      Which just goes to prove that when something goes wrong...blame those who refused go along with the program in the first place.

      An untypical Negro...since 1954.

      by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:23:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Another Mother For Peace (4.00)
    I,m 54. My first husband refused induction in 1967. We always expected that he would be arrested. My second husband served as a Marine in Vietnam for 18 months in 1968-69. My son was in the Marine Corp for 6 years 1994-2000. I tell you this because I want you to know that I have thought alot about war & the military.

    Have you'all noticed that a lot of the anti-war protesters are middle-aged mothers? I don't know what to say about that other than "Don't mess with mothers! They can be vicious when protecting their young!"

  •  Man (4.00)
    it reeks of patchouli in this diary.  

    Who's got the joint?

    Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

    by johnny rotten on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 07:59:45 PM PDT

  •  Then and now (4.00)
    1972 about 2 years after I got out of the army. When I got out I didn't cut my hair or shave for a long time. During the summer of love I was in basic training. Bad career move!

    March 2003

    Still don't shave and get my hair cut about every 3-4 years.
    "I feel like I owe it to someone."

    I prefer "left over hippie".
    Keep the faith.

    Flags don't kill people, governments do.
    Take back the flag, take back the government.

    by BOHICA on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:02:37 PM PDT

  •  Nope. (none)
    Funny. Last November I had a long talk with someone who was DEEPLY involved in the anti-war movement in the 60's and early 70's, and who I also knew as currently only lukewarm to Kerry - really preferred Kucinich.  You dispute the claim:

    "During the Vietnam War, John Kerry had far more impact in swaying people that the Vietnam War was wrong and we needed to get out ASAP than "hippies" even within the same Veterans Against the War group did."

    But while those are not the exact words, they are very close to what this activist - who most certainly WAS there - told me. I remember our conversation quite clearly, because it influenced me a lot in my post-election thinking about Kerry.

    And the person who told me this wasn't a "blind Kerry worshipper", it was someone who recognized the value Kerry brought to the anti-war movement by being clean-shaven, well-spoken, and presentable.

    I guess it's like everything else, the "facts" depend on what prism you are viewing them through.

    FWIW, it's bullshit to denigrate "hippies" or anyone else for how they choose to protest. But it's also bullshit to close your eyes (mind?) to the real need to appeal to certain people in certain ways, and that it's good to have people who can market the message, and maybe sometimes keep the scarier potential messengers in the background instead of out front.

  •  I was there too (none)
    and Charles is right on.

    Thanks for the diary, it really needed to be said!

  •  YOU ARE SO RIGHT! (none)
    THE MORE THINGS CHANGE, THE MORE THEY STAY THE SAME...
  •  Liberal was a bad word then. (4.00)
    To be said with disgust. Liberal was equated with cowardly, morally empty people.

    Until Gene McCarthy came along.

    I had a poster from the time I worked for Gene in the Indiana primary. The caption said:

    "One man stood up alone
    ...and something happened."

    Kinda reminds me of Cindy. Just change 'man' to 'woman'.

    ------- 1776 called. They want their country back.

    by EdlinUser on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:10:44 PM PDT

  •  You got it. (4.00)
    Dylan. Tom Hayden. Malcolm X. Abbie Hoffman. Muhammad Ali. Joan Baez. John Lennon. Paul Krassner. Jimmy Breslin., Norman Mailer. William Burroughs. Underground newspapers by the hundreds.  A thousand THOUSAND freaks of all varieties saying "HELL no. We won't go.!!!" All OVER the media. All OVER the minds of the people. All over the DEMOCRATS, eventually.

    I was there. This is what I remember. Kerry who?

    I'ts too wet to work. Let's buy a DVD.

    by emmasnacker on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:11:20 PM PDT

    •  media (4.00)
      by the time Kerry came onto the scene, I hadn't read the MSM for years. Lived a decade off-grid, no TV, radio, any of that shit. So Kerry never entered my consciousness. Seeing those pictures of him, so young (was I that young?) now made me really feel for him, wanted to believe in him for the election, but he had grown into too much of an insider.  Lost the passion.

      Gotta say I really appreciate the outpourings of good feelings and respect for us 60s veterans that are being expressed by people too young to have been there.  It's good also to hear from those who were there  in the 60s and have them stand up proud to have made that happen, all of us. All of us are called upon to enter the crucible, now, to be here and stand up in these extraordinary times.  You are blessed with life in "interesting times"; seize these moments, for they will stay with you forever.  We old timers get to do this for the second time, and maybe, if we all get it right, we'll help you get it right this time.

      don't always believe what you think...

      by claude on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:40:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yep (none)
        Kerry was never on my radar.  

        And I still dont have running water, but got on the grid to supplement the solar about 5 years ago.  Got a phone a year later.  

      •  yes! (none)
        All of us are called upon to enter the crucible, now, to be here and stand up in these extraordinary times.  You are blessed with life in "interesting times"; seize these moments, for they will stay with you forever.  We old timers get to do this for the second time, and maybe, if we all get it right, we'll help you get it right this time.

        As an old hippie, I had hoped to fade away peacefully, off the grid, growing the garden, and enjoying the peace that comes with understanding.

        But working with youth, as I do, it's into the crucible 4 days a week, and spend a lot of time opening eyes to the "interesting times". The hard work is that these kids are so very oblivious to what their future looks like. They are incredibly ignorant. Far too many are not interested in what is going on in the country or the world.

        I never wanted to live in "interesting times" again, after going through the 60s and early 70s.  
        But we don't get to chose, do we? Do or die, and I find I'm not ready for the latter.

        I'ts too wet to work. Let's buy a DVD.

        by emmasnacker on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 08:10:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Here's a question (none)
    that I'll probably turn into a diary with a poll option...

    ... but how many people here actually protested the Iraq war?  Protested a Bush rally?  A Cheney rally?  Organized a protest?

    In other words, do you put your money where your mouth is?

    I'm just curious.

      •  Cool (4.00)
        I assume that most people here actually did protest at least one war.

        As an aside, I just bought two copies of Berkeley in the Sixties, one for me, and one for my dad, because he was there, and politically active (until he went to India for a year, as part of his PhD field work).

        I highly recommend that documentary for everyone on this thread.  It is absolutely amazing.

        Parts of it made me cry, actually, especially seeing signs that said "Bring the troops home now!"

        It's a very emotional documentary.

        •  Tell me more (none)
          What about the documentary got to you?

          That it seemed we fought this fight forty years ago and here we are doing it again? The idealism of those times (it gets me weepy, that does)?

          I'm really curious on your take.

          •  What you said (none)
            Exactly what you said.  That we're doing it again, that the idealism is gone, that people were actually effecting change then, and we aren't now (not any fault of our own, we just aren't - it seems like we can't).

            And I was also sort of choked up in a happy way, because it made me understand my dad even better.  We're very close, but he loves that film because he really was right there.  He said he recognized some of the rallies, remembers participating, etc.

            He saw Joan Baez lead a protest.  In fact, he heard her play to rallies at Berkeley several times.

            Also, my parents met at Berkeley in 1965, which has always made me smile.

            •  All I can say is ... (4.00)
              Page, it's starting to feel a bit like it again. Seriously. There is a sense, it seems, of waking up, of shaking out of a nightmare, of people "getting it."

              It feels like a preamble to me.

              People I've always considered pretty apolitical are talking about it now, are disgusted by it now.

              I think it's partly to do with Sheehan, honestly. And I think it was important that a non-politician be the one who makes the stand.

              Of course, it's a matter of other events as well ... Sheehan had actually been talking for a year and no one paid attention, so it was clearly a matter of her, combined with other things -- rising casualties, the crappy Islamic republic emerging from this.

              If we learn one thing from the 1960's, I hope it's this: When we succeed in stopping this war (and we will), we need to keep the pressure on, the political pressure on, to make sure we don't slip back into what I think of as our Dark Ages. THAT was the biggest mistake ... thinking reason and human dignity had won the day, once and for all, for a just society. We can't slack off again.

              •  stake in the heart (4.00)
                Yes, Susan, we didn't drive the stake through it's heart, and it came back to life.

                OTOH, I have always felt that all that nookie that we got and they didn't has inspired two generations of "right-to-lifers" to try to drive sex back underground. Despite all the wailing about dead babies, it's always been about punishment for free love.

                don't always believe what you think...

                by claude on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:22:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  'The more things change . . . ' (none)
          Never in my wildest dreams did I think we'd ever approach the Vietnam era again in my lifetime.

          When I was born the Vietnam War had already started.  A major chunk of my childhood - it was always there.

          Every night on TV, I'm sure it was Cronkite, and that black-and-white footage of jungle warfare.

          Upthread I said that as a kid I thought I would turn 18, be drafted, and die over there. Thank God ( for me - there are 58,000 who weren't so lucky ) that it ended long before I turned 18.

          •  I remember ... (none)
            when I was 11 (1969), my dad coming out and telling me when I was in a swimming pool at night that the war was over. (This was one of those numerous times when the Paris Peace Talks would get underway and then it would all fall apart because they couldn't agree whether the table should be round or not.)

            And that night, for the first time, I realized the Vietnam War had been going on my whole conscious life. I had never had a year of my sentient life when there had not been casualty counts on TV, battles blasted into my living room, grownups all around me constantly bickering about it.

            Of course, even in 1969, it was false ... we weren't pulling out, not by a long shot.

            But I always consider that moment my first real political awakening, that I realized I'd grown up with the white noise of the war through my whole childhood. (And that my father had quit his job in PR at Lockheed because he couldn't take being even remotely a part of it.)

        •  Berekeley in the 60s (none)
          "I highly recommend that documentary for everyone on this thread.  It is absolutely amazing."

          Couldn't agree more.   Wonderful doc.

          I was a toddler for most of the 60s, living with a very conservative blue-collar family.  But I remember being fascinated and attracted to the political movements of the time thanks to the mostly-very-conservative LIFE Magazine.   The images were just too vital to ignore.  And BERKELEY IN THE SIXTIES brought a lot of that back

      •  Same here, toots... (none)
        n/t

        An untypical Negro...since 1954.

        by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:50:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I did (none)
        Gulf war I and II ... from the beginning... during the "rush to war."  And had to drive five hours to do it.  Almost ever weekend.
    •  Yup (none)
      I was at the first Bush II anti-war rally, against going into Afghanistan, in Washington in spring 2002.  I have been to numerous anti-war rallies about Iraq, before and after the war started.  I have written numerous letters against going into Iraq to my senators and congressional leaders. I have been a witness to the powerful anti-war testament Eyes Wide Open.  I have attended marriage equality rallies.  And just a week or so ago, I was at one of the America Stands With Cindy rallies.  I'm sure there are a lot of us in this thread who can say the same.
    •  Right here (none)
      Late Gen-Xer, and I froze my ass off in 2003. It felt great. More people should've put down the remote and joined all the different people on the street.

      (I don't think that my being brought to anti-Vietnam War rallies as a small boy by my vet dad and WWII refugee mother counts as independent action on my part.)

      I became a Democrat because of George Bush and Howard Dean.

    •  Real West (none)
      My husband is half of an anti-Folk duo (click on the link at the bottom to hear some of their music)  They played at multiple anti-war rallies in the fall of 2002.  Organized an anti-inaugural protest concert.  Organized another protest concert on the anniversary of the invasion this March.  Most of the time, I'm home with the rugrats when he's playing; it's hard chasing two and five year old sons around at these kind of events (and there's always the risk of tear gas or arrest)...I guess the "hippies" were better at managing their kids at war protests than me!

      But I can't even count the marches and vigils I've attended over the years, whether it was in solidarity with the people of El Salvador, the ACT UP protest outside the Waldorf-Astoria when Bush Sr. was there as president, the 1989 Pro-choice march on Washington when there were a million people in the street....

      Yeah, you know, we Gen Xers, we're Reagan Youth Slackers who get all our information from MTV....

      When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

      by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:52:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Count me (none)
      Protested Iraq (actually, I worked very diligently to stop the procession toward war.  Wrote many LTEs, petitioned, met with my congressman and spoke before him for about 15 minutes, as well as presented him with a 15 page document on why NOT to go to war and the alternatives, and was on the nightly news).

      I walk the talk.

      Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

      by bronte17 on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:57:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Prewar protest in red, Republican, military (none)
      Pensacola, Florida, my hometown. Corner of Palafox and Garden Streets in front of the federal courthouse with about 200 other folks. Got a lot of honks and waves, and few fingers.
      So glad I did it. This war is bullshit now, and it was bullshit before it started.
    •  In 03 and again last spring (none)
      I lived in a tent for a month with about 20-30 like minded people, and a lot of supporters. I spend 3-4 hours a week fliering, I organize meetings for our student power group, I got elected to student government, and helped get a radical candidate elected to the board of trustees.  Last tuesday, I turned 21. Oh, I haven't cut my hair in 4 years, or shaved in 2.  

      No Class but Class WAR!

      by bzbb on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:46:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I protested both Bush wars. (none)
      Inspections Work, War Won't, as someone said. . .and  the inspections I talk about are backed up with gun barrels & assorted military might.

      There are ways that bring peace to the world--that preserve the environment--and are not naive in the least, unlike neocons and other greedy predators. . .

      And we have to pitch in every day to make better days come true.

      Just preachin' to the choir. . .

    •  list (none)
      Vietnam, Cambodia, East Timor, Contra war, Apartheid, Grenada, Libya bombing, Panama, Iraq I, Serbia, Afghanistan Iraq II. And thru them all, the DrugWar. Did I forget any?

      My solo sign on the State capitol grounds was the 1st anti-war response too hit the AP wire. "War is still dumb."

      No-one who voted against the USAPATRIOT Act has lost an election. I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State. Or Yours.

      by ben masel on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:00:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I did (none)
      I helped organize protests in my town prior to going into Iraq, a few shortly after entering Iraq, and am organizing a peace rally on 9/24 to coincide with the big rallies for DC, SF, and elsewhere.  I have also helped organized passing out literature to high school kids that explains to them how they can get their name off the list of names schools give military recruiters due to the NCLB Act.  I also participated in a Death Tableau as a memorial to those Iraq civilians killed in Iraq.  I do this on top of my activities on campaigns and on behalf of the Democratic Party.
    •  I did, went to NY before the war (from Indiana!) (none)
  •  We need Hippies Today (4.00)
    I was young during the hippie generation, but I remember it vividly. And the "hippies" I knew were the most caring and smartest people I have ever known.

    I don't know why hippies are getting a bad rap around here. It was a movement that had never really been seen before. I miss it. I miss the noise, the energy, the commitment. Now we get a few people speaking out and it gets buried... sad times, if you ask me.

    I wish to hell every day that this generation would take up where the hippie generation left off, because the point was -- they cared. They got off their asses and cared. I can only guess that if the draft is re-instated, they'll stop playing video games and actually stand up and speak out. And maybe even bother to find out the truth about the people they vote for.

    That's the part of the hippie generation I miss. The willingness to get active. I understand the point which is being raised that if we embrace the kind of counterculture feel of the hippie generation, it harms us -- merely because for whatever reasons, the revisionists have won, by making the hippies of that time now seem so wrong and shallow and near-sighted. It is easy to make them out to be draft-dodgers, and that even amazes me now when we know what we know about Vietnam. And now, suddenly, history tells us the hippies made no impact at all.

    But look at what they really did -- they defined an entire generation -- including me. How can those of us that grew up then ignore what goes on now? We can't ignore it. It's in our very being. We cried when we saw those pictures of Kent State, when Bobby was shot in that kitchen, when news reached us that Martin was dead. We felt that pain, it is part of who we are.

    So one gets the feeling that the middle-aged mothers leading the charge now are those that experienced that pain, and remember what it is like to stand up for what you believe in. If only the generations after the hippie generation had half that kind of commitment to their country. They seem defined by selfishness.

    I believe there is not one/tenth of the action that should be taking place against this corrupt and immoral Administration. Its really quite appalling, and unless people start waking up and actually embracing what the hippie generation stood for, I'm afraid we don't have a chance.

    You don't have to have long hair, sing, and wish for no war at all. Some wars are necessary. That is not even important to the point -- the point is, at least the hippies stood up and demanded to be heard. Where are the young people today? WHERE ARE THEY???

    Oh, and about the Kerry comments -- this diariest says he doesn't remember Kerry, but the pro-war mongers of the time sure did. They swift boated him out of sheer revenge. So I guess he wasn't a total non-entity.

    "Getting on with my life means a life without my dear, sweet boy. I wish a little bike ride could help me get on with my life." Cindy Sheehan

    by Dunbar on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:24:03 PM PDT

  •  Visions! omens! hallucinations! (none)
    miracles! ecstasies! gone doen the American river!

    Dreams! adorations! illuminations! religions! the whole boatload of sensitive bullshit!

    Breakthroughts!  over the river! flips and crucifixions! gone doen the flood! Highs! Epiphanies! Despairs! Ten years' animal screams and suicides! Minds! New loves! Mad generation! down on the rocks of Time!

    Real holy laughter in the river! They saw it all! the wild eyes! the holy yells! They bade farewell! They jumped off the roof! to solitude! waving! carrying flowers! Down to the river! into the street!

    •  venus cried... (none)
      ... and mars laughed
      as the street
      turned to river again.
      jupiter was lost
      then neptune sinned.
      Mother earth left
      on the last bus to kent state.

      A failed President= August 6 PDB, Bin Laden? DSM, WMD's? Abu Ghraib, Rove/Plame

      by Gator on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:32:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Arlo Guthrie (4.00)
    Forgive me for posting too much but this is EXACTLY how I remember it. This is the way it was, only those of that age can appreciate it. I'm damn glad my son hasn't had the reason to relate to this feeling. Nothing heroic, nothing political, it was just life for all of us that age.

    (From Alices Resturant) Getting his army physical

    They got a building down New York City, it's called Whitehall Street,
    where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected,
    neglected and selected.  I went down to get my physical examination one
    day, and I walked in, I sat down, got good and drunk the night before, so
    I looked and felt my best when I went in that morning.  `Cause I wanted to
    look like the all-American kid from New York City, man I wanted, I wanted
    to feel like the all-, I wanted to be the all American kid from New York,
    and I walked in, sat down, I was hung down, brung down, hung up, and all
    kinds o' mean nasty ugly things. And I waked in and sat down and they gave
    me a piece of paper, said, "Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room 604."

    And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill.  I mean, I wanna, I
    wanna kill.  Kill.  I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and
    guts and veins in my teeth.  Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,
    KILL, KILL."  And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and
    he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down
    yelling, "KILL, KILL."  And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,
    sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

    Didn't feel too good about it.

    Proceeded on down the hall gettin more injections, inspections,
    detections, neglections and all kinds of stuff that they was doin' to me
    at the thing there, and I was there for two hours, three hours, four
    hours, I was there for a long time going through all kinds of mean nasty
    ugly things and I was just having a tough time there, and they was
    inspecting, injecting every single part of me, and they was leaving no
    part untouched.  Proceeded through, and when I finally came to the see the
    last man, I walked in, walked in sat down after a whole big thing there,
    and I walked up and said, "What do you want?"  He said, "Kid, we only got
    one question. Have you ever been arrested?"

    And I proceeded to tell him the story of the Alice's Restaurant Massacre,
    with full orchestration and five part harmony and stuff like that and all
    the phenome... - and he stopped me right there and said, "Kid, did you ever
    go to court?"

    And I proceeded to tell him the story of the twenty seven eight-by-ten
    colour glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and the paragraph on
    the back of each one, and he stopped me right there and said, "Kid, I want
    you to go and sit down on that bench that says Group W .... NOW kid!!"

    And I, I walked over to the, to the bench there, and there is, Group W's
    where they put you if you may not be moral enough to join the army after
    committing your special crime, and there was all kinds of mean nasty ugly
    looking people on the bench there.  Mother rapers.  Father stabbers.  Father
    rapers!  Father rapers sitting right there on the bench next to me!  And
    they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys sitting on the
    bench next to me. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest
    father raper of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly
    'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me
    and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?"  I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to pay
    $50 and pick up the garbage."  He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?"
    And I said, "Littering."  And they all moved away from me on the bench
    there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I
    said, "And creating a nuisance."  And they all came back, shook my hand,
    and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing,
    father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the
    bench.  And everything was fine, we was smoking cigarettes and all kinds of
    things, until the Sargeant came over, had some paper in his hand, held it
    up and said.

    "Kids, this-piece-of-paper's-got-47-words-37-sentences-58-words-we-wanna-
    know-details-of-the-crime-time-of-the-crime-and-any-other-kind-of-thing-
    you-gotta-say-pertaining-to-and-about-the-crime-I-want-to-know-arresting-
    officer's-name-and-any-other-kind-of-thing-you-gotta-say", and talked for
    forty-five minutes and nobody understood a word that he said, but we had
    fun filling out the forms and playing with the pencils on the bench there,
    and I filled out the massacre with the four part harmony, and wrote it
    down there, just like it was, and everything was fine and I put down the
    pencil, and I turned over the piece of paper, and there, there on the
    other side, in the middle of the other side, away from everything else on
    the other side, in parentheses, capital letters, quotated, read the
    following words:

    ("KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?")

    I went over to the sargent, said, "Sargeant, you got a lot a damn gall to
    ask me if I've rehabilitated myself, I mean, I mean, I mean that just, I'm
    sittin' here on the bench, I mean I'm sittin here on the Group W bench
    'cause you want to know if I'm moral enough join the army, burn women,
    kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug."  He looked at me and
    said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send you fingerprints
    off to Washington."

    And friends, somewhere in Washington enshrined in some little folder, is a
    study in black and white of my fingerprints.

    •  I just saw (none)
      the Alice's Restaurant movie last week, I think it was. Arlo was so cute, but I digress.  ;)

      There was a scene in the movie where he goes to the hospital to see his father, who was dying of Huntington's Chorea.  When Arlo shows up, Pete Seeger is there playing his guitar and singing for Woody.  It reminded me that Woody and Pete's generation had forged the way for Arlo's generation.  They were respected for their efforts and the changes they helped bring about.  It was subtly inspiring.  I can't post pictures, 'cause, well, 'cause I don't know how, but the picture here is a keeper.

      On another note, I've always loved Hair.  

      Just because a person has faith doesn't mean that he isn't full of crap.-- Pastordan

      by Maggie Mae on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:13:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bob Dylan (none)
        visited Woody on his deathbed.
        •  I'm confused. Do you mean (none)
          in addition to Pete Seeger or that the movie portrayed it incorrectly?  

          I would guess alot of musicians who admired and thought of him as in inspiration visited Woody while he was dying.  He influenced so many musicians of his own and following generations.  He was special.

          Just because a person has faith doesn't mean that he isn't full of crap.-- Pastordan

          by Maggie Mae on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 09:45:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I didn't mean anything about the (none)
            movie.  Just noting that Dylan's roots were in the folk tradition of Woody Guthrie and that Dylan made that pilgrimage to Woody's hospital bedside.  Dylan was younger than Pete Seeger of course.  I wasn't trying to make a point--just a comment.
            •  Oh, okay (none)
              I'm just a little slow today.  LOL.  I thought maybe I had gotten it wrong.  Thanks for clarifying.  Have a good rest of the day!

              Just because a person has faith doesn't mean that he isn't full of crap.-- Pastordan

              by Maggie Mae on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:25:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Not to make anyone feel old, (4.00)
    or young, for that matter. But I was three during the convention. I remember sitting in front of the tv while Phil Donohue was showing footage of men in black uniforms hitting peace-sign wearing jesus look-alikes over the head with clubs.

    Gee. I wonder why I have a mistrust of authority figures and  and a soft spot for idealistic youth.

    My friend just broke up with his girlfriend, so we drank 40s and watched the Discovery Channel. --AnthonySF

    by The Gryffin on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:31:24 PM PDT

  •  agreed (none)
    i remember reading about winter soldier later, but don't remember kerry at all. i sure as hell don't remember his congressional testimony - seeing it all these years later, i probably would have questioned his strategy. of course, i disagreed with the "clean for gene" activists that were trying to go mainstream in 1968 too.

    all my local vvaw people were wild and wooly - they were mostly infantry, not swift boat, though. that jungle does things to you. some of them are still out in the woods, looking for the black helicopters. don't laugh, it's sad.

  •  In 1969 (4.00)
    I was only 10.  But I remember, Bro.  10 is VERY impresionable.  Especially when your big brother was in Da Nang the year before.  If I had hair left, I'd grow it long, and chant at the rallies "Hell no.  My son won't go!"  Right on, Charles.

    9/11 was the Neocons' Reichstag fire. "Patriot Act" = Enabling Act.

    by Bulldawg on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:36:25 PM PDT

    •  Hippies were moving into the Haight... (none)
      ...as early as 1962.

      Haight-Fillmore was the black part of town then, and about to be the only thing left standing after the city fathers tore up the Fillmore District under the rubric of Redevelopment, which actually meant 'get rid of the n-gg-s, even if they own property there.'

      My mother and I saw them.  And no, they were not beatniks from North Beach.  They had a different look about them and they were tres different.  The light shows were only a few more months away...

      An untypical Negro...since 1954.

      by blksista on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:55:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for this diary, Charles (4.00)
    It's giving me "flashbacks".  I grew up in Boulder, which was hippie Mecca.  I think you can still find a few there, hanging around the downtown mall.  

    From what I remember, there were many different subgroups that are all now lumped together as "hippie".  There were the flower children, the Jesus freaks, the druggie "mind expanding types, the civil rights and women's lib people, the environmental-communal living types, the folk-music hobos, and the anti-war activists (I've probably left out a few).   Many "hippies" belonged to several sub-groups, but some stuck to one particular area (some of the druggies were just druggies and could care less about being anti-war for example).

    Some amazing things happened during those years - Nixon was impeached, the Vietnam War was ended, we landed on the moon, and it seemed like women and minorities were getting more rights...I mean I guess we thought we won and the future was going to be better.  We had Star Trek and 2001 - A Space Odyssey to look forward to.   I'm not sure what happened - I guess we got complacent and forgot to keep an eye on the government.

    Now we find history repeating itself, with many of the same ideas, but different names- Communism is now Terrorism, the Warsaw Pact is now the Axis of Evil, and Bush and crew seem to be headed down Nixon's path.  With a Republican House and Senate it might be harder to impeach Bush, but he still has three years, and I believe he is already faltering worse than Nixon ever did.   I just hope he doesn't get off free - leaving us to clean up the mess from this train-wreck he's caused.

    Ok, I'll go back to my Janis Joplin and Led Zepplin now.  

  •  We will do it again (4.00)
    In spite of my time in Vietnam and coming home crazy as a loon in 69, I would take that time over this time. There was something in the air and it really came down to individual freedom. There was a magic then that unless you were there I do not think you would understand. Call us hippies or whatever we had a feeling that we were going to change the world. These jerks in charge are the antithesis of what was happening them. To wake up 30 years later to Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh and Bushco is something I never thought I would see again. The fact is these people are much worse than the ones in our time. People in my family call me the old Hippie. I wear it as a badge of honor. It means that you have a dream that people can be who they are and we can build a place where all of us can be a part of something that is greater than any one person. Yes, Kos, it is called visualizing peace. We did it before and we will do it again. In fact, I doubt anyone can stop us.  

    Change 10% of the electorate and we will have a landslide and a mandate.

    by Jlukes on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:45:48 PM PDT

    •  if you ask me, (none)
      the reason we have Bush and his hatefilled groupies like Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly et al. is because of what the hippies, the feminists and the civil rights advocates did in the '60s and '70s.  They're the second wave of conservatives that came along after all the social changes that were accomplished.  They feel weak and threatened by these changes and so their rhetoric is even more overbearing and angry than it was before.  They're cornered animals and very dangerous.  But the bright side is that they ARE afraid.

      We may think of this as the triumph of the evil empire, but it may be their last gasp.  If we can manage to stick around for a few years, we may be fortunate enough to see these creatures slide into obscurity.

      *Springsteen for President*

      by hrh on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:03:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you could be right but also (none)
        the people who own corporations need to win elections. The only way to do that was to hit the resentment button of everyday people. Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly and the Christian Right are the hired hacks to do that single job. When Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act and lost the south they saw what appealing to people's prejudices could do. They have now made a science of it. That combined with marketing genius gives us what we have today.  It is an age old fight. Many of us are now awakening to what is happening. We are on the side of the angels but we have to get out and fight the good fight. Gandhi, Mandela have shown us that you have to stand up and be counted but that if you stick it out you can win.

        Change 10% of the electorate and we will have a landslide and a mandate.

        by Jlukes on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:17:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Expansiveness was (4.00)
      one of the things that was in the air.  It was a period broke down and smashed the barriers that held back our parents and grandparents (either from the fear and memory of the depression or there is only so much change that each generation can handle).  After WWII, this country closed in on itself -- became bland, boring and fearful.  We were reaching for the New Frontier.

      Nixon, as dreadful as he was, administration was domestically more progressive than Clinton.  That was not only because Democrats ran Congress (a lot of them were DINOs) but also because the country was in a progressive period.  Reagan as Governor of CA signed abortion legislation before Roe.

      The arts exploded.  And within a few years, straightlaced America had adopted (co-opted?) almost all that started with the youth of that time.  Where are the arts today?  Mostly derivative, and the arts usually tell us where were going.  We're closing in.  Fearful, protective of our turf, our shrinking turf.  No longer are we the #1 in the world, except at destroying others from 30,000 feet.

      Walking the dog today, I saw a restored VW Bug --I still have dreams of having a Bug  in a garage that I keep forgetting about and longing for (it's a dream --not supposed to make sense) -- and it was the first car I've seen in years that I lusted for.  Recapturing youth -- or hope?  

      What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away

      by Marie on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:21:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I had two of those bugs (none)
        To be young again! One of the most memorable love acts was in a Volkswagen bug pulled off to the side of an exit off a freeway. We just could not wait and were 10 minutes from home. I still do not know how we did it. Yes, it goes in cycles. Maybe this generation will try to break out and recapture that spirit.  For the last 15 years it seems people want to put people in box. You behave in a certain way. I think maybe these kids today will break out again and try to think about not what others think they should be but try to be what they think they should or can be. There is genius in all of us. It goes with my metaphysical beliefs. We are just different ways for the universe to look at itself and experience is everything. The fight that we are engaged in fighting the right wing fascists is just part of that experience. All the great ones tell us that life is art and we are all artists. Sometimes I love my art but sometimes my art sucks.

        Change 10% of the electorate and we will have a landslide and a mandate.

        by Jlukes on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:46:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Inside the Box (none)
          I still do not know how we did it.  Limber and young would be my guess -- still doesn't sound all that comfortable.

          The box is shrinking but I see little evidence that the kids today are even looking at the borders much less thinking about breaking through them.  They are too comfortable -- or willing to trade the illusion of safety and security for anything new and different.  They are not experimenters -- might have something to do with how science is taught today.  They prize technology but not pure science.  They live on crap derivative movies designed to appeal to adolescent boys.  Plant an IPOD and cell phone on them and they think they are in touch with the known world.

          I've noticed an odd phenomenon during the past few years -- and not sure I can articulate it.  Cycles are lasting much longer than they did in the past.  While techology has speeded up so many things in our lives -- cycles are slower.  For example business cycles that used to run a three to seven year course are now double that length.  What used to take one generation is taking two.  And yet when the change happens, it's less gradual - more sudden and intense.  Like the dot-com bust.  If what I have observed is operational in these times, then the housing bubble won't deflate but will burst.  It's possible that one of the necessary preconditions for a social/economic expansion phase if a real sense of security -- a sense of fearlessness.  We're a long way from that now.

          What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away

          by Marie on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:44:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I hope you are wrong. (none)
            I remember my mom talking about the 30's and how we almost had a revolution. Many of her friends were communists. People were all over the place politically. These people changed the world. So maybe you have to be very secure or you have to have nothing to lose. I fear we are going to have very hard economic times in the near future. Maybe this will wake them up. I think the reason is what you are saying. With all our gadgets we have insulated ourselves from reality. As long as we have our toys we are not only ok but we do not have to think about our world. We do not have to see any connections. An example of this is when Bush says the terrorists attacked us because they hate our freedom. It implies that we have done nothing to the countries in the Middle East. One of my nephews told me he did not care about innocent Iraqi's getting killed. He does not bother to learn about the region. He is intelligent but he just does not care. He thinks they are the enemy.  I was floored and I gave him hell. He is in his 30's. Then again I have others who get it. Some of them are quite wonderful but there are not any real rebels among them. None of them are out there as we used to say. That saddens me. I do not see any Hunter Thompsons or Timothy Learys either. I hope they return. We need people to call us on our bullshit.  

            Change 10% of the electorate and we will have a landslide and a mandate.

            by Jlukes on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:28:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Got so focused on the (none)
              sixties that I forgot the other half of the condition for change.  Down so far that change is the only open door.  Democrats have always shied away from calling the New Deal what it was -- socialism.  And it worked.  Worked so well that the GOP could chip away at it for twenty-five years without impacting the middle class by much.  It will crash at some point.  And the left will have to invent it all over again.  But the National Debt may make it much harder to do this time.

              Maybe next time we'll learn that our children need to be educated and not simply indoctrinated.  

              What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away

              by Marie on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:56:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  the National Debt may make it much harder (none)
                Not a problem.  We know who got the tax cuts, we know who gets the Haliburton profits, we know who's got the money.

                Just take it back from them.  A 100% property tax on registered Republicans would be a good start . . .

  •  GOT NEWS FOR YOU! (4.00)
    I'm originally from SMALL TOWN MA, and I remember LOUD & CLEAR, how much coverage John Kerry got protesting the Vietnam War and during the Fulbright Commission Hearings.

    You've got SELECTIVE MEMORY Pal. Very selective memory.

    Kerry had national news coverage, including an apearance on Dick Cavett. Kerry had tons of local MA coverage, including small towns.

    FYI, the documentary Going UpRiver includes the actual footage of news coverage Kerry got.

    NICE TRY, BUT YOUR THEORY IS FULL OF HOLES!

    http://www.thedemocraticdaily.com

    by kerrygoddess on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:50:55 PM PDT

    •  In the attempt to become the all.... (none)
      important ingredient in stopping war, it shouldn't be lost that it took everyone.  The soldiers, the veterans turned protestors, the mothers, the fathers, the Senator Fullbrights, as well as the hippies, all of it.

      "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

      by Cathy on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:04:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well said. (none)
        And very true! Thanks.

        http://www.thedemocraticdaily.com

        by kerrygoddess on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:07:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly (4.00)
          there were a lot of leaders in the peace movement of the '60's.

          I wouldn't classify Kerry as a major one, though he certainly played his part.

          It is unfortunate John Kerry did not remember who that young man he was some 30 years ago, while he was running for president.  That kind of courage and willingness to speak to power would have served him much better.

          The Divine lives within you. - Joseph Campbell

          by jaywillie on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:51:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry...must've missed him. (4.00)
      Y'see...i didn't have a TV. Only listened to music on the radio, and didn't buy the NY Times much. I'm certainly glad he was such a big influence on the people who did.

      If he wasn't in the East Village Other, Rat or the Voice...he wasn't speaking to me.

      Or FOR me.

      Just like in 2004. Only difference is that the underground papers are now the internet. He was the establishment's boy then, and he's the establishment's boy now.

      Sorry..."All the news that's fit to print" is just a slogan. It who DECIDES what is fit and what is not that's the problem.

      Charles

      •  So you admit you are clueless as to how (none)
        most people see things via the mass media lens, both then and now.

        Yet I am an asshole for pointing out these things in a diary with a provocative headline (which is timely given the conversation here of late) where I state repeatedly that I am not attacking "the fringe" and have been a part of numerous "fringe" sub-cultures in my life and can offer perspective bridging that to the mainstream culture (which is the uncritical thinking consumer of mass media messaging).

        Fucking unbelievable.

        cheers,

        Mitch Gore

        Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

        by Lestatdelc on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:22:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's a reverse snobbery (3.00)
          If it wasn't in The Village Voice, it didn't matter?

          That's kinda silly when you think about it.  Every aspect of an anti-war movement has validity and purpose.  Each person plays a particular kind of role in a particular moment.  

          John Kerry stepped in and played his part, as Cindy Sheehan does now, and it is a part that is helping to lift opposition to the tipping point.

          When the world was born, it was born on fire, and I'm watching it burn.--RealWest

          by hillaryk on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:09:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It was more like you read what was available (none)
            I don't think snobbery or silliness had anything to do with it. In the Bay Area we had the SF Chronicle and the Berkley Barb AND that's what we read.

            "Every aspect of an anti-war movement has validity and purpose.  Each person plays a particular kind of role in a particular moment."

            Absolutely! I couldn't agree more but can you see that when Kerry was testifying before congress we in CA were trying to shutdown weapons shipments at the Port Chicago Naval Weapons Station... It was closer to home.

            I wouldn't expect you to know what was going on out here, "it was a particular kind of role in a particular moment." Those close to it will always remember and most others probably won't even remember it as a footnote... and not knowing it would not make someone wrong or bad or silly.

            Point? I guess my point is that there's just to much happening AND no one can keep up with it all. If you're active in your role / moment and Charles is active in his role / moment... what's the problem?

            "Say kids, What time is it?" - Buffalo Bob Smith

            by SteveK on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:17:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Where's the anger coming from? (4.00)
          We all (those of us around at the time) were 'where we were' and 'how we were'... Of what was happening elsewhere 'WE'(all of us) were pretty much CLUELESS!

          Half hour Network News at 5:00, NO CNN, NO MSNBC hell there wasn't even Cable TV and a three minute cross-country phone call was $5.00 but I'm getting off point.

          My point is your posts sound angry / hostile and maybe that is getting in the way of the points that you are trying to make... but what-do-I-know!

          regards,

          Steve

          "Say kids, What time is it?" - Buffalo Bob Smith

          by SteveK on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:27:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not "clueless". (none)
          Doesn't take much to see what's up.

          Just generally uninterested.

          Then AND now.

          Charles

    •  Maybe in MA (none)
      But not anywhere I was or in the Fifth Estate or the other underground rags that were tracking the movement.  Kerry was a tick on the sheet of stuff that was happening, but not a Happening.
    •  He was well known in his home state, huh? (none)
      Makes sense.  

      But not in Chicago.

      He was a news blurb, sure, probably... for a day or two.

    •  1971 (none)
      The anti-war movement had been going on a long time before Kerry was involved.

      Those who do not learn from history are stupid. --darrelplant

      by darrelplant on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 10:48:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Please dispute this famous photo! (4.00)

    John Kerry, a director of the Vietnam Veterans against the War, testifies before the Senate Foreign Relations committee April 22, 1971.

    UPI Photo

    http://www.thedemocraticdaily.com

    by kerrygoddess on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 08:55:49 PM PDT

    •  I'm NOT "disputing" it. (4.00)
      I am disputing its validity and real impact.

      The resistance started the moment that bullet blew JFK's brains out.

      YEARS before kerry sat there in front of all of the stuffed shirts in his (consciously unpressed) uniform and his (deliberately long so as to contrast with his medals and thus make a statement about his hipness) hair.

      I wrote:

      "And his privilege blinded him to that ( the wrongness of that war) until he went under fire. THEN he wised up. A little. A foxhole conversion. And came home and assumed his rightful place as a rich Yalie white boy child of privilege. At the front of the line where he just KNEW he belonged. Leading the proles to safety. Looking all soulful and posing for the cameras in his fatigues. Talking all Harvard and Yale to the select committees that were the same then as they are now. Full of shit. "

      I stand by that.

      I do not WANT this to be so. I wish he had stood up during the campaign and after, but he didn't. He folded. From your name here I realize that this is hard for you to take. y

      You've made a committment.

      Me too.

      A long while ago.

      So it goes.

      Charles

    •  The diarist has a point (none)
      In my view, nothing we did actually stopped the war, not the demonstrations in 1965,1966, 1967, 1968 (wait the Gene McCarthy and RFK candidacies did get LBJ to drop out), 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974 and in 1975, the US was out but not because of us or John Kerry but because the war effort just collapsed.  There were no Vietnamese willing to fight anymore.  It became the senselessness it always was just now the military staff noticed it.

      But the diarist has a point John Kerry did not stop the war.  And a whole lot of antiwar protesters and not a few hippies got arrested or their heads busted trying futilely to stop the war.  And they damn well deserve the respect that most people have given Kerry for his efforts.  For they were there from 1965 on.  Kerry appeared in 1971--after Cambodia, after Kent State.

      The revolution starts now--in your own back yard, in your own home town

      by TarheelDem on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 05:57:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  From Wikipedia (4.00)
    Testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
    On April 22, 1971, Kerry became the first Vietnam veteran to testify before Congress about the war, when he appeared before a Senate committee hearing on proposals relating to ending the war. Wearing green fatigues and service ribbons, he spoke for nearly two hours with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in what has been named the Fulbright Hearing, after the Chairman of the proceedings, Senator J.W. Fulbright. Kerry began with a prepared speech, in which he presented the conclusions of the Winter Soldier Investigation, where veterans had described personally committing or witnessing war crimes. Kerry did not say he had seen them himself. He also addressed the problems faced by returning veterans.

    Most of his testimony addressed the larger policy issues. Kerry expressed his view that the war was essentially a civil war and that nothing in Vietnam was a realistic threat to the United States. He argued that the real reason for the continued fighting was political purposes: "Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, 'the first President to lose a war.'" That conclusion led him to ask: "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

    Senator Fulbright asked Kerry if he supported any of the proposals before the committee. Kerry responded that, based on his conversations in Paris with both Communist delegations to the peace talks (North Vietnamese and Viet Cong), he agreed with Senator Vance Hartke that, if the United States set a date for its withdrawal, it could then obtain the release of its prisoners of war.

    The protest at the U.S. Capitol
    The day after this testimony, Kerry participated in a demonstration with 800 other veterans in which he and other veterans threw their medals and ribbons over a fence at the front steps of the U.S. Capitol building to dramatize their opposition to the war. Jack Smith, a Marine, read a statement explaining why the veterans were returning their military awards to the government. For more than two hours, angry veterans tossed their medals, ribbons, hats, jackets, and military papers over the fence. Each veteran gave his or her name, hometown, branch of service and a statement. As Kerry threw his ribbons and the medals of two other absent veterans over the fence, his statement was: "I'm not doing this for any violent reasons, but for peace and justice, and to try and make this country wake up once and for all." Some have questioned whether he gave up his own medals or just the ribbons during the demonstration at the Capitol; see John Kerry VVAW controversy for a full discussion.

    Media appearances
    Because Kerry was a decorated veteran who took a stand against the government's official position, he was frequently interviewed by broadcast and print media. He was able to use these occasions to bring the themes of his Senate testimony to a wider audience.

    For example, Kerry appeared more than once on The Dick Cavett Show on ABC television. On one Cavett program (June 30, 1971), in debating John O'Neill, Kerry argued that some of the policies instituted by the U.S. military leaders in Vietnam, such as free-fire zones and burning noncombatants' houses, were contrary to the laws of war. In the Washington Star newspaper (June 6, 1971), he recounted how he and other Swift boat officers had become disillusioned by the contrast between what the leaders told them and what they saw: "That's when I realized I could never remain silent about the realities of the war in Vietnam."

    On NBC's Meet The Press in 1971, Kerry was asked whether he had personally committed atrocities in Vietnam. He responded:

    "There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals."
    In the 2004 United States presidential campaign, Kerry's critics often cited this statement. In a 2004 interview, again on Meet The Press, Kerry explained that he regrets using the phrase "war criminals".

    Operation POW
    Kerry's prominence also made him a frequent leader and spokesman at antiwar events around the country in 1971. One of particular note was Operation POW, organized by the VVAW in Massachusetts. The protest got its name from the group's concern that Americans were prisoners of the Vietnam War, as well as to honor American POWs held captive by North Vietnam.

    The event sought to tie antiwar activism to patriotic themes. Over the Memorial Day weekend, veterans and other participants marched from Concord to a rally on Boston Common. The plan was to invoke the spirit of the American Revolution and Paul Revere by spending successive nights at the sites of the Battle of Lexington and Concord and the Battle of Bunker Hill, culminating in a Memorial Day rally with a public reading of the Declaration of Independence.

    The second night of the march, May 29, was the occasion for Kerry's only arrest, when the participants tried to camp on the village green in Lexington. At 2:30 a.m. on May 30, local and state police awoke and arrested 441 demonstrators, including Kerry, for trespassing. All were given the Miranda Warning and were hauled away on school buses to spend the night at the Lexington Public Works Garage. Kerry and the other protestors later paid a $5 fine and were released. At the time, Kerry's wife kept $100 under her pillow in case she needed to bail her husband out of jail if he was arrested at a protest. The mass arrests caused a community backlash and ended up giving positive coverage to the VVAW.

    Despite his important role in Operation POW and other VVAW events, as time went on Kerry found that VVAW was becoming more radical. Kerry was trying to moderate the group, to push it in the direction of nonviolence and working within the system. Other members, however, were more militant. Kerry eventually quit the organization over this difference in approach. Some have raised questions about exactly when Kerry left VVAW; see John Kerry VVAW controversy for a full discussion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry#Anti-Vietnam_War_activism_.281970-1971.29


    (Kerry (upper left) is arrested in May, 1971 while leading the VVAW in a protest ("Operation POW") in Lexington, Massachusetts.)


    (Kerry with ex-Beatle John Lennon during a protest rally at New York City's Bryant Park in the summer of 1971.)

    http://www.thedemocraticdaily.com

    by kerrygoddess on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:02:34 PM PDT

    •  Hippies and John Kerry (4.00)
      John Kerry made extraordinarily eloquent testimony before the Senate subcommittee "way back when" I had the good fortune to hear a transcript of it during the last year. However, any toughness he may have had in the past surely did not show up during the 2004 election cycle. What happened to him?
  •  Going Upriver - MUST SEE!!! (4.00)
    If only everyone had seen this movie before the election, we would not be bitching about Bloody George right now.

    This movie is must see for anyone who wants to understand the sixties. The heart of the movie, the center 3/4ths is sandwiched by the beginning and end, which are more like a campaign movie. I think Netflix has this movie. You won't regret it. The protracted section on the vets throwing their medals at the White House is heartbreaking. The description of the whole reason for the Swiftboat program is obviously something the Iraq war mongers never knew about. It was folly!

    The Bush administration is a Travesty of a Mockery of a Sham!

    by Bailey Savings and Loan on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:04:38 PM PDT

  •  Yours and Lestatdelc's (4.00)
    diaries have brought home to me tonight, just how much things have changed since the VN movement and now.  Including how staged everything is now, and artificial.  

    In the 60s and 70s, most of us had only 3 or 4 television stations and no 24hour new channels.  How artificial everything has become.  

    How much actual time did the protestors then actually spend trying to script, and hone their emotions and passions into a presentable picture for the public.  No wonder the public seems dead now and does not care.  We have turned into a society expecting to be entertained by a presentable peace movement, rather than one full of passionate people fighting to save their own lives and the ones of their familiy members before they were sent to war.

    In the sixties, though I was a teenager, I lived and breathed the peace movement. I sang it , it formed my ideals, it made me laugh, and yell and fight with my father, and cry.  It was everywhere.  Now, it's managed by handlers, and I don't have to know about it if I don't want to.

    All the time, I long for those days back then, not just because of the hippies and the peace movement , but because of my involvement in life and the genuineness and idealism of it all.  

    When Johnson lied, the anger boiled into the streets.  When Bush lies, we turn on the television or get on the internet and wait for the fake news channels to react.

    •  There is hope, though..... (4.00)
      Reading these comments has got me thinking, though, that maybe there is hope after all.

      There is a rise of internet blogging in the last few years, and Bush's divisionist tactics have galvanized us to some extent. Maybe the internet is our new Kent State -- can the outrage being spewed out here carry over in some way to the people?

      I'm just wondering. I need hope. If not, we're all screwed.

      "Getting on with my life means a life without my dear, sweet boy. I wish a little bike ride could help me get on with my life." Cindy Sheehan

      by Dunbar on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:20:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ooo... (none)
      When Johnson lied, the anger boiled into the streets.  When Bush lies, we turn on the television or get on the internet and wait for the fake news channels to react.

      Ain't that the truth!

      But ya know I remember getting in mail from networks acros the country and then making masters for the mimeograph machine and cranking out copies until your arm nearly feel off... so the net has some advantages.

      And now I live a pretty remote and isolated life - got my income needs down to about $750 - $800.00 a month and without the net I would be left with Free Speech TV and CNN so...  

  •  Right On! (4.00)
    Tuxedo or Toga it doesn't matter. What's missing is the draft, the burning draft cards, the tear gas in the street, "the man coming to take you away." I don't know if I'm a hippie or not, but nuanced bullshit I read here ain't gonna change the world. We changed the world. We drew attention to ourselves and said "something's wrong here." Finally the media caught on. It was Kent State, it was My Lai, the girl running from the napalm, the body bags, "the horror."

    It just doesn't matter. If you are against the war, get out and protest, smell the tear gas and spit in their eye. Put down your X-Box and do something!

    Otherwise, shut the fuck up!

    "Something is happening here and you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones."

  •  So glad to see this diary (4.00)
    I did voter registration in the 60s and worked for civil rights before I was involved in the antiwar movement. And was a hippy. It was the international youth movement and was a style that included activists, hedonists, artists, pagans (or soon to be), utopians, and a whole lot more.

    We didn't quite die out, mostly we got on with living our lives.

    and yet there is still this if you want a taste:

    "The annual Starwood Festivals have been presented by the Cleveland-based Association for Consciousness Exploration, a group of about thirty friends. ACE's co-directors, Jeff Rosenbaum and Joe Rothenberg, were both raised in traditional Jewish homes. Rosenbaum's parents were Holocaust survivors. He calls himself a pantheistic social libertarian with a psychedelic spiritual orientation.

    "Everything is explored by altering it," he says. "The way you explore temperature is by seeing how different temperatures affect something. The way you explore pressure is by changing the pressure to see how that affects different things. The way you study consciousness is by changing your consciousness."

    The first event was on a weekend, attended by 185 people, with twenty presentations and a bonfire built from an old split-rail fence. This July marked the twenty-fifth anniversary of Starwood; the weeklong event drew 1,600, with 150 presentations and twenty musical and theatrical performances. I attended several workshops, including "Shamans and Drugs" by Stanley Krippner, a psychology professor at Saybrook Institute, psychic researcher and co-author of Dream Telepathy. A member of the Rainforest Action Network, he mentioned a Brazilian tribe, the Guarani, whose members have hanged themselves from endangered trees. I related my participation at an ayahuasca ceremony in Ecuador where the shaman's shrine included a sealed-beam headlight from an old Buick and a gray clamshell-like item that opens up, revealing a head of the Virgin Mary that can be used as a Jell-o mold."http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20050824/cm_thenation/20050829krassner

     

    SOCIAL SECURITY: Invented by Democrats yesterday, Protected by Democrats today

    by mollyd on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:08:19 PM PDT

  •  Tell it, white boy! (4.00)
    Yeah!!  I was there too, and I never knew about John Kerry .. never heard of him until way later.  

    The "hippies" were kind, gentle, idealistic, and CARING .... and you who were not there probably have no sense of what a sea-change this was.

    I mean, we went from do-wop-de-dop to Dylan, Beatles, Stones, et al in the space of a couple of years.  Can you fathom how exciting that was?  The creativity and soulfulness and spirituality that came out of every crack in the woodwork in those days .. it was astounding.  My faith in human nature was literally revived.  People I never thought could possibly have a humane bone in their body turned out to be the kindest, gentlest souls .... it was humbling.  It taught me never to pre-judge anybody.  It taught me that their is good in everybody, as hackneyed as that may sound these days.

    I was a HIPPIE and damn it, I'm PROUD ... and BLESSED to have been around what was going down in those days.

  •  "We had a youth movement." (none)
    Yeah.  And now we got Metamucil...

    Nice post.

    Peace.

    JF

  •  Great stuff, Charles (4.00)
    I was a longhair.  The way I explain the difference is: Hippies believed in love changing the world.  Longhairs were murdered at Kent State.  There was a patch that some wore.  It had a black background and a scraggly white tree stripped of most branches and any leaves.  It had a label: SURVIVAL.  [Nothing to with "survivalists" of today - it meant more like "don't get shot."]  Some say Altamont was where the 60's died; for us it was 1/1/70.  We didn't wear tie-dye; we wore jeans and Dickey's work shirts (to symbolize solidarity with the working man).  My shirt was brown.  I found a Caterpillar hat that said "CAT Power", so I ripped off the label and sewed it over my pocket.  I still have my jean jacket.  I cannot believe my chest was ever that small.  I was 6'2", 185 lbs, and walked 5 miles up and down mountains coming home from college or the library (way out in the country; no way to catch a ride at night).

    I also sewed a small American flag at the bottom of my jeans leg, where it had frayed apart.  I was walking to town, heard a car, and spun around with my thumb out.  Of course it was a state trooper.  I waved, turned around, and kept walking.  He drove up very close (a 429, VERY nice), then examined my pant leg flag for fifteen minutes or so, this way/that way, maybe trying to figure what I could be charged with, if anything.  Luckily, my sister, much older and very respectable, came along and talked him out of any action.  He left me with instructions to take it off as soon as I got home, which of course I never did.  T.G. Hall is probably dead now, but I had nothing to do with it.

    I took part in one small demonstration at college, in 1973.  No big deal.  The kids running it were calling out "point of order" and other wonky shit that I never heard of.  They were all from Long Island, and apparently all student government stars.  I didn't do a hell of a lot about the war, except worry when my draft lottery approached.  I filed CO status, but the number saved me: 327 when 69 was tops.  

    I saw clips of the war growing up.  I was 11 in 1964; 18 in 1971.  I remember Dan Rather and other reporters dropping down under fire, obviously thinking "holy shit - I could've gotten it," or more likely, "did I shit my pants??" They showed some wounded, usually peaceful but some screaming, very very few dead that I recall.  I recall pictures of body bags, but mostly it was the numbers, day by day: 283 casualties; 425 enemy dead.  Always always more of them dead than us.  Now I know what's in the body bag, and if Kerry's crew did body removal as he says, it must have been enough to turn your stomach in that steaming field/plain/paddie/jungle.  Now I know what's in the body bag.

    Yes, Kerry did come in late, but he did make an impression in the Senate and across the country.  I saw an excerpt of the testimony, and the whole Dick Cavett interview.  He was obviously a million miles above me in terms of money and privilege, used to a life I would probably never know.  But he was doing something, and I don't care if he built a political career out of it.  He did more than I did, and every little bit counted.  We were trying to turn a whole country, and it was like rowboats trying to steer the Titanic.  Or an aircraft carrier.

    I still cry when I hear Four Dead in Ohio. CSNY incited me to riot with a dozen songs, but I had no target.  I remember Rubin and Hoffman, who I thought were both too over the top.  When the phrase, "kill your parents" emerged, I was turned off.  When Hoffman published Steal This Book, I did.  I have a Weatherman book somewhere.  

    I remember that the Overlords seemed both impenetrable and porous.  Nixon's villainy was so transparent.  And "we" were able to bomb the Senate and the Pentagon.  The Pentagon!  No one's ever let the Pentagon be ... oh.  W.  9/11.

    Somewhere, gradually, the tide turned.  It was still worth your life (sometimes literally) to wear long hair, but the majority of the nation said no.  Enough.  There was no Cindy Sheehan as a fulcrum point, certainly John Kerry wasn't, and boy, Jane Fonda didn't help, but it happened.

    So I pass some lessons on to my son, who's 14 and would be 18 if Bush tried one last mad stab at Iran.  We've applied to take him out of the Pentagon database (thank you dailyKos), and I've showed him how the "Patriot" Act is very unpatriotic, plus other acts of Bushspeak ("Clean Air Act", etc.) are all shit.  Once he reads 1984, I'll ask him to draw parallels.

    "Figs! In the name of The Prophet, figs!" E.A. Poe

    by moltar on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 09:26:05 PM PDT

    •  hippies (none)
      He Moltar, we are "peas in the pod"  Thanks a million for a great post.

      mikolo

      •  followup (none)
        Please forgive my crappy keyboard skills. Of course I meant to say "Hey Moltar"
        •  That's cool, Mikolo (none)
          Nice to know you're not alone.  I remember when spotting another longhair meant "Brutha!" and you had an ally.   So, thank you brutha!  I do think the best we can do is what has always been true: pass on the best you can to your kids.

          Dig it: my son is Jewish.  His best friend is Black.  His other friends are Asian, Christian, all kinds, and he cannot possibly understand how their skin color could matter.  It's a mystery to him.

          The revolution (at least this little piece of it) is over, and we have WON.

          "Figs! In the name of The Prophet, figs!" E.A. Poe

          by moltar on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:52:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Keyboard Commandos are part of the problem. (3.25)
    Charles you are absolutely RIGHT!

    I'd like to add a few angry comments.

    My dad (an old-school blue-collar ultra-liberal Democrat) used to tell me "judge people by what they DO not by what they SAY."

    There are one hell of a lot of people TALKING here. But how many of you are actually DOING something that makes a difference? (You know ... the "walk the walk" cliche.)

    Dad also used to tell me "the action is on the field, not in the stands."

    During the 60's there were hundreds of thousands of hippies (and others) "on the field." The risks were real. People were clubbed and beaten and SHOT.

    Today? Most of you are sitting in the stands. Look at the LOUSY (yes lousy) support most of you have given Cindy Sheehan. Oh plenty of talk (work those keyboards, work 'em ... talk is cheap) ... and some contibutions (very very safe ... at least their tangible). BUT, how many of you have gone to Crawford? How many are willing to take the risks that your predecessors did in the sixties? Afraid to get a little dirty? Maybe sweat a little? Go without your morning Starbucks?

    The number of supporters going to Crawford has only been in the hundreds. By comparison to the 60s, that's embarrassing.

    Until you quit talking and start acting, taking risks, getting your ass in the street or whatever it takes, you have no right to criticize what we did or how we did it 30-plus years ago.

    To lestatdelc and the other keyboard commandos:
    YOU are part of the fucking PROBLEM. Until you fully participate in this war with the Rabid Right .... until you enlist with your body and soul (not just your ego and your fingertips) you're just a chickenhawk sitting on the left side of the fence.

    •  Amen (4.00)
      The movements are divided in half...those that get dirty and busted and cold, and those that reap the camera and presstime and blogtime.  kos slagged the former.  

      And like it or not, those of you on the sidelines, a few of us gen-x'ers learned from our parents and are still living a message of peace and hope and helping out your neighbour.

      •  Actually,... (none)
        That was a pretty shitty and inaccurate thing to write.  Movements have more than 2 sides, obviously, but after all of the diaries, I felt like there were 2 sides.  Just anger misdirected, I guess.  
    •  I am part of the "problem"...? (1.00)
      FUCK YOU ASSHOLE.

      Where the fuck do you get off saying the shit you just did mother fcker?!?!

      I have been against this war form the get go fuck face, and I have a 18 year old kid facing down the barrel as he is in the military so blow it out your ass mother fucker!!

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

      by Lestatdelc on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:24:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please accept my sincere apology (4.00)
        I retract the statements directed specifically at you. I reacted in anger to your original post.

        My beef is with those whose only contibution is wind and whose greatest risk is sore fingertips.

        With a son in the military you have the right to criticize in any way you choose.

        I have a son, older than yours, he's draft age. My fear of his future fuels the anger I feel over this goddamn war.

        My sincerest apology.

        Michael

  •  Bread (4.00)
    Our secret weapon was we weren't afraid of being poor.  Yeah, we had great music and protested the war, and tie dye was great until somebody figured out a way to mass produce it.  But what gave us courage was that we weren't afraid of The Man cutting off our income if we didn't conform.  That's what Life magazine was tsk-tsking about when they said hippies "dropped out of society."  Now the right is tsk-tsking about the same thing.  All they're doing is repeating phrases they've heard.  They have no idea what it really meant.  What it meant was, we didn't need new clothes and $20 mascara and a half million dollar house with four bathrooms and four toilets to clean, so we were free to be ourselves, and if mainstream society shunned us for that, we'd take care of each other.

    But until about 1976 the economy was pretty forgiving.  Now you can't just walk into and out of a job when you feel like it (although your employer can fire you whenever he feels like it).  Everybody's scared and looking out for themselves.  To the degree that GenX got selfish (and some did, but others didn't), a lot of it was based on a very real economic fear that us baby boomers didn't have to deal with.

    There's a reason it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.  It's harder to be brave now than it was in the 60's and turn your back on all that glitters, but it's all the more necessary.

    •  Well Said (none)
      I'd like to add a bit of reality concerning the student loan industry as well.

      It sucks to to owe $30,000 Grand after graduation and makes it a little harder to leave mainstream society.

      A failed President= August 6 PDB, Bin Laden? DSM, WMD's? Abu Ghraib, Rove/Plame

      by Gator on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:01:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  of course, (none)
      there wasn't anything to buy.

      only half-joking.

      you have to give up a lot more today. laptops, broadband access, i Tunes, ...

  •  No joke! (4.00)
    Thanks for all you hippies did.  It made a real difference.
    I may not like patchouli and birkenstocks, but the hippies and the Yippies and all of the Love/Antiwar movement types are what caused the paradigm shift that ended vietnam, or so I'm told.  I'm buying THAT story, and sticking to it. :D
  •  I'm glad we're not about judging people by income (3.66)
    and things like that. That we would never dream of rabid, ranting, foaming-at-the-mouth bashing on somebody just because he grew up with more money than we did. And of course we would never, ever demean someone's service to this country by saying that he joined up and served only because he was stupid or too blinded by privilege to make the smart decision. No, we're not any kind of elitists here, no sirree bob. Glad to see it.
    •  I am NOT judging kerry by income. (4.00)
      Some of my best friends are rich.

      HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

      (Getting ahold of myself...)

      Really.

      Just by what I know of the world.

      I have seen it too often.

      Much has been made by a small minority here about his high position and visibility in the Vetreans Against the War movement.

      Lestatdelc wrote in the diary that first burned me up that kerry "had far more impact in swaying people that the Vietnam War was wrong and we needed to get out ASAP than `hippies'...because of his background, because of his demeanor, because of his approach, because of they way he presents."

      What the hell do YOU think he was saying?

      He was saying that kerry came off as a patrician, white, Ivy League boy, so he shot to the head of the class. Do you REALLY think that if the had been from some backwoods West Virgina holler or East St Louis he would have been in all those positions of visibility?

      Not a CHANCE.

      He was a politician on the make then, and he is one still.

      That's MY take on the matter.

      Well financed (relative to that scene, for SURE....), and conscious of his image.

      FORGET "Never trust anyone over 30."

      Never trust anyone who is a member of Skulll and Bones.

      Never. it means that at the very LEAST they are:

      1-Independently wealthy.

      and

      2-Will play the game to get the power.

      That's all the two strikes I need.

      Need more?

      Third strike?

      2004.

      "Yer OUTTA HERE!!!"

      Charles

      •  I don't really care (4.00)
        what Lestatdelc said. I think you've seriously misjudged Kerry. I don't really care what frat he belonged to at Yale. As for 2004 -- Kerry campaigned his heart out, and it was clear when it was over that he felt he'd let us all down. I'm still loyal to him, and I know quite a few people who are.
        •  Kerry and Bush are Skull and Bones brothers (4.00)
           And that matters to me.
          •  And more than THAT... (4.00)
            They are hereditary representatives of the wealthy, white, Anglo-Saxon power structure that has been in place here for hundreds of years. Its power was based on buying, selling and doing  WHATEVER made it richer, with absolutely no reference to any kind of objective morality (slaves, opium, robber-baron style "trusts", environmental nightmares, anti-labor violence...), and what is most important...NEITHER OF THEM HAS IN ANY WAY EVER REPUDIATED THAT HISTORY OR THAT CLASS.

            They represent the two wings of the Permanent Government.

            The bare naked iron fist and the iron fist that covered by a velvet glove.

            I am of several minds about the whole Skull and Bones thing. Despite overwhelming circumstantial evidence that it is indeed a society dedicated to preserving the ruling class status quo by whatever means necessary, I have a hard time believing in conspiracies on a very broad level. Too difficult to preserve the secrecy without SERIOUS threat of harm. (The CIA, on the other hand...omerta with the full power of the Federal Government behind it instead of a couple of street kids named Vinny.)

            But I am NOT of several minds about the (perhaps somewhat unconscious) tendency of the ruling class to favor its own best interests over those of the population as a whole. And THERE...kerry and Butch are simply two trusted representatives of the two different branches.

            Yale or no.

            Charles

  •  two things bro (4.00)
    1-----You MY hero as were all the hippies since I grew up in a hippie valley turned billionaire boys club. And I think Mr. "War Hawk" was way off base in his assessments.

    2-----Don't believe that those who VOLUNTEER for military duty are not HEROES!!!!!  Was the war wrong?  Absolutely.  Is this war wrong?  Absolutely.  But first and foremost our sons and daughters who enlist in this volunteer army for whatever reason during whatever time have honorable intentions and are therefore noble people.  And yes Kerry did help the end the war just as you did.  And yes I think Kerry was definitely a different person back then than he is now.  We all were saying "where's the Kerry from the Senate hearings" as the SBVT bitches were bashing him.

    Point being.  Kerry has a conscience.  Getting shot at changed him, it didn't make him a pussy.  If any of us get shot at and like it and want more of it then there is something wrong with that person.  But at least he had the courage to serve (unlike Bush) and at least he had the courage to come back after shooting people and being SHOT and saying "hey, its a mess over there...our mission is ambiguous at best and we need to get the FUCK out!"  Courage comes in different forms brother and you should know that.  And yeah, he had some connections to power that got him noticed above other vets against the war and got him placed front and center in the Senate hearings.  And yeah he is now an uber wealthy sen. from MA.  That does not make him a piece of shit.  Being successful at anything is not a crime(unless your a republican--hehe).

    I'm gonna buy a gun and start a war, if you could tell me something worth fighting for.-----Coldplay

    by CO4Kerry2004 on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:09:23 PM PDT

  •  amen amen (4.00)
    What a well-spoken post.

    The right-wing smear machine has been doing a number on hippies for thirty years now, and all because hippies would rather live an independent, self-sufficient lifestyle rather than kowtow to the rich and powerful and drink their kool-aid. Nothing  annoys the rich and powerful more than common people who not only don't know their place, but who also attempt to live outside of their leadership. I think of hippies and I think of people who accept others for who they are rather than for what can be gotten from them.

    It really irks me when progressives, who know very well how much truth is to be found in corporate smear tactics, still fall for propaganda about hippies.

    And I also agree with you that I had never heard of Kerry at the time, though I had heard of the veteran's organization that he was a part of.

    You have a right to vote, but do you have a right that the government count your vote?

    by Toddlerbob on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:22:31 PM PDT

    •  You write: (none)
      'It really irks me when progressives, who know very well how much truth is to be found in corporate smear tactics, still fall for propaganda about hippies."

      Well, Toddlerbob...maybe that means that "progressives" do NOT understand the power that the media holds over them.

      Know what I mean?

      You also write:

      "Nothing  annoys the rich and powerful more than common people who not only don't know their place, but who also attempt to live outside of their leadership."

      Tell me about it. The story of my life in one succinct sentence.

      Charles

  •  Interesting and useful thread (4.00)
    Hippie bashing is about the stupidest thing anyone on the left could be doing right now.  For the most part I think hippie-bashing comes, like Charles said, from the corporate-media image of hippies we've been fed.  I was too young to be politically involved in the sixties but there was most definitely a feeling of hope even amid the despair of the war and assassinations that is gone from American life.  Both left and right are cynical now and pragmatism is not an appealing enough alternative to cynicism for me.  The hippies were nothing if not idealistic and I think most viewed pragmatism as a lack of vision, as I do today.  Kerry and Gore conceding the last 2 elections were pragmatic acts.  Winning political offices for Democrats is a pragmatic goal but Bill Clinton and the current Democrats in Congress have proved what a puny goal it is.  The innovation of internet political communication has been tremendous and has probably given most of us hope when we read so many voices that share our disgust over the direction of this country.  But we need a lot more idealism if we want to make this country fundamentally different as the hippies, love them or hate them, certainly did.  I love them.
  •  I was there (4.00)
    and if I wasn't trying to escape a hurricane, I'd write my own diary about being a "hippie".

    Thanks SusanG and Charleslives and others.  You are absolutely correct.

    We were in rebellion against the hypocrisy and conformism of our parent's generation that was based on hate.  We held in our dreams, the possibility that the world would no longer be held prisoner by lies and prejudice.

    To be a hippie was to be directly plugged into the collective conscious.  I repeat - DIRECTLY.

    I am going to diary this as soon as I'm out of New Orleans.

  •  Hardly remember? (none)
    "Because I don't even REMEMBER kerry from that period. Hardly remember the Veterans Against the War."

    Hmm, I wonder what could make a hippie forget things.

    I kid, I kid. I think that it's easy to take the cheap shots at hippies because there's the perception that they squandered whatever influence they may have had, or they just grew up and became part of the machine.

  •  This GenXer gives thanks (4.00)
    Man, I just read through about half of this diary and am amazed at how tethered so many of the posters are to their subjective perspective.  

    Look, there was a lot going on in the 60's and 70's, just like there is a lot going on now.  People have their own diverse experience and perspectives.  If Charles doesn't remember Kerry, then that was his truth.  Maybe Charles is wrong on Kerry's influence, maybe he is right, I can't say because I was a follicle in my mom's ovary around that time.  It seems to me that Charles' main problem was the anti-hippie bullshit being thrown around by people that should know better.

    I am a Gen Xer

    I was raised in the afterglow of hippie movement, 50 miles from Sproul Hall, Haight and Ashbury, and Alcatraz (all places that mean something to those that know their history).  The community I was raised in was inspired by the energy of the hippie movement, the black panther party, AIM, FSM and all of the other blessings of that time.  

    To discount the hippie movement is just BS. It was(is) SUCCESSFUL.  It got a bunch of middle class white folk to crawl outside of their white picket fence bubble.  It was a breeding ground, a wedding chapel, for some of the major movements of the 70's : Environmentalism, Feminism, Indian rights, Chicano, Black Panther, and Gay rights, etc. etc.   Would we have had abortion rights, Gay marraige, Hate Crime laws, Organic food or Nirvana without that experience?  Would I be a zen buddhist today if it wasn't for TM during the 60's?

    It is also a big mistake to assume that the Hippie movement was some monolithic entity.  It WASN'T.  Some Hippies were just there for the weed.  While others were still wearing ties but burned their draft cards and grew a garden.  

    I had the benefit of working with Mario Savio before he died.  He, like Sheehan, was just an ordinary person.  The circumstances made him extraordinary, and he rose to the occasion.  Was he the person responsible for FSM?  Was Kerry responsible for ending 'Nam?  Both are impossible.  

    The answer is that America was prepared for Mario to be successul, just as the America was prepared for Kerry's testimony to be effective.  The preparation, the subtle shifting of a cultural paradigm was already in motion by the time Mario stepped onto that cop car and Kerry was turning on his mic.  

    We can't look at historical changes as being the result of a single persons actions.  Mario was just one more raindrop in a lake that  was ready to break over the top of the damn.  He was given the moment to be that raindrop and he fulfilled his task, but the water was already cresting.  The cognitive disonance in America was already boiling over.  What would Mario have been without  MLK, Allen Ginsberg and McCarthy from the previous decade?  Had the UC Berkeley president played his cards better, there would never have been an FSM.  In History, what finally causes a change to occur can be traced to singular events, but the direction of the change, the actual nature of the outcome, is determined not by that singular actor alone, but by the direction of the culture, indeed, the direction of the story, at the time of the event.  

    The arrow in time that was Vietnam had a direction to it, and it was no doubt a result of all of the work that the hippies, panthers, beatniks, and civil rights workers did prior to its end.  That being said however, Vietnam was also played out by 72.  it was obvious the war was lost and it wasn't the direct result of  Johnny Moonbeam </sarcasm> burning his draft card.  It was a direct result of the stupidity of going to war in indochina in the first place.

    So.  Stop bagging on hippies, and stop bagging on Gen Xers.  I claim membership to both, and I'm damn thankful for both my fair trade, organic hemp shirt I wore to my handfasting, and my glossy plastic iMac I'm typing this post with.  We're frickin' blessed by our ancestors.  Without them, we would not be.

  •  Well done! (4.00)
    Because I don't even REMEMBER kerry from that period. Hardly remember the Veterans Against the War.

    Impact?

    Dylan. Tom Hayden. Malcolm X. Abbie Hoffman. Muhammad Ali. Joan Baez. John Lennon. Paul Krassner. Jimmy Breslin., Norman Mailer. William Burroughs. Underground newspapers by the hundreds.  A thousand THOUSAND freaks of all varieties saying "HELL no. We won't go.!!!" All OVER the media. All OVER the minds of the people. All over the DEMOCRATS, eventually.

    Without the youth movement of the `60s and `70s...we would have had this right wing media-fascist government 30 years EARLIER.

    I agree.  
    And, one of the sad things is that there is no similar youth-based and pop-culture-based movement in the whole Iraq insanity, aside from Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 activity.

    If you look at the "peace" movement, it is mothers and fathers, people in their 40s and 50s, veterens and gold-star mothers.  

    Pop-culture has only had a drip here and a drab there ( Dixie Chicks, Springsteen, Sean Penn ), even the almighty Rolling Stones are too cautious and too afraid to even think about performing their song "Sweet Neo-Con" on their big concert tour.  

    Contrast this with the 60s, where you had "Woostock", you had The Smothers Brothers show on the prime-time, mainstream, free airwaves, you had Crosby,Stills,Nash,&Young, John Lennon, Muhammad Ali, Howard Cosell, Jimmy Hendrix, Timothy Leary, Colleges all across the USA.  Rock music as a whole phenomina was almost interchangable with the anti-war people.  It was a force even Nixon & Hoover & the CIA couldn't restrain.

    It's young people who are the biggest victims of this culture of perpetual war.   Yet only their parents right now are standing up and fighting for the future.

    It's time for a new Youth Movement.
    It's time for pop-culture to finally rise-up and say "Clear Channel or no Clear Channel - this is too important. If they perform, people will show up.  If the music is good it will sell no matter what.  Build the coalition.

    Build the coalition of a massive, united Rock/Hip-Hop/cultural artist society that will speak truth to power and inspire the younger generation.

    We saw, in Michael Moore's film, that despite the right-wing noise machine it can still be powerful and effective.  

    It is just so more effective when everybody is doing it.  

    Time to speak-up and speak-out people..

    •  Unified youth culture.... (none)
      Spent a lot of time this week on the Electronic Dance Music (they don't like to be called ravers) boards, trying to help with the aftermath of the Utah County raid.

      There was a post by one promoter trying to organize a big free rally/concert at the Utah State Capitol.

      "We've got 7 promoters and 14 djs so far...." Me: "Broaden it. Invite performers across the spectrum. Everyone from Country to hip-hop." "I never thought of that. I'll bring it up."

      No-one who voted against the USAPATRIOT Act has lost an election. I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State. Or Yours.

      by ben masel on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:15:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No new movements of ANY kind (none)
      unless they are primarily based on communication through non-corporate owned and dominated media.

      Tough task, if you consider the numbers necessary to put together a real "mass movement".

      In the '60s and '70s as you say, it was everywhere. The PermaGov understood theiir mistake in LETTING it be everywhere, and took drastic steps to stop that possibility from ever happening again.

      Only they missed the future, as is proper to reactionaries. As they ALWAYS do. They missed the internet until it was too late to effectively do anything about it.

      And here we are...back into it again.

      Bits and bytes instead of incense and pipes.

      VAYA!!!

      Charles

      •  Music is a great way to bring people together (none)

        A bunch of people wankin on the internet is not going to save the world.

        Ultimately, it means troops on the ground.  That is why Camp Casey is working so well.

        We have something actually physically happening there.  Lesson learned:  "Build it and they will come!"

        We have to get the youth involved, the music artists & community involved.

        When all you have is 1 guy, whether it be Michael Moore or Cindy Sheehan, it is easy to just swift-boat them and create a way of discrediting them.

        When you have lots and lots of people coalesce: from musicians, to filmmakers, to citizens out on the streets, to church & clergyman, to military families, to op-ed writers, etc.  then it is much much harder to overcome that power and that collective truth.

        I am criticizing the fact that there is no youth movement and pop-culture movement like there was is the 60s.    Maybe it is because there is no John Lennon type of figure, no Muhammad Ali, no Martin L. King,  but we do have Michael Moore and so the point is that we need to get more people on board to build the same mass movement.

        Sitting passively at your keyboard ain't going to change the world.

        Marching in the streets with song and voice filling the air just might!

  •  I remember Kerry (none)
    from that period, as I'm certain most veterans would.  Not all of us were fortunate enough to get student deferments while attending Harvard or Yale.

    We all did a lot of good things back in the day.  But I also remember the ripoffs, the busts, the vacuousness, self-righteousness, predatory sexuality and all the other sins flesh is heir to.  In short, my generation was just another float in the human parade.  I met a lot of wonderful people (of all ages) in the movement, and I met a lot of creeps and assholes.

    I meet the same people today.  Let's hope it doesn't take us 10 years to end THIS war.  Above all, let us be kind to one another!

    www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

    by chuckvw on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 10:58:01 PM PDT

    •  Ginsberg... (4.00)
      I was going to quote something, regarding your comment about the great people and the assholes.  Couldn't find it, but I found this one titled:

      Anti-Vietnam War Peace Mobilization

      White sunshine on sweating skulls
      Washington't Monument pyramided high granite clouds
      over a soul mass, children screaming in their brains on quite grass
      (black man strapped hanging in blue denims fron an earth cross)-
      Soul brightness under blue sky
      Assembled before White House filled with mustached Germans
      & police buttons, army telephones, CIA Buzzers, FBI bugs
      Secret Service walkie-talkies, Intercome squawkers to Narco
      Fuzz & Florida Mafia Real Estate Speculators
      One hundred thousand bodies naked before an Iron Robot
      Nixon's brain Presidential cranium case spying thru binoculars
      from the Paranois Smog Factory's East Wing

      (may 9, 70)

      •  I think I saw Ginsberg (none)
        perform this one at the March Moratorium demo in DC many a moon ago.  Thanks for the reminder!

        Well, that is to say, I saw Ginsberg, and I think he intoned this poem during his appearance.  Lest it be forgotten, the Beach Boys also performed for the peace crowd that day...

        www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

        by chuckvw on Sat Aug 27, 2005 at 11:51:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Spent a couple days in a cell (4.00)
          with Allen's partner, Peter Orlofsky, in the aftermath of the 1972 Republican Convention. Allen was waiting in the hall when we were released. Even before greeting Peter, he made a beeline for me, said sternly, "Go back to school."

          Peter was the worst cellmate i've had in 137 arrests. Jails still allowed smoking in those days, so the smell was thick on the walls, but everyone was out after sharing the first couple hours, and cranky with withdrawals. Peter would periodically bellow "I quit smoking seven years ago, and I feel great."

          No-one who voted against the USAPATRIOT Act has lost an election. I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State. Or Yours.

          by ben masel on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:28:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I whiled away an afternoon in jail (none)
            with Abbie Hoffman, who was even less engaging than PO.  To be fair, Hoffman and his ego should really have been given a cell to themselves.  Also met Dr. Spock in the clink - kind of like being locked up with your irritable granddad.  But the latter was a real mensch!

            www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

            by chuckvw on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 11:27:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Wow that was one of the best diaries I've read (3.80)
    on dKos.  Kos lashing out at people who are 'anti-war' and all that was bs. I'll probably get banned for saying this, but I don't really care. go ahead and end my account. kos is trying to become a big player within the party so he has to distance himself from the "looney left". Also, why does Kos always remind us he was in the army? big f'in deal. am i supposed to be impressed with his masculinity? does it make him more of a manly man? to be honest, kos does sound kinda gay when he talks(listen, i had a gay roomate once, and im all supportive of equality and marriage etc. for gays) so i guess I see why he has to assume this "tough" exterior of denouncing the left. it makes him feel masculine and less gay. sista souljah, right?
  •  Cough... (none)
    ...my diary length "rebuttal" can be found here.
  •  Ohio (4.00)
    "john kerry barely EXISTED in the consciousness of America at the time."

    Yup, same here, but those 4 kids killed at Kent State sure had an impact.

  •  Thanks For This (4.00)
    I asked my hippie parents if they knew who John Kerry was way back in the day.

    Theya said no.  Emphatically.  I asked them if they knew who said, "How can you ask a man to be the last one to die for a mistake?"  And they said, what was that?

    The myth of John Kerry is a good one, but nothing more than a myth regenerated for those of us not there to witness the knawing and scratching of millions of disaffacted youths clamering to be heard through al the adults bashing in of their minds.

    They protested, made themselves look different, made a huge stink in protests, and little by little ate away at the war profiteers fasade.

    Just like Cindy Sheehan.  Not just hippies, not necessarily anti-war, just anti-that war, and anti-the motherfuckers who would send them to die.

    Good for them for fighting every day to end that war, and good for everyone who continues to fight to end this war.

    Whether its Kos with his misguided bullshit, or Armando who has racheted his criticism up to an amazing level of lucidity and calm, they all are necessary to end this war, but the hippies?  They're in the past.  They ended the last war.  This time it probably won't be a counter culture, just mothers countering the culture.

    But thanks for adding to the reality based community.

  •  thanks (4.00)
    for correcting the kerry revisionism. i was also there and i've kept this thought to myself, since it was in our collective interests to do so. as was mentioned upthread, VVAW was an very late bit player in the anti-war movement. there was no CSPAN, and nobody- NOBODY - saw kerry. a helpful cog inside the beltway perhaps but not having anything meaningful to do with the movement during the war or the withdrawl. the war ended not because of inside the beltway but outside of it. popular support for the war ended due to a coalition of liberals and moderates scared shitless by the prospect of anarchy here.

    did i just say violence works? did i just say the black panthers / weather underground scared enough white people shitless that they abandoned nixon? damned straight i did. try getting that bit of truth thru the corporate media filter.

    you had to be there. and you have to be honest today. i appreciate this diary, and think it should be required reading.  

    •  Have to add... (none)
      Republicans scared shitless by the prospect.

      A turning point was the 1972 Republican Convention, held in a teargas filled hall in Miami Beach. (The cops kept giving us more and more gas grenades to toss at the Convention Center's air intakes.)

      Can't remember where I read it, but supposedly that's the night Gov. Rockefeller turned against the war.

      No-one who voted against the USAPATRIOT Act has lost an election. I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State. Or Yours.

      by ben masel on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 03:34:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What was truly revisionist about Kerry (none)
      was the way he completely omitted the part of his involvement in Vietnam that had real meaning, which was his leadership of VVAW, in favor of exploiting his supposed John Wayne combat experience, which he repudiated at the time.

      "John Kerry, reporting for duty!". What a jerk.

      •  i can agree (none)
        i have no problem with kerry. he did what he could do to end the war. he "served". but literally millions of other people did as well, and hundreds if not thousands made more meaningful contributions to ending the war than kerry did. i think this is what diarist is saying, and i agree with him.

        by the way, while i think violence helped end the vietnam war, i do not think it would work today. the powers of information technology in the hands of the police state suggest to me there is no chance for armed resistance to work today. people could move around and communicate somewhat freely back then- no more.

  •  Can we all just get along?! (4.00)
    Jesus!

    Look:

    Hippies, at their best, were not only the foot soldiers in the war against the war, they were trying to change consciousness itself- so we would never again be where we now are. We can debate what went wrong, but the ideal was noble.

    Hippies, at their worst, were hedonistic leaches whose self-indulgence undermined the best efforts of the best of them.

    But hippies are part of our mix. We need them. We are them.

    If the goals of the majority of the people on this blog include ending this insane and immoral war, protecting our troops from hypocritical elitist chickenhawks, and fostering a political climate that will promote social, civil, and economic justice, personal liberty, and a healthy environment, then we need to stop this internecine feeding frenzy. We need Charles. We need Page. We need Markos. We need hippies.  

    "I won't slave
    for beggars' pay
    likewise gold and jewels
    but I would slave
    to learn a way
    to sink your Ship of Fools"
    -Robert Hunter

  •  Bashing hippies (4.00)
    Is part of the Reich Wing strategy to bring America back to the good old times of the 1800s

    Child labor, submissive wives, robber barons, serfs and aristocracy. Those were the days for all the wannabe kings of the right.

  •  Kerry didn't win (none)
    ...because you didn't work hard enough, bitch.

    I'm the plowman in the valley with my face full of mud

    by labradog on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 02:48:20 AM PDT

  •  Oh wow. (none)
    This diary is a bummer, man. So much negativity.

    What about love, man? You gotta love Mitch. Show him how beautiful love is. Positive energy! That will change the world.

    I do not have my own blog.

    by Frank on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 03:41:59 AM PDT

    •  I do not have the energy (none)
      I do not have the energy (or the time) to sit and read all the comments, but my glancing over led me to one point.
      The freepers have got to come here to see this and say to themselves "there they go, eating their own again"

      Goodness...arent we the good guys?

      The only Bush I trust is my own - I want my freaking democracy back!

      by mytribe on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 07:17:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  To me, it shows the ignorance of some of the left (4.00)
    "Divide and conquer" is not the way to build a base.

    The left has tried to cut out Christians, refusing to differentiate between Christofascists and the majority of American Christians.

    The left is working at losing the support og blacks.

    Now those who have asked to NOT be in charge are trying to cut out hippies.

    It'll be lonely when there are only 4 democrats left, but maybe they'll understand then.

  •  I Love the Smell of Revisionism In The Morning (4.00)
    Funny how we remember things... whatever the "hippie" movement was all about, most certainly opposition to the war in Vietnam took a back seat to opposition to the Draft. "Hell no, we won't go!" wasn't a protest call for the end of an unjust war, it was an entire generation of American youth standing up and yelling "You're gonna stick a gun in my hand and send me somewhere to get my ass shot off?! Fuck you, man!".

    So let's not get too mushy and sentimental about this; people are concerned about themselves first, and everyone else second, or why wasn't there rioting in the streets in '61? The war was just as much a sham then as it was 8 years later. Simple : the number of soldiers getting killed in any given period is directly proportional to the opposition of an unjust war. Between 1961 and 1965, a total of just under 2,000 American soldiers were killed. This more than doubled in 1966, and doubled again in 1967. In 1968, almost 15,000 American soldiers were killed. And these weren't volunteers, remember. This was a group of randomly chosen U.S. citizens forced to fight, and possibly die, or else face imprisonment. Notice any correlation between this and the growing "peace movement"?

    Sure, some could make the argument that an increase in the number of deaths simply brought the whole mess into sharper focus for the general public, who, with eyes newly opened, took to the streets to condemn what was essentially a brutal colonial action. Well, Iraq is pretty much the same deal, but I don't see anything remotely approaching the public dissent of the late 1960's. Why? Because at the end of the day, the war is a goddamn shame but since I don't have to go and fight it, just wake me when it's over, okay?

    And while were at it, let's not forget who grew up and gave birth to "Me Decade", shall we? Short term memory loss, I guess.

    I'm not hippie-bashing, by the way, I'm just pointing out that human nature transcends time and current events. Life is about survival and until your personal survival is threatened, you're not likely to put your ass on the line to the sort of degree that would make any measurable difference. The people in charge know this. Why is there no Draft today? Given the extreme shortfall in enlistment, you'd think it'd be at the top of BushCo's agenda. Also simple: the minute they start up the Draft, the protests escalate into the stratosphere and the war ends. As much as I admire Cindy Sheehan and the other people rallying around her, I can't help but think it can't last too long; the attention span of the American Public is microscopic and without an outrageous body count and a firing up of the Draft, it will take very little for these good people to fall off the radar.

    Anyway, for anyone who was there (i.e. the '60's) : I respect your opinions and I don't doubt for a second your recollection of events is accurate, at least from your perspective. But look at the large picture and I'm afraid what you'll find is the same thing that's been happening throughout the ages; the public at large is more than content to let their leaders get away with wholesale murder until they themselves are forced to participate and that's all there is to it.

    I maintain that it's not that the Republicans are too evil, it's that the Democrats aren't evil enough.

    by peirone on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 04:33:26 AM PDT

    •  Overgeneralization (none)
      let's not forget who grew up and gave birth to "Me Decade"

      If you are interested in specifics, the folks who were the Me Decade tended to be the moderates and conservatives who would not have gone near the antiwar movement in the 1960s.  You know George W. Bush was (and still is) about as Me Decade as one can get.

      And it included the youth of the upper middle class who were told by their parents after Kent State that they would not continue to go to college on their parents dime if they got involved in the anti-war movement.

      I doubt that many in the antiwar movement voted for Ronald Reagan, but the youth who did fell into one of the two categories above.

      So have some appreciation for folks who risked getting their head busted for their opposition to the Vietnam War.  It might not have ended the war and it might have been for less than noble reasons, but they were there and they were at risk.

      The revolution starts now--in your own back yard, in your own home town

      by TarheelDem on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 05:44:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right back at you. (none)
        Just this morning I switched off CSPAN because I was tired of the blather of some author on the book program explaining how he had become a conservative after being a 60's hippie.

        He had just gotten to the point of making clear what a "me generation" guy he was when I couldn't stand it anymore and flipped over to Bob Herbert on CSPAN2.

        Sorry I don't remember his name, didn't know I would find a reason to refer to him.  It seems awfully ironic now to come here and see your post and the one you responded to.

    •  utter bullshit (4.00)
      front to back.

      it was opposition to the war, not a selfish desire to avoid the draft. you defile a lot with your complete bullshit.

      your b.s. about the "me" generation has also been properly refuted.

    •  A 4 because I agree that (none)
      this country moves NOW, only on self interest. But I think I was a little hasty.

      But then, there were many, many people who did not have any self interest, or were not threatened themselves but were sick of saying goodbye to their friends and family or just next door neighbors and never seeing them again.  

      They also were keenly aware of what part greed and corporations were playing in their lives and the control others were exherting over them.  It was a rebellion against everyform of control and pervasive in the music and dress of the day.  Sorry, but it was not entirely due to self interest.  

      Would a draft now change hip hop to anti war and socially conscious songs instead of what they are now, would dress become totally rebellious, would there me a youth movement?  Me thinks maybe not.  The trouble now, is that there are too many benefits comeing from the Corporations and control of the powers that be.  Would we want to fight that, and give up our comforts.  

      There might be a quite a spike in interest if there was a draft, but it wouldn't reach the proportion that it did.  

      As for the ME generation, don't be belong to one now.  This country is a ME country.  What are you talking about?

    •  Mixed feelings (none)
      about your post.

      I emphatically agree with this:

      human nature transcends time and current events.

      But you're a little too categorical about the "anti-draft" vs "anti-war" motivation. Many people in the antiwar movement were too old or (like me) too young to be subject to the draft. The antiwar sentiment was genuine.

      The reason there weren't antiwar demonstrations in 1961 is obvious. US involvement was minuscule then.

    •  You write: (4.00)
      ".. whatever the "hippie" movement was all about, most certainly opposition to the war in Vietnam took a back seat to opposition to the Draft. "Hell no, we won't go!" wasn't a protest call for the end of an unjust war, it was an entire generation of American youth standing up and yelling 'You're gonna stick a gun in my hand and send me somewhere to get my ass shot off?! Fuck you, man!'."

      No.

      You are WAY off.

      These were the sons and daughters of the people who laid their lives on the line to fight what they perceived to be an enemy worth dying to oppose. An enemy that seriously threatened this country.

      Vietnam was a cautionary war. Proto-shock and awe, as in "See what we will do if you aren't nice, docile, brownish Third Worlders? We will FUCK YOU UP!!!" And the youth of America refused to be bullshitted. Had things been different...say an invasion by China of the west coast (Or even Japan) or a Russian move on Western Europe...EVERYTHING  would have been different.

      You are correct about the draft, however. Yes, it DOES take asses being held to the fire to motivate large parts of the population. Business as usual. If we could only convince people that the fire THIS time is going to be nuclear if we don't do something....a convincing that I mortally fear BushCo is at this very instant preparing to provide in Iran...we would have MULTI-millions saying "NO!!!"

      We shall see...

      Charles

  •  500+ Comments?!?!? (none)
    Honestly, people.  Love a hippie, hate a hippie, adopt a hippie--make your own choice.

    But we've got real problems to confront.  Cindy Sheehan gave us an opening and now we have to live up to her example by taking it to the next stage.   Hippie, yippie, generation zippy--we were all together in our failure to tackle the President's Iraq policy before Sheehan cracked things open for us.  And thank goodness she did.

    So...I don't care when you were born or how long you wear your hair or whether you have a revisionist or first-hand view of what happened in the 60s or 70s or 90s or whenever.  None of that matters.  If we are going to be more focused on defending our legacies or our identities than we are about generating solutions for our current predicament, well, then we're in a heap of trouble.

    Neither memory nor identity will take back this country.  We need creativity, organization and relentless hard work.  

    Let's hereby declare all members of this vast coalition to be appreciated and respected.  Gratitude to everyone!   Hands off, backs patted, dignity and pride restored.  You are all too important to be lost in this circular argument.  We have no more time to waste.  We need you all back at the table.  Everyone.  Right now.

    With that in mind, will the last person to leave this argument please turn out the light.

  •  Kerry was always an opportunist (none)
    I don't doubt Kerry's humanity and the integrity of his opposition to the war, but there was always a whiff of the opportunist about him. He appeared on the anti-war scene just as significant segments of the political elite were turning against the war. Compared to Kerry, the hippys, who opposed the war at a time when Kerry was killing Vietnamese, were selfless and idealistic.

    "Men use thought only to justify their wrongdoing, and employ speech only to conceal their thoughts." Voltaire

    by chimpwatch on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 06:37:45 AM PDT

  •  Canada (none)
    in the 1960's:  American kids relocating up here and our Prime Minister (Trudeau) on Nixon's enemy list for his anti-war leanings. It was a great time to be alive - and the youth movement/peace movement was the fuel which ran the engine.

    Canada - where a pack of smokes is ten bucks and a heart transplant is free.

    by dpc on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 06:43:30 AM PDT

  •  I applaud the hippie message... (none)
    peace, love, and all that. But, the fact of the matter is, hippies really screwed the world as far as style is concerned. Look at the pictures of the way people dressed in the early sixties. And look at the way they dress now. The hippies are to blame for a lot of that.

    "Lies, lies, lies, ye-ah... they're going to get you." --The Thompson Twins

    by modchick65 on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 07:25:19 AM PDT

    •  i don't like these kinds of comments (none)
      that seek to trivialize things. calling it "snark" ex post does not diminish the unproductive nature of it. i'm not going to downrate it, though, because there are too many immature jerks around for ratings wars.
      •  It wasn't meant as a snarky comment. (none)
        It's just my own, personal view. Why is it worthy of a downrate? Because you don't agree with it? Because you think I'm being snarky?

        The fact of the matter is, people did used to dress nicer. And with that, there was a larger sense of propriety and politesse to the way one conducted onself in society. The hippies took that away, and I think that's a legitimate remark.

        "Lies, lies, lies, ye-ah... they're going to get you." --The Thompson Twins

        by modchick65 on Mon Aug 29, 2005 at 04:04:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Indeed! Screw Kos too and the horse he rode in on (none)
    As another "hippie" who was alive and protesting my ass off at the time and still am, I'm tired of this "hippie" and counterculture meme.  We wouldn't have been any more listened to at the time if we had  short hair and wore a coat and tie, and what's more, that would have just identified us with the two dozen Young Republicans and campus conservatives who were around at the time (at least on the coasts).

    Also, what you chickens*hit democrats don't get is that the "hippie" thing was just an excuse to use drug prohibition to imprison and silence liberal "enemies" of Nixon.  It's just like staying mum on Iraq for mainstream dems.  If dems had any balls and wanted to be mainstream, they'd consider ending drug prohibition as a legitimate political issue, rather than trying to run away from the "hippie" slag.  I read this site, but see that most of you mainstream liberal types don't get the connection at all between drug prohibition and the political suppression of progressives.

    Kos: you speak for a lot fewer people than you think you do.  Perhaps you ought to go back to being a non-celebrity and find a real job other than blogging pundit.

  •  Aren't you missing something? (none)
    Yes, hippies arguably did bring about the end of the Vietnam War.  But a much larger political force was unleashed by the BACKLASH against hippies.

    People disliked the protesters intensely, even though they were right, perhaps because they were right.  A fatal wedge was introduced between economic and social liberalism that has not faded to this day, and the consequence has been 37 years (and counting) of conservative dominance.

    Ronald Reagan become governor of California running against Berkeley protesters.  Richard Nixon did the same presidentially.  Never mind that they ran against a caricature rather than the real thing -- it WORKED, and continues to work.  And thirty-six years later, George W. Bush could repeat Nixon's 1968 campaign - and succeed.

  •  When you aren't old enough to........... (none)
    have a history, you have no knowledge only opinion. Have the Republicans taught you nothing?  Don't paint with such a wide brush - particularly when you don't know what you are talking about.   Hippies were in the process of really changing the culture in this country.  The message on the war was being heard (they ended the GD draft - say thank you), pot was on the way to being legal, and "make love not war" was getting heard and becomming universal.  This generation was so huge that it had a ton of influence.  So much influence that even the wanna bees (I call them the polyester hippies) tried to copy the culture.  Hair and beard was easy - philosphy another thing. IT WAS THE 70's and the COPY CAT,polyester crowd THAT SPIT ON THE TROOPS and eventually became Republicans and Reagan Democrats.  If JFK had not been asassinated, you wouldn't recognize this place today.   We would be so much closer to Europe in so many ways instead of like the fricken south.  This is why the Falwells and Coulters hate the "liberal" culture so much.  It was a huge force that almost changed the world, and they were scared shitless.
  •  Just adding on here... (none)
    ...this diary is pretty good. Although I think Kerry deserves more credit than you give him, I also believe Kos was idiotically wrong to say what he said. Maybe he'll prove to be enough of an adult to admit his gross error, but I doubt it - he wasn't able to apologize to the women he insulted either.

    In any case, hippie-bashing is stupid and, in my opinion, grounds for troll-rating.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 10:10:35 AM PDT

  •  Now that I have participated in (none)
    going after kos's statment, will someone please link the original offending post for me. Thanks
  •  $.02 (none)
    Since you were there, you will remember that Martin Luther King also came out against the war. You did not have to be a hippie to be against the war, and I will assume that Americans eventually turned against the war because too many people were dying for not enough positive outcome. As I hear from the voices of a thousand right-wing bloggers, all they had to do was turn on their TV to get this information.
    I have difficulty agreeing with most of lestatdelc's posts.
    As part of this controversy, my husband defined "hippie" as "someone who protests against the society as illegitimate while still benefiting from it". He observed that if the hippies did not want to go, most people who enlisted in the Navy and Air Force never went, and designating oneself as a conscientious objector within the service would have been very powerful. B"H the war ended before he could be drafted.

    "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, who am I? And if not now, when?" (Hillel was a liberal)

    by 4jkb4ia on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 10:48:44 AM PDT

    •  "Your husband" writes: (4.00)
      "...my husband defined 'hippie' as 'someone who protests against the society as illegitimate while still benefiting from it'."

      Bullshit.

      Most of the people who are now being painted as "hippies" WITHDREW from the society that they perceived as sick...just as far away from it as they could get and still have enough shelter and food to survive. BARELY survive, in many cases.

      Bullshit.

      Certainly there were parasites. But parasitism was not mainstream.

      Not by ANY means.

      More revisionist bullshit history.

      Charles

      •  I believe you (none)
        Certainly there were hippies who completely dropped out and moved to rural America.

        "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, who am I? And if not now, when?" (Hillel was a liberal)

        by 4jkb4ia on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 02:43:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This is not my definition (none)
        You would have to make "hippies" the same as "campus radicals" for that. The legacy of the hippies is not that of the campus radicals. It is more of a legacy of being organic and not going on power trips.

        "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, who am I? And if not now, when?" (Hillel was a liberal)

        by 4jkb4ia on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 02:51:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  like what? (none)
      What do you not agree with?

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

      by Lestatdelc on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 01:33:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You brought back a lot of memories. (none)

    I was glued to the tv while the `hippies' were being clubbed by Daley's cops. I will never forget the chant, "The whole world is watching!"
    One day I was driving to Boston from Newport in a 1962 TR3 in 1969 and my long hair was blowing in the wind. A station wagon passed me with children in the back. As they passed they were all looking at me, a long haired hippie, so I gave them the peace sign. The children smiled and signed me back. Then a parent turned around and said something and the children stopped smiling and faced the other way except for one. He held up his hand so the others could not see and gave me the peace sign. I smiled and waved.
    I was there and we made a difference.
    And you are right, Kerry who?
    Right on man!
    Peace!!!!
  •  Charles (none)
    Holy crap!!!  Well done...yep, very well done!!!
  •  Divided then, divided now (none)
    Maybe the only thing that everybody will agree with was the music. We protested the war, politics, draft, even the quality of the weed.I spent my time in the Army stoned and listening to CCR and when I came back joined the protesters.The last two US presidents came from that era. One good and intelligent democrat, the other a moron and a mother** republican. Now, be a good hippie, pick your side and let the hippie issue be about PEACE AND FREE LOVE.
  •  nothing makes the right happier than (none)
    redefining the youth movements of the sixties as less than they were.

    The truth is, they were scared shitless of my parents and thier friends.  I realized that when I saw footage of the fat white 40+ DJs speaking into microphones, encouraging kids to bring down thier Beatles records for the bonfire.  You can hear the desperation in thier voices.

    When we play by thier rules - politics - they win because they've long since rigged the game.  But when we make up a whole new game- like in the sixties when art and music combined with action and activism and it all swirled together into a scene that had real societal force, even without central leadership...

    That put's the kind of fear in them that made the Romans crucify Jesus Christ.  Seriously.

  •  Thanks for the great post, brother. (none)
    I have often contemplated the mystery of why the conservatives are eager to take our country back to the 1950's, when the 1950's brought us the 60's they hate so passionately.
  •  Standing up for peace and sanity (none)
    Kerry arrived (good for him!) -- most hippies were already there.  Our biggest problem was figuring out what to do at our party while waiting for the rest of society to arrive.  ;-)

    We were friggin' teenagers, for gods' sake! With  the typical component of irresponsibility, but an incredible amount of maturity about important things.  And we showed enough wisdom to outshine our elders and start the snowball rolling to stop an insane war.  I hope another generation of such teens comes along -- and soon!

    I was 19 years old in 1969, and a conscientious objector.  The most passionate words I've ever written were in my CO application to my draft board that year.  They rejected me, but I was still safely a college student then.

    I mailed back my 2-S student deferment card to the draft board, rejecting that protected status.  I believed I had to take at least some of the equivalent risks to a soldier fighting -- or resisiting -- in Vietnam, so I could look my brothers in the eye when they came home.  The penalty at that time was a 5-year jail term.

    They sent me a 1-A.  I mailed them back its ashes. Luckily for me, I never heard from them again.  Martyrdom was not tops on my list of life directions, a year after the MLK and RFK assassinations, but it was ahead of killing villagers in Vietnam.

    I served; I did my part.  And I can face those soldiers now with pride, and sympathy.

    I am a student of military history, enough to know that only a tiny percent of wars are necessary to the people forced to fight them.  The rest are, uh, "wars of choice."

    Denigrating those who stood EARLIEST againt such wars is the "DLC" view of our political life, and is going to help make the USA a very depressing place in which to live out this new century...

    (Ah -- they just played my song, America's "Ventura Highway" on this hotel's lobby audio system -- someone is smiling upon us, friends!)

    If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

    by HenryDavid on Sun Aug 28, 2005 at 12:49:58 PM PDT

  •  Cripes!! It took me 3 hours to read this thread! (none)
    Where was Evelyn Wood in the 60's?

    Born in '63, I missed it all, though I was a pretty committed Deadhead so I certainly had time to dream of the softer aspects of hippie-dom, and truly loved the music and the message, as I took it to be.  (I like your handle, aoxomoxoa.)

    I dropped 4's on lots of comments in this thread, not necessarily because I "agreed" with them, but because I liked them for some reason or another.  We all have something valuable to add, as long as we keep in the spirit of "adding something" and not having to diminish others.

    To me this thread shows the importance of mutual respect, especially among those who have bigger fish to fry right now than pointing fingers or taking credit.  

    It also shows, depite all our internal disagreements and takes on what is and what was, this is a great country.  One that can accomodate the diversity of opinion here.  There are evil forces out there, and there are brilliantly positive ones too.  

    I give Charles credit for the reminder about that latter part.

  •  If John Kerry was featured in the Nixon tapes (none)
    then he damn well had an impact.

    Did Nixon obsess about anyone ELSE specifically in the anti-war movement?

    Kerry was to Nixon what Cindy Sheehan is to Bush.

    "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

    by Kerrycrat on Mon Aug 29, 2005 at 01:30:33 PM PDT

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