Daily Kos

In Defense of Frivolous Law Suits

Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 11:56:40 AM PDT

Tort "reform" is all the rage these days. Everywhere I turn, I see editorials, commentators, newscasters (unfortunately), and politicians towing the same line: the legal system in this country has run amok, juries are out of control! Jury damages have to be capped, limited, brought back to earth! Of course, this is all the work of greedy trial lawyers and their co-horts in the Democratic Party. Of course they don't want tort reform--that's how they all got rich!!!!

Well, I'm a trial lawyer, too, and I'm not rich. I'm a public interest lawyer, and people would be shocked at how little I make. Of course, the posterchild for the tort reform movement is (all together now) the McDonald's coffee case. While almost everyone knows about the case, too few people know the actual facts of the case. So, by way of example, here's my case against tort reform.

The Real Story of the McDonald's Coffee Case (or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Litigation) below the fold.

In 1992, 79-year old Stella Liebeck was riding in a car driven by her grandson. After purchasing a cup of coffee at McDonald's, they pulled over and stopped the car. Liebeck tried to hold the cup securely between her knees while removing the lid. However, the cup tipped over, pouring scalding hot coffee onto her. The sweatpants she was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin. She received third-degree burns over 16 percent of her body, necessitating hospitalization for eight days, whirlpool treatment for debridement of her wounds, skin grafting, scarring, and disability for more than two years. Despite her serious injuries, McDonald's refused to settle the case, even though Liebeck only sought $20,000 in damages. After trial, a jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages -- reduced to $160,000 because the jury found her 20 percent at fault -- and $2.7 million in punitive damages for McDonald's callous conduct.

That's the part of the story the general public heard. Here's what the jury heard that tort reform proponents don't want the public to know about:

McDonalds said during discovery that, based on a consultant's advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. Coffee at that temperature, if spilled, causes third-degree burns (the skin is burned away down to the muscle/fatty-tissue layer) in two to seven seconds. Third-degree burns do not heal without skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability of the victim for many months, and in some cases, years. McDonald's admitted that it had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees. Moreover, the Shriner's Burn Institute in Cincinnati had published warnings to the franchise food industry that its members were unnecessarily causing serious scald burns by serving beverages above 130 degrees Fahrenheit.

From 1982 to 1992, McDonald's coffee burned more than 700 people, many receiving severe burns to the genital area, perineum, inner thighs, and buttocks. Not only men and women, but also children and infants, have been burned by McDonald's scalding hot coffee, in some instances due to inadvertent spillage by McDonald's employees. At least one woman had coffee dropped in her lap through the service window, causing third-degree burns to her inner thighs and other sensitive areas, which resulted in disability for years.

McDonald's admitted that it had known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years -- the risk was brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits, to no avail. McDonald's admitted that it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not.

McDonald's witnesses testified that it did not intend to turn down the heat -- As one witness put it: "No, there is no current plan to change the procedure that we're using in that regard right now;"

The chairman of the department of mechanical engineering and bio-mechanical engineering at the University of Texas testified that this risk of harm is unacceptable, as did a widely recognized expert on burns, the editor in chief of the leading scholarly publication in the specialty, the Journal of Burn Care and Rehabilitation.

McDonald's admitted that its coffee was "not fit for consumption" when sold because it caused severe scalds if spilled or drunk.

Liebeck's treating physician testified that her injury was one of the worst scald burns he had ever seen.

In the end, the $2.7 million that the jury awarded Liebeck was the equivalent of two days' worth of coffee revenue for McDonald's.

An invesitgation following the verdict found that the termperature of coffee at the ocal Albuquerque McDonalds had dropped to 158 degrees fahrenheit.

The True Story of the Coffee Case

Sometimes (often, in fact) lawsuits are not about money. They are about deterants--and about making people whole. Rather than just looking at the amount of the jury's verdict--$200K plus $2.7 million--we need to look at the verdict the way the jury intended it. $200k to make the victim whole again--pain and suffering plus damages plus her medical expenses (past and future). The $2.7 million is a different animal altogether. The jury was charged with setting a punitive damage amount that would serve to deter McDonald's for  conduct that the jury found "callous" and unreasonable. What amount would be large enough to deter a corporate giant like McDonald's? Would $100k, Shrub's favorite number for tort reform, really have been enough? Anyone who has ever been to law school is aware of the "smoking memo" in the Ford Pinto case, where Ford determined that it was cheaper just to pay damages to the victims of the Pinto fires than it was to actually fix the cars and make them safe.

Besides, the current "crisis" in the medical field is an overblown creation of the right and the insurance companies lobbying it. From the Common Sense Foundation in NC:

The tort reform movement has caught fire around the country, fueled by panicked claims of doctors leaving most states in huge numbers. According to tort reform advocates, the reason for the insurance crisis is runaway jury awards in medical malpractice cases. The theory is that these supposedly frivolous lawsuits are driving everyone's premium costs way, way up. But increasingly, states that tackle the tort reform issue are finding that there's nothing to these claims of catastrophe. Last month in Florida, the state Senate Judiciary Committee held extraordinary hearings in which it compelled top-level representatives of the insurance industry and medical profession to testify under oath about the "crisis" in Florida. Under penalty of perjury, these experts admitted that doctors are not leaving the state; frivolous lawsuits are not increasing; and the state's primary medical malpractice insurer is making big profits. And a study published this year by a University of Buffalo professor showed that caps on non-economic damages in medical malpractice lawsuits have an unfair impact on women and the elderly, since those groups are likely to receive smaller amounts in compensation for economic losses than would working-age men. There are two tragedies unfolding here: one is that practitioners of one of society's most noble professions are being largely co-opted by huge corporate interests that want the government to guarantee their profit margins through "reform" legislation. The other is that tort reform would severely limit the right of injured parties to have their day in court. Right now the evidence is strongly in favor of those who oppose caps on non-economic damages in medical malpractice lawsuits. If the N.C. Senate carefully examines that evidence, maybe it will go a step further and figure out just what it is that is driving up rates for malpractice insurance here. Maybe they'll look at the insurance companies' financial reports to see if they're price-gouging to make up for depressed investment income, for example. Or maybe they'll examine how the medical profession disciplines doctors who have multiple malpractice claims filed against them.
Common Sense Foundation The sad fact of life is that corporations more often than not make decision based on the bottom line, not basic human decency or morality. Doctor's sometimes make mistakes that damages people for life. Capping victim's damages to what amounts to pocket change for a large corporation is only one more step to making corporations completely immune from the damage they sometimes cause in consumers' lives. *PLEASE IGNORE THE FOLLOWING POLL. THE FORMATTING GOT ALL MESSED UP AND IT WON'T LET ME DELETE IT*
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Tort "Reform"

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  •  The face of ATRA (none / 1)

    The presnit has made doctors the face of his "junk lawsuit" crisis.  Oh yeah, asbestos too, but then who would trade their legal rights for more of Dick Cheney's Halliburton?

    Let's take a look at those "grass roots" of the American Tort Reform Association [a.k.a. Grover Norquist's wet dream]:

    Anheuser-Busch Companies
    Bayer Pharmaceuticals Corporation
    Boeing Company, The
    CSX Transportation
    Conoco Inc.
    Dow Chemical Company, The
    Eli Lilly and Company
    ExxonMobil Corporation
    Ford Motor Company
    General Electric Company
    General Motors Corporation
    Georgia-Pacific Corporation
    Glaxo-Wellcome
    Great American Insurance Companies
    Liberty Mutual Insurance Company
    Microsoft Corporation
    National Association of Home Builders
    Nationwide Insurance Companies
    New York Life Insurance
    Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, The
    Pfizer, Inc.
    Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA)
    Physicians Insurers Association of America (PIAA)
    PriceWaterhouseCoopers LLP
    Property Casualty Insurers Association of America
    Prudential Insurance Company of America
    Shell Oil Company
    State Farm Insurance Companies
    TRW Inc.
    Zurich Financial Services Group

    Notice anything interesting about about this collection of civic minded folks?

  •  sorry but no (none / 1)

    While the case you pointed out was in fact a lawsuit that resulted in positive gains in the form of a "deterant"...the issue of tort reform is not about one anecodotal story nor about your compensation as a public interest lawyer.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61927-2005Jan9.html?sub=AR

    The system is severely and fundamentally flawed (skewed towards allocating the moneys toward lawyers, insurers, etc.), and anyone with a basic understanding of economics can see that.

    Just look at the healthcare industry, you have doctors who have to take out gigantic insurance policies just to make sure that they stay in business.  Why?  Lawsuits, much of which goes towards "pain and suffering."

    Sorry but an anecdote does not a stance make, this is a huge issue that needs fixing immediately.

    •  so... (none / 0)

      Sorry but an anecdote does not a stance make, this is a huge issue that needs fixing immediately.

      So how about a little fact to back that up?

      You have made some pretty big assertions including "The system is severely and fundamentally flawed (skewed towards allocating the moneys toward lawyers, insurers, etc.), and anyone with a basic understanding of economics can see that." without a single fact or source.

      •  so... (none / 0)

        Click the link.

        It breaks down the costs of our current system.

        •  It breaks down the costs (none / 0)

          based on thin, inflated, partisant data.

          Regardless, it does not break down the benefits!  Aren't safer products worth something?  Shouldn't injured people be made whole again?

          Further, the whole tort reform argument keeps getting interwoven with health-care costs.  The problem is not med mal lawsuits, but the small percentage of doctors who are responsible for a large percentage of them.

        •  how about (none / 1)

          insurance companies profit margins? that's what have gone through the roof.
        •  I read it and (4.00 / 4)

          those weren't facts, they were an insurance industry polemic.  First, in an attempt to get the amount plaintiffs get to below 50%, the insurance industry consulting firm included all insurer's administrative costs, 21% of the total.  Without that particular bit of fraud, the plaintiffs' numbers go from 46% to 58%.  

          The commentary then goes on to suggest that there shouldn't be awards for pain and suffering, since the tort system is really an insurance system.  Of course, there is no basis for the underlying presumption, and no discussion at all about what "pain and suffering" really mean.  As for the insurance analogy, he doesn't even try to defend it, for it is utterly indefensible.  After all, if it is "insurance," isn't it insurance for ALL your injuries, not just what it costs to repair, to the extent possible, damages?  Remember, MANY people injured are not repairable, and suffer the rest of their lives.  The discussion on economic damages is equally vapid, claiming only that different claims get different awards.

          The final conclusion, that the unpredictability of the tort system "undermines the potentially salutary effect on corporate behavior" because companies won't reach rational decisions to make their products safer is logic Humpty Dumpty would be proud of.  Just read the Pinto memo and you know it is the unpredictability that makes the system WORK.  If Ford could estimate exactly what the costs would be, they can decide on a profit basis whether it's okay to immolate their customers.

          Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Two Days per Bottle.

          by dhonig on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 12:35:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Uh-huh (none / 0)

          Did you read the part that says "Tillinghast's clients are mainly insurers, which are at loggerheads with the trial bar, so you may mistrust its data."

          It does not break down the costs of our current system, anymore than Shrub's economic summit broke down the "challanges" of this fine-ass robust economy we find ourselves facing.  And on this, you base your assertions?

          •  Tillinghast's cost data (none / 0)

            They include the overhead costs of insurance companies, such as the huge salary paid to Maurice "Hank" Greenberg of AIG.

            They also count payouts for fender-benders, most of which do not generate lawsuits.

            John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

            by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 12:42:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Whoa (4.00 / 2)

      Hey--I never said it was about my compensation as a public interest lawyer. My point was that I'm sick of hearing dispersions cast on all "trial lawyers," when in fact trial lawyers encompasses a whole lot of us--from State's Attorneys to Malpractice Defense Attorneys--most of whom are not rich.

      Second, I didn't say or imply that one anecdote refutes the whole argument--but I'm sick of hearing people refer to that case every time they talk about tort reform--when that's the WRONG case to use as an example of out of control jury verdicts.

      Finally, there are many many other ways in which frivolous lawsuits could be dealt with without capping punitive damages. One that is working successfully in some counties is having joint panels of doctos and experience lawyers "certify" a medical malpractice case before it can be filed, thus weeding out cases without merit. Do you really think that $100,000 is sufficient to compensate people who have been disabled for life or who have lost a child at the hands of a negligent doctor?

      My husband used to practice medical malpractice law (defense side), and no one is more familiar or aggravated by frivilous lawsuits than he is. But the fact is that the reason medical malpractice premiums keep going up is a) because the insurance industry is allowed to charge whatever it wants, and b) the insurance industry keeps insuring bad doctors. I know of doctors that get sued on a regular basis, by all kinds of client with legitimate claims, yet they keep getting insurance, and all the other doctors in their group wind up paying the price. I don't know of any other field where people would keep getting insured when they get sued left and right by their clients. I sure wouldn't be able to get legal malpractice insurance if I got sued that much.

      I agree that there needs to be something done, but capping punitive and compensatory damages is NOT the way to go.

      •  well... (none / 0)

        Well you did title it "In defense of frivolous lawsuits" so I (wrongly) assumed you thought the tort system was sufficient as is...sorry if I was a bit vitriolic, but the system right now pisses me off quite a bit.

        I disagree, however, that capping punitive and compensatory isn't the way to go.  And I think you kind of made my point, "do you really think $100,000 is sufficient to compensate people who have been disabled for life?"  OK, what is?  A. they will be compensated economically for lost wages for their entire future,  and B. how is ANYONE supposed to determine a price for "pain", let alone a jury who most likely know nothing about the victim?

        There has to be a cap (whatever it may be), because it is a completely arbitrary system.  A woman who loses a son at age 1 might get eight times as much as a woman who loses a son at age 3 just because she can cry more, the baby pictures are cuter, juries like newborns more, the lawyer is better, etc.  Or a woman with no access to legal representation might get nothing because she has no resources.  There needs to be a limitation, because there is no continuity or fairness between events.  

        Plus, on top of that, our legal system is a filter for gaining compensation for any wrongdoing, and that system is so flawed, it just piles on to the inequities inherent in my examples.  The lawyers get a huge chunk of that "pain" pie.  How do you justify those discrepancies, in a legal sense?

        It's going to take a few bills to make a coherent system....I think capping is but one step in a very long process of correcting this garbage heap.

        •  What price for manhood? (none / 0)

          What "lost wages" does a 1 year old or a 3 year old have?  How about women who stay home with their children?  How about this guy?

          A man in Texas had his penis and testicles removed - for no reason - just plain medical error. Under your plan, this would just get the cost of his medical bills.  He gets a free penis and testicle removal. Is that a square deal to you?  Ready to sign on for that bargain?  

          Now, the Texas man is retired, and even if he weren't, he can work without a penis and testicles.  Just pay his medical bills and we're good to go?

        •  If we follow your logic ... (none / 1)

          ... because the entire criminal system is arbitrary because its results are also dependent on having resources to enable access to legal representation, than all sentances for all crimes, regardless of degree, should be capped.

          The tort system as it is now, by paying lawyers based on a percentage of winnings, allows poor plaintiffs with good cases access to good legal representation.

          Your solution would strip poor people of yet another right.

        •  Well (4.00 / 2)

          I wanted to title it "In Defense of 'Frivolous' Lawsuits", but then the title would have come out all screwey with all those quote marks.

          If you cap compensatory damages at $100k, what does that do for people who are disabled for life at age 18 and need 24 hour care until they die at 70? $100k isn't nearly enough to compensate for that kind of care.

          I'm just curious as to how much contact you've had with the system. Like I said, my husband used to do medical malpractice law, and at times I would get pissed off with him for not going to trial on a claim that I thought was stupid (that's another huge problem--clients that would rather pay out $$$ than go to trial on cases they should win because it takes too much time and effort), but all in all, I think the system works pretty well. I think the media and the right has done a fabulous job of making people think that the whole thing is a mess and that doctors are being bankrupted right and left--when I don't think that's the case at all. Like I said, not that I don't think medical malpractice premiums are a problem--but I lay that at the feet of the insurance industry. (trying to find some dating on soaring insurance company profit margins)

          And actually, pain and suffering damages aren't necessarily a crapshoot. Often times, juries come up with some pretty creative ways of compensating people. "Per diem" arguments are not proper in IL, but I know of one jury that gave the victim of sexual abuse $50 for every nightmare, $100 for every bad day, and $10,000 for every episode of molestation. You can argue that that's stupid, and maybe you're right, but I think it just goes to show how much thought juries actually put into damage awards. You may think that they just pull numbers out of the air, but I don't think so.

          As for how much would be enough of a punitive damamges? In some of the cases I've seen, enough so that an insurance company would think twice before insuring some of these doctors again. Again, for me, it's all about deterrance and weeding the bad apples out of the system.

      •  My wife is a physician (none / 0)

        she can't afford to start a private practice because of the high cost of malpractice insurance.  But I agree, capping the awards is insane.  I've read many medical magazines which exist to help physicians avoid losing malpractice suits.  Obviously, the best way is to avoid a bad outcome.  But some of these cases are truly heartbreaking.  Sometimes, the physicians are not at fault.  But when they are, the doctor's insurance needs to pay a reasonable settlement.  And in many cases, that's not nearly as low as $100000.

        The real problem in our medical system is elsewhere.    This is not where the costs are increasing.  However, to an individual doctor, malpractice premiums are a significant issue.  There are plenty of good docs that are paying far too much of their income for insurance.  

        The real problem with our malpractice system is the cases where a bad outcome is inevitable, such as many heart attacks, and the patient's lawyer finds or invents some small slip by the docotor that they can blame the patient's bad outcome on.  The worst combination is an attractive patient and a bad outcome.  For example,  obstetricians can, through no fault of their own, face the difficult combination of a bad outcome and a cute little baby.  This is a sure road to a settlement.

        So there clearly needs to be a weeding out of malpractice cases where any competent doctor could have taken the same course of treatement.  Similarly, serial offenders need to find another area of employment.  Unfortunately, I don't hold out a lot of hope for either to happen.  What doesn't need to happen is for the malpractice settlements to be capped.

  •  Hang in there, Julie (none / 0)

    I'm in the process of writing a book on tort reform for 11th and 12th graders. One of the sidebars involves the facts of the Stella Liebeck case. As Paul Harvey would say, they're going to hear "the rest of the story."

    John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 12:09:58 PM PDT

  •  Just wanted to share this (4.00 / 3)

    From the "sometimes you have to go to trial to make a point" files:

    George W. Bush. In 1999, Bush sued Enterprise Rent-A-Car over a minor fender-bender involving one of his daughters in which no one was hurt. Although his insurance would have covered the repair costs making a lawsuit unnecessary, Bush sought additional money from Enterprise, which had rented a car to someone with a suspended license. In this case, Bush seemed to understand one of the most important functions of civil lawsuits -- to deter further wrongdoing. The case settled for $2,000 to $2,500. Burger, Timothy, "Bush sued Enterprise Rent-A-Car over daughter's fender bender," Daily News, August 26, 2000; "Bush sued rental agency over fender bender," Houston Chronicle, August 26, 2000

    Center for Justice and Democracy link

  •  Great LTEs (none / 1)

    From the SeattlePi. There was a similiar letter published in the Chicago Tribune from a OB/GYN.

    If Dr. Roger Blauvelt is going to propose limiting consumer rights in favor of insurance companies and corporations, he should have his facts straight (Nov. 28 letters). He is sadly mistaken if he believes malpractice insurance rates will go down with tort reform. States with caps are still experiencing double-digit rate increases, as are the states without caps. In California, rates began trending downward only after insurance companies were forced to open their books and justify their rates. It is the stock and bond market, not claims, that dictates the insurance companies' desire to raise or lower rates.

    Doctors are being duped by the insurance companies into believing their salvation lies in destroying consumer rights with caps, immunities and special privileges for insurance and corporate interests.

    Neither are malpractice cases an instant jackpot. Juries decide eight out of 10 cases in favor of the doctor, not the claimant. The insurance companies refuse to open their books, so how can we verify that payouts are increasing? Anyway, if juries were the problem, why do doctors' attorneys uniformly ask for juries?

    Unbridled litigation? Malpractice case filings in the state of Washington have been more or less stable for years, whereas business versus business cases have soared. Malpractice cases are handled by attorneys on a contingent fee basis, no jury verdict or settlement. Then the attorney gets nothing and the claimant is left with an obligation to pay back the $50,000 to $100,000 it costs to depose and present the expert witnesses. Attorneys are not going to take cases that lack merit; if they did, they would not be in business for long.

    Doctors leaving the state? Most of the frustration suffered by doctors arises from the poor reimbursement rates for their services and the incredible paperwork burden health care insurers place upon their practices. Personally, I do not know a single doctor who has left the state solely because of malpractice insurance rates.

    So Blauvelt is prescribing the wrong cure and has misdiagnosed the problem. Tort reform will not save him or his patients.

    John C. Peick
    Bellevue

    Tort reform has not cut soaring premiums
    As a retired insurance defense attorney who used to practice in a state with tort reform, I feel compelled to respond to Roger Blauvelt, M.D. First, tort reform, such as it is (which is simply limiting what can be awarded for pain and suffering), has not curtailed soaring medical malpractice premiums anywhere. Whenever anyone starts preaching tort reform, make them give you insurance company profit margins.

    Second, rarely are statistics given regarding "frivolous suits" and "runaway awards." That's because they are a fiction. The average huge company can outpaper a frivolous plaintiff any day. And finally, tort reform of this nature makes the young, the old and the disabled worthless if they are the victim of negligence. (Picture one of your family members as a victim.) What Blauvelt wants is that which we give up for a private system versus a public one -- the right to hold the medical system accountable and, thus, the right to sue for malpractice. They want it both ways -- lucrative private medical benefits with little accountability.

    S.M. Di Paola
    Bainbridge Island

    linked text

  •  the problem with anecdotes, of course (none / 0)

    is that you can almost always find one that will make your point. I can tell you one about a case that my husband was involved with where a woman sued a store because she claimed she got food poisoning from a Snickers bar (notable because she kept the Snickers bar in a plastic container for 3 years). I imagine that there are many attempted lawsuits out there that would probably meet the bar for "frivolous" even among the most pro-plaintiff folks here. It's just common sense. And yes, there are people who try to scam the system, or see a fall on a sidewalk as a potential goldmine. Human nature and all that.

    Of course, from what I understand, the system already does a decent job of keeping those types of suits out of the courts in the first place, so the Republicans are making more hay than necessary in order to distract everyone from their real, more nefarious agenda.

    But let's get down to the nitty gritty of this. A lawsuit in and of itself isn't anything to aspire to. What is going on is that people think that a lawsuit is the best and most effective way to effect the solution they want. Which is?

    To compensate people for an injury (physical or otherwise) that happens as the direct result of the malice or negligence of another party. (not the same as everyone who suffers damage automatically being entitled to something. If you forget to shovel your own walkway and you slip and fall and break your leg, who are you going to sue?) And also to prevent malicious or negligent practices from continuing once they have been identified.

    Our society has come up with the law suit as the best way to deal with the issue? Is it? Maybe. But it's not some wonderful entity in and of itself.

    Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

    by JMS on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 12:51:56 PM PDT

    •  The real question ... (none / 1)

      What is going on is that people think that a lawsuit is the best and most effective way to effect the solution they want.

      I think the real question is: What is going on that so many people think that "people think that a lawsuit is the best and most effective way to effect the solution they want"? Do many people really think that a lawsuit is the best way, or is it just that many people have been convinced by Repub and corporate spin that everybody else is out there walking around just hoping to slip and fall on an icy sidewalk?

      "All progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Bearpaw on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:11:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, really (none / 0)

        I get accused all the time of loving lawsuits. In fact, I've had several things happen to me that I probably was justified in suing, but didn't. As a lawyer, I've seen too many of them, and don't want the hassle. And I realize that sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes bad things happen to us--that's life. We're not all entitled to be compensated for every bad thing that happens. I know many many many lawyers who share my view.
        •  I agree... (none / 0)

          I've been sent all sorts of "class-action" notices that end up getting me $4.13 four years later for dubious claims (paypal was the latest one), and am heartily sick of that fee-generating frivolity, but litigation mostly sorts itself out based on the facts of the case.  And when poor people have great facts in support of their claim, they need a good lawyer willing to take the case on risk.

          Thanks, Julie, for taking a stand on this and pointing out that it is FAR more complicated than people mostly think.

          Fuzzy only works for pets.

          by NotFuzzy on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:46:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Somebody needs to straigten paypal out (none / 1)

            lawsuit may be the only way.  When a company acts like a bank, but isn't regulated as a bank, there is a problem.  And paypal is great as long as you don't somehow get on their bad side.  But I refuse to link my paypal account to a bank account because they can empty it and there is nothing you can do except to sue.  And I can't imagine making my living with paypal, because they have been known to sieze people's balances with no recourse except to sue.  A bank can't do these things for good reason.
  •  Factcheck.org (4.00 / 2)

    has this about tort reform from last January:
    President Uses Dubious Statistics on Costs of Malpractice Lawsuits

    Two Congressional agencies dispute findings that caps on damage awards produce big savings in medical costs.
    http://www.factcheck.org/article133.html

    From the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights:
    Liability premiums did not drop after "tort reform" enacted during the insurance crisis of the 1980s. - (1994)
    http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/insurance/fs/fs002644.php3

    John McCain--not so much old as obsolete.

    by ohiolibrarian on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:00:01 PM PDT

  •  What people fail to realixe is that (4.00 / 4)

    a) The juries that give out damage awards are made up of our friends and neighbors. Regular people who don't want to see someone walk off with millions for some stupid case. So when you see a jury verdict that looks completely outrageous (i.e., the McDonald's coffee case), there's a good bet that the jury heard evidence that you aren't hearing and that they had a reason for their verdict.

    b) Personal injury lawyers usually take cases on a contingency basis--which means that they get somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% of whatever the plaintiff wins at trial. This serves two purposes: first, it allows clients who would otherwise never be able to afford an attorney secure representation; and second, it forces attorneys to make judgements on which cases they take based on their merits. It does an attorney no good to accept a frivlous action that is only going to cost him money to file and not result in any damage award. Thus, attorneys should, theoretically, accept only cases that have a shot at winning, because that's the only way they can recoup their expenses.

    Not that I haven't seen some stupid cases come down the pipe in my day, but they are usually tossed out by the court pretty quickly. I just don't see this as being a huge problem in the medical/legal community. In fact, I have several friends who are doctors, and even they've told me that the real problem is insurance companies, not lawsuits.

  •  More food for thought (none / 1)

    BushCo's so called "tort reform" will in essence create a special protected class for M.D.'s - who are generally among the wealthiest 1% of our society. What other profession has such a protection?

    There is no guarantee rates will decrease with caps in place. In fact, states with caps have not seen decreases.

    As another poster here already pointed out, medical malpractice judgments rarely result in money damages for patients. Million dollar verdicts are few and far-in-between. Businesses suing other businesses have a far bigger impact.

    Rate increases and high premiums are relative terms.  A $60,000 premium may sound like a lot of money if you yourself make $50K to $60K, but if you make $1M it's a relatively reasonable portion.

    So, much of this boils down to a perception that rates are high and a dishonest represntation as to why they're high.  Something akin to blaming the high cost of home insurance on dog bites.

    Remember Cheney's cutting remarks during the VP debate about tort reform? He made several assertions about Wyoming and New Mexico. The Billings Gazette ran an article about two days later quoting people from the Wyoming Insurance Commission and Wyoming Medical Society that refuted his mis-information.

    There are ways to improve our current system, but BushCo's plan isn't it.

    "The truth is rarely pure and never simple." The Importance of Being Earnest, Act I, Oscar Wilde, 1895

    by Cordelia Lear on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:30:37 PM PDT

  •  Bigger Problem Are Class Action Suits (none / 1)

    There are law firms that exist solely for the purpose of extorting millions of dollars out of large companies in frivolous class action suits.  Moreover, when there is a legitimate class action claim, the law firms often settle with the corporation on behalf of the class, with consumers getting some nominal compensation while the law firm collects millions of dollars in fees for their advocacy (ahem !) as part of the settlement.   Tort reform in class action suits would be a big step in preventing runaway litigation.  An aggressive Attorney General's office could advocate on behalf of consumers just as effectively and more efficiently than most of these class action firms.
  •  Right on (none / 0)

    People saying you can prove anything with one example, etc, isn't getting the point.  There is a dollar amount on a human life, and it's around $150,000.  I could link numerous articles here, but do a Yahoo search on 'monetary value of human life'.  It's in our best interest (as in individual members of the human race) to keep this value as high as possible, and this is largely what the tort system is for.  Once again I'm using an example, but it isn't the only example.  Car Company A makes a car that explodes on impact.  They find this out 6 months after it is released to market, and 10,000 of them have been purchased.  They then calculate how much it would cost to recall 10,000 cars and fix them.  Then they calculate how many people will die from the defect and times it by the accepted cost of human life to arrive at the cost of just ignoring the defect. If the cost of a recall is more, they'll just let the people die and pay the settlements.  This isn't just a 'corporations are evil' argument, this is real-life cost/benefit analysis capitalism.  Personally, I want the cost of paying settlements to be astronomically high so they recall the car, no matter what Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity tell me.  

    Now I don't think anyone is arguing that the tort system is perfect and doesn't need tweaking.  I myself was a victim of one of those pack a car full of people then slam on your breaks in front of a company car and sue them schemes (being the driver of the company car).  But I say those scams can be dealt with without making it easier for companies to endanger public safety.

    Recovering Intellectual. 12 days stupid.

    by scionkirk on Mon Jan 10, 2005 at 01:41:11 PM PDT

  •  If rewards are divided into two categories... (none / 0)

    ...one for personal injury and medical expenses and one for penalizing the company, the individual injured shouldn't recieve all of the money meant to penalize the company.  That's the problem that most people see.  "Why did this woman get 3M when the jury fealt she was entitled 200K?"  We need to find a secondary recipient for those extra funds.  Maybe a fund that could pay people who were injured previously or something, I don't know.

    I'm new to this discussion so if I'm way off base, let me know.  And if you don't mind, use that 11th and 12th grade vocubulary.

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