Daily Kos

NC's Mel Watt: reframing gay rights for voters

Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:03:57 AM PDT


Mel Watt (D-N.C.) with Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) and Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.) at recent funeral services for Shirley Chisholm, the first black woman elected to Congress (Photo By Jenny Warburg)

There was a lot of interesting discussion yesterday on DKos regarding the Democratic establishment's aversion to addressing civil rights for gays in a public forum. Here are three diaries that took this topic on:

So I went and found an interview with an actual living, breathing, elected Democrat in a Red state that knows exactly how to frame this -- on the record.

Congressman Mel Watt is now the head of the Congressional Black Caucus. He's a strong liberal representative from the 12th district (Charlotte) of the Tar Heel state. He talked about the challenge of the Democrats to reach and retain the religious (and non-religious) black vote in an excellent interview in the progressive Triangle-area newspaper  The Independent Weekly by Barbara Solow, Reframing the issues.

The GOP has spun this topic to their advantage  and run with it, using it as a battering ram to win elections at all levels, while the Dems have sputtered and floundered or just been silent.

Watt tells Dems not to avoid talking about gay issues because of their queasiness; while he's addressing this in the context of the black vote, it applies equally to voters across the board that need to be convinced that civil liberties for gays are a good thing.

First of all, we allowed Republicans to say we were advocates of gay marriage rather than framing it as a personal liberty issue or standing up and saying we don't believe in it. We ran away from that; nobody wanted to talk about it, we knew it made people uncomfortable. Instead of having our community engaged in open discussion about it and moving on to other issues or seeing how it related to pocketbook issues, we let the Republicans control the message...You can't avoid these issues. For us to bury our heads in the sand and say these issues aren't to be discussed, that's just unrealistic. We need to be talking about them in our own terms and not allowing [Republicans] to define themselves as the moral arbiters of what's right and wrong.

What Democratic leadership has failed to see, even as they try to shave votes from the political center, is that the GOP has successfully done the same thing. It's dangerous to think that black voters are blindly loyal to the Democratic party because "they have no other place to go." Yeah they do, and they can also make their displeasure known by sitting out election day. Watt warns that Dems at the national level are asleep at the wheel on this.
I think they chipped off more black voters than we would have liked for them to chip off. You don't have to chip off a lot of black voters, Republicans have found over the years. Just as the Democrats have found if they chip off some of that center, you don't have to move a lot of voters but you have to move some. We haven't been able to move those voters at the center toward the Democrats. Republicans have been successful in moving some African Americans and progressives on issues of security, religion, abortion, gay marriage. Those issues move enough people or get them wavering enough that they say, 'Well, the election is too difficult. I think I'll just stay home.'

Solow's article notes that people have always wondered how the voters of North Carolina could keep sending right-wing whack job Jesse Helms to the Senate. According to Watt (in his research while running the failed Harvey Gantt campaign to unseat Helms) there also wasn't one issue that he was a proponent of where the majority of the voters actually agreed with him. People did, however, know where he stood on any issue.


Jesse Helms, with his lesbian granddaughter (and recently elected district judge in North Carolina), Jennifer Knox Helms.

I can tell you personally, having written the former Senator, his office excelled in constituent services. Letters were responded to promptly and with specificity to your concern (even if you didn't agree with him). With Helms, he realized his power to be re-elected was gained by fulfilling his state's needs and communicating effectively personal level. That level of communication, infused with southern gentility, goes over well here, and will continue to do so.

The lesson is that reaching people on any issue, including gay rights, is more than putting out a persuasive argument -- your position needs to reach people in a context they can personally relate to. The Democratic Party has failed tremendously on this front because of its silence when it comes to gay issues. See my blog entry on the lame DNC petition that attempts to chastise Bush and the GOP on this topic.

Watt's wisdom on the semantics of using the term "civil rights" is meaningful when discussing gay rights with the religious black community. You can discuss the topic in the black community without hitting the GOP-defined third rail of religion and morality.  

I never really talk about it in civil rights terms. I talk about it in civil liberties terms, respecting the individual. It's really a personal freedom issue more than a civil rights issue. It's the ability of a person to be who he or she is.... I have cautioned gay groups not to talk about it that way to black people. Black people tend to think of that as the right to vote and have jobs and things they have fought for over the years. I don't want to get into an argument about whether this is a civil right, human right or individual right. It's, Do you believe an individual has a right to be respected?

And on winning elections, Watt brilliantly notes why it is downright stupid for the Democrats to cede the South to the GOP in a Red State/Blue state strategy, rather than engage with the enemy on difficult issues.
The unfortunate consequence of dividing red and blue states is that in many of the states that have typically gone to the Republican Party, while white Americans are in the majority, there are substantial minorities of African Americans in all of those states. Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, North Carolina--all of those states have significant minority populations. When you concede a state, you are doing two things. First, you're conceding that African Americans are not going to have any input into the presidential selection, at least at the Electoral College level. Second, you are not getting those African Americans mobilized in ways that can affect other things down the ticket--statewide races, judicial elections.

In North Carolina, we are in a red state in how we've been defined on a federal level. But if you look at what happened at the state level, we have a Democratic governor, lieutenant governor--up until recently, the whole council of state was Democratic. By conceding the race at the presidential level, we have made it easier for Republicans to win further down the ticket.

Please visit and link to the The Independent Weekly web site for the rest of this important Barbara Solow interview.

Pam's House Blend

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Permalink | 85 comments

  •  please recommend (4.00 / 19)

    I'd like to see the difficulties Democrats have addressing this topic stay in the forefront.

    Pam's House Blend

  •  Good thoughts (none / 0)

    I am impressed with Watt's decision to come forward on this. Many in the African American community have been reluctant to make comparisons between the Civil rights movement and the gay rights movement. Typically, the African American churches have resented the comparison and he is deciding to take this on and try to explain the differences while pointing out the similarities. I would like to see him work in conjunction with Menedez and the Hispanic caucus to reach into that particularly Catholic community and talk about it their.

    However, with Bush and Company backing away from DOMA now. It looks to be a a festering issue much like abortion that will continue to motivate conservatives for some time now.

    •  Comparisons (4.00 / 2)

      between the movement can be apt--at times--but can also be overplayed.  One thing that bothers me most about this is when gay rights advocates say it's the same thing (the conditions of homophobia and racism are different and have been institutionalized in different ways).  However, I also get fussy when some black folks say "gay folks haven't suffered." or try to minimize the impact of heterosexist oppression.  There seems to be an attempt to set up a hierarchy of suffering, and certain groups of people think they should be the arbiters of how much suffering is enough.

      I am a revolting homosexual!

      by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:07:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bush's "backing away" (none / 0)

      Everyone expected him to sh*t on the Dobson/Falwell crowd after using them to get elected. Now, having done a brief happy dance about this, the fact of the matter is that the Right is still perfectly positioned, with so many local legislatures under GOP wingnut control, to continue rolling out the hateful, anti-gay marriage protection amendments around the country.  Many of these will pass unless there is a herculean effort, in dollars and activism/outreach, to defeat the tidal wave of religious Right efforts.

      Pam's House Blend

      •  Did anyone really expect the GOP to back off? (none / 0)

        The bigots run the Republican Party. I think that Bush is keeping them in check until we move closer to the midterms. I also think they know that they have overreached on these issues. But they will continue to pass these laws and there's not much we can do about the actual amendments, at least once they get out of the legislatures or get on the ballot.

        At least with the Republicans you know what you get. With Democrats, you tend to get condescending remarks from PBJ who seems to think that gays are going to have an orgy on the Lincoln Memorial unless straight people stop them, or you get the "gays are going to destroy my religion" talk in this thread.

    •  Argue slippery slope (none / 0)

      If they ban gay marriage, can interracial marriage really be that far behind?

      The folks behind the effort for the former resisted the latter 40 years ago.

  •  I don't know . . . (none / 0)

    Civil liberties vs. civil rights seems a particularly ineffective way of framing it.  Right-wingers for many years have been successful at declaiming "special interests" and to talk about "gay liberties" certainly has that ring.

    Besides, the "frame" of civil liberties doesn't really get at the heart of the issue.  We aren't talking about liberties, here; they aren't extra issues that would be nice to win for gays.  They are basic rights, without which it is nearly impossible to function in society as a laborer, a citizen or a parent.

    Gay rights are civil rights in every meaningful definition of the term.  If saying that means that Blacks can't have the civil rights cookie all to themselves then . . .well, no cookie for them.  The cookie needs to be shared.

    That's a lesson I would have thought we'd learned already.

    The only rule of freedom is not to destroy freedom.

    by fuzzywolf on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:06:52 AM PDT

    •  Well, I know (none / 0)

      Civil liberties vs. civil rights seems a particularly ineffective way of framing it.  Right-wingers for many years have been successful at declaiming "special interests" and to talk about "gay liberties" certainly has that ring.

      Frame, frame, frame. Listen, brother, it's not that hard. It's a libertarian issue, plain and simple.

      "The government has no damn business telling you, me, or anyone else who we can marry and who we can't. I pay taxes, I can marry who the hell I want to. That goes for you, that goes for me, and that goes for some gay guy or some lesbian.

      "It's not my business who you marry, right? Then what the hell do I care who some gay person marries? Thay pay taxes like you and me, right? Then what's all the fuss about?

      "God damn church-ass busybodies. They'll be after your cigarettes and beer next."

      There. Is that so damn hard?

      "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

      by Ivan on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 11:52:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sorry, But Gay Rights are NOT... (none / 1)

      ...civil rights in every meaningful definition of the term.

      Let's reread what Watt said:

      Black people tend to think of that as the right to vote and have jobs and things they have fought for over the years. I don't want to get into an argument about whether this is a civil right, human right or individual right. It's, Do you believe an individual has a right to be respected?

      Having seen reams of polling data on this issue, and having heard some pretty candid discussions among African-Americans, gay and straight, and having watched and listened to the reaction of predominantly African-American audiences upon hearing each of the approaches, civil rights or civil liberties/respect, I can tell you I think Watt is 100% correct.  If the goal is to get African-Americans who may not be amenable to supporting full and equal rights and protections for GLBT folks, why should it matter if you assert that it's a matter of civil rights vs. a matter of civil liberties?  Is the goal to build alliances and engender respect for GLBT folks from people who may not currently afford them full respect, or is it to prevail in your use of terminology and impose an equivalency where technically it's not apt and politically it's likely to be counterproductive?

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by DHinMI on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 12:40:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  agreed (none / 0)

        Even nonreligious African-Americans tend to resent the battle for gay rights being equated to the battle for racial equality.  Whether or not the analogy is accurate really doesn't enter into it.  It's how they feel, and no amount of spin will change that.  Just as some Jewish people really resent using the word "holocaust" to refer to anything except what Hitler did to the Jews.    

        We should not give an inch when it comes to gay issues.  But I don't see any problem with avoiding the "civil rights" frame.

        "Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." - Kenneth Boulding, economist

        by randym77 on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 02:28:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  In a Loose Sense... (none / 0)

          ...it can be thought of as civil rights, but the right to vote, own property, attend school and the like were never denied to gay folks, at least not if they were closeted.  On the other hand, the right to will property to a partner with whom you share a domocile, the rights that go with marriage, the right to engage in sexual intercourse with a consenting adult who shares your sexual orientation, the right to visit your partner with whom you share you life when they're in the hospital; these were not denied to African-Americans, at least not in a blanket manner and certainly not in much of the country going back to the nineteenth century.  

          So, while in some ways the rights denied could be considered the denial of civil rights, I think Watt is correct that technically a case could be made that it's more properly thought of as civil liberties, and he's certainly correct that politically and rhetorically it's best to stay away from the term "civil rights" when talking with the African-American community.

          Also, FWIW, in Michigan we did bettern in opposing the "mariage amendment" with African-Americans than we did with the rest of the population.  We didn't do as well as we did in some predominately white neighborhoods where folks were highly educated, especially if they were heavily Jewish, but overall, African-Americans voted more heavily against the "marriage amendment" than did whites, even in some areas like the Saginaw Valley and parts of the Upper Peninsula that are fairly good areas for Democrats.  In fact, the one thing where I may disagree with Watt is his suggestion that the issue of same-sex marriage hurt African-American performance for Kerry and Democrats.  We had a same-sex marriage ban on the ballot here in Michigan, and we had some prominent black pastors in Detroit coming out (so to speak) in favor of the ban, while the Governor and John Conyers and several members of the City Council opposed the ban.  Everyone tended to associate Bush with an anti-gay marriage position and Kerry with a position in favor of, if not exactly same-sex marriage, then something like it.  

          The result?  In Detroit, a city whose population is over 80% African-American, is about 5% Latino, and with probably 2-4% of the rest being Arab, Kerry pulled 93% of the vote.  

          I think if there's a problem, it's not that gay marriage was on the ballot, it's that in places where it either wasn't on the ballot or was but wasn't contested--which leaves just about everywhere except MI, OH and OR--the dialogue never reached people, and fear ruled.  But where the discussion took place--and to a degree, it did in Michigan--the results were better than most expected, and Kerry seems not to have been hurt at all.

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by DHinMI on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 02:59:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There is a flaw in the analysis (none / 1)

            Is someone who discriminates against a Jew denying their civil rights? The reason I ask  this is that OConnor first talked about this in her analysis of these isssues (she came to the wrong conclusion- that Jews are different as a class than gays), but the issue is relevant. Afterall, Jews are Jewish because of their cultural and religios beliefs, but, more importantly w hat let's us know someone is Jewish is their actions. If we deny the right to marriage to Jews or the right to all the civil rights in our society would anyone be arguing that we are denying their civil rights just because they can hide the fact they are Jewish?

            It's a simple game of logic that forces the issues into stark terms. If you answer yes to the question that inaction is not the determinant of a civil right (ie, being in the closet or not) anymore so than it is for Judaism, then you are faced with the reality behind the choice. In law, a lot of times in the past, when they were dealing with race, they often had to go through similar contortions to justify discrimination. Indeed, look at post Civil War era decisions and Dred Scott. The contortions in the law are stark, and instructive as to how they managed to manipulate the definition of the class for which the rights were being sought.

            What we are really talking about here is people's discomfort with gay people, and that's it. It's not that deep in terms of it being civil rights v. civil liberties. The only way you can take offense at another group saying that it is about their civil rights is that you have a problem with the group or class in question. Look at women, and look at the rights of disabled, almost every group used the language and model of the civil rights era to obtain a resonance and talk in the idiom of which our society has worked for 40 years. So, why are gays different other than the discomfort with the group of which the majority is talking?

            You can call it civil liberties- or you can call it civil rights, but, I think the real issue will not be addressed by this alone. Do I have an easy anser here- no. This is one of those things that is not going to happen over night. It will require a concerted effort to concistly change the frame of the debate. Indeed, changing from the hot button name of civil rights to liberties maybe a way to get some people to the table. But, I don't think it will be enough. It's just the start. None of this should be read as totally disagreeing with you. I am trying to capture the totality of what is really be talked about in someway.

            •  I disagree (none / 0)

              Many Jews get very upset when the term "holocaust" is used for anything other than the WWII death camps.  IMO, it doesn't mean that, say, Rwanda was not a horrible tragedy.  But they feel their travails are unique, rightly or wrongly, and want the language to reflect that.

              I don't deny that a lot of people are uncomfortable with gays, but I don't think that's the real issue here.  I think many African-Americans dislike their struggles being compared to any others.  Fairly or not, they feel their situation is unique, not to be lumped in with others.  

              What it boils down to is that everyone tends to think their problems are the worst.  I'm a female of color, and often feel torn.  Men of color tell me that women's rights shouldn't be an issue any more.  ("The battle of the sexes is over.  The women won.")  White women, OTOH, tell me that racial prejudice is no longer an issue, it's sexism that's the problem.  

              You can't understand someone unless you have walked two moons in their moccasins...but most people, I fear, are completely incapable of that.

              "Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." - Kenneth Boulding, economist

              by randym77 on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 07:28:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Out victiming each other (none / 0)

                At some point, which is the point of my post, you have to call a duck, a duck. The fact that some Jews have a problem with other people who were victims of holocaust using the term "holocast" doesn't mean those people other than Jews didn't go through a holocaust. The Jews who say they didn't a) are just wrong and b) I got to wonder whether they learned anything from what they went through.  

                And, please don't tell me the "offense" here is not because people have a problem with gays. First, off that is just plain insulting to gay people to tell them that this is anything but the fact that they are gay.  It is the same anything-but-theory that I hear as a black guy. There is always some reason other than the obvious one.

                The same holds true here- it's insulting to hear that this isn't about homophobia when it is precisely that issue that is defining the debate. If your argument had any validity it would have been used the first time other groups used the civil rights movement. Was it used for women? No. The fact is, it wasn't. Was it used for latinos? What about the disabled? Hell, what about Jews who used it for that purpose also. A possibilyt doesn't make it probable or likely. Let's deal i likelihoods rather than what we want people to be. The fact is in all these cases it wasn't an issue as much as it is now.  Did I hear a little complaining. Yeah, I did. Is it to this level- no, it wasn't. So, don't insult people by saying this isn't about the fact that they are gay. And, if it's about them being gay, and they know the right of gays are being limited- that's homophobia- no matter how you spin it. Just like no one can spin racism to make it about well "I am just not comfortable with Blacks" when it comes to looking for say a job or being treated like an employee rather than as someone intruding in the workplace.

                Does this mean we haven't all faced prejudice? No. Does this mean one prejudice is worse than another? No, this is equally moronic commentary. One person's pain doesn't go away by another person's pain. What it does mean is that an honest discussion requires honesty about what is motivating this. Intellectualizing it to death- pretending people aren't motivated  by what they are motivated by is dangerous to dealing with problems. Hence, by the way, the reason why 40 years later, on the eve of MLK's b-day, we are still addressing issues of denial of black voting rights because everyone just wants to sweep it under the rug and say its anything but race that is driving the issue.

                •  IME... (none / 0)

                  That argument was used for women's rights.  Heck, you still hear it.  Some African-American athlete says something abusive about women, then the op-eds appear, wondering how a black guy can be so unsympathetic to another oppressed group.  Then the counter-arguments appear, with people expressing outrage that the plight of women is compared to slavery.  

                  IMO, no, we don't have to call a duck a duck.  We can call it a "domestic waterfowl," if it serves us politically, without selling our souls.

                  "Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." - Kenneth Boulding, economist

                  by randym77 on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 06:16:35 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  A Duck, A Duck (none / 0)

                    Do you really wanting to argue that the principle issue here is not homophobia? I just want to make certain this is what you want to argue bcause my thesis is that all these other arguments are at heart just cover up for what is basically homophobia. It doesn't mean people aren't reachable, because, in fact, they may be. But, we can't ignore the homophobic component of the discussion. This is the duck, a duck, issue of which I am writing: homophobia. This is the thing that you can rename it all you want- that will not change.

                    Ironically, it is a lesson that African-Americans (I mean blacks, I mean colors, I mean negros) have faced for a long time. Renaming doesn't address the underlying issues. It just creates a new surface that may or may not help in openning a few minds, but don't bet on it as a cure for the illness.

                    You seem bothered by calling homophobia what it is? Are you as bothered when someone calls an act of racism  against blacks what it is when it is clearly race that is motivating the action? Do you go through these contortions? If so, why? If not, why are you treating gays differently? The reason why your argument, just to make it clear, is a contortion is that you are trying to get around the discomfort people feel about gay sex by not making them feel like they have anything in common with gays. This is the thesis of the civil rights v. civil liberties argument: "I don't have anything in common with those gays."

                    "No, it's not denial of their rights to take away their kids." This would be the thesis of the civil rights versus liberties arguments. Are having your kids a civil liberty or a civil right? My home state took away the kids of a lesbian to give them to a convicted criminal a few years back who had just gotten out of jail because they felt he would be a better parent. The stated reason why is that she was a lesbian, and the kids would be subjected to that life style. Imagine them taking away black children because they felt they were not capable fo raising their kids. Oh, wait- that does happens. Does anyone in the black community think some of this is not motivated by racism. What about forced sterilization? Are those black people in the past who were subjected to this being denied their civil liberties or their civil rights?

                    "No, it's not denial of their rights that they can be fired or excluded like we were from jobs and organizations based on their status." Again, another example of how this argument becomes problematic. Although we as blacks also have faced this, we then turn to the situation with gays to say there is nothing in common with this? Why isn't there anything in common? Isn't it both discrimination? Yes, it takes on a different form because we are talking two different classes, one gay, one race, but is that all there is to the discussion? Do you see how you have to go through contortions?

                    Instead of calling that duck homophobia, we are being told no, it's not homophobia. It's dislike of the connection to the use of civil rights movement. Even writing it, it seems disingenious- and that's the insulting part. That we can't even call the thing that is being done against us what it is. It maybe expendient for the purpose of getting 2 out of 10 to listen, but it doesn't change the fact of what it is. One of the things about being of the two minority groups in supposed conflict (this is at times overplayed both here and else where because neither community is monolith in their views) is that I get to see how hypocritical both sides are. And, believe me, it is both sides. I may write a diary on how gays are just as capable of being racists as anyone else in America despite the fact they are asking for others to have them with their rights.

                    A quick example is that prior to the 2004 election I went to a gay organization of which I am a member to get their support on the black voting suppression issues that were occuring in Ohio. I got a lot of "it's not my problem" discussions. I had one guy send me an op-ed from the Wall Street Journal saying there was no voter suppression, and on, and on. When I asked a popular gay Democratic organization in a letter to denounce it as a show of solidarity, I got nothing. So, you see, this is both sides.

                    Where else has the "Civil rights" v. "Civil Liberties" argument become the prevalent argument except here on this issue? Not just did it come up- but did it control the debate. Because pointing out a few examples where it was used, but didn't become controlling is not a convincing argument when you are suggesting that

                    Will you win a few convert with this shell game?  Sure, but, mostly, I don't see it shifting the discussion by itself. It simply doesn't recognizes the limitations inherit right now in the debate. You have got to at some point also address the homophobia, but saying some head on points about it, even if you change the name of the duck.

                    Also, as someone said below, the notion that the ideas of the civil rights movement were special to the black civil rights movement are just false. This poster talks about post black civil rights era. But, I would argue even prior tot he civil rights era, you can find our roots in other movements. These people thinking the black civil rights movement spontaneously generated itself are just wrong. MLK borrowed a lot from other movements across the planet. So did Malcolm X among others. The idea is therefore just plain not true on the facts. Does it take away from what they did? No, it was a movement that I and you and everyone else benefited from. They changed America forever. But, the idea that this means we can't see how the movement has similarities to others is silly, wrong and dangerous. It's dangerous internally because we become incestruous and not willing to incorporate new ideas. It's dangerous because it means we may miss chances to build alliances where useful with others.

        •  As I see it . . . (none / 0)

          The problem is precisely in the avoidance of using "civil rights" when talking about gay rights.  Was the civil rights movement merely about black pride, merely about letting blacks hit back, merely about addressing the concerns of one racial minority?  If so, then fuck it.  Who needs it?

          But if it was about making rights more universal than they were before, then great.  If its message was that everyone, regardless of the circumstances of their birth, deserved equal standing as a citizen, then awesome.  Blacks only deserve rights because everyone deserves those rights.  If the civil rights movement was only about blacks, then it will be a mere blip on the historical radar.  If, instead, it is part of a broader movement, began even before America was founded, to universalize those rights which had previously only been extended to the ruling class, then and only then does it have power and authority.

          Yes, African-American leaders have taken huge strides in the fight for civil rights in the last half of the 20th century, and they deserve much honor for their actions.  Guess what: the fight is not over.  The fight for gay rights now is not qualitatively different from the fight for racial rights then.  African-Americans have no right to claim monopoly on the phrase "civil rights."  It belongs to women, to Hispanics, to Muslims, pagans and yes, to homosexuals.  

          I refuse to pander.

          No cookie for you

          The only rule of freedom is not to destroy freedom.

          by fuzzywolf on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 05:23:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Bedrock, bottom-line, fundamental.... (4.00 / 2)

      It's not about gay rights, or gay civil rights, it's about civil rights, period.

      As a straight man, I've been making this argument for 30 years. It's not gay rights, it's civil rights. That was the argument when Boulder (Colorado) County Clerk Clela Rorex issued a marriage license to a gay couple in March 1975. (Unfortunately, this was later nullified.)

      An excerpt from what I wrote at Daily Kos on this subject 11 months ago:

      So what does all this reminiscence have to do with anything today? It seems to me a microcosm of today's fight over gay marriage (and, really, every fight for equal rights since the founding of the Republic). Always on one side are those who say that tradition, common-sense, scientific studies, public order and divine revelation all dictate that the second-class group remain unequal, not quite legally human, and therefore subject to laws that nobody else is and unshielded by laws that everybody else is.

      On the other side are two groups: gradualists and maximalists. Every civil rights movement - every social movement in America - has included a tug-of-war between them. Almost always, the gradualists concede that they agree with the maximalists in principle: They know there's no such thing as half-equal, you either are, or you aren't. But politics is the art of the possible, the gradualists say, and reform takes time.

      True enough. But gradualism can't mean spinelessness.

      In 30 more years, I think most Americans will look back on the reluctance to extend equal rights to gays - including marriage rights - as another unfortunate discrimination consigned to the benighted past, and evidence once again of America's wonderful ability to perpetually transform itself into comprehensively fulfilling its ideals.

      To get there, however, requires what always has been required, grassroots warriors and elected politicians who edge forward little by little if that is only way progress can be made, but who never retreat without a fight and never lose sight of the ultimate goal.

      I know that many Democrats - both posters here and people who've never heard of a Web log - would like the dispute over gay marriage to go away. They fear it will sabotage our chances to put George Bush back into the private sector to continue the free-loading at which he is so adept. But this won't go away. It can't go away. Because it's not about gay marriage. It's about civil rights. Equal rights. Everybody's rights. Not a luxury. Not an add-on. Bedrock, bottom-line, fundamental.

      I don't know how long it will take to persuade the 46% in our party who still resist this truth. I do know the time will not be shortened if our party leaders go mealy-mouthed every time the subject comes up.


      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 12:52:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Civil Unions vs. Gay Marriage (4.00 / 3)

    As a Catholic marriage is one of the seven sacraments, the sacrament of matrimony.  The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.  My belief is a marriage is a religious privilege given by the church, and not the state or the federal government.

    The technical definition of a marriage is the legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.  In the state of Illinois to get married, you need to apply and receive a marriage license. This is the document in your state that allows you to officially tie the knot under the law.  When you apply for your license, you'll not only need a proof of identification and age, will need to provide any information about previous marriages, and will need to pay a nominal fee. Then you need to have a justice of the peace or a religious clergyman sign the document. The person will sign it and send it to the proper government agency for validation and then you will be married.  

    In reality a marriage license is a civil union between two consenting adults, given the couple all the rights provide under the law.  Then, it is up to the couple if they are religious to find a church to married them.  The Catholic Church or any other Faith has the right to not to perform the religious ceremony of marriage.  The federal government or the state should not be involved in a religious ceremonies. Two consenting adults should have the right to from a civil union under the law, no matter if it is two males, two females or male and female.  

    I am a man of faith, who believe in equality and I differ from the Catholic Church teachings on few issues.  If my Church or any other Religion believe marriage is between male and female they have the right to deny gay couples the privilege of marriage under rights of there faith and the federal or state governments should not enforce any Religion to perform a marriage ceremonies.  The government should not deny two consenting gay adults the rights of a civil union.  

    •  You're wrong (4.00 / 4)

      marriage is not one singular thing.  A marriage license is not a civil union license.  A civil union is a particular form of legal arrangement that exists in only one place-Vermont.

      Marriage is a civil contract and has been on this continent since the founding of the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

      Marriage may be a sacrament in the Catholic Church.  However, that doesn't give you sole provenance over it.

      No one is forcing any church to perform a marriage it doesn't want to.  No one.  No Catholic Church in Massachusetts is required to provide a church ceremony for same-sex couples.  Just like they don't have to marry Jews if they don't want to.  To imply that this is happening is a dishonest argument.

      I am a revolting homosexual!

      by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:17:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, historically, you are wrong (none / 0)

        Marriage is a religious institution at least in western culture. There is a difference between the bundle of rights that accrue to marriage (the civil union) and the religious aspects of the marriage. This is why in several European countries they actually have a civil union as ratified by the state and the marriage as ratified by the religion.

        Until radicals on both sides of this debate admit this we will always run in circles.

        Look, I say all this as a gay man who deeply believes in our equality. What I have a problem with as a lawyer is the idea that either side will not call things what they are. What this deep desire to have the bundle of rights be called marriage is really about the desire to be accepted. You can't legislate acceptance- I can tell you that as an African-American. We have tried sense the 50s, and there still are huge segments that don't accept blacks into their social circle. Indeed, look at TV for what I mean by this. What you can do is to guarantee that the rights are the same and equal. This comes down to having one system that provides a bundle of rights in the form of a civil union. This is a wider issue than even gay and straight.

        •  historically when? (none / 0)

          civil marriage predates the american revolution; is that old enough? other cultures saw marriage as a contract between families, and holding no religious significance; is "western" civilization the only legitimate source of law? are you planning to ban interfaith couples or atheists from marrying outside the church? marriage in this country used to be defined as between a free white man and a free white woman, now the law has been changed, and rightly so. as one of the framers of the constitution wrote,

          "We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816

          american law and western civilization both have their flaws, which we have amended with time, because we are the makers of history and the law, not the slaves of it. marriage may be a sacrament to the catholic church, but it is a legal agreement between two free individuals according to the secular state; you may have your interpretation of the spiritual significance of that relationship, but you do not have the right to impose your religious beliefs on others, whether they be in the majority or the minority. the first amendment is quite clear on the matter.

          oh, and let's be clear that not all religious groups would refuse to bless same-sex marriages, were the state to stop standing in the doorway blocking them. what is at stake is the southern baptists and other conservatives waging a religious war on the doctrine of liberal churches such as the quakers and unitarians. as it stands now, the law prevents those religious communities from having their marriages recognised as legal.

          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

          by wu ming on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 11:04:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what are you disagreeing with in my post? (none / 1)

            I mean that seriously because you seem to be restating what I have said in a different manner. Essentially, that the definition of marriage changes, but that religion and government have been a part of it for a long time. My argument essentially is to separate out the religion element, and advocate for the rights element irregardless of the name that we gives these rights. Do you disagree with the notion of civil unions as a bundle of rights for all? It sounds like we are arguing semantics if you agree with the premise that it should be about the bundle of rights.
            •  i am disagreeing with your statement (none / 0)

              that religion is inextricably linked with the legal institution of marriage, as proven by the existence of civil marriage for quite some time now. what you aim to do was already done centuries ago. there is no need for civil unions because civil marriage is essentially the same thing without the separate-but-equal overtones.

              while i am aware that we agree on about 90%, i still think that distinction is worth making. religion is already out of the legal process, which is why heterosexual interfaith couples and atheists are now legally able to marry, without the approval of any religious institution. part of the rights worth fighting for is the right to access to the same legal institution, regardless of social identity. civil unions, while an improvement over the status quo, does not fulfill that right.

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 12:58:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you are making, I think, semantic differences? (none / 0)

                The word "marriage" grows out of a religios use of the word. However, that separate from this, the state has always created some function that has nothing to do with religion. We both seem to understand that history.

                To get out of having this discussion about religion, we need to talk about this in terms of what it is (we being the left) - a bundle of rights because that is in practical terms is the only thing the state can affect. One that believes in separation of church and state that is. Indeed, you can convince even some evangelicals of this- if you make the argument that it's not about marriage.

                The desire to call it marriage has more to do with a desire by gays to be accepted. But this is unrealistic to expect a change in laws to equal acceptance. It doesn't and it won't. Those are two different battles. The example I give is that of being African American- I was talking today to a friend who like me is both gay and black and professional. We see the effects of the difference in what the law says and the issue of acceptance all the time. Professionally, there is a difference between what an organization is forced to do because of the laws on race versus what an organization will do for minority employees because it knows that these issues go beyond the letter of the law. It goes down to, for example, making certain there is a retention of employees and the growth of their career in the company.  He falls on the side of calling it marriage, but he acknowledges really for him its about having a more open society.

                My thing is that I don't believe as a lawyer that laws promote open society. They only determine rights and responsibilities. It is inadequate for the function of providing social acceptance. It still must do its job- provide the rights and protections. But, the rest- the acceptance, is a separaate battle that must be won outside of the law. Now is this line as clear as I am saying- no. But, to have this discussion you have got to start to make it clear I think so that more people on our side comes to the debate understanding what we can and can not do through legal action.

                •  i don't think that line of argument (none / 0)

                  wins us much in the end. over the long run, it is better to enter the discussion and work to convince people that it is wrong to ban one class of people from being able to marry whom they love than to allow the right wing to own the definition of both religion and marriage, and in so doing ceding control of the separation of church and state. fighting for partial rights only reinforces the assumption that gays are not equal - and not worthy of being treated as equal - to heteros.

                  the fact that opinions have already shifted towards equality in marriage, employment and elsewhere over the past decade suggests that we would be misguided to assume that there can be no more movement, and that we should give up on full equality. i agree that full acceptance will take a lot longer and that people's minds cannot be controlled by laws - nor should they be - but that does not mean that we should not press for full equality under law for all americans, just because the haters will continue to hate.

                  i see no benefit that civil unions provide that wouldn't be better done by extending civil marriage to all americans. additionally, the fact that liberal religious groups would be willing to perform same sex marriages were the state to accept them as legal gives the lie that there are consistent religious reasons to ban gay marriage. the division is political, and we lose if we allow the right to define the terms.

                  surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

                  by wu ming on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 02:27:18 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  it is the advatage of the fact that a lot (none / 0)

                    of people hear  marriage and think of their faith. whereas civil unions they have to be told by Republicans that it is the same thing. It's the advantage of coming to the conversation without external baggage versus coming to it with an open mind. Open minds are the hardest things to come by in these sorts of discussions where some many things are mixed together. This mixing together is what allows the Republicans to control the debate. If I can sit with a few evangeligicals and convince them- then what does that mean for the debate? For me, it means that I can be won if people are not requiring idealogical purity which has nothing to even really do with the substance of the goal or ideas they are trying to achieve, and the ideas and goals that they are trying achieve outside of the rights and responsibilities under the law are not even a matter of legal consideration- namely acceptance of gay folk. Two separate issues- that right now are not being separated, can in part begin to be separated by getting people past their bias.
    •  I think it important to add (none / 1)

      that many churches/religious groups some Christian, others not, are willing to perform same-sex marriages if allowed.  And there are traditions of such marriages in some cultures including some Native American cultures.  No one is expecting churches to perform marriages they don't endorse and even now churches refuse to marry interfaith, interracial, and previously married couples all the time depending on their teachings.  Civil marriage is a legal pact that has nothing directly to do with religion.  Religious marriage is a function of a church or religious community.
    •  Excuse My Bluntness, But Who The Fuck Cares? (4.00 / 2)

      I was married in the Roman Catholic Church, and now I'm divorced.  I'm heterosexual, and may at some point in the future get married again.  But I'll never get married in the Roman Catholic Church.  Why?  Because they will exercise their perogative to define marriage as, among other things, only between those who have never been divorced.  

      I don't detect any hatred in your comment, but I detect some profound confusion and failure to acknowledge the further implications of your argument.  You seem to be saying that the Roman Catholic Church, which has greatly influenced most Western and Central European social and cultural institutions that predate the 16th century, provides for you the definition of marriage, a definition which you assert is accepted by the wider society and culture.  Any sanction for something called "marriage" that doesn't fit the RCC's definition of marriage you seem to percieve as a threat.  If that's the case, you will have to reconcile the following facts and implications with your position:

      A. Other countries with significant RC populations, such as Canada, have or soon will be sanctioning same-sex marriage.  Why do those countries not seem to be suffering major problems or social dischord over the issue?

      B. The RCC's definition of marriage, as I've already mentioned, doesn't make room for those who've been divorced (unless they pay a lot of money and fill out tons of paperwork to purchase recieve an annulment).  If we're to deny same-sex couples the rights to a civil marriage due to how it conflicts with the religious terms of marriage acceptable to the RCC, then are you going to extend that denial of civil marriage to people who are divorced?  If not, why?

      C. Most importantly, why should it matter what the RCC thinks in terms of what other communities of faith and the general civil society think are alright?  Are we to now, because it's against church doctrine, ban the use of contraceptives?  

      I respect your faith, and with huge qualifications that would be unacceptable to any higher church officials, I still consider myself a nominal Catholic.  But your argument, based as it is on Church doctrine, practice and authority, is worse than useless in terms of crafting an acceptable solution to the problem of same-sex couple lacking anything close to the same rights and protections as those granted to heterosexual couples.  

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by DHinMI on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 01:01:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry, If I did not make my point clear (none / 0)

    Yes, I know your point. No one is forcing a church to perform a marriage.  That is not my argument. Sorry, If I did not make my point clear.  My over all point is my belief is a marriage is a religious privilege given by the church, and not the state or the federal government. The federal government or the state should not be involved in a religious ceremonies.  The government should not deny two consenting gay adults the rights of a civil union.  
    •  And my larger point (4.00 / 3)

      is that I'm sick of religionists thinking they have sole claime to marriage.  It's a social and cultural institution as much as it is religious.  It has meaning for many people who are not religious and I'm sick and tired of religious folks thinking they're so special that they get to define the terms for everyone else.  Somehow, y'all seem to think that because it has meaning in your religion, that this is the only acceptable meaning, and that your meaning is more special to you than it is to anyone else.  I'm sick of the arrogance of the religious.

      I am a revolting homosexual!

      by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:32:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The even larger point (none / 0)

        It's a social and cultural institution

        So, why does the government have to "license" it?

        •  Because there are rights and benefits (4.00 / 2)

          that compose the institution.  That's what institutions do, distribute social resources.

          I am a revolting homosexual!

          by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:39:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Because (none / 0)

          The societal benefits of marriage are so great that it deserves an official civil sanction that is documented and recognized as a legal condition.  There are all kinds of "liscences" issued by the government, because it is in the society's greater interest to do so- business liscences, fishing liscences, driver's liscences, etc.  One could argue that a marriage liscence represents a geater potential social good than any other example.

          I personally agree with the Congressman's point, and do not understand the Democratic leadership's squeamishness about this issue.

          How to frame this to appeal to a broad audience?  Simple, cut to the core- it's about individual freedoms.  The right to live your life the way you want to, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Marriage, as a civil contract, is a right which should be available to anyone who wishes to enter into it.  The government is there to sanction the individual decision, to recognize the sacred contract between two individuals, because it is a good thing for people to be in love and want to stay together.

          Force the republicans to stand against love.  That would force them to reveal their truly evil intent.

          Life ain't nothin' but a funny funny riddle- Thank God I'm a Unitarian!

          by scott on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 10:01:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sacred? (none / 1)

            to recognize the sacred contract between two individuals

            Government can only recognize contracts.

            Government, and particularly this government, couldn't recognize "sacred" if it came down on "thrones of power" and slapped them silly.

      •  I am not a religionists. (none / 0)

        Yes, marriage is a it is a social and cultural institution too.  I am not trying to push my faith on anyone.  My believes are personal to myself and my faith.  I do not think I am special and I am not trying to define the terms of a marriage between two adults.  I am offering a point of view from where I stand.  People express there faith in many ways, if you are a religious person or not.  Equity should still be a goal for all to reach  for.  Simply put, The government should not deny two consenting gay adults the rights of a civil union if the government believes in Equity.  
        •  Yes you are (none / 0)

          your "marriage belongs to the church" line of argumentation is exactly what I'm arguing against.  You say the state should get out of marriage and give civil unions because marriage should belong to the churches.  I'm saying marriage does not and should not belong to the churches.  Civil marriage belongs to the state.  Why should I be willing to allow churches to take marriage away from the state?

          I am a revolting homosexual!

          by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 11:16:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Again (none / 0)

            For some reason, we are not making a connection between our different views.  I think we both are trying to reach the same goal but in separate ways.   The fact is people do get married at a churches or with a justice of the peace.  I do not think a marriage belong to one sole institution completely.  I am not willing to allow churches take away marriage from the state.  

            The word marriage has a religious meaning to many people in America.  My point is state should not issue marriages license to people.  They should issue civil union license to people, it is a matter of changing the word the state uses on the license.   In reality a marriage license is a civil union between two consenting adults, given the couple all the rights provide under the law.  I want a marriage license to be the same thing as a civil union in the long run.  

            You are caught up on the word marriage,  I am willing to give the state the right to issue civil union license to adult who want to spend there lives together.

            •  Who's caught up on a word (none / 0)

              you want to remove the word marriage from the state's purview.  You say explicitly you want the state to give "civil union licenses" and that you want to change the word "marriage" to "civil union" on the license.  You accuse me of being stuck on the word for wanting exactly what exists now.  You want to take the word marriage away from the state and reserve it for the churches.  You say you don't want to take marriage from the state and two sentences later you say the state shouldn't give marriage licenses.  You're contradicting yourself.

              I am a revolting homosexual!

              by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 12:01:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, I am not contradicting myself. (none / 0)

                For some reason you are not understanding me.  I did not want to reserve marriages only for the churches.  A lot of people are caught up on the word marriage.  You can call it anything you want, that make you feel good.  If you want to call it a civil union or a marriage, go for it.  Let me write this down again,  I do not want to take marriages away from the state or churches.

                I only want to change the definitions, rather than the state issuing marriage license they should issue civil union license for two consenting adults.  With the license you  can go to a church or anywhere you want to get married or whatever you want to call it.  It is a matter of language and the law of the state.  I am trying to make it simple for people to support, if you take away the word marriage and use civil union.  In the long run, I think people are more willing to support unions between two gay people.  

                Again, I am not taking any rights away from anyone you can think of.  I am just trying to expand rights of straight couples to gay couples.  

              •  No, I am not contradicting myself. (none / 0)

                For some reason you are not understanding me.  I did not want to reserve marriages only for the churches.  A lot of people are caught up on the word marriage.  You can call it anything you want, that make you feel good.  If you want to call it a civil union or a marriage, go for it.  Let me write this down again,  I do not want to take marriages away from the state or churches.

                I only want to change the definitions, rather than the state issuing marriage license they should issue civil union license for two consenting adults.  With the license you  can go to a church or anywhere you want to get married or whatever you want to call it.  It is a matter of language and the law of the state.  I am trying to make it simple for people to support, if you take away the word marriage and use civil union.  In the long run, I think people are more willing to support unions between two gay people.  

                Again, I am not taking any rights away from anyone you can think of.  I am just trying to expand rights of straight couples to gay couples.  

            •  Do you mind if I ask (none / 0)

              What, exactly, is your objection to the state using the word "marriage"? Because I can't get my head around it.

              I mean, I read your posts upthread, and I understand that you are a Catholic who has certain religious beliefs, but I'm still having a hard time understanding where you're coming from. And I ask because it seems a lot of people lately are concerned with the state using the word "marriage". But this doesn't seem to apply to other shared language. For example, the word "confirmation" has a certain religious meaning for Catholics (and is also a sacrament, right?) but has secular meaning elsewhere. I've never heard anyone argue that the state ought not use the word "confirmation" in a law, and folks certainly don't seem confused about the word meaning one thing in a statute and another in a Catholic church. So why the hubbub with a secular state use of the word "marriage"?

              •  "marriage" is special. (4.00 / 2)

                it's too special for gay people.  and we have to respect that it's too special for gay people.

                I am a revolting homosexual!

                by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 12:43:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  MAJeff (none / 0)

                  Just so you know, you're giving me mental images of the Church Lady. ;)

                  On a more serious note, I think it really is ludicrous that anyone with a functioning brain cell and half a conscience would even attempt to make the argument that their own personal belief system should be the justification for exempting an entire group of people from equal rights under the law of a secular government. (And not that it matters in the grand scheme of the issue, but I'm also queer and I both appreciate as well as share your outrage.) But to be fair, that doesn't seem to be Eloy's argument. S/he seems to be saying that the legal equality is fine with him/her, it's just the naming--which I personally find baffling.

              •  It is not really an objection (none / 0)

                It is a matter of language, If you poll people and ask them do they support marriages or civil union for gay people.  Civil unions get the higher poll numbers.  I think more people will support the idea of civil unions for gay people if the state issues civil unions for every couple who want to get married.  

                My first post, I did not try to get in a argument over anyone faith.  It is just how I came to understand what a is marriage.

                and your question
                So why the hubbub with a secular state use of the word "marriage"?

                The hubbub is now with me, but with the right wingers who is trying to the word marriage in terms of religion to deny equal rights for everyone.  An effective use of language in this issue and many other will help build a support for marriages or civil unions for gay couples.  

                Again, I do not want the right to highjack religion to deny people rights of equity.  Changing a few words around in order to reach a goal of equity such as marriage and civil unions was my point.  

                •  So you just see it as strategic? (none / 0)

                  Interesting.

                  I disagree that renaming is an effective strategy. Succinctly: 1) I think there would be an enormous backlash if the Democrats and/or gays were ever perceived as having "killed marriage for everyone", which is a very real danger of removing legal marriage; and 2) historically speaking, there was overwhelming objection to interracial marriage in public opinion polls prior to Loving v Virginia but that's almost entirely evaporated now. Myself, I think it makes the most sense and has the lowest potential for unpredictable fallout to just interpret the existing laws to apply equally to all of us gay folk.

    •  I understand your point. (none / 1)

      The problem is that redefining civil marriages into civil unions is the same thing as allowing gays to marry. Saying that I'm "civil unionized" by the state, so long as gives me all the rights, responsibilities, privileges and benefits of marriage is okay by me. But if the state does that, why doesn't it just call it marriage? I don't think that my neighbor, Dick Fundie, is going to be mollified by the "church = marriage vs. state = civil union" proposal you seem to advocate. A rose by any other name...

      Which brings us to a more fundamental question. Why doesn't the government just get out of the marriage business altogether? Well, for one thing, children. Who claims legal responsibility for kids when there isn't a legal contract between the parents (regardless of their sex)? Who gets to claim survivor benefits if there isn't a legal relationship between folks? I can't very well get "married" by the Church of What's Happening Now and then later claim that but there's no legal structure in place that I don't owe my partner any of our life's work together, can I?

      I could on and on, and I often do, but I don't want to hijack this excellent diary.

      Pam, thanks for posting this. I hope that all democrats can learn to speak as clearly and forcefully as Mr. Watt. Great job finding this one.

      There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

      by timerigger on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:43:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why not (4.00 / 4)

        just call it marriage?  Because marriage is too special for gay people.  That's what lies at the heart of this.

        I am a revolting homosexual!

        by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:45:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Too true (none / 0)

          Bias against gays is the last acceptable bigotry.

          There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

          by timerigger on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:47:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not going that far (none / 0)

            there are lots of prejudices that are still acceptable.  Can you imagine a Muslim running for President?  I won't get into the oppression olympics by making such statements.

            I am a revolting homosexual!

            by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:49:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you're right (none / 0)

              Atheists can't get elected to office either, and racism is still rampant.

              I guess that it really bugs me that the guy at the convenience store gets to have a picture of himself huggy & kissing his girlfirend in plain view for everyone to see while if tried to do the same thing, I'd be "flaunting my lifestyle".

              There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

              by timerigger on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 09:56:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Flaunting it (4.00 / 4)

                One of my favorite poems:

                For  The Straight Folks Who Don't Mind Gays But Wish They Weren't So Blatant

                By Pat Parker

                You know, some people got a lot of  nerve.  Sometimes I don't believe the things I see and hear.

                Have you met the woman who's  shocked by two women kissing and, in the same breath, tells you  she is pregnant? But gays, shouldn't be so blatant.

                Or this straight couple sits next  to you in a movie and you can't hear the dialogue because of the  sound effects. But gays shouldn't be so blatant.

                And the woman in your office spends  an entire lunch hour talking about her new bikini drawers and how  much her husband likes them. But gays shouldn't be so blatant.

                Or the "hip" chick in  your class rattling like a mile a minute, while you're trying to get stoned in the john, about the camping trip she took with her  musician boyfriend.
                But gays shouldn't be so blatant.

                You go into a public bathroom and  all over the walls there's John loves Mary, Janice digs Richard,  Pepe loves Delores, etc., etc. But gays shouldn't be so blatant.

                Or your go to an amusement park and  there's a tunnel of love with pictures of straights painted on the  front and grinning couples are coming in and out. But gays  shouldn't be so blatant.

                Fact is, blatant heterosexuals are  all over the place. Supermarkets, movies, on your job, in church,  in books, on television every day and night, every place--even in  gay bars--and they want gay men and woman to go and hide in the closet.

                So to you straight folks I say,  "Sure, I'll go if you go too. But, I'm polite so, after you."

                I am a revolting homosexual!

                by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 10:03:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Semantics (none / 0)

          I think the "M-word" freaks people out, because they jump to the conclusion that their church will be forced to marry gay people. Of course they won't (Church-state separation is A Good ThingTM!) but they think that, anyway.

          If you look at the polls, most people think gay people should have some kind of legal thingamabob, but many balk at the word "marriage." I know a lot of gay marriage advocates are concerned that civil unions will turn out to be "separate but (un)equal," and I understand that concern, too. But I also don't think the courts would allow any differentiation to stand for too long.

          •  true and the wingnuts are intentionally confusing (none / 0)

            the issues.  Many of the religious wingnuts not only falsely make that claim, but even go further and state that churches will be censored by the government if they teach homosexuality is a sin if gay marriage becomes legal.  Blatantly a lie, since that would be unconstitutional, and there is no connection between those issues.
        •  marriage equality (none / 0)

          I heard that phrase used in a forum yesterday suggested by a gay man.  It removes the terms "gay" and "same-sex" from the equation and becomes a statement of equal marriage rights for all.  It would make it a bit more difficult for the wingers to demonize marriage equality.

          I'm a blue drop in a red bucket.

          by blue drop on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 10:58:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  get outside the activist blogosphere (none / 1)

          and out into middle America, or West Viriginia, or any rural area or talk to people of color. the vicious response to gay "marriage" is intense and a political non-starter. however, when i informed folks in CA that gay "marriage" is essentially what we have since the new laws took effect this year, except they're called "domestic partnerships," all the resistance seemed to be neutralized ("As long as they don't pretend it's on par with marriage between a man and a woman, then i guess it's ok.")

          i was at conference where pollster Celinda Lake talked about the religious breakdown of the electorate, with one-third caling themselves born-again (65% in Arkansas), 89% call themselves Christian in rural areas, 75% of voters believe in miracles. the percentage of atheists or secular was around 10%. this is the electorate we have to deal with, and as they are the majority, policy will have to conform to their worldview if we as Democrats are to succeed, thus why i think civil unions is the best we can do for now until all the 20-year olds get into power.

          •  And it would be nice (none / 0)

            if we could actually get democrats to support civil unions, to advocate and agitate for them.  Instead, we'll get individual Democrats saying they support them, we'll get no policy support, no benefits, and no prinicipled defense of us as people or our families when the right wing attacks us.  Then we will be told to make people who are uncomfortable with gay marriage more at home in our party--as if the Democratic Party is unhospitable to homophobes...

            I am a revolting homosexual!

            by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 12:12:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  acceptance (none / 0)

              The PArty is not unhospitable to homophobes, but certainly party professionals/activists/campaign types are. almost everyone believes in gay marriage and if you express any hesitation on gay rights issues, you are immediately branded a bigot. reminded me of my sociology ivy league class. the right wing does have a point at times about enforced liberal fascism. while it's great of course, that the campaign/blogger/activist types are so supportive of gay rights, i do believe it made them very out-of-touch with the electorate at large, and how much of an emotional issue the marriage amendments would be. if they had an awareness, maybe they could have fought back harder.
              •  enforced liberal fascism my ass (none / 1)

                and that's coming from a sociology teacher.

                I am a revolting homosexual!

                by MAJeff on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 12:41:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  my alma mater (none / 0)

                  had protests and marches recently i believe to prevent Scalia from giving a speech on campus. that is truly embarassing and desecrates supposed liberal values. and i was in a class where one girl said she opposed affirmative action and the [leftist] professor bit her head off in a completely inappropriate way so that she never spoke up in class again.
                  •  Conservatives and Christians as Victims (none / 0)

                    1) I always find it amusing when conservatives who advocate a dog-eat-dog world view argue (no necessarily you, but the idea of the girl who didn't like affirmative action would complain that she wasn't being treated fairly is just ironic) that they are victims. As I have said elsewhere, don't preach that no one should be given special treatment, and every man or woman must be for themselves, and then turn around and complain when liberals bite back. This is really what you are talking about you. Liberals biting back in a society that is moving rightward at the moment on its federal political level.

                    If she is so weak, and pathetic, that she can't come back and say what needs to be said, then don't expect me to have much sympathy.

                    It's sort of like the Christians as victims routine which has gain popular favor with Evangelicals and even some Catholics as exemplified by Passion of the Christ (which had to do more with Christ as victim than as savior).

                    Christians are not victims in a society of which they are the majority. This isn't communisit Russia, it isn't the Taliban of Afghanistan and it's not even ancient Rome. This is the modern day US, of which, most conservatives are fond of saying is a country founded by Christians (I won't get into the inaccuracies of the statement).

                    The idea that anyone of these people are victims- especially- by the way Scalia is just silly. Whine to someone else who doesn't know better. What you are in essense arguing is that he is a victim because people protested against him and what he stands for. That's called freedom of speech. In a dot-eat-dog world, of conservative Republicanism, you can't be arguing that these people are not able to defend themselves or stand up for themselves without us feeling sorry for them because they are the poor, misunderstood victims are you?

                    Let me be clear. I don't consider myself a victim in this society. I  know what way the rules are structured, and I am trying to change the rules so that they aren't disfavoring me. The people you are talking about are whining, not because the rules of society are against them, but because someone dares to call them on it. For that, all I can say is they can whine to the cows come home. I don't see them as victims. I see them as whiners who want to be what they accuse people like me of being- victims.

          •  Celinda Would Probably Scoff At Your Claims (none / 0)

            You're painting with a ridiculously wide and coarse brush.  

            What you claim to be a "majority" view is a majority view in the rural south and plains.  But it's far more complicated than you assert, and I can tell you that based in part from working on question wording and interpreting polling data with...yup, Celinda Lake.

            BTW, a lot of those people claiming belief in miracles are crystal-wearing hippie-chicks who vote for same-sex marriage in a heartbeat.  

            The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

            by DHinMI on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 01:09:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i was not talking about same sex marriage (none / 0)

              and people's views on it or making the assumption that all religious voters oppose it. my church is now undergoing a nice schism over the question.

              i was just saying that we have a very religious electorate, so that any cries by secular folks on how oppressed they feel because of the christian folks views on marriage is not going to win any political points since there are so few of them.

              •  I think people (none / 0)

                need full disclosure about your family and your issues on this subject matter. We have had this discussion in other threads where it is clear that a reasonable debate is hard to have with you. I mean you point out that your mother thanked God that you and your siblings did not turn out gay, that you didn't have HIV and that you were not engaging in orgie. If you are starting from this sort of place in this discussion, it's hard to see you ever being able to recognize the civil union argument.

                But, there are even evangelicals who are split on the issue of civil unions versus marriage. Indeed, in Ohio, exit polls, among other sources, show that 56 percent of the voters (some of whom had to be religious) supported civil unions despite voting for an amendment to deny even civil unions. The reason being the misinformation by the Republicans that a support for civil unions and the like would allow the govt to force churches to perform gay marriages.

                The reason why you can not have an honest discussion here is that you will not acknowledge that even religious people disagree about the rights that should be afforded to gay couples once you take it out of the realm of what they believe about marriage is a religous way. Indeed, if you start talking to people about these issues honestly you would find that a lot of them see the complications especially when you point out such things as well the Bible doesn't allow for divorce as Americans do it- so are you against that? If they say no, then you have the basis of arguing well if your faith doesn't determine that issue- or issues of black women having children out of wed lock- then why this issue?

                It's a more honest debate- that I have had with other evangelicals- including black evangelicals once I start to get into it with them. But, frankly, given your past posts, I am not seeing that as possible with you. Your agenda seems to be, if I am wrong say so, but it seems to be that these things are straight forward (pardon the pun). Namely, that all Christians think as a monolith. This is what Dobson certainly thinks. But, of course, he gets into trouble because there are people like Al Sharpton, Coretta Scott King, and indeed, a lot of churches including conservative white ones like the Lutherans who are trying to figure out where they stand or believe on this issue.

                This is all without disrespecting the religion. It's also without going into the complication of the doctrines themselves. ie that the prohibitions that people point through based on traditions aren't entirely clear. Frankly, they can't be. The concept of gay as it is thought of now is modern. It doesn't take into account the immutable nature of the trait should science prove as it is starting to that there is a strong genetic component. If there is a genetic component, then it would be akin to telling a black person to bleach his skin to tell a gay person not to be gay. Or telling a woman to not have female sex orgasm and hormones.

                None of your discussions ever seem to bring up these complications. Just that you imagine you speak for blacks and evaneglicals as a monolith. You need to separate out what you feel personally with what people are saying. Once you do that- you will find it is far more complicated that you think.

                •  complication (none / 0)

                  of course it's all complicated. see my other post on one of Pam's great diaries:

                  http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/1/2/10542/68722/55#55

                  my family surprisingly supported or shrugged at the CA new's domestic partnership laws. they definitely could support civil unions, but not gay marriage. homophobia is an ugly thing, just like racism. it rears its head everywhere. so if you think i'm being unreasonable by bringing up the view "out there" instead of the very liberal blogosphere, then what can i say.

                  and where the hell have i said Christians or evnagelicals are a monolith? hell, i've been on a crusade to get folks to see that many evangelicals already are 1. part of the Dem party or 2. more white evangleicals could be persuaded to vote Dem if we tried to get them. Christians are an enormously diverse and complicated group. if anything, it's the folks who keep bashing or saying "the evangelicals" that i try to engage with. i have friends who vote pro-life and for Bush, but at the same time do missionary work in Afghanistan and Sudan. my mom may think homosexual acts are a sin, but she also visited everyday her gay friend who was dying of AIDS, which is more than i can say for some of his other "liberal" friends. people are complicated ya know?

                  •  if she is visiting them with the attitude that (none / 0)

                    they are sinning then I dont know how much she is really helping them. But, that's another discussion regarding how I view Christianity and it's way of "helping" people (look to the tsunami victims and the rest issues related to the Christian efforts (at least by some) there as to why this is problematic.).

                    The complications - if you will notice my other posts- are in the fact that if you make assumptions about who people are- then its hard to really give them right because you will most likely sell them out based on those assumptions. This is the reality of say white liberal support of blacks. It's not that they don't have their hearts in the right place, it is that they are too easily willing to sell us down the river when it becomes an inconvience because they don't understand, not really, the issues of which we are trying to address. There is an intellectual understanding of it, of course, because we are all human, but that understanding of being in, well that is reserved for those who go through it. And, if you are, as liberal, coming at it from an already negative view of gays that we are all sitting around trying to have orgies, then, of course, the discussion about wanting to build something with someone y ou love is already alien to you. So, in theory, you can support the right, but in practicality, you may not understand why we want it.

                    I discuss below the difficulties of these issues- because at base- there are separate issues going on here- of which marriage is being used as a proxy. Because it is being used as a proxy- its hard to have a true conversation. The idea, for example, that anyone, in this day and age, with AIDS or sexual appetite, would equate this with just gays, is dangerous. It is as a dangerous as equating all blacks with being theives or all blacks as being sexually out of control (as some whites still think) because it informs judgement in other areas. This kind of conversation brings up the contradictions of my arguments here. Because on the one hand, I get all this stuff- that where these discussions are "really" coming from are not faith. They are about perceptions of gays. It's even stuff like us "flaunting" our sexuality. I live in NYC. I live in a Black/Latino neighborhood where the women are wearing skin tight paints on the subway everyday, and the the couples are making out constantly (literally yesterday, I sat next to a couple kissing the entire time). If this isn't flaunting their sexuality, I do't know what is. Yet, I have to hear the mere fact I want to hold my partner's hand for example (if I ever get one) is a sign of me trying to flaunt my sexuality.  The complication in the law is that a lot of this has very little to "really" do with faith, and everything to do with exposing the reality that we have a separate set of rules under the law for gays and separate rules for straights. This society says that it is okay for this discrimination. We can't change the face of the society regarding those forces outside of the law- ie, the straight couple making out next to me v. my holding hands with my parter. But, we can make so that the laws are fair.

                    •  flaunting sexuality (none / 0)

                      yeah, i hear the double standard. i feel for ya all. i personally don't like any PDA in general, gay or straight.

                      the homophobia that exists is most visceral among men, esp men of color. most of them have admitted to me that the reason why they hate gay men (because of course they looove lesbians) is because they can't conceive of wanting to suck another guy's dick and how foul that is, against nature, blah blah blah. so to see two guys just kissing or holding hands sets them off. it's really amusing if it weren't so pathetic and sad.

                      •  my thing is i am not really into a PDA (none / 0)

                        either but I am forced to see that in an open society- in which I have to sit next to people who are groping each other when I am just trying to go home at night. or the have to put up with the street preachers yelling in the morning when I get on the subway- that's what happens in open societies. You deal with things that make you feel uncomfortable as a part of life. This idea that they can protect themselves from that is a childish and frankly dangerous to any society trying to make rules.
      •  What you are proposing is (none / 0)

        the most radical change of governmental laws in over a thousand year plus years or so. The Govt has been involved in the institution of marriages since before the founding of this country. I know you maybe not be a lawyer, but go an study property law from England of which our system is based. There laws were had laws defining property right according to marriage. This idea that marriage is something new is crazy. it's not. What's needed is a frank discussion of what is really at issue. The idea that the rights that governments confer to marriage has changed over time because the institution is not immutable. The rights can change although the marriage has not because they are indeed separate issues.

        Let me give you an example- the definition of the woman's role in the marriage- and her property rights has changed significantly over time- so that now the property rights are the same.

        •  are you talking to me? (none / 0)

          I'm not proposing that government get out of the business of marriage. My argument is that government can't get out of marriage. Marriage isn't only a private agreement between two people and their God, it's between them and the society at large.

          That's why I believe that ultimately, civil unions are doomed to fail. Civil unions weaken marriage because they allow people to enter into quasi-marriages that won't mean as much to the partners or the society they live in. They won't carry the same weight and therefore can't possibly serve the same purpose.

          The laws of unintended consequence will rule. Hetero couples will increasingly choose civil unions, the civil dissolution rate will outpaced the already alarming rate of divorce and everyone will be worse off.

          There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

          by timerigger on Sun Jan 16, 2005 at 06:21:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not alarmed (none / 0)

            I don't think society would collapse if no one got married.  Marriage is very much out of favor in some European countries, like Sweden, and life goes on...quite happily.  

            In fact, I'd go so far as to say traditional marriage no longer fits into our culture.  In the 18th century, "till death do us part" was about five years, on average.  In the U.S., marriage was often an economic necessity. Until fairly recently, almost everyone in the U.S. was a farmer.  It took at least two adults to run a farm.  This economic reality kept couples together even when they were miserable with each other.  

            Anthropologically speaking, the bonds of matrimony tend to weaken when conditions allow a woman to support her children without a man's help.  So what's happening now is perfectly natural, and perhaps unavoidable.  Especially given the long lifespans modern technology has granted us.  "Till death do us part" is now an awfully long time.