Cartoons and tolerance: view from the "religious left"

Yesterday we heard about James Dobson and, er, shall we call it "Spongegate"? No--that would be taking his words far more seriously than they deserve to be. I had a bit of fun myself, speculating on where these right-wing ideas about characters like Tinky Winky and Spongebob might originate. Today I read Keith Olbermann's column, "Will Spongebob make you gay?" and watched the video that Dobson claimed, as reported in Olbermann's column "had been included in a pro-homosexual video which was to be mailed to thousands of elementary schools to push a tolerance pledge by kids, including tolerance of differences of what Dr. Dobson called "sexual identity.""

If you haven't seen the video yourself (it was shown last night on Countdown), the column has a link where you can view it. Keith Olbermann commented after showing the video:

"By the way, not only did I not see any sexual identity in that, I didn't even see very much of SpongeBob either. Although Winnie the Pooh wasn't wearing pants."

As I waited in an insanely long line to buy groceries this evening (we are supposed to get a lot of snow this weekend) I thought about the video, which is a new version of the 1979 disco hit "We Are Family", and its message of tolerance, diversity, and the idea that we are all family. I believe in that message--those are my values. Thankfully, I have found a local church, which is a member of the Center for Progressive Christianity, and the people there share those values as well.

And I thought about James Dobson and the distorted, hurtful brand of Christianity that he espouses and preaches. I thought about the fact that he rails against and is prepared to blame those pushing a "tolerance agenda" for the downfall of society as he knows it. But I'm sure he does not think that he bears any responsibility when a gay man dies as a result of a hate crime, or when a gay teen commits suicide. I thought about how distubing it is that this man continues to get airtime, that he would even be called upon to give an address to members of Congress at a black-tie, inaugural event in Washington D.C., and that the name James Dobson is being repeated in news stories this week, again and again, in the same breath as the word "Christian".

Thinking about all of these things, I didn't feel like laughing any more. I felt like screaming--or weeping. But I also realized that what religious progressives (really all non hate-based religious people) needed to do was to speak, and to write about our values. More than that--and this is the tricky part we really need some help with--we need to find a way to be heard.

•  Renee - you should check out

  MSO's hilarious comment rant on this on the WYFP diary.  It'll bring a smile.

  I swear these clowns do this to generate publicity.  
  What makes these people so hateful?  I just don't understand it.

  by 2lucky on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 09:18:16 PM PDT

  •  It's about the money.

    I've been reading God's Politics by Rev. Jim Wallis (great book, btw).  He said that in a discussion with members of Focus on the Family (Dobson's group) one member admitted that it was more the problems of the heterosexual families in America that are keeping families apart more than gay families.  He then said "but don't tell our fundraising department that."

    I'm disgusted that these people actually claim to represent the views of Christ.  

    by djtyg on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:38:43 AM PDT

    •  Jim Wallis' Book

      Can't wait to get my hands on "God's Politics." I heard an interview Terri Gross had with Rev. Wallis on NRP's "Fresh Air" this past Thursday, and it was superb. (It's 25 minutes long, but well worth it.)

      Here's the link:

      http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4460055

      by PowerChord on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:26:07 AM PDT

      •  And a warning....

        Jim Wallis has wingnut pro-life views.

        by PowerChord on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:39:44 AM PDT

  •  The conspiracy revealed...

    I sort of went off on a silly rant last night about the SpongeBob thing. I don't know why these people do this...they're crazy? They are hateful, but I tend to think of it as they really hate themselves and just want to make everyone else just as miserable.

    Not being a religious person myself, it's hard for me to understand why any of this gets so much airtime. However, I will say that I was intrigued by what Jim Wallis had to say on TDS this past week. At least there is some reason among the fold.

    by mugsimo on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:52:02 AM PDT

    •  Wingnut View

      I don't know why these people do this...they're crazy? They are hateful, but I tend to think of it as they really hate themselves and just want to make everyone else just as miserable.

      It's not a "hate thing" to them at all -- which is how they justify their feelings. They truly believe it's a "moral" issue where alternative lifestyles threaten the modern family. I know. I'm around them daily.

      by PowerChord on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:29:47 AM PDT

      •  My sympathies

        I realize they never see it as "hate" which, to me, only makes it more hateful. I was taught by my seriously Catholic (i.e., several nuns and priests in the family) to MYOFB...each their own...peacefulness above all things...even - and maybe especially - if you think they're all going to hell.

        The bible-thumper "Christians" never got the memo, I guess.

        by mugsimo on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:34:43 AM PDT

•  How can progressive christians

  get more air time, Renee?  How can they get "in" with the people who book the talk shows, channel the pundit circuits, manage the television stations, assign the stories to reporters, etc.?

  Dobson has become a household word in the last decade.  But that name didn't use to be so quoted or associated with what Dobson's hatreds pervert.

  How, within a decade, can progressive christians achieve prominence and be associated in the public mind with "christianity"?  How to effect that change?

  by concernedamerican on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 09:36:30 PM PDT

  •  Perhaps more important...

    Is there any progressive clergyman or woman well-known enough to have his/her own Sunday morning TV show?  If not, how about a progressive show featuring different people each week.  I could go for a lineup of Marcus Borg, William Sloane Coffin, Barbara Brown Taylor, Forrest Church...

    We have to provide an alternative to the hateful tripe that dominates the Sunday morning airwaves.
    

    by KTinOhio on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 11:35:36 PM PDT

    •  Maybe we can talk Dr Phil

      into interviewing spongebob and dobson together?

      by glitterscale on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 07:18:40 AM PDT

    •  How about John Shelby Spong?

      There are plenty of well-known, articulate people who could do this.

      In Canada we have something called "Vision TV" which is a cable channel devoted to religious and spiritual broadcasting.  I have to say the quality of the programming is often very good - and I've also learned a lot about non-Christian faith traditions from watching it.  Is there a cable channel like that in the US?

      by fishhead on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:26:14 AM PDT

      •  There are several religious channels

        on my satellite system. Everything from a prayer channel to lectures at BYU. I couldn't attest to any of the quality, though.

        by mugsimo on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:47:16 AM PDT

    •  Charismatic articulate progressive clergyfolk

      Rev. Jim Forbes of Riverside Baptist in NYC has lots of cred and is a sought-after preacher.  He spoke this past summer at a series of "Let Justice Roll" voter-drive events throughout the nation.

      Tony Campolo, founder of the seminary at Eastern in Pennsylvania is a progressive evangelical who can really charge up a crowd for justice and criticize Bush foreign policy.  Campolo was a spiritual advisor to Clinton.

      So was Phil Wogaman, an incredibly articlate and engaging ethicist, former Pastor of Foundry UMC in DC (a Reconciling homosexual-friendly congregation).

      If we look beyond fame (Jesse Ventura proved it was not a sufficient quality for a successful talk show) then there are hundreds of gripping speakers and charismatic women and men within our nation's religious education system.  I am currently at a seminary in DC and could easily name four instructors here who are both committed to the creation of God's kingdom as described by Isaiah (an implicitly progressive vision) and are funny, engaging, effective commmunicators.  I'm certain that the faculty at my seminary, which has a reputation within our denomination for being in the "middle of the road" on theological and political issues, mirrors the talent pool of progressive professionally-trained communicators at Christian institutions throughout the nation.

      by Zhirrad on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:17:49 AM PDT

      •  So the question is, how to get them

        into the stream/circuit of interviews and talk shows and consulting and naming and citing etc. that makes the rounds of television and press and radio?  So that there can be more than one face of "christianity" represented, and so that christianity can start to be associated with, not moralistic sermonizing and anger at deviance, but rather, statements that truly espouse the message of Christ?

        by concernedamerican on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 01:47:29 PM PDT

  •  Jim Wallis gets it

    The founder of Sojourners, Jim Wallis, has a new book out called God's Politics and he's been on The Daily Show and Terry Gross promoting it.

    by NTodd on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 06:34:58 AM PDT

    •  Charlie Rose interviewed him last night

      Wallis is making the rounds to promote his new book, and agitating for a better conversation about values. He's very compelling.

      by bumblebums on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 07:32:16 AM PDT

      •  Cool! n/t

        by NTodd on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:07:48 AM PDT

    •  Jim Wallis: Anti-Choice

      Rev. Wallis won't get broad support in the pro-choice community, because of his boarderline wingnut pro-life views. He's not out there killing abortion doctors and protesting at clinics, but he firmly believes women do not have the right to control their own bodies.

      by PowerChord on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:38:47 AM PDT

      •  Progressive pro-lifers

        There are a lot of progressive pro-lifers out there. Many, if they actually had that kind of power, would not reverse Roe vs. Wade, because they know the harm it would cause, and they know that ultimately legal sanctions would not result in fewer abortions taking place.

        I myself am not at a place where I can discuss this issue in forums like this, because I know they are often openly hostile toward any kind of pro-life views. And, again, for myself, when an atmosphere starts to feel that hostile and unaccepting to me, it is not as easy to work toward common goals--because I really need to do that kind of (activist) work in a place that feels accepting and welcoming. Not sure I am expressing this well--okay, I know I'm not. I guess I am clumsily saying that I don't personally want to talk about this issue here, but I do want to point to some resources, for people who are interested and open to them:

        http://prolife.liberals.com/
        http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

        Pro-life Democrats? by Jim Wallis
        http://www.beliefnet.com/story/150/story_15032_1.html
        

        by Renee in Ohio on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 11:34:34 AM PDT

        •  "Progressive" and "Pro-Life"

          ....are oxymorons.  Period.

          The very notion that the GOVERNMENT should control the decisions and bodies of women is anathema to virtually every political, moral and spiritual belief I have.

          by PowerChord on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 02:41:59 PM PDT

          •  This is narrow minded BS

            You do the Progressive movement a disservice when you reject people because their opinion on one issue may differ from yours.  Pro-lifers... REAL Pro-lifers are pro-life in more aspects of their political belief than just abortion.  Real pro-lifers are anti-war and support all the things that help people live their lives.  Real pro-lifers are by definition Progressive. Those other people are just anti-abortion. They have a long way to go to prove their pro-life credentials.

            by Demetrius on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 05:47:00 PM PDT

            •  Nope. BS is....

              pretending you're "progressive," yet demanding that government intrude into the bedroom of every woman in the world to enforce YOUR narrow definition of what's moral and what isn't -- and throwing innocent women in jail who disagree with your bizarre beliefs.

              by PowerChord on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 11:42:02 AM PDT

        •  FULL DISCLOSURE

          The GodlessProlifers.org site is run by a radical REPUBLICAN wingnut named Matt Wallace, who openly admits "I am a Republican and a conservative..." who "opposes the genocide of abortion used as a birth control substitute..."

          In addition, the so-called "pro-life.liberals.com" website was run by an individual named Jennifer Roth, a former visiting research programmer with the University of Illinois in their animal sciences department.

          She brags she was able to convince a whopping 45 people to join her "world-wide organization."
          

          by PowerChord on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 03:09:22 PM PDT

  •  Jim Wallis

    Did you see him on the Daily Show?  Good start.

    by jasonwhat on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 06:55:57 AM PDT

  •  perhaps...

    Perhaps progressive Christians can start by organizing a campaign to convince the media to present a balanced view of Christianity.  For those of us watching the news or reading the paper, you would never know that there is a progressive side of Christianity.  

    Everytime Dobson or Falwell appear on the news to "represent" the christian point of view, there should be a progressive Christian sitting right next to them to present their view.  Let people judge for themselves who represents their views.  The one spewing hatred, or the one representing acceptance and love.

    by bcorbs on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:11:56 AM PDT

  •  Progressives have a hard time finding spokespeople

    because we value diversity and tolerance. We are comfortable living as part of tangential circles of very different communities. One result of this happy ability to co-exist is that no single individual serves very well as the person speaking of values on our behalf.

    Let me give a practical example: here in California, we spent the 90s trying (and failing) to hold off various initiative measures which aimed to disadvantage the emerging majority of color. Anti-immigrant, anti-affirmative action, anti-bilingual ed...on none of these could we find spokespeople who spoke across the various communities of color and to white people of good will -- our base spoke a cacaphony of different languages.

    In 2003 we finally defeated one of these things (a measure to keep the state from finding out what it was doing by outlawing the collection of racial information). Who proved able to talk across the noise to a majority? Former Surgeon General C. Everret Koop, for goodness sakes! Not my idea of a moral voice to follow, but someone who a majority would listen to.

    What do I learn from this: a person so can speak to values to a US majority from the progressive side will probably have establishment credentials (both experiential and academic), will probably be white and male, and will couch their views as common sense as much as a moral imperative.

    Oh for another MLK, but that kind of appeal requires extraordinary charisma, something our current society has no real tolerance for. We do celebrity instead.

    by janinsanfran on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:24:02 AM PDT

•  Great post Renee

  as always.  :)

  by Descrates on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 09:59:16 PM PDT

•  tolerance = pro-gay

  so now diversity, inclusion, tolerance, etc., will be outlawed.

  it follows that christian will mean uniquely evangelical, there will be no compassion or forgiveness, and ethnic/racial differences will be bad.

  we will all have to become white, american, evangelical, conservative, unquestioning.

  life will be so simple, f

  by democat on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 06:28:16 AM PDT

  •  hallelujah, brother!

    hang on, i'm jewish. and agnostic.

    never mind.

    by gracchus on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 07:14:19 AM PDT

  •  There's a group called Stormfront

    That thinks fondly of this vision.

    They also think fondly of Mr. Adolph.

    by cskendrick on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:19:38 AM PDT

•  The video

  They showed some clips of the video on my local news. It was the first time in a while I've felt sad--not just angry, but sad. There were a bunch of happy children's show characters all singing and dancing with big smiles on their faces. All they were saying was to be tolerant of people.

  Yet now even that's been corrupted. People like Dobson just ruin everything. There's nothing more sophisticated I can say about it. He's like the surly kid who shows up at a child's birthday party and point out why the party stinks or why the child's new toy is stupid.

  by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 07:08:43 AM PDT

  •  And it's hilarious

    how these anti-sex people manage to find sex everywhere they look.

    Remember that RWCM brouhaha over some Disney character's "erection?" [was it Pinnochio?]

    These people are so pathetic.

    by dfarrah on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:15:27 AM PDT

    •  exactly

      there's nothing they can't ruin.

      As far as the Disney thing, I believe you're referring to the Litte Mermaid movie poster. Part of her father's castle had a suspiciously phallic appearance. Urban legend shrine snopes.com claims that it's just coincidence, but you tell me if this just "accidentally" looks like a schlong (all images courtesy of snopes.com):

      

      Of course it's a bit odd that someone noticed such a small detail on a busy poster. Here it is:

      

      Although this particular artist didn't even work for Disney, I do think Disney animators probably threw things like that in there once in a while just for kicks (after all, they were adults, usually men, drawing kids' cartoons for a living). There was also controversy over whether the word "sex" appears in a cloud of dust in The Lion King. Again, you can judge for yourself, but I sure see it:

      

      Still, it's one thing to spot some hidden dirty humor, but another to claim that every beloved cartoon character is trying to turn Our Children queer.

      by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:26:00 AM PDT

      •  No, it wasn't a still-life poster

        but some movement a cartoon character made with his leg.  The news played the film very slowly, and the character was simply lifting his foot and bending his knee.

        For some reason, I can't pull up the pictures you provide...

        Wow, I had no idea all the stuff I've been missing.

        by dfarrah on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 07:40:33 PM PDT

    •  Pinnochio got a woody?

      I don't remember that part.

      by fishhead on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:28:44 AM PDT

    •  James "I see gay people" Dobson

      You're right--these people are nuts.  It's a cartoon, and only a bastard of the lowest sort can take a positve, loving, fun and hopeful message and say it's evil.  

      Torture, rape, bombings in Iraq? That's OK. No comment there from he and his ilk. Besides, cheerleaders form human pyramids every day in this country!

      /snark.

      by AuntiePeachy on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:06:47 AM PDT

•  Something about you and I

  Renee, I can't get over the synchronicities.  I read you a year ago on the Dean blog.  Read you here this Fall.  Read you are a psychologist.  Read that you've joined the Episcopalians.

  Are you going to be attending classes with me too?

  I'm in sync with you!  Psychologist.  For peace and social justice.  Concerned about the danger of the religious right.  Just joined the Episcopalians so I can study for the priesthood - in my desperation for some of us on the left to have the credentials so they can't attack us for lack of them when we stand up for the real message of the gospels.

  I'll be 60 in March, but it's never too late!

  by Freudian Slipper on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 07:12:35 AM PDT

  •  Wow...

    It is pretty amazing--I've run across a lot of these  synchronicities myself online. These connections through the internet have made my life so much richer than I could ever have imagined.

    Should clarify that I am not actually a psychologist, but I teach psychology. I did everything but the dissertation and the internship.

    The priest thing...wow again! I keep thinking about that. It just doesn't seem practical with kids' education to think about. But I keep thinking...

    by Renee in Ohio on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 12:00:57 PM PDT

    •  The important thing

      is that you "keep thinking."  Teaching.  Writing.  Whatever.  Don't worry about the dissertation, etc.  Those kids are very important.  And down the road, who knows?  I can tell you for sure that psychology takes you so far only and spirituality has no ceiling!

      I've been fortunate to reach the age I am, to have saved enough to finance this, to have a small private practice, and a husband who, after having a mini crisis each time I get involved in something new, simply adjusts and moves on.  

      I appreciate your diaries and your posts and I'm proud to be a fellow human in these important causes of our day.

      If "People of Wisdom" rings a bell, I accidentally founded that group - and we consider you one of us!

      by Freudian Slipper on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 02:23:38 PM PDT

•  Mistaken identity

  This seems to be another case where the right should have looked before they leaped. The Children's video was put on by a group, the We Are Family Foundation promoting tolerance and reviving the old song, "We are family!"

  There is also a GLBT group called We are Family and it is an organization supporting gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender youth. They are distinctly different organizations.

  But because Dobson thought that  the GLBT group put out the video, he "found" promotion of "gay lifestyle" in a video that was promoting diversity and tolerance.

  It is revealing of the paranoia that pervades religious right thinking that a video that promotes diversity and tolerance would be seen as aimed at making kids gay.

  Perhaps all this ruckus will give publicity to these organizations, who both seem to be doing good work, and maybe Dobson will have some egg on his face.

  by jiffykeen on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 07:30:45 AM PDT

  •  because we're all fighting inner gay urges

    that's what's so damn funny about them fighting against exposing kids to homosexuality: the idea that so many (all?) of us are struggling - valiantly! - against the demonic inner gay urges.  we're fighting the good fight, and the heteros are winning so far!  we're not givin in to that oh-so-compelling urge to bugger!

    but we just can't let kids know that WE KNOW of the inner urge to bugger!  early exposure might lead to less of us denying our secret inner gayness, after all.  

    gee, I wonder why these religious right leaders are so afeared of us giving in to the implied relentless gay urges.  

    by LegalSpice on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:14:43 AM PDT

  •  The extreme right really does hate tolerance...

    I will occasionally wander over to Free Republic, "know thine enemy" and all that...I'm always shocked by the total lack of empathy, tolerance, objectivity (not to mention familiarity with the English grammar:)

    I think they really despise us most BECAUSE we promote tolerance.

    I can't think of any reason for working people to vote and act against their own interest, unless they really are willing to sacrifice anything for the sake of bigotry. ???
    

    by rcvanoz on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:43:11 AM PDT

    •  Truth Not Tolerance

      I've actually seen that on a bumper sticker.  These people believe so strongly that they know the absolute Truth that the idea that they should put up with any alternative ideas is insulting to them.

      by Demetrius on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 06:01:14 PM PDT

•  asdf

  As it's largely ignored by the rapture right, the sermon on the mount might be a good place to start again from.
  As Ghandi said, when you have no power, all you can do is lead.
  

  by UniC on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 07:46:19 AM PDT

•  Renee, if you haven't, you should send this post..

  as an LTE/opinion piece to all the papers...

  I've always enjoyed your posts; like Freudian Slipper above, I got to know your voice via the Dean blog.

  Thanks for a great post...

  by PitPat on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 07:56:15 AM PDT

•  More "Dobsonite" hate mongering...

  ... and I think more of us should start calling these people "Dobsonites", "Falwellites" etc, instead of letting them continue to co-opt Christianity as a hate-filled end-times death cult.

  This has been the 'traditional' way of dealing with heresy and aposty [hate to use those negative, loaded terms, but there you go...] Sometimes, it goes legit [Martin Luther, anyone?] but often these movements, rightly or wrongly, end up in the dustbin of history where Dobson and his ilk belong.

  These are personality cults based on these mini-mullahs who create there own beliefs, sayings, theology, etc then try to wrap them up in Christianity to get people to swallow the whole poison pill -- and they obviously succeed.

  Sad as this is, it is a good thing that he continues to go off the deep end, seeing gays in every cartoon, puppy and flower.  He goes a great length towards discrediting himself, giving Progressives less distance to cover.

  by Timoteo on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:00:36 AM PDT

  •  You get a 4 for

    mini-mullahs.

    I'll throw in a grammatical correction for free!  their own beliefs...   ;)

    by arielle on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:29:30 AM PDT

  •  Hey ! That was my slogan.......

    "hate-filled end-times death cult" !  Mine, mine I say !

    Although my version was a little different - it was "End-time Christian mystery death-cult".

    Different enough..... I guess we can share it.

    by Troutfishing on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:08:14 AM PDT

•  Another Take

  I actually saw this Spongebob thing as positive.  This is so crazy, so far outside mainstream thinking, that possibly even conservatives will have to step back and say to themselves "Why are we aligned with this guy?"

  I said to my daughter last night that I wanted Dobson to keep talking because the more he talks, the crazier he sounds.  Some of these people are now so confident of their power that they are going to self-destruct.  

  by Getreal1246 on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:08:01 AM PDT

  •  Crazy Like a Fox

    "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
    -- Anian Nin

    I have listed to Democrats for a decade talk about Republicans self-destructing but it hasn't happened yet.  All the Republicans have done is consolidate their power.

    I am reminded of a conversation I had a decade ago with a friend who was a back-bencher in the my state party leadership.  I asked him when the Democratic Party would address problem of talk radio and the influence of talk radio on moderate and conservative independent voters.  He replied that it wasn't necessary to do anything because everyone thinks Limbaugh is too radical and nobody takes him seriously.  Is that so...  

    by Absalom on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:23:24 AM PDT

•  Which of These Cartoons is Gay?

  A. Winnie-the-Pooh
  B. Mighty Mouse
  C. Rocky the Flying Squirrel
  D. Tweety Bird
  E. Bugs Bunny
  F. Goofy
  G. Sneezy the Dwarf
  H. Jughead from Archie
  I. Zonker in Doonesbury
  J. Tinker Bell

  by easong on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:21:14 AM PDT

  •  Peanuts

    Peppermint Patty and Marcie - maybe Linus, too.  I always liked Linus best, and now I'm  gay as a goose.  Damn you, Charles Schulz!

    by fishhead on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 08:31:15 AM PDT

    •  Geese are gay??

      Geez--nobody tells me anything!

      For example, I went most of my life not knowing that white people are said to smell like wet dogs when they come in out of the rain.

      http://isbndb.com/d/book/why_do_white_people_smell_like_wet_dogs_when_they_come_out_o.html

      by Renee in Ohio on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 11:45:50 AM PDT

      •  FISHHEAD

        is gay?  Man, am I shocked...

        by pastordan on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 02:55:07 PM PDT

  •  ALL OF THEM, you fool ! / NT

    by Troutfishing on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:09:38 AM PDT

•  There was another diary on Spongebob...

  today ( by jimmy crackcorn ). It referenced an MSNBC article on the controversy which had this immortal acronym for spongebob-haters :

  "Creepy, Rigid, Arrogant, Cruel, Know-It-All, Pompous, Obnoxious And Treacherous -- Better Known By The Acronym -  

  C.R.A.C.K.P.O.T."

  by Troutfishing on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:15:50 AM PDT

•  Additional thoughts

  In response to bittergirl asking in the Open thread:

  http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/1/21/21119/7120/16#16

  What can be done?  The religious right seems to be organized and have strategy meetings every 6 weeks or so.  Is that something that could be organized with a progressive agenda for the religious left?

  I responded:

  I met my priest at a local coffee house last week--felt it was past time to sit down and have another talk about life, the universe, and everything. He noted that he is seeing concerns and support even from rural churches that we normally wouldn't think of as "progressive"--this in response to the recent election in general, and in particular the hateful version of Christianity that came into the spotlight when Blackwell and others were pushing Issue 1. We even have this from Bishop Herbert Thompson--whose views are generally more conservative than those those I find at my progressive Episcopal church:

  http://www.episcopal-dso.org/Dec04Inc/Page%203Dec04.pdf

  In the broader arena of communication, I want to convene a gathering of leaders of the Episcopal Church and other mainline denominations to articulate and put forth a public image of the Christian Church different from the one that's portrayed by the extremists of the religious right. They do not and must not be seen as speaking for us. We have a vocation to communicate the Christian faith to that part of our secularized pluralist society that is not involved with the church.
  
  

  I just saw this conference mentioned in one of the diaries tonight:

  http://www.opencenter.org/Trainings/Religious_Right_Agenda.html

  (It was pointed out that this link came from the diary "Challenging the Christian Right"
  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/21/184241/678

  Jim Wallis of Sojourners wrote "Confessing Christ in a World of Violence"

  http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&issue=041020#3

  There have been a number of efforts I could point to, but here are just a few:

  http://www.cafeteriacatholics.com
  
  http://www.paxchristiusa.org/
  
  http://www.everyvoice.org/lev/index.php
  
  http://www.clnnlc.org/
  
  http://www.tonycampolo.org/
  
  http://www.faithfulamerica.org/home.htm

  http://www.thevillagegate.org/
  
  Ultimately, though, I believe that we need to form a more cooperative partnership with the secular left. If Martin Luther King can be so fully embraced (as he was this week) by secular Democratic/liberal blogs, then it shouldn't be that much of a stretch to embrace (even link to) modern day religious progressives who speak with similarly prophetic voices.

  by Renee in Ohio on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:18:39 AM PDT

•  Comparing Apples to Oranges

  The discussion is in terms of religious left citizens vs. religious right leaders. That's a nasty power mismatch.

  What you grassroots need to do is rally your leadership to become a political force.

  You the grassroots can start a movement, you can sustain it with your time and energy, but in a corporate culture against a corporate state and a corporate religious opposition, you need a visible and respectable movement leadership that is a logical analogue to the Falwells and Dobsons of the right.

  This is not a pure Democratic Party matter--the religious right was organizing in the 1960's specifically to counter the religious left. Apples-to-apples; they figured they would influence society best by dealing with the force from their own sphere that stood in their way.

  If you can create a religious left movement it would be a natural ally of the Democratic Party so go to it!

  by Gooserock on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:20:11 AM PDT

•  Gay church's take on SpongeBob debate

  I've been doing Google news searches to see if anyone else is discussint this issue from a progressive religious perspective. I just found this article:

  The other side: gay church's take on SpongeBob debate

  http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1305509&secid=1

  While some may target elements of popular culture like SpongeBob, Tinky-Winky or Batman and Robin for promoting a homosexual lifestyle, some scholars and clergy point to the Bible itself for stories of homosexual relationships between major Biblical figures.

  The Metropolitan Community Church is a "progressive Christian church with a ministry for all but an outreach to gay, lesbian, trans-gendered and bi-sexual community and anyone who feels marginalized in society," said the Rev. Nori Rost of the Pikes Peak MCC.

  The MCC Web site hosts an article by the Rev. Nancy L. Wilson, a member of the Metropolitan Community Churches Board of Elders, that re-examines the relationships between Ruth and Naomi and Jonathan and David, among others.
  ---
  The legendary friendship between the future King David and Jonathan, King Saul's son, was also likely a sexual one, according to Wilson. "This tragic triangle of passion, jealousy and political intrigue between Saul, Jonathan and David leads to one of the most direct expressions of same-sex love in the Bible: 'I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; you have been very pleasant to me. Your love to me was more wonderful than the love of women.' (II Samuel 1:26)"

  To read Wilson's full article, go to www.mccchurch.org.

  Rost of the local MCC said that the Bible should be read with an understanding of the times it was written in and who it was written for. Scriptures that condemn homosexual acts were actually targeting pagan sex rites, she said.

  "They don't deal with homosexuality (in and of itself)," she said. "They don't have any bearing on two men falling in love or two women falling in love and wanting to raise a family."

  Even the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is misconstrued, she said. God was planning to destroy the two cities before any sexual violence was attempted against the angels visiting Lot, she said, and the mob's threats are not indicative of a modern gay lifestyle.

  "Certainly it wasn't about two guys showing up at the door and asking these two angels out on a date," she said, referring to Genesis 19.

  Scriptural interpretation aside, Focus on the Family's fear of SpongeBob is misplaced, she said.

  "If you believe in a god of justice and righteousness who will protect you, surely he will protect you and your children from an evil cartoon," she said. "Cannot God protect them from SpongeBob?"

  Rost argues that preaching from fear is the last thing Jesus would do.

  "That's where Focus on the Family is missing the boat," she said. "They do a lot of good, but when they come from a place of fear of what is different, what is marginalized, they completely miss the point of Jesus' message, which is, 'you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.'''

  by Renee in Ohio on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:30:32 AM PDT

•  James Wolcott

  who suggests we start referring to Dobson as SpongeDob Stickypants, has a hilarious reaction
  to all this nonsense, a (half)jesting look at old TV westerns.

  Sample quote:
  

  
  But no Warner Brothers Western promotes the gay lifestyle more than Lawman, starring John Russell and Peter Brown. "John Russell, a 6'4" ramrod straight, ex-Marine with the most compelling steely gaze on television, embodied the courageous, no-nonsense Marshal Dan Troop," says a Lawman fan site. Peter Brown played his young deputy, and theirs was a stern daddy/ relationship seething with subtext. "The series generally avoided sentimentality, but for those who looked for it, the bond between the two characters was even stronger than the words exchanged would suggest." The nature of that bond is indicated in the opening credits, where sheriff would toss his rifle to his handsome deputy, who "hefted it with approval." Oh I just bet he hefted it with approval.
  

  
  

  by pakal on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:42:50 AM PDT

•  Just out of sheer, morbid curiosity......

  I'm wondering if Rev. Phelps has anything to say about this? LOL

  by djtyg on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:44:25 AM PDT

  •  Nothing on his website....

    GodHatesAmerica.com

    But you can read why Reggie White is in hell..... and all about "fag feces"....

    by PowerChord on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:48:31 AM PDT

•  Website mix up?

  It seems to me that Dobson has to attack any framing of family that does not come from his organization.  As long he is allowed to define family, he can hide hateful rhetoric behind that definition.  If the fundamental definition of what constitues a family is no longer in is his hands, it makes it harder for him to push his agenda.  I think that the attempts to define family by the "We Are Family Foundation" are far more threatening to Dobson than those of the gay advocacy group "We are Family."  He can write off the gay advocacy groups message as purely a gay message, while the foundation's message is much more all inclusive.

  by Tom Allison on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 09:45:43 AM PDT

•  The

  Lone Ranger and Tonto...who knew???

  by Momagainstthedraft on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 10:00:40 AM PDT

•  Renee

  Hope you're still reading this. I'm thinking that somebody needs to get a group together to actively cultivate the religious left message.  Maybe we can get it funded by some sympathetic billionaire?

  by pastordan on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 02:57:41 PM PDT

  •  Still reading...

    ...but no clue. It would be nice to see some joint effort/pooled resources, if someone could do that. But, for myself, say anything to me that even resembles the word "organize", and I get kind of woozy.

    by Renee in Ohio on Sat Jan 22, 2005 at 05:17:11 PM PDT

•  Lefter than you?

  Another Christian denomination that is so far out it probably doesn't work to call it left or right:  Unity, my chosen church.  I believe Jesus said, "Whoever is not against us is for us," when some of his followers tried to get him to condemn those who cast out spirits in his name but were not part of his immediate group of disciples.

  by phoebesofla on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:24:01 AM PDT