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Rawstory delivers this bombshell that is going to be in the Wall Street Journal tomorrow. Looks like the entire White House Iraq Group was involved in the trashing of Joe Wilson well before Wilson started making headway with his claims.

Mr. Fitzgerald's pursuit now suggests he might be investigating not a narrow case on the leaking of the agent's name, but perhaps a broader conspiracy.

Mr. Wilson's initial complaints were made privately to reporters. He went public in a July 6 op-ed in the New York Times and in an appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press." After that, White House officials, who were attempting to discredit Mr. Wilson's claims, confirmed to some reporters that Mr. Wilson was married to a CIA official. Columnist Robert Novak published Mr. Wilson's wife's name and association with the agency in a column that suggested she had played a role in having him sent on a mission to Niger to investigate the administration's claims.

Until now, Mr. Fitzgerald appeared to be focusing on conversations between White House officials such as Mr. Libby and Karl Rove, President Bush's senior political adviser, after Mr. Wilson wrote his op-ed. The defense by Republican operatives has been that White House officials didn't name Ms. Plame, and that any discussion of her was in response to reporters' questions about Mr. Wilson, the kind of casual banter that occurs between sources and reporters.

Mr. Rove, who has already testified three times before the grand jury and was identified by a Time magazine reporter as a source for his story on Mr. Wilson, is expected to go back to the grand jury, potentially as early as today, to clarify earlier answers.

Lawyers familiar with the investigation believe that at least part of the outcome likely hangs on the inner workings of what has been dubbed the White House Iraq Group. Formed in August 2002, the group, which included Messrs. Rove and Libby, worked on setting strategy for selling the war in Iraq to the public in the months leading up to the March 2003 invasion. The group likely would have played a significant role in responding to Mr. Wilson's claims.

As if the aspens weren't quaking already, we got another bombshell on her hands.  Looks like Fitzgerald is not just zeroing on Scooter and Karl but the entire White House Iraq Group as a whole.  

Originally posted to dumbya on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:05 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Makes you wonder if Miller wasn't (4.00)
    an auxillary member of WHIG, doesn't it?

    "I just had the basic view of the American public -- it can't be that bad out there." Marine Travis Williams after 11 members of his squad were killed.

    by Steven D on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:02:41 PM PDT

    •  Oy (none)
      Another Armstrong Williams?
    •  Uh Huh (none)
      I had this thought as well.

      It's all the same fucking day, man. -- Janis Joplin

      by TracieLynn on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:52:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wonder no more... (4.00)
      Here's a reminder from Judy's time in Iraq-- she was the only reporter to have an Army unit imbedded with her rather than the other way around:

      Foer cites military and New York Times sources as saying that Miller's assignment was so sensitive that Don Rumsfeld himself signed off on it. Once embedded, Miller acted as much more than a reporter. Kurtz quotes one military officer as saying that the MET Alpha unit became a "Judith Miller team." Another officer said that Miller "came in with a plan. She was leading them... She ended up almost hijacking the mission." A third officer, a senior staffer of the 75th Exploitation Task Force, of which MET Alpha was a part, put it this way: "It's impossible to exaggerate the impact she had on the mission of this unit, and not for the better."

      from Judy Miller: How Deep Do Her Connections Run?

      Somewhere around 2001, Mr. Spock grew a beard.

      by Olds88 on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:19:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How Deep? Wish we had a press that asked that (4.00)
        Judy Miller: How Deep Do Her Connections Run?

        And when will the MSM investigate? Seems to me if the media were TRULY competitive, like say high tech is, then they would be all over this. Someone would be clawing the NYT's eyeballs out over this, ready to take the top-dog spot. But the MSM are a bunch of feudal monopolies slow-dancing in a Byzantine guild system, and loyalty to The System and its patrons is what matters. Preservation of the status quo is more important than anything else.

        No wonder they're afraid of blogs. The open source, just in time, participatory media that blogs represent is infinitely more threatening to the MSM than open source code is to Microsoft.

      •  What was the mission?????? (none)
        •  Whose? (none)
          MET Alpha's mission was to uncover WMD.

          Judy's mission was to take them on a wild goose chase while higher ups concocted stories about trailers of mass destruction and the like.

          Somewhere around 2001, Mr. Spock grew a beard.

          by Olds88 on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 07:31:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do you have links?? (none)
            Are you saying that Miller went to Iraq at the time they were searching for weapons and/or that she was reporting on the story?  What was the timeframe, if you know, that she was in Iraq and the search for WMDs.
            •  Imbedded (none)
              Judy Miller was in Iraq, imbedded with MET Alpha at the start of the war, through the invasion and fall of Baghdad. This unit was supposed to swoop in to secure the vast stockpiles of WMD as the military gained ground. She had exclusive access to this unit and any potential discoveries.

              Follow the Common Dreams link above to the Franklin Foer's long piece in New York Magazine about Judy. It's a little bitchy and covers too many pressroom catfights for my taste, but does a good job explaining her improper role with MET Alpha, though it doesn't directly quote much of the gibberish she wrote during that time.

              Somewhere around 2001, Mr. Spock grew a beard.

              by Olds88 on Thu Oct 13, 2005 at 08:34:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Per My Question In an Earlier Thread-- (none)
      Who exactly was she working for?

      Was it the WHIG or something farther removed?

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:33:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  she was embedded long before Iraq (none)
    •  New nugget from Waas that breaks new ground (none)
      From the Murray Waas article:

      Libby subsequently telephoned Miller, encouraging her to testify.

      So we have a telephone conversation and he Aspens letter?

      Wonder WTF is down that rabbit hole since we have two incidences now of Libby talking to Miller while in jail, about testifying, one by phone, one by letter.


      Mitch Gore

      Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

      by Lestatdelc on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:51:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What's down that rabbit hole.. (4.00)
        Is that Scooter flipped. Period. Couldn't take the heat, so got out of the kitchen. Which is why the investigation is focusing on the entire WHIG, probably striking a deal for Miller as well, meaning that Miller probably faced charges as well, not being a "witness" or a "journalist", but an active part of the group.

        This is our story...

        by Karmakin on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 11:10:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bet W's upset. Wouldn't want to be his kitty. (none)

      Fighting them here, so we don't have to fight over there.

      by NorCalJim on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:31:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Who's (4.00)
    all in the WH Iraq group? I wonder if they all will be indicted. This may be where the 22 indictments rumor comes from.

    I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:03:58 PM PDT

    •  Rice, Hadley, Karen Hughes, Andy Card (none)
      few others as well.
      •  a jaw popper of a story in WSJ /Plame (none)
        the article not yet posted for access. Dr. Fitz appears to be up to radical surgery, amputations -(indictments) beyond the outing of Plame. Looks like investigation includes "the marketing campaign" on beating the drums of war. Betcha it takes in who forged Niger doc? No wonder Wilson was a threat - not just a thorn.

        Memory jog and a  hint "mushroom cloud" and the Downing Street memos on fixing the intelligence to justify going to war. Cream floats and we now understand the full meaning of Scooter's line to JM "aspens turning... all connected at the roots."
        Who could Fitz's little helpers be? Also thinking here the CIA bites back.
        Don't think the wait will be much longer. Halloween is a coming and some won't be celebrating. But we'll be.
        Can someone get Cheney's doc to make a house call?

        Let's stop feeding greed. In fact, propose we make a commandment: The greedy shall not be fed.

        by idredit on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:31:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  provide link or wait till it comes (none)
          out. People will think you are fanning the fire. Let's not let these comments get to over the top until we have the text and proof that it's in the paper. When will this shoe drop? Tonight?

          *This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

          by Chamonix on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:44:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you may have a point, my bad (4.00)
            but for the moment there are detailed excerpts from WSJ and WApo via warandpiece at:

            Let's stop feeding greed. In fact, propose we make a commandment: The greedy shall not be fed.

            by idredit on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:10:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks for the link (none)
              Wow, the WSJ article is way more damning than the rawstory piece. That's huge. And from the conservative WSJ!
              •  WSJ is best corporate crime blotter (none)
                While its editorial pages routinely lie and are to the right of Ivan The Terrible, WSJ news pages are famous for digging into the corporate crime blotter. The WSJ has cornered the market on covering corporate greed and that is its major value as a gatherer of news. Brilliant reporters and editors on the news side. Dishonest leadership on the opinion pages, panderers to all that is base and corrupt in the political realm.
        •  Totally convinced (4.00)
          WHIG could have forged the Niger document themselves,  they needed something sexy to sell the war. Voila, Saddam sitting on a stock pile of nuclear weapons, we must fight now.
          •  Plus, very much Rove's MO to (4.00)
            fake/forge documents--Hughes and Bartlett were in on the TANG monkey business as well, trotting down to Texas before the first time Bush was elected, making sure that everything was tidied away.  Bill Burkett (I know, I know, may not be the most stellar source) stated that they were both hanging around at the National Guard facility where and when the TANG docs from Bush's records were being sorted/shredded.  They likely took away with them the most damning ones (the memos by Bush's superior officer), held onto them, and then Rove used facsimiles of the originals, with carefully imbedded errors, to deploy when/if needed.  Heh heh--wonder if Rove held onto the originals to use as leverage in case BushCo ever tried to get rid of him....

            ...the White House will be adorned by a downright moron...H.L. Mencken

            by bibble on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:17:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Can you say (none)
              presidential pardon?  It won't matter if he has those documents or not, Rove is very well protected from anything and everything.  He'll get a pardon regardless.  The pictures he must have from all of the years of wiping Jr.'s ass...  

              Tar, feather, meet Rove.

              Healing BEGINS with impeachment...

              by valeria on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 04:49:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Timing (4.00)
            Probably not, given the timing. The burglary in the Niger embassy in Rome took place before BushCo was inaugurated (very early January 2001) and the reports based on the forgeries came in Feburary 2002.

            Which is not to say the same people weren't involved. But the conspiracy behind the Niger documents preceded the formation of WHIG.

            This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

            by emptywheel on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 02:25:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Overlooked aspect... (4.00)
          ... is the CIA. They were the ones that complained about the Plame outing to DOJ. The CIA can make even Cheney and Rove look like amateurs when it comes to skulduggery. Their agents take their responsibilities quite seriously I would imagine and no chickenhawks with small-penis-syndrome are going to best them at what they do best. They bungle things from time to time, they're only human, and they have done some borderline evil things in the past but you can't discount the fact that the CIA is about getting the TRUTH to the highest levels of government. If they're singing to Fitz about what they know then this administration could be toast. LOL

          A pessimist sees a glass half empty. I see a paper cup with holes punched in it.

          by Paper Cup on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:52:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Turning... connected at the roots... good! (none)
      •  But who's (4.00)
        going to explain all the good, peace-loving, pro-democracy intentions behind our foreign policy if Karen Hughes is wisked away? Oh Karen, please don't go.

        "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

        by machopicasso on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:44:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Libby and Matalin, too n/t (none)
      •  i guess condi won't get to be veep now. (none)
        ole snagletooth can't lie to fitz.
    •  Here is a list of known players (4.00)
      •  21 known players! (4.00)
        And they are (drumroll, please):

        Karl Rove
        I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
        Condoleezza Rice
        Stephen Hadley
        Andrew Card
        Alberto Gonzales
        Mary Matalin
        Ari Fleischer
        Susan Ralston
        Israel Hernandez
        John Hannah
        Scott McClellan
        Dan Bartlett
        Claire Buchan
        Catherine Martin
        Colin Powell
        Karen Hughes
        Adam Levine
        Bob Joseph
        Vice President Dick Cheney
        President George W. Bush

        The ThinkProgress link has a capsule on each.

        Chaos, fear, dread. My work here is done.

        by madhaus on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:09:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  21 member, 22 indictments (4.00)
          Matalin flipped. Won't indict W. So who gets the extras? A couple for Rove and Libby!

          "I ain't always right, but I've never been wrong - seldom turns out the way it does in a song."

          by Glic on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:15:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I wouldn't write off chimpy (4.00)
            as a recipient of the 'unindicted co-conspiritor' award.

            'Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it'. - GBS

            by stevej on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:16:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Is it possible (4.00)
              ..for an unindicted co-conspirator to issue a pardon?
              •  Ooooooh! (4.00)
                GOOD question!

                Legally, maybe?   Having the people accept it without rioting?  Another matter....

                "...had he been captain of the Titanic, Bush would have ordered the ship to back up and ram it again." ...with thanks to John Steinburg

                by revsue on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:02:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Legality (none)
                The President has very, very broad powers of pardon and reprieve. He is strictly limited, however, in matters involving impeachment.

                That would probably be interpreted to mean that a person having been impeached and convicted is ineligible for pardon for that offense. It might also mean that a President under impeachment (but not yet voted out of office) would be temporarily barred from issuing pardons--but that is a stretch reading. Depends on how strictly you construe.

                I honestly haven't looked up any case law on this point, though it should be limited...only A. Johnson and Clinton were even in such a position. Nixon was never impeached, though the House was close to voting on articles of impeachment at the time of his resignation, and he didn't issue any pardons for Watergate (the plumbers group didn't finish in the courts until 77-78).

          •  Bolton (4.00)
            I don't see John Bolton on that list...he would make 22.
            •  and he's surely there (none)
              If the list is really that extensive, then Bolton is almost certainly on it.  He was in a position to know, a core neocon, part of the arrogant anything-goes wing, and one of Judy's visitors in jail.

              "Mr Pres, what's your opinion on Roe vs Wade?" "I don't care how they get out of New Orleans!"

              by Leggy Starlitz on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:08:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Bolton could flip, too (none)
                My impression at this point is that Bolton is a rude bastard and has what we consider to be insane views but that he is a patriotic American who wants to do the right thing. If he comes to see that Cheney and Rove are no friends of democracy, then maybe he will end up on the side of the angels.

                Why doesn't Al Qaeda bomb our subways every morning? Because most people in the world are nice, peaceful people. The number of people who really want to blow up 100 commuters and 1 baby who's on its way to daycare is small.

                Similarly, why don't dictators take over the White House every year? Because most Americans -- even those who disagree with us, bitterly, about important issues -- actually want to live in something like a democracy. If push comes to shove, then I think that even a lot of wingnuts will see that Rovians who push for one-party rule and organize anonymous whisper campaigns to destroy peoople's lives are an unnecessary evil.

            •  Add (4.00)
              the male prostitute Gannon

              Go Red Sox! See you next year!

              by MikeBaseball on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:11:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Richard Perle? n/t (4.00)

            It's all the same fucking day, man. -- Janis Joplin

            by TracieLynn on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:50:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wolfowitz? (4.00)
              He's been part of this from the beginning.

              You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on. -- George W. Bush

              by KTinOhio on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:32:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Totally agree KT (none)
                I have had my eye on Wolfie for over 2 years now. He is on my list below. He wanted this war just as much as Cheney.

                *This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

                by Chamonix on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:45:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Harriet Miers? (none)
                  For "legal" advise
                •  But he wanted the war for reasonable reasons (none)
                  Someone like Wolfowitz clearly thought that we needed to fight the war to protect the Middle East from a guy who could have been worse than Hitler.

                  Now we can see that Hussein was just playing tough to try to maintain control over a country that's not so easy to control. But anyone who accepted Wolfowitz's premises -- that Hussein was going around letting his sons rape girls for fun and brewing up batches of WMD -- might have agreed with Cheney's conclusions.

                  Also, Wolfowitz is Jewish and not necessarily a wingnut, and I think you see signs that the White House (and certainly more conservative factions within the Wingnut Party) would like to back out of Iraq gracefully by blaming it on the Jews. This, I think, is what a lot of wingnuts would like to say, "No, we didn't go in because Bush wanted to get oil riches and create a global American hegemony. We did it because those neocon Joos sprinkled Joo spores on our fine president and led him astray."

                  So, on the one hand, you could be right. On the other hand, it could still be that neocons who aren't actually wingnuts will do battle with the genuine wingnuts and save the day.

                •  Wolfie, Feith, etc. (none)
                  this all depends on how far Fitzgerald goes.

                  If it is truly going to involve WHIG, false reasons for the war (WMD lies, etc.) and other related issues like AIPAC, then I think we get Wolfie and Feith, etc. as well.

                  They were the ones that had the Office of Special Plans that was vetting the "intelligence" for the war, and they were the ones linked to AIPAC and Franklin, etc.

                  So if Fitzgerald expands the probe to prewar intelligence, especially if Franklin testifies/cooperates, then I think we would be looking at way more than the WHIG and the Thinkprogress list of 21.

              •  I agree, Wolfie is up to his neck in this! (none)
                I'm sorry I can't remember the source of the article but I do recall reading something about Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz acting as co-chairs for a project on developing a war plan on Irag at one of the right wing think tanks (American Enterprise Institute?) in 1999. I believe the article came out either just before the invasion or just after it.
            •  Where's Bianca? <n/t> (none)

              "Our enemy is innovative and resourceful and so are we. Our enemy never stops thinking of new ways to harm us and our country, and neither do we." G.W. Bush

              by litigatormom on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:02:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Matalin flipped? (none)
            what'd i miss?

            I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees

            by tinfoilhat on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 06:22:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Fascinating stuff. (4.00)
          Although Matalin left the White House more than six months before the leak that triggered the Valerie Plame scandal, she is reported to have testified before the grand jury of Independent Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald. (Notes and records of WHIG meetings were subpoenaed by Fitzgerald in January 2004.) -- Wikipedia
          •  Here's a post with the WSJ text (4.00)
            You can read much of tomorrow's article here. The remark about WHIG is (somewhat) in passing.  

            "[I]n all due respect to your profession [journalism], you do a very good job of protecting the leakers." -- Bush on Oct 7, 2003

            by QuickSilver on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:24:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  My guess (4.00)
            is Card has flipped (or will) as well. Note, this is just my opinion, but he never seemed like a real insider: he once publicly bemoaned Karen Hughes' departure because it would leave Rove in control, and he is the author of the famous "you don't introduce a new product in August" line. These statements suggest to me that he isn't close or deeply committed to the Neocon mission-- and probably not eager to go to jail for it.

            Somewhere around 2001, Mr. Spock grew a beard.

            by Olds88 on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:25:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  You forgot the gatekeeper (4.00)
          Wasn't Miers the gatekeeper to Bush's desk?  She was  Bush's personal lawyer, White House staff secretary, and Deputy Chief of Staff for Policy at some time during the last 5 years, after all; as WH staff secretary, she'd have been the gatekeeper.

          She may not have been active in the conversations, but I'll bet she counseled the president on decisions he made in relation to WHIG, either as personal lawyer or as staff secretary.

          Is she number 22?

          •  That's why the First A-hole (4.00)
            wants her on the Supreme Court N O W
            •  It's all in the timing (4.00)
              Fitz must come out and make an announcement between now and the 28th, or ask for a new grand jury or reempanel the current one.

              Just need to stall the confirmation hearings in the mean time.

              And make a Plan B around impeachment of a Justice.

              •  Miers hearings aren't supposed to begin (none)
                until first week in November, so hopefully Fitzgerald will have issued indictments by then. A part of me wants him to empanel a new grand jury when this one expires at the end of October, if it means really getting to the bottom of the corruption in the WH. Otoh, if Fitz does ask for a new grand jury, I'm afraid that his investigation will have the kibosh put on it faster than you can say "prison jumpsuit."
                •  If Bush and Cheney are convicted (none)
                  Do Roberts and Miers get to stay on the Supreme Court? Seems to me that a President tried and convicted of treason should have all his appointments revisited, no?

                  "Unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly there is no possible way we can remain free" - Frank Burns

                  by Central Scrutinizer on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:06:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  why? (none)
                    I don't see any legal/constitutional justification for it.  Roberts was approved when Bush was not charged with anything, and still sitting president. Miers isn't approved yet, and I'm half betting she won't be.

                    "Mr Pres, what's your opinion on Roe vs Wade?" "I don't care how they get out of New Orleans!"

                    by Leggy Starlitz on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:14:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  There haven't been any investigations (none)
                      into his crimes due to the complicit Republican Congress. If the Democrats win the majority in 2006 they will immediately begin investigations into Iraq/Enron/Medicare/Torture/Ohio/Diebold/Plame/Halliburton/9/11/Delay/Frist etc etc. I assume there will be multiple convictions of many/all of the top leadership of the Republican party and administration that should invalidate many of their corrupt decisions shouldn't it? I'm such a dreamer, like the Dems could ever win the majority

                      "Unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly there is no possible way we can remain free" - Frank Burns

                      by Central Scrutinizer on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:18:15 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  why we need to save the vote (none)
                        That's why we need to do everything humanly possible to make sure HR 550, The Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act... and that is why the Republicans, desperate to prevent its passage, have introduced HR 3910,

                        that will further muck up our ability to have a verified vote, all the while conveniently allowing for Republican cover for vote tally manipulation, voter disenfranchisement and fraud.

                        From: We Can Prevent A 2006 GOP Congressional Coup!

                        You said it right, Central Scrutinizer, if the Dems win they will immediately begin investigations into

                        Iraq/Enron/Medicare/Torture/Ohio/Diebold/Plame/Halliburton/9/11/Delay/Frist etc etc.

                        The Republicans are fighting for their lives.

                        While we sit around spectating and speculating about the whole Fitzgerald drama, they are making sure it doesn't happen again.

                        Basically, Bush may go down, but the Republican revolution will just slough him off like so much dead skin (we're already seeing it with the "he's not a true conservative" movement)... and then keep in winning election after election.

                        And we're gonna keep on falling frustratingly short, and there will never be any more investigations.  Because before we can win an election, we have to win the vote.

                        It's as simple as that.

                        •  It's true, he was set up to be the patsy (none)
                          long ago. Even they can't believe how much they got accomplished with him as the figurehead.

                          "Unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly there is no possible way we can remain free" - Frank Burns

                          by Central Scrutinizer on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 06:23:57 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  How 'Bout the Real Consitutional Crisis: (none)
                    At some point it becomes legally factual that he stole election 2000 and/or 2004.

                    NOW what about those appointments?

                    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

                    by Gooserock on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:36:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I've been asking this question (none)
                    to some pretty well-versed lawyers.  My understanding is that once a person is sworn in as President, they are legally the President, no matter what.  Thus, the appointments will stand.
                    •  What if upon investigation (none)
                      It comes out that there was indeed a coup and an illegitemate seize of power that included complicity from the Supreme Court? You really can't make this shit up can you...

                      "Unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly there is no possible way we can remain free" - Frank Burns

                      by Central Scrutinizer on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 06:30:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Advised and consented (none)
                      The actual appointment is not the president's nomination, but the confirmation process upon completion of Senate's advise-and-consent confirmation hearings.

                      President does not have ultimate authority except in the case of temporary appointments made during Congressional breaks -- like Bolton's.  In this case, we're not stuck with Bolton for the entire duration of the administration.

                      [Thank God, she says under her breath...]

                •  A brand new Saturday Night Massacre (none)
                  But of course, there's no Elliot Richardson in this Department of Justice.

                  "Our enemy is innovative and resourceful and so are we. Our enemy never stops thinking of new ways to harm us and our country, and neither do we." G.W. Bush

                  by litigatormom on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:05:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  great question rayne , comments......... (none)
        •  Where's Guckert? (4.00)
          Can't leave pseudo-Marine Jeffy off the list, can we? It'd just break his fuzzy little heart if he were "cut."

          Tilting at windmills, with the proper armor and enough firepower, can be a productive effort.

          by Serephin on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:35:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Indictment Awards (4.00)
          Most Wanted & Least Likely to be Indicted:
          And the Winner Is: Dick Cheney & George W. Bush (tie)

          Most Likely to be Bunkmates in Prison:
          And the Winners Are: Karl Rove & Scooter Libby

          Most Important Indictment for 2008:
          And the Winner Is: Condoleezza Rice

          Most Satisfying Indictment of a Bush Loyalist:
          And the Winner Is: Karen Hughes

          Most Likely to be Tortured in Prison:
          And the Winner Is: Alberto Gonzales

          The Overall "I Was Just Following Orders" Award:
          And the Winner Is: Colin Powell

          Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

          by TerraByte on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:47:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "I don't think anybody could have predicted (4.00)
            that a special prosecutor would issue that many indictments."  Condi Rice, arraignment speech.

            "This was Bill Clinton's fault."  W, arraignment speech

            "What's the frequency, Kenneth?"  Dan Rather, returning to report on Karl Rove's indictment.

        •  oh, God, (4.00)
          I'm literally salivating reading those names.

          And, ok, now I'm kind of starting to tear up.  It's just a bonanza of involuntary physical reactions.

        •  Who has security clearances? (none)
          What I've often wondered about this case, and perhaps you all will know, it appears that to be liable under 50 USC 421(a) or (b), you have been within a "circle of secrecy" about the identity of the agent in question.  That is, to have had "authorized access to [that piece of] classified information."  The crime described by 421(a)/(b) consists of identifying info* leaving the circle of secrecy, and the offender is a person within the circle who causes it to travel to a person outside the circle. (*And no you blithering rightwingers, it doesn't have to be a name: Joe Wilson's spouse, and that name is ... whoa that's the woman who was supposedly with Brewster & Jennings ... is plenty of ID for the parties who might want to act hostilely on that info and thus for purpose behind the statute.)

          In common parlance, I think such membership of the circle, is called the security clearance - - with respect to all or some IDs of covert agents.

          So, am I silly to wonder whether the Pres and V-P have the greatest possible access/clearance there is?  Or are agents' IDs esoterica reserved to real CIA people?  (Which leads me to fear that perhaps the people potentially liable under 421 are unknown underlings in CIA, who will thrown into the volcano and all the aforesaid bigshots are untouched.)  Then, work down from there.  Their biggest Iago's like Rove, Libby, etc., also had the relevant clearances?

          Also, 50 USC 422(b) creates a special rule for 421, restricting who can be liable on a conspiracy or aid-and-abet basis.  Per 422(b)(2)(B), it would have to be other people in that same circle of secrecy.  That is, suppose - - oh say Rove - - were the big mover behind the whole plan, but was not in "the circle."  Even though that seems like conspiracy were it not for 422(b), might there be a question that 422(b) gives him legal Teflon?

        •  Poland (none)
          You forgot Poland.
        •  And where are Rumsfeld and Wolfie? n/t (none)
        •  i think powell was flipped sometime ago. (none)
      •  ugh (none)
        my head hurts.  I thought I had been keeping reasonably close tabs on all this stuff, but... Bush was questioned by Fitz?!  How did I miss that?  I haven't heard anything about it lately either.  I see it was last year, but still...
    •  Members of WHIG (4.00)
      The group met weekly in the Situation Room. Among the regular participants were Karl Rove, the president's senior political adviser; communications strategists Karen Hughes, Mary Matalin and James R. Wilkinson; legislative liaison Nicholas E. Calio; and policy advisers led by Rice and her deputy, Stephen J. Hadley, along with I. Lewis Libby, Cheney's chief of staff.

      From WaPo

      Chaos, fear, dread. My work here is done.

      by madhaus on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:08:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  WHIG roster, and the List of 21: (4.00)
      WHIG, chaired by Bush's Chief of Staff Andrew Card, the regular members of which were Karl Rove, the president's senior political adviser; communications strategists Karen Hughes, Mary Matalin and James R. Wilkinson; legislative liaison Nicholas E. Calio; and policy advisers led by Rice and her deputy, Stephen J. Hadley, along with "Scooter" Libby, Cheney's Chief of Staff. In other words, WHIG included the key decision makers (Rove, Rice, Card, Cheney-via Libby), and the key propaganda specialists (Hughes, Matalin, et al.).

      Here's the commonly cited List of 21:
      21 Administration Officials Involved In Plame Leak
      The cast of administration characters with known connections to the outing of an undercover CIA agent:

      Karl Rove
      I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
      Condoleezza Rice
      Stephen Hadley
      Andrew Card
      Alberto Gonzales
      Mary Matalin
      Ari Fleischer
      Susan Ralston
      Israel Hernandez
      John Hannah
      Scott McClellan
      Dan Bartlett
      Claire Buchan
      Catherine Martin
      Colin Powell
      Karen Hughes
      Adam Levine
      Bob Joseph
      Vice President Dick Cheney
      President George W. Bush

  •  Cheney (4.00)
    Wasn't Cheney part of the WHIG?
  •  I knew Bolton had to be involved somehow (4.00)
    And he was one of the more unusual visitors logged during Judy's Jailhouse Jaunt.

    Chaos, fear, dread. My work here is done.

    by madhaus on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:05:38 PM PDT

  •  ugh (4.00)
    Get on with the indictment already. I have a special pack of Tecate Beer waiting for that special occasion. Maybe I should just crack it open while it's still fresh.

    "We must all hang together or assuredly we will all hang seperately." - Ben Franklin

    by RandyMI on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:06:20 PM PDT

  •  "confidential information" (4.00)
    I wonder what other "confidential information" they're talking about, other than Plame's status as a CIA NOC

    Oh when the frogs. . Come marching in. . Oh when the FROGS COME MARCH-ING IN!

    by pontificator on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:06:40 PM PDT

    •  How about (4.00)
      Wilson's role in going to Niger? Has the classification status of that trip ever been determined? We get so caught up in Wilson's wife, who's to say that outing HIS name, which Judy Miller's article was about to do, prior to his op-ed, wasn't a nearly equal compromise in confidential information?

      If Judy Miller turns out to have been essentially a WHIG spy at 43rd street, that also has huge implications, needless to say.

      All that needs to be wrapped up now is who reported what from the WHIG to Bush/Cheney. And hopefully for the underlings, the communications from those weeks have not been shredded, so we can one day all look over them.

      •  Wilson's report is still classified (none)
        talking about Wilson's report with people lacking security clearance is definitly a crime, cause the report is STILL classified

        so add a charge of espionoge for each time anybody mentioned Wilson's report to a news reporter

        as I see it, Rove and Libby have pretty much admitted to that particular crime

    •  help me with this (none)
      So, explain to me why in the world Bushteam decided to appoint Fitz to investigate this?

      They are so adept usually, at stacking the deck with friendly players.  Didn't Ashcroft appoint him?  If so, that would explain the stupidity on their part, cause, you know, he lost a senate race to a dead guy.

      But as tough and slick as these guys have been the last five years, how could they put themselves int his position?

      --Liberate your radio--

      by Sam Loomis on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:21:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ashcroft was forced to recuse (4.00)
        himself from the case, which left James Comey (Deputy AG) to pick who he wanted, and he chose his close friend Patrick Fitzgerald.

        See, cronyism isn't so bad, now IS it??

        If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up... - Hannah and Her Sisters

        by AlyoshaKaramazov on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:26:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, Ashcroft finally recused himself in (4.00)
        Dec 03 and Ashcroft's second in command, James Comey, a long-time friend of Fitz, appointed him.  

        The investigation was struggling along until Dec 03, when the CIA complained that the admin was circulating class info (what may be the Jun 10 INR memo) to conservative news outlets.  In the middle of Dec, the FBI paid an unannounced visit to a "private citizen" who knew of the WH activities surrounding the leak.  

        A week or so later, Ashcroft recused and Fitz hit the ground running.  

        I am just dying to know who that private citizen was.  

        •  James Carville? n/t (none)
          •  Good stuff Grandma! (n/t) (none)
          •  That's what I was wondering--or (none)
            whether Carville knew what was up through Mary Matalin, and alerted someone else, someone who might be seen as less partisan, etc.

            ...the White House will be adorned by a downright moron...H.L. Mencken

            by bibble on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:26:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Whether or not (4.00)
              it is Carville, he would certainly be advising Mary to talk openly to Fitzgerald.  And could be the very person who would give a quiet "look over here" call out to save Mary.  

              At the very least, this mess is keeping those two "love birds" (gag) off the T.V.  Carville has really leaped the shark and the 2 beyond that one.

              •  I don't know. (none)
                But, I would think that since Carville's knowledge would be second-hand, it wouldn't be as useful for trial.

                I think it more likely that it was related to the GOP USA network: political operatives acting as "journalists".  

                The WAPO article (I linked below) indicates an increased investigative presence at the CIA, who publically complained that the admin was still leaking classified info to conservative news outlets.

                The article specifically names Talon News (The GOP USA "news outlet") as having published info that came from the June INR memo.  It could be that Gannon merely cribbed his info. from the WSJ.  

                But the revelations of the CIA's complaint, the mention of Talon, specifically and the FBI visit to a citizen who knew what the WH officials were up to, leads me to believe the private citizen is related to the vast right-wing spin machine.  

        •  More please... (none)
          Please, you have to flesh this out. I've been following closely and had not heard this. Why did the FBI visit this person and what did it have to do with the case? Link?
          •  Here's the WAPO article from Dec 03: (none)
            FBI agents showed up unannounced last week at the home of a private citizen who was believed to have some knowledge of White House handling of Plame's identity, according to a source involved in the investigation. The source refused to identify the person who was interviewed, but said it was a man who had only peripheral knowledge of the case and had discussed it with officials in the White House.


            This is all I've seen on this individual.  I'm thinking it could be either Guckert (Gannon), or GOP USA owner Bobby Eberle, or some other political operative.  

            I can't find the article, but I distinctly recall that the GJ was looking into not only admin staff, but political operatives as well.  

            Since Guckert wrote about what may be the INR memo, he & Eberle would fit the description of the "private citizen".

            •  Oh they lovvves themselves that privacy (none)
              I assume if it were Guckert, the description would read "a private citizen, (uncut) ..." :-)

              I mean, how many "private citizens" of the ordinary Joe and Delores Schmuck variety would be discussing the outing of CIA agents with "officials at the White House"?

              It's gotta be Eberle or some other big fundraiser or RW patron.

              Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Denis Diderot

              by Peanut on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:55:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  LOL. Guckert would be proud. (none)
                I like Eberle 'cuz the article links conservative news outlets, mentions Talon specifically and the CIA was pissed about classified info floating out there.  

                So, FBI investigates "private citizen".  Could be Clifford May, too.  

                Speaking of Guckert, he stopped posting about this case in Sept.  Not a word about it in all of Sep and Oct, when things heated up for Rove.  

                He had been defending Rove in Jul & Aug.  Then, nothing.  Not so funny anymore, eh Jeff?

                •  OR ... Private Citizen Richard Clarke (none)
                  NSC, Counter-terrorism czar, as blunt as Joe Wilson and the WH and CIA by would both, by this point, have the (final?) draft of his book, slated for Mar/04 publication.

                  Right after 9/11, Clarke had been asked to look harder for a 9/11-Saddam connection and he made that famous crack about it making more sense to invade Mexico than Iraq.

                  If I were Ashcroft, I'd certainly run for the fucking hills recuse knowing all this stuff would come out (a) during the election campaign and/or (b) soon thereafter.

                  Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Denis Diderot

                  by Peanut on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 11:05:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You could be right. (none)
                    I'm sure he'd have a lot of tales to tell.

                    My thinking is something pushed this forward big-time in Dec03 and that something was outraged CIA lifers.  Talk about adding insult to injury: Bushco outed a NOC and to cover themselves they leak more classified info, not only to MSM, but pure hack outfits.

                    I think it was the CIA outrage and sourcing that led Justice to look at the political operative side of Rove's operation.  The fact that the visit was unannounced seems important to me: they do that when they want to catch somebody off guard, somebody who'd never think the FBI would be knocking on their door.

                    Clarke's history would indicate a potentially cooperative witness, no need for surprise visits there.

        •  A private citizen? (none)
          I didn't know that, though that's not terribly surprising that I didn't.  *sigh*
          •  alright it's time for a book (none)
            written by Murray Waas and......Howard Fineman, called..........

            .......wait for it.............

            "All the President's Minions"

            If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up... - Hannah and Her Sisters

            by AlyoshaKaramazov on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 04:54:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  What made the eagle sore? (none)
          So the question is, what connection did this private citizen have to the WH and Ashcroft both that would make the AG recuse?

          Having had Rove work on his (Ashcroft's) campaign for office wasn't enough (though you'd think...)

          Either it's something prurient (JeffyLube) or too MASSIVELY corrupt to sit on.

          Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Denis Diderot

          by Peanut on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:08:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sore? Love it. (none)
            My feeling is that Ashcroft resisted all pressure to recuse from Jul-Dec.  There was no public or media outrage.  The only pressure came from the CIA.  

            I'm inclined to believe it was a combination of things: pressure from the CIA on Ashcroft's "performance" on the WOT (the CIA would know what or wasn't bullshit from Justice) and possibly a preliminary damage assessment from the CIA that indicated serious damage.

            Ashcroft is a nutcase, but as distinguised from the neocon nuts, he may have realized that the damage, and the investigation were too serious to bury.  

            I think the private citizen spilled the beans in a form that gave the investigators the tools to nail, not an inadvertent political leak, but a wholesale conspiracy to halt further inquiry into the case for war and the Niger docs.  

            That's what I'm thinking.

          •  My eyes! Again!! Sheesh.... (none)
            Either it's something prurient (JeffyLube) or too MASSIVELY corrupt to sit on.

            Was that a pun? Please...tell me that was accidental! You people are killing me here.

        •  Citizen? (none)
          Probably Colin Powell.  He is a private citizen now
      •  Here is an article explaining how Fitz got the job (4.00)
        "Ashcroft recuses himself from CIA leak probe

        WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Attorney General John Ashcroft removed himself Tuesday from a Justice Department investigation into who may have revealed the name of a CIA operative to the media and a special prosecutor was named to head up the probe.

        Deputy U.S. Attorney General James Comey said Ashcroft reached the decision to recuse himself on his own after long consideration.

        "The issue surrounding the attorney general's recusal is not one of actual conflict of interest that arises normally when someone has a financial interest or something. The issue that he was concerned about was one of appearance. And I can't go beyond that," Comey said at a news conference.

        "The attorney general, in an abundance of caution, believed that his recusal was appropriate based on the totality of the circumstances and the facts and evidence developed at this stage of the investigation," he said. "I agree with that judgment."

        Ashcroft's recusal means that Comey, second in command at the Justice Department, automatically becomes the acting attorney general for this case and has the authority to determine how the case is investigated and, if warranted, prosecuted.

        Comey said he has appointed Patrick Fitzgerald -- currently the Chicago-based U.S. Attorney for Northern Illinois -- as the special prosecutor to take over the investigation.

        Comey described Fitzgerald as "Elliot Ness with a Harvard law degree and a sense of humor."

        "He is the perfect man for this job," Comey said. "He is an absolutely apolitical career prosecutor. He is a man with extensive experience in national security and intelligence matters."

        •  Somebody fingered Rove (none)
          Ashcroft was connected to Rove via his earlier campaign for Senate.  If someone had fingered Rove, he would have had to recuse himself 'for appearance sake'.  That's how I remember it.  Probably Novak fingered Rove and the FBI confirmed it via Carville.  Even if everybody at the WH assumed that the investigation would not result in anyting serious happening to anybody, it was important to get Ashcroft off the case so when the investigation died a natural death, no one could claim political pressure.

          This line of reasoning supports the theory that these guys thought they could get away with anything.  Ashcroft's departure was just part of the cover.

      •  I think they thought they had an out. (4.00)
        I think they thought this could all be dismissed as "just politics."

        I don't think they were prepared for Fitzgerald, because his greatest achievement has not been investigative, but imaginative. They thought they were involved in "politics as usual." Hardball, to be sure, but just politics as usual. A paradigm in which the "administration" is given a wide berth to redirect policy and reorient intelligence programs. So what if they took a few shortcuts? Surely people would understand their "decisiveness" in fighting the "global war on terror." And enemies are enemies, whether foreign or domestic.

        I don't think they thought they had done anything wrong. I think they thought they were entitled to do these things. I think they thought that the level at which they were pulling these stunts entitled them to protection -- that their policy decisions (and that's how I think they regarded the Plame outing) were beyond the reach of the courts and the law. Not because they "owned" them, but because what they were doing was "political" and not justiciable.

        You can be sure that like DeLay, the Bush "administration" will be complaining that the prosecutor is trying to "criminalize politics."

        •  You nailed it with "Entitled" (none)
          An overwhelming sense of entitlement is the cornerstone behind the arrogance and hubris of the entire Bush crime family. Barbara has always struck me as someone who believes she's the queen bitch reborn, and all her spawn are born of noble blood, destined to lead and conquer and rule - entitled to everything, accountable for nothing. Neil, George, Jeb, the twins...all of them, spoiled shits.

          The accountability moment is upon them, and there isn't enough shame in the world to heap upon the lot of them for their misdeeds. Relentless public humiliation should be heaped upon them until they consume themselves in their own quivering shame (if they're even capable of the concept of shame).

          "CAUTION: Cape does not enable user to fly." (Warning label on Batman costume.)

          by snowho on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:25:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well then (none)
          maybe the criminals should get out of politics.
        •  They couldn't spin a story for reality based Fitz (none)
          ... and so their whole strategic spin/smear machine (used for offense and defense) becomes useless in relation to the investigation.

          However treating P-Fitz as impressionable to spin (up until recently) has been a big mistake, as the group spinjob of a cover story just highlights cogs in the machine that might otherwise have remained hidden.

          Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Denis Diderot

          by Peanut on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:33:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  One could ask the same (4.00)

        question during Watergate. They were so smart, how could they be so stupid?  All the president's men!  The issues are different and the names have changed but there's something about the  arrogance of power that never changes.

        "He that sees but does not bear witness, be accursed" Book of Jubilees

        by Lying eyes on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:40:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  eerie, isn't it? (4.00)
          the watergate comparisons never end.

          In a commentary published Sunday in the Sacramento Bee, former Republican congressman Pete McCloskey recalled a visit he paid years ago to John Ehrlichman, the late former domestic policy adviser to President Richard Nixon. Ehrlichman was in federal prison at the time, having been convicted of obstruction of justice, perjury and conspiracy for helping orchestrate the crimes of Watergate.

          McCloskey said he asked Ehrlichman, an honorable World War II veteran and attorney, why he had lied for Nixon. Ehrlichman replied, "It took us three-and-a-half years to be corrupted by the power..."

      •  I think it's really pretty simple (4.00)
        They made the mistake of appointing somebody to the post of Deputy Attorney General (James Comey) who actually had a conscience, and who put his loyalty to the Constitution and the rule of law above his loyalty to party.

        When Ashcroft felt that he had to recuse himself, James Comey was next in line to supervise the investigation, and he appointed a person with similar values (Patrick Fitzgerald) to the post of special counsel.  And Mr. Fitzgerald has followed the evidence where it led him.

        This has happened before.  The first chink in the stone wall of the Nixon presidency was a Republican U.S. Attorney in Maryland who was going after corrupt Democrats in the Baltimore metropolitan area (of which there were plenty), one of whose assistants was asked by a prospective grand jury witness something to the effect of, "I don't suppose you're interested in anything about the Vice President taking bribes when he was in Maryland, are you?"  The reply was something along the lines of, "Of course we are."

        The assistant U.S. Attorney went to his boss (who happened to not only be a Republican political appointee, but the brother of a Republican U.S. Senator from Maryland), who supported him, and he reported what they had heard to Elliott Richardson, another Republican political appointee who put loyalty to the rule of law above loyalty to party and told him to press forward with the investigtion of Spriro Agnew.  And the rest, as they say, is history.

        I had the immense good fortune to have as a trial practice professor one of the Assistant U.S. Attorneys who was on the trial team that brought down a sitting Vice President.  He, and the other members of that trial team, are to me some of the greatest American heroes -- not because they risked as much as those who are willing to put their lives in jeopardy on the battlefield, but because their variety of courage is unfortunately so much less common than that on the battlefield.

        If this scandal unfolds as it increasingly appears that it might, we will have another entry for the legal "Profiles in Courage."

      •  Maybe (none)
        someone died.  Maybe that star on the wall really does stand for the death of an agent so undercover his name can't be revealed.

        Or something really goddam bad, because of outing Plame.

        That is, these guys didn't think anyone would care, maybe truly thought they were entitled, that asshole Wilson, taking us on.  Then something calamitous happens, and the CIA wants blood.  Something so calamitous that three judges, reading 8 pages of material you and I can't and probably never will see, freaked out and jailed martyr Judy.

        It's a perfect Shakespearian tragedy, ineluctably leading to its conclusion from the starting premise of human hubris.  Oh, Bush.  Your fatal flaw.

        •  Sixty years ago... (none)
          ...the attention of the world was focused on two dozen high-ranking members of the German government and military, who were on trial for crimes against humanity.

          Yes, I think the time is right for an American Nuremberg.

          You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on. -- George W. Bush

          by KTinOhio on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:59:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  tweety was just on tv saying that the next 2 weeks (none)
          would be extremely important and that bush might have to get a whole new administration. coming from tweetie, that has impact. he has been a koolaid drinker for awhile.
      •  yeah (none)
        I've been wondering this too. I think they appointed him because he was from NY and Chicago and they thought he didn't know shit about DC. He's also got two high profile indictments against terrorists, Rahman (the blind sheik) and Osama Bin Laden (1993 WTC bombing.) Most speculation that I read, early on, in the press was dismissive of the whole investigation since it involved the intersection of politics, intelligence, the press and the first amendment. Nobody thought he'd get Judy Miller sent to jail, nobody.
  •  "she's fair game" (4.00)
    ...the words that sunk the ship.

    Last two War Presidents were from Texas. Gore/Clark 2008

    by mattes on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:07:42 PM PDT

    •  As Novak said before the cover-up began (4.00)
      "I didn't dig it out. They gave it to me and I used it."


      I did not receive $ from Ketchum, U.S. Department of Ed or HHS to write this---though I wish I had.

      by Volvo Liberal on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:33:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agree, three little words and, back in history to (4.00)
      Watergate is that famous question: What did the President and Vice President know and when did they know it? Looks like we'll need new hires.

      Vice President
      Chiefs of Staff
      UN Ambassador
      Sec. of State
      National Security Advisor
      Gatekeeper general legal counsel
      and don't miss a new
      Senate Majority Leader
      House Majority Leader

      What a sweepstake. If this isn't a tsunami, then words fail.

      Let's stop feeding greed. In fact, propose we make a commandment: The greedy shall not be fed.

      by idredit on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:49:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wasn't the WHIG plan (4.00) "decapitate" the leadership in Iraq so that the rest of the population could come running towards our troops with flowers and cake?

        Perhaps we should bring the Special Prosecutor some treats to show our gratitude for being liberated.

        •  right on (none)
          at war and piece, Laura has some great excerpts from the full article. Incredible read. Join it at:

          Shame to approach drumming up a war  as a marketing  campaign "to be rolled out in August" -Card. Sick.

          Let's stop feeding greed. In fact, propose we make a commandment: The greedy shall not be fed.

          by idredit on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:41:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Holy crap! Holy Crap!!! HO-LEE! CRAP!!!!!! (4.00)
    I am floating around the room like a cartoon dog with a belly full of dog biscuits.  
    •  Cartoon Dog Only (4.00)
      Our little Eskimutt (all 24 lbs. of him) demolished half of a large pizza I had set on the kitchen table to cool. When I came back 10 minutes later to put the cooled-down pizza into the fridge, there was nary a scrap to be seen. I was wondering if I had lost my mind until I saw the little Eskimutt waddling along the hallway with his big sister, the Yellow Democrat Dog. And he sure as hell wasn't floating, either.

      On the other hand, reading this thread gives me a pretty good idea of how the Eskimutt felt when he noticed half a large pizza on the kitchen table, still warm, and completely unattended. YUM!

      ...and shit yeah it's cool And shouldn't it be - or something like that. - Robert Pollard

      by gp39m on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:30:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dogs are gluttons (4.00)
        Dogs are gluttons. Just like members of this administration.

        My wife once left a 12-lb. frozen turkey to defrost on the counter. She got home from work and the dog -- a 35-lb. Beagle-mutt -- acted all hungry and excited for dinner. Wife started to get the hungry-excited dog food.

        Then, she noticed all that was left of the still cold and icey turkey was the bones, part of the legs, and wings; breast, thighs, neck, organ bag, associated innards and a good part of the plastic wrap all gone, like 2/3rds of the entire thing gone. The mutt had eaten nearly a quarter of her own body weight. And she still wanted dinner.

        •  And then, there's my daughter's dog (4.00)
          who likes the cat food, but won't eat her food, won't eat table scraps, and will hardly eat at all when she's at my house (except for the cat food).

          I think she's scared the cat will figure out she's eating his food and hiss her to death (no claws).

          •  Our Yellow Democrat Dog (none)
            Our princess, whom we adopted as a pup two years ago (our Eskimutt adopted us this July), is a beautiful Beagle-Labrador mix. She is such a glutton that every so often my wife accidentally stuffs her so full of treats that she barfs all over the floor. And as soon as the goofy dog's finished barfing, she starts pestering my wife for more treats. The Eskimutt is quite a moocher too, but nowhere near in his big sister's league. And they are both terrified of cats.

            ...and shit yeah it's cool And shouldn't it be - or something like that. - Robert Pollard

            by gp39m on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:45:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  well, i have 3 democratic kitties who are treat (none)
              hounds so to speak. what started as a little treat at the end of the workday for me is now a morning duty. i work out of the house and usually stop around 5. now they are in here at 9 in the morning mooching. they hound the housekeeper or anyone big enough to get to their treats. i have slashed their treats in half to keep them from porking up like baloons.
  •  ferragammo (4.00)
    That means,

    Karen Hughes and Condi are going to be indicted too.

  •  I'm so afraid to hope (and spook it).... (4.00)
    You know how it is when you're afraid if you hope something too hard...

    ...but please God....

  •  Jackpot.... (4.00)
    ...This will sink the entire ship of state.

    This gets everybody.

  •  Holy Cannoli (4.00)
    Please let the invitation to the Slammer include Condi, Bolton, Cheney, Bush, Rove, Libby, Novakula, Miller(the pimp), Gonzales, Mier, Powell, Ari, Ashcroft, Bartlett, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Bremer. Am I forgetting anyone?  

    *This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

    by Chamonix on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:12:35 PM PDT

  •  Ribbit, ribbit (4.00)

    Visit my blog Penndit.
    The Republicans' worst enemy is an informed electorate.

    by Newsie8200 on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:12:41 PM PDT

  •  There had to be bull sessions (4.00)
    They all had to know. Who else knew?
  •  Wow (4.00)
    I subscribe to the WSJ, and a copy should be waiting for me in the driveway in about three hours' time. Think I'll stay up.

    "I don't see any more serious division in our country than we had in the Civil War and at other times."--Richard J. Daley

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:15:06 PM PDT

  •  So, for the WHIG experts out there (4.00)
    How much in or out of the loop was Bush in the actions and decisions of the White House Iraq Group? Was this something he occasionally stuck his head in on between other commitments, or was he sitting there at every meeting? Who were the movers and shakers here?
    •  And what's Cheneys link??? n/t (none)
    •  Well (none)
      Georgie says, "fuck Saddam, we're takin' him out" in front of Condi and a few Senators.

      I wouldn't be surprised if the WHIG reported directly to his sorry ass.

      If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up... - Hannah and Her Sisters

      by AlyoshaKaramazov on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:28:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Don't you get the feeling that they (4.00)
      ... keep him out of the loop because he just mucks things up?

      Remember tis great story from The Onion from December 11, 2002?

      Bush Won't Stop Asking Cheney If We Can Invade Yet

      WASHINGTON, DC--Vice-President Dick Cheney issued a stern admonishment to President Bush Tuesday, telling the overeager chief executive that he didn't want to hear "so much as the word 'Iraq'" for the rest of the day.

      "I told him, 'Listen, George, I promise we're going to invade Iraq, but you have to be patient,'" Cheney said. "'We need a halfway plausible casus belli. You know that, George. Now, stop bugging me about it.'"

      According to Cheney, for the past three weeks, Bush has been constantly asking if it's time to move troops into the Gulf region.

      "George is calling me, he's following me around in the halls, he's leaving notes on my desk reminding me to let him know if I hear 'any news,'" Cheney said. "He just will not sit still. I actually have a permanent red mark on my shoulder on the spot where he comes up and taps me."

      "'Hey, Dick, is it time yet?'" said Cheney, adopting a Texas drawl in imitation of the president. "'Hey, Dick, can we invade yet?'"

      In spite of repeated assurances that he will be apprised the moment the time to invade arrives, Bush continues to badger Cheney.

      "He knows I don't want to talk about it, but he still somehow manages to find a way to sneak it into conversations," Cheney said. "He'll drop by my office on some pretense--the Kyoto treaty or whatever--and then right before he's about to leave, he'll say, 'Oh, by the way, do you think it's time to get those troops into the Middle East yet?' As if that wasn't his whole reason for the visit."

      Bush has also taken to hanging around certain West Wing hallways, hoping to "accidentally" bump into Cheney as he exits meetings.

      Enlarge ImageBush won't stop

      Messages from Bush pile up on Cheney's desk.

      "Last Thursday, I nearly ran him over as I was coming out of a debriefing with the Joint Chiefs of Staff," Cheney said. "So he says, 'I was thinking of maybe talking to [CIA director] George Tenet, because the CIA helped spark that Kurdish uprising in '96, so maybe we could do something like that again with Iraq.' I said, 'George, I'm doing everything I possibly can to set things up for an Iraq invasion. Try to think about something else--health-care reform, the economy, anything--before I strangle you.'"

      Though he understands and appreciates the president's eagerness, Cheney said his patience finally wore out when Bush called him at home over the weekend.

      "I'm sitting down to dinner, and I get a phone call asking if 'Congress knows they've got weapons of mass destruction,'" Cheney said. "I told him yes, and to settle down. Later that night--it must have been midnight--the secured line rings. I leap out of bed, thinking something awful has happened. It's George, saying that he can't sleep thinking about how right at this very minute, Saddam is manufacturing more weapons of mass destruction, and we're sitting here doing nothing."

      On Monday, Cheney sat Bush down and explained at length the political ramifications of proceeding with a first strike without creating the appearance of approval from Congress and the American people.

      "I said we can do it, but we don't want to at this moment," Cheney said. "'If we just wait a little longer, Saddam is bound to commit some act of aggression or we'll find some juicy al Qaeda ties or something, and then we can make it look like the whole country's behind it. George has got to learn to hold his horses."

      Cheney also explained to Bush that his constant pestering is keeping him from attending to the very work that will make the invasion a reality.

      "Donald [Rumsfeld] and I are working on the U.N. weapons-inspections thing, and we're this close to finding a way to make that a compelling reason, but we just need a little more time," Cheney said. "I told George to go back to the Oval Office and stay there. I also made him put his hand on his heart and promise me he wouldn't talk to me about it anymore."

      Within an hour of sending Bush to his office, Cheney received six e-mails from Bush, all of them forwarded news articles that the president had found online. Among them was an Associated Press story titled, "Lawyers Say Bush Does Not Need Congress To Attack Iraq," accompanied by a message from Bush reading, "dick, have you seen this?!?!?!?!?! [sic]"

      "Of course I've seen it," Cheney said. "Who does he think planted the story?"

      Triangulation is not a guiding principle. It's a tactic.

      by Bob Johnson on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:28:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  are you kidding.....Karen & Karl & Kondi (4.00)
      have their heads so far up Bush's ass that they can massage his prostate with their Chins.

      *This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

      by Chamonix on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:28:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  NYT treatment of Miller news today (none)
    As usual, too little too late

    Article here.

    Oh when the frogs. . Come marching in. . Oh when the FROGS COME MARCH-ING IN!

    by pontificator on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:20:46 PM PDT

  •  Some stories just make good bedtime (4.00)
    tales unlike others.  Stories like this one - however tentative and hopeful they may be - make going to sleep a little easier because it seems possible that the world could return to normal.
  •  We need flippers (none)
    The great thing about a conspiracy is that it's awfully goddman hard to hold it together.  Someone either flips or tells someone outside the circle about the plan or it breaks down in some other fashion.  Particularly a conspiracy with this many people involved, if this report is true.

    Someone either has flipped or will flip.  We already know Colin Powell talked about the memo on Plame that was circulated on Air Force One.

    Who wants to save their own hide and get a tremendous book/movie deal out of this story?

    Come on, folks!  It's all there for the taking!

    Triangulation is not a guiding principle. It's a tactic.

    by Bob Johnson on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:22:22 PM PDT

    •  Possible Roll-eese? (none)
      Mary Matlin




      any of them.

      Rove possibly rying to implicate Libby and Cheney to take all the heat off the rest of them and Chimp?

      •  Definitely Matalin, Powell and Novak (none)
        Fleischer has probably turned, too.

        Miller will "turn" for her paramour Scooter and try to help him throw KKKarl under the bus.  Scooter and KKKarl are in "steel cage match" mode, each trying to destroy the other -- not exactly turning but trying to outplay the other at "The Prisoner's Dilemma".

        C'mon Fitz, my birthday is in a couple of weeks and all I want is a few indictments, with maybe a couple of unindicted co-conspirators thrown in... :-)

        "Repent, Harlequin!" said the Ticktockman. "Get stuffed!" said the Harlequin.

        by Theodoric of York Medieval Liberal on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:27:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  John Hannah already flipped (4.00)
      according to Moonie's paper.  
  •  The Niger document forgeries? (4.00)
    Is there any evidence Fitz could be tying those in as well?

    nil admirari (Don't be surprised at anything)

    by lampwicke on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:23:11 PM PDT

    •  that's a big question (none)
      in my mind. Please place tin foil hat on head and read my post further down title "it's so big". I've yet to hear any reports that this investigation extends beyond the outing. But someone forged that document. I don't think a "broader conspiracy" would include this event, the 16 words controversy. I think that term is legalese for more people over a longer time frame.
    •  One way to look at the investigation (none)
      I've heard this proferred a few times:

      Most of us have been of the belief that Fitzgerald is investigating the outing of a CIA agent. That's what got the investigation rolling, yes; but, that might not be what the true focus has been all along. I've heard some say that the investigation is actually more akin to a whistleblower retalition investigation -- the whistleblower being Joe Wilson.

      Wilson had been sent to Niger on official government business; after he returned, his wife was outed due to what he had to report following his work for the government. When he saw that the administration was clearly lying about what he had found, he blew the whistle on them. And they retaliated. Looking at it this way seems to make more sense to me. They didn't out Plame to get even with her -- they outed her to get even with him. What they did to him is the focus of the investigation -- not what they did to her.

      If this is truly the case, then Fitzgerald's focus has been on what led to the retaliation to begin with: Niger. Everything flows from that.

      Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead

      by ilona on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 02:43:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  4 more U.S. Soldiers killed... (4.00)
    Lest we forget the real damage from WHIG:

    4 more U.S. Soldiers killed...

    Make that 1960:


    I did not receive $ from Ketchum, U.S. Department of Ed or HHS to write this---though I wish I had.

    by Volvo Liberal on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:24:34 PM PDT

  •  Fitzgerald needs evidence (none)
    Of course neither Rove nor Libby would have ever dared to out a CIA agent and blow critical resources for antiproliferation, terrorisms surveillance, and oil production monitoring without approval from higher up.  Any half-honest administration would have crucified them.  Fitzgerald knows that, but he needs evidence to indict.  I assume the WHIG wasn't stupid enough to commit outing plans to paper.  Hence he needs flippers, probably two.  If Matalin flipped, he needs one more.  If he doesn't get it he'll have a very hard time pushing any indictments past the first level of Rove and Libby.  
    •  But I'm assuming that's where Judith Miller's (none)
      newly discovered notes could come into play. Would Libby, in these June conversations with her, have spilled the beans on the whole WHIG-engineered Plame smear? So we'd potentially have someone like Matalin, and now Miller's corroborating evidence.
    •  Has WHIG been Fitzgerald's target for 2 years? (4.00)

      "On Jan. 22, 2004, just three weeks after his appointment, independent counsel Patrick Fitzgerald issued a wide-ranging subpoena to the Bush White House, demanding telephone records from Air Force One, and all documents pertaining to the July 2003 activities of a little-known but high-powered Administration unit called the White House Iraq Group (WHIG)."

    •  You know, they might have (none)
      committed things to paper. For history, of course.

      That's exactly the type of thing that got Nixon.

      And these guys are even worse than the Nixon gang. Enough hubris to sink a battleship.

  •  This would explain (4.00)
    why the DC neo-con clique is distancing themselves from the Bush administration....Kristol, Krauthammer, Frum....
  •  One Point of Note Re. the Above Raw Story Post (4.00)
    The last line of the block quote post reads:

    The group (The White House Iraq Group) likely would have played a significant role in responding to Mr. Wilson's claims.

    And that point is:  WHIG NEVER responded to Mr. Wilson's claims.  Their immediate reaction was NOT to try and dispute his findings (which had already been corroborated by earlier investigations in Niger -- mainly that it was highly unlikely Saddam could have gotten uranium from there even if he wanted it because of the controls in place by the French).  Instead, they immediately went after Wilson and his wife Plame with efforts to discredit them by questioning their politics, their motivations, their experience and their associations with others.

    and what is equally troubling is that NONE of the reporters who were pitched the White House spin ("Don't get too far out in front on this.....Wilson's wife arranged to send him" -- itself a lie).....NONE of those reporters ever took a step back from the spin and said, "Regardless of all that, what is wrong with the claims Wilson made in his report and his op-ed piece in the NYT?  What have you got that can discredit his FINDINGS?"  

    They never asked that simple question and nobody to date in the White House spin group has ever done anything to discredit the report as opposed to the reporter....and his wife.  And the obvious reason that what Wilson reported....was the truth.

    Free markets would be a great idea, if markets were actually free.

    by dweb8231 on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:28:14 PM PDT

    •  I know media is... (none)
      ...there to make money.  But that does not -or should not- free them from all ethical concerns.  How do reporters look themselves in the mirror?  

      Maybe I just have an old-fashioned belief in integrity or something.

    •  The fact... (none)
      that this is overlooked by so many of us so much of the time is one of the most troubling aspects of this whole matter.
      •  But this is nothing new... (4.00)
        the media has ignored the lies from the beginning while everyone here has been screaming about it as loudly as they possibly could.  

        And then the Downing Street Memo surfaces, which clearly states that "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy".  So what does the media do?  They dismiss it claiming that it's "old news".  WTF?

        It may take several years, but one day, when this is all over and the dust has settled, people will realize that the media's compliance with this war was one of the great failures of American Democracy.   Thank God for Fitzgerald!

        And Thank God for the blogosphere because without it, very few of here would have ever even heard of The Downing Street Memo.

    •  SOP Starting With Reagan (none)
      what kind of geeks would inquire about the issue?

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:27:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  From Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood: (4.00)
    Good morning boys and girls.  Did you here all the bad things the White House people have said about poor old Mr. Wilson and his wife Valerie.  They told everyone she was a spy which is against the law boys and girls.  Can you say "Un-Indicted Co-Conspirators" boys and girls?  I knew you could!
  •  Conspiracy. Repeat. Conspiracy. (4.00)
    Bushco is just that:  one big criminal conspiracy, an abomination of executive power in modern America, an abomination of democracy, of the Constitution.

    And they are fucking traitors.  

    It's no wonder they sent out that chain-smoking rabid dog Coulter screaming "treason" -- they knew that they were committing treason.  

    (It's like Jesse Helms screaming about gays while maintaining a gay chief strategist... it's the dichotomy stupid (not you good diarist).

    They do it for entertainment purposes.  Believe me, I've seen it up close.

    ...but it's good to see that Mr. Fitzgerald chose to use the power of the media using "lawyers familiar with the investigation."

    Take note of that fact and expect to see it as a PR portion of the Bush defence, when the indictments (22 at last count?) come down.

    Conspiracy.  Let's all say it together, what we've been outraged at Bush for all these years.

    Conspiracy.  Go ahead and be brave.  Say this too:  traitors.

  •  this is not good news (none)
    Why? Because within the last week the gop has began to frame Fitz as an overzealous prosecutor that's bent on 'novel approaches to laws'...making it sound like he's only fishing and making shit up as he goes along.

    I think before Fitz can even think of widening his probe, he's gotta get indictments...lots and lots of them before this term is up. Because if he don't, there's no way he'll get near another GJ to expand and continue this.

    He's walking on thin ice, or the media is already working with chimpco to shut him down for good.

    •  yeah (none)
      Tweety and Andrea Mitchelle were already starting the meme tonight on Hardball

      "We must all hang together or assuredly we will all hang seperately." - Ben Franklin

      by RandyMI on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:48:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Let whoever start whatever BS line on Fitz (none)
        He has the rest of the month to broaden this thing as wide as he wants. After al this time together, he could probably let this jury out for a nice walk(alas not a runaway jury) and get charges on anyone or anything.

        I think it is uite brave of these reporters to start out already with some of this stuff especially since some of the meat of this case lies in the laps of their fellow reporters.

        •  don't fret, boys and girls (none)
          those charges won't stick.  And they are nothing compared with the shock of the coming indictments.  Do you realize how uninformed 95% of Americans are about this?

          Rove who?   Sound familiar?

          The shock of the sheer multitude of people involved in this is going to overwhelm the press, the public, and the White House.

          Rest comfortably dearies.  No worries here.

          If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up... - Hannah and Her Sisters

          by AlyoshaKaramazov on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 05:36:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I thought Tweety had revved up? (none)
        Has he already revved down?

        "Our enemy is innovative and resourceful and so are we. Our enemy never stops thinking of new ways to harm us and our country, and neither do we." G.W. Bush

        by litigatormom on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:18:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Last night (none)
          Tweety and Andrea Mitchell believe it or not brought up the case of the Islamic charities that Fitz went after, and failed to get a conviction as evidence Fitz might get excessive.  Yes, the same Islamic charities that little Judy tipped off with her NYT article.

          Even the Republican shills agreed Libby would be indicted, however.  I conclude Libby has flipped/and/or is the appointed scapegoat.

          And Tweety will churn whatever butter they give him to create something to talk about.

        •  he was on tv this morning talking about it. (none)
          and said bush might have to get a whole new administration.
          •  Yes, he predicted multiple indictments (none)
            Said the situation was very serious.  Katie Couric did not seem happy to hear this news -- when did she become a Republican?

            "Our enemy is innovative and resourceful and so are we. Our enemy never stops thinking of new ways to harm us and our country, and neither do we." G.W. Bush

            by litigatormom on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 07:34:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Katie (none)
              probably not as much of a republican as a talking meatstick with no thoughts of her own.

              My fiancee LOVES the Today Show so I get to watch her empty vacuous (redundancy intended) interviews, and general lack of a clue every morning as we get ready for work.

              This probably just blows her feeble mind as she can't comprehend something this big.

              Now, Matt Lauer got way more respect from me after yesterday's interview of Chimpy McVodkabottle.

    •  Bush himself said Fitz is conducting (none)
      the investigation in a dignified manner.  Are they going to dispute Bush?
    •  i don't know... (4.00)
      ...he has judges giving him BROAD discretion:  just look to the unprecedented Miller jailing they gave him.

      if he asks for another GJ, he will get it.  the evidence in the public domain is downright damning and prosecutors would have to hide in caves with Osama if they tried to shoo this conspiracy under the rug.

      the MSM is just getting restless and impatient.

      we have all waited this long:  "get it right Fitz" is what I say.

      •  i disagree (none)
        "if he asks for another GJ, he will get it. "

        Not unless he closes this session with indictments. That gives him results he can show, that he can use (in a political sense) there's a 'there' there and can widen the probe.

        Without finsihing the biz at hand before this session is out, he looks like fucking ken starr trying desperately to find anything. The press will pile on because he hasn't been 'friendly' leaked, and the justice dept will shut him down.

    •  I agree, he has to make a big move, (none)
      and needs to do it SOON. Like tomorrow.
    •  That's what they do. To be expected. (none)
      The difference now is a much less receptive audience for spin.  

      People are unhappy with the war, and now question why we got into it and how we're going to get out.  They're not happy with the economy, high gas prices.  Less than half think W is trustworthy.  

      The same old bullshit spin will, I think, be met with a lot more skepticism.

    •  Easily Shot Down (none)
      Don't worry, jdw, all of those claims can be easily put down down by reason and precedent. Fitzgerald is merely applying the controlling law in this case. Having no winning ammo against the prosecution, his many detractors are now grasping at the proverbial straw.

      Jackals, weasels, polecats, and donkeys. Boobus Americanus.

      by Thaxter on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:24:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We are forgetting something (4.00)
    These Mother F*ckers have now killed thousands of people with their lies.  I am anti-death penalty but  if Fitz comes out and proves we went to war on a bunch of lies, all of these people deserve to go to jail for life without parole.  The American and Iraqi people should DEMAND no less than that.  
  •  Legal implications? (none)
    Just asking - what would actually HAPPEN if the WHIG were all indicted?  I mean, who would have to step down, etc.?  And then how would that change with convictions?  Who is the first immune person on the succession list?  Dennis Hastert?
  •  Sorry Folks if this is true, Thank God (4.00)
    Kerry Lost and Bush got re-elected and brought his War team back with him. If true, this will change everything that the United States has ever stood for and how the entire world will look at us for generations to come. Can you imagine A government this corrupt? And we are trying to call Osama and Sadam bad guys? How much American and Iraqi blood are on these peoples hands? This is much bigger than Plame. This is about the Worst President in the History of the United States and the most Corrupt Administration that ever walked the Whitehouse grounds. This will also taint the Bush family forever. Let's not forget that Bush won in 2000 and it came down to Florida which his brother was governor and the corrupt majority of  Supreme Court justices that issued a ruling to stop counting the votes. I wouldn't believe this plot if it was in a summer Blockbuster. No one would.

    *This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

    by Chamonix on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:53:38 PM PDT

  •  All I can say is (4.00)

    My heart is racing. And it is past my bedtime.
    How I won't be able to sleep.

    inspire change...don't back down

    by missliberties on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:56:14 PM PDT

  •  This is reminding me of Illinois (none)
    When one Republican after another started facing charges.

    "We must all hang together or assuredly we will all hang seperately." - Ben Franklin

    by RandyMI on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 08:56:21 PM PDT

  •  It's so big (4.00)
    WHIG started up to figure out how to sell the war. What if they gilded the lily and faked the document from Niger, routed through Italy and Britain, just in time for Bush's January 2003 State of the Union speech? It always struck me when Bush spoke, he said "British intelligence has learned..." I couldn't understand why he chose to distance himself from one of his central arguments for the war, the nuclear threat from Saddam. Why did he do that, why were those particular words chosen. That speech is poured over, again and again, by warriors who fight with words. Plus it doesn't ring true, if it's in his speech didn't our intelligence agency learn it from their intelligence agency simply because it's in the speech?

    I agree that these people committed a serious crime in attacking Ms. Wilson in a political battle, but DON'T forget - someone forged the original Niger document, right? It didn't just drop out of nowhere. Could it have all been cooked up in the situation room, by WHIG? I conceed that it's entirely possible that some third party with a separate agenda, read Ahmed Chalabi, forged the memo to prop-up the administration claims of WMD, newcular WMD. How likely is that? Chalabi was already in with Rummy over at the special intelligence operation at the Pentagon.

    My dearest wish is that Fitzgerald indicts for crimes concerning the outing but he has enough to convince a judge or 5 that more crimes were committed in the "16 words" controversy. Serious crimes - not chicken shit conspiracy stuff, Bush "lied us into war" kind of crimes.

    •  You know, you have finally put into words (none)
      something that was bugging me, and I wasn't even aware that it was--the bit about knowing about the Niger yellowcake "from British intelligence."  You're absolutely right--this statement is fishy just from his having made it.  The US gets info from around the world all the time, US govt folks vet it, and if it's important enough, a president talking about it in a speech to the nation would just talk about it as "our intelligence officials have learned...".  Later on, if someone wants clarification, details as to where specific info originated sometimes gets publicly released--but this was a distancing manouevre, I just hadn't seen it in the speech before.  Thanks!

      ...the White House will be adorned by a downright moron...H.L. Mencken

      by bibble on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:34:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That forgery (none)
      is one childishly pathetic job to be done by people with the arrayed forces of the free world's graphics professionals and equipment at their disposal. Just saying. Third party if anything, but for that thing even to be approved by people in the WH is kind of hard to believe.

      Remember that the only person you can count on is
      yourself, and even that only sometimes. -Tristan Bernard

      by timelad on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 02:37:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Clearly, (none)
      creating propaganda to justify an unjustifiable war is an impeachable offense.

      What is essential is invisible.

      by bebimbob on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 08:02:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Holy Shit!! (none)
    No Seriously, holy shit.  This is big.  Not big, but BIG.  Like throw our country into chaos big.  Like end of the Republican party for a decade big.  Like, would change the complexion of the political debate big.  Like treasonous big.

    This Fitzgerald fellow is relentless, and I have been waiting for somebody to be relentless back at the Republicans since the Clinton witch hunts.  

    Pinch me...

  •  It hurts me to say this.. (none)
    because I am not a spiteful person...

    I think I know how the Conservative movement felt on spring when there was a tiny little itsy bitsy leak about a blue dress...

    I am not making a statement about either case, but there seems like a point where the dam breaks and you have an "I knew it in my gut moment".  If this leak has an iota of truth...THIS IS IT.

    Pass the Jiffy Pop....

    •  blood on their hands (none)
      I follow you to an extent... the sense of a "pop!" moment...

      ... but this is so much worse than Clinton's fellatio-related perjury.

      My young coworker's husband was just called up to Iraq for a year of duty.  They have a 2.5 year old son.  Very sad time in our office.

      War is hell even when the mission is worthy and the cause is noble.  This war is layer upon layer of hell because it lacks even that.  It's like a fusion of the White House deceit of the Spanish-American War, and the futility of the USSR's war on Afghanistan.

  •  Suppose that they all do get indicted. (none)
    Wishful thinking, but hey, we can dream right?

    What happens?

    We've got a sitting cabinet secretary and more senior White House officials than you can shake a stick at facing indictments.  Maybe the Vice President is even facing charges.

    Suppose you are in George W. Bush's shoes.  What do you do?  You promised the press that you'd fire people involved.  Now, your entire brain trust is implicated and the public isn't going to take innocent until proven guilty for an answer.

    You've personally assured the press that many of these people were clean, and have promoted many of them since the acts that were involved here.

    No one likes a loser.  Bush's popularity ratings go way sub-Nixon.

    A Presidential pardon would end it all very soon, but would threaten to destroy the Republican party for near future.  This is what happened after Nixon.  This is what happened after Iran-Contra.  But, would months of trials of his close friends and dozens of convictions of senior White House officials leave the Republican party any better off?

    He can't admit that he was in the loop (and honestly, I rather doubt that he was).  But, if he admits that he was out of the loop, his stature on national defense is shredded.

    If Cheney is implicated, resigning in favor of him isn't even really an option.

    What does Congress do?  Do the Republicans break ranks or do they circle the wagons?  I've got to think that the latter is more likely, but how do they pull it off and not get slaughtered in 2006?

    Truly mind boggling.

    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

    by ohwilleke on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:13:40 PM PDT

  •  Well crapola! (4.00)
    I was so busy in the other diary refreshing and commenting that I didn't see that the party moved over here!

    Got some ketchin' up to do I see.  :o)

    Markos - PLEASE, PLEASE make sure your Servers are READY 4 ACTION!

  •  "Selling the war" (none)
    That's what leaps out at me.  The MSM finally saying out loud--and as if it was conventional wisdom--that the WH cynically snookered the country into war, like the fast-talking used car salesmen they are
  •  Mary Matalin (none)
    I understand she's been cooperating. She may be the one who is connecting all the dots for Fitz.

    "We must all hang together or assuredly we will all hang seperately." - Ben Franklin

    by RandyMI on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 09:21:06 PM PDT

  •  Don't forget about OSP (4.00)
    In the Pentagon, right under Rummy's and Wolfowitz's noses was the Office of Special Plans.  see

    According to the Pentagon adviser, Special Plans was created in order to find evidence of what Wolfowitz and his boss, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, believed to be true--that Saddam Hussein had close ties to Al Qaeda, and that Iraq had an enormous arsenal of chemical, biological, and possibly even nuclear weapons that threatened the region and, potentially, the United States.

    Hmmmm ... nuclear weapons which need yellow-cake uranium which Iraq sought to buy from Niger??  Those nukes?

    When Rumsfeld was asked about the story at a Pentagon briefing, he was initially vague. "I'm told that after September 11th a small group, I think two to start with, and maybe four now . . . were asked to begin poring over this mountain of information that we were receiving on intelligence-type things." He went on to say, "You don't know what you don't know. So in comes the daily briefer"--from the C.I.A.--"and she walks through the daily brief. And I ask questions. `Gee, what about this?' or `What about that? Has somebody thought of this?'"

    From the wikipedia:  
    "The Office of Special Plans, which existed from September, 2002, to June, 2003...."   June 2003  ..... and "The goal of Special Plans, he said, was 'to put the data under the microscope to reveal what the intelligence community can't see.'" (Hersh, 2003)

    ....  In September 2002, two days before the CIA's final assessment of the Iraq-al Qaeda relationship, Feith briefed senior advisers to Dick Cheney and Condoleezza Rice, undercutting the CIA's credibility and alleging "fundamental problems" with CIA intelligence-gathering.  As reported in the conservative British newspaper The Daily Telegraph, "Senator Jay Rockefeller,...senior Democrat on the [Senate] committee, said that Mr Feith's cell may even have undertaken 'unlawful' intelligence-gathering initiatives." (Coman, 2004)

    Wonder if OSP had any problem with Wilson's trip and his assessment about the yellow cake?  According to other articles on OSP, its members (which included NewtG) were in and out of CIA on a regular basis.  Reckon they knew Plame?  Reckon they were briefed on the Niger trip?

  •  For the other half of the ribbon (none)
    tying this package with a neat bow, please read The Lie Factory from Mother Jones magazine, January/February 2004. Be sure and look at the chart, too, please.
    •  I remember that chart! (none)
      I used it in my diary for Niger Yellowcake and the Man Who Forged Too Much
      Larry Franklin, a Col. in the US Air Force, is considered the Pentagons top Iran analyst.  He attended the meeting in Rome with Ghorbanifar. He works for the Office of Special Plans and is a fervent believer in the need to invade Iran.  He is now under arrest for allegedly giving state secrets to Isreal through AIPAC.

      FBI investigators indicate that they are looking for more than one person. Michael Ledeen and Harold Rhode have to be considered primary suspects.

      This flowchart shows how the Office of Special Plans was organized.

      Note that many members are also affiliated with AEI and therefore, by extension, with AIPAC.  Their names are Wurmser, Rubin, Cheney, Perle and Gingrich.  That's in addition, of course, to Keyser Soze, er Michael Ledeen.

      One need only look at what espionage operation risked being exposed by Wilson revealing the Niger Yellowcake forgeries to realize why Rove would go so far as to 'out' Valerie Plame to discredit Joe Wilson.

      It's all starting to come together nicely now.

      •  I'm wondering if you are the one (none)
        that broke the margins with your link or box. Big Drag me me here. If it is you try preview next time or tinylink.

        *This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

        by Chamonix on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 10:36:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  oh oh! (none)
          I'm not too savvy on this stuff.  Sorry if I screwed something up.  What is tiny link?
          •  Don't get me wrong (none)
            I love what you's just I have been with this diary since it started and when i just refreshed the margins were a mess and it made it harder to read..that's all. I suck at links and boxes and pictures also..i just know there is a thing called I believe tinylink that makes the link name/letter/numbers really short as to not break the margins..i just went looking for it and couldn't find it. Hopefully someon will come along and let you know. Don't sweat it...I am just a bit tired now and cranky. I want Fitzie to wrap it up and get America back from the Hostage takers that have been fucking us for 5 years.

            *This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

            by Chamonix on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 11:40:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          • might be called (none)

            *This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

            by Chamonix on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 11:41:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Okay I feel really stupid (none)
              but how do I DO that?  Can you show me an example?  I now know what NOT to do lol.

              Appreciate any advice, thanks.

              •  TinyURL (none)
                Pen - I've been on this diary since the beginning as well, and I don't think it's your post that has screwed up the margins.  I just viewed the HTML source for this page and didn't see anything you did out of the ordinary.  It must be someone else, but I'm not sure who.

                Anyway, if you ever want to make a tremendously long URL into one that is manageable (especially useful in emails) go to TinyURL and they'll convert it to something that looks like this example:

                TinyURL also has a little tool that you can add to your browser links list allowing you to create a TinyURL without having to do a copy/paste.  I've never used it (new to me) but it looks like a nifty tool to have.

              •  I always have to look it up (none)
                Go to the dKos FAQ section:


                Go to embedding a link:

                Embedding a link

                You will find the directions there.

  •  DRUDGE SCOOP!!!!! (none)
    All of this is going on, the wsj story, murray waas, huffington post, and Drudge's headline?

    "China opens new chapter in space history with most ambitious mission yet...

    No siren yet.....

    •  saw that too (none)
      what a joke. He was never anything more than a conduit for political hackery, when a story requires reporting to be done he's not so interested. His original news pieces look like a 10 year old submitted them.
  •  The more people Fitzgerald can indict (none)
    The more people Bush can render safe from a future Democratic President with one easy Pardon.

    The best thing that could happen to this presidency is to have Fitzgerald extend the investigation until Bush is out of office and a Presidential Pardon is no longer a surety.

  •  Another possible ASPEN... (4.00)
    was watching a West Wing repeat tonight. It was the one where they were at Camp David, negotiating the Arab/Israeli peace treaty.
    One of the places at Camp David where people meet is called Aspen, a cottage I guess.
    Josh & Toby kept telling people, "I'll meet you at Aspen."

    So maybe this group met at Aspen at Camp David to plot strategy. Maybe telling Judy the Aspens are turning was a way of saying that the entire group was out to save itself any way it could or that what she might say could endanger the whole group.

  •  Plame=NeoCons=Iran-lust=AIPAC? (none)
    Any indication from the WSJ if this will hook up with the Larry Franklin/AIPAC investigations?  Justin Raimondo at thinks so:

    Both Fitzgerald and Paul McNulty, the prosecutor in the AIPAC spy case, are targeting the same group of committed neoconservative ideologues. The neocons tried to discredit Ambassador Joe Wilson and "outed" CIA agent Valerie Plame because Wilson was an obstacle on the road to war with Iraq. And now they are trying replicate the same scenario in support a military strike at Iran -- the issue at the root of the AIPAC spy scandal. In both instances, their ruthlessness and lawlessness was their ultimate undoing.

    More Raimondo here.

    If Fitzgerald extends to the WHIG, I hope all roads lead up Libby and Michael Ledeen's yellow-caked ass, and maybe we can even get some closure on Iran-Contra too.

    •  That DVD ad is awful and annoying (none)
      please consider getting rid of it or something. It is really terrible.

      *This site is slower than Bush's reaction on 9/11.*

      by Chamonix on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 11:21:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i'm happy to, but (none)
        Hey, I'm happy to take down my plug for 'The Power of Nightmares' on DVD, but I'm curious about your objection to it.  You said it's terrible and awful, but I don't really understand how or why. Is it an aesthetic issue with seeing a dark bar on your page? do you not like the documentary?  Please elaborate because I'm not averse to your suggestion.

        Earlier in the year, many people saw this in my signature and emailed me asking for a copy - it was a BBC documentary that hadn't made its way to the States but had a large buzz, so it did have some use and I think was valuable in terms of the number of people who contacted me for a free copy.

        Again, I am very interested in your objection when you have a chance.


        •  It's the long dark bar (none)
          that bothers me. Out of place/inappropriate and immediate impression is that of some sort of glitch.

          My suggestion would be to make it strictly text. I'm reading here and don't want crap "catching my eye."

          No hostility intended or here, but I saw you'd asked with no reply yet. :-)

          PoN is good stuff, and good of you to help people get a copy.

  •  If Fitz really had the guts to find out who forged (none)
    the Niger documents, he would get my vote for anything, even if he is (gulp!) a Republican.  To me, it is astonishing that the Media would not find the story at all newsworthy.  Everyone admits the docs were forged.  It does beg the question as to who in fact forged them.  If he can open that door, then I think the Administration would be in severe crisis and the Democrats would likely take back Congress in 2006.
  •  this is it (none)
    This has to be it. It neatly ties together all the things we currently know about the direction of the investigation. It has always pointed toward a more broad investigation, but to what end wasn't very clear to me until now. Andrew Card set up WHIG which explains his name popping into the picture. According to Wikipedia, "Soon after WHIG was formed, the Bush Administration's claims about the danger Iraq posed escalated significantly".


    "In an interview with the New York Times, Andrew Card did not mention the WHIG specifically but hinted at its mission. Card said "From a marketing point of view, you don't introduce new products in August." On September 17, 2002, Matt Miller stated on NPR that the above quote from Andrew Card was in response to the question: "... why the administration waited until after Labor Day to try to sell the American people on military action against Iraq"

    Their "cocky, agressive push to sell the war at any cost" would explain the willingness to compromise national security. And why not? The admin was still riding high around 75% approval and, perhaps more telling, this whole chain of events is right around the time of the Max Cleland/Osama Bin Laden smear job. It isn't a stretch at all to think these guys would gladly tar Joseph Wilson, the guy just outed them and, perhaps more personally offensive to Rove et al, donated over $8,000 to democractic campaigns and was an unabashed Democrat. A far worse offense than that which caused Paul O'Neill to lose his job right around this same period. They were sacking and smearing left and right, and winning all the way. Sure they were mildly slipping in the polls, but they all knew the Iraq war, which was already a year in planning and all but a done deal (provided there were no Joseph Wilsons in the way), would be coming soon to give Bush a bump and shift all eyeballs toward the Middle East. A few ethical/moral/legal departures would be all but forgotten once we were distracted with "shock and awe."

    WHIG's agressive push could and likely would include corruptable journalists to lend credibility to their highly disprovable arguments. Enter Judith Miller.

    The million dollar question here is, does Andrew Card have the autonomy to set up a group like WHIG without Presidential/Vice Presidential approval or direction? And further, would the President/Vice President have been briefed on the group's activities? Seems to me that a broad disinformation campaign would require tight integration with senior officials, if nothing else just to keep the story straight and consistent.

  •  aaaaaaaggggghhhhh!!!!! (4.00)
    man... this suspense is really just too much. i'm going to explode. can we really just end this mess all at once? good lorda mighty...

    -9.38:-7.59 U.S. blue collar worker vs. CEO income in 1992 was 1:80; in 1998 it was 1:418.

    by Lode Runner on Tue Oct 11, 2005 at 11:32:42 PM PDT

  •  As predicted by Talk Left... (none)
    He predicted that 2 months ago: WHIG is the culprit!
    •  I predicted it back in February, 2005 (4.00)
      Here's my comment:

      White House Iraq Group (none / 1)

      Better known as WHIG.  It's psyops to sell war to us.  Here's an excerpt from an 08/10/03 Washington Post article.  I'm sorry for the long cut-n-paste, but I feel this is being overlooked.  The players are even named.  

      Systematic coordination began in August, when Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr. formed the White House Iraq Group, or WHIG, to set strategy for each stage of the confrontation with Baghdad. A senior official who participated in its work called it "an internal working group, like many formed for priority issues, to make sure each part of the White House was fulfilling its responsibilities."

      In an interview with the New York Times published Sept. 6, Card did not mention the WHIG but hinted at its mission. "From a marketing point of view, you don't introduce new products in August," he said.

      The group met weekly in the Situation Room. Among the regular participants were Karl Rove, the president's senior political adviser; communications strategists Karen Hughes, Mary Matalin and James R. Wilkinson; legislative liaison Nicholas E. Calio; and policy advisers led by Rice and her deputy, Stephen J. Hadley, along with I. Lewis Libby, Cheney's chief of staff.

      The first days of September would bring some of the most important decisions of the prewar period: what to demand of the United Nations in the president's Sept. 12 address to the General Assembly, when to take the issue to Congress, and how to frame the conflict with Iraq in the midterm election campaign that began in earnest after Labor Day.

      A "strategic communications" task force under the WHIG began to plan speeches and white papers. There were many themes in the coming weeks, but Iraq's nuclear menace was among the most prominent.


      And here's even MORE!
      Karen Hughes and her actions have fallen under the scrutiny of the prosecutor. The Plame grand jury has subpoenaed records created by the White House Iraq Group in July 2003, the same month Plame was outed in the Novak column. Hughes was a member of the White House Iraq Group, an internal body that coordinated strategy for, among other things, selling the war here at home. Other members of the group were Karl Rove, Mary Matalin, James Wilkinson, legislative liaison Nicholas E. Calio and policy advisers including Condoleezza Rice, her deputy, Stephen J. Hadley, and I. Lewis Libby, Dick Cheney's chief of staff.

      A USA Today story from July 2003 also describes how Hughes was among a small group of strategists who devised the strategy to counter Wilson's Niger story. The article says, "The plan: Release all relevant information. Try to shift attention back to Bush's leadership in the war on terrorism. Diminish the significance of that single piece of iffy intelligence by making the case that Saddam was a threat for many other reasons. Put Republican lawmakers and other Bush allies on TV to defend him. Most important: Question the motives of Democrats who supported the war but now are criticizing the president."

      On her media tour, there are many relevant questions Hughes might be asked: Were Plame or Wilson's names ever mentioned at the meetings of the White House Iraq Group? By whom? What is the relation of that group to any damage control group involving Plame and Wilson? Since Hughes wasn't officially on the White House payroll, did the order by the White House counsel not to destroy records in the Plame case apply to her? Has Hughes retained counsel in this matter? Has she testified before the grand jury or been interviewed by the FBI? Has she discussed Valerie Plame or Joe Wilson with anyone in the White House Iraq Group -- or any other White House officials -- at any time, before or after the publication of the Novak column? With whom has she ever discussed Plame or Wilson? Rove? "Scooter" Libby? Cheney? The President?

  •  frog (none)
    hahaha!  Frog March is a tag! I love it, and love the giggles it gave me.

    "Is the President concerned that there's a stench of corruption around the Republican establishment in Washington?" -- Terry Moran to Scotty, 9/28/05

    by OLinda on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 01:12:52 AM PDT

    •  well, it was funny though (none)
      Kos just posted that cutesy tags like Frog March are not such a good idea.

      "Is the President concerned that there's a stench of corruption around the Republican establishment in Washington?" -- Terry Moran to Scotty, 9/28/05

      by OLinda on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 01:39:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  but if "Frog March" becomes (none)
        part of our vernacular -- and it might -- then the tagging will come to appear prescient.

        We'll be talking about these indictments and convictions for year(s) to come -- might as well let Joe Wilson himself bestow the name.  Frog March.

  •  This would bring the whole Iraq shebang upfront (none)
    in a complete different light, Downing Street memos and all... conjectures arise.
    What would the Democrats leadership do with it:

    Look for a winter quilt to hide under?

    Or, have Hillary, Liebermann and the rest of the appeasers hide under it and finally ask for a policy of disengagement?

    Or, behave like a real opposition, select point-men like Feingold and Conyers, and go to battle royal? (yeah, that'll be the day...)

    politics ain't cricket

    by TOTO rules on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 03:43:31 AM PDT

  •  Fits . . . (4.00)
    "According to one Capitol Hill source, WHIG was launched at a moment when the Bush Administration was hit with a series of staggering blows to its Iraq War designs. In early August 2002, Gen. Brent Scowcroft (ret.), former National Security Advisor to President George H.W. Bush, and the head of G.W.'s President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, penned an op-ed, opposing any Iraq invasion, on the grounds that it would detract from the Administration's post-9/11 priority, the Global War on Terrorism. Scowcroft's devastating article was followed, in rapid succession, by a similar published warning from former Bush Sr. Secretary of State James Baker III, and statements by Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.) and former House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-Tex.) opposing an Iraq war.

    "At that point, according to a number of Washington sources familiar with the internal White House deliberations, the decision was made that the focus of attention had to be on making the case that Saddam Hussein was on the verge of obtaining nuclear weapons.

    "Right on cue, on Sept. 8, 2002, New York Times journalists Judith Miller and Michael Gordon published an expose' of Saddam Hussein's purported quest to obtain aluminum tubes,[...]"

    Article in July 22, 2005 issue of Executive Intelligence Review.
    White House Iraq 'Plumbers Unit' Behind Plame Leak [e.g. WHIG]

  •  Tell your Rethug friends (none)
    (if you have any)

    Remember Bill and Monica, and the Rethug refrain"It's not the sex, it's the lying?"

    It's the lying now.

    Lying to get us into a WAR.

    Committing TREASON to cover the lies that led to WAR.

    Lying to cover the TREASON to cover the lies that led to WAR.

    I could go on all day--2k servicemen and women dead. and no end in sight. Tens of thousands maimed, and no end in sight. Hundreds of billions of dollars wasted, and no end in sight. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians dead and maimed, and no end in sight.Hundreds of millions of dollars for the oilmen and the war profiteers, and no end in sight.

    Compare that to a blow job.

    I point my finger straight in the faces of those sorry dupes who voted for Bush and I say,"You. You helped bring this on us. The blood is on your hands."

    Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

    by drewfromct on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 05:55:47 AM PDT

    •  Link Plame to high gas prices (none)
      It's unclear to me whether Plame was really involved with running rings of covert cooperatives in the Middle East or not.

      But, if she was, could the fact that she was outed and her operatives outed have anything to do with the soaring price of oil?

      Maybe Plame was "Jamesette Bond in charge of keeping gas prices down" and now she no longer can do that.

      •  I think it's enough (none)
        to point out that the current cabal is made up almost entirely of oilmen and ex(?)oilmen and women.

        The Rethugs and their msm press puppies gave us a gov't. of, by, and for the oilmen, and--lo and behold! the price of gas has more than doubled under their reign of error.

        Linking it to Plamegate is a bit of a reach, IMO, misses the point, and stretches credulity. When the truth is so overwhelmingly on our side, why stretch it?

        Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

        by drewfromct on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 07:05:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •   Words of Caution (4.00)
    before the thread disappears into the archives.  I, like everyone else, wants to see this administration incarcerated, humiliated and, generally, put out of business.

    Two points I would like to make, however:

    1)  I'm a Red Sox fan and I remember 1986, where the Sox were one out (one lousy stinking out) from winning the World Series.  They were so close to winning that the champagne had been brought to the club house and uncorked.  Of course, the impossibly improbable happened and the Mets went on to win the game and then the series.  Taught me an important lesson - NEVER uncork the champagne until the victory is in hand.  

    We don't know who, if anyone, is going down.  We have some ideas, leaks, innuendos, rumors...but we don't know...At this point, we are all projecting our own private hit list on the mystery that is the Fitzgerald GJ...and while I would like them all to be wearing orange, keep in mind that we JUST DON'T KNOW much of anything at this point.

    2)  Yes, it would be a major victory for American to have the Bush Crime family excised from our lives...BUT, to some degree it's not just about them, it's about a Congress composed of wing-nuts, religious bomb-throwers, etc. and a shadowy consortium of uber-powerful corporate interests that put these guys in power.  While it would be cause for celebration, indeed, to rid ourselves of this nightmarish regime...Congress and the corporate junta are still around, burnin' down the house.

    "We're all working for the Pharoah" - Richard Thompson

    by mayan on Wed Oct 12, 2005 at 08:03:19 AM PDT

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