I don't often disagree with Kos and this is his most excellent site so I' would first like to say thanks to KOS, for creating such an open and accessible forum and congratulations for an outstanding job here. And to all of your collaborators as well.
We have all seen the many sites that purport to be real forums but which make it impossible to take views opposite of those in control. I admire the dedication and respect shown here for the power of true debate, and also the courage it takes to allow dissent on your own website.
But I couldn't disagree more with the sentiments Kos has just published in Realignment Not Impeachment. It's not my intention to duplicate that column, however, to put down a few comments from the opposite point of view.
These points of view are well represented in his diary, but are so scattered about in Kos's diary, they sort of get drowned out by the ardent support of his supporters. And sadly, some of this support is so shrill and presents honest disagreement as if it "ridiculous, delusional, etc." it may be hard for folks to recognize that it is possible for intelligent, and well informed people to disagree. Also, am surprised at the number of otherwise apparently intelligent people who state their assumptions as if they are somehow obvious universal truths, and that anyone who disagrees just doesn't' get it.
I wish that those of us interested in building a broader more cooperative democratic party could learn better how to express contrary points of view without as much of the arrogant shrillness that drives many more polite and less demonstrable or powerful folks away from engaging in the discussion.
As one of those who strongly supports Bush and Cheney's Impeachment ASAP let me say that the most distressing line in Kos's diary is when he asks "And as far as legacies go, what would be worst -- destroying his own presidency or destroying his entire party? Let's make sure it's the latter.
"What could be worse than destroying his presidency or destroying the entire party?" Counterpoint 1: Destroying the entire Country and World would be much worse!
Bush and Cheney can still cause a lot more damage to our country and the world for the next three years. Think of the opportunity cost as well as how unimaginable worse they could make it. Think of losing all moderate regimes including Israel in the middle east. Think of millions if not billions of deaths due to a mutation of the H5N1 virus with current 60% mortality rate if we do not build a more competent public health infrastructure than we saw in New Orleans with Katrina. Think of all compliant and complicit Americans co-owning and co-sharing responsibility for the Bush Administration's Travesties world wide in the International Community. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, Bush and the Republicans were responsible for this until the 2004 election. Now all Americans own our behavior in the world community. Only by a strong repudiation of it can return ourselves to responsible global citizenship. And think of the damage to the ideal of Democracy, Justice, and everything America has stood for so far that could ensue if Bush and Cheney remain in office unchallenged for three more years.
KOS begins his diary
Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 12:29:33 PM PDT
All the "impeachment" talk seems to be silly for a couple of reasons. One, do we really want Cheney as president? Two, if not Cheney because of scandal, do we really want Dennis Hastert as president?
Counterpoint 2: No we do not want Cheney as president. I believe he will and should resign or be removed by impeachment first. Dennis Hastert may not be as dangerous and damaging as Bush. Less than 20% of the respondents to the poll I did here at KOS last week expects Cheney to last to the end of Term. As soon as more of his involvement with the WHIG cabal surfaces, I predict he will resign. If not he will probably be impeached or resign before Bush. This would be so advantagious to the GOP, I believe they will do it no matter what we do. I am surprised he hasn't resigned already, given how much damage he is doing to Bush and the GOP. I believe they are smart enough to recognize this and already have a plan for his resignation. Perhaps, even before Karl Rove resigns. (See previous diaries).
Given Cheney's highly likely resignation, indictment and or impeachment Bush will have the opportunity to replace him before the end of term. I believe the Republicans have been planning this even before Cheney's current troubles. 40% of poll respondents here at KOS expect his replacement will be Condi Rice. I am skeptical of this because Condi Rice will be deeply implicated with involvement with the White House Iraq Group, WHIGS.
Any one not familiar with how extensive this conspiracy has been I highly recommend the article in todays ThinkProgress
23 Administration Officials Involved In Plame Leak
CounterPoint 3: Justice and the International Integrity of the U.S. and the office of the presidency are worthy of our support.
This was Bush's War and violation of International Law prior to the 2004 elections. The international community now can hold all American, including Democrats, responsible for this atrocity. An Impeachment Trial Is necessary to hold this administration accountable. Otherwise, all Americans, and all Democrats who supported the war and continue to support this administration against our calls for Impeachment will co-own this accountability. And probably not be electable.
Counterpoint 4: We need to really legitimize the extent of current White House corruption in the minds of the public and MSM. Yes, they believe Libby and Rove were probably involved in improprieties. But a lot of Republicans still see this as relatively minor. There is an enormous opportunity for real mindset and paradigm change here in the public and especially moderates and right wing folks that has yet to be harvested.
Counterpoint 5: Your comments are playing into Rove, Galen, Black's current announced strategy. Keep Bush out of country and off to the ranch for Thanksgiving and try to chance the subject back to Patriotism etc.
Counterpoint 6: Many administrations including Reagan's have returned from worse favorability pools. The Democrats can still blow this. I already think many are over-confident. And are also forgetting the the general public has only a slightly higher regard for those currently in congress including Democrats than they do the Bush Administration. There is still much hard work to put Democrats actually in office. It's still possible all incumbents may be thrown out in 2006 and 2008 including our own. We need to really nail down this corruption once and for all in a way that is indisputable.
Counterpoint 7: Democrats who were misled and provided false and misleading intelligence have a relatively short and rapidly closing window of opportunity to come forward and differentiate themselves from this administration and their support for it and the War. If they do not, a substantial number of democrats and independents have already announced their intention to hold them accountable in the next election. It would be a real shame if those unwilling to do this, rip this party apart by opposing such a large and charged up part of our base. Once true re-alignment gets underway, the Democratic party will be affected also. At the very least, I would ask KOS and other's who wish to focus their efforts on Realignment, to treat those of us who believe it is neccesary to pursue Impeachment with tolerance, if not, respect. Treating us with derision and ridicule is neither necesary or wise. Democrats should recognize that some independents and democrats are equally fed up with us and are talking enthusiastically about a third party. After Nadar has helped us loose two elections, I would expect more sensitivity to this early on. Let's keep these folks in our party.
Counterpoint 8: The perceived credibility and integrity of our Constitution and Government are at stake. The Bush Administration has committed offenses against our constitution, the nation, and the world. I believe as Americans we all have a major responsibility to hold Bush and Cheney to account, and show ourselves, future generations, and the world that the integrity of our constitution has been protected and restored - in a bi-partisan way. Already on today's blogs one can read speculations and calls for Republicans to join with us in these demands for at least Articles of Inquiry, so we can properly investigate the evidence for Impeachment.
Many here have thought I am making a joke when I say The Integrity of the Constitution and Country is too important to allow partisan politics to intervene. I know many here will disagree, however, please do not underestimate the number of us who truly do believe in America, the Constitution, Truth, Justice, and the American Way. We are not going to abandon that to achieve partisan political objectives.
Counterpoint 9: Current members of office have taken an oath to "uphold and defend the constitution of the United States of America" from any and all threats. Any current members of the House or Senate who shirk this responsibility and fail to stand up and do the right thing now will be held accountable at the next elections and by history. And become accessaries after the fact.
I believe if you take a look at the bigger picture and polls you will discover that no democratic leaders who do not support impeachment will be electable. The magnitude of this offense against our country and the constitution must not be apparent to you. Also, think of the risk of allowing such corrupt and incompetent people in office for three more years. They can do substantially too much harm by staying in.
Counterpoint 10: Impeachment and Realignment are not mutually exclusive. My belief though is that focusing on Realignment without Impeachment would be ineffective and a collaboration with corruption that will taint any democrats who try it. Impeachment with a Realignment invitation could be highly effective. A carrot and stick. Motivation and safety. Fewer Republicans will cooperate with realignment if Bush and Cheney remain unscathed in office. The potential retribution from both the administration and from the right wing base will be too great. Real Realignment will only be possible in the context of Impeachment Hearings. Don't put the cart before the horse.
Counterpoint 11: Impeachment can happen before 2006 without changing composition of house. As more of the ugly details emerge, we will be surprised at how many Republicans are truely committed to our country more than their party or partisan polictics. Remember it was Republicans who finally demanded that Nixon leave. And even if we should fail, symbollicaly it makes an necessary point.
I have many other thoughts on this but I am trying to learn to be more succinct. Also, this is not my only issue. I don't really feel as strongly about it, as it may appear. It is just my opinion, that concentrating on accelerating this impeachment process is the most effective way I can help our party now. If folks here can convince me I am wrong I will leave this issue and work on something else. But I will not give up this flag just due to ridicule, browbeating, and harsh words received here.
Yes, you may ask for us to go elsewhere. It is your site. If you do I will leave politely. But, I don't believe a third party will be sufficiently strong by 2008 or even 2012 to take over the banner and responsibility for social progress, justice, intelligence, and compassion for the poorest amongst us. And this seems to be an important forum and idea "hot house" for democrats. I just hope those committed to winning in 2006 and 2008 stay open to the Big Tent idea of the party and not narrow it down so soon in the process.
Cheers, Thanks, and Good Luck.