Daily Kos

UPDATED: CBC blows lid off Iraq torture story

by chuckvw

Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 09:49:38 PM PDT

UPDATED: This fine documentary is now available online at the link below. Please excuse me if this link has already been posted. I've been away to Colorado for the holiday. A belated happy Thanksgiving to all!

This evening, the CBC's FIFTH ESTATE aired A FEW BAD APPLES, an hour-long documentary on torture (no longer merely alleged) at Abu Ghraib.

"A Few Bad Apples" tells the story... of the "bad apples" that the White House argued were, alone, responsible for the abuses in Abu Ghraib -- as well as another, bigger, story about politics and the war in Iraq.

More below.

How is it that Canadian reporters are able to find and interview military witnesses from the rank of private to general to describe prisoner abuse in Iraq, and our own MSM is barely able to muster lame verbal contortions about 'allegations of abuse,' etc.?

Young, inexperienced reserve soldiers like Israel Rivera were ordered to help break the detainees. Rivera told the fifth estate's Gillian Findlay: "I mean, prior to being an [intelligence] analyst I worked at Kentucky Fried Chicken, so it was quite a big jump from being a 19-year-old wage worker to, you know, people coming toward you and saying well, what do you think."

This extraordinary report will be available for online viewing tomorrow.  Catch it if you can.

Tags: Iraq, torture, Abu Ghraib, CBC (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 128 comments

  •  Tips appreciated! (4.00 / 92)

    www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

    by chuckvw on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 09:46:18 PM PDT

    •  Might be worth noting... (4.00 / 10)

      ..that CBC will be making the doco viewable online as of tomorrow.

      Also woth watching is the already online doco An Unauthorized Bigoraphy of Dick Cheney, which gave me nightmares for weeks.

      Fool me once, I'll punch you in the fucking head.

      by HollywoodOz on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 09:56:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it'll be replaying (4.00 / 7)

        Friday November 18th at 10:00pm EST again on the CBC just in case anyone gets the station ..

        "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

        by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:20:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  one of the best things (4.00 / 7)

          about Seattle is CBC!

          I've learned so much about my own county... and Curling!

          (-6.88, -8.31)--

          by binFranklin on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 11:40:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, come now. . . (none / 1)

            . . . you can actually do Curling - in Seattle. You don't have to just watch it on CBC.

            But be careful - a friend of mine broke his arm curling. . .

            "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful." -William Morris

            by Robespierrette on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 11:50:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  CBC is a Conservative Party of Canada target (none / 0)

            If they get majority status in the next parliament, you can be sure that this kind of journalism will disappear pronto.

            It will be replaced by a network whose politics are somewhere to the right of Conrad Black. (Maybe they'll fish him out of jail to run it!)

            Don't assume the CBC will always be here to do what your MSM ought to do.

            Ten years ago, they shut down the best show we ever had, one whose reporters CIA agents tried to kill--Sunday Morning.

            Those guys opened the lid on Iran Contragate and the CIA cocaine flights.

            The CBC is a fragile treasure we almost lost this summer. WIthout it we have NO news. Guess you won't, either.

            Parliamentary committee to review the CBC mandate

            More from Public broadcasting.ca

            Alison

            by alisonk on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 09:49:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But do you think... (none / 0)

              ...that the Conservative Party will remain as powerful considering their open support for joining Bush in his Iraq War, considering Iraq's all going to hell now? It seems anyone who has voiced support for Bush is feeling it now, and not in a good way.

              The one threat of this becoming a reality, I see, is if a smaller minority party gains more popularity. Like the NDP (New Democratic Party), for example. They gained quite a few seats in the last major election. One of these smaller parties could take enough votes away from the Liberals that could make the Conservatives take majority. Of course, Stephen Harper as Prime Minister? It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

              All in all, though, I see most of Canada being pretty lefty. But I don't think the CBC is in danger yet. I think American politics influences that a lot. Bush's low numbers and failures will likely put a damper on the Conservative Party to the north, for their staunch support for what Bush believes in.

              Please forgive me if I sound new to all this, I'm a fairly new American expatriate in Canada (Vancouver actually, Seattle's equally wet neighbor to the north), and I'm only starting to crack into Canadian politics ;)

              "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." - President Thomas Jefferson

              by halfgeek on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 10:28:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Canadian Conservatives (none / 0)

                We will only know how much power they will have once the ballots are counted in January (?).

                They are opposed to CBC subsidies. They will reduce the influence and budget of the CBC.

                I don't know if their support for Bush's war is still an electoral issue. They won't be trumpeting it, that's for sure.

                The trouble is that the Libs are arrogant and corrupt, the Conservatives are neo fascists, and the NDP are not strong enough to look like a government.

                Too bad we can't all join the Bloc!

                Alison

                by alisonk on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 11:34:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Some comments from a Canadian (none / 0)

                It seems anyone who has voiced support for Bush is feeling it now, and not in a good way.

                It's not likely that the Conservatives will feel anything from this, aside from a jibe or two about what might have happened.  Since Canada is not participating in the war, it doesn't play at all in domestic politics.

                The one threat of this becoming a reality, I see, is if a smaller minority party gains more popularity. Like the NDP (New Democratic Party), for example. They gained quite a few seats in the last major election. One of these smaller parties could take enough votes away from the Liberals that could make the Conservatives take majority.

                Pollsters say that in our 3-party system, a party has to have at least 40% support to form a majority government.  It's unlikely that 40% of the electorate will ever support the Conservatives, regardless of what happens between the Liberals and NDP.  Pollsters have also noticed that when the Conservatives start gaining, people who are wavering between the Liberals and NDP tend to shift to the Liberals, giving them a sizable bounce that will counteract any Conservative gains.

                Of course, Stephen Harper as Prime Minister? It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

                Mine too, but such a government would likely be very unstable.  A Conservative/NDP alliance would be anathema to both parties, and a Conservative/Bloc alliance would look bad since separatism is on the rise in Quebec.  So Mr. Harper would be in power for a year, tops, and would be unable to do anything very controversial.

                For me, the best case scenario would be another Liberal minority government, which also seems to be the most likely scenario.  Both Conservatives and Liberals would likely get new leaders, and there are plenty of good, fresh candidates waiting in the wings on both sides.  Personally, I'd love to see Frank McKenna for the Liberals and Bernard Lord for the Conservatives.

                All in all, though, I see most of Canada being pretty lefty.

                Canada is diverse if anything, but then again, so is the United States.  I guess we are a little to the left, since even the right-wingers support universal health care (albeit with a few private-sector tweaks).

                Quite frankly, I have no affection for any of the federal parties and I wish I could vote for "none of the above" in the upcoming election.  Maybe I will vote for the Marijuana party.  Too bad the old Rhinoceros party folded ...

                by s20451 on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:13:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Just watched the Cheney doc, (none / 0)

        thanks for posting link to this.

        I hope he's frogmarched out of the white house. along with the rest of those bloodsuckers

        by eve on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:02:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's shocking, isn't it? (4.00 / 4)

          Anyone who hasn't seen it yet needs to not only download it, but also needs to send the link to everyone they know.

          The Manchurian Candidate is alive and well, and he owns Halliburton stock.

          Fool me once, I'll punch you in the fucking head.

          by HollywoodOz on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:34:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Available as a DVD? (none / 0)

        do they make these programs available on DVD?  I'd like to get one and show it at one of our humanist meetings.  We're focussing on the war.

        by Heart of the Rockies on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 11:53:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  why do canadians hate america? (none / 0)

      its hard to drink all day unless you start in the morning

      by The Exalted on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 09:34:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  More than just witnesses... (4.00 / 14)

    ...they seem to have found footage and pictures that the US media hasn't been able to manage. Not to mention first-hand accounts that tell it like it is - that it was policy to torture.

    Damning documentary, and one that should blow the roof off the White House, if only Americans could get a look at it.

    Fool me once, I'll punch you in the fucking head.

    by HollywoodOz on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 09:50:14 PM PDT

  •  Looks great - thanks (none / 0)

    The hottest places in hell are reserved for those, who in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. - Dante

    by GinaNY on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:07:10 PM PDT

  •  Also... (4.00 / 9)

    CBC Sunday Report will have a documentary (obviously, on Sunday) on the Fallujah WP allegations... there was a teaser segment tonight on The National. The admission that White Phosphorus was used as an offensive weapon was a top news story.

    "Be prepared for anything at any time from anybody, don't take no shit, always stand your ground." - Blaise Bailey Finnegan III

    by Cletus from Canuckistan on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:13:15 PM PDT

    •  Indeedy! (4.00 / 3)

      They had a great report on The National tonight, highlighting the Pentagon's admission that WP was used as a weapon.  The Sunday Report piece will interview two former US soldiers involved in Fallujah who are now speaking out about what happened there.

      "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

      by fishhead on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:27:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah... (4.00 / 2)

      I saw that as well... I have a SNEAKING feeling that this particular report is going to be HUGE...

      I know I for one, will be watching for SURE on Sunday night... (it plays at 10:00 EST on the CBC) and 9:00 pm EST on CBCnewsworld..

      "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

      by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:52:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Smart White Phosphorus (4.00 / 8)

      This straightens it all out.


       Washington, D.C. - November 16 - (AP)  Pentagon officials announced today that white phosophorus, or WP, was used as an offensive weapon against Iraqi insurgents in the battle waged by coalition forces in the city of Fallujah earlier this year.  This is a revision of earlier Pentagon denials of using WP.

       General Buck Turgidson, who commanded "Operation Smells Like Victory" in Fallujah, stated during a press conference that, while WP was used against Iraqis by way of both artillary rounds and in airstrikes, the particular and previously unknown type of WP was incapable of harming civilians.

       "We call it 'Smart Willie'," said Turgidson.  "Willie Peter" or "Willie Pete" is military slang for white phosphorus.

       "You see, Smart Willie only burns, burns through or melts the skin off the bad guys," said Turgidson.  "The boys in the lab have developed a heck of a weapon that I wouldn't mind having put to use in the streets of New Orleans a couple of months ago, or in San Fransico, for that matter," said Turgidson.

       Pentagon officials confirm that the updated form of WP contains a molecular additive capable of distinguishing people with evil intent from innocent bystanders.  

       According to General Turgidson, and as proof of the weapon's non lethal nature to civilians, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld uses Smart Willie to brush his teeth with and Vice President Dick Cheney uses it as an after shower body spray.  These claims have yet to be confirmed.

       In recent days, internet bloggers and Old Europe television programs have claimed that the WP used in Fallujah indiscriminately killed or maimed scores of civilians, including children.  The Pentagon has denied these allegations.

        BenGoshi
      __________________

      "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

      by BenGoshi on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:03:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Just Finished Watching It on W. Coast (4.00 / 12)

    How is it that Canadian reporters are able to find and interview military witnesses from the rank of private to general to describe prisoner abuse in Iraq, and our own MSM

    Your question answers itself: "Canadian reporters" vs. "our own MSM" --that is, 'media.'

    Our media don't have many reporters, and those they've got don't appreciate having to wander around digging out stories as they did during the Sheehan-Katrina Vacation when there was nobody from government in town to hand them their stories.

    And CBC is public broadcasting in a country not ruled by Neo Cons.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:14:49 PM PDT

    •  asdf (4.00 / 3)

      just finished watching it also. Amazing interviews of U.S. military-current and former-conducted by Canadian journalists. Very painful to watch and high recommended. Not at all making light of the situation- in another media 'medium' in May of '04 Ted Rall portrayed the 'few bad apples' here: http://www.ucomics.com/...

      Highly recommend this diary and viewing of the documentary.

      by catapult on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:24:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Heyyyy.... (4.00 / 8)

    Be sure to update or re-link this diary once the video is up tomorrow - I'd hate this to see this diary just scroll off the page unnoticed...

    "Be prepared for anything at any time from anybody, don't take no shit, always stand your ground." - Blaise Bailey Finnegan III

    by Cletus from Canuckistan on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:15:19 PM PDT

  •  Just so you know (4.00 / 13)

    This is the type of thing that makes Canadians hate Bush and come to places like Daily Kos......you guys need help.....all the help you can get to fight evil bastards like ROve Bush Cheney et al....

    www.DowningStreetMemo.com

    by Mikecan1978 on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:19:47 PM PDT

    •  Spot on (4.00 / 9)

      We do need some help.

      I'm glad that so many people from other parts of the world see this.

      We're not in this alone. Thank-you for realizing that the US doesn't have to be this way.

      phat

      Economic Left/Right: -7.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.54

      by phatass on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:43:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Love you Canadians!!!!! Keep us straight!!! n/t (none / 1)

      by Phil S 33 on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:05:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  indeed. (none / 1)

      sadly our infatuation with empire and militarism affects so many people (all over the world) who didn't vote for bush.

      and it's not just bush - although his administration represents the most immediate problem.

      somehow we have to learn (and not just americans here, although we are probably the worst offenders) how to live together - all the peoples of the world - with enough respect and dignity for each other  so that we are willing to share the resources of the world... while taking care of the planet so that the rights of future generations are also respected.

      thanks to all trying to help....

      by selise on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:57:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We need all the help we can get! (4.00 / 3)

    www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

    by chuckvw on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:21:09 PM PDT

  •  Do you know if it will be rebroadcast on any US (none / 0)

    network?

    "You needed a vehicle. The vehicle was W.M.D" Paul Wolfowitz

    by Just enough on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:23:46 PM PDT

    •  Occasionally (none / 0)

      PBS airs CBC documentaries.  As for the private and cable networks, I do not know.

      "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

      by fishhead on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:29:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  not sure about that.... (4.00 / 2)

      but many documentaries that do play on the CBC by either the program "The Fifth Estate" , "The Passionate Eye" or even just some that play on the network as part of programming can be found on a torrent website:

      www.chomskytorrents.org

      its obviously not affiliated with the CBC in any way, but many of the documentaries that I've seen and found to be incredibly informative can be downloaded from this site, and viewed (obviously, you just need to download a torrent player)...

      the site has a rather large selection of documentaries... from many sources, PBS, international, "Democracy now" etc.... for programs such as that, its a good source.

      "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

      by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:32:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  sorry (none / 0)

        http://www.chomskytorrents.org/...

        "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

        by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:33:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for that link. (none / 0)

          by herenow on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:37:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  not a problem.. (4.00 / 3)

            may I also suggest a documentary that was also available on that site (chomskytorrents) that played on the CBC and on the Australian Public Broadcasting Co. called "Enemy Image".....

            its a remarkable documentary that takes a look at the American Military's 'spin' on their own war reporting, and contains never before seen footage of both the first Iraq war as well as from Vietnam.

            It also goes into the CURRENT war... and the 'strategies' used by the military to severely restrict the access of journalists in Iraq.  There are also interviews with Morley Safer (60 Minutes) the late Peter Jennings and the AMAZING story of an NBC reporter who was fired during the first Iraq war when he tried to get footage of civilian casualties he'd taped on television.... (that was quite the story, there's more to it)...highly recommend it ... might have to scroll through a few pages to find it.

            "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

            by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:47:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  If you have broadband (4.00 / 2)

      or a friend who has broadband, you can view it here starting tomorrow.

      www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

      by chuckvw on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:39:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Available online on November 17th (4.00 / 5)

      According to the site, this will be available online on the 17th.

      Ideally, you can download it.

      If you need help figuring out how, here's two tools that could help:

      URL Snooper, to find the physical file location and format, and VLC Media Player to download the streaming video to disk if you can't directly save the file after locating it with URL Snooper.

      Have fun. :)

      Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
        Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
      Tempest even in reason's seat.

      by GreyHawk on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 12:27:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Grey Hawk (4.00 / 3)

        This double link and complete explanation for their use
        Ideally, you can download it.
        If you need help figuring out how, here's two tools that could help:
        URL Snooper, to find the physical file location and format, and VLC Media Player to download the streaming video to disk if you can't directly save the file after locating it with URL Snooper.
        is outstanding. Too bad I can't give you a 4 for each link. Thanks.

        To chuckvw, great diary, attracted great [helpful/useful] additions, thanks much.

        Ole! Canada!

        "McCain lies 50% of the time; I'm not exactly sure about what, since he's on both sides of every issue." -Texasblu

        by davidincleveland on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:01:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  seconded... (none / 0)

          greyhawk, i agree with davidincleveland - thanks for the url snooper link.

          my only problem is that i use apple computers.... do you know of a something similar that will run on OSX?

          if not, i can ask a friend with a pc to "snoop the url" for me, and then download to my ibook.

          many thanks for an excellent link.

          by selise on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 04:06:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No Mac stuff yet... (none / 0)

            I haven't seen anything for the Mac / OSX yet for the URL Snoopers ... can you run it emulation on your mac?

            Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
              Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
            Tempest even in reason's seat.

            by GreyHawk on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 06:45:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  thanks for the reply... (none / 0)

              " can you run it emulation on your mac?"

              didn't even know that was a possibility!

              by selise on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 07:30:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Might be possible... (none / 1)

                ...there are Windows emulators available for the Mac which permit you to run various flavors of Windows. Dunno how well they'll work with URL sniffing software, but I've heard good things about them in the past.

                Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
                  Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
                Tempest even in reason's seat.

                by GreyHawk on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 08:17:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Glad you like the vid tools (none / 0)

          Given that "we *are* the media" now, we should be able to grab, edit, and display clips (giving proper credits, of course, just like with our blog cites) the same as any other multimedia outlet.

          ;)

          Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
            Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
          Tempest even in reason's seat.

          by GreyHawk on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 08:19:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you. (none / 0)

          www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

          by chuckvw on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 08:23:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The Fifth Estate is... (4.00 / 6)

    ... an amazing program.  

    They have covered a number of issues with compelling interviews and arguments that are unparalleled on network television.  

    I don't know if they have their entire library available on the net for download, but they should. Everyone here would appreciate the work they do.

    by herenow on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:35:43 PM PDT

    •  I agree... (4.00 / 4)

      so is "The Passionate Eye" and "The Nature of Things" (with David Suzuki)...

      There are just some things that I really am thankful I've grown up with, ie/ programs like that, and of course, 'The National' every night... there's just something comforting about the CBC, maybe I've gotten so used to being ANGRY at the 'reporting' (or lack-thereof) of other network news stations, or cable news stations like CNN, that when I now see GOOD reporting, I just breathe a sigh of satisfaction....

      Its sad, I remember a time when the "news" used to be just that, one story after another, informative, unbiased.  Now its all spin spin spin by talking heads and 'professional opinions' by people who've really got NO other qualifications other than; they have strong opinions.  Pathetic really...

      "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

      by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 11:15:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Passionate eye (none / 1)

        is great- which means that sometimes it's great and sometimes its sucks...

        Freedom to fail is freedom to achieve greatness.

        Support the Wood County Democratic Party!

        by Earl from Ohio on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 05:14:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You're absolutely right... (4.00 / 2)

        I have to admit, two of the things I've enjoyed most since moving to Canada have been 'The Fifth Estate' and basically the news reporting in general.  That, and the fact that 'The Simpsons' or 'Futurama' seem to be on somewhere 24 hours a day. :)  Seriously, though, it's amazing -- and disheartening -- watching a news story on the CBC and then switching to CNN to see the differences.  I'll definitely be forwarding the video link on to several friends still back in the U.S.

        by daubs on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 07:47:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you know... (none / 0)

          I honestly think the CBC has had a HUGE part in the way our society in Canada thinks on a WHOLE about many situations in the world, and has for years...

          I think because of the quality of information Canadians have been fortunate enough to receive over the years via the CBC and its affiliated programs, Canadian SOCIETY itself has progressed in the direction it has.

          Things like the general sentiment in the country about this Iraq war, Vietnam etc, was probably directly linked to the fact that Canadians had received 'info' about the developing situation in Iraq (or lack thereof in terms of WMD's) long before things like 'Presidential Addresses'...
          Coupled with the fact that we GET all of the American networks as part of our basic cable, and get CNN etc etc... we are able to see a difference, you're right, a MARKED difference in the way topics are covered.

          Its sad, I think the news in America is MUCH more 'market driven' and therefore woefully inept of late at providing a true picture of reality in many instances that, and the obvious biases/conflicts of interest that will exist when any 'mega-corporation' owns a major news source.  But I think its getting better.... I HOPE its getting better, I saw some good signs immediately after the Katrina aftermath, but I'm still quite aware that the American media 'edits'/censors alot of its info...

          "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

          by hopefulcanadian on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 08:12:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're right (4.00 / 3)

            I've often explained to my family back home that people here just don't get good news programming.  If you're fed a constant diet of hype and fear you begin to believe it.   My mother in law saw the Ann Coulter piece this summer and couldn't believe her - she thought she was some kind of staged theatre piece.  

            The idea that you could have a debate where one person isn't shouting the other person down is ...well...foreign.  

            The truth is out there...

            by confusedintexas on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 08:28:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Fantastic Catch (4.00 / 2)

    We've got the coward Bob It's So Sad Woodward and they've got Gillian Findlay. Whose media is more advanced?

    I'm Ron Shepston and I'm not done yet. There's much left to accomplish.

    by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:40:14 PM PDT

  •  Where's the pictures? (4.00 / 4)

    I hate to sound like an S&M freak, but wasn't there a deadline missed for some pictures?

    We are living in an interminable succession of absurdities imposed by the myopic logic of short-term thinking. Jacques Cousteau

    by supak on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:41:16 PM PDT

  •  Can't wait to see it! (4.00 / 7)

       

    Anyone want to see a CBC reporter try to convince Anne Coulter that Canada did NOT send troops to Vietnam?

    I'm not making this up.

    See the video HERE.


    THANK YOU FOR NOT IMPEACHING THE WAR CRIMINALS AND TERRORIST ENABLERS. Next Stop: Iran. You're on a roll, Congress! -- FUCK, YEAH!!

    by STOP George on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 11:00:08 PM PDT

    •  lol... (none / 1)

      I saw that... I laugh EVERY time I see her sitting there fumbling, and then her ridiculous repetitions of "I think you're WRONG.... " all nasally-voiced..... and Bob Armstrong calmly saying, "Canada did not send troops to Vietnam, you are mistaken"... that was also "The Fifth Estate"...

      "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

      by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 11:20:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  crap.. (none / 0)

        I meant Bob McKeown.... not Armstrong...

        (I think I was WRONG).. lol sorry

        "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

        by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 11:25:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I know... (4.00 / 7)

        It was almost as good as hearing the new Ambassador to Canada (earlier this year, I believe) on CBC Radio's "As it Happens" talk about his only trip to Canada previous to him becoming ambassador 30 YEARS AGO!!!

        A brief excerpt from the transcript:

        AIH (As it Happens): Have you ever been to Canada before?

        Wilkins: Ah, many years ago when I was in the Army stationed in Indiana my wife and I visited Canada.

        AIH: Oh yes, where did you go?

        Wilkins: Eh, it was, uh, around the uh, the falls area, Niagra Falls, back up in there round uh that area as well as uh going I guess back toward, back West toward , toward Indiana, well obviously aboveIndiana but I'd have to get out a map to tell you all, it's been thirty-something years now since we were there but we enjoyed our visit and we cannot wait to get back.

        And that was the American Ambassador to Canada, ladies and gentlemen!


        THANK YOU FOR NOT IMPEACHING THE WAR CRIMINALS AND TERRORIST ENABLERS. Next Stop: Iran. You're on a roll, Congress! -- FUCK, YEAH!!

        by STOP George on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 12:42:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No troops, but... (none / 1)

        He's right, we did not send troops to Vietnam.

        But our secret shame is that we did help produce an awful lot of Agent Orange that went to Vietnam

        -- We need more trees and fewer Bushes

        by Sarkasba on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 05:44:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Crush Canada???!!!!! (4.00 / 3)

      No way I'm fuckin' with a country that produced Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, and Dave "Hammer" Schultz......the Neocons may be dumb...but they can't be that fucking dumb.

      by Chuckster on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 05:54:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  She? looks like Todd Rundgren there. (none / 1)

      No offence to Todd Rundgren.

      by lecsmith on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 07:00:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bad Apples? (4.00 / 19)

    But it was just a few bad apples:

    Cheney
    Rumsfeld
    Ashcroft
    Gonzalez

    The White House Iraq Group:
        * Karl Rove
        * Karen Hughes
        * Mary Matalin
        * Andrew Card
        * James R. Wilkinson
        * Nicholas E. Calio
        * Condoleezza Rice
        * Stephen Hadley
        * I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby

    The Pro-Torture Senators:
        #  Wayne Allard - Colorado
        # Kit Bond - Missouri
        # Tom Coburn - Oklahoma
        # Thad Cochran - Mississippi
        # John Cornyn - Texas
        # James Inhofe - Oklahoma
        # Pat Roberts - Kansas
        # Jeff Sessions - Alabama
        # Ted Stevens - Alaska

    The US Media:


    No pretensions to legal scholarship attended the pro-torture shoutfest that took place on the McLaughlin Group's November 9 show, where four out of five of the panelists endorsed torture. The Washington Times' Tony Blankley and MSNBC's Laurence O'Donnell joined host John McLaughlin and National Review editor Rich Lowry in approval of torture. Only Newsweek's Eleanor Clift objected. (When Clift asked her co-panelists where they would send suspects for torture, McLaughlin shouted, "The Filipinos!" while Lowry barked, "The Turks!")

    On October 26 CNN news anchor Paula Zahn pressed Philadelphia police commissioner John Timoney, trying to get him to endorse extra-legal means in the case of terror suspects. When she asked him if "beatings" might be appropriate, Timoney stood his ground: "No. No. This is America, you know."

    A day later on CNN's Crossfire (10/27/01), conservative Tucker Carlson was succinct: "Torture is bad. Keep in mind, some things are worse. And under certain circumstances, it may be the lesser of two evils. Because some evils are pretty evil."

    And many, many more.

    An "eminent" legal scholar (or at least he thinks so)
    Alan Dershowitz:


    In the November 8 Los Angeles Times, legal scholar and columnist Alan Dershowitz suggested that torture is not unconstitutional--as long as "the fruits of such techniques" are not used against the subject in a criminal trial, since that would violate the subject's Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Because torture is not unconstitutional and just may be necessary in extreme cases, argues Dershowitz, it ought to be supervised by special judge-administered "torture warrants."

    And, of course, GWB himself:

     A former senior administration official involved in discussions about CIA interrogation techniques said Bush's aides knew he wanted them to take an aggressive approach.

    "He felt very keenly that his primary responsibility was to do everything within his power to keep the country safe, and he was not concerned with appearances or politics or hiding behind lower-level officials," the official said. "That is not to say he was ready to authorize stuff that would be contrary to law. The whole reason for having the careful legal reviews that went on was to ensure he was not doing that."

    .......

    In the view expressed by the Justice Department memo, which differs from the view of the Army, physical torture "must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." For a cruel or inhuman psychological technique to rise to the level of mental torture, the Justice Department argued, the psychological harm must last "months or even years."

    .......

    The document provided legal guidance for the CIA, which crafted new, more aggressive techniques for its operatives in the field. McClellan called the memo a historic or scholarly review of laws and conventions concerning torture.

    One bad apple spoils the whole bunch, right?

    Worst.  President.  Ever.

    A true leader would have realized this:

    Torture is considered a crime against humanity, and that is why no exceptions are provided for it in the Geneva Convention, which reads: "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."

    EVER

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato

    by Bcre8ve on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 11:02:40 PM PDT

  •  John Yoo (4.00 / 3)

    One of the legal/judicial "geniuses" behind the rationale that torture is acceptable, necessary and nutritious too is also interviewed.

    From the Bad Apples website:

    John Yoo is a legal scholar who helped re-define the term "torture" for the Bush White House.

    He explained the rational [sic] for doing so to Gillian Findlay: "I don't see why we ought to follow a policy that was created for wars between nation states that follow the laws of war when we're fighting an opponent that violates all the laws of war."

    So he is "learned". He's also either incredibly puerile or stuck in the 7th century--B.C. I thought getting beyond the simplistic notion of an eye for an eye was a sign of civilized society. Apparently you can teach at Stanford and still believe there's no greater innovation in law than Hammurabi's Code.

    Of course, this kind of over-simplified dualism is what endeared him to Bush and Ashcroft.

    -8.38, -4.97 "...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

    by thingamabob on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 11:23:01 PM PDT

    •  Berkeley, actually, not Stanford. (none / 0)

      Believe it or not!

      Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. - John Stuart Mill

      by vulcangrrl on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 12:51:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Berkeley, Stanford - what's the diff? (none / 0)

        ;)

        "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

        by fishhead on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 08:02:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hey there's a big diff (none / 0)

          Although since Condi was chancellor of Stanford, they seem to have each hired their share of politically connected pseudo-academics.

          -8.38, -4.97 "...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

          by thingamabob on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 11:29:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Politics & Economics (none / 1)

          Private Stanford - Home of the Hoover Institute.  Started by Republican Leland Stanford.  Alums: Herbert Hoover, Anthony Kennedy, William Rehnquist.  Past professors: Condoleeza Rice, Michael Boskin.

          Public Cal Berkeley - Home of the free speech movement.  Famous Alums: John Kenneth Galbraith,
          Jerry Brown.  Professors: Brad DeLong.

          by MyPOV on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 11:41:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  a related diary (none / 1)

      was posted on dKos by soyinkafan a few days ago. Perhaps Yoo, etc. won't get away with it?

      Cheney's Nemesis - the long arm of int'l law
      Excerpt:

      "The potential problem for Yoo, vice presidential chief of staff David Addington and others who may have been associated with torture, is to be found in Article 4 of the convention. This section criminalizes not only the act of torture itself but also other acts, including "an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture."

      Pre-empt Vergangenheitsbewältigung!

      by Petrasays on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 06:12:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Canadians (4.00 / 7)

    How is it that Canadian reporters are able to find and interview military witnesses from the rank of private to general to describe prisoner abuse in Iraq, and our own MSM is barely able to muster lame verbal contortions about 'allegations of abuse,' etc.?

    Because Canadians are the most sinister and psychologically devious people on the planet.

    -6.00, -7.03
    Obama '08

    by johnsonwax on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 11:56:14 PM PDT

  •  Last year (4.00 / 2)

    CBC aired a devastating hour documenting Bush's Saudi ties.  Had it been seen here in the states (beyond the northern tier, which is already blue), Bush would not have been electable.  CBC kicked a litle ass that night, and I don't need to repeat his name.

    "You can't negotiate with reality" - James Kunstler

    by Bob Love on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:37:11 AM PDT

  •  I'm Aware (none / 0)

    Of the show and how reputable it is, but I hope they went alot further than the "bad apples" who are taking the fall for a policy of torture adopted by this administration. Torture was okayed as an interrogation method by the very top dogs in the administration, yet the only people being punished for doing it are uneducated privates with no training in handling prisoners.

    More Republican "support" for our troops.

    by Burton Halli on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:47:10 AM PDT

    •  they did (4.00 / 2)

      It was a powerful and revealing expose on the whole torture debacle. It explained how administration policies muddied the water enough to allow people to think they actually SHOULD torture people.

      Many of the people vilified in the American press acting on tip from a crroked administration were actually given a much more sympathetic ear on this special and it was clear that the overall impression was these people were set up to take the fall for those who are really to blame. The "bad apple" title was more that this show seemed to question whether they really were "bad apples" and not scape goats.

      Thats what I got out of it anyway. If the American public could see shows of this calibre things would be different in the US. I'm sure of it.

      "Not all who wander are lost"

      by mysticl on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 08:04:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Malkin Minion blows lid off evil Canadian tyranny (4.00 / 4)

    This is too dumbass stupid to waste bandwidth, but too hilariously determined to expose Canadian evil to ignore entirely, so I'm putting it here for posterity:

    Malkin's guest flogger was quoted at Blogoland (link via Atrios):

    Keep a sharp eye on fresh developments in both Canada and Cuba, two countries with rogue, corrupt and repressive regimes that don't know when to cut their losses and leave town. (11/16/05 michellemalkin.com / Maloney)

    (Canada, you old tuque-wearing rogue oppressor you!)

    And, hrmmm, leave town? I missed the modern political practice of party experiencing a poll slide voluntarily exiling itself ... um, or else. Malkin's Minion links to but doesn't quote the source of the dire "analysis":

    On the cusp of a no-confidence motion, the Liberal Party faces an increasingly hostile political environment, a new poll by SES research indicates. The Liberals have lost ground across the entire nation, both in total and within each region, with most of the gains going to the NDP (via Newsbeat1). They now lead the Conservatives by only a six-point margin, down by half in three weeks (Oct 27 poll in parentheses) (11/16/05 Captain's Quarters)

    With the gains going lefward ho, to the left-of-mainstream-Lib NDP party -- instead of to the static, loathed, toupee-ridden Conservative party --  I'm not sure why Malkin's Minion is doing that weird wingnut prance they so love, other than, they must shake their codpieces over some imagined advance in their War on Whatever. (I always thought it was the latest hot water shrinking the tighty whities again, compounding the ongoing slow descent into madness.)

    And if a luge down the polls means packing up and leaving town, does this mean the regime of Smirk & Sneer should do it, FUCKING YESTERDAY ALREADY???
    .

    by Peanut on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:48:31 AM PDT

    •  You know what they say... (none / 0)

      I'm pretty sure that Lester Pearson said: "the NDP are only Liberals in a hurry".

      by Digitking on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 05:32:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  toque, please (none / 1)

      okay, just to keep it straight:

      a "toque" is a knitted cap, often with a pompon on the top.

      a "tuuk" is a trademarked high-tech plastic skate-blade holder.

      a "tuque" is a typo. or a misspelling.

      That's a great line by Lester B, but nowadays, i think it would be more accurate to say that a conservative is a liberal on meth. or something.

      I am further of the opinion that the President must be impeached and removed from office!

      by UntimelyRippd on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 07:11:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I beg to differ, eh? (none / 1)

        Tuque is an acceptable spelling, and most importantly, doesn't influence the attractiveness or effectiveness of the (IMO indispensible) item.
        .
        I have one for every occasion, including formal events.
        .

        by Peanut on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 07:24:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, okay (none / 0)

          But only because you begged.

          Wikipedia allows both spellings. It also says the word is Canadian French, but I thought the French revolutionaries also wore headgear they called "toques". In which case, I should think the Academie Francaise would have the last word.

          I am further of the opinion that the President must be impeached and removed from office!

          by UntimelyRippd on Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 06:55:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Wingnuts don't need popularity, just elections (none / 1)

      They're not concerned about "winning" the vote, as of counting more votes. That's an important distinction.

      (Though Harper and the gang are so loathsomely mediocre, and their vision so one-eyed that they have no legitimate shot--unless the Libs commit suicide and the NDP become collateral damage)

      -8.38, -4.97 "...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

      by thingamabob on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 11:33:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  speaking of Iraq torture (4.00 / 4)

    I posted a diary last night that slipped away into oblivion about torture done by the Iraqi government, emphasizing how Iraq is no better off than before. Give it a click if you're interested.

    by georgia10 on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 04:06:14 AM PDT

  •  Whenever they say it's a few bad apples... (4.00 / 4)

    start looking at the tree!

    Democrats Will Win if We Are The Party of the People see: Progressive Populism

    by jsmckay on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 04:13:02 AM PDT

  •  Numbers, sickening numbers (none / 1)

    Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Canary Islands, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Morocco, Poland, Romania, and Spain are all reporting torture flights through their countries. There are probably more. That's 12 countries at the least. And they are reporting like 50 flights, plus or minus. That's 600 flights. I'm sure that the planes contained more than one prisioner going to be tortured. Let's say 20 per flight...That 12,000 people!!! I wonder what the real number will turn out to be. How many went through Great Britain?

    The Justice Department is no longer a credible defender of the rule of law or the Constitution.

    by Overseas on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 04:14:53 AM PDT

  •  Why do Canadians hate America? (none / 0)

    Oh right.  They's furriners.  They can't hep theyselves.  <snark>

    "I just had the basic view of the American public -- it can't be that bad out there." Marine Travis Williams after 11 members of his squad were killed.

    by Steven D on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 04:22:07 AM PDT

  •  Sometimes the CBC.. (none / 1)

    kicks the crap out of American TV.

    I watched the whole thing. Amazing.

    Support the Wood County Democratic Party!

    by Earl from Ohio on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 05:07:41 AM PDT

  •  I always wondered why Comcast (none / 1)

    never offers regular CBC news programming  (or any significant internationally based (European, Irish, Australian etc) independent English language channels    among their 60-300+ cable channel service lineup here in the midwest.

    Are the powers that be concerned that average Americans might see too many programs like this one, which contradict the Bush lies and war propaganda, and begin to wake up and seriously question the Bush regime?

    by shumard on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 05:42:05 AM PDT

    •  I imagine that the original presumption (none / 1)

      was just kind of insular: not enough people would be interested in the CBC.

      These days, as far as our cable offerings in the U.S. are concerned, I think there is probably a deliberate policy of having the MSM as the only source of information (although you can get CBC and CTV on cable in cities like Burlington, VT and Watertown, NY). We can't even get CNN International anymore. It has some excellent correspondents.

      by lecsmith on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 07:15:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  CBC was on US cable (none / 1)

      This was the NWI network that Gore bought and it became Current -the news MTV.

      Wow! Slightly OT - CNN looks like it just grow some balls.  It just did a fact check of the GOP talking points that all the the foreign intelligence said that Iraq had WMDs.  Clip after clip of Russian, French and Germany leaders saying "we don't think" so before the war.

      That and an influential house Dem calling for immediate withdrawal - does Canadian air carry testerone?

      Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest Compass: -4.63, -4.10

      by eleming on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 11:25:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I love the CBC (4.00 / 2)

    So glad to see it has traction for US viewers too.

    If the CBC was ever in trouble, and every citizen was asked to pay $50 to save it, I would pay $100 or $150.  

    We're all in this together.  I know during our gay marriage debate earlier in the year, tons of american conservatives felt no compunctions at getting involved to help block gay marriage up here.

    Globalization means politics too, IMO.  The vast powers and money accumulated by the American conservatives makes me nervous they'll turn their gaze north and start pumping money into our own dilapidated neo-cons and religious right.  

    So I'm glad our CBC might help tilt things a tiny bit back to the centre for American political discourse.  

    Of course, the right wing (even here) just writes the CBC off as left wing, but they do that of any truthful source.  Sorry the facts are against you guys.

    John McCain opposed SCHIP

    by Scientician on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 08:24:23 AM PDT

  •  Don't underestimate KFC (none / 1)

    At Kentucky Fried Chicken, the Colonel has ways... to make you talk!!!

    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

    by rmwarnick on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 08:38:41 AM PDT

  •  Don't forget frontline's documentary (none / 0)

    PBS' Frontline also had a good documentary on torture.  Check it out: http://www.pbs.org/...

    Why is it privatly funded Media outlets won't touch this issue?

    by gaber on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:09:26 PM PDT

Permalink | 128 comments