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A Shameful Episode for the Los Angeles Times

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Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:33:08 PM PST

Today, Jonah Goldberg made his editorial page debut in the Los Angeles Times:

STOP ME IF YOU'VE heard this already. But there are people out there -- honest, decent, sincere people and deranged moonbats, too -- who think that George W. Bush lied about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein. No, seriously, it's true.

OK, let's stop right there. You might think this would be a good time to fisk the column in entirety; quite frankly, though, it is a rather pedestrian Jonah Goldberg submission. Goldberg is truly the George W. Bush of punditry -- installed in his chosen field through the graces of his mother, noted right-wing voice Lucianne Goldberg, from whom Jonah inherited much of his rather inexplicable world viewpoints, but none of her omnipresent, easy vitriol or difficult-to-parody panache.

I want to talk about something else. Specifically, I want to talk about the words deranged moonbats, and the editorial goals and standards of the Los Angeles Times.

We got precisely into the second sentence of the first piece of Jonah Goldberg's first column before devolution into talk of "deranged" non-honest, non-decent, non-sincere opponents. From there, we slide into nothing better. We are told, in so many words, that the speeches about mushroom clouds and African uranium never happened; that the State of the Union address was a figment of our imaginations so powerful that it imprinted itself onto the videotapes of the world through our collective, "deranged" wills; and yet at the same time, that Saddam Hussein was a Hitlerian figure who posed such a serious threat to our nation that historians should be "forgiving of deceit".

In short, Goldberg cannot even keep a consistency of his most basic premise -- whether the war was about WMDs and preemption, or whether such talk of WMDs and preemption is "deranged" -- even between his own shabbily constructed paragraphs. Talk of the derangement of his opponents is perhaps, then, premature.

We are entering a time when conservatives, after having repeatedly shoved the discourse of the country into a series of ever-deeper ravines via the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, Michelle Malkin and an unending stream of similar though lesser clones, are now professing outrage that they are being attacked according to the same crude, boorish standards that they have made part and parcel of their movement. While I, as a blogger, could not possibly care less about their belated protestations of civility, I will admit to the Los Angeles Times right here and now, as a reader, that I expect a level of discourse greater than that low mark in the objective, non-partisan press -- even in the editorial section.

There is a difference between the level of debate worthy of Internet blogs, and the level of debate worthy of one of the nation's largest and most respected newspapers. Chief among those differences would be the relevance of declaring opponents "deranged moonbats". During the last Democratic National Convention, Ann Coulter managed to get one of her columns axed from USA Today because the majority of her insights consisted of, among other things, paragraphs describing herself and fellow Republicans as "prettier" than the Democratic participants, observations that many of the featured speakers should have been put in cages, and declarations calling the Democrats the "French Party".

The Los Angeles Times would have done well to follow the example.

In the end, the Los Angeles Times, as with every other paper in the nation, has a basic decision to make. What is the purpose of editorial content? Is it meant to educate readers? To debate issues? To provide new, original ideas that cannot or will not be presented by the politically powerful? To attack? Or simply as masturbatory fodder for those few readers who treat their political affiliations with the all-encompassing fervor that they treat sports franchises, less concerned with either education, debate, knowledge or accuracy than with half-drunken taunts at the opposing team?

Columns like Goldberg's -- not merely vapid according to the usual standards of embedded political apologists everywhere, but boring, trite and unimaginative even within that already shabby, inbred world -- serve none of these purposes, save perhaps the last.  I wonder, then, at the possible motivations for giving yet another tedious political hack yet another audience with readers who are, in the majority, both more honest and more intelligent than he is.

The Los Angeles Times has every right to devolve. But in raising deranged moonbats as the level of discourse that they now deem as deserving of offering up to their readers, they do their readers -- and the industry in general -- a disservice. There may come a point when internet blogs and national editorial pages converge on the same tenor, respectability, and quality of voice; I, for one, was hoping that it would not be the national editorial pages that would sink in order to meet the worst of the lot halfway.

In all bluntness, to the editors of the Los Angeles Times: that I, as a blogger, can understand the differences between random partisan blog posts and the quality of debate deserving of wider publication, and adjust my own writing to respect and accommodate either -- and that Jonah Goldberg, apparently, cannot -- should give you even greater insight into the qualities of discourse that you see fit to highlight as an alleged leading voice of the conservative movement.

This episode marks another low point in the ongoing dissolution of the editorial integrity of the Los Angeles Times. Let us hope they treat their readers, in the immediate future, with less abject and condescending contempt.

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Tags: Los Angeles Times, Jonah Goldberg, media (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 211 comments

  •  Loud Noise (none / 0)

    They replaced Scheer with the son of Lucianne Goldberg?

    That sound you heard was my brain imploding....

    •  Tell the LA Times what you think (none / 0)

      There is a little comment symbol on the page at the LAT. Tell them what you really think about Jonah Goldberg over there. I'm sure they are not reading this site.

      Marshall

      •  Exactly! (none / 0)

        The LA Times needs to be barraged with arguments about how their latest columnist is a deranged moon... I mean, contemptible hack.  Maybe all attention is good, but personally if the attention were going toward something as embarassing as this, I might feel otherwise.

        "Milton Friedman's misfortune is that his policies have been tried."

        by el fuego on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:43:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  A truly embarrassing debut for Goldberg (none / 0)

          I can't believe we lose Scheer for this tripe.

          It's not bad enough that his inaugural column is outright insulting, it also nearly vaporous substantively. And, ironically, his premise that lying to the American people is acceptable is illsutrated nicely just a few pages earlier in an article headlined, "Declassified Memo Captures Nixon's Intention to Obscure the U.S. Campaign in Cambodia".

          In a memo from the meeting, Nixon told his military staff to continue doing what was necessary in Cambodia, but to say for public consumption that the United States was merely providing support to South Vietnamese forces when necessary to protect U.S. troops.

          "That is what we will say publicly," he said. "But now, let's talk about what we will actually do."

          Funny, Goldberg didn't bother to cite Nixon's demonstration of forgivable deceipt.


            • Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly FREAK SHOW Stickers •••

          by KingOneEye on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:39:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I diaried this subject myself this morning (none / 0)

        as it made me so sick.  But I have not yet cancelled my subscription--though I intend to.  More than cancelling, I'm trying to find a way to pay the money I would have spent on the daily LAT I'm currently getting to HuffPo.  I want to mail the reciept along with my LTE about how they have simply gone to hell.  I hope they enjoy the company down there in Hades.

        "There's been a little complication with my complication"

        by dash888 on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:32:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I cancelled my subscription (none / 0)

          just now. I can't see any reason to continue subscribing to their rag anymore. Even the TV section is always wrong.

          This is not my beautiful sig line.

          by Floja Roja on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:59:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I only get the Times on Sunday now (none / 1)

            Here's my email to the Opinion editor:

            Ok, so what's up with this new right-wing aura surrounding a lot of the articles in the Opinion section. Case in point: Jonah Goldberg calling those who disagree with the President's war in Iraq "deranged moonbats." This is exactly the reason why I canceled my subscription to the LA Times. We live in a BLUE state, yet we are forced to swallow the penmanship of right-wing thugs. People like me who tend to lean liberal politically are tired of the games and the nonsense that is displayed every Sunday in the Opinion section. And people like me are the reason why you guys have to cut back on staff and your circulation is falling. We're tired of the B.S. and the pandering to the Republican Party. It is disgraceful. It is dishonest. And it is a disservice to your readers and your paper.

            •  Less Liberal, Less Politcal (Andres Martinez) (none / 0)

              It's not the "Opinion" section anymore buddy, it's the "Current" section now. Get with the "less liberal, less political" program. And don't forget to celebrate Joel Stein's new promotion. Yay humor-gossip; Nay thoughtful analysis. Pass the kool aid.

              [no I'm not a troll, just very sarcastic]

      •  My Letter to the L.A. Times (none / 0)

        Dear Editor:

        I am appalled and disgusted that you have chosen to insult your readers by adding Jonah Goldberg as an editorial writer.

        Shame on you.  Why are you inflicting this fool on us?  

        I will cancel my subscription until you remove him from the paper.  He is worthless, and adds absolutely nothing.

        You are destroying the prestige of the paper by giving editorial space to a mindless idiot like Mr. Goldberg. Either he goes or I go.

        Thank you.

      •  Jonah (none / 0)

        can be e-mailed directly at JonahNRO@aol.com. Light him up.

        "Huge brains, small necks, weak muscles and fat wallets. These are the dominant physical characteristics of The Generation Of Swine".

        by runtothehills on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:54:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The LAT accepts 'deranged' and 'moonbats' (none / 0)

      ... as accurately describing the majority of people who believe the now repeatedly proven empirical evidence that the administration lied about Iraq?

      Maybe they should refer to their newest columnist as Crotch-Fruit Jonah Goldberg.
      .

      •  Bottom-Line... (none / 0)

        Is that these 'wing-bats' (can I say that on a blog? LOL) have been reduced to the Democracy In The Middle-East Argument. And Goldberg, in order to justify Bush's Lies invokes FDR as an example of why it was OK for Bush to Lie.

        Beware of Goldberg - - - He Sees Dead People.

        "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

        by talex on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:29:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  OK, so were moonbats... (none / 0)

        Quite a week - signing up for O'reilleys ememies list (still waiting for my tee-shirt), and now this - membership in the Deranged Moonbat club. Not a bad end to the week - although I would normally take the 'Deranged' part with some exception had it not come from the likes of Goldberg. In the bizzaro world he and his likes occupy, up is down, down is up, and deranged is downright sensible.

        Somebody give him a blow-job so we can impeach him, already!

        by Iguanamon on Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 06:25:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  don't waste your beautiful mind on Goldberg (none / 1)

      mother or son. Is it any wonder why print media is being deserted to bloggers?

      Let's stop feeding greed. In fact, propose we make it a commandment: The greedy shall not be fed.

      by idredit on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:11:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Speaking of Sheer (none / 1)

      The Big Lie Technique
      By Robert Scheer

      http://www.truthout.org/...

      "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

      by talex on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:24:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, it's true that the LA Times and WSJ (4.00 / 5)

      have much to be ashamed of.


      Jonah Goldberg, an idiotic jerk.

      When Goldberg equates Bush's lies to FDR's handling of WWII, and asserts that it's no big deal for a President to lie in great national interests he is going over the top for even neo-con crap.  Since FDR has been out of power for some time now, I won't respond to Goldberg's lying blame as far back as the 1930s to Bush's woes.  But I do take great issue with the assertion that all Bush did was make a simple series of lies about the reasons to invade Iraq.

      George Bush did more than lie about going to war with Iraq.  He sent he United States to war when he knew that there was not a credible threat to the United States.  The invasion of Iraq was a choice, an act of aggression.  And Americans don't support wars of choice and aggression, which is why Bush lied to America about his reasons for going to war.

      It is a fact that Saddam Hussein did not pose an immediate threat to the United States at the time that Bush led our country to war.  We know this because no nuclear weapons and no biological weapons programs were found.  This means that the status quo was working.  And it means that there was time to let the inspections and the sanctions continue to work.

      At the time of the invasion, Bush's White House made the following claims: (1) Saddam Hussein posed an immediate threat to the United States and its allies, and (2) the only available action was an invasion of Iraq.  Bush claimed that the US invasion of Iraq was defensive and in line with UN mandates, despite the refusal by the UN to sanction the invasion.  Bush made these claims before Congress in his State of the Union speech and then dispatched his Secretary of State to make the same claims before the UN.  Powell asserted the United States had reliable and undisputable evidence the Saddam Hussein posed an immediate threat to the United States and the world, thereby justifying an invasion.

      It is morally wrong for a more powerful nation to impose its will on other nations by brute force.  Wars of aggression like ours with Iraq cause tens of thousands of civilian deaths, without any moral or legal basis or justification.  The United States, along with the rest of the civilized world, have declared wars of aggression morally wrong in all cases.  We've made these declarations the law of the land, and have tried the leaders of rouge nations such as World War II Germany for violating the principles of legal warfare. If these principles are followed, no state-against-state wars would exist, since the only justification for war is defense.  Only aggressors are therefore to blame for the continuance of war. Bush has led the United States into becoming such an aggressor nation.

      Bush has done more than lead the United States into the aggressive invasion and occupation of Iraq.  He has sent a signal to the rest of the world: Arm or get invaded.  But demonstrating America's willingness to violate its own laws when it comes to warfare, Bush leaves other national leaders little option but to defend their interests by arming for defense.  And since the United States is both a military and economic power unrivaled by even the other richest nations in the world, the world's poorer nations will seek defense through the weapons of the weak: Terrorism, biological weapons and nuclear weapons.

      Bush's lie was not just about intelligence.  It was more about the nature of the war itself.  He claimed defense, when he meant offense. There are few Americans willing to give up American blood for anything other than the true defense of our nation.  And Bush knows this, which is why he boldly lied to the Congress and the American people.

  •  For this we lost Robert Scheer? (none / 0)

    Bleecccchhhh.

    <sound of cat coughing up furball>

    Back in my day you didn't recommend somebody, you called them an asshole. - sparks, DKos sage

    by occams hatchet on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:32:58 PM PST

    •  It made me gag.. (none / 0)

      ...my morning pancakes. And those are great pancakes! To be called a moonbat in my own home by my own newspaper! I'll start composing my LTE now.
    •  So here's my LTE . . . (4.00 / 4)

      Dashed this off quickly, giving it the proper deliberation it deserves:

      Editor:

      Re: "A lie for a just cause," Nov. 17

      LOVE the new humor columnist - what's his name, Judas Goldbrick? Golddigger? Goldschlager? Whatever - he is FUNNY! Whew! Haven't laughed that hard in a long time.

      HAHAHAHAHAHA! Next time, though, please give me fair warning before you replace a sober, serious writer like Robert Scheer with one of the guys from Bill Maher's show. I mean, how can you expect me to read something so hysterical, and keep down my breakfast!? I almost sprayed my Bran Flakes all over my sudoku!

      Woo-hooo! What's next - Jon Stewart for Jonathan Chait? Ah-HAH-ha-ha-ha-HAH!

      You guys crack me up.

      Sincerely,
      Occam's Hatchet


      Back in my day you didn't recommend somebody, you called them an asshole. - sparks, DKos sage

      by occams hatchet on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:26:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here's mine: (4.00 / 9)

        "Deranged Moonbats"? Is this the best offered from the man you chose to replace Robert Scheer? Was it worth replacing a columnist who had given thirteen years to the Times?

        In his second sentence this columnist uses a pejorative to put down the majority of citizens of this country. These citizens have stopped believing the lies and assorted mis-truths brought to us by the Bush Administration. We know the Administration was hell-bent for war. They believed anyone who told them what they wanted to hear. Then they made the case for war while cherry picking evidence. This is now accepted fact when one remembers the Downing Street Minutes and the faulty sources, such as Ahmed Chalabi, used by the Administration.

        This leads to my next questions: Why is Mr. Goldberg so behind the times? And for that matter, why is the Times behind Mr. Goldberg?

  •  Stop Me (4.00 / 13)

    I thought the first two words were good!

    I am confused. No, wait! Maybe I'm not!

    by Tuba Les on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:33:41 PM PST

    •  Son of Sam? (none / 0)

      Wasn't it Son of Sam (David Berkowitz) who wrote letters saying "Stop me before I kill again?"

      Subconsciously, maybe that's what Goldberg was trying to say.

      The first words of his first column: a desperate plea for help.

    •  hah! (none / 0)

      After that, it's just an atrocious piece of writing, and that's before you get to issues of facts and basic logic.

      I wonder what it looked like before the copy desk got to it and made it somewhat readable?

      If you listen to Bush's critics, serious and moonbat alike, the answer is obvious

      "Serious and moonbat alike"?

      [thud]

      I hope Jonah is paying them to run this trash.  It's depressing, actually.  I am sure there are plenty of talented conservative writers who could use that space to actually produce thought-provoking, well-written commentary.

  •  Recommended (none / 0)

    The L.A. Times cleaned house of its most prominent Liberal voices and gave us this?

    I won't tell anyone that Reagan was a turd.

    by bink on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:34:12 PM PST

    •  Moonbats? (4.00 / 7)

      Why not just print the comments from a Little Green Footballs posting?

      This is like seeing un-edited Atrios on the opinion page of the New York Times.  I like Dr. Black and all, but ...  I'd like to think that he'd make a little extra effort if he were writing for a major newspaper.

      Why didn't Goldberg do the same?

      I won't tell anyone that Reagan was a turd.

      by bink on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:35:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Very good point Hunter. (4.00 / 3)

    My intuition tells me that the LAT should be hesitant to intentionally dumb-down the level of editorial discourse considering the change in public opinion over attack-dog reporting vis-a-vis Fox News.
  •  I think they must have joined (none / 0)

    the phoney OSMtm movement.
  •  Dear Los Angeles Times, (4.00 / 16)

    I write to protest the insulting column you published recently in which Jonah Goldberg claimed that "deranged moonbats" are contradicting our great President of the United States of America.  The Moonbats have always supported the President strongly.  We understand what a great and godly man he is and what wonderful things he is doing for the country.  I personally take great offense at the accusation that I would say anything against our wonderful President.  I expect an apology will be forthcoming.

    Yours truly,

    Derange D. Moonbat

    How can we get over it when people died for the right to vote? -- John Lewis

    by furryjester on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:35:49 PM PST

  •  We are IN Iraq (4.00 / 7)

    bceause true democracy in the US is not allowed to work. It hasn't been allowed to work for some time.

    We can't have an honest national debate without the right crushing dissent, smearing individual dissidents, scaring the media, scaring the electorate, and using its phony yet persistent patriotism "free-pass."

    And so, we wind up acting hysterically, throwing billions at our defense budget and then making sure we get our money's worth with war.

    And because we can't show Americans the true consequences of war - the American dead bodies, the Iraqi dead bodies, the misery, the anguish - we remain there.

    People like Jonah Goldberg have so much blood on their hands it's incredible. I wonder if that feverish little shit realizes what every word of his means, what every word of his justifies.

    The right is killing America

    by grushka on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:35:53 PM PST

  •  Excellent, withering, mature commentary (4.00 / 4)

    When I say I couldn't have said it better myself, I mean just that, and quite literally.

    -4.25, -7.28 Never in my name, ever again

    by gmoney on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:36:48 PM PST

  •  Maybe one day (none / 0)

    ....this "liberal media" will give op eds to fascists.  I mean it is another point of view.  

    You're right Hunter, it's disgraceful and these arrogant liars shouldn't get equal time or at least don't give people like Hannity, Limbaugh and Goldberg a microphone and a pen, let alone a show on armed forces radio.

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

    by cpa1 on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:38:18 PM PST

  •  LA Times figured (none / 0)

    if nepotism is good enough for the Presidency, then why not their editorial page? Jonah diesn't deserve a paycheck for the drivel he writes. Hire on merit? Yeah right.

    "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

    by Skid on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:38:47 PM PST

  •  Judy Miller envy (none / 1)

    First the NYT, then Woodward at the Post, now the LA Times. Have bean counters decided credibility is bad for the bottom line?
  •  >> deranged moonbats (none / 0)

    Because "pot-smoking hippies" and "drink-soaked popinjays" are such old fashioned terms and California is still home to former Governor Moonbeam?

    I say: give the man some long rope but also follow his money trail.

    Personally, I'd LOVE to read both the factual story AND Jonah Goldberg's feelings and opinions about Bush and the runup to war, leaving out "honest, decent, sincere people and deranged moonbats."

    Unless, of course, there are scientific surveys of the beliefs of  "honest, decent, sincere people and deranged moonbats."

    But I don't like Goldberg hiding behind them.

    Media Reform Action Link http://stopbigmedia.com/

    by LNK on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:39:30 PM PST

  •  Yes! (none / 0)

    I'm tired of people praising the Limbaughs and Coulters of the world and then getting defensive when I put out their level of assclownish stupidity.

    I'm done being polite and tolerant of crazy shit. As I wrote to one such complainer in the comments of my blog recently, "to tolerate truly uncivilized notions is not the mark of civilization, but its antithesis."

    •  Great Coulter's Balls! (none / 0)

      We must never fling off their hurled factless slime with any kind of force, but endure their unremitting attacks quietly. Otherwise, the extremist radical right might feel victimized by one of the targets they're ganging up on doing the unthinkable and punching back.

      And they'd have to pause their mission to be normalized by exploiting the current Bush-friendly media's RWrhetoric = LWfact equation for fair and balanced forum.
      .

  •  Hunter, (none / 0)

    Once again you skewer the hacks on the right as well as anyone could...

    I try to channel you anytime I get into an argument with a wingnut.

  •  Heh, Jonah, the Bottom Feeder n/t (none / 0)

    Shameful indeed...

    What an excellent day for an Exorcism... SCI/Kenyon

    by DianeL on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:41:52 PM PST

  •  Same old, same old (4.00 / 4)

    In reality, the Los Angeles Times has always had a partisan hit-man mentality to it when it comes to defending the misdeeds of Republican administrations. See, for example, their demolition of the late Gary Webb when he reported that the CIA protected Contra drug runners who fed the crack cocaine explosion in Los Angeles. Stung by being scooped on their own territory, and irate that Gary was attacking the administration of a beloved Republican, they attacked Gary with all the ferocity of a hoard of swift boat flying monkeys hooting and howling and flinging feces with ferocious abandon, and combined with CIA asset Walter Pincus of the Washington Post, managed to drive Gary out of journalism and, eventually, to his death. Then when they succeeded in kiling Gary, they then spread scurrilous lies about his life in the hit piece obituary that they wrote, claiming his series had been "discredited" (it wasn't -- not a single fact has ever been disproved) and that he was fired from his job as a legislative investigator for being a lazy layabout (not true).

    All that has changed is now they appear to be ready to lower their standards for hit pieces. Literacy, coherence, and intelligence are no longer required. In that respect, they're lowering their standards... but content-wise, they've always been quite ready and willing to publish any hit piece that bolstered whatever positions they support.

    - Badtux the News Penguin

    [Extremists] are motivated by the sneaking suspicion that someone, somewhere, is having fun -- and that this must be stopped. -- H. L. Mencken

    by badtux on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:43:30 PM PST

  •  I can't believe I (none / 0)

    canceled my subscription a couple of weeks ago. If I had waited I could have told them I was canceling now because they hired the spawn of the beast.

    I'll have to go check n on the site that makes freeperville seem like a bastian of sannity.

    Here's the link for those that haven't eaten yet.

    Reply 3 - Posted by: FlyRight, 11/17/2005 6:15:58 AM

    "the painful irony for Bush's critics is that he will go down in history as a great president" - THAT is what this is all about in a nutshell. If, if, if....this is why the dems are borderline hysterical. They know what the historical stakes are and it makes them crazy - not to mention treason.

    Reply 11 - Posted by: just looking, 11/17/2005 8:28:30 AM

    The painful truth is that the democrats are not afraid of our failure but rather our success and will do ANYTHING to undermine it. That is the major difference between then & now. I am so sick of these idiots like kennedy, reid, kerry, pelosi, ETC. I can not understand why the "great unwashed can't see through the B.S. It is sad that the dumming down is as complete as it seems to be.

    Great piece Jonah!

    Reply 12 - Posted by: Harmony1, 11/17/2005 9:52:41 AM

    Thank you, Jonah! I appreciate your words more and more each time I read your articles.

    The Democrats know a thing or two about LYING. It's their Favorite Pastime and is the Bottom Line on their Resumes.

    Reply 13 - Posted by: jglas, 11/17/2005 10:06:24 AM

    Excellent insight, and likely the hidden thorn that inflames the liberal's intense hatred of W.

    Reply 14 - Posted by: The Phantom, 11/17/2005 10:16:03 AM

    I would add that Fdr, and his secretary of State, Cordell Hull fully knew what was happening to the Jews in Germany yet did not speak out.

    Also, dear old Winston Churchill was also fully aware of what was happening to the Jews in Germany, he did not speak out either.

  •  Wow! Definition of Moonbats! (none / 0)

    Definitions of moonbat on the Web:

    Moonbat is a political epithet coined in 2002 by Perry de Havilland of "The Libertarian Samizdata," a libertarian weblog. It was originally a play on the last name of George Monbiot, a columnist for The Guardian, but now the term enjoys great currency in the libertarian blogosphere as an all-purpose insult for modern liberals, peace protestors, and other ideological opponents. It is similar to the epithets Feminazi or Idiotarian.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbat

    Media Reform Action Link http://stopbigmedia.com/

    by LNK on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:44:15 PM PST

    •  check out 'wingnut' on Wiki (none / 0)

      my emphasis...

      From Wikipedia

      Wingnut is a political epithet for a person who holds right-wing political beliefs, especially in the context of Internet forums, blogs, electronic mailing lists, or newsgroups. The term is a truncation of "right-wing nut", and is frequently seen on such blogs as Daily Kos.

      in a crisis, we must have a sense of drama

      -- MLK

      by missreporter on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:45:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Funny. (none / 0)

      I just got through checking the definition myself.  Because if it's making it into more mainstream usage than rightleaning blogs, I should at least understand why I'm being called the fairly nonsensical term.

      So let me get this straight, we're being razzed with...um...a derivation of a particular journalist's name?  With a slight reference that we're lunatics, by the 'moon' part?

      Wouldn't our obvious reply be to call them all Assrockets? :)  That is, if we wanted to stand in the same playground as them...

      The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. - Sen. Edward M. Kennedy

      by Stymnus on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 07:19:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  thats because its the "LA Dog Trainer" (none / 0)

    new and improved for you ....

    off thread but heres a link to my favorite satirist: Le Show which should be a must listen for all kossers...

    "Sometimes it's like his record skips or like some coke-dusted and liquor-glazed synapse is unable to fire and he's just stuck" RudePundit

    by christhughes on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:45:00 PM PST

  •  He's baaaack -- Scheer's up and running again (4.00 / 6)

    Also posted in the dKos diary "Those All Important Editors":

    On Leaving the LA Times by Robert Scheer
    .
    On Friday I was fired as a columnist by the publisher of the Los Angeles Times, where I have worked for thirty years. The publisher, Jeff Johnson, who has offered not a word of explanation to me, has privately told people that he hated every word that I wrote. I assume that mostly refers to my exposing the lies used by President Bush to justify the invasion of Iraq
    .
    Fortunately sixty percent of Americans now get the point, but only after tens of thousand of Americans and Iraqis have been killed and maimed as the carnage spirals out of control. My only regret is that my pen was not sharper and my words tougher. Starting Wednesday morning, my column will be appearing here on the Huffington Post. (11/11/05 HuffiPo / Scheer)

    And here's Scheer doing what he does best: speaking truth to power while docile media sources continue to cower to it and abandon their duty to craft and the public trust:

    At a time when approximately 57 percent of Americans polled believe that President Bush deceived them on the reasons for the war in Iraq, it does seem a bit redundant to deconstruct the president's recent speeches on that subject. Yet, to fail to do so would be to passively accept the Big Lie technique -- which is how we as a nation got into this horrible mess in the first place
    .
    The basic claim of the president's desperate and strident attack on the war's critics this past week is that he was acting as a consensus president when intelligence information left him no choice but to invade Iraq as a preventive action to deter a terrorist attack on America. This is flatly wrong. (More where that came from ...) (11/16/05 HuffiPo / Scheer)

    •  Lies about the future vs. the past and present (none / 0)

      The sacking of Robert Scheer made the LA Times policy obvious.  Had not Scheer revealed that the publisher, Jeff Johnson "told people privately that he hated every work I wrote" I  would have guessed such drivel is driven by advertisers.

      Is there really still an audience unable to distinguish between broken promises (false statements about the future) and blatant lies (false statements about the past or present)?  While of course one would like to have leaders able to predict the future, we all know that is not possible. Such "lies" are in the area of judgement.  Any leader continuing to lie about the past or present SHOULD be impeached. Period. That speaks to an entirely different issue, that of integrity and character. Shame on you Jeff Johnson, to support such dumbing down of America!!

      •  Please some one tell me this is not true: (none / 0)

        We, LA Times readers gave up Robert Scheer for the likes of a Jonah Goldberg? Who is really
        is truly the George W. Bush of punditry -- installed in his chosen field through the graces of his mother, noted right-wing voice Lucianne Goldberg, from whom Jonah inherited much of his rather inexplicable world viewpoints, but none of her omnipresent, easy vitriol or difficult-to-parody panache.
        No! It cannot be the son-of-the-bitch Lucianne!

        Please tell me this is just Hunter's hyperbolic hyping? Please!!!

        I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks in Sozadee CA.

        by The Messenger on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 07:39:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  another instance (4.00 / 3)

    of freeperlanguage going mainstream.

    Just a few days ago, Rumsfeld used the term "Islamofascists". I was shocked, since I never saw the term outside of Little Green Footballs.

  •  Wingnuts (none / 0)

    It's time, then, for the LA Times to post an Op Ed about Wingnuts, 'our' loving term for 'them'.
  •  My only critique of your (4.00 / 6)

    post, Hunter:

    Every single mention of Jonah Goldberg and every single analysis of his writing, work, politics, and etc should display, in prominet, bold letters, perhaps as a sidebar with links, his disgusting, shameful, racist, vomitous garbage-filled writing before during and after the impact of Katrina on the Gulf Coast and the subsequent drowning of more than 1000 residents of New Orleans.

    That a slimy, dishonest, vile little piece of shit of the likes of Jonah Goldberg is getting paid to write opinion pieces for the LATimes after writing such inhuman, vile crap is disgusting.

    There are literally thousands of better, more intelligent, more honest, and more relevant writers of opinion and political essays on this site alone.

    Remember, Jonah Goldberg is a publicly declared, blatant, unapologetic racist of the first order, who literally laughed at the drowing of helpless people and made racist remarks about those people drowning.

    Nuff said.

    The only way to ensure a free press is to own one

    by RedDan on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:46:32 PM PST

    •  Jonah... (none / 0)

      Like all the other gutless neo con fucks, Jonah can dish it out, but he can't take it. After reading his "they should grow gills" comment about the Katrina victims, I e-mailed the little piece of shit some very offensive jokes (like "What is the difference between a pizza and a Jew?). He e-mailed me several times, calling me an anti semite, saying that the holocaust wasn't anything to make jokes about, bla bla bla, waa waa waa. I guess Jonah figures that is OK to make offensive racial jokes, as long as they are about others. The LA Times just laid off a bunch of editorial staff yesterday, citing the "increasing cost of newsprint, and shrinking subscription base." I sent them an e-mail today that said they should expect their subscriptions to shrink further with the hiring of racist dumbfuck assholes like Jonah Goldberg.

      "Huge brains, small necks, weak muscles and fat wallets. These are the dominant physical characteristics of The Generation Of Swine".

      by runtothehills on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:13:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed, somewhat (none / 0)

      Highlighting scum like Malkin just increases her slimy profile.

      But Pantload has somehow wormed his way onto the LA Times editorial page. That's big time exposure, and it needs to get countered or stopped.

      BTW, the LAT seems to have bought Goldberg stock on the a sharp downswing. Did his mommy blackmail somebody?

  •  Reads like a high school newspaper editorial... (none / 0)

    with no faculty advisor.

    LAT must be proud.

    •  That's what I was thinking (none / 0)

      I can just see him running back to his freeper friends and saying

      "did you see that?  I called them deranged moonbats tee hee hee.  Aren't I so clever? tee hee hee."

      How old did this guy say he was?

      The Republicans have a fundamental problem with telling the truth - Howard Dean.

      by NYC Sophia on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:59:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Right on Hunter (none / 0)

    I'd just add a bit about Robert Sheer... He was on Democracy Now the other day. Also his new columns will be over at the Huffington Post.
  •  Boycott (4.00 / 2)

    Look, it's all about the money.  How many page reads did this diary give to the LAT today?  How will the LAT sell that new influx of hits to their advertisers?

    Just stop reading the LAT, cold turkey.  They are obviously NOT suitable material to read any longer.    As someone else noted about the money trail, I'd think any paper suspect that carried a TownHall member or a member of the Heritage Foundation; we've not accounted for all the payola this administration has forked over as yet, after all, and every known propagandist has been a TownHall crier.

    What's so damned hard about launching a boycott, anyhow?  We don't seem to be able to organize ourselves to hit these bastards where it hurts them the most: right where their wallet sits.

  •  Jonah attacked a Kos Diarist today (none / 0)

    How ironic that you picked today to publish your scathing take-down of this most mediocre by-product of nepotism.

    Goldberg published a bitter, incoherent attack in the Corner on one of the recommended dKos diaries today which really reveals just how untalented he is. The diary was substantive, complex and smart, and Goldberg's reply to it was childish and lazy.  It's amazing that the LA Times can't do any better than this.

  •  Goldberg demonstrates that, to be a conservative (none / 1)

    today, you must be a stupid person.  

    Not just casually stupid.  

    Actively stupid.  You must ensure that you do not use your brain.

    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

    by dataguy on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:49:33 PM PST

  •  Trite. (none / 0)

    See banal. See Jonah Goldberg. See what the op-ed page of the Los Angeles Times aspires to.

    Trite. Mission accomplished.

    In the US Senate failure is not an option - it's a mandatory feature.

    by mentaldebris on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:50:53 PM PST

  •  As usual (none / 1)

    Bushies can't defend Bush's policies - so they either attack the messengers or make ludicrous analogies as in this piece re FDR.
    Yes - the LAT has shamed themselves - and they'll hear from me!

    Dems will not hold impeachment hearings while Bill is campaigning with Hillary.

    by annefrank on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 01:54:07 PM PST

  •  Hunter, (none / 0)

    you are a good writer.
  •  i am not surprised (none / 0)

    in the least.  they hired a conservative editor.  he in turn hires people like Jonah.  they have been moving to the right for a while now.
    •  My question along the same lines.... (none / 0)

      Is the L.A. Times moving right due to the expansion of Orange County? Orange County, for the most part, has become so Republican, so narrow minded, so non-critical thinking, that it seems the LAT is simply moving right to expand  and accomodate the Republican readers.

      I moved back to San Diego from Northern California this year, but I confess I don't get the Orange County mentality even a little. San Diego has a conservative history due to the military history of the city. Not so Orange County.

      "Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen." Mort Sahl

      by maggiemae on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:50:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  DC Dick and Baghdad Bob (4.00 / 5)

    Dick Cheney's outrageous attacks and staggering deceptions regarding the administration's critics on Iraq brings to mind Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Saddam's former Iraqi Minister of Information, also known as "Baghdad Bob."

    For more on the eery similarities, see:

    "DC Dick and Baghdad Bob"

  •  Hunter.... (none / 0)

    If i were to ever indulge in the reading of newspapers, i would most likely have to disagree with you.

    Sinserellly,

    George W. Bush

  •  HMMMM (none / 0)

    Well considering Bush is down to a 34% approval rating (per the latest Harris Poll), and a majority of Americans feel like Bush did lie and the war is not going well, then it sounds like he might be editorializing to a small crowd in the future.

    Jamie
    http://intoxination.blogspot.com

    •  The ranting and raging is just begining. (none / 0)

      As Bush's chickens come home to roost, after more than four years of breathtakingly poor judgment and putting ideology ahead of sound civics, the roof was bound to collapse on these people.

      You can have an ideology that says water runs up hill (or evolution never occured) but you can't build a dam on the theory that water rushes up hill. The dam (or levee) will burst. And when it does, you can't talk the water into running up hill.

      So be prepared for the Republican punditry to descend into a morass of shilling and ranting and raging and screaming as they watch their ideological dreams wash down hill.

      Calling Dems moonbats while evidence of lies are obvious will not make the water run up hill.

      Water simply does not run up hill. Even if you shout at it and call it a moonbat.
       

  •  Moonbats over Los Angeles (none / 0)

    Goldberg's writing is infantile. He has no greater insight than an eigth grade young republican.  Who would pay to read his tripe?

    An Illinois honors student wrote a paper on the number of reasons the Administration gave for invading Iraq. The number was 23.

    Depending upon how you look at it, that's at least 22 lies.

    If they had told the truth they wouldn't still be debating it, and they wouldn't be cooking up multiple reasons for the invasion.

    Did they really believe that they could incurr blood letting for an unlimited period of time without rancor.

    If Bush knew what he was doing, he wouldn't be doing what he's doing.

  •  Tree Huggers. (none / 1)

    Soccer Moms. Loony Left. Etc. The fact is, the neocons can't talk about anyone who disagrees with them, without labeling and insulting them. Nothing new. Nothing worth giving a shit about. My right-wing brother called Michael Moore a left-winger. I pointed out that he was an ardent critic of Clinton. He then said, "alright, then he's a malcontent". He was happy only after figuring out how to label, and thereby dismiss him. It's what Rush does for a living. I think we can keep the discourse on a higher level. Let them maintain their nasty rhetoric on there own.

    Conservative Christian is an Oxymoron.

    by kitebro on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:01:29 PM PST

  •  Liar (none / 0)


    Even the most cursory reading of any presidential biography will tell you that statesmanship requires occasional duplicity. If great foreign policy could be conducted Boy Scout-style -- "I will never tell a lie" -- foreign policy would be easy (and Jimmy Carter would be hailed as the American Bismarck). This isn't to say that the public's trust should be breached lightly, but there are other competing goods involved in any complex situation.

    Now, you might say that Iraq was no WWII, Saddam was no Hitler, and 9/11 was no Pearl Harbor. Those are all fair arguments with varying degrees of merit. But WWII wasn't "the good war" in our hearts until after Pearl Harbor and even until after the Holocaust, and a lot of Hollywood burnishing.

    The Bush Doctrine is not chiefly about WMD and never was. Like FDR's vision, it balances democracy, security and morality. Still, the media and anti-Bush partisans have been bizarrely unmoved by the revelations of Hussein's killing fields, his torture chambers for tots and democracy's tangible progress in the Middle East.

    If Bush succeeds -- still a big if -- the painful irony for Bush's critics is that he will go down in history as a great president, even if he lied, while they will take their paranoia to their graves.

    The Bush doctrine is not about WMD??  And never was!!???
    Help!  I am hallucinating!  Somebody dosed me.

    No, seriously, I am writing to the Times post haste.  This insults any reader's intelligence.

  •  And newspapers wonder why their sub numbers (none / 0)

    ... are falling off the table.

    If I want to see crap like this everyday, I'll quit my job, stay home, drink soda pop and eat chip all day, and watch Jerry Spinger.

  •  "Deranged moonbats" (none / 0)

    Hm.

    I would expect even better from John Hinderaker. In fact, such misguided, fast and loose vitriol would be more appropriate in the comments section of Little Green Footballs.

    I'm amazed that that statement even got past Goldberg's copy editor.

    Then again, this level of hysteria of late has become the norm from the Right. It's going to be fascinating and funny to see the heads explode when this adminitsration finally goes down for the count.

    JP
    http://jurassicpork.blogspot.com

    Defending bad taste and liberalism since 2005.

    by jurassicpork on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:03:27 PM PST

  •  amen! action! (none / 0)

    Hunter,
    this was one hell of a well-written post.

    I want to see follow-up action on this. LATimes is in Los Angeles, not Omaha. Their editor is new. The ammunition Mr. Goldberg gives against  himself is overwhelming. DailyKos should be leading a charge to force this guy out.

    We shouldn't try to argue that anyone is doing anything illegal - we should just use market power. We hate the guy, we're going to boycott the paper, kick him out or lose our business. Open and shut.

    A petition in the LA market would probably take off with a bang.

    Hunter, if you started this, DKos would probably follow you on it with alacrity.

  •  P.S. (none / 1)

    I just submitted my comment.  Something about how the LA Times editors must be deranged moonbats to hire this hack...

    "Milton Friedman's misfortune is that his policies have been tried."

    by el fuego on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:05:45 PM PST

  •  Tribune Company (none / 0)

    The Chicago Tribune has the biggest collection of right-wing nut cases writing on their op-ed pages -- and, of course, the L.A. Times is owned by the Tribune Company.

    The Tribune Company is just a dressed up version of Sinclair Broadcast Group.  Further, the Tribune Company simply can't publish in competitive markets.  They bought the Times thinking it might be like the Chicago market where their only competition is from a Conrad Black owned tabloid.  But Los Angeles is a different newspaper market -- I know, I worked in it for eight years.  Once The Register got its act together in the late 70's and early 80's, and the Daily News later (after being sold by the Tribune Company), the LA Times found itself suddenly in a competitive situation.  This led to internal divisions and an eventual sale.

    Now, the Tribune Company, like Knight-Ridder, wants to slash and burn itself into greater profitability.  Cut the liberal voices, add the pro-business voices.  That has been their formula ever since the company was founded.

  •  Painful irony indeed... (4.00 / 2)

    The cherry on top of this shit sundae...

    If Bush succeeds (still a big if ) the painful irony for Bush's critics is that he will go down in history as a great president, even if he lied, while they will take their paranoia to their graves.

    And if Bush fails (nowhere near as big an if) the painful irony for Bush's apologists is the he will go down in  history as the worst president ever, he lied and sent thousands of American troops to their graves...

    Sadly, my money's on the second scenario...

    "24" is to torture what "The Archies" were to Rock n Roll...

    by ThatSinger on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:06:16 PM PST

    •  This is exactly what I was posting when (none / 1)

      I was interrupted, and lost my post as I needed to show someone a different page, but forgot to open another browser.

      There's nothing good about beating bush here, as the human cost is too great...and Iraq didn't need fixing.  Saddam was mostly toothless when we invaded.

      But regardless of what happens in Iraq, his legacy will be one of pain, death, and dishonor.

      Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

      by darthstar on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:15:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Amy Alexander should read this diary entry (none / 0)

    and compare it to the Goldberg piece.

    Maybe then she'll see exactly how necessary editors are.



    Speaking of high standards of editorship and writing:
    [T]he State of the Union address was a figment of our imaginations so powerful that it imprinted itself onto the videotapes of the world through our collective, "deranged" wills.
    That is some classic prose right there, Hunter. Many people could have made the same point, but not many could have made it so subtly or effectively.

    ----------------
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are always cocksure and the intelligent are always filled with doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

    by gpm on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:08:13 PM PST

  •  LA Times (none / 0)

    Well said, Hunter.
  •  Excellent journal (none / 0)

    I've been noticing the steady deterioration of debate in editorial pages - or maybe it's just old age turning me sour.  

    You see it in NYTimes, as well.  I was shocked to read an OpEd by Jessica Seigel on French v. American culture that included the line,

    So s'il vous plait shut up

    And I remember thinking, "This is the level of discourse at the New York Times???"  Whatever point she may have been making flew out the window.

    Thanks for this journal - it's a much-needed assessment.

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:10:39 PM PST

  •  Is dis a country? (none / 0)

    Please, oh God, bring back Scheer.

    While you're at it:

    send Bush/Cheney into immediate retirement

    make the war creeps Withdraw right now from Iraq

    Make the idle rich give back their tax cuts

    Turn the oil companies into NGO's who do good by helping poor and needy people.

    For Thanksgiving, and surely by Christmas, help the Dems find their spines.

    Dr Wu, the last of the big time thinkers

    by Dr Wu on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:11:58 PM PST

  •  Solutions that might work (none / 1)

    Complaining to the LA Times about the offensiveness of Goldberg's drivel is probably not going to go anywhere--they'll just give the standard "diverse voices, free speech, need to show different viewpoints blah blah blah" response--which of course has merit as a philosophy, although it is darn hard to stomach when the differing POV is so repugnant and offers little in the way of informative discourse.  

    Instead, opponents of Goldberg need to take a different approach:

    One, contact advertisers with a collection of concerns about the offensiveness of Goldberg's work--someone referred to some particularly crass statements he made after Hurricane Katrina; compile a list of them and take the matter to the Times' advertisers.  

    Two, compile evidence of intellectual dishonesty, "infotainment" tendencies, and factual errors in his columns, and use that as a basis for complaining to the LA Times.  They can defend reprehensible POVs in the name of discourse and diversity, but there is no excuse for printing lies and shoddy work.

    Three, bear in mind that a very tiny percentage of Americans read newspapers at all, and an even lower percentage read editorials--most stick to comics, sports, and lifestyles!

    Four, keep reminding yourselves that the people who would be influenced by garbage like Goldberg's are beyond salvaging anyway--they're the same close-minded dittoheads who think Rush Limbaugh provides news and information.  And anyone on the fence who has a modicum of brains and empathy will probably be alienated by his rants, so that's probably a point in favor of giving a public forum to people like him!

    •  Excellent points (none / 0)

      Contacting their advertisers will make the most difference in my opinion.

      "I just had the basic view of the American public -- it can't be that bad out there." Marine Travis Williams after 11 members of his squad were killed.

      by Steven D on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:15:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Expect more of this crap (none / 0)

    Every rationale for the Iraq war has been debunked and Americans are wising up to the fact that they were sold a bill of goods.

    So what does the Right do? You guessed it: go on the offensive and accuse war critics of everything they're guilty of. It's going to get a lot worse in the months to come.

    "You can never guarantee victory, but you can guarantee defeat."--Hall of Fame baseball writer Leonard Koppett.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:13:27 PM PST

  •  Can we say it again. (none / 0)

    Jonah Goldberg is a fascist.

    No, I'm not calling him a Nazi.  I'm calling him a fascist.  They are not the same.  All Nazis are fascists, but not all fascists are Nazis.  Each manifestation of the phenomenon is differebt because each country in which ot arises is different.  Here, the belittled groups are "gays" and "illegal immigrants" (particularly of the Hispanic variety) and the all purpose "Librul."

    And these are fascist political arguments.  The "great man" who knows better than we do what's good for us and lies (if he does lie -- fascists never admit they are lying) only for our benefit.  Anyone who opposes the great man is either "deranged" or a traitor.  We're lucky to have such a "strong" leader.

    Blah, blah, blah.

    Admittedly a whiny fascist but a fascist nonetheless.

    "I just had the basic view of the American public -- it can't be that bad out there." Marine Travis Williams after 11 members of his squad were killed.

    by Steven D on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:14:00 PM PST

    •  Be creative (4.00 / 3)

      The rightwingers in question could, for example, be

      'prevaricating reichbats'.

    •  So The Shrub is another FDR? (none / 0)

      Funny how quick the rabid wingnuts like Golberg are to hide behind the coattails of those "libruls" FDR and JFK when the going gets tough.
      Golberg's debut showed up in the Tallahassee paper today.  I agree that there are certain similarities between our War President and one of the leaders in WWII but it ain't FDR.  Give up?  Consider this coincidence: it was the leader who said he had to attack because of the threat Poland posed to its neighbors.  There was even a cross-border incursion by Polish raiders.  Later the raid and the rest of the intelligence on the Polish Threat were shown to be bogus but by then the WWII was well under way.
  •  fisk the column (none / 0)

    Fisk, of course, is a prominent antiwar columnist who was critical of our war plans. 'fisking' as a phrase appears to have been invented by one of the right wing writers at http://bar.baen.com , the Politics column, which by the way is open to other SF fans.

    I occasionally post there.

    •  I'll have to look for you there (none / 0)

      I stick mostly to posting fiction in the various Slush forums...the politics forum seems dominated by a wingnut tinfoil hat brigade.

      Bail out Studebaker.

      by AustinCynic on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 07:36:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I rarely post (none / 0)

        on one of the slush piles.  But I believe that if we could round up a reasonable number of reasonable people, the politics group there could be rescued from the wingnut corps.  Many of them are unaccustomed to disagreement and take poorly to it, but unlike certain other places civil discourse is not censured.
  •  Well considered and well said, Sir (none / 0)

    I was one of thousands who wrote them to criticize their dumping of Robert Scheer, but I never was and never will be a regular reader of the LA Times anyway.  I hope they get deservedly hammered in their home market for enabling the  kind of mindless crap that Goldberg wrote.
  •  Fantastic essay Hunter (none / 0)

    Simply fantastic!

    The Book of Revelation is not a foreign policy manual.

    by Dont Just Stand There on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:23:08 PM PST

  •  Orwell hearts Jonah. (none / 0)

    Jonah has learned to love Big Brother.

    Dog for Sasha and Malia? Check. Equal rights for all Americans? Eh, whenever we get around to it.

    by osterizer on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:23:38 PM PST

  •  American Journalists (none / 0)

    Did American Media follow the American Military in its recruitment policies?

    We are unable to comment due to an ongoing investigation...

    My password is: "transparency" This is a communal account. Everyone may play, few will win!

    by nanobubble on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:23:54 PM PST

  •  This part here caught my eye (none / 1)

    A bit about plans...

    Just three days before Pearl Harbor, on Dec. 4, 1941, the Chicago Tribune and Washington Star-Ledger broke the story that FDR had already drafted a plan for war with Germany, a plan that entailed a 10-million-man army invading Germany by the middle of 1943. Democrats and Republicans alike saw this as further proof that FDR had been lying all along.

    Drawing up a plan is, um, prudent if you may have to enact it.  The problem comes when you decide to act, but have no plan.  See Bush, George W.

  •  I hope that all of us Kossaks that are (none / 0)

    LA Times subscribers CANCEL! Call them and let them know that you are cancelling and why!
  •  It wasn't the moonbat comment that got me (none / 1)

    It was his complete idiocy in comparing Bush/Cheney/Rice/Powell's lies with FDR's supposed lies in order to get us into WWII.

    Huh?

    Well, OK, first I choked on my musli (being a good Californian, I gave up granola years ago--too much sugar and fat, don't you know) over the moonbat lable. Then I let go, chocking it up to reading a winger with a potentially amusing essay device--"moonbat' is rather creative--until I got into the, uh, "meat" of the essay. I guess "essay" should be in quotes as well.

    He rolled out a couple of historians and alluded to their claims that FDR lied through his teeth and we moonbats think that's great. Now with Bush & gang doing the same on Suddam we are suddenly shouting from the rooftops. See how that works? FDR was a democrat, so lying was OK, but Bush and the rest of the lying sacks of shit are Repubs, so we are all over their lies that really did just as much good as FDR did in setting us up to counter Hitler and Japan. Thus, we are proven to be two-faced political opportunists of the worst order, and Bush&Co are at the same level of enlightened thinking and leadership as FDR.

    Wow! Fucking brilliant (sorry, forgot the new rule).

    For this we lost Sheer?

    In other breaking news, the Dodgers hired a new GM. Front page. Bah!

    Scary Liberal Internet Activist (who just happens to look like a normal guy)

    by marksb on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:33:02 PM PST

  •  Canceled our subscription this morning (none / 1)

    First that insufferable jackass Joel Stein calling us stupid for voting, now this insufferable jackass calling us moonbats.  Fuck you and the printing press you rolled in on, Times.

    If you cancel and you're already paid up for the year, be sure to ask for a refund.  They can't refuse you.  Not one penny for these bastards!

  •  Letter to the Editor (none / 0)

    Hunter, I hope you've already mailed a copy of that off to the LA Times.

    Can you give us the old line, you know the one, "Mistakes were made?" -Cruiserweight

    by mewhins24 on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:34:24 PM PST

  •  Here's my little communique (none / 1)

    to the emperors of the Times's editorial page.  I'm quite sure that my missive will swing a hell of a lot of weight.  /snark

    ****

    THIS is what you replace the calm, logical, often elegant and always insightful Robert Scheer with?  A column by this nobody Jonah Goldberg who can't get out of the first paragraph without calling those who disagree with him names?  And we go from there into outright lies -- lies to cover the lies of the administration, lies without basis, lies that can be disproven in a matter of seconds, bald-faced lies.

    This is what you give us in place of Robert Scheer?  How low are you prepared to sink in pandering to the right-wing ownership of this paper?

    Too far for me.  Until today, I have been a daily visitor to your site, particularly your op-ed pages.  No more.  I can find better political commentary somewhere else than the once-proud, once-independent Times.

    Goodbye, Times.  Hello, Pravda.

  •  My Brief Letter To LAT (none / 0)

    A follow-up to my pro-Scheer protest letter of last week:

    I can't believe that you replaced Robert Scheer with Jonah Goldberg,  
    whose level of discourse -- particularly in his debut column for the  
    Times -- often resembles that of a homeless person ranting on a  
    street corner. Crazy Jonah's column that compares George W. Bush's plan to invade Iraq with FDR's war plans in World War II is the kind of asinine, make-it-up-as-you-go-along drivel that reads like the paranoid screech youd expect to hear from behind the padded walls of a psych ward. This is a sad day for the Los Angeles Times.

  •  deranged moonbats (none / 0)

    LOL...I have to admit I like the sound of that

    unfortunately, deranged moonbats believe ALL KINDS of things......some even think W is a great preznit

    but...remember..deranged moonbats are actually helpful creatures -- they eat insects

    PLEASE donate to a global children's PEACE project: Chalk 4 Peace

    by RumsfeldResign on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:43:24 PM PST

  •  Murtha was a Moonbat -and so am I! (none / 0)

    Dear Monsieur Goldberg,

    I'd rather be a moonbat than a Chickenhawk Fascist!
    Oh and by the way, I've got a whole bunch of moonbat kids and they are even battier than I!

    I will be sure to submit your picture to Wikipedia in Spanish under the word - pendejo.

    Signed
    Mr. Murcielago

    PS: Bush lied, people died -any questions?

    Livin' the Murkin Dream!

    by smartinez on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:44:10 PM PST

  •  My letter to the times (none / 0)

    This is an improvement?

    It didn't take very long for Jonah to disgrace your proud paper by stooping to the lowest levels of name-calling rhetoric.

    In the second sentence of Jonah Goldberg's first column, he seems to label a large segment of Americans as "deranged moonbats."

    Jonah goes on to make equally absurd remarks regarding FDR, WW2, and the "Bush Doctrine" going so far as to imply that this Iraq war was "not chiefly about WMD"

    I have no problems with opinion pieces from the far right or the far left, or any other dimension of measure. However, I expect these opinions to be expressed with maturity, professionalism and with respect to the facts.

    I find it mind-boggling that the management of the times would move to make changes to include this kind of juvenile writing, and I find it difficult to justify contributing to the erosion of standards in journalism.

    I'm cancelling my subscription.

  •  They got rid of Scheer for this????? (none / 0)

    Bastids.

    Idiots of the world, ignite!

    by susanp on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:46:18 PM PST

  •  NYRB commentary (none / 0)

    It has some choice praise for DKos, but unfortunately also says that we're kind of lone voices compared to the right-wing tide of ignorance:

    http://www.nybooks.com/...

    "It's only in books that the officers of the detective force are superior to the weakness of making a mistake." (Wilkie Collins, The Moonstone)

    by chingchongchinaman on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:48:23 PM PST

  •  This is why... (none / 0)

    I believe it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.  Think about it.  One of the most liberal papers in the country in one of the most liberal areas of the country has dumped a thoughtful liberal leaning op-ed writer for this pseudo-intellectual piece of crap.  The problems of politics and everything else in this country are systemic.  Bush is at 34-38% approval after BLATANLY LYING US INTO WAR.  There is no critical thinking, no deference to the facts, nothing.  I'm sorry folks, I don't think we will survive as a nation.

    To the WH: "It's your job to f*ck-up power; it's Fox's job to f*ck-up truth.' - Jon Stewart

    by RichM on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 02:48:48 PM PST

  •  Great Diary (none / 0)

    By writing on a partisan blog with more eloquence and yes, restraint than Goldberg's piece deserves, you demonstrate clearly how far the L.A. Times has fallen.  Goldberg's piece reminds me of the foetid garbage Josef Sobran used to get published in supposedly mainstream newspapers.  The L.A.Times should aspire to be mor like DailyKos and put writing of this level of quality on their pages, whether from a left or right perspective, instead of the rants of Jonah Goldberg.
  •  That piece (none / 0)

    of fuck is going to ruin the LA Times...and god knows they deserve to be ruined.

    Its always rot from within...

    A Vote For John Edwards Is A Vote For Yourself. Iowa Underground

    by ThunderHawk13 on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:02:37 PM PST

  •  Remind me never to call you a moonbat, Hunter. (none / 0)

    You have a way with words.

    -6.88/-5.64 * We won! We won!.... Now back on your heads.

    by John West on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:05:48 PM PST

  •  LATimes (none / 0)

    It seems to this old fella that the LATimes is "second wave".
    Limbaugh, Maulkin et al plowed the plot, now watch the planters and tenders grow the big lie. Last time it worked for a decade.
                 Q
  •  What do we want? More Jonah! (none / 0)

    When do we want him? Now!
    Let Goldberg spew his idiocy. He's not convincing, and most of all, he insults the large swath of the Americans (not just Kossacks) who believe Bush was deceptive. Goldberg is a liability to Bush.

    He reminds me of someones tagline here that says that to fight Santorum, his words should be publicized as much as possible.

    "The fate of all mankind, I see, is in the hands of fools." -- King Crimson, "Epitaph," 1969

    by Blindfish on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:06:19 PM PST

  •  Not strictly on topic... (none / 1)

    but Hunter, your eloquence astounds.

    You've made something beautiful out of the ugliest raw material I can think of.

    Lake George. Named after a cretin. Located in New Orleans.

    by Lumiere on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:10:06 PM PST

  •  H. L. Mencken said it many years ago (none / 0)

    and it's still true:

    "I asked the bellman to bring me a newspaper. The poor man must have been deaf, for he reappeared with a copy of the Los Angeles Times."

    Harry Shearer of Le Show calls it "the Los Angeles Dog Trainer."

    'Nuff said.

    CEO and congressman sittin' in a tree
    L-O-BB-Y-I-N-G
    First comes love, then comes money
    then the laws come out all funny.

    by Omir the Storyteller on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:10:08 PM PST

  •  What is wrong with these people? (none / 0)

    Is he hallucinating?  Because I think 'moonbats' fly in hell.

    And if he's seeing moonbats ... not a good sign.  And he's kind of a spokesman for the neocons.  So ... I don't know, maybe it's too late to repent.

    Actually, if he's seeing 'moonbats' ... um, he might be a witch.

    They tortured people to get false confessions to justify invading Iraq.

    by yet another liberal on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:10:13 PM PST

  •  From Hiram Johnson To Juan Cole (none / 0)

    From back in February, Juan Cole said all you need to know about Goldberg.
    Some Highlights:
    I think it is time to be frank about some things. Jonah Goldberg knows absolutely nothing about Iraq. I wonder if he has even ever read a single book on Iraq, much less written one. He knows no Arabic. He has never lived in an Arab country. He can't read Iraqi newspapers or those of Iraq's neighbors. He knows nothing whatsoever about Shiite Islam, the branch of the religion to which a majority of Iraqis adheres. Why should we pretend that Jonah Goldberg's opinion on the significance and nature of the elections in Iraq last Sunday matters? It does not.

    ...

    If Jonah Goldberg had asserted that he could fly to Mars in his pyjamas and come back in a single day, it would not have been a more fantastic allegation than the one he made about Iraq being a danger to the United States because of the nuclear issue. He made that allegation over and over again to millions of viewers on national television programs, to viewers who trusted his judgment because CNN and others purveyed him to them.

    Jonah Goldberg is a fearmonger, a warmonger, and a demagogue. And besides, he was just plain wrong about one of the more important foreign policy issues to face the United States in the past half-century. It is shameful that he dares show his face in public, much less continuing to pontificate about his profound knowledge of just what Iraq is like and what needs to be done about Iraq and the significance of events in Iraq.
    ...

    The reason Mr. Goldberg is alarmed that I pointed this obvious fact out is that he wants to kill thousands of Iranians and thousands of US troops in a war of aggression on Iran. If the American public knows that there is a lively struggle between hardliners and conservatives in Iran, and that an American intervention there would be a huge disaster and would forestall the natural evolution of Iran away from Khomeinism, then they might not support Mr. Goldberg's monstrous warmongering.

    That is why he attacked me.

    So let me propose to him that we debate Middle East issues, anywhere, any time, he and I.

    Otherwise he should please shut up and go back to selling Linda Tripp tapes on Ebay.

    It is shocking that the Times put this bozo on the opinion page and with the same move, dumped Robert Scheer. There are not enough profanities to express how incredibly goddamned fucked up this move was. It was as if they are channeling General Otis, the extreme right wing, anti-union publisher of the Times who was trashed in an even better smackdown decades ago. This one you can take notes on.

    Robert Gottlieb and Irene Wolt* Thinking Big: The Story of the Los Angeles Times, Its Publishers and Their Influence on Southern California, G.P. Putnam's Sons: NY, 1977. 603 pp.

         "San Francisco Special Prosecutor Hiram Johnson, a leader of the state's progresssive movement {1909} . . . duiring a mass meeting in Los Angeles's Simpson Auditorium, {in a response to a question about General Otis of the Los Angeles Times }

         "In the city from which I have come, we have drunk to the very dregs the cup of infamy; we have had vile officials; we have had rotten newspapers; we have had men who sold their birthright; we have dipped into every infamy; every form of wickedness has been ours in the past; every debased passion and every sin has flourished. But we have nothing so vile, nothing so low, nothing so debased, nothing so infamous in San Francisco, nor did we ever have, as Harrison Gray Otis . . .

         "He sits there in senile dementia, with gangrened heart and rotting brain, grimacing at every reform, chattering impotently at all things that are decent, frothing, fuming, violently gibbering, going down to his grave in snarling infamy. This man Otis is the one blot on the banner of Southern California; he is the bar sinister upon your escutcheon. My friends, he is the one thing that all California looks at, when, in looking at Southern California, they see anything that is disgraceful, depraved, corrupt, crooked and putrescent-that is Harrison Gray Otis." p. 79

    General Otis is smiling in his grave.

  •  LA Times shames itself (none / 0)

    http://amconmag.com/...
    begin quote: Jonah Goldberg of National Review: "The United  States needs to go to war with Iraq because it needs to go to  war with someone in the region and Iraq makes the most sense.""Goldberg endorsed "the Ledeen Doctrine" of ex-Pentagon official Michael Ledeen, which Goldberg described thus: "Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show we mean business." end quote

    Jonah Goldberg embarasses himself, the Tribune Syndicate, and now the editorial page of the Los Angeles Times. It is not that he is conservative. Readers welcome vigorous arguments that are honest. The problem is that Goldberg is both dishonest and ignorant-- a provocateur who does not serve the public discourse but throws bombs at it.

    And then there was this bit of stupidity:
    http://juancole.com/...

    Bringing this bomb-thrower on as a regular columnist lessens my respect for the Los Angeles Times.

  •  Respected LA Times? (none / 0)

        I think not.  I have been subscribing to and reading the Los Angeles Times for 19 years.  It has little value as news.  Why should the editorial and op-ed pages be any better?
        In my first month in California, I saw the Los Angeles Times uncover a major bribery scandal involving the San Diego chief of police.  (In those days, the Times had a separate San Diego edition.)  After everyone (in power) realized how much dynamite the story involved, the story was quickly killed.  That chief of police is now the Sheriff of San Diego County.
        Since moving to Los Angeles 13 years ago, I have watched story after story either never appear, get glossed over, or get killed.  Little has changed since the paper's purchase by the Chicago Tribune folks a few years ago.
        The Los Angeles Times is in the business of selling some advertising and covering up the misdeeds of those in power.  In Southern California, the misdeeds are legion.  Hercules could not clean out this stable.
  •  The Times is in Free Fall........ (none / 0)

    A story on NPR today said that the Times was cutting 80+ editorial staffers in a cost cutting move.  Circulation is down....  again.  Maybe Goldberg and Stein work cheap??  God knows they're worth it.
    What's odd is that in terms of format and staff hires the Times has repeatedly been stealing from the NYT.  Guess Tribune doesn't want to emulate NYT's editorial stance.  At least when the NYT gets a conservative columnist, he's of the caliber of David Brooks.  Not so in LA.
  •  It's a Hunter (none / 0)

    I usually start in reading the posts without checking out the writer, but two paragraphs into this one I say to myself -- "it's a Hunter."

    Here's a benefit of the doubt. When I get so steamed at the Milwaukee Journal for running Jonah (perfect first name) I realize just about all of the conservative columnits are pretty much the same. They drag down the discourse, they ignore facts, they tell fairy tales.

    Look at it this way. For those who think out there, they read Jonah's whale of a bull shit column and they are being treated to a real mental midget. This is not a good thing -- for conservatives.

  •  Great President (none / 0)

    Leaving aside for the minute that Goldberg says calling Bush a liar is "deranged" and then proceeds to defend Bush's statements as lies for a just cause -- so were they lies or not, you wacky old neocon you? -- let's pause to consider this nugget:

    If Bush succeeds -- still a big if -- the painful irony for Bush's critics is that he will go down in history as a great president, even if he lied, while they will take their paranoia to their graves.

    Painful irony?  Something here is painful, but it ain't the irony.  It's the Bush fanatic's inability to consider Bush's failings for even a second.  This is like Stephen Colbert's standard question for Democratic members of Congress:  "George W. Bush:  great president, or the greatest president."

    Which is more likely?  That Bush will be remembered as a "great" president for (1) his bungling in Iraq; (2) his crippling deficits; (3) his stellar performance in the wake of Katrina; or (4) some other reason -- treasonous scandals, massive corruption, destroying the environment, attempting to kill social security, etc. etc. etc.

    I'm sure that Jonah sees the merits in each of these accomplishments.

  •  When Can America Have This Important Discussion (3.50 / 4)

    A discussion about Zionism and American politics?

    When can we point out that some US politicians and pundits are more concerned with Israel's national security interests than that of the United States?  

    When can Americans question this countries unbiased support for Israel as the primary motivating factor behind terrorism?

    When can we discuss the Neocons in terms of their rabid support for Israel and their involvement in the AIPAC/ Pentagon spy scandal?

    When can we talk about Israel as the number one country when it comes to UN resolution violations?

    When?

    •  gave a preemptory four (none / 0)

      because I bet it won't be right now.  :)
    •  Shhhhh..... (none / 1)

      Quiet. Don't mention the elephant in the room. Don't you get it? Israel good. Arab bad. We wouldn't want to muddy up the war on terra with facts now, would we?

      "Huge brains, small necks, weak muscles and fat wallets. These are the dominant physical characteristics of The Generation Of Swine".

      by runtothehills on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:51:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Zionism, America, a war for Israel, and Jonah (none / 0)

      Thank you LA Times....we hardly know you anymore.

      Anyone notice the recent transformation of National Public Radio?  The past couple of weeks "All Things Considered" gave us uncontested commentary and 'expert' opinion from Krauthammer, David Brooks, John Bolton, David Frum, Michael Rubin....all free to spew their Neocon jibberish on our publicly funded airwaves.

      Zionism vs America....this IS our culture war in America.  When will America wakeup and have this important debate on this issue?

      New name:  National Public Radio for a Greater Israel.

  •  I am looking for another morning paper (none / 0)

    Ever since the Tribune bought the LA Times, I have witnessed unwelcome changes. The Goldberg column really iced me -- more than the years of hateful Ramirez cartoons.

    I don't know the paper anymore, and I don't like it anymore. Thought-provoking commentary is one thing, but sophomoric name-calling and out-and-out lies belong on hate radio and hate TV -- which I am free to ignore. And this is exactly what I plan to do with the Times... after so many years.

    In the meantime, any recommendations for a daily newspaper for a reader in south Orange County, CA?

    We are not a world of nations, we are a world of banks.

    by Eloi Scientist on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:34:42 PM PST

  •  GOP propaganda machine (none / 0)

    Isn't semi-literate wingnuttery what got the GOP into trouble in the first place? Is the Times laughing up its sleeve? Go ahead son, spout your right wing nonsense. Seriously who put them up to this, because the Red Machine owns all of the media outlets in Southern California, except for the Times, and they would love to control the Times, and paste their propaganda on every street corner. Stay subscribed and complain, moonbats, or the accountants will turn your paper over to Fox.

    "Everything is chrome in the future..." Sponge Bob Square Pants

    by agent double o soul on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:35:01 PM PST

  •  Sent this morning.... (none / 0)

    To the editors:

    How unfortunate that Jonah Goldberg's first column in the Times is based on a fallacy -- that FDR's lies somehow validate George W. Bush's.

    To borrow one of Goldberg's phrases, "here's the thing":  FDR's lies did not propel our nation into war; George W. Bush's did.

    "Stop me if you've heard this already"?  Goldberg's writing never rises above the chatty, disingenuous tone of those first few words.  

    Would that the editors had taken him up on the offer.  We've all heard this sort of claptrap before.

  •  Insulting! (none / 0)

    Wow. I stopped reading my LA Times about a week ago and am now prepared to have a bonfire with the still-bundled remains of what was, for quite some time, one of the only 3 major dailies worth reading in this great country.

    I am cancelling my subscription and adding a letter of disgust. I was insulted once by the Tribune in Chicago, but at least they were gradual in their decline.

    This column, coming on the heels of the smily-faced i voted sticker editorial the other day... is the biggest insult I've ever felt from plain words on a page that I pay to read.

    Perhaps not all LA Times readers are at the 12th or 16th grade reading level, but at least their columnists can write as if they have a high school sense of reality and responsibility.

    i'm gonna barf.

  •  The REAL fun begins... (none / 0)

    On his Bio:

    "Jonah Goldberg is one of the most prominent young conservative journalists on the scene today. His column, syndicated by Tribune Media Services, offers shrewd analysis on a wide range of subjects, from political philosophy and economic trends to popular culture, with an entertaining writing style that speaks to a whole new generation.

    With keen wit and hard-hitting insight, Goldberg brings a fresh perspective to the typical right-left debate, by rejecting party lines, talking points and stale clichés. He is the 2001 winner of the prestigious Lowell Thomas Award."

  •  I can't read anything by Goldberg... (none / 0)

    ...without images of Stephen Colbert coming to mind. He's got that pompous, above-it-all air, along with the ability to deliver complete nonsense with stern authority, down pat.

    The underest dog is just as good as I am, and I'm just as good as the toppest dog. - Jimmie Rodgers

    by GreenCA on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:52:41 PM PST

  •  The purpose of editorial content (none / 0)

    The publisher of the LA Times is not a former reporter or columnist.  No, he's an accountant.  He was installed because, unlike the past management, he believes that the function of his newspaper is only incidentally related to quality.  No, the purpose of the LA Times is simple: to make money, either through circulation, advertising, or sale of its content.  Period.  Further, he has evidentally decided that cost cutting on the frills of editorials, national and international reporting, etc. is the way to go.

    The LA Times was a great paper.  Guess what.  Mr. Jeff has taken that and thrown it down the sewer.  Their goal now will be to placate advertisers and do one heck of a job on SoCal.
    Can you wait?

  •  wuss (none / 0)

    jonah is a wuss. geezus, no intelligence.

    while I knew what I would read with scheer. so goldbe is sleeping with someone.

    goldberg is a hack.

  •  Bravo... (none / 0)

    In the end, the Los Angeles Times, as with every other paper in the nation, has a basic decision to make. What is the purpose of editorial content? Is it meant to educate readers? To debate issues? To provide new, original ideas that cannot or will not be presented by the politically powerful? To attack? Or simply as masturbatory fodder for those few readers who treat their political affiliations with the all-encompassing fervor that they treat sports franchises, less concerned with either education, debate, knowledge or accuracy than with half-drunken taunts at the opposing team?

    Fabulous, if this was a speach the crowd would go wild at the end of this portion!!

    It's not easy being a Floridian: PS I'm a lawYER now; no longer a lawSTUDENT.

    by lawstudent922 on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 04:09:44 PM PST

  •  Goucher memories (none / 0)

    Posted in a diary earlier. I'll post again here:

    I attended Goucher College for two years, immediately following Jonah's departure (graduation?) Note that this was about 14 years ago, and that I grew to dislike the school for other reasons. Through various actions of youth, I don't remember a great deal of detail from the time, particularly about someone who wasn't there with me.

    So, with that in mind, IF my memory serves me right, Jonah was always a petty little pissant tyrant. Given my own political views at the time, I agreed with much of what I heard from those who knew him, but thought he was maybe a little extreme.

    If memory serves.

    •  Knowing his mom, (none / 0)

      how could he not be? Growing up with Lucianne as a mother has got to have been one of the more warping experiences I can imagine.

      Jonah has always been a little-bus pundit -- it's funny, he still surfs of the "young pundit" vibe, in spite of the fact that he's god-knows-how-old by now. That's one of the things that makes his schtick so creepy.

      I don't know if his heart's just not in the family business, or he's just plain bad at it, or what. To think that the conservative movement has slid from Buckley and Will to ...that... is truly remarkable. That the owners of the LAT thought it was a good depiction of conservatism is... well, hell, maybe they're right. It could even be a very elaborate joke, I suppose.

      But as someone else said, he'd be better off selling his family's Linda Tripp tapes. Or at least, the rest of us would be.

      •  Should be roughly 35 (none / 0)

        Going based on my age, relative years in college, etc., he should be about 36 years old or so. Certainly old enough that any attempts to kick it with the kids appear beyond lame. I think the correct term is 'pathetic'.
  •  I can hear the phones ringing . . . (none / 0)

    ... as the Mainstream Southern California citizenry calls to cancel their subscriptions to the Times.  Cash flow problems will only increase.

    The reason for the firing of Robert Scheer and the others was ostensibly as a budget balancing maneuver.

    Now, the press room may be included in that belt tightening, as they will certainly have pissed off the citizenry with Goldberg calling people in the LA Basin "deranged moonbats" because they think Bush lied.

    If 57% of the U.S. thinks Bush lied, what must the percentage in LA be?

    Go ahead, you dipshit, Goldberg!  Suck your owner's c___.  It will be one of the last pleasures he will have before declaring bankruptcy for the LA Times.

  •  Not up to the standards? (none / 0)

    Whaddya mean that the blogs shouldn't be held to the same standards of "excellence" as the "respected" newspapers?

    Your writing is easily as good or better than anything I've seen from "respected" columnists-- Krugman and Molly Ivins excepted of course.

    They're a bunch of mindless, overpaid hacks. You or any of the other serious bloggers write circles around them.

    And have more and better fact-checkers-- us-- than they do too.

  •  Uncancellable (none / 0)

    After over thirty years of home delivery of the LATIMES, I called to cancel last Saturday after the news of their editorial decision. The paper kept coming. I called again to cancel early Wednesday morning, but still received the Jonah Goldberg crapola edition this morning. I've tried emailing their reader representative, and get a dead link.

    Many of us in the progressive community in the OC have subscribed to the Times because we refuse to pay for the fascitarian OC Register. In talking to my friends, not one will pay their next LA Times bill. If you want crap, you can get it cheaper from the Register, and get the local news besides.

    There is a God, but he got an MBA. How else can you explain our world?

    by Aeolus on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 04:32:15 PM PST

  •  In a flash... (none / 0)

    The LAT turns itself into the Cincinnati Enquirer.  
  •  My letter: (none / 0)

    To the Editor:

    I've been having the LAT delivered to me since I moved to Los Angeles 3 years ago.  

    I was shocked by inclusion of the Jonah Goldberg column.  That kind of writing has no place in a serious newspaper.  Though I tend vote to the left of Rush Limbaugh, I do enjoy reading other points of view (ie - David Brooks, etc.) but the Goldberg column was little but shrill and misinformed partisan talking points.

    The LA Times should aspire to a level of discourse above that of right-wing talk radio.  If the Goldberg column is an attempt at 'balance', it was an inept and incongruous choice and a poor fit for legitimate metropolitan newspaper.

    I will sooner cancel my subscription than have my dollars support such mean-spirited inanity.

    Los Angeles, CA

  •  Nepotism Stinks (none / 0)

    It rewards and promotes cowardice. That's why I trust a guy like Bob Herbert. He trades in real experience and smarts and not the safe insulated marketing bullshit of a family business.

    Fear doesn't always cause your foes to cower in a corner. Sometimes it causes them to beat the crap out of you with a bag of rusty nails. Ta-Nehisi Coates

    by hhex65 on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 04:42:52 PM PST

  •  does the LA Times even give a fcuk? (none / 0)

    The Right Wing thugs took down a career journalist like Dan Rather for less. We can walk away from the slime that is goldberg or speak up and tell him and his employer to cheney off. How low can the so-called MSM go? Too sickening to think about.

    ~ have a powerful day ~

    by moeman on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 05:04:31 PM PST

  •  Now where do I go? (none / 0)

    As a lifer in Los Angeles, I have read the LA Times since my daddy showed me the funnies pages before I could read, and have been a subscriber for over thirty years.

    I am a voracious reader and have always read several newspapers a day (especially the ranting wingnut papers = always good to keep an eye on the enemy).  I sure miss The Herald Examiner.  The Daily News tries with Sowell and others, but just doesn't hold a candle for good old crunchy wingnuttiness.

    I quit watching network news sometime in the 80's.  They had already perfected the Attention Deficit Disorder format by then, and it wasn't long after that we got the freeway chase version that has persisted to this day.

    When The Times was bought by The Tribune was the beginning of the end.  They might as well have changed the banner to "The Chicago Times", or better, "The Corporation's Meme".  But they held on to some of the vestiges of their heritage.

    But the new publisher has killed it all the way dead and then some (undead?  like Cheney?).  The new formats which used up previous news space with REALLY LARGE FONTS

    AND

    LOTS

    OF

    SPACES

    and their reliance on lots of cartoons instead of stories (perhaps so GWB can claim he reads a newspaper).

    And now, we get Joel Stein and Judas Goldberg (I bet they pay him in pieces of silver).  Jettising Robert Scheer after 30 years of service with no explanation GRRRRR.

    I can't cancel my subscription in response to this, because I cancelled it about three months ago due to delivery problems that had to do with destroying my garden.  But I was still buying it from a newstand about 4 times a week.  I now see that practice must come to an end as well.

    Their subscription numbers are in the toilet, and will continue to decline until only the dittoheads are left on the rolls.  Which serves them right.

    BUT - where do I go now for news?  I mean, I love KOS, but it's hardly "news" with the lengthy debates on religion, atheism, and cursing (fuck God and all).  They can't write books fast enough to stay current, and Michael Moore is only good for a movie every few years, and y'all can't blog fast enough without all the clutter and silly comments to keep me satisfied.

    SOOO - Now where do I go?

  •  Just Cancel (none / 0)

    Cancel your subscrition today and let them know WHY. Vote with your frickin pocketboook.

    BTW you can get the whole paper free on line if you got to read it.

  •  L.A. Times (none / 0)

    was such a fine paper. This is very sad. Why is this happening? I hope they read this really well written blog.
  •  nice smackdown (none / 0)

    This sentence threw me:

    Still, the media and anti-Bush partisans have been bizarrely unmoved by the revelations of Hussein's killing fields, his torture chambers for tots and democracy's tangible progress in the Middle East.

    Perhaps I have been unmoved due to our own killing fields (Fallujah), our own torture chambers (Abu Ghraib, The Salt Pit, Morocco, Egypt, the Phillipines, Gitmo), and the fact that democracy and native insurgencies can't co-exist.

    He's either stupid or he's lying.  I'm not sure which option gives him the benefit of the doubt.

    •  Bad dogg (1.50 / 2)

      Fallujah was hardly a killing field; our "torture chambers" are quite pleasant compared to Hussein's; and the statement that "democracy and native insurgencies can't coexist" is neither demonstrably true nor relevant to Iraq even if it were (as no one seriously proposes that they should coexist: not the Iraqi govt., even less the "insurgents".) Meanwhile, when ignorant statments like yours give ignorant persons the impression that you have said something meaningful, you make the prospect of peace less likely. Wise up, dogg.
  •  Tribune's Chicago competition says... (none / 0)

  •  Yellow Elephant (none / 0)

    Jonah Goldberg will not go into combat and fight for the "noble cause". He is comfy just sitting in front of his laptop sipping a cappucino.
    Maybe the LAT will send him on assignment to Bagdad so he can learn the realities of war and he may just have another opinion. That is the problem, Goldberg, Dear Leader and Vice have never been in combat. They are friggin he-men with yellow stripes.
  •  This is my letter to the LA Times (none / 1)

    Editor,
    I'm actually embarrassed for you. Mr. Goldberg is clearly not up to your usual standards as an opinion columnist. Why on earth are you running his work? I can name any number of ameteur bloggers who are more qualified - in the use of the english language, if nothing else. If you must put forth a Bush administration pimp, at least find one who can write intelligently. "deranged moonbats"? Did no one even read this column before printing it?
  •  Stop me if you've heard this before... (none / 0)

    but, "that I, as a blogger, can understand the differences between random partisan blog posts and the quality of debate deserving of wider publication,"

    is as timeless a puch to the gut as Swift's modest proposal.

  •  Republicans & FDR (none / 0)

    I don't know what it is with Republicans and FDR. They have such a fixation on him, and try to slam him whenever then can, I don't get it. The man died in 1945, and yet today these people want to trash him whenever they get a shot.  Did they take a blood oath years ago from their parents to get revenge for them. Really weird!
    Even the Dodgers couldn't do such a bad deal, Robert Scheer for Jonah Goldberg.
  •  someone tell Richard Clarke (none / 0)

    he's a deranged moonbat.

    I've got news for you. The wealth has already been redistributed.

    by tinfoilhat on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 06:44:10 PM PST

  •  The response to Goldberg and His ilk (none / 0)

    should just remind them that there was a group that blindly followed their duly elected leader even into war- they were called Hitler's YOUTH.
    They have resurfaced in the form of YOUNG Republicans once headed by the same kind of manical leader- KARL ROVE.
  •  Reading impaired (1.00 / 3)

    I wonder if you read the same editorial that I did. Goldberg makes none of the statements you attribute to him. This makes you (choose all that apply):

       A) Reading impaired
       B) Logic impaired
       C) A liar

    •  Choose (none / 0)

      Tough choice, I guess best to put me in the A, B, And C catagory.

      It is quite clear to me that---"who think that George W. Bush lied about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein. No, seriously, it's true"---by Goldger is correct.

      No, seriously george did lie and Golberg was correct to admit that.

      Oh, and 'speaking of ignorance'---how does Mozzis know that "our torture chambers are quite pleasent compaired to Hussains"? A bit of OJT perhaps? Maybe it is just in the name-so let's call ours "Compassionate torture chambers--a place where love and pain meet". Could become a money making privatized tourist attraction.

  •  LA Times (none / 0)

    A fully spot on smack-down of the LA Times. They should truly be embarrassed for printing such dreck.
  •  My God (none / 0)

    I would not have read Goldberg's column without your prompting.  He has always impressed me as a George Bush Lite - empty-headed, effete, craven.

    Reading the column, though, makes me shivver.  It is, I agree, so poorly written that one has to struggle to get its point.  The column seems, though, to be attempting to conflate FDR's decision to go to war against Hitler with Bush's decision to invade Iraq.  The attempt seems to be to send the message, "If you think WWII was justified and FDR was a good President, then you must think Iraq is justified and Bush is a good President."  Huh?

    The mind-blowing aspect of the column is that Goldberg seems to be trying to say that Bush's lying to take us to war was acceptable, and even noble.

    An impeachable offence?  Noble?  

    And this, coming from someone whose mother is alleged to have been a Monica for LBJ, and who then had the audacity to participate in the ambushing of Clinton?

    Demand Accountability.

    by stlawrence on Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 03:48:07 AM PST

  •  Somewhere, Kyle Palmer is smiling (none / 0)

    Let's not forget that editorial integrity at the L.A. Times is a relatively recent development.

    Here is an excerpt from "Privileged Son," a fantastic book about the L.A. Times and Otis Chandler:

    Actually, the biggest joke in California was not the young publisher but the geriatric Los Angeles Times. It regularly appeared on lists of the 10 worst newspapers in the country. S. J. Perelman had once famously declared that on a train trip to California he asked a porter for a newspaper ''and unfortunately the poor man, hard of hearing, brought me The Los Angeles Times.'' The broadcaster Chet Huntley observed that by reading The Los Angeles Times he knew he could find the truth ''by going 180 degrees in the other direction.''

    For decades, the newspaper remained aggressively mediocre despite its owners' deep pockets. Partisanship knew no bounds. In 1934, after the muckraker Upton Sinclair captured the Democratic nomination for governor and appeared headed for victory in November, the paper's political editor, Kyle Palmer, told a visiting reporter from The New York Times, Turner Catledge, ''We don't go in for . . . being obliged to print both sides.'' He promised that his paper would ''kill'' Sinclair politically (and it did). Sixteen years later, Palmer, still a political kingmaker, wrote that his paper would promote the Senate candidacy of Richard M. Nixon, allowing that ''from time to time, as space allows,'' it might also cover his rival, Helen Gahagan Douglas.

    It didn't take Otis Chandler long to tinker with this formula, to make the critics, as he put it, ''eat their bloody words'' and make The Los Angeles Times ''one of the world's great newspapers.'' Just months after he assumed office, the newspaper, which had endorsed Nixon for president, provided shockingly fair coverage of his opponent, John F. Kennedy -- which made Nixon livid. The paper repeated this equal-time performance in 1962 when Nixon ran for governor against Pat Brown. Amazingly, it was a reporter from this still-Republican paper who was a prime target of the infamous ''You won't have Nixon to kick around'' statement. Otis Chandler's Los Angeles Times was on its way to becoming not only one of the richest but one of the two or three best newspapers in the country.

    Anyway, happy days again! Jonah Goldberg is on the team. Somewhere, Kyle Palmer and Harry Chandler are smiling. No wonder newspapers are going down the tubes (and I work for a newspaper).

  •  I simply (none / 0)

    I simply worte him asking him, if he truly felt as he states in the editoral, that bush is telling the truth and Sadam is Hitleristic, then why didn't he drop his pen and grab a rifle.
  •  Jonah---SOB (none / 0)

    Jonah Goldberg is the only person in the history of journalism entirely due to his mother's dual claims to fame.  She has said that as a White House aide,  she slept with LBJ.  And then, of course, she earned her place in history by telling Monica to save the semen stained dress.
    And, voila, we get Jonah.  Talentless clod.  I know Bush is called a member of the lucky sperm club.  Jonah is a member of the sperm-left on a tissue- but still spermy enough to produce if not an intelligent human, at least a shameless one -club.
  •  Jonah---SOB (CORRECTED) (none / 0)

    Jonah Goldberg is the only person in the history of journalism to get great jobs entirely due to his mother's dual claims to fame.  She has said that as a White House aide,  she slept with LBJ.  And then, of course, she earned her place in history by telling Monica to save the semen stained dress.
    And, voila, we get Jonah.  Talentless clod.  I know Bush is called a member of the lucky sperm club.  Jonah is a member of the sperm-left on a tissue- but still spermy enough to produce if not an intelligent human, at least a shameless one -club.
  •  It is the new publisher's fault (none / 0)

    I am also deeply troubled by the announced changes to the cast of editorial writers at the LA Times. It is very sad. Just two or three years ago I would have argued that the paper was the best in the country. Everyone should understand that the origin of the changes lies in its Chicago Tribune owners, in general, and in its new publisher Jeff Johnson, in particular. My question is, "How badly is J.J. going to harm the news departments?" He seems to be puffing the entertainment sections at the expense of newsgathering. People have been laid off by the scores.  I can ignore opinion writers. Right-wing columns have become pretty interchangeable anyway. They look up the White House talking points of the week, make up some straw man to attack, and then go at it with less depth than a drop of 3-in-1 oil floating in a toilet. The news is my concern. I'll miss Scheer, though. Fortunately he will be available on-line and the San Francisco Chronicle will help with paying his rent. This is L.A., for God's sake. We are a liberal town. We need voices who will speak for the majority of us. Bean counter, Jeff Johnson, not a news reporter, is insisting on his own tone over there. I suspect there will be resignations soon.

    Honestly I think the best way to get their attention would be to boycott a few select advertisers - particularly anyone who advertises on the op-ed page. An even better approach would be for the wealthy progressive community in Santa Monica and the West Side to have a quiet chat with Johnson explaining that this is not Chicago and that his interference in our culture is not welcome here. Culture is a big industry here. If Johnson can screw with the editorial page and squeeze the news section; he can certainly skew how culture is covered. Is there anyone less qualified? How culture is covered helps determine its value and there are big bucks at stake. Who can trust the LA Times to get it right anymore?

  •  Thank you for not quoting any more of Goldberg (none / 0)

    He has nothing important to say, but you have so much to say. I hope you are heard.

    This type of disinformation is what the media feeds us. It's not about truth. It's about getting out your side of a story.

    Papers like the L.A. Times and now the N.Y. Times, according to Armando this morning, do not deserve to be bought or read even if they do have Dowd and Rich (it seems we can read them without paying for their paper). I have given up on reading the "legitimate" newspapers or really watching the mainstream news channels. I now read the blogs.  They not only are more informative, but they provide the news before the MSM reports it.

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