Daily Kos

Global Warming Discussions On The Airplane

Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 02:49:00 PM PDT

Had a discussion on the airplane with someone (a former Alaska fisheries field researcher, for God's sake) and heard a repeat of the same environmental myths I hear over and over.  

So, for all of us who believe in changing attitudes one person at a time, here are some quick responses to those myths, and some helpful, if stunning, facts...

First, let's applaud a NYT op-ed for giving prominent year-end coverage to two global warming stories and quickly memorize a few factoids from them.

An op-ed appropriately entitled While You Were Sleeping, summarizes two of this year's huge discoveries:

1.  Greenhouse gases are higher than they have ever been.  EVER.
(okay, not truly "ever," but check this out--)

To find out whether human activities are changing the atmosphere, scientists took ice cores from ancient glaciers in Greenland and Antarctica. Bubbles of air trapped in the ice provided a pristine sampling of the atmosphere going back 650,000 years. The study, published last month in the journal Science, found that the level of carbon dioxide, one of the greenhouse gases that can warm the planet, is now 27 percent higher than at any previous time. The level is even far higher now than it was in periods when the climate was much warmer and North America was largely tropical. Climatologists said the ice cores left no doubt that the burning of fossil fuels is altering the atmosphere in a substantial and unprecedented way.

Did everybody catch that?  Key facts:

  •  Ice core samples going back 650,000 years.  
  •  650,000 years is 2-3 times longer than the emergence of homo sapiens as a species.
  •  Carbon dioxide levels are 27% higher than at any previous time.
  •  This was reported in the journal Science.

When the NYT originally reported this Science story, as I diaried here, they quoted climatologists stating that CO2 and climate are coupled -- chained together -- one may lead, or the other may lead, but they move in tandem.  This leaves no doubt that a massive climate correction is upon us.

On to the op-ed's second point:

2.  Polar ice melting is causing the Gulf Stream to shut down.

One of the more alarming possible consequences of global warming appears to be already under way. The rapid melting of the Arctic and Greenland ice caps, a new study finds, is causing freshwater to flood into the North Atlantic. That infusion of icy water appears to be deflecting the northward flow of the warming Gulf Stream, which moderates winter temperatures for Europe and the northeastern United States. The flow of the Gulf Stream has been reduced by 30 percent since 1957, the National Oceanography Center in Britain found. Perhaps you'll remember that in the film "The Day After Tomorrow," the collapse of the Gulf Stream produces a violent climate shift and a new ice age for much of the Northern Hemisphere. Climatologists don't foresee a future quite that catastrophic, but something worrisome, they say, is afoot.

Key facts:

  • The flow of the gulf stream has been reduced by 30% since 1957.
  • FYI, the gulf stream is the reason that Britain is warmer than Siberia.

I'm not going to belabor these points, only because I'm more interested in talking about two myths that are going around.  I diaried more on both these stories back when they first came out.  Also, Doolittle diaried that 2005 was the warmest year on record. Please check these stories out if you're interested to learn more.  

Two more points to review and commit to memory, then we get on to the good stuff:

1. As the International Herald Tribune reported in September (as covered by Grist),
Europeans are already preparing their infrastructure for climate change.

While Americans quibble ignorantly over whether climate change is really happening, Europeans are already adapting to it. Swedish foresters are being told to plant trees that will thrive in warmer temperatures. Planners of a new subway system in Copenhagen, Denmark, raised all structures to accommodate an anticipated 1.5-foot rise in sea level over the next century. New docks in Hamburg, Germany, and Rotterdam, Netherlands, are also being built with rising oceans in mind. Austrian ski resorts short on snow are planning hiking trails and golf courses. Jacqueline McGlade, executive director of the European Environment Agency, says Europe's Arctic and southernmost reaches are especially vulnerable to global warming. Changing conditions may turn people from those regions into climate refugees, forced to move toward the continent's center. "Our resilience is quite low in the face of climate change," she says.

2.  As a Nature article from a year ago reported (as covered by BBC news), climate change could drive a million species extinct:

Climate change could drive a million of the world's species to extinction as soon as 2050, a scientific study says.

The authors say in the journal Nature a study of six world regions suggested a quarter of animals and plants living on the land could be forced into oblivion.

They say cutting greenhouse gases and storing the main one, carbon dioxide, could save many species from vanishing.

The United Nations says the prospect is also a threat to the billions of people who rely on Nature for their survival.

These are dramatic and quite disturbing, I think.  They leave no question in my mind that we are quite dramatically changing the future of life on this planet.

In this airplane discussion, I heard all the myths of environmental discourse in one 10 minute package.  So, for all of you out there who are trying to have these same conversations, here are my rebuttals to those points.  I'd love to hear yours.

Myth #1.  We're changing the planet, not killing it.

  • Quite true.  I concede this one pretty quickly.  And it's the toughest one to counter.  The physical structure -- rock, water, minerals -- will still exist.  Evolution will continue.
  • Does this person give any value to the suffering of humans and other species?  The changes that are occurring will quite likely lead to suffering, mass migrations, starvations, etc. And Merlot Democrat informs us of a WashPost report showing that already, global warming causes about 150,000 deaths a year, to climb to over half a million by 2030.
  • Will the earth still be habitable to humans once it's changed?  Good question.
  • Does this person give any value to the existence of other species?  This one takes some thought.  Is an island, right after a volcanic eruption, as "good" as an island teeming with a multitude of species?  Many would say yes.  I personally am not comfortable being that volcano.  True, life will evolve again.  But it took 65 million years for the 4000 mammal species we now have to evolve.  A million species.  Wow.

Myth #2.  Scientists aren't certain global warming is occurring.

I take this one on head-on.  Which scientists disagree?  This person didn't really know.

You want to know which scientists think global warming is occurring?? "In recent years all major scientific bodies in the United States whose members' expertise bears directly on the matter have issued similar statements," as the WP reported almost exactly a year ago, in Undeniable Global Warming.

This includes:

  • the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), created in 1988 by the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environmental Program,
  • the National Academy of Sciences,
  • the American Meteorological Society,
  • the American Geophysical Union, and
  • the American Association for the Advancement of Science.  

A National Academy of Sciences report begins unequivocally: "Greenhouse gases are accumulating in Earth's atmosphere as a result of human activities, causing surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures to rise."

But, other possible responses to this argument include:

  • Sometimes I make a little joke.  "I think tobacco industry scientists still won't admit that smoking causes cancer."
  • What level of certainty do they want? We know greenhouse gasses have increased.  We know climate change is occurring.  We're guessing the two facts are related.  We know the ice caps are already melting.  What do they need to know before they'd say that we ought to take some steps?
  • Do they have any optional insurance -- car insurance? homeowners insurance?  Most people take actions to prevent disaster even if they're not SURE a fire is going to burn down their house.
  • What would it hurt to act? We could cut household electricity use in half just by conservation measures.
  • I ask, "Why should someone have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is occurring?  Isn't it enough to suggest that there's a decent probability?"  Or "Shouldn't the industries -- who have a lot more money, btw -- have to provide pretty good research suggesting that it won't occur?"  (True, it's hard to prove a negative, but I haven't seen anything that comes close.)  These are casual ways of discussing the Precautionary Principle, which shifts the burden of proof -- no longer should a victim have to prove harm IS occurring, the active party should have to prove their activities WON'T cause harm.

These are just a few myths and a few responses, in hopes of sparking some discussion.  

What were your holiday discussions about environmental issues like?  I'd love to hear!

P.S.  Yes, I know air travel contributes to global warming.  :(

Tags: global warming, climate change, environment, Recommended, Levée (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 124 comments

  •  Excellent diary. Highly recommend. (4.00 / 5)

    •  Some extra links (none / 1)

      For those seeking to repel the arguments of the hear-no-evil, see-no-evil crowd:

      The IPCC, the largest world body studying climate change, taking into account every piece of peer-reviewd literature on the subject, has warned of the dangers of global warming with increasing certainty since 1995. Their most recent paper, the 2001 Third Assesment Report (TAR) had their strongest confirmation yet:

      "In the light of new evidence and taking into account the remaining uncertainties, most of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations."

      2001 Third Asssessment Report (TAR)

      Secondly, Nation Academies of Science. The National Academies of Science of all the G8 nations - America, Britain, France, Russia, Italy, Germany, Canada, Japan - plus that of emerging economies China and India published a joint statement before the recent G8 meeting at Gleneagles that was almost entirely ignored by the press. They confirmed that the evidence was so overwhelming as to warrant immediate action.

      National Academies of Science Statement

      Some other links:

      Oreskes, 2004, in Science Magazine, which reviewed the body of peer-reviewed literature and found not a single published work which argued directly against climate change evidence, which the author found 'remarkable.'

      The American Meterological Society (AMS) which stated:

      There is now clear evidence that the mean annual temperature at the Earth's surface, averaged over the entire globe, has been increasing in the past 200 years. There is also clear evidence that the abundance of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere has increased over the same period. In the past decade, significant progress has been made toward a better understanding of the climate system and toward improved projections of long-term climate change... The report by the IPCC stated that the global mean temperature is projected to increase by 1.4°C-5.8°C in the next 100 years... Human activities have become a major source of environmental change. Of great urgency are the climate consequences of the increasing atmospheric abundance of greenhouse gases... Because greenhouse gases continue to increase, we are, in effect, conducting a global climate experiment, neither planned nor controlled, the results of which may present unprecedented challenges to our wisdom and foresight as well as have significant impacts on our natural and societal systems. It is a long-term problem that requires a long-term perspective. Important decisions confront current and future national and world leaders.

      ---

      In conclusion, an excellent post and I hope these links come in useful to anyone else interested in the subject.

      Mephistopheles

      "In America fundamentalist Christians believe the world was created 6,000 years ago - in England people drink in bars that are older than that." - Steve Aylett

      by Mephistopheles on Sat Dec 31, 2005 at 06:13:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How to be a Global Winner in the debate (none / 0)

      It is an either/Or argument but to make it a winner then you need to pose it that no matter what you suggest it is a winner.

      If there is Global Warming then Doing something now is a winner(save the planet).
      If there is no Global Warming then Doing something makes our world a better place(cleaner air,water, etc.)
      I ask: "Don't you want clean water? Clean Air?" "Do you care for God's creatures?" Then doing something only helps or improves our lives and the future of the planet.

  •  I just roll my eyes (4.00 / 4)

    That's a good rebuttal - which ones don't agree?  I'll bet they don't know, they just "heard it somewhere."  I say that every scientist agrees that the earth is warming (if not, they can't read a graph).  The disagreement is really how much of the change is human-driven.  Would they argue that humans don't have any effect on the environment?

    One argument that works is that the U.S. needs to lead the world in science, not lag it.  If we wait too long to address it, we'll have to buy technology from other countries instead of sell it.  DuPont cut its carbon emissions and made billions doing it.  What reason do they have not to address the issue?  Hope?  Why do they think those hurricanes are getting so strong?  Usually when challenged, they'll back down because they don't have any facts on their side.  It also helps that I'm a scientist and so I ask them if they think they know more about this subject, could they suggest reading for me?

    Turn ons: progressives, Democrats with spines Turn offs: conservatives, people named Bush, John McCain

    by Unstable Isotope on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 02:54:26 PM PDT

    •  Yeah, that's a great approach (4.00 / 9)

      It's nice you have that scientific authority on your side.  In this discussion, I didn't.  This guy had been a field biologist, so he was pulling out all the "skeptical scientist" routines, like "I think some people may be interpreting the data politically" and "I'd really have to see those studies."

      As a grassroots activist type, I can't tell you how much it has meant when scientists have weighed in on the side of the public interest.  It's so great that you can play that role!

    •  First, do they back down (4.00 / 4)

      or do their views change? The latter is the important goal, in my opinion.

      Second:

      I ask them if they think they know more about this subject, could they suggest reading for me?

      That's an excellent line. Should work for those of us who aren't scientists, too.
      •  Good, good point. (4.00 / 5)

        A distinction I was overlooking in the heat of the moment.

        Another non-science approach I've taken is "You might be right.  But it does have me worried."  Some people have softened up when I'm expressing my own sincere concern, rather than other emotions (e.g., frustration with politicians) or logical arguments.

      •  The problem there ... (none / 0)

        There are several academics with chairs at top universities who make a public career of doubting that humans have much responsibility for climate change. There are institutes funded by Exxon Mobil that give generous grants to them; then they show up in the "he said/she said" "news" shows; the institutes also "publish" their papers — which then get quoted as if they were papers in legitimate scientific journals in the WSJ, AP stories, and the like.

        So the person you're speaking with is likely to believe that there are "scientists" and "scientific papers" out there backing them up, even if they can't, of course, cite the publication of those papers or perhaps remember the (unfortunately sometimes legitimate) scientists' names.

    •  Another argument.... (4.00 / 5)

      Another argument I use when I hear people say that scientists don't agree on Global warming is state that if you count take every scientist who is remotely connected to the sciences that deal with climate, and then proceed to subtract those on the Government payroll, or the payroll of big business, you will find that nearly 98% scientifically conclude that global warming is real, and is man made.

      Then I throw in "You can even subtract every scientist who is on the payroll of groups like the Sierra Club, and the percentage that scientificaly conclude that global warming is real, and man made, probably drops to 97%".

  •  People who are so uninformed and don't care (4.00 / 2)

    about our planet drive me crazy.  Good diary.

    He that chooses his own path needs no map. Queen Kristina of Sweden.

    by Boppy on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 02:59:34 PM PDT

    •  We believe it in Minnesota! (4.00 / 6)

      Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. Horace Mann (and btw, the bike in kayakbiker is a bicycle)

      by Kayakbiker on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:22:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have to say (none / 1)

        The image of someone, all bundled up, marching through the snow holding up a sign saying "stop global warming" seems rather incongruous.
        •  Yes but... (none / 0)

          ...that really is a silly argument if:
          A: you want to stop global warming and think winter's should be cold (as per our current climate)
          b: It's winter and then IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE COLD.
        •  True (4.00 / 2)

          but they weren't really having cold weather :-) Up here in the "nort'" 22 years ago, we had a fairly typical week-long siege of -40F weather.  I remember it well, lighting charcoal under the car to get the damned thing to start.

          That never happens anymore.  We might get one -20°F day all year.  

          That's unusually easy weather, for a boreal state.

          Sometimes a .sig is just a .sig.

          by rhubarb on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 05:22:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I can vouch for that.... (none / 1)

            Meanwhile, Europe is becomming colder, and this year in France, homeless people and others are dying from exposure.

            Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. Horace Mann (and btw, the bike in kayakbiker is a bicycle)

            by Kayakbiker on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 06:33:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (none / 0)

              Having lived in Europe for most of the past 40 years, the overwhelming evidence is that Europe, and the UK, is getting much, much warmer. The supposedly "cold" winter that we're currently experiencing would have been an "average" winter 30-40 years ago.

              All the data points agree on this issue - glaciers don't retreat when the climate cools.

          •  Cyclical changes (none / 0)

            There is no question there is a shift in climate temperatures and that man-made factors are major causes. If there is a sudden change leading to a new ice age it will come as a result of man-made pollutants. However, to be honest, most climatologists will admit that the earth has gone through cyclical changes since the earth was formed, and would continue to change whether man was here or not. The gulf stream would be altered regardless, though not at the rate it is today. It is also proven that population growth is another factor because of development of lands and the reduction of rain forrests throughout the world. As a result of increase US consumerism of SUVs and other transportation and industrial related factors, there is a point where the rate of change will increase exponentially and cannot be stopped even if mankind somehow ended all use of burning fossil fuels. Some actually believe that this is the case today, and regardless of what we do, it will speed up over the next 30 years. I believe we have already tipped the balance, especially in the past few years. With our president and vice president so tied to the energy industry, we are too dependent on petroleum to alter our behavior for the next generation. Many computer models I have seen indicates the earth naturally sustains climate changes because of its tilt of the axis, rotation and gravitational influences. There is another factor to consider that may add a great deal to climate changes and that is the change of earth's magnetic field. This is really a scary scenario that the administration is playing Russian roulette with the lives of our children and grandchildren.

            You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war..... Albert Einstein,

            by tazz on Sat Dec 31, 2005 at 06:07:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I remember well (none / 0)

            the week long sieges of -20 below or more, usually around the 3rd week of January, when my birthday falls.  I always felt proud to challenge those cold temps.  Although getting up every two hours during the night to run the car engine was not enjoyable :)
        •  Climate Change... (none / 0)

          ...not global warming.  It is more accurate and defuses skeptics ill-informed arguments.
    •  I agree (4.00 / 3)

      and what scares me even worse are people who are misinformed.  My uncle just had an interesting conversation with me in which he informed me of something I had never connected before.  The largest audience for (default)right-wing talk radio are truckdrivers.  They listen to stay awake at all hours of the night.  Now they are usually union members, which means that they should be Democrats, right?  But the hacks with the microphones are doing their best to brainwash our truckdrivers, and it's working.  Since the Right-wing agenda wants to demolish worker protections, the truckdrivers are now worried about their jobs, which is where the hacks come back with the same old "who cares about a salamander when your job is on the line?" crap!  Seriously spooky.
  •  Climate change (4.00 / 2)

    Its pretty clear that the Gulf Stream is in trouble. There is a tropical storm forming in the Atlantic today, and Britain is covered in snow. The amount of warm water in the stream is declining, they have measured it. Europe is going to be getting much colder.

    The Canadian Rockies are seeing a very green Christmas in the valleys and the glaciers are declining much more quickly than even the experts predicted.

    How many billions are we to be by 2050?

    Think Tank. "A place where people are paid to think by the makers of tanks" Naomi Klein.

    by ohcanada on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:01:29 PM PDT

    •  Billions and Billions! (4.00 / 2)

      If they survive! The Earth has ways of protecting itself against abuse.

      Remember, THEY hate us for our Freedom! The freedom for the President to do as he damn well pleases.

      by Tuba Les on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:20:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Gulf Stream has pulses (none / 1)

      if that's the right name for it.  In cycles of something like 50-70 years.  About the time period reported in the diary.  AKA Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation.  Then there's an additional question about deep ocean circulation.  North Atlantic typically major source for downwelling; lower salinity melt capable of changing that (less dense than saltier water, so less likely to sink).

      Not to say there's not a problem there, but rather to say that there's multiple factors to be teased out.  There are cycles, probably escalating.  But you've got to understand the cycles well enough to argue plausibly for escalating rather than recurring cycles.

      John McCain voted against health care for kids.

      by Land of Enchantment on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 04:59:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've resolved to stop (4.00 / 3)

      calling the thermohaline circulation (THC) the "Gulf Stream", as I'm told by meteorologists that they're two different things. The Gulf Stream is a wind-driven phenomenon caused by the oceanic westward flow being blocked by the North American continent. I believe there are similar flows on the eastern seaboards of other continents.

      The Thermohaline Circulaton is something else, a conveyor belt of water driven by the difference in heat and salinity of the ocean in the tropics and the higher latitudes.  

      They move in the same direction, but different things happen to them to slow them down and speed them up.

    •  meh (none / 0)

      Maybe fantasy Britain ( Narnia?) is covered in snow - but there's no snow or ice outside round my part of London, or the vast majority of the rest of England, Scotland and Wales. We did have some wintry weather on the Eastern side of Britain for a few days this week, which is attributable to the fact that it's, er, winter.

      Considering that the UK is as far north as Labrador, it's not surprising that we get winter weather in winter; what's surprising is that what is being touted as a cold winter this year would have been an average winter for most of the recent pre-1990 past; a bad winter in the UK is benchmarked against 1962-63 or 1947. There may well be problems with the Gulf Stream, but there has yet to be any change to European winter
      weather that can be attributed to it.

      FWIW, I suspect that the flow is likely to recover during the winter from summer lows - after all, if the problem is being caused by melting freshwater ice in summer, there will be a cyclical kick-back when the seasonal winter freeze occurs, thereby strengthening the heat exchange mechanism during those months - so we still get the electric blanket effect, albeit potentially diminished, for a good while to come.

    •  Who Survives? (none / 0)

      I videotaped the great biologist Lynn Margolis at a "New Age" event.  One questioner asked about the end of life on this planet and Dr Margolis shot her down in flames.  

      Margolis replied that more than half the life on this planet is microscopic.  It is the height of solipsistic arrogance to assume that because human beings may go extinct all life is thus doomed.  There's plenty of living species that will survive probably no matter what we do.

      Us puny humans can probably kill off most of the higher vertebrates and a good portion of the vegetation but cockroaches and dust mites and algae will survive.

      Don't get caught up in Chicken Little environmentalism.  It is about enlightened self-interest.  You like eating Florida grapefruit?  How long you think you'll be able to do that when a good portion of Florida is under water and the Gulf Stream shuts down?

      Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at http://solarray.blogspot.com/2006/03/solar-video.html

      by gmoke on Sat Dec 31, 2005 at 10:49:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Junk Science (4.00 / 6)

    If you really want some arguments that are well phrased anti-global warming, try JunkScience.com.  There is a lot of stuff there to debunk.  He actually takes the time to find those scientists that doubt global warming.

    The entire argument comes down to 3 points:


    1. Emissions of gases such as carbon dioxide and methane are increasing un-naturally due to human activity.  This has been proved beyond a shadow of any doubt, even on junk science.
    2. Average global surface, sea, and air temperatures are increasing.  This, too, is not being disputed.  Tundra is melting, glaciers are melting, plants and animals are being affected.
    3. Number 1 causes number 2.  This, of course, is the bone of contention.  This is really where if you don't know your stuff you can get hammered.  What are the studies that connect carbon emissions to temperature increases?  The IPCC probably has the best stuff on that.

    We're all just monkeys burning in hell. SmokeyMonkey.org

    by smokeymonkey on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:03:46 PM PDT

  •  Just one of the creatures that cares! (4.00 / 5)

    •  Yeah, they're drowning (4.00 / 4)

      trying to swim from ice floes to shore. Due to ice melting it's further than they have capacity to swim.
      •  Poor ice = poor hunting = poor reproduction... (4.00 / 4)

        With the warmer temperatures, the timing, extent, and quality of the ice are all changing. During times important for reproduction, the bears rely on catching seals through the ice by hanging out at the seals' breathing holes in the ice. Without the proper ice conditions, the bears are having a harder time catching seals, and for the most part, don't seem to be able to switch to other foods and hunting strategies. So, the females have less body fat (energy reserves) and have less reproductive success. Once their body weight is too low, their reproduction will crash. And that's expected within a time where most of us will see it...

        Of course, there will still be zoos! And books with pictures of polar bears! And those old nature movies showing big game hunters bagging giant polar bears! And Coca-Cola holiday commercials featuring cute polar bear families!

  •  Excellent diary. (4.00 / 2)

    Take on the right-wing misinformation at EVERY chance you have.  Bravo!

    All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell

    by Five of Diamonds on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:09:43 PM PDT

    •  airplanes are a great place! (4.00 / 2)

      Just make sure you've got your facts handy. Relying on memory can be rough - but if you've got 3 1/2 hrs and a captive audience, a magazine, newspaper, or laptop, can be invaluable.

      I got an AFA lawyer to watch some Bush-bashing Bill Maher and SNL on a plane :)

  •  Yep (4.00 / 4)

    Being someone who has argued Evolution vs Creationism for a while - the way they argue against Global Warming is almost identical.
  •  Yep (4.00 / 2)

    Yep. It's the same stuff they've done for a while against Evolution. "Not all scientists agree on Evolution." It's this really weird argument where they lose all specific examples and just make a bland and annoying statement.
  •  Hey, this is excellent! (4.00 / 2)

    Really well put together diary.

    My future handy-dandy one stop reference for the environmentally ignorant hordes that surround me at the office.  

    "I think tobacco industry scientists still won't admit that smoking causes cancer."

    Man, I'm gonna get some milage on that one!

  •  you know (4.00 / 3)

    I was considering taking the fat check I got from my parents and giving it all to a carbon neutral organization. I think I might do that for real. I'm too old to be getting ridiculously large checks from parents and I think I make more at my job than my mom makes at hers when you include the bonuses and things. Ok maybe not more but you get it.

    If anyone wants to do the calculations for carbon neutral or give $ to plant trees - I've got links on my website (there's a "Links" page on there)

  •  Yes, let's recommend the (4.00 / 2)

    heck out of this, folks.
  •  What kills me is the folks who decry... (4.00 / 2)

    ...the potential impacts of global warming -- or, even, that global warming actually exists -- are so proudly and profundly ignorant about the subject.

    "Scientists disagree," they state firmly. "Which scientists?" you ask. Well, some of them, they respond, vaguely. I've never had a single opponent of controlling greenhouse emissions to be able to tell me who, when, what scientist disagrees with the vast body of science on the subject.

    "This has happened before," emphatically. "When?" Well, they haven't been keeping records very long, they say, peevishly. Not once have I ever met anybody who could even name previous historical periods or ages, let alone discuss them intelligently.

    On this, like so many other subjects these days, I find myself wishing that, like the "Easy Button" of the commercial, there was an "IQ Button" that I could tap to get a warning of what I'm about to face.

    "Oh, TV. Is there anything you can't do?" -- Homer Simpson

    by Melody Townsel on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:20:38 PM PDT

    •  I've found that the same people (4.00 / 5)

      Who claim that there's no global warming, also claim that Bush had the right to wiretap civilians, that there were WMD's in Iraq, Saddam caused 9/11, and that the moon is made of green cheese.  Mainly, they're full of shit.

      And I have to wonder - are these people insane?  Do they not care what's going on?  Or do they really believe what they're saying?  I'm not sure which answer would be better for my sanity.

      "I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they kill, there would be no more wars." - Abbie Hoffman

      by Jensequitur on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:29:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's why I memorize facts (none / 1)

      I wouldn't call it IQ, myself -- I meet really smart people who just have no clue, because they haven't been informed.  

      I'm not normally a factoid trivia buff.  But in this case, it seems like the facts are SO intense that if you can present them in a way that has credibility, and that doesn't turn people off, it may help.

      I've been amazed to learn the extent to which we're really changing the planet.

      And it's amazing that the media barely discusses some of these things.  Not that Kossacks didn't already know that!  ;)  

      •  The only problem with facts (4.00 / 2)

        is that they bounce off of people's minds when there isn't a frame to fit the facts.  This is why the "average American voter" doesn't remember-- or care about the facts Dems have been spitting out for years.  Once you know how to frame your argument, the facts will help, and your position on the issues will seem like common sense.  I did this and it worked on my Kool-aid drinking Republican family. Mostly.

        btw: Great idea about the plane!  You have a very captive audience, and as long as it's a conversation instead of an argument (I too often give into that temptation) you have a great opportunity to help the cause.  Thanks for this!

  •  Mainly our discussions (4.00 / 2)

    about the environment revolved around how &%$#@! hot it's getting in Texas.  Have you heard about the prairie fires in the D/FW area and Oklahoma?  That's where I am.  We're short by 15" of rain this year.  My yard may never recover.

    I've been thinking about planting desert plants in my yard.  Something that doesn't require as much water - St. Augustine is so water-thirsty that to keep the yard green takes about $200 a month.  No thanks.  I'd love some native grasses - heck, maybe something that doesn't need mowing.

    "I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they kill, there would be no more wars." - Abbie Hoffman

    by Jensequitur on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:26:56 PM PDT

    •  Do plant desert plants in your yard! (none / 1)

      Or best, native plants for your conditions.

      My pet peeve: Is there any more wasteful uses for water than AZ golf courses? If the the people who built them actually had to pay what the water really costs would they be there?

      fact does not require fiction for balance

      by mollyd on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:55:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Alaskan's perspective (none / 1)

    Hey, the guy probably just figures that his oceanfront property in Bristol Bay will be worth a lot more when people are flocking there for the tropical beach experience.
  •  So should Europe prepare for heat or Ice Age? (4.00 / 2)

    If the Atlantic conveyor is shutting down, Europe and the Northern US need to prepare for an Ice Age. It's happened in the past that a 10-30 year span is sometimes all it takes to switch. See "A Brain for all Seasons".
    •  probably (none / 1)

      hotter summers AND colder winters.. for a while.

      fact does not require fiction for balance

      by mollyd on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:56:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (none / 0)

        Considering that the trend of ever warmer European winters coincides with the flow-reduction trend of the Gulf Stream, that doesn't actually follow in quite so straightforward a manner. I'm somewhat skeptical regarding the European winter freeze scenarios being proposed.

        Whilst the mechanism for slowing down the gulf stream is theoretically understood, no one is suggesting that ocean heat-exchange currents are simply going to stop, with all the heat being trapped in the tropics; water remains a very efficient medium for conducting heat across temperature gradients. It's quite possible that the winter warming trend will just stabilize at the point it has currently reached - warmer air temperatures, more warm Atlantic low pressure systems ( one of the alternate heat exchange mechanisms ) compensate for the reduction in the warm water current off the West coast of the British Isles.

        •  quite possibly (none / 0)

          In actual fact while we theorize about the possibility for an ice age cause by the fresh water pouring in to the oceans from melting glaciers. An actual trend toward an ice age will begin when glaciers in the northern climes start growing rather than melting.

          The whole climate change thing is so complex that I have no doubt the wingers will claim it must be a hands-on operation by their invisable old man in the sky.

          fact does not require fiction for balance

          by mollyd on Sat Dec 31, 2005 at 09:06:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Myth #1 FIshbowl Earth (4.00 / 4)

    A couple to try:

    We've only been here a short time as a species.  No doubt the earth will survive climate change, it's us I'm worried about.

    The earth is a giant fishbowl.  We've got nowhere else to go.  If we don't keep it clean, it'll kill us.

    Climate change is historically what has killed off most ancient civilizations.  If we ignore history we are doomed to repeat it.

    For those so inclined:

    God created all the animals.  Who are you to wipe them out?  Cain?

  •  Tip Jar (4.00 / 9)

    I'm leaving town for a couple days, so I'll have to read all the rest of your comments when I get back!    Wish I could stay. :)

    Any other thoughts on making something huge and hard to comprehend, like global warming or species extinction, into common knowledge?

  •  Renewable Gas (none / 0)

    I actually had someone tell me that he had read an article saying that petroleum was, an all reallity, a renewable source.  He wasn't just saying that fossil fuels produce over billions of years.  No, he was saying that it was renewable like trees.  Of course, he couldn't site a source for this amazing piece of info.

    Now, happily, a nameless civilian. (Actually, my name is Robby)

    by Nameless Soldier on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:45:38 PM PDT

    •  I've been reading about this (none / 0)

      I think it's probably junk, but it's interesting.  Russia seems to have done some significant research on it.

      I don't have a specific link but you can find quite a few by searching for 'inorganic oil'.

      The basic concept is that oil is created by pressure on carbon deep within the earths crust and seeps upward.  Key claims are that some oil-wells are refilling (could be from nearby pools) and that oil is routinely found deeper than fossils.  (Not so sure about that.)

    •  My Wife Makes Me Leave The Room (none / 1)

      when I've got too much.    8^)

      I'm aware there was some differing theories on how oil deposites are created, but the renewable resource one is about as valid as the greenhouse gas isn't causing global warming.

      There is also little doubt that greenhouse gases from burning oil will end up costing more later than we can afford.

      And that's the Republican thing really - I don't give a flying f&*k about what it screws up later, I want it now!

    •  Google "abiotic oil" for more info n/t (none / 0)

  •  Here's how I counter (4.00 / 2)

    the "we're just changing the planet" argument:

    Yes, just like other animals, we alter our environment. Beavers build dams, we build factories. But we differ from animals in two key ways:

    *the size of the impact of our environmental "modifications"
    *our ability to foresee those impacts

    Beavers build dams because of instinct. They don't have the ability to reason the way we do, to think about the possible outcomes of a multitude of possible actions. (When's the last time you saw a beaver play chess? They may do it, but they're probably not very good.)

    Humans, on the other hand, are blessed with enormous brains (and yes, it goes without saying that not all of us actually use them). These tremendous brains give us the ability to imagine the future, examine the possible consequence of actions before taking them, and reason out the best course of actions. These tremendous brains also provide us the wherewithal to modify our environment in ways that the beavers can only dream of -- the aforementioned factory, or thousands of factories, or thousands of factories producing millions of cars.

    Thus, our brains are both a blessing and a curse. They let us do amazing things -- and they burden us with the responsiblity to act with foresight and consideration. Even if it's not consideration for others, only for our own asses on our one and only humanly habitable planet.

    The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you.

    by skeptigal on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 03:46:37 PM PDT

  •  I'm confused (none / 1)

    I find it hard to be sure what data to trust and what to believe.  As I see it, there are three steps.

    1. The earth is warming up
    2. Human activities are causing/amplifying this
    3. The Kyoto accord will prevent this

    #1 I'm down with

    I'm pretty well convinced that there is a warming trend going on.  Global temperatures seem to be slightly higher, ice caps receeding, etc.

    #2 I'm not as sure about

    I am well aware that the earth's temperature is not a constant.  We have had mini-ice ages etc in the last thousand years.  The unique sound of a Stradavarious may well be due to the climate at the time the wood grew.  There are conflicting descriptions of how the gasses will affect the atmosphere.  We are relying a lot on computer models and, frankly, they are just implimentations of the modeler's theories.  We don't know enough about the system to predict next year's weather, how reliable are the predictions for 2100?

    #3 I really doubt.  Kyoto puts the emphasis on the developed countries, particularly the U.S. The biggest threat to the future is the developing nations who will add multiples of the current load.  The U.S. and other developed countries are likely not to add to the load and are, in various ways, decreasing thier share.  The biggest player will be China -- who agrees with the accord -- that their competition should have thier overhead increased but not them.  Without the developing countries restrained from rapid growth, it really doesn't matter what the developed ones do -- greenhouse gasses will greatly increase.

    •  As for #2, (4.00 / 2)

      that argument against the models hasn't changed since the 70s, but the models have changed immeasurably and are supported by vast amounts of new data which accumulates more and more rapidly.  The models are tested against known data sets (ice cores for example).  As for weather vs. long term climate predictions, you don't have to plot the precise coordinates, height and mass of every tree to know you're looking at a forest.

      As for #3, you're right.  Kyoto is too little too late.  

    •  predicting next year's weather (none / 1)

      Go to www.weatherplanner.com to do exactly that. It is the short term variations that are hard to predict, not the long term ones. What they are doing appears to be more sophisticated than just the average weather on a particular date. They look at long term patterns. And there really are long term patterns. I can tell you from person experience that on halloween in DC, it didn't rain for something like 20 years straight, then it rained for something like 7 years straight, and now it tends to rain before halloween but not on it.

      --
      -6.25, -6.36 Worst. President. Dictator. Ever.

      by whitis on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 09:07:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Doubters step out for a butt (4.00 / 3)

    Timely diary, Salvia, as Hurrican Zeta (!!!) is swirling in the Atlantic.  

    There is a ghoulish handful of scientists, mostly funded by fossil fuel interests, who still tow the company line, with help from Senator Inhofe (R.) from Oklahoma, who commented on the Senate floor in January that "climate change is the greatest hoax ever played on America."    

    But just to spice up your little joke about tobacco science at the end of your diary, you'll be tickled to know that Richard Lindzen, an MIT meteorologist and outspoken doubter, is a Bush administration adviser on climate change, AND a smoker who has also questioned the evidence linking smoking and lung cancer.  

    All I can say is getting into an argument about whether or not it's really happening and whether greenhouse gases are to blame is a waste of our time and energy.  We need to instead be looking at strategies for mitigation and sadly, adaptation.
     

  •  Air (4.00 / 2)

    is composed of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, argon and other trace gasses in a certain percentage.  If CO2 is up that means oxygen must be down.
    That's it brain death due to oxygen starvation.
    •  Percentages can be confusing (none / 0)

      CO2 is a trace component of the atmosphere.

      Nitrogen                 N2       78.08%
      Oxygen                 O2        20.95%
      ~Water                 H2O      0 to 4%
      Argon                    Ar        0.93%
      ~Carbon Dioxide    CO2      0.0360%
      Neon                     Ne        0.0018%
      Helium                   He       0.0005%
      ~Methane              CH4      0.00017%
      Hydrogen               H2       0.00005%
      ~Nitrous Oxide        N2O    0.00003%
      ~Ozone                 O3       0.000004%

      (items with a tilde(~) are variable


      Source: physicalgeography.net

      From the above, CO2 could increase by 300% and still be barely more than 1/10 of 1% of the atmosphere.  Increase CO@ by 27% from the reported number, and you get 0.04572%.  Affects the climate, but not much impact on the level of O2 in the atmosphere.  Perhaps a little lower, because presumably some of the CO2 ties up a little O2.  But much smaller variation than changes in altitude (relative to our respiratory functioning...)

      John McCain voted against health care for kids.

      by Land of Enchantment on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 05:20:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The "scientists" that disagree... (4.00 / 2)

    are the ones who are funded by ExxonMobil and their ilk, as I pointed out here.

    A good website to go to is ExxonSecrets with a good interactive feature.

    So if you're in a conversation and someone actually brings up one of these biased sources, you can tell them the connections between the oil industry/ultra-conservative think tanks.

    My fear is not that people will stop talking about climate change. My fear is that they will talk us to Kingdom Come. - George Monbiot

    by Brudaimonia on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 04:10:23 PM PDT

  •  There Is NO Scientific 'Other Side' (4.00 / 4)

    While there are a few pet scientists who go on TV for the oil companies, it's important to understand that there is no scientific controversy.  And in fact, there hasn't been one since at least the early 1990s.  

    Over a year ago, Naomi Oreskes reported as much n Science magazine.  She analyzed "928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords 'climate change'."  She found:

    The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.
    Case closed.

    Complete article: "BEYOND THE IVORY TOWER: The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change"

  •  Hurricanes Katrina & Rita (none / 1)

    are another consequence of global warming. Hurricanes' destructive strength is directly fueled by warmer late-summer ocean temperatures. A body of water such as the Gulf of Mexico getting a fraction of a degree hotter means fiercer hurricanes, as we saw in 2005 and will continue to see.

    Reality - Humanity - Sustainability

    by Em on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 04:23:54 PM PDT

  •  The point they all miss.... (none / 1)

    Most of the scenarios on global warming for the US posit a shift northward of the climactic regions.  The line I've heard most often is, so what? what's so bad if the entire southern half of the country is more like Florida?

    What nobody thinks about is that if the climate bands shift, so does the "wheat belt" and "corn belt" and there goes our food self-sufficency.  We've never in our history had to import food to feed ourselves but if our "breadbasket" migrates outside our borders, all that will change.  If you remember the latter stages of the Cold War and the way we were able to dominate the Soviets when their wheat harvests failed, you get the idea of where we're headed.

    Funny, the right-wingnuts who claim they're all about National Security never figured this one out.

    And I haven't even started on the new pest and disease problems we will be facing in the new warmer climate.

  •  What your diary does not address, and (4.00 / 2)

    this is important: how much of Global Warming is caused by man?

    I have had more than a few discussions with those that admit Global Warming is happening, but will cite stats to show that it is a natural cycle, and that man plays no role in it. I am not convinced myself as to the degree of which man made causes exacerbate it.

    But that in no way condones the continued pace of pollution of our atmosphere, or our wasting of limited energy supplies.

    This is what we need to address.

    •  Good point, (4.00 / 2)

       
       Over geological time the Earth has been in many strange conditions, from our point of view. Very often warmer than we have ever seen with much more ocean and only 1 or sometimes 2 land masses. Life has taken repeated, Sometimes huge hits, and a majority of species die.
      The (supposed) difference here is that the agent is conscious and will alter behavior out of self interest, if nothing else.
      I don't see much of that happening yet!      
    •  Cycles, trends, cycling trends, trending cycles (none / 0)

      I wrote a diary earlier today which addresses some questions re: cycles.  I think the data show the presence of "escalating" cycles.  Keeping in mind that this trend correlates with escalating CO2, the argument gets stronger.

      The question that needs to be addressed is:  What are the consequences of being wrong - on either side of the question?  (AKA Type A and Type B errors.)

      One is:  What happens if there is human-generated global warming, but we don't recognize it/don't do anything to prevent it?  The answer here is:  Big trouble.  

      • Preventable rises in sea level
      • Disruptions of climate & weather
      • Economic havoc
      • Damage to ecosystems, spike in extinctions
      • Impacts on fisheries, agriculture, and epidemiology
      • More frequent, intense and destructive tropical storms.  
      • Unknown synergistic effects from combinations of above.

      The other is:  What if we mistakenly think global climate change is entirely "natural", but take measures to reduce greenhouse gases anyhow?  The answer here is:  Most greenhouse gas comes from fossil fuel, which also has enormous geopolitical and economic problems associated with it.  In other words, these actions (primarily developing alternative/renewable energy sources) will contribute to solution of other problems as well.  Yeah, there's associated costs.  But the 10s (100s?) of billions going for post-Katrina emergency expenses would go a long ways towards getting solar (active & passive), wind, geothermal, conservation & etc. energy sources off the ground, and greatly reducing the strategic prominence of the Middle East.  There are massive costs in "securing" oil supplies, and those problems will only escalate in coming decades, as global demand for oil increases.  (Kuwaitis have, sensibly, been working on solar desalinization of sea water for decades...)

      So, then, if there's uncertainty, and risks either way, the question becomes:  Which kind of risk makes more sense to take?  Because the assumption that there's risks & costs associated with taking precautionary measures, but none associated with "staying the course", isn't particularly defensible.  All the moreso so considering the few Atlantic hurricane seasons.

      Given that the evidence for human-caused changes is strong, I'd argue that we're smack in the middle of the first case at present.  On a collision course with a self-induced catastrophic destiny.  I'm trained in science, somewhat of a data geek, and have been following this problem for nearly 20 years now.

      John McCain voted against health care for kids.

      by Land of Enchantment on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 09:11:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Recommended: Bill McKibben in NYRB (none / 1)

    Worth reading: recent review by Bill McKibben in the New York Review of Books of Mark Bowen's new book Thin Ice, which McKibben calls "one of the best books yet published on climate change".
  •  If you are concerned about global warming (none / 1)

    you should avoid the use of airplanes.

    Carbon dioxide released eight miles up will linger for a very long time.

    If Europeans are really serious about global warming, they should shut down Airbus and buy out Boeing and its employees.

  •  Convincing relatives (none / 1)

    I've been having an ongoing 'discussion' with my uncle. My uncle who claims to be a Libertarian but reads and believes Stossel and, here's the nub, Crichton. So, I was 'forced' to read Crichton's godawful book, State of Fear, in which the author's heros claim to be open-minded skeptics, but come across as condescending idiotic morons. Still, my uncle found a number of Crichton's points to be persuasive.
    Among other things, my uncle claims that he is just looking for peer-reviewed studies. As opposed to every scientific study published in the last 20 years that agrees with the concept of Global warming, presumably, was my response. I pointed him towards various websites, IPCC, etc. But, apparently, he's not interested in reading anything long and not written for rightwing children. He has taken out Crichton's appendix and emailed it to me and wants me to respond point by bloody point.
    Pisses me off. Obviously.
    But, other than that, he's a sweet harmless old guy ...

    Btw, I love the website, Real Climate

    Great Diary.

    •  I feel your pain jonathan (4.00 / 3)

      my family is full of hard-line Right wingers.  Sadly for you uncle (sad for us, really, but convenient for him) I doubt that there are peer reviewed articles in reputable scientific journals that are brief, and to the point to the layman's reading.  Maybe the abstracts...

      As to crapton's "appendix" don't take the bait.  The act of arguing with crichton lends the illusion of credibility to him (sorta like ID).  Instead, take the time to read Don't Think of an Elephant if you haven't already, and try reframing the debate in a way that makes your stance seem like common sense.

  •  I run into this too... (4.00 / 2)


    I run into people who generally vote Democratic that don't take the problem terribly seriously.  They might spend a few bucks for a save-the-whales sticker for their car or something, but try and tell them that they need to make changes in their lifestyle and they tell you to go to hell.

    The deniers of global warming are a different bunch entirely.  I suspect the origin of the global warming deniers is that Limpballs et. al. tells them that it is bunk, and that they would rather eat gravel than admit that the environmentalists were right about anything.  I guess they figure that if they deny it long enough that it can be made to be true.

    This does bring me to the point of the scientific illiteracy that a large segment of the population seems to be infected with.  People simply don't understand how science works.  They see it as some sort of orthodoxy where some sort of secret cabal decides what the 'truth' is - people who take this view can easily be convinced that all they need to  do is to simply ignore the scientists and make up their own reality.

    My own take is that companies like ExxonMobil will stonewall as long as they can.  Given the size of the problem, it could take another 10-20 years before concensus is reached that we need to act.  By then of course it is far too late.

    My only sense of optimism is that peak oil will force humanity to reduce the amount of oil being burned.  The question then is what other noxious practice will we take up to try and replace oil - at the moment I don't see any magic bullet that can allow humanity to continue on with life as usual.

    •  Magic Bullet (none / 0)

      Fusion. We know its possible. It works in thermonuclear weapons and in... ummmm... the Sun. People keep talking about the "Hydrogen Economy" and fuel cells and such. These are pretty much non-starters without fusion. The world has no "hydrogen wells". Presently, it takes more carbon and CO2 producing energy to produce hydrogen than is economically sound.

      We've a long way to go before we have economical fusion power generation (or hydrogen generation). The one thing that could get us reliably closer? MONEY! The 200+ billion the USA has spent in Iraq could have done wonders.

      When Bush was groping for a Kennedy-style project, he came up with going back to the moon, and then to Mars.

      What we need is for America to accept a goal of economical fusion energy by 2025 and spend 100 billion a year torward that goal. There is a magic bullet!

      It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

      by Fishgrease on Sat Dec 31, 2005 at 03:12:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The joke is... (none / 0)


        that we already have a working fusion reactor, and it is right where we want it - 93 million miles away.

        It is possible that fusion reactors here on Earth could become viable, but as you point out that is 20 years out (at least).  When I was in grad school 20 years ago, I had a roommate who worked on fusion reactors - I don't recall what the timeline back then looked like, but these dates tend to slip a lot and my point really is that until we get closer we cannot depend upon it coming online in time to help with any of this.

        My roommate had the misfortune of working on magnetic mirrors for plasma confinement - right about the time he finished his dissertation, it was decided that tokomaks were the way to go, and all funding for magnetic mirrors was killed.  Sometimes life can really suck...

        We use energy in many forms for many purposes.  For the purposes of generating electricity, things like solar and wind can go a long ways to help replace fossil fuels.  For that matter wind power is economically competetive with other forms of power right now.  It isn't perfect, but it can play a big role.

        The harder problem is how to deal with transportation though.  As you point out, unless you have cheap hydrogen, fuel cells don't make much sense.  My view is that the fuel cell work is funded by the fossil fuel industry as the best way to make hydrogen right now is from coal and natural gas.

        Bush's Kennedy style project doesn't seem to be going anywhere at all actually.  Just as well - trips to the Moon and Mars seem like a waste of time and energy.  Those little robots that we send to Mars seem to do a fine job of exploration.

        It may well be that electric cars with batteries of some form could be of more use in the intermediate term as it would be easier to convert grid electricity to transportation.  

        There are some who argue that the cities that we have developed with suburbs, strip malls and traffic jams aren't really worth preserving.  In other words, the problem of replacing fossil fuels can be made easier by restructuring society so that people live closer to their places of work and in the end use less energy.  If you try and force someone to make changes like this in their lives you will get incredible pushback, but if gasoline prices eventually go to 5$ or 10$/gallon, people would make these changes on their own in order to keep their household budgets under control.

  •  Two issues (none / 1)

    I think there are two issues at play here.

    One is how to talk to open-minded but ignorant (not a demeaning term) and skeptical people about GW.  The approaches outlined in this diary and some of the above replies seem to address those people very well.

    The other is how to address the willfully ignorant, the wingnuts who think all scientists are untrustworthy, all governments are too stupid to wipe their own ass, and any form of international cooperation is Evil.

    That second group is problematic, simply because there are so many such specimens around.  I think that you have to find a much more visceral way to get the point across to them.  E.g. if they ask why we should make all these expensive changes to how we do things on the chance that it might be a good idea, tell them that you'd like to play Russian roulette with them, but only if you never have you put the gun to your head, but you can bet with them on their turns at the trigger.  Then tell them that what we're doing with the entire planet is like playing Russian roulette with 5 bullet and only one empty chamber.

    Yes, it's crude and bordering on obnoxious, but I think it's the only way to break through to such people.

    •  Apocalyptic religious beliefs... (none / 1)

      ...are a real problem with this latter group.  If you believe that the Rapture is just around the corner, what does it matter what happens in the meantime on this world?  Armageddon's just a welcome harbinger along the way.

      Beats me how to counter that kind of thinking.  Or the kind that figures money can protect them from anything.  Of some interest:  Dubya's "ranch" (= country estate) house is pretty thoroughly equipped with passive solar and other alternative energy measures.

      John McCain voted against health care for kids.

      by Land of Enchantment on Fri Dec 30, 2005 at 09:48:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My Holiday Discussion: (none / 1)