Daily Kos

Defending Dean

Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 07:49:29 AM PDT

So I get up having coffee and am reading an article on MSNBC web page in which Rep. Jim Marshall (D-Ga.) is saying  ""Dean's take on Iraq makes even less sense than the scream in Iowa: Both are uninformed and unhelpful."

Well I was disturbed that Mr.Marshall  is so uninformed and  that he is still ignorant of the truth about how the networks manipulated the audio to filter out the backround cheering and screaming, thus making the governor look like a screaming maniac. Needless to say I immediately called Mr.Marshalls DC office to inform them of the facts and urge them to quit perpetuating a lie.
So I am not above defending the governor when he deserves defending. And it makes me crazy with dems still attacking their own.


That being said, I do think Dean's recent comment about the US not being able to win the war in Iraq was a stupid thing for him to say. We could argue all day long on the veracity of the satement, but thats not really what I'm looking at. I'm looking at the potential political damage. And make no mistake, most Americans do not want to hear that we cannot be victorious.  Despite any evidence to the contrary many, many people still believe we can do anything, that we are the most powerful and the most righteous nation on earth. And for the governor to come out and basically tell them  that their delusional, well one can see how that would be offensive to them.

I always liked Dean, his energy, and enthusiasm were inspiring and infectious, however he is in a different role now, and I would suggest he be fitted with a filter placed between his brain and his mouth. There are bigger fish to fry, but once again we are left expending energy defending Dean, as was the case throughout his primary run.  

There are so many more messages Dean could be sending, he should be talking about the culture of corruption around Delay and Frist et al, he should be developing messages about the dangerous influence of the extreme religious right wingnuts, he should be screaming about the administration environmental record, about their plan to sell off more federal land to developers, and on and on, jesus!! we have a whole arsenal to use against this administration and congress, and no one up their with enough brains to develop a message.

We need to connect with the voters , not alienate them with statements, no matter their veracity, that offend them. Their are a million statements Dean could make about Iraq  that can serve to reenforce the truth that Iraq was a huge mistake, that this administration and congress have failed us miserably, and that it is again time for a change.  

  And finally because its just my nature, I must be a little snarky here and suggest that perhaps the governor is just trying to raise some money by putting himself at the center of controversy again. What the hey, it worked in the primaries. Problem is, we dont really need money, we need the hearts and minds of the voters.

Tags: Howard Dean, scream, Jim Marshall (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 41 comments

  •  Ah yes, more noise. (none / 0)

    nt

    Hand me down my walking cane, hand me down my hat...

    by Cheez Whiz on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 07:51:05 AM PDT

  •  Im's so sceerd, sceerd I say (4.00 / 4)

    of how the american people will react to Dean agreeing with them.  60 percent think we can't win that was and need to get out.  Now how in heaven's name are we going to get past the horrible mistake Dean made in agreeing and saying what they don't have the platform to say?
  •  Enough already (none / 1)

    Thanks for contacting Rep. Marshall.  But I'm getting tired of people running away from this.

    The fact is Iraq will probably end like Vietnam or even Korea.  There will be no clear 'win' for anybody.

    And to suggest that Howard is ginning up a controversy just to raise some cash is disingenuous.  It's the Republicans who are ginning up the controversy.

    Liberal: "I still think it's a respectable word. Its root is "liber," the Latin word for "free," and isn't that what we are all about?"--Mary McGrory

    by mini mum on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:00:28 AM PDT

  •  BTW, clever how you title this diary (4.00 / 3)

    Defending Dean.  

    Dean is talking about the political corruption surrounding Delay.  Have you been to the DNC website lately?

    Dean is doing just fine and I severly doubt voters are offended by the truth.  I know I am offended on a daily basis by lies and pandering.  One of the reasons I like Dean is because he doesn't pull that partronizing bullshit.

    •  Here Here (none / 1)

      Why people get sucked into this trap of being horrified about "how" Dean tells the truth instead of applauding the fact that there is a Democrat who has the guts to tell the truth is beyond me.

      FOX puts "Democrats" on all day long who are just fine to be used by demonizing Howard as long as they can promote their book. These are the same "moderates" who think we need to tip toe around the Republican agenda so maybe we can get a few wins. Bull. I say bull.

      And you (diarist) think Russ Finegold is doing just fine by speaking in a more...delicate tone? Why can't Dean be more like him?

      If it wasn't for Howard Dean standing up in the first place, all these war profiteering Democrats would be switching there parties to Republican for fear of public flogging or stoning.

      Please. Enough with the "don't tell the truth Howard unless you say it so nobody hears."

      Wake up America!

      Directing the people-powered film: "Dean and Me"

      by deantv on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:13:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So you are saying (none / 0)

    we connect with the voters by doing what the Republicans are doing... ignore the truth, tell them what they want to hear, in effect, lie to them?  And that makes us better than the Republicans?  Perhaps I am missing something here.  The Iraq war is what is bankrupting the country, allowing the culture of corruption to exist, and continuing the right wings hold on the nuts of the country.  If we do not speak the truth and break the hold we might as well give up.  Dean is right to speak the truth loudly and constantly.  It is the only way Americans will be forced to see the light.  I am sorry the cracker in Georgia is doing the Republicans work for them.  (If he will lay off Dean, I will lay off him.)

    Censure my ASS! but impeach Bush!

    by Yankeluh on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:07:53 AM PDT

    •  No, of course not (none / 1)

      Dean make on big gaffe by saying "the idea that we're going to win in Iraq is just plan wrong". Take out that one sentence and he gave a pretty good interview.

      However, the one sentence is going to be used against us again and again. It was a HUGE mistake. The statement sounds defeatist and hopelessly pessimistic. It will be spun as "treasonous" and "unpatriotic".

      Dean can't keep making these mistakes if we want to win in 2006. I know people don't want to hear this, but it's true.

      •  Oh Sure (none / 1)

        Don't tell the truth Howard unless you say it so loud that nobody can hear you! Then we'll win an election because you will not hand the opposition an unpatriotic sound bite.

        Sure, tell the people what they want to hear. We can win in Iraq! (and if we hold enough Republican hands they may let us win an election or two).

        Directing the people-powered film: "Dean and Me"

        by deantv on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:17:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  its so obvious (none / 1)

          I almost hate to say it.

          Remind me again, Just how well  this strategy worked for Dean in his his failed presidential primary bid???

          •  He didn't win the nomination... (4.00 / 2)

            But he paved the way for our "moderate" pals to stick their fingers in the air to see which way the wind blows.

            He never would have laid down and been flogged like Kerry did.

            Howard Dean won by losing...he was such a threat he had everybody, including his own party, gunning for him.

            Directing the people-powered film: "Dean and Me"

            by deantv on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:34:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  LOL (none / 0)

            How well did other strategies work for other candidates?  Kerry lost because he wasn't more like Dean.

            Besides we know why Dean lost the race for nominee and the K Street crowd/DLC had everything to do with it.

            But Dean is having the last laugh and will win the war even as he lost a few battles along the way.  The party is going to reform itself and start representing real americans again.... much as the professional DC insider blogging corp might not like it.

        •  deantv (none / 0)

          You're overreacting and missing the point. Take a step back and use some objectivity.

          Other Democrats (like Russ Feingold) have managed to criticize the Iraq policy very effectively without a "foot in mouth" moment. Why can't Dean?

      •  A gaffe? Nonsense (none / 0)

        How are people going to start knowing the truth if they never hear it?
        Most people know we can't win in Iraq.  Only Iraqis can solve their prolbems and that will happen a lot quicker with us gone.
        People are going to be relieved when someone makes it okay to say what they already know.
    •  wrong (none / 0)

      I never say anything about lying. Theres a way to get the truth out and connect with the voters, without alienating a certain percentage.

      I live in CO, and over a period of time I have managed to sway 2 Bush supporters to the Dem side. I didnt do it by attacking their core beliefs, I did it by appaealing to things they hold dear, and showing them how this administration is doing severe damage to those things.

      And besides just how do you determine what is true, what is possible?

  •  Let the Republicans spin (none / 0)

    Let the Republicans spin.  In the end they will get less credibility because they know Dean is right.

    My problem is with Democrats who continue to perpetuate a lie than using this as an opportunity to highlight what we need to do to stop further deaths and ensure stability in the Middle East.

    Fact check Obama spins on Hillary http://facts.hillaryhub.com/

    by timber on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:22:38 AM PDT

  •  How can you presume to know (none / 1)

    what most people want or don't want to hear?

    I don't know about anyone else.  I do know that even if the truth doesn't feel good, that's what I want to hear.


    The religious fanatics didn't buy the republican party because it was virtuous, they bought it because it was for sale

    by nupstateny on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:25:12 AM PDT

    •  well (none / 0)

      perhaps you need to get out more if you really dont know  about anyone else.

      I presume nothing. But I do know and meet many people in my line of work, and engage in political debate quite often.

      And your truth is just that: "your truth". Other peoples truth may be quite different, yet just as valid.

  •  What is "Winning"? (none / 1)

    Since Bush can't articulate it.  What is winning?  We have already lost over 2,000 soldiers.  I don't think we have or will win anything.

    IMHO, Dr. Dean is just telling the truth like he always does.  The DCCC and the others just can't deal with it.  I saw the same thing during Vietnam.  Everybody just continues to lie or stay silent because they are ashamed that they went along with the lie in the first place.  It is OK to say that one was wrong.  We WERE lied to people.  So we (thanks Dr. Dean) have to continue to tell the truth no matter how many times the liers continue to try to spin it.

    Finally, talk about framing --  it's not about Dean, it's about an unnecessary war where our heros in uniform are being killed everyday.  It is the same thing everyday for the Republicans... don't look at the war, don't look at Katrina, don't look at the deficit.  Look at that mean Dr. Dean.  He says bad things.  I really think that people are starting to catch on to Rove's (Fox, etc.) approach.  At least I hope they are.  Now if our gutless Congress-persons (except for heros like John Murtha) will get on board we can fix this mess.

  •  asdf (none / 1)

    Well according to some poll on CNN 62% of Americans think the war is unwinnable.  As usual Dean is right.  He has been right about everything so far.

    * 4076 * http://icasualties.org/oif/

    by BDA in VA on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:43:51 AM PDT

  •  I think you are wrong on a few levels here. (none / 1)

    First and foremost, Dean is doing exactly what he needs to be doing.  He is raising more money then any other chairman, yet as a party the Dems are LESS beholden to special interest than before.

    Second:  Speaking truth to power is always a good idea.  Don't you think if Kerry did a little more of it than dancing on the head of a pin he wouldn't have lost to the single worst (and now most unpopular) president in modern times?

    Third:  Dean's position is the perfect one to be saying those controversial things.  Despite what many of us think here, most Americans have never been to DailyKos, not know the Dean is currently the Head of the DNC.  Even if the conversation is about his comment, at least it gets them talking more about the futility if this war which brings me to...

    Fourth:  the problem is not with his statement, but Jim Marshall's and frankly, your reaction to it.  We shouldn't be apologizing for it, or analyzing it, or making excuses, we should be shouting it from the rooftops.  We should be reminding people that Bush said the exact same thing.  We should be be reminding everyone we know see or talk to that Bush is sending Americans to die for a lie, and fucked it up so badly that we are now in an unwinnable situation.

    Fifth:  Dean is doing all of those other things you suggest as well.

    just because I call you to task for shitting on Democrat y, does not mean I support y, or x or z. It only means you are an asshole.

    by ETinKC on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 08:47:34 AM PDT

  •  I preferred.... (none / 0)

    ....Rep Chet Edwards (D-TX) approach to Rep. Marshall's. He disagreed with Dean without taking the opportunity to bash Dean. So, it was more of a Ben Nelson approach than a Joe Lieberman approach. Edwards said that this just showed the diversity of opinion in the Democratic Party on the Iraq issue and left it at that.
  •  I'll say it again (none / 0)

    since my post was on a previous Dean thread and then it got removed. Sorry if it did get good exposure there. It was in reference to a debate as to whether Dean should be more "nuanced" in his remarks.

    I said: The target audience of Dean's outbursts are the blue collar straight-ahead guys who dominate locker room, break room, and barroom talk amongst their peers. They are a necessary element of the mix, and their conversion to an open disparagement of Bush's war policy as led by Dean and Murtha is vital.

    Look, Bush used intimidation and bluster and got those guys on board to go find an enemy. There's an old Southern expression: "Do something, even if it's wrong!"  The blue collar guy isn't into nuance; he has to act to fix the problem.

    Dean is the Wildman, an apt messenger of the harsh truth that WE CANNOT 'WIN' IN IRAQ.  You better believe that Joe Sixpak is listening. And not exactly jumping up to protest it. He knows it's true.

    Dean's also the court jester; you wouldn't elect him, but he alone can do a Moe-to-Curly slap on the prigs who lead the party.

    I say take him off the leash and stand back. It should be fun.
    Frightened, overly careful Mommy Dems should take note and learn something.

    "Know when to hold 'em, and when to fold 'em." Kennyboy Rogers

    by omfreebogart on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 09:45:29 AM PDT

    •  like i said before (none / 0)

      I say take him off the leash and stand back. It should be fun.
      Frightened, overly careful Mommy Dems should take note and learn something

      Right , because it worked so well for him in the primary.

  •  Domestic/Political Abuse (none / 0)

    Why do so many Democrats act like they are victims of Domestic violence? We shouldn't say that because they will beat us with it. We need to keep our heads down and maybe they will forget we are here. Whatever you do don't make them angry. Oh no, they heard us. Quick, into the corner with our hands over our heads and beg them not to beat us anymore. Tell them anything, agree with them, just make them stop beating us.

    A friend of mine went through a period of domestic violence and it was heart breaking to see. But I couldn't do anything until she decided to fight back and not allow him to control her anymore. When the abused stand up and stop the abuse sometimes it ends badly, but most of the time it ends well. She eventually said enough is enough and allowed her friends and family to help her.

    The Democratic Party reminds me of a DV victim. If you think about it makes kind of a sick sense. But we need to stop being an enabler. We need to fight back hard and we need to stop crouching in the corner begging for mercy while we get beaten. We shouldn't be telling people not to tell the truth because "they" might hear you. We shouldn't be smacking ourselves in the head for them hoping they won't beat us so hard if we do.

    If our The Democratic Party as a whole doesn't start fighting back 2006 might look a lot like 2002 and 2004.

  •  dear diary, this is not about dean! (none / 0)

    it is about kicking george's butt. so please stop kicking dean.

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