Daily Kos

My Republican Dad (You Heard Me Right Redux)

Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:12:33 PM PDT

So, I read this amazing diary entry and thought to myself, "Yes, this captures how bad things are," and then I thought (hopefully), "Maybe this is what would cue my father into how the Republicans work." I'd describe my father as a thoughtful, very well-educated person, willing to debate, but who also will use cheap rhetorical outs when he's losing an argument (as in "we need more evidence," "differences in opinion are what makes the world go round," "both parties cheat," etc.).  

I still am not ready to conclude, though, that my father would support the Republicans like he does if he understood what they were. So, I wrote this e-mail (below) to my father after reading Chris Bowers' diary. Beyond my personal situation--which I know many folks on Kos can relate to--this discussion is obviously part of a bigger question: How do we show people how damaging this administration is? Is there a point at which it doesn't make sense to try to convince people?

(continued below fold)

And two more related questions: Is the confrontational style I take in this e-mail--calling a spade a spade, not backing down--the stance that we as Democrats (and as people who love this country) are morally obliged to take? I think so. Have we been "derelict" in not confronting these attitudes long ago? Yes I say, though better late than never.

So I thought I'd "vet" this with Kos before firing it off. The e-mail follows:

Dad: I thought this [link to Chris Bowers' diary entry] did a good job of showing how immoral and shameless the Republican party has become

As I started reading this--on a Democratic-friendly web site--I got sick to my stomach, thought this guy was nuts, way beyond the line, an embarassment to Democrats. If I thought a Democrat was loathsome as I read him saying these things surely the same goes for a Republican? Of course this writer was merely showing what it sounds like when a Democrat describes Republicans as Republicans regularly describe Democrats. (Make sure you look at the links.)

I know that what I say is confrontational, but first think about (a) how the media would react if Democrats were as hateful and dishonest towards Republicans as Republicans are toward Democrats, (b) how it has become the norm--and thus not challenged--to describe Democrats as less than human, less than American, and (c) the fact that what I'm saying is a response to a constant, shameless, hypocritical, and baseless attack on who I am.

A common trick of bullies is to attack people unfairly and then call the people they first attacked "aggressive" when attention is drawn to the mendacity of the bullies' actions. Who's in the wrong here: The person who attacked or the person who makes a so-called scene by calling attention to the attack? Who should we as a society condemn? And who is being confrontational, the attacker or the one who exposes the attack?

You can say that this isn't every Republican, but if the leaders of the party had a problem with this behavior they could easily make them stop. And they don't--perhaps because the current Republican party is founded on an overwhelming willingness to sacrifice truth in the service of political gain.

You could say that both parties do things like this, but that's the same old same old, misleading rhetoric designed to hide the truth, like saying that someone who speeds is the same as someone who robs a bank, like saying that someone who is lazy at work one day is the same as someone who burns down the office.

How much moral space has to exist between the two parties before it becomes undeniable that one party is corrupt and the other merely (and inevitably) fallible? Does the fact that all of us will behave imperfectly make all wrong actions acceptable and equivalent? This is the logic you continually fall back on when you speak about politics. Are you comfortable with that?

How much should we sacrifice, how many bad decisions should we make based on arguments that by even the most generous standards are totally flawed? How can a political party do any good when it operates like this? What kind of world will such a political party create? Maybe one could support such a party if it benefitted them personally, but why should anyone respect such people?

I said that this is the strategy of bullies--and the only way to counter this behavior is to assert in no uncertain terms that this behavior does not befit the citizens of a democracy, that this behavior may be tolerable in children, but that in adults it deserves only scorn and pity.

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  •  Tip Jar (4.00 / 17)

    If you're feeling generous . . . thanks.

    A Republican running for office in '08? Like a rat getting on a sinking ship.

    by Natural Anthem on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:19:03 PM PDT

  •  Counting on inheriting much? (none / 1)

    Just kidding - I thought it was very well written, and I agree about being direct and plain-spoken.

    As a Democrat, I don't find it confrontational. I don't know how your dad will take it, but he doesn't sound quite as bad as the type of Republican who'd see this as un-American and unpatriotic.

    I have my fears, but they do not have me - Peter Gabriel

    by badger on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:34:52 PM PDT

    •  Inheriting (4.00 / 2)

      But isn't that part of the point, not literally, but in terms of calling people out--even those we love--for their actions and words? Isn't this just maturity: Actually taking responsibility for what we say and do?

      I talk to my father a couple of hours a week on the phone, visit him with my family, he's a model parent, we get along great and have a lot in common, which is part of the reason I find this attitude on the part of Republicans so disturbing.

      More specifically, I don't think mny father sees how aggressive his stance (and the stance of nearly every Republican) is, how hostile the Republican party is to a huge portion of the American public. This is just the way people talk and think and hence it goes on without notice or thought.

      So how does one throw a wrench in this process, because if we don't it will just keep getting worse?

      And I very mean what I wrote to be confrontational, though not hostile (is it hostile to note when others are hostile?). And we need to be able to confront for a healthy political culture without being hostile.

      Instead people take confrontation as an indictment of them individually, rather than the healthy exchange of ideas. You see how this leads to logic that goes something like this "I'm a Republican, if you challenge anything about Republicanism you're telling me that I'm a bad person, therefore you must be wrong when you talk about politics"?

      A Republican running for office in '08? Like a rat getting on a sinking ship.

      by Natural Anthem on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:54:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree (4.00 / 3)

        We don't learn to disagree civilly unless someone actually dares to disagree with us on occasion. We don't get respect unless we ask for it.

        I still have trouble calling your msg "confrontational" - I'd prefer "assertive" I think, but it's certainly not hostile. That was the connotation I was associating with confrontational.

        I have my fears, but they do not have me - Peter Gabriel

        by badger on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:19:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Confrontational v. Assertive (none / 0)

          Both words work. I chose "confrontational" to get to the idea that what I'm talking about is making an implicitly (though often not intentionally) hostile attitude explicit. So there is in fact a confrontation as opposed to a strong, assertive statement of one's views.

          Thanks.

          A Republican running for office in '08? Like a rat getting on a sinking ship.

          by Natural Anthem on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:32:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Send it (4.00 / 2)

    But don't get your hopes up. I also have a republican father, though he would follow hitler if he were a republican, so I don't even bother. I honestly think Bush could kill a puppy on TV and my dad would think it was OK. He is pissed about the social security stuff however.

    Impossible is nothing

    by DrSpike on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:37:44 PM PDT

  •  Let us know what happens (4.00 / 3)

    and best of luck.

    aimai

  •  This touches upon a sore spot with me (none / 1)

    not that I disagree with you - I agree completely.

    But let me tell you about my mother - she HATES Bush.

    I am glad that she does, but not because of her reasons, which are all about her personal reaction to him, and she know little about the issues.

    SHe LOVED Reagan, altho IMHO here is no difference - Bush is just the continuation, policy-wise.

    FOr some people - including som Kossaks, it is like football - raa raa Demms, booo boo Repubs - or vice-versa.

    The issues are just footballs, the spin is everything.

    THere is no real conversation with these people.

    Everyone detected with AIDS should be tattooed in the upper forearm, to protect common-needle users, and on the buttocks... -- William F. Buckley, Jr

    by tiponeill on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:47:33 PM PDT

    •  The cool thing . . . (none / 0)

      . . . is that there is real conversation with my father. On the other hand my kooky Republican brother (mentioned below) claimed to hate Kerry and all he could say was "he looks like a corpse." I'll take your mother's vote, happily, but I'd rather have serious political engagement.

      A Republican running for office in '08? Like a rat getting on a sinking ship.

      by Natural Anthem on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:00:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Reagan thing drives me nuts (none / 1)

      As you say, it's all the same, except that Reagan was a kind of dumb guy who nevertheless had a certain amount of charisma thanks to his B-movie actor past.  Bush is a dumb guy with no charisma that I can perceive, which makes him harder to understand.

      I'm not sure which of them is more maddening, come to think of it.

      Alan
      Maverick Leftist

  •  Shotgun (4.00 / 5)

    I don't think that your email will accomplish anything, because I don't think that the original diary entry is compelling. That entry is great for preaching to the choir, but it has little value in convincing people who are undecided. Its fundamental problem is that it is a "shotgun" approach -- pile charge after charge on your opponent, figuring that the accusations are additive in effect. In other words, if he gives 20% credence to Accusation #1 and 12% credence to #2, and 59% credence to #3, he'll end up believing that there's just gotta be something wrong with the Republicans. In practice, shotgun strategies are subtractive, not additive. He finds a flaw in #7 that gives it 0% credence, then applies that discount to every other accusation.

    The right way to do this is with the rifle shot, a single, undebatable, absolute proof of wrongdoing. He'll shake it off as a single case. Then you hit him with rifle shot #2, and so on. That's the best strategy. However, remember this fundamental truth of human nature: Nobody believes what they don't want to believe. You can never prove anything to somebody who doesn't want to hear proof.

    •  Re: Shotgun (none / 0)

      Working outside you central argument (that the e-mail won't change anything) isn't the Republican method accretive, making it hard to challenge? Specific arguments with Republican positions may, in this sense, be accepted without in any way having that lead to the conclusion that there's a problem in the edifice.

      Of course this appears to confirm your hypothesis: "Nobody believes what they don't want to believe." I think, however, that we ought to aim to move people incrementally--this will at least knock them off balance, keep them from further consolidating their position, even as they don't shift position--and it might have the desired effect.

      I need to think more about your argument that the original Bowers diary isn't effective for conversion. I'd agree in general, but (a) the examples he marshals are so extreme yet--at the same time--so typical of current political talk and (b) I'd hope it's difficult to align oneself with people who are so dishonest and, yes, disgusting.

       

      A Republican running for office in '08? Like a rat getting on a sinking ship.

      by Natural Anthem on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:23:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Erasmussino has a point (none / 1)

        I don't know your dad, but my impression would be that the Bowers diary is likely to put him in a defensive crouch.  I also think people are likely to forgive crass, uncivil behaviour in their politicians if they fundamentally agree with them ideologically.  So my tendency would be to approach the discussion in more generalised, ideological terms.  Of course, I don't have any Republicans in my biological family, though I do have a generally conservative/libertarian father-in-law (who apparently secretly voted for Kerry last fall, due to the fact that his son--my brother in law--is in the Army and was about to be sent to Iraq).  

        So, what do I know?  My ideological debates with my family tend to revolve more around the kind of stuff I talked about in this post.  A whole different kettle of fish, clearly.

        As other said, let us know how it goes!

        Alan
        Maverick Leftist

  •  I wrote a diary awhile back (4.00 / 3)

    about communicating with Republicans.  It flew by unnoticed, but here is how I think you should communicate with your Dad.

    Think about Newton's Third Law.

    Every Action has an Equal and Opposite Reaction

     Here's how it works. If you push on anything, it pushes back on you. That's why if you lean against the wall, you don't just fall through it. The wall pushes back on you as hard as you push on it, and you and the wall both stay in place.

     My theory is that the passion of our beliefs causes us to fail miserably when we speak to the unconverted.  When we engage in political discourse, we tend to push, causing the other party to push back.  This causes political discourse with Republicans to become a painful exercise in masochism.

    Shaniriver's Theories of Political Discourse:  

     Passionate Rhetoric results in equal and opposite Passionate Rhetoric

     Every accusation results in an equal and opposite accusation.

     Name-calling results in equal and opposite name-calling.

    Example 1:
    Democrat Action:  "Today's Republicans are nothing but Fascists!"
    Republican Reaction:  "Yeah, well, today's Democrats are Socialists!"

    Example 2:
    Democrat Action:  "George Bush is the worst president ever!"
    Republican Reaction:  "Yeah, well, he could get more done if he didn't have to clean up Clinton's mess.  Clinton was the worst president ever!"

    This is where we are going wrong.  Our passion causes us to engage in political discourse that causes an equal and opposite reaction... also known as an argument that we can never win.

    If they're not appalled, they're not paying attention.  We want them to pay attention.  They won't pay attention if we try to shove our views down their throats.  So we have to follow the Rules of Political Discourse:

    Shaniriver's First Rule of Political Discourse:  Complaining about "the government" and world affairs is a time-honored, bi-partisan, and patriotic activity.  (Note:  This rule also applies to LTE's.)
    Caveat: Never use hot-button words like Republican, Democrat, Bush, this administration, conservative, liberal, etc.  Instead say, "They" or "the government."  (Note:  This caveat also applies to LTE's.)

    Shaniriver's Second Rule of Political Discourse:  Guerilla tactics or hit and run idea bombs are preferable to two-way political conversation.  (Also known as "Say what you have to say, then leave!")
    Caveat:  Keep it light.

    Example 1:
    Democrat Action:  "I heard on the news today that most of the fish in the world are contaminated with Mercury.  Heh, good thing I like heavy metal!  Heck, with the day I've had, I almost wish I were walking around in a mercury-caused brain-damaged stupor.  Fish, it's what's for dinner!  Heh!"  (Walk away, whistling.)

    Republican Reaction:  "Heh, heh!  You're nuts!"  (Thinking, "Mercury in fish causes brain damage?  I ate fish for dinner last night!")

    Result:  The next time this person hears a news report about mercury emissions, legislation or levels in fish, he/she will pay attention.

    Example 2:
    Democrat Action:  "Did you hear that the government is planning to cut education funding and increase Pentagon funding?  Heh, our kids will be dumb as rocks, but at least we'll have lots of cool new weapons!"  (Saunter away, chuckling and shaking head.)

    Republican Reaction:  "Yeah, cool new weapons!"  (Thinking, "Wait a minute!  My kids are going to be dumb as rocks?")

    Result:  The next time this person hears a news report about the national budget or education, he/she will pay attention.

    In the last two examples, the Democrat used guerilla hit and run idea bomb tactics.  We must never engage the enemy in two-sided political discourse.  When it comes to political discourse, our passion is our enemy.  The Democrat in the above examples also did not use hot-button words and provoke a defensive, partisan response.

    Your duty as a Democrat is to avoid the equal and opposite reaction by laughingly dropping patriotic (i.e. government bashing) idea bombs on our targets.  You drop the bomb... then walk away.  If you never use hot-button words, your target will never suspect your agenda.  One day your target will walk up to you and say, "Hey, did you hear what the government is up to now?"  You have won.  You can sit side by side with this person, government bashing til the cows come home.  It's the patriotic thing to do.  Before you know it, your target will be paying attention and appalled...  Just like the rest of us.

    End diary.

    So, I agree very much with the Shotgun approach mentioned above, but would add to avoid the hot-button words.  I'll wish you luck with your Republican Dad if you'll wish me luck with my Republican (soon to be Libertarian) husband!

    "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

    by Shaniriver on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 06:41:01 PM PDT

    •  Thanks (none / 0)

      Well I just saw a news bit on yahoo saying that marriages where the individuals didn't share political beliefs were as successful as marriages where the political beliefs lined up.

      I was trying to figure out who Shaniriver was until I read your signature. I like the approach, and I think I follow the principles, albeit not as cleverly.

      But here's the rub: Republicans (er, they, the government) are openly contempuous, not interested in dialogue, but also not being subtle, as in "You Democrats are treasonous monsters not fit to walk on American soil," and it's working.

      Perhaps the goal shouldn't be to convert but to let people know that we won't take this lying down. If Republicans can only say this stuff to each other, if it is de-legitimized as not acceptable in civil discourse, or if it's just too much of a pain to deal with people who call you on your bulls--t, then that's a good outcome.

      I'd also apply Shaniriver's Rules contextually: Sometimes passion impresses people. I think it has with my father, causing him to back down from some of his claims about the "liberal" media. And perhaps the rule applies at normal times, but we're in a state of political crisis now.  

      I also see my father--an engineer--as open to reason even as he has his blind spots and stubborn points. I wouldn't say this of my Republican brother or of some Democrats I know (in other words I think sending an e-mail like this to my brother would backfire a la Newton's 3d).

      A Republican running for office in '08? Like a rat getting on a sinking ship.

      by Natural Anthem on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:07:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hmm, my husband (none / 1)

        also an engineer, BTW, closes down when I start showing passion.  He does listen when I say, "Ha, listen to this!" and laughingly read the latest Bush ridiculousness.  Most importantly, when I keep it light and don't interject my opinion he doesn't respond with, "Well, Clinton did the same thing!"

        You're right about the government contempt, but in my case, my hubby isn't contemptuous, so the passion just makes him defensive.

        BTW, I did like your email.  I think it would make an impact on him.  Good luck!

        "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

        by Shaniriver on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:17:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Family v. Public (none / 1)

          I also have listened to my father for decades and been quite measured, so I think he's more open to a passionate appeal. I honestly believe, for instance, that I've given things like social security privatization, free trade, tax policy, a fair hearing and acknowledged when he was more informed than I (he's also a libertarian leaner).

          Your methods remind me of some of the stuff I've read in Malcolm Gladwell's books The Tipping Point and Blink which both address how people make decisions and changes their views (the short answer: logic doesn't help much when trying to change peoples' views). I'd say these books should be required reading for Dems.

          I wonder if this is related to a bigger issue I've seen discussed on Kos recently: Perhaps Dems are too rational, or too open to logic (the Spock Party and the Kirk Party anyone?). Trouble is I want to be open to logic, I want to see how my ideas might be flawed (smarter people than me have been wrong).

          A Republican running for office in '08? Like a rat getting on a sinking ship.

          by Natural Anthem on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:28:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You both have good points (none / 1)

        I think Shaniriver's approach is most likely diabolically effective.  I have trouble, though (like many of us, no doubt) suppressing my full-blown debate mode, where I pull out all those hot-button words.  

        And in fact I need to really figure out what approach is right, which will work for me, as I am engaged in a fight right now in my city that has huge implications for our water, yes, but really for the future of our city government.  Shaniriver's post has made me doubt whether my instinct to get more confrontational and ideological is the right one.  

        On the other hand, though, it's not always just about converting dyed-in-the-wool Republicans.  Often debates are carried out between two partisans, but with less strongly allied individuals on the periphery or "audience" (though not in the case of Natural Anthem's email discussion, which is presumably strictly two-way).  I have been hit with the accusation before that "you'll never change his/her mind; you're both too stubborn".  

        And I've agreed with that, but pointed out that there are others observing the debate, not (yet) ideologically entrenched.  If I don't hit back as hard as I can, might they not be pulled slowly to the more agressive right wing side?  Hasn't that perhaps already happened with right wing radio et al.?  That's why I still lean toward getting more agressively ideological in my fight with the City Council here.  Those who I'm attacking directly are likely to go into the "defensive crouch" I mentioned earlier; but might not others say "hey, he's making some good points and tearing them down pretty good.  Maybe he's right that this is more than just a bad decision--maybe it is part and parcel of conservative ideology"?  I hope so.

        Alan
        Maverick Leftist

  •  I don't know... (4.00 / 2)

    I think Bowers' diary speaks for itself and does not need an introduction.  When I opened Bowers' diary, I thought... wow, what a hate mongerer!  Then realized quickly that he simply changed repub to dem.

    I think your discussion of the matter would be best suited as a response to ANYTHING he first comes up with. Send him the diary, ask him what he thinks.  And then I bet dollars to donuts, your letter above will be fitting. Interesting to test that theory, me thinks.

    But the real problem, I think, lies in the fact that in this country today, we have a population who is receptive to that nasty behavior.  People are mean spirited here.  Try making a harmless mistake on a roadway and see the anger that erupts around you.  Sheesh.

    One thing about the republicans -- they sure do a great job of creating exactly the opposite of what they claim they are trying to do.  This all started with bush sr, when he started his crap "Kinder, gentler America" mantra.  True to their fashion, we are anything BUT kinder and gentler.

    Where are the dems heading? Not left, not right -- but FORWARD! Chaaaaaarrrrrggggge!

    by Zapata28 on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:27:08 PM PDT

    •  Reading My Mind (none / 1)

      After reading these comments I just discussed the same strategy--send my father the Bowers diary, ask him what he thinks, and then respond as seems appropriate. Less loaded, more oriented to the humor that Shaniriver discusses. I expect you can tell that I've listened to my father carefully, studying his rhetoric, thinking about where it comes from, what it represents.

      If the Republicans (and I mean the Republican leadership, not individual R voters) weren't mendacious then they wouldn't need to come up with "kindler, gentler"; it's almost a Catch-22, like if we had something that needed covering up we could come up with these great (as in effective) subterfuges.

      A Republican running for office in '08? Like a rat getting on a sinking ship.

      by Natural Anthem on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:36:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Zapata82's suggestion (none / 1)

        Here's what I sent (note the nods to Shaniriver's Rules):

        Dad: I thought this did a good job of showing some of the problems I see in the way the media and government talk about politics: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/14/141747/345.

        What do you think? I'll send that piece on "Why Republicans Shun Academia" soon.

        A Republican running for office in '08? Like a rat getting on a sinking ship.

        by Natural Anthem on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:41:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sweet!!! (none / 1)

          I like it.. totally neutral intro... and let the piece speak for itself.  Bowers' compilation is truly powerful.  I am going to send it on to some people too.

          Granted, I think it is so great that you and your father can talk and really accept and love each other. So many of us have shattered families solely on this issue. Bush and the right wing have really divided this nation like never before.

          Thing is, when things were going the way of the LEFT, I feel like there was tremendous tolerance toward the more rigid people in our society.  I hate to say it, but look where tolerance got us?  It's a shame.  We let Rush just rattle and shrill right along... rolling out eyes.  It's a shame. The human condition is truly baffling.

          Where are the dems heading? Not left, not right -- but FORWARD! Chaaaaaarrrrrggggge!

          by Zapata28 on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:41:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  "Compassionate conservative" (none / 0)

        Same idea.  Then there are the even more blatant lies, like the "Healthy Skies Initiative" and all that bullshit.

        Alan
        Maverick Leftist

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