Daily Kos

Torturing AMERICANS Now A-OK

by vmibran

Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 09:04:18 AM PDT

I shit you not.

From John Aravosis and friends

quoting The LA Times

Gulf War pilots tortured by Iraqis fight the Bush administration in trying to collect compensation

It would be ironic if it weren't so tragic.  

During the 1991 Gulf War, some American soldiers -- pilots whose planes were downed -- were tortured, beaten and abused by Iraqis. It took place, of course, mainly in Abu Ghraib.

The soldiers banded together, sued Saddam Hussein's murderous regime, and were awarded nearly $1 billion. Hurrah!

But according to the LA Times, Bush is now standing in the way of those 17 victims of torture to keep them from collecting, saying that the Iraqis are now the good guys and need the money. American POWs, tortured and beaten, returning home as bona fide American Heroes, are now being told by their country that they matter less than the country that tortured them.

There's more . . .

Here's the money quote from Bush spokesperson Scott McClellan:

"No amount of money can truly compensate these brave men and women for the suffering that they went through at the hands of this very brutal regime and at the hands of Saddam Hussein," White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan told reporters when asked about the case in November 2003, according to the LA Times.

And now that's exactly what Bush insists they receive: absolutely no money.

This is, rightly, in violation of the Geneva Convention (which hasn't stopped this Administration before) AND U.S. Law (Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996).  But with Alberto 'Abu' Gonzalez as the Attorney General, YOUR US Government, by way of the Department of "Justice", is urging the court to reject this reasoning.

Now, and I PROMISE you that you will be outraged, Iraqis tortured by Americans at the same Abu Ghraib 15 months later, deserve compensation (read: YOUR tax dollars) from the United States, according to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld.  "I am seeking a way to provide appropriate compensation to those detainees who suffered grievous and brutal abuse and cruelty at the hands of a few members of the U.S. military. It is the right thing to do," Rumsfeld told a Senate committee last year.

I am told the 'H' in Donald H. Rumsfeld does not stand for 'Hypocrite', although it certainly should.

If this upsets you, or even outrages you, tell your Senator.  
Tell your Representative.  Tell your newspaper.  Tell your friends.  Tell everyone.

We CAN NOT allow American War Heroes to be betrayed by their own government.

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  •  Rate me. (1.60 / 58)

    This diary needs to be rated highly.

    Bush: Making the country safe for unrepentant bigotry since 2001.

    by jdjonsson on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 09:02:43 AM PDT

  •  Please take this in the spirit ... (4.00 / 4)

    ... is in intended. With profound sarcasm. Did the American's treatment at the hands of Saddam Hussein meet Abu Gonzales' definition of torture?

    noli, amabo, verberare lapidem ne perdas manum -- Plautus

    by fritzrth on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 09:10:38 AM PDT

  •  I sorta dissagree... (4.00 / 4)

    with your premise that the Administration is acting as 'hypocrites' in the actual torture itself.  If the administration were to allow this decision to stand, then Dubya, Rummy and Abu Gonzales would be open for a law suite against their personal possessions in international court over the abuses in Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Diego Garcia, Egypt, etc.  See, this whole torture thing has many ramifications and tentacles.  The administration has literally opened Pandora's Box.

    by RichM on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 09:17:35 AM PDT

  •  No amount of money... (none / 0)

    ... can truly compensate Scott McClellan for the invaluable service that he provides to our nation as Press Secretary.

    With a maverick like John McCain, who needs a toady?

    by Malacandra on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 09:32:07 AM PDT

  •  this is wrong (none / 1)

    but $1 BILLION?? Come on.

    1,000,000,000

    McClellan is right that no amount of money can compensate for their pain, but that doesn't mean the actual fine should be a ridiculous amount of money. I'd like to think this is a matter of principle, not money. We pay our troops' families $12,000 for combat deaths, which is obviously much too little, but 1 billion is absurd, even split 17 ways.

    Blue Jersey: All the news that slips from print.

    by jmelli on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 09:37:00 AM PDT

    •  This must be (none / 0)

      ...in support of tort reform, eh?  Can't have silly amounts given out in frivilous lawsuits.

      by Thursday on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 12:20:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  then uphold the fucking Court Ruling (none / 1)

      a matter of principle

      a jury decided that $1 billion was just compensation

      if you support principles so much, support the principle of honoring legal rulings by the Courts of The United States of America.

      Even if, unlike George Bush, you never swore an oath to do so, you should support the principle of upholding the laws and Courts of the United States

      what is more absurd, the awards against Saddam, or George Bush defending Saddam's actions after 1465 soldiers are dead ???

      The whole fucking war is absurd, don't start being rational now, at the expense of our own soldiers

      by knowthings on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 02:49:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't see what else (none / 1)

    the Bush admin is supposed to do, actually. A BILLION DOLLARS is one heck of a lot of money. Why do these pilots need a billion dollars? Do they need it more than Iraq needs it? What was America supposed to say to Iraq if it sided with the pilots in taking A BILLION DOLLARS out of Iraq's coffers for a handful of its citizens at a time when we already are widely seen as an illegitimate occupying force causing much damage to the country? What is the American government supposed to say to its own taxpayers who were led to believe Iraq was going to be able to pay for much of its own reconstruction, when in fact we're footing the bill because Iraq simply doesn't have the money?

    The US and Iraq are so tied up at the moment that this billion dollars would essentially be coming out of the pockets of American taxpayers. Not Saddam. Not his henchmen. Not the pilots' torturers. Why should I pay for Saddam's crimes? The Bush admin is right on this one, and I'm a little shocked that these pilots are pressing for this money. It just strikes me as greedy. At this point paying out the money would not be punitive on the people who imprisoned and tortured them, but on the US taxpayer and ordinary Iraqis we're supposedly trying to help.

    by Elizabeth D on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 09:43:40 AM PDT

    •  The amount (none / 1)

      can be appealed, that is not the issue, the issue is that the U.S. is willing to pay those tortured in Abu-Ghraib by "a few bad actors" and thus quiet the matter while not allowing compensation for the U.S. pilots, compensation that would have to come from the U.S. goverment since Iraq is broke!

      "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Seneca

      by Ralfast on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 09:55:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But there is no clean way to compensate (none / 1)

        If the US government pays the compensation, it establishes the principle that it is willing to pay for Saddam's crimes.

        There are hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who could apply to the US government for similar compensation.

        If the Iraqi government pays, that's more scarce money out of its coffers (already drained by paying a fortune to Halliburton contractors).

        $1 billion for 17 people is $59 million each.  If there are 300K surviving victims of Saddam's torture (a conservative estimate), we're talking almost $18 trillion.  That's a sum greater than the entire US GDP.

        Visit my blog

        by tyronen on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:04:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe it should (none / 1)

          If the US government pays the compensation, it establishes the principle that it is willing to pay for Saddam's crimes.

          Since the U.S. funded Saddam's war against the Iranians and his own people for nearly 10 years...

          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Seneca

          by Ralfast on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:17:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Cart, Apple; Apple, Cart (4.00 / 2)

          So BushCo won't allow these American Heroes to claim any righteous compensation BECAUSE BushCo took all the money in Iraq already and gave it to their cronies contractors, like Halliburton?

          Are you TRYING to make my point?

          "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." -George S. Patton

          by vmibran on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:37:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Amount of Compensation or Any Compensation? (4.00 / 7)

      I'm a little lost on your point.  Are you saying that these American soldiers, who were captured, imprisoned, and tortured in violation of US and international law deserve NOTHING from their torturers or their own government because their government later invaded the same country under false pretenses which caused that country's economy to collapse?  I'm a little dizzy at that one.

      American military personnel acting "in defense" of their government, fulfilling their government's orders, and in a declared war are tortured by the enemy combatant.  Clearly according to US and international law, they are entitled to compensation.

      These HEROES are not "greedy".

      Just because BushCo invaded Iraq and screwed everything up does NOT invalidate their just claim.

      If you want to debate the amount, I can agree with that.  THAT value was established prior to the War for Oil and All Things Halliburton and was established, as you mention, as a punitive measure against Saddam.

      So they don't NEED a billion.  Right.  They deserve something.  

      "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." -George S. Patton

      by vmibran on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:03:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As I said, (none / 1)

        At this point paying out the money would not be punitive on the people who imprisoned and tortured them, but on the US taxpayer and ordinary Iraqis we're supposedly trying to help.

        Who are you thinking is going to pay this? You mention his torturers, but who and where are they exactly? One might suggest Saddam, but don't the now-free and clearly needy Iraqi people have a prior claim on the wealth Saddam looted from them? Do you want the new Iraqi government to pay this judgment? Why do they deserve Saddam's punishment? And if you do that, doesn't that essentially mean more US funds are needed for Iraq? Let's save everyone trouble and just cut the pilots a billion dollar check from the US treasury.

        by Elizabeth D on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:47:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  why do you hate our soldiers ??? (none / 1)

          George Bush should have seen this problem coming in Febuary of 2003. This problem SHOULD NOT BE a problem. All of these lawsuits were filed ands pending when George gave the order to invade Iraq. This is just another failure to plan

          Why bother to protect America's taxpayers from a bill that we know we owe at the expense of people who really DO protect America's taxpayers ???

          Why not take care of the people who are willing to risk their lives to protect our country ???

          Forget all of your penny pinching and think of the results such an order would have on our Armed Forces

          Just because George Bush doesn't support the troops, doesn't mean you should abandon them too

          as you sow shall you reap

          by knowthings on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 01:08:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  remember (none / 1)

      There's that $9 billion in cash and prizes lying lost in a duffel bag somewhere in Kirkuk. Put it in perspective and they're just asking for 11% of that. And hey, it's already gone from our point of view...

      Seriously though, Iraq doesn't have money for some things, but is propped up by the US government's deep pockets for other things.

      A truly benevolent US administration that cares about its soldiers might cut a deal and compensate these US soldiers on behalf of the new Iraqi government. Probably not a billion dollars -- as little as $25M or $50M would probably do it. Given how much we're spending and what these guys went through, it'd be a drop in the bucket.

      There's some danger of establishing a precedent, but if the US does it as a one-time exception or just as a special benefit to these guys in exchange for dropping the suit, I don't think it would be that bad.

      But fat chance of something that benefits the little guy happening under W.

      The world won't get no better if we just let it be.

      by drewthaler on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:12:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Typical Bush attitude (none / 1)

    Well, no amount of money can adequately cover what they went through, so fuck 'em.  

    They're really stretching this class action lawsuit ban to new limits - can't they at least give the soldiers the minimum amount allowed under this legislation?  It seems this is the least hey could do.

    This is typical of an administration that slaps the back of the American soldier with one hand, while using their other hand to rip off their nuts.  How are they the party of the troops?

    "Soon the super karate monkey death car would park in my space. But Jimmy has fancy plans... and pants to match."

    by Dave Brown on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 09:48:39 AM PDT

  •  Did you check? (4.00 / 4)

    previous diaries?  I always do although sometimes I miss them... just hoping you did a thorough search first.

    Bush doesn't care if our own POWs get tortured!
    by SusanHu

    Tue Feb 15th, 2005 at 08:10:57 PST

    While Bush's White House has condemned "Saddam Hussein's Refusal to Account for Gulf War Prisoners" -- and has made a poster boy out of missing Gulf War pilot Michael Scott Speicher -- the White House is battling U.S. former POWs right to compensation from the Iraqi government.  This week, Justice Dept. lawyers will file a brief to turn away an appeal to SCOTUS.

    We need our own plant in the White House press conferences -- preferably someone from Amnesty Intn'l or CCR -- to ask Scott McClellan to explain these grossly inconsistent and highly insensitive statements:

    "No amount of money can truly compensate these brave men and women for the suffering that they went through at the hands of this very brutal regime and at the hands of Saddam Hussein," White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan told reporters when asked about the case in November 2003.

    Government lawyers have insisted, literally, on "no amount of money" going to the Gulf War POWs. "These resources are required for the urgent national security needs of rebuilding Iraq," McClellan said. Los Angeles Times, Feb. 15, 2005

    ::: more below :::

    Susan (my cat)

    by SusanHu on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 10:06:50 AM PDT

  •  I Posted On This A Few Days Ago ... (none / 0)

    See:

    Bush Admin. To Tortured U.S. Vets: Fuck You

    "Who the hell ever heard of a goddamn titty bar with no goddamn titties, for chrissakes?!"

    by gwhayduke on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:13:57 AM PDT

    •  I did a search after posting above ... (none / 0)

      and found about six diaries on this before today's.  Yikes.   Talk about duplication :):)

      Susan (my cat)

      by SusanHu on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:25:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  but apparently (none / 0)

        a lot of Kossacks didn't see them, because so many people have recommended this diary that it's on the Recommended List. It's impossible to be on here 24/7 and read every single diary. A lot of times I see notes like yours in a diary I'm reading on a topic that is news to me. So I really don't think duplication is a bad thing, unless the same subject is duplicated in diaries in close proximity.

        by chantedor on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:40:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  kos rules (none / 0)

          i cannot believe how confusing the rules are for dkos!  the faq doesn't explain much.  i am addicted to this site.  However, the "community" seems to be rather hostile to each other.  i still don't know how to become a TU so I can read "hidden comments".  It seems that any troll who had as much time on their hands as some of the kos community could easily become a TU.  Where are the rules posted?

          by dylanfan on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:55:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah ... (none / 0)

            Anonymity usually seems to bring out the worst in people, or at least in those who type/open their mouths befor they think ... Kind of like driving ...

            In any event, you might have mistaken my intent in noting that I'd posted on this a few days ago ... There was no criticism expressed or implied; I posted the link to my diary to provide additional commentary, and in an effort to promote further discussion.

            "Who the hell ever heard of a goddamn titty bar with no goddamn titties, for chrissakes?!"

            by gwhayduke on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 12:02:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  n/t (none / 0)


              Was anyone being hostile?  I sure wasn't ... I just know that we're supposed to see if anyone else has already posted a similar story.

              Anyway, one of the problems here is that there are so many diaries.  If people, before they post their own diaries, check to see if others have already posted similar info on the same topic, it really cuts down on the # of diaries and therefore the most unique, most worthwhile get a chance to be noticed more.  

              I did a simple search and found six diaries on this topic.  It's a good point, though, that many didn't see this topic before so recommended it.  But that's true of countless news stories every day.  If we all posted six diaries on every daily news story, this site would be buried in diaries.

              Susan (my cat)

              by SusanHu on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 12:50:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  DylanFan (none / 1)

            You asked about TU status yesterday, and it was explained to you. Several people (6) gave you 4's just to help you along. Yes, having some time on your hands is required. You've made a total of 16 comments during your tenure as a dKos user (which, by your user number, appears to be about 4-6 mos.), which is not enough to really build up mojo. The basic rules for diaries are posted on the page where you write the diaries. While there may be excuses for bending these rules, there's really no excuse for not knowing them. If you'd like to learn more about the general rules, there is, in addition to the FAQ link, a link to community norms that you can follow from the FAQ.

            For instance, the Community Norms entry links to this diary on tip jars, although, admittedly, it is not quite as comprehensive as one might like, and it assumes some prior knowledge.

            There are two things that TU status gets you, the ability to see hidden comments, and the ability to help create hidden comments. I, for one, like a system where someone has to learn the rules and norms, and to follow them, in order to wield the power of the super-troll. Keep posting substantial (or at least witty) comments, and it'll happen for you. When you get a feel for how to make comments that people reward with 4s, you'll have proven yourself to the great god of SCOOP.

            P.S. Cheers and Jeers can be your friend. :bonobo

            Anyone can blog local races. Anyone can raise money.

            by bonobo on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 01:32:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Tough issue (none / 0)

    Should the Iraqi's pay the price for something that was done by Hussein and his henchmen?

    Should the US Government pay for it?

    Actually, I tend to lean toward the latter, although I think the compensation should be negotiated downward.

    Remember, the suit was brought forward under US Law.

    And remember, that these were people serving their country and put into harm's way by our government.

    And Rumsfeld has indicated that victims and families of victims of torture should receive some compensation.

    Do they deserve something?  Yes.

    And for our government to say that there compensation from the lawsuit should not be recovered without offering some other option is pathetic, but in keeping with its tradition, established by Bush, of punishing our military for follwoing orders.

    By the way, the "H" doesn't stand for humble either, and nor should it.

    Bush, so incompetent, he can't even do the wrong things right.

    by JAPA21 on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:18:30 AM PDT

    •  torture of Canadians in Syria (none / 0)

      Jane Mayer exposed in "The New Yorker" how a CANADIAN citizen was apprehended by us at Kennedy airport, sent to Syria, was tortured by our Syrian "torture pals" for 13 months, found to be innocent and was sent back to Canada.  Say it out loud, We torture innocent Canadian citizens in Syria"  But now, we are rattling our swords at Syria for having troops in Lebanon.  My head spins from all this.  And people on the right go"huh, what's strange about this, I don't get it."  It is a wonder that we on the left are not sitting in corners babbling like lunatics.

      by Give us a break on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:39:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well (none / 0)

    Since none of them DIED, it must not be torture.

    The New Democrat

    The Donkey Has Arrived -http://www.centristdonkey.blogspot.com

    by demburns on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 11:33:16 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for posting this. (none / 0)

    Recommended.  This is so terrible.  But they can't allow this to be paid off can they, since they've opened the door for abuse of troops?  
    Sigh.

    America: Show your support for it with more than jingoistic slogans or leave it.

    by CJB on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 12:37:04 PM PDT

  •  Hey! Any Latinos in that group? (none / 0)

    Wouldn't it be something if there were a Latino or two among that group of tortured Gulf War Vets?  Would tie right in to the post by AmericanRenaissance "Help Senator Bingaman Against Attacks To His Opposition to Gonzales
    "

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo

    by prophet on Wed Feb 16, 2005 at 01:04:18 PM PDT

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