Daily Kos

Frameshop: Intellectual Property isn't

Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 09:24:10 AM PDT

As I write this, one of the lead articles on dKos is the copyright problems with a teacher wanting to show "Eyes on the Prize".  My response to this: welcome to the party, pal!  For a couple of years now I've been listing copyright/patent issues as my number one important issues for years now, only to collect either blank stares or weird looks.  And yet, exactly what I've been worrying about and dreading is now coming to pass: copyright is being used to curtail political speech.  This issue isn't just about musicians getting paid for their work (actually, it's never been about that)- it's about whether free speech, and by extension a functional democracy, exist in any real sense.  Of all the important issues debated on dKos, only voting rights ranks as important in my mind.

And, as is normal in these sorts of battles, the anti-Democratic forces have framed the issue in the way most advantageous to them, by getting everyone to adopt "Intellectual Property" as the very name for the debate.

More below the fold.

I start, as I always have to, by stating that I am not opposed to copyrights or patents.  I am not some radical "information wants to be free!"  I feel musicians, writers, and artists of all sorts should profit from their works.  I comment that I, too, make my living in exactly the same way as any writer or musician, by selling the fruits of my creativity and intellectual skill.  I am a programmer.  Drop the false dichotomy- there a number of different ways to implement copyright and patent.  Simply because I say that current system is harmful, doesn't mean I'm arguing to abolish it.  I'd be quite happy to return the setup we had in 1970 (by the way, things have radically changed in the last forty years).

Let's start with the framing.  As usual, the radical anti-democratic anti-free-speech radicals claimed the early framing.  They did it early, they did it subtly, they did it effectively, and they did it fundamentally with the very name we give to the entire debate- "Intellectual Property".  It's not property.  It never was.  But by calling it property they bring in a whole host of (false to fact) common assumptions about how property works- assumptions that come from how more natural property- your house, say, or the chair you're sitting in- works.  The problem is that it's not property, it's a government granted monopoly.

We have a whole bunch of fundamental assumptions about property that don't apply to "Intellectual Property".  Think in terms of land.  First off, every square foot of land is owned by someone or some group or organization.  Some of it is owned by private individuals (your home, etc.), some by corporations, and some of it is owned by the government (the roads and parks, etc.).  But all of it is owned.  The ownership may shift from one owner to another- homes can be sold, can be seized for back taxes of imminent domain, farms can be subdivided into house sized lots, etc.  But the fact is that the land is owned by someone, always has been (at least since we took it away from the natives), and always will be.  

This is not the case with so-called "Intellectual Property".  No one "owns" Shakespeare.  No one owns the bible.  No one owns the Iliad.  There is a common culture that is owned, if it is owned at all, by the whole culture, and is free for all to use.  Anyone can, for example, grab the public domain stories of Cinderella or Beauty and the Beast and tell them in whatever form they choose.  It is one of the hidden jokes of this entire debate that one of the companies forefront in the fight to destroy the public domain is also one of the biggest beneficiaries of the public domain.  Sarcasm is dead.

But it's even worse than that.  With land, you can wander down to the local court house, and for a nominal fee look up who owns any given square foot of land, and how to get in contact with them.  If I want to get permission to use a given square foot of land, I'm expected to get permission before I do- thus the need for the registration of property ownership, so you know who to contact.  This isn't the case with copyright and patents- there is no place you can go to look up who owns any given piece of "Intellectual Property" (or if, indeed, it's owned at all) and how to contact them.  This is one of the problems of documentaries like "Eyes on the Prize"- if, in one scene, behind the person being interviewed, happens to be a poster that is partially visible in the frame, that poster is copyright by someone.  Before you distribute the entire film, you need to get agreement by whomever owns the copyright on that poster before hand.

The fact that there is no place you can go and look up the information you need is irrelevant.  The fact that the person who made the poster may have been dead, and forgotten to assign the copyright in their will, is irrelevant.  The fact that it may be unclear which of several people own the copyright is irreverent.  Nor is the fact that they want to charge a hundred million dollars.  Your choices are put up or shut up.

This, by the way, is different from how Copyright worked in 1970.  Remember that I said that there were multiple different possible implementations, and that we had changed implementations in the last 40 years?  This is one way.  Back in the old days, for copyright to be applicable, you had to register your work with the Library of Congress.  This has changed.  Another difference is that ideas work differently than physical objects, like land or chairs.  If I use your chair, you no longer have use of the chair.  You have less wealth.  If I use one of your ideas, you still have use of the idea.  You haven't lost anything, and are no more worse off now than you were before.  If there is one thing programming has taught me, it's not the idea that is valuable, it's the use of the idea.  Algorithms have no value, until implemented in working code.  Is it the algorithm that has value, or the working code?

I want to spend a couple of seconds discussing the concept that "all rights are property rights".  This is an interesting and fundamental legal theory- and it's as relevant as the theory that "all computers are Turing machines"- true in theory, but irrelevant in practice.  Try to follow it strictly in practice and you'll end up looking for the mag tape in your P4.

So if Copyright and Patent aren't property, what are they?  They're monopolies.  Government granted monopolies over the micro-markets of the sale and distribution of a particular work.  Note that not all monopolies are bad.  We allow, even encourage, certain monopolies because without the monopoly, certain services simply wouldn't exist.  Back in thirties the Federal Government paid to set up several electrical companies in various rural areas- the government paid to create new monopolies.  This was worthwhile because without the monopoly, most rural areas still wouldn't have electrical service.  

But, with any monopoly, the danger is that it allows the monopoly owner to abuse the market.  So with the monopoly comes the requirement that the monopoly be regulated.  Electric companies aren't allowed to charge whatever the heck they want, there are government regulators who put caps on the price.  Remove the caps, and you will get abuses of the monopoly.  If the California blackouts haven't already come to your mind, let me remind you, because the situation is directly analogous.  Welcome to the copyright blackouts.

A note to the libertarians reading this: these are not natural monopolies, like telephone or electrical service are, where the cost of running a copper wire to every home in the country are so high that there is tremendous economic incentive to not do it twice.  Copyright and patent ideas, by contrast, are government created and government enforced monopolies.  You can't just burn a bunch of copies of Britney Spears' latest offering and go into competition with Sony BMG as a distributor of her music.  If you want to complain about government interference with business, start here.  As a good liberal, I don't have philosophical problems with government getting involved- I just want it to clean up it's own messes.  Our current copyright system is, effectively, a deregulation of a monopoly.

This is as good a place as anywhere to segue into the whole "But think of the poor starving children, er, artists!" argument.  Remember that I'm a programmer- I make my living the same way as Britney Spears does, I just don't make quite as much money at it (despite the fact that I earn significantly more than most working musicians).  But this also means I'm a technologist.  And I know that technology means that a certain level of copyright infringement ("piracy" has to do with boats) is inevitable.  Because the software industry has been dealing with this for a lot longer than anyone else has.

Remember all those games back in the eighties that came copy-protected?  Those schemes were designed by programmers in an attempt to protect the programmers livelihood.  A hell of a lot more creativity and engineering went into them than what's going in to todays "Digital Rights Management" software.  And guess what?  Every single one of them got broken.  The whole lot.  Many were broken the day they shipped (or even before).  Few lasted more than a week.  The copy protection was cracked, and the games were shared.  Sound familiar?  Welcome to the party, pal.  As long as we have general purpose computers and open source operating systems, copyright violations are going to be a fact of life.

After all of that fuss, and after all that bother, what we programmers learned from our decades of experience was that copy-protection didn't matter.  In fact, free sharing of our software helped in selling it.  Lotus-123 was probably the most "pirated" piece of software ever.  It's why it was so popular and sold so well.  People would "steal" a copy and start using it.  Then they'd realize they needed it, and it was worth the couple of hundred bucks it cost, and go buy a copy.  Here little boy- the first taste is free (I note that the only two industries that call their customers 'users' is software and drugs).

Is there any evidence that this applies to domains other than software?  I mean- software is functional.  Is there any evidence that once people have gotten, say, a book for free, is there any evidence that people would go out and buy a legitimate copy?  Actually, yes there is.  The truth is, when a writer or musician or artist creates a think a beauty that I enjoy, I- and most other people- want to reward the artist.  It's partially altruism, but it's also to a large extent not altruistic at all, but instead a way to encourage the creation of more valuable (enjoyable) works of art.  Hey, Eric Flint- you write books I like! Here's some money- go write more books I'll like.

The other truth of the artistic life is that the number of Britney Spears is strictly limited.  There are far more musicians who would make more money working at Walmart than they do as musicians, than there are mega-stars.  The problem is exposure.  How do you know, for example, whether you will like Maggie Drennon's music or not?  This is where the free samples comes in.

It's not the starving artists- it's not the Maggie Drennons and Eric Flints of the world, that our current copyright system is designed to protect.  Quite the contrary, the current copyright system hurts them significantly.  It's the Britney Spears and Tom Clancys of the world.  What is being preserved is not the right for a musician or writer to make money off their work- what is being preserved is the right to prevent all but a select handful of musicians and writers from getting any significant exposure of their work, and the right of monopolies to exploit their position.

Unfortunately, the damage being wrought by this purely economic play extends much further than just the damage to the Maggies and Erics of the world.  Because the record companies and movie studios, in attempt to do the impossible, are changing the nature of democracy.  If you own a press, with it comes the ability to violate someone's copyright.  This is just the nature of printing presses of all forms.  By insisting on "zero tolerance for copyright violation", they are not so much infringing on freedom of the press, so much as the freedom to own a press.  Or to make and sell presses.  The current trend in legislation that is being proposed and passed is to make software companies that write software which makes it possible to violate someones copyright illegal.  Even if the software has other, legitimate, even primary purposes.

Or, to put the situation more plainly: because dailyKos is a mechanism whereby someone can violate a copyright, Kos himself is guilty of the crime of copyright violation.  The fact that this is not the primary, or even intended, purpose of dailyKos, or the fact that it'd be almost impossible for Kos to eliminate copyright violations, is irrelevant and immaterial.  Rely on the courts to keep things sane?  Talk to the pro-choice advocates about the problems with that strategy.  Especially since this issue is generally consider both deadly dull and exceeding arcane.  And one not as important, say, as abortion or balanced budgets.  

Until, of course, the day comes where it starts affecting you.  If we don't have a democracy, it's pointless to debate any other issue.  If we can't debate the issues, we don't have a democracy.  This is one of those fundamental issues that if we lose on, winning on other issues won't matter.  I'm glad to see the non-technical side of the blogsphere waking up to the issue.

Tags: (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 102 comments

  •  Intellectual property (4.00 / 2)

    Intellectual property is intellectual censorship in a way. It does more harm than good in most cases because new information must always be built on old information and when old information is owned, newer ideas based on it are impossible.

    One solution is to promote free open licenses like the creative commons and the GPL
    http://creativecommons.org/
    http://www.gnu.org/

    •  One minor little nit (4.00 / 2)

      Both the GPL and the Creative Commons (and I'm a big supporter of both) are built on top of copyright...

      What we need is not copyright abolition, but copyright reform.  And an increased recognition that copyright is a balance between the good of the artistic creators and the good of society as a whole.

      Brian

      "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

      by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 09:37:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Been arguing this frame for years. (4.00 / 2)

      My statement is that it is not property, but a temporary exclusive license granted to  "assign to authors the exclusive benefit of their works for a limited time in order to promote the useful arts and sciences".

      When people say "Intellectual Property", I dispute the use of the term.

      At best, IP stands for intellectual product.

      It could be worse. I could still be living in Texas.

      by msaroff on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:30:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But... (none / 0)

        the original concept of "assigning licenses" arose before the Statute of Anne, when the English Crown felt IT owned the monopoly over the printed book trade.

        More info here.  For obvious reasons concerning probable censorship, I'm against looking at intellectual property like this.

        "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

        by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:37:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  4 for your sig (none / 0)

        It reminds me of a personals ad printed in the National Lampoon many years ago along the lines of:

        "M, 34, well-endowed with truckload of Raspberry Fizzies, seeks F, 25-35, graciously proportioned, with a swimming pool and a taste for the unusual."

  •  I'll say it again (none / 0)

    Intellectual property is theft.

    Americans placed the stamp of approval on the least justifiable military action since Hitler invaded Poland. Paul C. Roberts

    by Clueless Joe on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 09:28:11 AM PDT

    •  Intellectual property (4.00 / 2)

      Is a made up concept, people basically invented it so they could have a way to control the flow of ideas. If you like censorship you'll love intellectual property. In my opinion intellectual property is unconstitutional. Copyright in my opinion is constitutional but applied wrong. Copyright should protect the rights to sell your product, these rights should be exclusive, but I don't think you should be able to sue someone for sharing your product if they paid for it. If someone purchased your product and they for example share their TV, technically this is copyright infringement even though no one buys a TV with intentions on keeping it to themselves. Everyone knows no one watches the expensive pay per view boxing event without inviting their friends over. The purpose of copyright should be to benefit the consumer by fostering progress. Currently in certain industries its slowing progress (the music industry, the software industry), and in these cases the question is who owns the music, the creators or the world? Who should own music? Is it owned by the commons or by the company? Who should own all the information and knowledge? Should these things have owners? And why should profitability decide who owns what?
    •  Could you expand please? (none / 0)

      Just curious why you say this.

      "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

      by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 09:44:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And about software (none / 1)

    You are absolutely right. The main reason Windows took over and made Bill Gates the richest man on earth is because it was given away for free. Then later on they began to charge for it.

    The same is happening with Linux right now, its free. Apple, the one company which embraced intellectual property the most and which was least free is also the least successful.

    So one point you can make is that free sharing of information fuels innovation. Windows is as big as it is because other programmers could build programs on top of it to a degree, and Linux is even more open.

    Another site you might find interesting is http://www.friendsofthecommons.org/
    Spread the site around.

    •  Apple Is Free Enough (none / 1)

      The thing is... Apple is enjoying enourmous success right now because they've found a nice balance point where they're "free enough". Their operating system is based heavily on free software, with a few proprietary extensions on top... But with hooks in those proprietary extensions that let other people make good use of them. Their iTMS has technological methods to prevent copying of songs... That can be trivially bypassed with a bit of AppleScript or even just by burning the songs to a CD-RW and re-ripping them.

      They've become an excellent example of how "free enough" pays.

      •  Now its too late (none / 0)

        Yeah now Apple is supporting free software, but its too late. Microsoft already won and now Apple is trying to copy Linux. I think Linux already has them by the balls. Finally Apple's software is open but their hardware is very closed. Microsoft made the right move by having open hardware and open software and they proved the best way to profit is by having the most open flexible technologies. They build windows in such a way so that millions of companies are profiting from their software. This is how its done.

        Linux can be the new Microsoft, and this would do a lot for many of the poor countries of the world who cannot afford Windows. Why won't the Democratic party actually support the open source movement? It follows all the Democrat ideals. When people around the world can all afford good software, the work they produce will also be shared because of how Linux is designed, and then we all benefit. It's in our own best interest to have a global open source software industry.

        It's also in our best interest to have a global music industry. Why should we be forced to only buy mainstream American music? The best music might not even be made in America. Imagine all the jobs you could create in Africa or other poor societies which might not have expertise in many other fields but which may have music expertise, or art expertise, or whatever.

        The key to all of this is to find a way to allow musicians, artists, programmers and others to profit off creating information instead of selling it. When this happened and you combine it with the global online distribution model, a kid in Africa with a drum could become a millionaire overnight. An artist in Mexico could become the next great artist of our century, and the best programmer in the world could be living in China right now unable to afford the software.

        •  Copy Linux? (none / 0)

          I'm typing this on a Linux machine, and I'm asking you straight up - have you ever even used OS X? They're not trying to copy Linux, they're trying to gain marketshare. And it is working. They've already taken control of the digital music player market, and a lot of people with iPods are now eyeing Macs curiously.

          As for hardware... Apple machines now use mostly standard components - ATI or nvidia video cards, PowerPC processors, standard RAM, PCI/AGP expansion slots, ATA hard disks, the whole lot. The only nonstandard components are the cases and assorted other high-end stuff that they design themselves, like motherboards and monitors. Not only that, but they've embraced USB and Bluetooth and developed Firewire and Rendezvous, which has lead to a positive explosion in third-party expansion hardware using those technologies.

          I agree, though. Democrats should embrace Free Software (free as in freedom). I think the reluctance to do so is a lingering thing from the days when the content cartels were on our side.

        •  Democrats are supporting free software (none / 0)

          If campaign sites are any indication. Here's a little article from Linux Journal:

          www.linuxjournal.com :

          Penguins for President?
          By Doc Searls on Thu, 2003-11-06 00:00.
          Is there any significance to what Web server/platform combinations 2004 presidential candidates are using?

          As we swing into the thick of the 2004 electoral playoffs, it's interesting to see what kinds of platforms are running under the candidates' official campaign Web sites. Netcraft has a handy feature called "What's that site running?" that lets us see combinations of Web servers and OS platforms. So here's a quick rundown, in alphabetical order:

              *

                George W. Bush: Microsoft IIS on Windows 2000
              *

                Wesley Clark: Apache on Linux
              *

                Howard Dean: Apache on FreeBSD
              *

                John Edwards: Microsoft IIS "behind a computer running NetWare"
              *

                Richard Gephardt: Microsoft IIS on Windows 2000
              *

                John Kerry: Apache on Linux
              *

                Dennis Kucinich Apache on Linux
              *

                Carol Mosely-Braun: Apache on FreeBSD
              *

                Al Sharpton: Apache on Solaris 8
              *

                Joe Lieberman: Apache on FreeBSD

          For what it's worth, the Republican National Committee is running Microsoft IIS on Windows 2000, while the Democratic National Committee is running Apache on Linux.

          As of this writing, November 5, 2003, the RNC has an uptime of 4.26 days (maximum of 39.04) and a 90-day moving average of 16.91. The DNC has an uptime of 445.02 days (also the maximum) and a 90-day moving average of 395.38 days.

          Draw your own conclusions.

  •  Property (4.00 / 3)

    Another issue with the phrase "Intellectual Property" is that it implies that authors have a "natural right" that gives them absolutel control over everything they've produced no matter what. After all, when I buy a piece of land, I have a "natural right" to control how that land is used and what goes on there. There is a solid logical basis for this.

    No such basis exists for "Intellectual Property". How can I claim ownership and control over an idea? After all, unlike real property, ideas aren't exclusive. Anyone can come up with "my" idea, and in coming up with it - even if I don't realize it - I've used dozens or hundreds or even thousands of ideas from other authors. There's also no clear - or even vague! - boundaries to an idea. This "intellectual property" frame is what's lead us into the absurd situation of having patents on general business practices, mathematical concepts, and other abstract ideas and procedures. As opposed to, as was the case historically, specific devices and implementations.

    As an aside, I happen to believe that compiled software programs should not be eligible for copyright protection but, rather, should be patented, like any other device or machine. Software source code should be eligible for copyright protection. The reason - one of the primary purposes of copyright is to encourage the development of a common basis of publically-available works for new authors to learn from. Unfortunately, it's impossible to learn from a compiled comptuer program. Thus, it should not be eligible for copyright protection.

    •  Exactly (none / 1)

      In my opinion intellectual property is only valueable if it speeds progress. The only thing I see it doing is protecting profits. We the people don't give a rats ass about profits if we recieve none of the benefits of these profits. Think of the drug industry with all of its patents and copyrights, then think of all of the billions who will die of illnesses because these drug companies don't think its profitable to cure them, or they dont want to give up their patents.

      In my opinion, the drug industry is one of these industries in which copyright shouldnt exist at all. And for academics copyright and intellectual property should not exist at all. Everyone knows that knowledge is found and then built on, not owned and sold. When you begin to buy and sell information and knowledge, what it does is tells all the worlds poor that they have to stay poor because they cannot afford the copyrights and licenses to get rich, they cannot afford the knowledge, maybe some kid in an inner city or in China cannot afford $500 photoshop.
      Shouldnt the governments be supporting open source based software so that the worlds poor don't have to steal their education?

      The best solution in the short term is to support open sharing of information, open source, creative commons, anything thats open is good. Censorship is wrong period. I don't know how Americans can complain about censorship in China, but then want to economically censor China with patents and intellectual property garbage. I also dislike the fact that people complain that the poor arent educated, but then rig the economy to prevent the poor from being able to afford it.

      One of the moves the Democratic party needs to make is to embrace open idea sharing, open cultre, and free information. Part of being a Democrat is protecting the commons because the commons represent what humanity owns as a group vs what the individual owns. Let the Republican party stand up for the individual, let the Democratic party stand up for the people, and both sides can be happy. Democrats need to stop pandering to big companies and protect the commons.

      •  There is a constitutional basis for this argument (none / 1)

        You say:
        In my opinion intellectual property is only valueable if it speeds progress.

        I mention that the clause in the constitution creating patents and copyrights reads:

        The Congress shall have Power To ... promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

        In other words, the constitutional purpose of copyright and patent is to speed progess.  Says so, right there.  Section 8, clause 8.  So not only do I agree with you, apparently so do the founding fathers.

        "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

        by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:00:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then why are people being sued? (none / 0)

          Why exactly are people actually being sued then? Does P2P and sampling not count as progress in the music industry?
          •  Not according to the RIAA it isn't (none / 0)

            Our current goverment- including, I comment, the SCOTUS, has forgotten this little clause.  Increasing the term of already issued copyrights does nothing to promote the sciences or usefull arts.  Lengthing the terms on future copyrights may or may not encourage progress, that's open to debate.  But it doesn't matter how long you make copyrights, Walt ain't drawing any more cartoons.

            "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

            by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:38:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  How does this fit in? (none / 0)

        Lucian, I know we've bumped heads before, but this shouldn't be one of those times...

        You said:

        And for academics copyright and intellectual property should not exist at all. Everyone knows that knowledge is found and then built on, not owned and sold.
        The company for which I work has a grant from the CDC, an SBIR (Small Business Innovation Research), designed to encourage businesses that wouldn't otherwise produce a product for a health-related market to take a chance. If the product turns out well (makes it through a full 3 phases of peer review and funding), the CDC will assist that business with promoting the product. The business retains all rights to the product.

        Our product relies upon an existing (experimental but effective) clinical protocol that we are modifying and some clinical theories about risk reduction. We have no domain expertise in this field per se - we're working with some academics from the University of Washington on the content side of our software while producing a software engine that we can hopefully produce as a standalone product regardless of how this exact product turns out... (This is also part of the intent of the SBIR - even if the product fails, can the company learn something worthwhile from the work?)

        What rights should the UW and the UW faculty involved (and the other academic institutions and researchers involved) retain to this product? They're intimately involved in the creation of a 'physical' property - our software wouldn't exist without them.

        This seems to me to be a really grey area - I'm curious to hear your thoughts (as well as those of others...).

        It is not reasonable that those who gamble with men's lives should not pay with their own. - H.G. Wells

        by wickerman26 on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:10:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well (none / 0)

          You should have exclusive rights to profit on what you make. You do not have the right to control how we use what you make.

          Does this make sense? Our fair use and personal freedoms must be balanced with your ability to profit. If you cannot profit without reducing our freedoms then your product is not worth it. This is like telling a person they should give up constitutional rights for no reason. "Well if you want better security, you better give up your privacy".  No, its not either or. We want privacy and security. I want profitability AND fair use.

          •  The problem here (none / 0)

            Is that the argument being made- by the RIAA, MPAA, and many others- is that to make a profit from the work, they must have more or less unlimited control over how you use the work.  And limitation of this unlimited right hurts the economic incentive of creators, which will lead to impoverished musicians and a society devoid of creativity, if not the end of civilization itself.  I'm not exagerating the language here- more like paraphrasing.

            "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

            by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:41:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thats BS (none / 0)

              I am a musician. The RIAA does not make all musicians rich, it simply makes the top 1% rich. You shouldnt think of this issue as a Republican, this is something that as a Democrat should be obvious. P2P = Power 2 the people. Musicians actually profit just as much from P2P as they did from radio and MTV before it, and P2P has better and fairer distribution so that people with real talent are more likely to rise to the top.
              •  We're in agreement! (none / 0)

                Well, except for making the top 1% rich.  It's actually much less than that.  There are only a few dozen "big name" platinum albulms per year.  And the majority of those aren't making their musicians rich.  See this article by Courtney Love, Janis Ian's article on  the topic, watch VH1's story on TLC, etc.

                Piracy- also known as exposure, is a god-send for 99.999% of the musicians and other artists out there.

                "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

                by bhurt on Thu Feb 03, 2005 at 07:04:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I see part of it (none / 0)

            and I get the balancing act - I think that's most of what is missing from the system as it exists now...

            Using this as a point of departure, does fair use extend to decompiling an application and implementing your own version of it? Isn't prohibiting that kind of use a legitimate control? In order for me to make a profit, don't I need to exercise some degree of control over that kind of 'how'? (I guess maybe I'm having trouble seeing how decompilation and reverse engineering isn't a kind of 'how', using your above statement...)

            Ultimately, my impression is that the answer is a matter of degree, not a matter of absolutes... What is clear to me is that currently the laws and processes around property rights (intellectual and otherwise) are being slanted to the benefit of large companies and are being used to stifle innovation and competition; I don't know if a universal application of one of the Open Source-style philosophies will prevent that...

            It is not reasonable that those who gamble with men's lives should not pay with their own. - H.G. Wells

            by wickerman26 on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 11:00:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Reverse Engineering: a pro's prospective (none / 0)

              Speaking as a pro, reverse engineering isn't nearly the threat most people think it is.  Forget "Paycheck".  The problem with reverse engineering to "steal" a product is that one, generally reverse engineering is harder than normal "forward" engineering, and two, once you're done reverse engineering the other guy's product, you still have to forward engineer your own.  If all you want to do is compete with the other guy, swing past his booth at the next tradeshow and grab copies of all of his marketing literature (don't bother talking to the sales weasles).  The brochures will give you all the important ideas in five minutes of reading, allowing you to skip directly to the forward engineering part and skip a whole bunch of otherwise useless work.  Unless there is some major new innovation, at which point normal patent protection applies (the opening sequence of Paycheck, for example- that second company would get nailed with a patent violation.  Not being able to prove how the technology got from one point to the next isn't necessary).

              The only time that reverse engineering is worth it is for compatibility's sake.  If all you want to do is write a word processor, five minutes with the marketing lit for MS Word will tell you the major features you need, now go start writting code.  If you want your word processor to be able to read and/or write MS Word files, now reverse engineering is your only hope.

              So, my personal feeling is that reverse engineering should be a gaurenteed right of fair use.  As a programmer, I can only hope my competitors are reverse engineering my code, because that means that either a) they're stupid and doing unnecessary work (while they're reverse engineering my old code, I'm busy writting new code and new features, and making lots of money to sales they aren't making because they don't have a product), or b) that my product is so popular that they feel the need to be comptabile with me.  Either way, I'm in good shape.

              "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

              by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 01:16:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  An interesting perspective (none / 0)

                Having done some reverse engineering myself, yeah - it's a lot of work... And you're right - an idea can be better stolen from brochures than anything else (apart from the theft of source code, of course).

                It's been interesting (in a good way) watching us transform from a services vendor to a software vendor...

                It is not reasonable that those who gamble with men's lives should not pay with their own. - H.G. Wells

                by wickerman26 on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 01:59:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Source code indeed. (none / 0)


                  If you want to hurt your competitors, leak your source code to them. It will be wholly incompatible with anything they have developed themselves, and they will waste countless man-hours trying to get some use out of it.
            •  My Opinion is (none / 0)

              Unless you sell the product you come up with, fair use allows you to do anything you want with it.

              IF you buy a chair and you decide to eat the chair, no one stops you, so why should a person have the right to say you cannot tell or show anything about what you've just purchased and instead you only purchase the right to use it in the way they say? It's like buying a chair or a car with cameras in it telling you to only use it to drive to work. It's like renting a chair and being told only you should sit in it because only you paid the license.

              I don't think we should need a license for music, what next? a license for water? air? People act like music made in the past isnt any good but without copyright we'd have access to so much more music that the industry would be flooded by great music from the past that perhaps we couldnt afford. Also because music is made from sampling, the less copyright, the more new music is made because musicians sample old songs to make new ones.

              So when it comes to file sharing, I support the sharing of music.

    •  A good point (none / 1)

      and one I forgot to make.  The "Tragedy of the Commons" doesn't apply to ideas.  You can't over-use an idea like you can over-graze a pasture.  Rather, the more an idea is used, the more usefull it becomes- it's as if the more cows you grazed on a peice of land, the faster the grass grows.  This, however, turns the logic of private ownership on it's head- the more people who use the idea, the more valuable it becomes, but the more you charge for the idea, the fewer people who use it, and the less valuable it becomes.

      Oh, and it's quite possible to learn from a compiled program.  I do it all the time.  There are several sequences of binary (well, hex) digits I simply recognize at this point.  And it's a fairly simple job to convert the binary into a more readble assembly language, which I definately read.  I have before, and likely will again, disassemble code to figure out how it works (I also tend to disassemble my own code to see what the compiler made of it).  Yeah, not a lot of people do this- but not a lot of people read ancient sanskrit either.  More people read x86 assembly than sanskrit would be my guess- and yet, sanscrit is coverable by copyright.

      What should not be possible- and this is another good point I forgot to make- is for the same thing to have more than one "owner".  Software copyright is a good thing (once we reform copyright)- software patents are just a fundamentally bad idea.  This is another thing that has changed.  The blueprint to the engine is covered by copyright, the engine itself by patent.  We need to return to this dichotomy.

      Love the sig, BTW.

      Brian

      "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

      by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 09:52:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Compiled Programs (none / 0)

        Agreed about software patents in their current form. I think patenting the compiled software is logical and reasonable, though - it seems, to me, to be analogous to patenting the engine.

        As for disassembling code, that is true. However, it's really hard to learn about high-level details and techniques like object hierarchies from it, which is really one of the harder things to learn.

        •  That's a Bad analogy (none / 0)


          greed about software patents in their current form. I think patenting the compiled software is logical and reasonable, though - it seems, to me, to be analogous to patenting the engine.

          Is compiling a program like building an engine- or like translating a book into another language?  I'd argue it's more like the former.  People still program in assembly language, and even a touch of machine code now and again.  In the linux 2.4.26 kernel, check out line 293 of arch/i386/kernel/head.S as an example of a little bit of machine code programming, in an entire file of assembly code programming.

          This is an important distinction.  If you translate Eric Flint's book into German, Eric Flint (and not you) still owns the copyright.  If you build an engine from my blueprints, you and not I own the newly built engine.

          "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

          by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:53:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Eric Flint's Book (none / 0)

            Yes, if I translate the book into German, he owns the copyright... But I own the copy of the translated book. And while people still program in assembly language, that doesn't mean I can learn anything useful about programming, say, lexical analyzers from reading the assembly language code of a lexical analyzer. But I also probably couldn't learn much from the C code for it that flex produces.

            I think the meaningful way to handle this is - predictably - to steal a phrase from the Free Software Foundation. Allow people to copyright the "preferred form for modification". In other words, if your program's written in C, you can copyright the C form. If it's written in assembly or - god forbid! - straight in machine code, you can copyright that.

            Come up with some other way of protecting the redistribution of the executable. The problem with applying copyright there is that executing the program - reading it into memory - involves, legally, making a copy. And there is legal precident from the '80s saying that this is a copyright violation, which is the backdoor used for the one-sided unnegotiable unsigned packs of rights infringement called "EULAs".

            •  No, you can't (none / 0)

              You're right- it's hard to learn much about lexical anyalysis from reading the assembly language output by a lexical analyzer.  Nor can you learn much about confucian philosophy.  The question is not "can you learn this specific thing", the question is "can you  learn anything usefull?"

              EULAs are a completely different case- although in many ways they are trying to serve the same purpose.  Note that one of the reforms I'd like to see for copyright is a strong statement of fair use.  Piddly things like "copying" the program from disk to memory, or uninstalling it on one computer and installing it on another, should be legal fair use rights.  

              Note that "fair use" isn't the invention of a liberal actvist judge- it arises from the first admendment right to free speech.  The argument was "if I have to right to say or print whatever the heck I want, why can't I say or print exactly the same as he does?"  The balancing act between these two different clauses of the constitution lead to the concept of fair use.  The destruction of fair use is a direct assault on free speech.

              One other note I will make- EULA's have force now primarily because no one has really challenged them.  The one time they did end up in front of a judge, the judge ruled that the EULA was invalid, and right of first sale applied.

              I am a proponent of the GPL- but my basic belief is that the GPL has such economic and social advantages that it will (sooner or later- looks like sooner currently) completely dominate, assuming no radical rewrite of the laws (i.e. the Make Illegal Cooperative Radical Open Source or Free Technologies act gets passed).  I don't think we need to enthrone the GPL into law- all we need to do is make sure it's not aritificially excluded.

              "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

              by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 01:43:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Patenting software? No no no no no (none / 0)

          Software patents stifle innovation. One of the ways Microsoft is trying to kill Linux is by patenting as many software processes as they can, then using the threat of suing small developers who can't afford the defense to force them out of the software market. And at its core, Linux and most free software projects are nothing but small developers who want to create software that benefits everyone.

          Luckily IBM, with the biggest patent portfolio in the world, likes Linux and is keeping it relatively safe from patent warfare. For now, anyway.

          The EU is debating this issue right now. Some of the member states, most notably Poland lately, have seen what's happened with software patents in the US and are resisting increasing lobbying pressure by Europe's software industry.

          groklaw.net is a good site to look at for views on software patenting. The short argument is, fundamentally software is nothing but a set of algorithms, and algorithms are not supposed to be patentable.

    •  Not quite (none / 0)

      the reason Windows succeeded was because Microsoft made agreements with computer manufacturers that specified that they would pay Microsoft a certain amount for every computer sold, regardless of whether the computer had Windows or not. This removed any incentive for manufacturers to do anything other than ship Windows. Customers came to expect Windows on their machines when they bought it, and now, curiously, if you want a Windows-capable computer without Windows, you either have to buy it on special order from a major manufacturer (in which case I think you still end up paying the "Windows tax") or buying it from a small retailer who sells "white box" machines that they put together themselves.

      Actually the latter isn't such a bad idea, because it keeps the money in the local community rather than sending it away to Sioux Falls or Austin or some other faraway place. Hard to do when you're buying a laptop, though.

      The above may be somewhat of an oversimplification, but that's basically the way it happened.

  •  Belated Tip Jar (4.00 / 7)

    Tips here (sorry for the delay)

    "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

    by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 09:36:03 AM PDT

  •  Oh Geeez ! Where to Begin !! (none / 0)

    Let's Start with the Framing on Definition of 'Property'

    But the fact is that the land is owned by someone, always has been (at least since we took it away from the natives), and always will be

    Oh really ??!!  Well your convenient and biased notions of what is considered 'property' and what belongs to the 'people' are about as Westernized and capitalist as anyone indoctrinated by Disney could hope for.  I dont think American Indians living here for centuries carried deeds of trust on the land they lived on.  And in many nations, there are limitations or bans on private ownership of property in certain places deemed to be accessible to all (e.g., along public beaches).  Whereas, the concept of 'intellectual property' is universally accepted by all modern nations and has been for quite some time.

    This isn't the case with copyright and patents- there is no place you can go to look up who owns any given piece of "Intellectual Property" (or if, indeed, it's owned at all) and how to contact them.

    ASCAP, BMI, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, Harry Fox, the U.S. Copyright Office can all help you identify owners.

    This, by the way, is different from how Copyright worked in 1970.  Remember that I said that there were multiple different possible implementations, and that we had changed implementations in the last 40 years?  This is one way.  Back in the old days, for copyright to be applicable, you had to register your work with the Library of Congress

    The Good old days never were

    The United states was pratically the only country in the world that did not sign on to the universally accepted standard of copyrights coming into existence at the time of the work's creation. It exposed creators to risk of having their creations infringed without recourse.

    Now the segue

    This is as good a place as anywhere to segue into the whole "But think of the poor starving children, er, artists!" argument.  Remember that I'm a programmer- I make my living the same way as Britney Spears does, I just don't make quite as much money at it

    I'm not a big fan of her's, but as far as I know Britney Spears makes her money from singing music, not writing music. If Britney, like many artists, sings music that others create, her money comes from getting paid to tour around the world.  the people who write the music she sings are damn well entitled to be compensated for others using their valuable work.

    Yes, copyrights are a limited monopoly and they SHOULD be.  People who create work are entitled to protect it and get PAID for it just like any other artisan.

    •  Singing? Writing? Difference? (none / 0)

      Writing a song, and performing that song, are both instances of a copyrightable work. I think you're making a distinction without a difference here.
      •  From a technical stanpoint (none / 0)

        I understand the point he's trying to make.  Public performance and copyrights are - in the industry - considered different "rights" and different payment mechanisms kick in when those rights are used.

        Being separate allows the author of a Brittany Spears song to still get paid when the song is performed, even if it's a Metallica cover.

        "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

        by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:17:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh yeah, I understand that part (none / 0)

          Just from the way I was reading it, though, it sounded like he was trying to equate writing the song with writing software, but not with performing the song. They're all copyrightable, and should be. Otherwise, when someone starts selling bootleg Britney CDs, the record label and the songwriter would be able to take the bootlegger to court and Britney would be left out of the loop, which would of course be unfair to her.

          Or maybe it's just early enough that the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet and my synapses just aren't quite firing. (More evidence of that: I just said something about Britney Spears, and not an ounce of snark in it. Amazing!)

    •  Various Responses (none / 1)

      You say:
      Well your convenient and biased notions of what is considered 'property' and what belongs to the 'people' are about as Westernized and capitalist as anyone indoctrinated by Disney could hope for.

      Wether our current legal theories of property as applied to land and physical objects are the only possible way things can be (they're not), or or good or bad, is irrelevent.  This is the common understanding of the term 'property' in this country.  These are the implicit assumptions being made by people when copyright and patents are called "property".  Not just me- the vast majority of Americans, Europeans, Asians, South Americans...


      ASCAP, BMI, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, Harry Fox, the U.S. Copyright Office can all help you identify owners.

      Of registered copyright owners.  This is one of the things that has changed in the last couple of decades.  Now, the second the work of art is created, it's copyrighted- wether it's registered with anyone or not.  You don't have to distribute it- you can lock it away in a vault and it's still copyrighted.  Therefor, the vast majority of copyrighted works at this point are not registered.

      Hypothetical situation, but one analogous to real situations that are occurring.  You decide to make a documentary on blogging at the turn of the century.  You film an interview with Kos at his desk.  On the screen behind him, completely accidentally, is this diary right here- copyright by me, incidentally.  Now, to distribute the film, you need not just your permission, not just Kos' permission, but my permission as well.  Of course I haven't registered my copyright- it's a dKos diary for pete's sake!  And I've changed my email address and my physical address and moved to paraguay to raise goats.  You're screwed.  Of course, if you go ahead and release the film, there's a chance that I'll suddenly show up one day, freshly back from Paraguay and smelling faintly of goats, saying "You're violating my copyright- pay me a million dollars!"

      Every square foot of land has a registered owner.  Not every copyrighted work has a registered owner.  Copyright is not property.

      Yes, copyrights are a limited monopoly and they SHOULD be.  People who create work are entitled to protect it and get PAID for it just like any other artisan.

      Not arguing that.  Hint: what do I do for a living?  It's my dinner as well we're talking about here.  Nor do I begrudge the electric company it's profit.  But unregulated monopolies are a diaster for society as a whole.  Yes, artists deserve compensation for their works- but not unlimited compensation.

      "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

      by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:26:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not to get technical again... (none / 0)

        ...but your example on dKos would be contingent upon the Terms of Use and any member agreements Kos has posted on this website.

        Also, in the instance of this documentary, that's why you have insurance to cover any claims against the documentary.  Most times you're pretty good to go if you've shown a good faith effort to find and contact the current rights holder of the work you're attempting to clear.

        I understand your point, though.  

        "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

        by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:32:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You are correct (none / 0)

      The diary touches on some interesting points but ultimately makes a hash of explaining IP law.

      You're right about the good old days that never were.  I'd add something else.  Not ony did the U.S. not sign onto many of the early international copyright treaties, it didn't honor most international copyrights until the 20th Century.  That's right. the U.S. was a pirate nation, much as China or Indonesia are perceived to be today.

      But there is a separate copyright in a sound recording, which is what Brittany Spears would presumably have. Both the copyright owner of the composition (the songwriter) and the copyright owner of the sound recording (the artists and possibly producer and label, depending) have public performance rights for their works.

      •  On Sound Recordings (none / 0)

        Yes, the sound recording is a separate copyright. Sorry if my post didn't make that clear distinction.  However, it's quite rare for a recording artist, even of Britney Spears stature <ahem !> to own the sound recording rights on records that they record.  It's usually held by the label.  The point I was trying to make is that it's not the actual recording artist who is most protected by copyright laws but the lyricists and composers, as well as those who own sound recording rights.
        •  Point taken (none / 0)

          although I suspect in reality her rights in her recording are whatever are spelled out in her contract. If she's got a good attorney (and by now she should be able to afford one) she will no doubt have more control over her recordings than she did when she started out in the business, if she's like most recording artists.
        •  Now that's MY beef with the music industry (none / 0)

          I know it's common practice for the label to own the recording, but frankly I think it should be the property of the artist.  Loved it in the movie Ray when they covered this issue.

          "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

          by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 11:04:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Even that is a gross over-simplification (none / 0)

          Especially for contracts that were signed before labels got smart and started inserting language about future media, etc.  

          For instance, did an artist in 1978 sell his or her entire copyright to reproduce the sound recording or just the right to reproduce LPs, cassettes and 8-tracks?  What happens when CDs come out?  What happens when the label wants to sell the songs on iTunes?

          This is very fact specific.

          As for Brittany, she is entitled to royalties based on the rights attached to her sound recordings.  Whether she "owns" the sound recordings is the sort of detail that only a lawyer would be interested in...and even then it is a grey area.  She gets paid every time a record sells.  She gets paid based on how often her song is played at weddings.  She gets paid when it is downloaded from the iTunes music store. No doubt she retains the right to veto the placement of her songs in commercials, TV shows or films.

          For most people this is tatamount to "owning" the rights.

          •  Ummm.... (none / 0)

            Again, just to be technical...

            when a song is played on the radio, at weddings, etc this is part of public performance rights.  When it is sold it is part of mechanical rights.  Who owns the sounds recordings is NOT just a matter lawyers would be interested in, but the artist is also keenly interesting in these issues (see the comment I made about Ray Charles above).

            Receiving royalties through contractual relationships is not tantamount to owning rights - they are very different areas, especially when you get into the issue of creative control.

            Regarding future media, it depends as you correctly state on the specific reading of the contract.  If the contract does not contain the phrase "for all media now known or hereafter invented" or similar legalese, the rights not specifically granted are owned by the rights holder.

            "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

            by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 11:31:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Okay (none / 0)

              Look, Brittany Spears walks into a studio and records a song (in this fantasy hypothetical, we will pretend it occurs in one day without vocal overdubs, etc) At the moment Brittany records the song - let's call it "Flavor of the Moment" - she is the author of the sound recording and has the full panoply of copyright rights that are granted under the law. Right?

              You are correct that receiving royalties through contractual relationships is not tatamount to owning rights.  But that wasn't my point.  I was pointing out that if you transfer some but not all of your statutory rights then the word "owns" becomes decidedly unhelpful to a lay person - as most people at dKos are.  

              Now, depending on the language in Brittany's contract she will have transferred some or all of her copyright rights in "Flavor of the Moment" to the record company.  As we both agree, that will depend on the specific language of the contract.  Fine.

              Among other rights, Brittany Spears likely retains the right to make derivative works - works based on the original sound recording (although the record company likely will retain some rights in those derivative works).  The record company can sell copies of her record.  They can't let Flavor Flav record a rap part over the track and sell it as "Flavor Flav of the Moment (remix)" without Brittany's permission.

              As I also said, Brittany likely has control over licensing the use of the recording for films, etc.  Thus, Brittany isn't merely receiving royalties.  She continues to exercise (contractually limited) control over the use of the sound recording.  

              Given a situation such as this, is it helpful to say Brittany "owns" the right to the sound recording?  Is it helpful to say the recording company does?  I'd argue that it is a lot less helpful - unless you are making an actual legal argument - to say what an artist "owns" than to say what they can actually do.  And to know what Brittany can actually do, you need to read her contract.

              •  Industry practice vs common sense (none / 0)

                Yes, you have a great point: Brittany should own this sound recording but for the fact that more often than not she'll have a contract with her label handing her rights to the sound recording over to them.  

                This has been standard practice in the American music industry, and something I strongly disagree with.

                Brittany does not technically own the "full panoply of copyright rights that are granted under the law", even if she does own the recording.  The lyricist owns the words.  The composer owns the song.  Now, if Brittany is all of these people she also owns all of these rights, and if not, not.

                I'll give it to ya on what is helpful for laypeople - I've been involved in this stuff far too long and forget how indecipherable this stuff can sound.

                I think a good way of saying it is this (and I expect there's most people in this thread who will hate me for phrasing it like this): Brittany is inherently vested in the rights to her created work, therefore the rights are hers to own or give away.

                "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

                by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 12:55:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for this diary (none / 0)

    Getting the terminology right is one of the keystones to a debate, and I feel like we need to get a debate started on harmonizing the rights of copyright holders to profit from or otherwise control their work with the rights of the public to fair use and to eventually incorporate the work into the fabric of our culture.

    I was thinking about this last night, on the heels of the "Eyes on the Prize" thread, and you've put it into words for me. Thanks.

    •  A major problem with this frame, however... (none / 0)

      ...is that it melds calls for erasure of all intellectual property protection, as some have maintained in this thread should happen.  This is not the author's point.

      I'm very into intellectual property reform (again, extending beyond copyrights because I feel there are some areas of right of publicity which violate the first amendment), but not intellectual property erasure.

      No reform arguments are going to be taken seriously by most of the world if they are allowed to contain arguments of intellectual property erasure.  This is the most detrimental part of the entire discussion on IP reform.

      "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

      by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:24:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's mainly a strawman argument (none / 1)

        Yes, there are some people who beleive that (as a previous commenter who may have forgotten the /snark) that "Intellectual Property is Theft".  Even if that commenter was being snarky, there are people who beleive it.  But it's primarly highlight by the proponents of ever strengthing copyright and patent laws as a straw man argument- or more correctly, a false dichotomy.

        You see it in other areas as well- Communism being used to smear everyone to the left of Adolph Hitler being the most obvious example.  Just like there is room between laissez faire capitalism and communism, there is room between unlimited copyright and the abolition of copyright.  But for the proponents of unlimited copyright (and laissez faire capitalism), it's usefull to pretend there isn't.

        "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

        by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:33:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Absolutely, but MY point is... (none / 0)

          ...why reinforce the strawman?  

          Here's where I'm coming from on this: I am for IP reform as I feel that the DMCA and arbitration procedures are eroding first amendment protections for people especially to speak out against rights holders.

          However, I do not want to set the expectation level that rights are vested primarily in the government and then licensed to the individual.  I think this would present too much of an oppty for the government to engage in censorship.  I think IP should be viewed as the rights vested in the creator that then - as ineligantly as I'm phrasing this - the creator cedes to the public domain after a reasonable time.

          Now, we can go back and forth on what reasonable is...but I get very concerned when people attempt to say that creators are not inherently vested with the rights to their works.  That's where I draw the line, and where a lot of people who would be sympathetic toward copyright reforms would also draw the line.

          "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

          by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 10:45:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I try not to reinforce the straw man (none / 0)

            I'm a Democrat, and I already have a brain- I'm more of a cowardly lion sort anyways...

            I really do wish this strawman would go away.  But every time the issue gets brought up, so does the straw man.

            Including, I comment, this time.

            "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

            by bhurt on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 11:01:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I understand the frustration... (none / 0)

              ...but your diary is about framing this issue, and I think if you deride the term "property" it will sound to many people that you are immediately calling for the erasure of IP rights.  The frame you are proposing, in my opinion, reinforces the strawman.

              Now...if you keep the rhetoric on reform that's different.  Everyone knows the system needs reform.

              "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

              by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 11:08:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Property (none / 0)

                The problem is that, unless we fight the use of the term "Intellectual Property", we buy the "ideas are owned" frame and all it's connotations. The "property" is the temporary monopoly, not the ideas. Using the phrase "Intellectual Property" implies that not only can ideas be owned by someone (who can say who can use them and how), but that the government has no right to move ideas into the public domain.

                Ideas aren't property.

                We can't tolerate the proliferation "Intellectual Property" frame any more than we can tolerate the proliferation of the "pro-life" frame or the "anti-American" frame or any of the other frames the right wing's pulled out over the course of the last four decades.

                •  First of all (none / 0)

                  "Intellectual property" isn't a marketing buzz word or right-wing frame.  It is a legal definition of a body of rights pertaining not just to copyright, trademarks and patents, but also the rights of publicity and the rights of privacy.  

                  Therefore, "intellectual property" includes not only the laws pertaining to created works but also persona (and I would hope everyone here would agree that people do have vested ownership rights in their own persona).  In this specific area of the law, intellectual property rights also speak to the rights of privacy: the ability of an individual to prevent a corporation from using their image or persona to advertise or market a product without their consent.

                  THe ownership issue involved here is honestly not one of ideas but of created works.  Created works can be owned by the individual: for instance, if I take a photograph of someone and develop the photograph, I own the photograph.

                  Where I believe the problem occurs is where intellectual property rights are allowed to supercede - either through law or through practice - the first amendment and the common public good.  THIS is where the common ground for reform can be found between rights holders, creators and the general public.

                  Wanting to eradicate the words "intellectual property" send the message specifically to the legal community that what you are talking about is doing away with an entire body of law that goes beyond copyrights and patents, and includes common law and other rights such as the rights of privacy and the rights of publicity.

                  In other words: it turns off folks who may potentially be your allies.  That's why I think it's a bad idea.

                  "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

                  by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 11:55:50 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You Are Mistaken (none / 0)

                    "Intellectual property" isn't a marketing buzz word or right-wing frame. It is a legal definition of a body of rights pertaining not just to copyright, trademarks and patents, but also the rights of publicity and the rights of privacy.

                    I'm afraid you're mistaken. According to Did You Say "Intellectual Property"? It's a Seductive Mirage by Richard Stallman:

                    According to Professor Mark Lemley, now of the Stanford Law School, the widespread use of the term "intellectual property" is a fad that followed the 1967 founding of the World "Intellectual Property" Organization, and only became really common in the past few years. (WIPO is formally a UN organization, but in fact it represents the interests of the holders of copyrights, patents and trademarks.)

                    Also, you're mistaken about some legal/philosophical issues.

                    THe ownership issue involved here is honestly not one of ideas but of created works. Created works can be owned by the individual: for instance, if I take a photograph of someone and develop the photograph, I own the photograph.

                    You own the instance of the photograph. But you don't have exclusive rights to the image and composition, nor exclusive reproduction rights, in the absense of copyright. I can take a photograph of the same thing, or copy your photograph, without actually depriving you of anything. Thus, you do not own the created work, merely that particular copy of the created work.

                    As for sending messages, any attempt to destroy a frame will turn those that have invested into that frame against you. So you can either leave the frame in place - and, in this case, simply deal with the fact that copyright law will reflect the notion that people can exclusively own ideas and concepts that is embodied in the language - or you can acknowledge that people aren't going to like you for it and start trying to destroy the frame.

                    For reference, Richard Stallman has been fighting the idea of intellectual property for decades now. Quite a lot of corporate content cartel types really hate him, and he scares businessepeople... But he's also slowly but surely winning. Professor Lawrence Lessig has been doing the same thing in a slightly less in-your-face manner, and has still attracted a lot of hatred for his views.

                    •  Actually... (none / 0)

                      ...Harvard Professor of Law William W. Fisher III places the concept of property in the discourse of trademark around 1849 in the case of Amoskeag Manufacturing Company v. Spear, and he places the term "intellectual property" as being in use shortly after the second world war (ironically when the body of law determining rights of publicity and privacy was being developed)...

                      ...but I digress...

                      My point here is not to discuss the history of the term (which Dr. Fisher does a far better job than I ever could), but to simply point out that this is now an accepted legal definition, it does encompass more than copyrights, patents and trademarks and to attempt to radically cease this phrase is to put into question this entire body of law...

                      I don't disagree with you in your example of the photograph except for the following assertion:

                      "I can...copy your photograph, without actually depriving you of anything."

                      I have to strongly disagree with this statement. If I am a photographer and you copy my photograph and distribute it without my consent or without compensating me, you have deprived me of a vital source of my livelihood.

                      But lots of luck in alienating all those people in your attempt to change this language.  As for me, I'm more concerned about practical reform of existing laws that can help people now.

                      "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

                      by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 12:47:50 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Right to Profit? (none / 0)

                        I have to strongly disagree with this statement. If I am a photographer and you copy my photograph and distribute it without my consent or without compensating me, you have deprived me of a vital source of my livelihood.

                        Ah, so you now have a right to profit of some kind? Or is it a right to make a living at whatever you chose, irregardless of the economics of the situation? The livelihood argument is not a valid one. Using that argument, the only logical conclusion is that copyrights should be perpetual and have very strict penalties for violating them, as anything else "deprives me of a vital source of my livelihood". Or you arrive at bizarre result, like having some sort of fundamental right or guarantee to profit from an endeavour.

                        It's also worth nothing that the 1850s are around the same time that the concept of corporate personhood got snuck into the American legal system. That doesn't make "Intellectual Property" any more accurate a term. And you will not get any positive change as long as you refer to the laws as property laws.

                        And again, we do have a big-name ally in this fight. Ever heard of Professor Lawrence Lessig?

                        •  Wow, did I hear stawman? (none / 0)

                          The livelihood argument is not a valid one. Using that argument, the only logical conclusion is that copyrights should be perpetual and have very strict penalties for violating them, as anything else "deprives me of a vital source of my livelihood". Or you arrive at bizarre result, like having some sort of fundamental right or guarantee to profit from an endeavour.

                          So, there is NO middle road.  Either we must eradicate copyrights or leave them in perpetuity.  Are you really sure you want to make this argument?

                          Cuz Lessig doesn't, and neither do the vast majority of intellectual property lawyers and judges in the world.

                          "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

                          by grannyhelen on Wed Feb 02, 2005 at 02:23:07 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  No Strawman (none / 0)

                            I merely said that the livelihood argument is invalid, as it inevitably and invariably leads to one of the above. I believe that there are other suitable arguments for reasonable-term copyrights with limited infringement scopes. The most notable one, and the one I believe the founding fathers used, was that copyright (not "intellectual property", as they did not believe that ideas could be owned) is a social contract maintaining a delicate balance. They saw it as balancing between encouraging authors to release new works by giving them a limited-term monopoly on the reproduction of those works and the interests of the public, IE, the free reproduction and sharing of culture.

                            And I'm also not saying that we should eradicate copyright. That is a straw man. I'm saying that we should stop referring to it as "intellectual property" because it is not property. It has no features in common with property, and attempting to give it those features destroys the delicate balance mentioned above by swinging things too far towards the interests of publishers and away from the interests of both authors and the public.

                            As for that Rosen interview, remember that she's giving it to Wired Magazine, and is 100% a PR person. She knows that the RIAA has serious image problems with "geeks" because of their ham-handed attempts to destroy independent music distribution online and assorted other hideous abominations. (Do some readings on the SSSCA/CBDPTA) So she's attempting to soften their impression of her by saying she's siding with Lessig... Even though no such agreement is now apparent in the RIAA's actual policies, nor has it ever been. She's just a little more savvy than Jack "VCR = Boston Strangler" Valenti.

                            Also, it's worth noting that there's another problem with making copyrights, trademarks, and patents over into "intellectual property". Releasing a work into the public domain then means that you're letting anyone do anything they want with your property... Which, I believe, constitutes abandonment of your property. Under current IP laws, it may not be possible or legal for an author to voluntarily release his work into the public domain or even adopt a public domain-like license. (Lessig blogged about this a few months back.)

                            •  Well (none / 0)

                              None of us have our livelyhood protected. We can all lose our jobs or be fired, we all have to depend on market conditions. Why shouldnt artists?

                              Why should an artist try to protect profits at the cost of progress? Once again the goal should ultimately be to spread the art first, secondly to increase innovation and progress, and if anyone can profit only the artist should be able to do it.

                            •  This is what I don't understand (none / 0)

                              Many of these ideas I agree with.  However, I don't attack people for wanting to make money with their copyrights - I don't accuse them of feeling "entitled to make a profit" - and I don't try to box them into a corner of making choices between freedom and...well, whatever term the opposite of freedom is that is used to have a synonymous meaning to "copyright".

                              The style of the arguments being made troubles me, because if you keep attacking people whose livelihoods depend on intellectual property - and I'm using this term because it also includes rights of publicity and rights of privacy - or who wish to protect their created works and persona from abuse by corporations through the mechanism of intellectual property - I don't think you'll really get too far in changing much.

                              And it isn't a fair portrayal of where these people are at anyway.  

                              I've frankly never understood the acrimony among the Lessig followers, and I don't think that this belittling style of debate really helps to further his cause.

                              "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

                              by grannyhelen on Thu Feb 03, 2005 at 05:41:19 AM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  Remember my job? (none / 0)

                                The style of the arguments being made troubles me, because if you keep attacking people whose livelihoods depend on intellectual property - and I'm using this term because it also includes rights of publicity and rights of privacy - or who wish to protect their created works and persona from abuse by corporations through the mechanism of intellectual property - I don't think you'll really get too far in changing much.

                                So far in this entire thread, I've seen one- ONE- comment that could be construed as advocating the abolition of copyright (and that may have been a snark, it's unclear).  It's certainly not what I intended to do, as I'm one of the people who makes his livelyhood from "intellectual property".

                                And yet, your response is exactly symptomatic of the problem I'm trying to address.  The assumptiont that there are two sorts of people- those who support copyright/patent being as coercive and powerful as possible, most of whom make their living from "IP", and those who wish to abolish all copyrights and patents, most of whom simply consume copyrighted/patented works and want something for free.

                                This just isn't the case.  A limited time copyright, with strong fair use and first sale rights, and registration requirements, still allows you to make a living selling your work.  In fact, the majority of creators will make more under this law system than they would under the current system, or the more restrictive system we're moving towards- because they will not be artificially locked out of the market.

                                And, to a large extent it doesn't matter if the phrase was invented in 1950 or 1850 or 1995.  It's a bad frame, it's a bad analogy.  And most people reason by analogy.  But that's exactly the argument being made- "Copyright is property!"  "Um, no it's not- it doesn't work like property."  "Then we should change it to work exactly like property- infinite ownership, unlimited rights, etc."  "That's a bad idea, as it shuts down free speech."  "You're one of those whackos who wants to eliminate copyright and make all the musicians starve, aren't you?  Why are you opposed to copyright?"

                                "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

                                by bhurt on Thu Feb 03, 2005 at 07:27:50 AM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  As this is about framing... (none / 0)

                                  ...this is what I'm trying to address.  This isn't the first time I've had this type of debate, and for some reason I've seen more belligerence here than in discussions on things that are frankly more important: the death penalty, infant mortality rates and even the issue of abortion.

                                  The attack line from the Lessig crowd usually goes something like this:

                                  1. How DARE you bring up people's livelihoods in discussions of intellectual property. You obviously hate freedom.

                                  2. How DARE you say that rights should descend to one's heirs.  You obviously don't know anything about the intention of the original framers, and you obviously hate freedom.

                                  3. How DARE you support protections of copyrighted works.  You obviously are misinformed and you obviously hate freedom.

                                  And on and on.

                                  When the discussion of IP descends to this level, the dynamics of the discussion itself reinforces, "...assumption that there are two sorts of people- those who support copyright/patent being as coercive and powerful as possible, most of whom make their living from "IP", and those who wish to abolish all copyrights and patents, most of whom simply consume copyrighted/patented works and want something for free."

                                  Frankly, I don't think that this is any way to bring people over to your side of the argument.  Might I suggest a frame that would actually put reform in the interest of rights holders, along the lines of:

                                  Federal definition and protection of the public domain increases the amount of goodwill among your fan base and means that you don't feel like you have to individually sue everyone who uses your IP without your specific consent.  This will save you TONS of cash in the long run in both administrative and legal fees.

                                  Now, onto the specific language of property in IP rights.  If you phrase things as a "limited monopoly on created works granted by the government"...well, the government taketh and the government giveth away.  Phrasing IP like this opens up the analogy door - I feel - to government censorship of controversial works, and this is why I'm reticent to buy into this "frame".

                                  "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

                                  by grannyhelen on Thu Feb 03, 2005 at 08:06:48 AM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                                  •  As part of the Lessig crowd (none / 0)

                                    First off, I rate this issue more important than debates over infant mortality, the death penal