Daily Kos

Sexism

Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:20:46 PM PDT

Crossposted on my blog, but worth discussion here I think. You know, I don't understand "empowerment" - maybe it's just my gender, but I really don't get it.  If any of the female (or male) readers out there would like to give a shot at explaining it, I would be greatly appreciative, as I think it might go a long way to resolving some of the issues I'm about to engage.

For whatever synchronistic reasons, I've run across a fair number of feminism issues as of late.  Part of it has to do with V-Day, whose message I support but whose tactics, on my campus at least, seem asinine.  Namely, they hung up a bunch of shirts in our commons - they still haven't taken them down, either.  They're just a bunch of old shirts with, I suppose, "empowering" messages painted on them.  Messages that I agree with, mind you, but messages that I still think are stupid to paint on a t-shirt and hang in a university commons for a week.

For example, one shirt declared in bold purple paint that "RAPE = NOT GOOD" - a certainly true statement, but one that I could not help but find out of place on a t-shirt hung a short distance from a grill and a coffeeshop.  In fact, I'm not sure such a simplistic assertion has any real appropriate place: I'm all for condemning violence and rape, but to do it in a blindly declarative manner seems to defeat the purpose of condemning it in the first place.  Those who agree (who, I'd like to think, are the vast majority of people, us evil males included) will just sort of think it an odd truism, and those who disagree will just ignore it.

Which I suppose brings me back to this question of "empowerment", as that seems to be the only possible legitimate purpose of this display.  It will neither dissuade rapists (or abusers or whomever) nor do anything for non-rapists , but I suppose it will just feel good for those who have been victims of such treatment.  And I don't mean to trivialize or otherwise discount that possibility: it's simply something I don't understand.  I suppose the response might be that I never could understand, due to my Y chromosome.

And this open question brings me to something I feel a bit more confident taking a stance on, because the stance is in and of itself an open question.  Harvard recently released a transcript of the controversial comments made by President Summers regarding gender and the sciences/engineering.  For those who don't know, Summers and Ivy League university presidents in general have a history of being academic gadflies.  As chronicled in the amusingly slanted Yale take on the situation, presidents of Harvard, Yale, and other schools have often taken controversial stances, both (generally speaking) positive and negative.  And in any case, it stirs a bit of discussion that is arguably good, even if the original stance wasn't.

Though in this situation I don't think Summer's comments were particularly positive or negative, but simply and honestly inquisitive.  Granted they were stated in a manner and setting where it's rather unsurprising that they trigger controversy, and perhaps Summer didn't really expect or intend for the discussion to take the direction or scope that it has, as some even call for his ouster.  Yet if you look at what he actually said, well:

There are three broad hypotheses about the sources of the very substantial disparities that this conference's papers document and have been documented before with respect to the presence of women in high-end scientific professions. One is what I would call the-I'll explain each of these in a few moments and comment on how important I think they are-the first is what I call the high-powered job hypothesis. The second is what I would call different availability of aptitude at the high end, and the third is what I would call different socialization and patterns of discrimination in a search. And in my own view, their importance probably ranks in exactly the order that I just described.

Okay, very rational, very open, very scientific-method-esque.  Granted some might find some personal distaste for the hypotheses, but as noted in the Harvard Crimson's take (oh how I wish Rochester had a decent student publication), "...the truth cannot be offensive. Perhaps the hypothesis is wrong, but how would we ever find out whether it is wrong if it is "offensive" even to consider it? People who storm out of a meeting at the mention of a hypothesis, or declare it taboo or offensive without providing arguments or evidence, don't get the concept of a university or free inquiry."

Summers goes on:

Now that begs entirely the normative questions-which I'll get to a little later-of, is our society right to expect that level of effort from people who hold the most prominent jobs? Is our society right to have familial arrangements in which women are asked to make that choice and asked more to make that choice than men? Is our society right to ask of anybody to have a prominent job at this level of intensity, and I think those are all questions that I want to come back to. But it seems to me that it is impossible to look at this pattern and look at its pervasiveness and not conclude that something of the sort that I am describing has to be of significant importance. To buttress conviction and theory with anecdote, a young woman who worked very closely with me at the Treasury and who has subsequently gone on to work at Google highly successfully, is a 1994 graduate of Harvard Business School. She reports that of her first year section, there were twenty-two women, of whom three are working full time at this point. That may, the dean of the Business School reports to me, that that is not an implausible observation given their experience with their alumnae. So I think in terms of positive understanding, the first very important reality is just what I would call the, who wants to do high-powered intense work?

Again, very open.  Controversial given the topic, but he ends it with an open question.  He also explicitly brings up women who have competed and succeeded: something his critics seem to overlook.

The second thing that I think one has to recognize is present is what I would call the combination of, and here, I'm focusing on something that would seek to answer the question of why is the pattern different in science and engineering, and why is the representation even lower and more problematic in science and engineering than it is in other fields. And here, you can get a fair distance, it seems to me, looking at a relatively simple hypothesis. It does appear that on many, many different human attributes-height, weight, propensity for criminality, overall IQ, mathematical ability, scientific ability-there is relatively clear evidence that whatever the difference in means-which can be debated-there is a difference in the standard deviation, and variability of a male and a female population.

Guys and girls are different, what blasphemy!  Oh wait, we are different.  We've got different body structures, different genes, different hardware "downstairs", different things on our torso, different traditions and roles, and more I'm sure.  I'm not saying that I agree with the comments made by Summers, but as said above I do think that dismissing things simply because they rub you the wrong way is not prudent.  Also worth noting from that Crimson article is this clarification of Summers controversial hypothesis:

The hypothesis is, first, that the statistical distributions of men's and women's quantitative and spatial abilities are not identical--that the average for men may be a bit higher than the average for women, and that the variance for men might be a bit higher than the variance for women (both implying that there would be a slightly higher proportion of men at the high end of the scale). It does not mean that all men are better at quantitative abilities than all women! That's why it would be immoral and illogical to discriminate against individual women even if it were shown that some of the statistical differences were innate.

I support equal opportunity, both practically and philosophically.  I also believe that both genders, as well as all races and creeds and sexual orientations, are de facto equally capable in almost all practical public societal roles (e.g. jobs and such).  I very much believe that discrimination on such grounds is plainly wrong.  But equal opportunity is not the same as equal results, as once insightfully pointed out by Bill Clinton.  And to scream bloody murder at the suggestion of differences between the genders, somehow mandating a universal equivalence, is just counterproductive for everyone.

Summers concludes:

So my best guess, to provoke you, of what's behind all of this is that the largest phenomenon, by far, is the general clash between people's legitimate family desires and employers' current desire for high power and high intensity, that in the special case of science and engineering, there are issues of intrinsic aptitude, and particularly of the variability of aptitude, and that those considerations are reinforced by what are in fact lesser factors involving socialization and continuing discrimination. I would like nothing better than to be proved wrong, because I would like nothing better than for these problems to be addressable simply by everybody understanding what they are, and working very hard to address them.

Summers conclusion and his plea to be disproven have both been harsly met by critics.  This particular analysis of the piece rejects Summers quite completely, asserting that his request to be disproven was insincere.  I, however, find his request quite sincere, and quite academic as well.  I'm not saying I agree with him or his conclusion (even though his conclusion is mostly a suggestion that more research be done), but I do think that it was intended to cause and resulted in a good discussion on the topic.  His critics are unwittingly doing precisely what he intended, though perhaps with more vitriol than he would have wished.

Despite being forced to apologize and being criticized by the "blogosphere" (both the "Mediagirl" above and on DailyKos), the Harvard administration is standing by him on this one, and rightly so by my estimation.  Granted some of the criticisms being leveled (in the DailyKos thread and elsewhere) are legitimate: Harvard is in many ways a "good old boys club", and it would be interesting to have a female president in many ways.  But the conclusion - that this is cause for Summer's ouster and that there should be a female president simply for the sake of having a female president - completely miss the mark.  Progress is achieved, not through unilateralism, but through the very dialogue provoked by people like Summers.

So, while sexism is still an issue to be grappled with in modern society, I really do feel that many current self-proclaimed feminists (or activists in general, and for issues besides sexism) are taking the wrong tack.  The problems posed by sexism are no longer so direct as to require such direct solutions: instead, the issues are nuanced, and the responses should be as well.  Rather than condemning folks like Summers and blindly promoting everything female, there should be a constructive and open dialogue that isn't afraid to really confront these questions and not just dismiss or bury them.

I realize that my saying this, as a bearer of a Y chromosome (among other things), has the potential to be seen as insensitive or perhaps even chauvinistic.  I have decided to take this risk, as it were, as despite my gender I feel that I have examined this issue in a thorough and fair manner, as best I could at least.  So, thank you for reading, and I really am curious and open to any response.  Please do participate in exactly the dialogue I suggested...

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    •  And Your Point Is? (none / 0)

      I think your diary would benefit from a lot of editing.  You seem to be passionate and distraught, but I'm not sure about what....

      Maybe state in your opening paragraph what you are concerned about and then go from there to explain why????

      Fuzzy only works for pets.

      by NotFuzzy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:24:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's admittedly uncentered (none / 0)

        Nowhere did I claim to have a unified point: notice the generalness of my title.

        Thank you for your feedback, and you're right: I'm not sure about what either.  Suffice it to say that I think a lot of the energy being spent over this issue (and other similar ones) is counterproductive...

        •  Wha? (none / 1)

          You argue that Summers was right to raise the question - to provoke debate. Now you're saying spending energy over this issue is counterproductive.

          Your thesis may not have been perfect but it is a topic that needs hashing in thinking-out-loud discussion.

          I think the diary nazis lose sight of the big picture at dkos.

          •  Not exactly linked (none / 0)

            Though I do agree that the "diary nazis" are bothersome at times.  Still, while I did say both of those things, I said them in different contexts, and that is important.  I am interested in provoking debate, and believe Summers comment was good for doing so.  At the same time, I do think a lot of the energy being spent (and dare I say, much of the energy being directed against me at the moment) is counterproductive.  One can have a discussion with a good ideal that doesn't necessarily work out so well in reality.

            Anyway, thank you.  I do agree that this topic needs hashing out, but I don't think it's going to happen here to be honest.  I'd be willing to bet that another diary on the topic would go much like this one did: a lot of misrepresentation, a lot of unnecessary energy, and a lot of me having to defend myself from false accusations.  That said, I'm glad I did it, as I did learn a few things from the few people who were kind enough to comment in a way that actually responded to my questions and assertions.  But I think that, for now, I'm going to give the topic a rest.  DailyKos is a fine community for many things, but true open dialogue on topics of political correctness and other things that rub people the wrong way is not really one of them.

            I must admit, I'm toying with posting this at that other political Scoop-powered site (right-leaning, much less popular than Kos, but an interesting site nonetheless) to see how it goes there.

            •  Will check it out over there (none / 0)

              I'd like to see the reaction.

              I'll have to re-read all the comments in this diary. Like I said, this is a touchy topic, but the discussion needs to take place out in the open.

              How long had Summers been silently positing his theory about intrinsic ability differences before he aired them publicly? A while I suppose. While I'm disappointed he assumes these differences are innate, I'm glad he did so publicly, rather than claiming a view of equal ability then retracting it "that was just for show, the pc police" in a smoke-filled room.

  •  How about blacks? (none / 0)

         So can Harvard "scientifically" investigate """innate difference of African-American brains""" now? if any science is permitted?
         Ouch.
    •  Ummm, yes (none / 0)

      The whole point of science is to be not beholden to politics, or religion, or anything other than the scientific process.  If it is truly an open and intellectual/rational inquiry, then even if the question itself is controversial the answer/results will be fair and impartial (as I'd be willing to bet they'd be if Harvard or many other academic establishments were to study the topic you suggested - I'd also bet they would find the differences to be negligible - really, it'd actually be a worthwhile study as it'd help refute a lot of racists out there).
      •  I'm biting for one purpose (4.00 / 2)

        The issue is not whether the science should be undertaken - of course it should if the sicentist think it is worthwhile.

        The issue is what does Summers have to do with that? He is not in the business of creating hypothesis for study of genetics and biology.  He's the President of the University.

        And as President of the University, he has some explaining to do about Harvard's problems attracting women for the sciences. You see, while htere is a general problem, Harvard's is worse than most.

        Did you see the NYT's editorial? I think any reasonable attempt to defend Summers MUST address those points. You simply do not here.

        That  in particular is why I object to your title. You don't deal with the issue of sexism in the least.

        Everybody dies alone.

        by Armando on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:19:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not the issue I'm confronting (none / 0)


          The issue is not whether the science should be undertaken - of course it should if the sicentist think it is worthwhile.

          I agree that it's not really an issue, though some (such as Mr. Boyle) seem to think it is.

          The issue is what does Summers have to do with that? He is not in the business of creating hypothesis for study of genetics and biology.  He's the President of the University.

          That's not the issue, or at least not the one I care about.  As I said in a lower response to you, I'm not trying to reach any judgment about Summers here.  I'm simply trying to incorporate what he said into a discussion about sexism/feminism, and use it as a bit of dialogue-kindling.

          And as President of the University, he has some explaining to do about Harvard's problems attracting women for the sciences. You see, while htere is a general problem, Harvard's is worse than most.

          Perhaps, but why is it up to him to explain?  University presidents, by and large, have only one real official role: raising cash.  They don't really set policy, they're just a figurehead that tries to get the big donors.  Harvard may have a systemic problem, but it's not one you can pin on Summers, and in any case it's not one I think you can really pin on anyone or solve immediately.  It's an issue that has improved with time, and I think will continue to do so.  I'm not saying we shouldn't fight to improve the situation, but different problems require different approaches.

          Did you see the NYT's editorial? I think any reasonable attempt to defend Summers MUST address those points. You simply do not here.

          I did not see it prior to writing this: I've now briefly perused it, and might address some of them.  Suffice it to say that, again, I am not defending Summers.  I am using his words as a starting point, and saying that many of his critics seem misguided, but that is a far cry from defending him.  Though I do think that, even though his comments were controversial, he is a far cry from some TV show host.  He did at least frame them in a rather intellectual manner, which is much more than the likes of Jerry Springer do.

          That  in particular is why I object to your title. You don't deal with the issue of sexism in the least.

          Again, objection noted, and again, the title was purposefully general.  I really couldn't think of what else to title it.  I suppose "Feminism" might have been more appropriate, but then I'd have likely come off as even more chauvinistic to the folks who seem to be bothered by my post.

          •  Well (none / 0)

            Since you chose to write 80% of you diary on Summers your comment above seems disingenuous to me.  But, other may disagree with me.

            Nice talking to you.

            Everybody dies alone.

            by Armando on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 11:39:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Did I really? (none / 0)

              Did I really write 80% of my diary on Summers?  Granted I cited him relatively often, and granted he is the central figure in this current instantiation of this dialogue, but that doesn't mean my diary is "about him" - it's about the issue and the dialogue itself.

              There's a difference between talking about somebody's ideas and talking about somebody: for example, philosophers discuss Plato pretty often, but they don't talk much about his actual personal qualities or lifestyle (man-boy love, whatever else).  They talk about his ideas, his words.

      •  You may not want to be called racist (4.00 / 4)

        But that doesn't mean you don't harbour some fundamentally racist attitudes. Like, that "science" is completely objective and dispassionate, and a truly scientific study that found Blacks were, in some respect, inferior to Whites (or vice versa), would simply be objective reporting of pure data.

        There is no such thing as "truly an open and intellectual/rational inquiry"--that's not science, it's not actually anything. Every inquiry begins with a question or a hypothesis, and the question reflects a built-in bias. So "controversial" questions get asked because someone has a hypothesis about the answer. And, take it from me, someone who is absolutely convinced that race is NOT an important determining factor tends not to ask questions about whether it is.

        Asking the question is racist. The data are still just data, but the decision to collect them and interpret them is neither "neutral" nor free from bias. And even the method with which the data are collected may be tainted. Read the history of Stanford-Binet IQ tests and why they are regarded by many as "slanted".

        I would hope that you are simply naive, but I think it unlikely. Everyone I have ever known who has made your arguments has been prejudiced on some level (or at least held captive by somewhat racist social norms), but couldn't acknolwedge it. There's hope though.

        -8.38, -4.97 "...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

        by thingamabob on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 10:27:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  agreed to point (4.00 / 2)

          I remember that in establishing norms of psychological behavior many researchers used to use the most readily available subjects, undergraduate students, who just so happened to be white, usually Protestant but almost always Christian, middle class or higher, MALE.   Thus differences due to race, religion or gender were considered deviant.

          I believe Jules Henry even wrote a book called Even the Rats Were White, but I have not googled to confirm my memory.

          Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

          by teacherken on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 05:09:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  "Fundamentally racist" (none / 1)


          But that doesn't mean you don't harbour some fundamentally racist attitudes. Like, that "science" is completely objective and dispassionate, and a truly scientific study that found Blacks were, in some respect, inferior to Whites (or vice versa), would simply be objective reporting of pure data.

          How exactly is that a "fundamentally racist attitude"?  Does that mean that science in and of itself, and thus the vast majority of practical human knowledge, is racist?

          Yes, I do believe in science.  I think it highly unlikely that a truly scientific study would find any real differences between blacks and whites, but I'm not going to dismiss the question because of that.  As I said, I think such a study would, if anything, be useful to refute racists, as the results would show much of their bigotry to be unfounded.

          And if such a study were truly objective and truly showed significant racial differences, then I'm sorry to say, but so be it (as I said I find such results quite unlikely, but theoretically possible).  I'm willing to accept science, even if it tells me something I don't like.  And if that makes me "fundamentally racist", so be it as well.

          There is no such thing as "truly an open and intellectual/rational inquiry"--that's not science, it's not actually anything. Every inquiry begins with a question or a hypothesis, and the question reflects a built-in bias. So "controversial" questions get asked because someone has a hypothesis about the answer. And, take it from me, someone who is absolutely convinced that race is NOT an important determining factor tends not to ask questions about whether it is.

          Okay, first off I don't think that every hypothesis is a leading or slanted question.  I will agree that many have asked "controversial" questions because they have an agenda, but as I said below in response to ari, that doesn't condemn the process.  People misusing a tool doesn't mean the tool is broken.

          And as for the latter bit, no, I'm afraid I won't "take it from you" - you seem to be trying to deflect the question at this point with a wee bit of bravado.  I will ask questions, even controversial ones, and I know I'm not alone.  I'm not asking them because I have an agenda, I'm not asking them because I'm "fundamentally racist" or because I otherwise think race makes some difference and am attempting to prove it - quite the opposite, in fact.  But I don't think it's proper for science to shy away from these questions just because they're not politically correct.  As I've said, science should be beholden to rationality, nothing more and nothing less.

          Asking the question is racist. The data are still just data, but the decision to collect them and interpret them is neither "neutral" nor free from bias. And even the method with which the data are collected may be tainted. Read the history of Stanford-Binet IQ tests and why they are regarded by many as "slanted".

          Asking the question is just asking the question.  I fail to see how it is inherently racist: I agree that it has been used in a racist manner in the past, but again, that was a problem with those who asked the question, and not the question or science itself.

          I agree that there is plenty of potential for bias, which is all the more reason why this should be asked in a open manner.  I have faith in humanity and in the scientific process, and I believe that people can reach the just conclusion on this topic, and many others.  I don't believe we should shy away from it just because it rubs folks the wrong way, or because it was misused in the past.

          I would hope that you are simply naive, but I think it unlikely. Everyone I have ever known who has made your arguments has been prejudiced on some level (or at least held captive by somewhat racist social norms), but couldn't acknolwedge it. There's hope though.

          Again a bit of bravado.  You know, I'm getting a little sick of being called racist for defending the scientific method.  Please, if you really feel I'm this awful racist person, make your accusations specific.  Tell me precisely how I am bigoted.

          As far as I can tell, I am merely defending the scientific method.  If you're willing to condemn science as racist, then I guess I'll just have to go down with the ship.  At least I'll be in good company.

          •  Addendum (none / 0)

            Re: telling me how I'm racist - please tell me both how precisely I am bigoted, and who I am bigoted against.  Thanks.
          •  Mea culpa and more... (4.00 / 2)

            First, my writing was extremely sloppy at times. I am to blame. Your beliefs about scietific endeavours are, of course, not racist. And when I said "fundamentally racist" I should perhaps have said "incipiently racist" and then provided a direct link to my later arguments.

            And, no, I don't know you and probably deserve lashing with a wet noodle for suggesting that you are a racist. However, I challenge you to name me one, just one, scientifc question (in a sociological or psychological context) that is absolutely free from any beliefs about the possible answers.

            It's not possible, because we are motivated to ask questions by our own proclivities, experience and rational apparatus. "Absolute freedom" is nothingness, because when there is absolutely no reason to do or think anything, all things become equally likely. The fact that we never experience this sort of absolute freedom is because there are built in biases. It is rather like the philosophical problem of Buridan's ass.

            But I'll take my lumps because they're deserved. Not, however, without insisting that scientists recognize that all inquiry starts with a less-than-free proposition.

            -8.38, -4.97 "...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

            by thingamabob on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:59:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks (none / 1)

              And don't worry to much about the lumps: your apology/clarification re: "racist" was more than adequate.

              I certainly agree that any and all scientific questions can and will be interpreted and affected and likewise affect the beliefs and actions of human beings.  In reality, that's much of the purpose of science (that and making technology, I suppose).  And that, I suppose, is why I feel all the stronger that the scientific method should be open and fearless, as it were - fearless of politics, fearless of religion, fearless of anything and everything.  Peer review is critical, of course, but it should all be done within the framework of science itself.  And I really do have faith that humanity (all genders, races, creeds, and whatever else included) has the capability to think rationally and use science to find what is right, true, and even just (plus build cool new hovercars or something, heh).

      •  You really need to read (4.00 / 2)


        the Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould which is about both the flawed science and the racism of people who have asked those questions.
        •  Yes! it's a great book (4.00 / 2)

          He specifically looks at the unconcious (and conscious) assumptions that underlay the development of intelligence testing.

          Science may be rational and logical, but we as people are biased and illogical and irrational. That is where we start from. If we are not rigorously self-critical of our positions and our assumptions, and don't have other people point out our blind spots and unconscious assumptions, then we run the risk of doing logical science from a flawed base.

          "There are no shortcuts to accomplishing constructive social change ... struggle is called 'struggle' for a reason." Ward Churchill

          by CAuniongirl on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 11:54:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agreed entirely (none / 0)

            Which is the purpose of this dialogue, and dialogue in general, and the academic community in general.  Peer review and willingness to change ideas (though sometimes it takes a generation or two) are critical in scientific progress.

            I will have to look up this book, but again, I don't think it condemns the question that's being asked, it merely adds a few caveats.

            •  Read the book before (none / 0)


              saying what you think it says.

              Gould believed strongly in science, but he also understood that politics and bias shape
              science. Particularly in areas like race and gender.

              I read Mismeasure in high school (which probably was before you were born), and I couldn't take IQ and many other tests seriously anymore.

              •  I don't intend to prejudge the book (none / 0)

                I'm just saying that it sounds as if it's identifying problems in people, as you said, and not problems in the scientific method itself.  As such, the questions still aren't condemnable, we just have all the more reason to be open and aware while asking and discussing them.

                Anyway, I really do intend to track down the book.  My reading list is a bit of a deluge, but hopefully I can work it in.

                Though PS - that "probably was before you were born"  remark is totally irrelevant and unnecessary.  Validity and truth of statements has nothing to do with who makes them (e.g. age, gender, whatever else).

        •  I'll look it up, thanks (none / 0)

          But just because those questions have been asked by racist people and answered in flawed and biased ways doesn't make the questions themselves wrong and doesn't condemn science itself.  The questions are still important, and science is still valid.
          •  Epistemology (none / 0)

            There have been many feminist critiques of scientific inquiry. This is an excellent overview and has a fairly comprehensive bibliography. It is titled "Feminist Epistemology and Philosophyof Science" and I think may be helpful because you are asserting that science and rationality are or can be neutral methodologies for the production of truth.

            Here's another way to look at the question: If science had been dominated by women for centuries, would it look the same as it does now? Would the same ways of knowing be privileged? I am not arguing that it would be different or that women have "innate" differences. I am just trying to loosen your faith in science a bit by suggesting how easily things can shift.

            "I still think politics is about who's getting screwed and who's doing the screwing." -Molly Ivins

            by hono lulu on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 11:21:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fair enough (none / 0)

              But it doesn't loosen my faith in science, only in those who practice it.  And I fully acknowledge that there can be and are biases among scientists and within the scientific community.  Yet persistent peer review, time, and liberal application of the scientific method seems to slowly alleviate these problems.  Hence, I would suggest that, for the most part, the science community keeps doing what it's doing.  Progress is being made - not instantly, of course, but if it were instant it wouldn't really be progress.
  •  Sexism? (none / 1)

    Or "Summers is Ok"?  Title is a bit strange in its way. Of course I disagree with you on Summers. But that's documented.

    Everybody dies alone.

    by Armando on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:31:40 PM PDT

    •  Not exactly (none / 0)

      More like "Summers is irrelevant", in terms of any personal qualities or characterizations.  What's important is that he's creating dialogue.

      And yes, the title is a bit strange, but as I replied to a comment above, it's purposeful.  My post is admittedly uncentered, and I acknowledge that.

      •  Irrelevant? (none / 0)

        How is that?  Even by your construct, one I reject, a discussion has begun.  Course he's also Prez of the most prestigious university in the country. Don't follow you at all here.

        Everybody dies alone.

        by Armando on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:13:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hrm (none / 0)

          Well I don't quite follow you either, so I guess we're even.

          When I say "he's irrelevant", I mean that I'm not trying to judge him personally, in a positive or negative fashion.  He is not the fire, he is not even the fuel, he simply happened to be the match.  He is not wholly irrelevant, but judgments about his personal characteristics are (hence I rejected your titling of my piece as "Summers is okay").

          In citing Summers, I simply am trying to have a dialogue on a topic I consider salient.  I am not trying to particularly condemn or condone Summers, aside from saying that his critics are largely misguided.  That doesn't make me a fan, mind you, simply not a jeering critic.

          Anyway, I realize he's an important person, and I'm not meaning to dismiss that either in saying he's irrelevant.  I'm simply saying that my purpose here is not to judge him one way or the other, simply to use his words as a bit of intellectual kindling.

          •  Kindling (none / 0)

            To what end? What discussion are you trying to spark?  See, in my view, you inadequately discuss the Summers issue and other than that, I'm not sure what it is you do discuss.

            I certainly don't see a discussion of sexism in your diary.

            Everybody dies alone.

            by Armando on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:21:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Perhaps "sexism" was an erroneous title (none / 0)

              As I said, it's purposefully general.  Still, my intent is not to discuss Summers in detail (e.g. judge him, as you seem to want to), so you're correct in that.  Besides that, I wanted to express my own general non-understanding of many self-proclaimed feminists, and much of the movement in general.  I'm truly looking for explanations, and a few of the comments in this thread have provided some, thankfully.
              •  Defensive (none / 0)

                That was very defensive.  Look, you wrote mostly about Summers in a diary you say is not about Summers.  I don't think your diary is much of an exploration of sexism either so I don't really know what it is about.

                But, you seem a nice person, unike me, so I'll just wish you well.  Thanks for the conversation.  

                Everybody dies alone.

                by Armando on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 11:42:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Defensive? (none / 0)

                  Heh, you're a nice person too, for the record.  I'm a frequenter of Tacitus as well, and have appreciated your contributions on both sites.

                  Anyway, as I said above, the diary uses Summers, but it is not about Summers.  It is not a personal judgment, neither a defense nor a damnation, and it is not intended to be.  And you're likely right, it's not much of an exploration of sexism either: it's mostly just my musings.  C'est la vie.

                  Thank you for the conversation as well, and no need to shy off if you don't want to.

  •  Dude, respectfully... (4.00 / 3)

    but I think your Y chromosome is hanging out, XYZ ;)

    I should know, because I have one too, and I've been married long enough to not worry about its size.

    "Rape=Not Good" has a whole new wealth and depth of meaning if it could conceivable happen to you...

    Dudehisattva...

    "Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom"

    by Dood Abides on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:21:34 PM PDT

    •  Thanks for your post (none / 0)

      I'm interested in a few more specifics, if you can provide them.


      but I think your Y chromosome is hanging out, XYZ ;)

      Okay, what specific stance or statement suggests this?

      I should know, because I have one too, and I've been married long enough to not worry about its size.

      Do you believe your marriage has "tempered" you on this issue, and if so, how?  And is it the only way for us guys to be tempered as you are, or is it otherwise necessary?

      "Rape=Not Good" has a whole new wealth and depth of meaning if it could conceivable happen to you...

      Perhaps, and I really did mean it when I said I do not dismiss the "empowering" side: I simply don't understand it.  That was much of the purpose of my diary: to express my own non-understanding, in the hopes that others could explain it (and some of the comments below do a decent job).

      Still, while it is difficult to conceive of being raped, I could insert all sorts of other quite negative things and the statement becomes a confusing truism (particularly because it was in such large capital letters).  "MURDER = NOT GOOD", for example, still seems like an odd statement to me.  "HOLOCAUST = NOT GOOD" (yes I'm Jewish), "BUSH/NEOCONS = NOT GOOD", "RACISM = NOT GOOD" - these are all statements I very much agree with, but expressed in that fashion they just seem like shouting.  And while I perhaps cannot really conceive of rape, I would like to think I have the capacity for empathy, and I certainly feel strong empathy for a number of the "fairer gender" who could conceivably be raped.

      Anyway, thanks again for your comment.  If you can fill in any of the above specifics for me, I'd be greatful.  And regarding the last "=NOT GOOD" bit, again I'm not trying to dismiss it, simply expressing my own non-understanding.

  •  Empowerment (4.00 / 3)

    I think I've already said plenty about the Summers debacle.  

    But empowerment really has nothing to do with that.  I personally consider it the equivalent of women shedding their socialized roles in favor of what they really want to do or can do well.  To me, empowerment is more about things like not being a doormat and not telling myself, "I can't do this because I'm female," rather than preventing rape.  

    Even if Summers had outright said that women are innately inferior, I would have just worked a little harder to prove him wrong.  That's what empowerment is to me, giving a big middle finger to everyone who tells you that you aren't capable of doing something that you love to do and want to do by doing it as best you can without worrying about their stupid standards and nay-saying.

    So I guess I see it as more a personal state of mind that an external course of action, though it can lead to that.

    "If life has no purpose, if it's been given us for its own sake, we have no reason for living." -Tolstoy

    by tryptamine on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:27:16 PM PDT

    •  Gulp (none / 0)

      So the response to sexism is "work harder?"  I can't accept that.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:28:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No no. (none / 1)

        Do your best and fuck everyone else.  Show them you are as capable as anyone else, and don't let them turn away from that.  That's what I meant.

        "If life has no purpose, if it's been given us for its own sake, we have no reason for living." -Tolstoy

        by tryptamine on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:43:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How's that different? (none / 0)

          Everybody dies alone.

          by Armando on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:59:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How else can I say this? (none / 1)

            An example, I guess:  I'm small, as a lot of females are.  I work with my husband, who is a bit bigger and stronger than me.  Our job requires us to carry a lot of stuff sometimes, and there are many times that someone will see things piled up in my arms and offer to help.  (They don't do that to my husband, I presume because he's male and therefore supposedly better able to perform the job on his own.)  But I refuse; I know what my own limits are.  Just because I may look overwhelmed doesn't mean I am, because I know how to handle myself.  

            Maybe this isn't the best example, but I empower myself by proving to myself that I can do this even if everyone else thinks I can't.  Hopefully, this shatters a little of that "women are no good at physical work" myth in other's minds too.

            Does that make more sense?

            "If life has no purpose, if it's been given us for its own sake, we have no reason for living." -Tolstoy

            by tryptamine on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 05:39:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Frankly (none / 0)

              No.  You seem to want to rule out political action on the issue - hence, "try harder" seems to be your only alternative.  I disagree.

              Everybody dies alone.

              by Armando on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 11:35:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Uh, ok... (none / 0)

                He asked what empowerment was about.  I told him what it means to me personally, and went out of my way to demonstrate that this is my personal definition of empowerment, because I consider empowerment to be a personal thing.  Am I not allowed to have my own definitions?

                "If life has no purpose, if it's been given us for its own sake, we have no reason for living." -Tolstoy

                by tryptamine on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 02:43:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Then I misunderstood (none / 0)

                  I thought you were talking about what to do about sexism. My apologies. I'm glad you don't disagree with political action to fight sexism.  Sorry about the mistake.

                  Everybody dies alone.

                  by Armando on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 02:48:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Heh. (4.00 / 2)

                    I figured it was a misunderstanding.

                    Of course I support political action against sexism!  But I'm an impatient woman, and in the meantime, I do what I can on my own.

                    "If life has no purpose, if it's been given us for its own sake, we have no reason for living." -Tolstoy

                    by tryptamine on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 03:12:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Women have been working (none / 1)


          harder for a long time.  They were insulted by his statement.

          There are many brilliant women scientists and there will be more in the future.

          •  I happen to be a woman. (none / 1)

            Studying to be a scientist, too, thanks.

            "If life has no purpose, if it's been given us for its own sake, we have no reason for living." -Tolstoy

            by tryptamine on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 05:27:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Also, (none / 1)

            I'm not saying women have to work harder.  I'm saying women should do their best and make sure they get credit for it.  If the common thought is that we can't do something because we're female, then all we have to prove is that we can do it, not that we can do it as well or better than anyone else.  So we should focus on those things that we ourselves want to be good at, not the things that everyone else says we should be good at.

            "If life has no purpose, if it's been given us for its own sake, we have no reason for living." -Tolstoy

            by tryptamine on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 06:00:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you (none / 0)

      Your response is likely the most helpful one I have received in this thread.  It seems really to me then that empowerment isn't particularly about gender at all, but rather about differences in general and overcoming them.  It's about feeling good for who you are and what you do, regardless of others.  I still don't entirely get how and why some people express and use it (at least ostensibly), but at least I understand a bit better where it's coming from.

      Thank you for your comment.

  •  Porno diary (none / 0)

         Have people seen rimjob's "Porn" diary up right now, complete with Playboy model photos?
  •  clothesline project (4.00 / 5)

    there is so much to respond to in your diary.  i think that a broad discussion on what is sexism and feminism would be a good thing, but it would take a long time to respond to each of your thoughts, since they are as you admit, not very focused.

    let me start however by clarifying the "old tee shirts."  way back in 1990 group of women got together and created "the clothesline project."  women and girls who are victims of violence express their feelings on tee shirts that are hung on a clothes line.  it draws on the metaphor (or is it a simile?) of "airing out one's dirty laundry."  

    back in the olden days (pre late 1970s), violence and abuse within families was something shameful that was not talked about.  women bore their abuse in private.  there were few laws to protect women and girls from sexual and domestic violence.  the few laws that existed weren't enforced.

    the premise of the clothesline project is that a victim of sexual or domestic violence uses the tee shirt to express whatever they are feeling about their abuse.  the tee shirt that you saw that said "rape = not good" was made by a rape victim.  perhaps not the most articulate rape victim.  but it was her expression of her feelings about being raped.  and perhaps the expression "not good" held some personal meaning for her in the context of her abuse history.

    the tee shirts are considered empowering simply by virtue of the fact that they exist.  victims of rape, domestic violence, and sexual abuse empower themselves by speaking the truth about their experience instead of hiding it away in shame.  by speaking out, they are proclaiming, it was not my fault.  this was done to me and it was wrong.  they are reclaiming their voices.

    every tee shirt you saw hanging their was made by a victim, expressing her (or his) own thoughts, feelings about the crime committed against them.  the value of airing that "laundry" in public is for viewers to pause a moment and take in the reality of the experience of those victims, to  notice how many victims are represented.  to appreciate the pain the victim has suffered and to value their courage in speaking out.

    the purpose of the tee shirts is not to empower you.  it's to empower the women who make them, to let other victims know they are not alone, and to encourage other victims to speak out.

    here is the url:  http://www.clotheslineproject.org/

    where women's words are valued and respected, Our Word

    by artemisia on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:35:54 PM PDT

    •  excellent point (4.00 / 3)

      "empowerment" is a fuzzy MBA corporate-speak word that unfortunately has spread through a lot of lefty communities. A more accurate description would be "taking power." People who are raped have the power to control what happens to their own bodies taken away from them during that rape. By actively doing something about their environment, whether (far too rarely) pressing charges against their attacker, marching in a Take Back the Night rally, becoming a rape crisis counselor, holding a protest, or writing their thoughts and feelings down on a t-shirt and hanging it up in public, these people take back some of the power and control that was taken from them.

      Another function of the clothesline would hopefully be inspiration. As in, you walk across the campus and, seeing the clothesline project, really start thinking about rape and sexual assault on your campus (I know of three women who have told their TAs about being raped at my school this quarter alone) and do something yourself, such as joining the Students Stopping Rape or Men Against Rape groups on your campus.

      "There are no shortcuts to accomplishing constructive social change ... struggle is called 'struggle' for a reason." Ward Churchill

      by CAuniongirl on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 12:06:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nice insight (none / 0)

        It's good to hear that I'm not the only person who thinks "empowerment" sounds a little fuzzy.  That said, I very much agree with your points, and would support and possibly even participate in (time depending) such activities on my campus and elsewhere.  I found the t-shirts to be a bit strange because they were given no context, no explanation, they were just put there.  With explanation I would find them more palatable, and an actual rally or other activity would also be constructive.
    •  Thank you for giving me some history (none / 0)

      I only wish they had done that here on my campus, as then it would have made a bit of sense.

      I'm sorry if I came off as callous in dismissing the display: I truly did not understand its real origin or purpose.  To me, they were just a bunch of shirts put up randomly at the place where I eat my food and drink my hot chocolate (I'm not a coffee person).  I figured they were supposed to make a statement, and that it was supposed to be "empowering", but I didn't know any of the specifics that you provided me with.  Thus, they seemed quite out of place.

      Thank you again, and maybe I'll get in touch with the group on campus that did this display and suggest that they also put up some sort of explanation along with the t-shirts so the thing comes off as a bit less austere.

  •  problems: direct and nuanced (4.00 / 7)

    aaron,

    in your diary you state "The problems posed by sexism are no longer so direct as to require such direct solutions: instead, the issues are nuanced, and the responses should be as well."

    i disagree with your assertion that the problems posed by sexism are no longer so direct.  Some of the problems posed by sexism are just as direct as they ever were:  domestic violence, rape, date rape, women earning less money than men for the same work, glass ceilings etc.  

    sexism is not just an obsolete experience of the older generation.  sexism is alive and well among the younger generations.  it's present in their language.  women are ho's.  the word pimp is used in all sorts of contexts such as pimp clothes and having a "pimped out ride" etc.  it's present in the reality of "date rape" drugs.  it's present in the inequality of funding for boys and girls sports.

    if you want to know whether sexism is alive and well, pick up your local metropolitan newspaper and count how many editorial commentators are women.  men outnumber women by at least 2 or 3 to 1 in op-ed editorials of most major newspapers.  check out susan estrich's recent fight with the la times in that regard.  this lack of balance is not because women aren't writing, it's because the newspapers aren't publishing women's writings.

    if you want to know whether sexism still exists, look at the united states congress.  women are more than half of the US population and yet their numbers in the halls of power are paltry.

    these are not "nuanced" problems.  while there may be many and nuances and subtleties contributing to the status quo, the reality of sexism in women's lives is quite direct.

    -artemisia

    where women's words are valued and respected, Our Word

    by artemisia on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:09:05 PM PDT

    •  Meaning of "direct" (none / 1)

      By saying a problem isn't direct I don't mean to say it is unimportant: I would consider most social and political issues to be indirect.  Directness has to do with the appropriate response to the problem, not the urgency or importance of the problem itself.

      i disagree with your assertion that the problems posed by sexism are no longer so direct.  Some of the problems posed by sexism are just as direct as they ever were:  domestic violence, rape, date rape, women earning less money than men for the
      same work, glass ceilings etc.

      Those are all major problems, agreed - however, I don't think that a direct solution is possible, or necessarily desirable as it might cause problems of its own.  A direct solution would kind of be the equivalent of "reverse discrimination" - I am not making an accusation in saying that, mind you, but I do think that while there are men who mistreat women, the vast majority of men are good and treat women well and do not want the glass ceiling either.

      These problems are societal, and to be honest, will probably always be with us on some level (well hopefully not the money/glass ceiling ones, but the violence ones).  For whatever reason, humans (and I suppose particularly men) have a capacity for violence.  I'm not trying to excuse or dismiss it, and I do think that these problems can be alleviated.  But they are not a direct problem: a direct problem is clearcut and has a simple and complete solution.

      sexism is not just an obsolete experience of the older generation.  sexism is alive and well among the younger generations.  it's present in their language.  women are ho's.  the word pimp is used in all sorts of contexts such as pimp clothes and having a "pimped out ride" etc.  it's present in the reality of "date rape" drugs.  it's present in the inequality of funding for boys and girls sports.

      Agreed and agreed and agreed, though when I hear about sports funding my mind jumps not to gender inequalities but the fact that we spend so much money on sports when music and the arts are neglected.  But in any case, I agree with all of these, and would actually say that these further demonstrate how this is actually not a direct problem (with the possible exception of the sports funding).  You can't regulate language - education is the solution, and it is a slow one, but worth every minute.

      I would add, though, that while there are many words with insensitive origins out there, don't take people too seriously.  I'm not trying to justify their use (I don't really use any of the language you provided, or anything vaguely like it really), but I do think that it is often used in a purposefully satirical or otherwise not-intended-to-demean fashion.  Of course, satire is not appropriate in all situations, and of course the words are also often used in actually demeaning fashions, but I still figured it'd be worth pointing out.

      if you want to know whether sexism is alive and well, pick up your local metropolitan newspaper and count how many editorial commentators are women.  men outnumber women by at least 2 or 3 to 1 in op-ed editorials of most major newspapers.  check out susan estrich's recent fight with the la times in that regard.  this lack of balance is not because women aren't writing, it's because the newspapers aren't publishing women's writings.

      Again, agreed.  But I don't think the solution is direct: enforced equality in this setting would really just damage the whole system.  Perhaps incentives should be provided, perhaps rejected women should band together and form their own commentator group, perhaps the sources of the difference (bias in some level of the newspaper/commentator sphere) should be highlighted and solutions proposed.

      if you want to know whether sexism still exists, look at the united states congress.  women are more than half of the US population and yet their numbers in the halls of power are paltry.

      Again, agreed, but again, the solution isn't some sort of law requiring the proper statistical proportion of women to be represented politically.  As I said above, that would hurt the whole system.  Equality should be worked for, but not in an unequal fashion.

      these are not "nuanced" problems.  while there may be many and nuances and subtleties contributing to the status quo, the reality of sexism in women's lives is quite direct.

      Well I think our difference here is purely semantic: I did not mean to say that sexism is unimportant or not part of the reality of women's lives.  I do believe these are nuanced problems, however, and that isn't to say that they are unimportant, but rather that they require more novel and indirect solutions.  If anything, that makes these problems all the more difficult and important.  These problems aren't as easy as passing a law - they require education and a longterm commitment to true equality, not just enforced artificial equality.  That is what I meant by saying these problems aren't direct.

      Thanks for your comment.

  •  The shirts (4.00 / 6)

    I'm too tired to see if anyone has commented on it, but the shirts usually go up on campus as part of a Rape Prevention/Education exhibit.  

    When I was college, they had them up too and it had nothing to do with Valentine's Day.  Many females are raped in colleges across this country and many of them do not report it for various reasons.  The organization starts by hanging up the shirts and allows the rape survivors to do a shirt too.  They usually have counselors and social service workers on hand so that the women can get the help they need.

    I remember the first time I saw the shirts.  I walked around them, confused because I thought they were selling something.  I remember this girl from my dorm walking around looking like a zombie.  One of the social workers asked if she was okay and took her away to talk.  I went to get some food.  When I walked by past, that same girl was hanging the shirt she had made.  It spoke of how her father raped her mother over and over, then how he raped her and her 2 sisters.  

    Naturally, the asshole guys on campus made fun of the shirts, the women and asked why this was on campus.  Funny, they didn't seem too annoyed when the scanitly clad females from some MTV show visited the campus.  

    Outta here, I don't deal well with sites that condone racism.

    by fabooj on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 10:27:45 PM PDT

    •  Thank you for your story (none / 0)

      I didn't intend to make fun of the shirts, by the way, but simply express that they seemed out of place.  They were given no context (e.g. no explanation or history, like you and artemisia have provided), they really did seem like some sort of bizarro-Valentines-day exhibit to me.

      And I agree that some guys do have a double standard - I just ask you to remember that not all guys are that way, and hey, even some women have double standards of their own.  Neither gender is perfect nor imperfect.  In fact, I'd say we're pretty darn equal...

  •  Do unto others (4.00 / 2)

    • Disclosure: I have 2 X chromosomes, and I ended up sliding into economics from physics as an undergraduate mainly because my interests shifted but partly because of sexism. (Specifically: Wayne the octopus-like physics lab partner.)

    • I don't want Summers fired or hounded out because, right now, the right is much better at hounding people out than the left is. The witch hunts against Dan Rather and Eason Jordan were terrible things.

    If a celebrity actually does something horrible, throw the book at him/her.

    If a celebrity just says something awful, attack the statement, but, as much as possible, avoid trying to ruin the career of the person who made the statement.

    - On the other hand: One of the big problems with what Summers said is with who he is.

    Of course, any open-minded person who reads The New York Times science section knows that some research suggests that male and female brains may work differently. And anyone who lives in our society probably knows that many bright women who can afford to stay home or take "mommy track" jobs when they have children will do so. I certainly wish someone would give me a stable mommy track job that would pay me what I'm earning now.

    On the other hand, it's also clear that women in science face many barriers, including parental skepticism, sexual harassment, problems with intra-department relationships that go bad, junior high school-like cliques, and departments that give women too little time to have babies and rear children.

    Summers is directly responsible for trying to attack those barriers at Harvard. Sure, genetic differences could explain some of the differences between the achievements of men and women in, say, physics, but, when Summers ignores or diminishes the importance of the barriers (e.g., excessive department time demands) that do exist, he seems to be giving up on taking responsibility for the problems that he could be solving.

    •  As is done unto you (none / 0)

      Very nice insight - thank you very much for your comment.  Your disclosures were appreciated, though I think you managed to be quite objective.  I also appreciate your distinction between word and deed, and like your reasoning for why Summers need not be hounded over this.

      More power to you, of course, for having problems with Summers and what he said.  I'm not saying I approve of or agree with him, simply that I think most of his critics are misguided and that his words can hopefully spark dialogue (as they arguably have).  I agree that there are differences and problems to be addressed, and Summers arguably overlooked or trivialized them.

      •  I would add though... (none / 0)

        ...that as I said above, a university president is really just a figurehead and a fundraiser, not a policy setter.  I wouldn't hold Summers accountable for specific departmental policy at Harvard - look to the department heads, perhaps.
      •  Part of the problem on the left (none / 1)

        Obviously, what you're talking about is the Achilles heel of the left: the fact that we do have trouble with "inarguable truths" that are pretty arguable and aren't really key to our core principles.

        Example:

        - "All human beings from all geographic, ethnic, sexual, etc. groups have the exact same average aptitude for everything, except maybe tanning."

        Sometimes people who are moderate and progressive can get into bitter, self-destructive arguments over statements for or against these sorts of propositions. But, if you look closely at these propositions, I think you see that, for the most part, you can usually come up with functional propositions that lead to similar results without leading to the same kind of eye rolling.

        Translation of an annoyingly utopian statement into a statement with much broader appeal:

        - "Who knows whether all people have the same aptitude or even, when you come down to it, how we should defined aptitude. But we should do our darnedest to make sure that every baby on earth has every opportunity and resource necessary to live up to his/her potential, because any decent person who takes a good, long look at a baby knows that that's what every baby deserves."

  •  Empowerment (4.00 / 4)

    I'm going to take you seriously that  "you don't understand 'empowerment.' " You acknowledge that sexism exists and that it is maintained in subtle and nuanced ways. Exactly. Many, if not most, of the structural, legal, and institutional barriers to gender equality have been broken down through the hard work of feminists and activists of the past 30 years.

    I would like to suggest that colonization may be an effective framework for examining the ways in which sexism is maintained. What are the colonizers tools? Violence (rape, domestic abuse). Religion (Focus on the Family, Jerry Falwell, Promisekeepers). Language (see examples in comment above). The colonizers succeed when they manage, largely through these three strategies and by controlling the other primary institutions--education, media, etc, in getting the colonized to internalize the colonial project.

    Empowerment is one part of decolonizing one's self. For the rape victim who has been told she brought it on herself, she asked for it, she was stupid to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, "Rape = Not Good" is a powerful decolonizing statement.

    Ngugi wa Thiong'o's Decolonizing the Mind is a good place to start.

    "I still think politics is about who's getting screwed and who's doing the screwing." -Molly Ivins

    by hono lulu on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 11:39:41 PM PDT

    •  i agree (none / 0)

      but i would use the words conquor and conquest rather than colonize.  colonization can take place in uninhabited places.  when outsiders move into an inhabited community and take over, it is  conquest.

      where women's words are valued and respected, Our Word

      by artemisia on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 12:54:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  interesting distinction (none / 0)

        My first thought was that conquest was the immediate action and that colonization took place over a longer time span. Sort've like invasion and occupation. I'm not sure though that conquest wouldn't also apply to uninhabited lands. The Old World explorers thought of themselves as conquerors AND managed to convince themselves that the lands were uninhabited because they found only "savages." And this profile of Sir Edmund Hillary describes him as the "conqueror of the North Pole" even though it certainly wasn't colonized.

        Not criticizing, just word-playing.

        "I still think politics is about who's getting screwed and who's doing the screwing." -Molly Ivins

        by hono lulu on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 01:16:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you for taking me seriously (none / 0)

      And thank you for explaining your concept of "decolonization" - it's a quite interesting way to look at the problem.  I can see how "empowerment" is a method to alleviating some of the subtle framework that causes sexism to persist.  I would also wholeheartedly agree with your identification of both religion and language as other parts of the framework, and I would suggest that both require more novel and less direct solutions as well (since you can't really regulate either).

      Thank you for saying in a few paragraphs what I couldn't say in a few pages - that the structural and legal barriers of bias are largely broken down, and that the lasting biases can be found in more subtle places.  I would add the one caveat that most people, guys included, do not like the persisting biases.  It's not like all guys are trying to keep all women down.  I only add that caveat because sometimes I feel like there are those who claim to champion feminism but are really just condemning males as much as they can - I realize you're not doing that, and I'm not accusing you of it.

  •  What is asinine (4.00 / 3)

    are the attitudes of too many men.

    There is  far too much violence against women.

    Expressions of art like the clotheslines project can have a major impact on people.

    When  I was in college, there was an art exhibit on sexual assault organized by Susan Brownmiller, Barbara Kruger, and Jenny Holzer.

     The reviewer for the local paper said he felt like he was being attacked.

    The art had a major impact on me because I could feel empathy for hte women who made the work.

    It certainly was one factor in my later doing activism around violence against women and working at a rape crisis center for a summer.

    I think all too often when people want to avoide the issue, they attack the tactics.

    •  wow! did you meet them? (none / 0)

      Have you ever gotten the chance to speak to Brownmiller and Kruger?

      "There are no shortcuts to accomplishing constructive social change ... struggle is called 'struggle' for a reason." Ward Churchill

      by CAuniongirl on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 12:10:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I met Holzer (none / 0)


         when she had a big show at the Guggenheim many years ago.

         I've seen Kruger speak twice including just a few weeks ago at the SF Art Institute.

          I haven't had a chance to see Brownmiller speak, but I've read Against Our Will and seen her in documentaries.

    •  Agreed... (none / 0)

      ...and thank you for the story from your own college.

      And I agree that art can impact people, if it is given enough context so as to not just confuse them.  The display at my school had no context, and really did seem out of place to me.  I'm not dismissing it, simply saying I didn't understand it.  Now thanks to this thread I better understand the purpose of the clothesline project - still, it would have been nice if they had explained it where they put it up.

      I would of course agree that there is far too much violence against women, and that plenty of men have asinine attitudes on the topic.  I would just add that plenty of men also have open and more enlightened views, and that the quest to end violence against women should come from and take into consideration both genders.

  •  Larry Summers has been discussed exhaustively (4.00 / 4)

    in the past week or so, in about 6 diaries, two of which were on the front page . . . you might look at those, as the diaries and comments reflect a wide range of opinions, many extremely well-informed on various aspects of this issue.

    Regarding empowerment: I understand that you're really young, and also a guy, so you might not have a ton of relevant life experience to bring to bear in trying to understand this concept. But using empathy, trying to imagine yourself in another's position, is the best way I think to gain understanding.

    (What follows, please understand, applies only to straight, white, men vs. women.)

    On this issue, I would suggest focusing on the following: in our society, young men grow up seeing men in roles of power and authority all the time--e.g., in films and on TV, and also in politics, in historical representations, pretty much everywhere you look.

    Men are the heroes and the villains too, the leaders, the warriors, the ones who act. They're usually the ones who write the "story"--be it fiction, reportage, or history--and they're also  usually the ones the story is "about"--if it's not about a man, then it's a "chick flick," "chick fiction," "women's history," etc.

    Men have, historically, been the scientists, too, who decided which questions should be asked, and what evidence to include.

    Men are also the ones that have the power of validating others--it's male authority figures who give a young man approval and opportunity (outside of the sexual/romantic realm for straight men).

    So, maybe without even realizing it, all your life you've seen men modeling power, strength, authority. And you, as a (straight, white) man, naturally expect to be entitled to these roles as well. You may need to earn them, but you are as eligible as any other to receive this status.

    For women, on the other hand, depictions of women in roles of authority (both real-world and fictional) are much more rare. Women are usually depicted in relation to a man, and usually play a secondary role. For the most part, (white) women are encouraged to look to men for their validation, and usually mainly in terms of their attractiveness. They also become used to seeing men as natural authority figures, just as you have.

    For a woman to expect and seek power in any realm outside the romantic/sexual realm requires more imagination, confidence, and daring than it does for a man. Without even realizing it, women get used to not expecting to gain roles of power or authority. Even in her personal life, a woman can feel punished if she tries to take the lead. And if you can imagine yourself in this situation for a lifetime, maybe you can imagine that you would not feel very empowered.

    So, to counter all that disempowering imagery, people need to do things to actively empower themselves. This might be having a role model who shares your group identity and has a powerful role. It might mean staking out some territory where women are in charge, so you can feel comfortable asserting yourself. Or it might mean writing what you believe on a T-shirt and hanging it up where everyone can see it.  To make it feel real, and possible.

    Hope this is helpful.

    •  On male dominated society (none / 0)

      in the past week or so, in about 6 diaries, two of which were on the front page . . . you might look at those, as the diaries and comments reflect a wide range of opinions, many extremely well-informed on various aspects of this issue.

      Thank you for your suggestion - I missed them (I don't check dkos quite every day), but will look them up.  I'm sorry if my diary was redundant as it wasn't intended to be, I'd only seen a few diaries on Summers and they seemed to have a different angle than mine.

      Regarding empowerment: I understand that you're really young, and also a guy, so you might not have a ton of relevant life experience to bring to bear in trying to understand this concept. But using empathy, trying to imagine yourself in another's position, is the best way I think to gain understanding.

      Fair enough, though I'd hope college doesn't count as "really young" any more.  I'm certainly young, though, and would not dispute that.  And empathy is certainly a fine way to understand things.  That said, while I appreciate your comment it was all issues I was aware of.  I'm not dismissing it mind you: you framed it very nicely, and put it in the context of the t-shirt and such.  Still, just because I'm a young guy doesn't mean I don't recognize or appreciate the gender differences in society (and imagery and art and stories and most everything).  Granted linking it up to the issue of empowerment was helpful, but the rest of it felt just a bit condescending.

      But in any case, you provided context, and I thank you for that.  Had the t-shirt display done so (and it could be a good deal simpler than your post), I would have been able to appreciate it better and not been so mystified by it.  I am not objecting to the goal of these movements, I am simply confused by their tactics.  And seeing as how I'm likely pretty representative of their audience, if I can't understand what they're doing, then they need to do something differently.  The t-shirt display, as it was done at my school, seemed disconnected and out of place.  Thankfully this discussion has given me some context.

      •  Didn't mean to be condescending . . . (none / 1)

        When you said you just didn't get empowerment, I figured I'd better start with the basics in case you hadn't thought about these things! (Believe it or not, there are still many people who haven't.) And in your diary you said that you were in favor of equal opportunity but didn't mention any ways that you thought it might be lacking.

        I'm glad that you already know that stuff--but there's a difference between knowing facts, and understanding their import. So, I think that really trying to imagine how you might feel and what you might need to do if you were in that situation would still be really helpful in understanding the need of others for empowerment. As a white person who "knows" about the facts of racism I've personally found it really helpful in understanding how people of minority races and religions feel.

        On college-age not being really young: well, I'm more than twice your age, so to me it really is. But that's not a bad thing! Recently a woman in her late 50's said to me, "Oh, you're still a kid" and I loved hearing that! It made me feel (however briefly!) like I had lots of time left to learn and grow.

  •  So what you're saying is (none / 1)

    I'm a privileged prat who doesn't even grasp the extent to which I've been sheltered from the harsh realities of other people's lives by my privilege, and I want you all to just shut up and stop making me (and others like me) feel uncomfortable about the daily terror and shaming and discrimination you live with.

    Okay, I guess....

    NOT!

    No Pity. No Shame. No Silence.

    Since you seem to have missed this, I dare you to go there.

    Maybe, afterwards, you'll begin to understand.

    Or, just read this post, and perhaps you'll get it even faster. If you don't, then I suspect there's no hope for you, that nothing but a nipponized bit of the old sixth avenue el will ever make an impression in your head...

    "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

    by bellatrys on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 05:05:57 AM PDT

    •  Please... (none / 1)

      ...there is no need for this vitriol.  Reread my diary and my comments if you must, you'll find that nowhere am I dismissing the scope or importance of these problems.  Please do not make presumptions about who I am or my life, and please do not insult me based on your prejudgments.

      Furthermore, nowhere did I say that the t-shirts or whatever else made me feel uncomfortable: I said that they seemed out of place, an odd truism without context.  You seem to be responding to how others may react to such displays (and doing so with a good bit of fervor), but it was not my reaction.  I don't "live with" the daily terror and shaming and discrimination: I actively, in my own life, try to be as good and fair a human being as I can.  I actively, in my discussions with others, try to promote rationality and equality.  I actively, in my deeds, work and live life with people of all races, creeds, genders, and whatever other groups you want to cook up.  So please, don't condemn me for the misdeeds of others: not all men are guilty.

      The link you provided, even though you did so in spite and condescension, is quite appreciated.  It's been awhile since I've read mefi or been to LJ, so this was news to me.  Unfortunately it looks like much of the o