Suicide

I didn't want to post this in the Hunter Thompson post, because I agreed with some people who said that wasn't the place for it. And we don't know what was going on in Mr. Thompson's life. Suicide due to terminal illness is something different, and if Mr. Thompson had a terminal illness that we don't know about, and that's why he killed himself, what I'm about to say doesn't apply. And severe physical pain is a grey area, especially if the pain is chronic and isn't ever going to get better.

However, those factors not being in evidence, I feel that suicide is stupid and selfish. It's not heroic. It's not noble. It's a sad fucking waste.

Yeah, there are always 'reasons'. So what? Bush has 'reasons' for killing piles of Iraqis. We reject those reasons. Just as I reject almost all reasons for suicide. "Permanent solution to a temporary problem" sums it up just nicely.

And, before you all jump down my back, let me tell you that I have a nice vivid reminder of my own selfishness and stupidity every time I look down and see the jagged scar on my left wrist. Yes, I was 15, but that's no excuse. Maybe more people who attempt suicide need to be unexpectedly caught. In my case, it was by my brother, who was 12 at the time. Imagine that. Imagine if you were in my brother's shoes, coming downstairs to see someone he loved and looked up to with a knife in his hand, carving a channel through his wrist. It scarred my brother, no doubt, for a while--but it would've scarred him more if he'd been too late. If I ever needed a vivid confirmation of what an ASS I was being--there it was, on his face. More people that think about suicide should go through that. It's a wonderful cure.

Yeah, I'm being judgemental. Fuck it, I have a right, I've been there. And every time I look at two little girls that wouldn't have existed if I hadn't gotten over being an ass, it makes me sick.

•  Sigh

  As I posted in the other thread:

  Your own life is sacrosanct, to do with what you will.  If you're of sound mind and decide to end your own life, well.  That possibility comes with freedom.

  by Slade on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:03:54 AM PDT

  •  I reject that

    unless you have absolutely NOBODY who will be affected by you offing yourself. And who amoung us can say that?

    I shudder to think what me being successful would've done to my parents. It absolutely horrifies me now.

    by ChurchofBruce on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:22:31 AM PDT

    •  What Others May Feel

      Should not be allowed to dictate your actions.

      If we were all held hostage to what all the people who puport to care about us want, then we would all do very little.

      Hold on, I'm going to try an experiment.

      goes to kitchen

      returns with big knife

      Now, I have a large knife sitting next to my computer.  If you post another thing on this website, ever, and I see it, I'm going to take that knife and cut my own throat.  Now, if you post again, are you responsible for me cutting my throat?

      Of course not.  It's an extreme example, I grant you, but the point stands.  All you can accomplish in life is to do what you feel is right and moral; what other people feel about your actions is up to them.

      by Slade on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 11:31:14 AM PDT

      •  The problem I have with that is

        ...that kind of stance is contrary to progressive and liberal thought, isn't it? I think it is.

        What we do does affect other people. How much 'responsibility' you attatch to it, I think, depends on how close those people are, and your degree of culpability. Your example is extreme, yes. However--and, remember, my thoughts on suicide in general--if I beat and ridicule my daughters, and one of them kills herself, am I partially responsible? You bet your ass.

        Additionally, if I kill myself and it irreperably screws up my daughters, am I partially responsible? Again, damn straight I am.

        If I thought I could blithely trip through life without thinking about what other people think of my actions, I'd be an Ayn Rand Libertarian, not a Progressive.

        by ChurchofBruce on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 12:26:46 PM PDT

        •  Not a good example

          Beating your daughters would, of course, fall into the category of physically hurting someone else.  Obviously you don't have the freedom to hurt other people.

          I'm not saying that you shouldn't worry about what people think about your actions. But if your opposition to suicide boils down to "you'd hurt people emotionally," then you have to start thinking about all the things you do during the average day that people might get upset about, and asking yourself if you should do something or not based on what someone else will think of it.  I don't think that's an honest way to live your life; I just choose to carry the principle through all it's implications.

          All you can do in life is what's right by you; trying to live by other people's definitions of right and wrong is impossible.

          ...that kind of stance is contrary to progressive and liberal thought, isn't it? I think it is.

          Whatever that means.

          by Slade on Tue Feb 22, 2005 at 12:34:49 AM PDT

          •  Well, there's degrees

            Not only is there degrees of emotional hurt, there's degrees in the relationships to who you hurt.

            I absolutely do try to live my life, as much as possible, by the Golden Rule. Now, nobody's perfect, and I'm as far from perfect as you can get :-), but I do try.

            However, even in trying, there's degrees. There's minor emotional hurts, and major ones. There's a person I pass on the streen once a month--and then there's my daughters. I do try to avoid visiting minor emotional hurts on anyone, if I can avoid it--but inflicting major emotional hurts on my daughters is a big fat huge no-no.  

            So, my opposition to suicide isn't that "I'd hurt people emotionally." That's not nearly strong enough. It's that "I'd devastate people who are precious to me." This is not an 'emotional hurt', it's a big fat HUGE emotional hurt and it most affects those closest to you.

            by ChurchofBruce on Tue Feb 22, 2005 at 05:15:28 AM PDT

  •  couldn't

    some people argue that if you are planning to kill yourself, you're not exactly of "sound mind".  I'm actually fairly distanced from this discussion and I can see both sides of the issue but who decides if you're of sound mind?  In fact, your statement reminds me of a catch-22.  

    If you're of sound mind you can choose to kill yourself, but if you choose to kill yourself it means you're not of sound mind.

    by notableabsence on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:35:30 AM PDT

    •  Agree

      Two people I've loved have committed suicide.  I'm still pissed at them for doing it, but I realize that they were both very depressed people.  Depression can kill.  It can cause suicide and/or homicide and needs to be taken care of.  

      Logically, I can understand why these two people felt the way they did, but that does not mean there really was a good reason they had to do it.  Things change. The situation that caused them to do what they did would change, but they'll never see that now. Sigh. Suicide is incredibly sad, yet maddening when it happens. The people left behind have to deal with picking up afterwards.

      I can understand when someone is terminally ill and wants to hurry the inevitable. Fine, they should be able to do it in an open manner and give everyone a chance to say goodbye. I'm all for that. Leave the survivors behind with a heavy heart, but not a heavy mind.

      by Erin in Flagstaff on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:12:24 AM PDT

    •  I can think of several instances

      In which a person of sound mind might elect to commit suicide.

      In the theorized case of HST, for example, we had a guy faced with a terminal illness who chose, rather than place a burden on himself in terms of pain and his loved ones in terms of mental suffering, killed himself.

      I mean, the whole debate presupposes that you can be in a sound state of mind and want to die.  To ask that question is a matter for qualified psychologists (who differ, by the way), not moralists like all of us.  ;)

      by Slade on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 11:37:53 AM PDT

•  Severe depression

  does not admit to much logic. Part of the definiton of suicidal depression is the inability accurately to weigh the consequences of one's act.

  by murphy on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:09:39 AM PDT

  •  Exactly.

    If only the choice was as rational as described by the diarist.

    "Oh, I'm being selfish."

    I think that's an abject simplification.

    by Bob Johnson on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:23:57 AM PDT

  •  Depression = Illness

    Some folks are born that way, neuro-chemically speaking.

    Others acquire the disease, for known and unknown reasons.

    There's treatment of various types - medication, talk therapy, ECT.

    Some people are treated. Some are not.

    Of the people who are treated, 33.3% get better; 33.3% get worse; 33.3% stay about the same.

    Like any illness, depression has grades of severity.

    Like any illness, depression affects the person as well as others who are involved with that person.

    I'm not trying to be fatalist, and I'm not trying to be flip or insensitive to your experience.

    I feel for you (diarist) as I would want you to feel for me if our positions were reversed.

    All actions have outcomes, some of which we control, others of which we don't.

    Our challenge is to make meaning from that experience.

    Death has a finality to it.

    I already miss Hunter S. Thompson. I also have been looking at recent pictures of him. His health was not good. What a surprise.

    I'm glad you posted the diary. You're the only one who can make meaning from your experience, but others can hear what you have to say and make their own meaning from that.

    Let your neighbor speak, then move on.

    Back to mourning, but that's not all it'll be.

    by RubDMC on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:25:42 AM PDT

    •  Depression is a tricky issue

      ..and I do see your point.

      I am not, nor have I ever been, clinically depressed. Many people, especially teenagers, who attempt suicide are not.

      by ChurchofBruce on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:29:24 AM PDT

      •  Teenagers go through periods

        of hormonal imbalance. This can lead to temporary depression and irrational, extreme behavior. Some women also experience this hormonal imbalance post-partem. The trick is to recognize it, acknowlege it is happening and use the knowledge to rein in irrational thoughts and behaviors. But it is "knowlege" that is needed, not moralizing.

        I too used to think suicide was a selfish act. It's not that simple.

        Stop beating up on yourself.

        by Jedgar Rove on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:12:43 AM PDT

        •  Possibly

          Not in my case.

          Look, as you might expect, I did the whole shrink thing after the attempt. It was helpful. But I didn't really have any kind of 'illness'. Not hormonal, not depression, none of that. And the shrink, who dealt with a lot of teenaged suicide attempts, did tell me that that wasn't uncommon.

          Yes, some suicide attempts are due to depression, or hormones, or some other chemical reason. But mine, and according to the shrink quite a bit of teenagers', was purely due to external factors.

          by ChurchofBruce on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:32:33 AM PDT

  •  this reminds me...

    Of last weeks episode of "the medium" where they talk about a guy who interviewed people who'd tried to commit suicide by jumping off some bridge (I forget which) and every single one of them said that about 2/3 of the way down, every single dark insurrmountable problem they thought they had in their life seemed absolutely overcomable (I know that's not a word but I'm pulling a blank here).  Except that one problem where they'd just jumped off the bridge.

    by DawnG on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:42:06 AM PDT

•  Life is Mostly Selfisn

  We tread on this planet for a few decades, eating up other formes of life, and indirectly causing the suffering of other beings if not intentionally. Life is suffering, and then you die. If you get enough love and pleasure and hope to make it last 85 years, great. If not, who's to say jumping overboard is selfish?

  by easong on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:12:06 AM PDT

  •  Six months before I tried...

    ..one of my best friends died, at the age of 15, from leukemia.

    I saw what her death did to the people around her. And that includes me (it was one of my 'reasons'.) So I damn well knew what my death would do to people around me, because I'd been through it. I didn't care. That's the ultimate in selfishness.

    When my parents first found out, there was, as you might expect, a lot of shock and worry. After they got through some of that, about six months later, my Dad indulged in a bit of another emotion--anger. He said to me, "Jesus Christ, would you get the fuck over yourself?" He was right.

    by ChurchofBruce on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:27:22 AM PDT

    •  congratulations Bruce

      on getting the fuck over yourself :)

      by peglyn on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:13:16 AM PDT

•  Agree.

   That's one reason I never bought into the idolization of Kurt Cobain after he killed himself - he abandoned his kid.

  by Anderson Republican on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:16:18 AM PDT

•  It might not have been suicide in reality

  in fact, that was the first thing that came to my mind was that he probably knew too much about W.

  by IhateBush on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:16:50 AM PDT

•  A poem

  Anne Sexton

  Wanting to Die

  Since you ask, most days I cannot remember.
  I walk in my clothing, unmarked by that voyage.
  Then the almost unnameable lust returns.

  Even then I have nothing against life.
  I know well the grass blades you mention,
  the furniture you have placed under the sun.

  But suicides have a special language.
  Like carpenters they want to know which tools.
  They never ask why build.

  Twice I have so simply declared myself,
  have possessed the enemy, eaten the enemy,
  have taken on his craft, his magic.

  In this way, heavy and thoughtful,
  warmer than oil or water,
  I have rested, drooling at the mouth-hole.

  I did not think of my body at needle point.
  Even the cornea and the leftover urine were gone.
  Suicides have already betrayed the body.

  Still-born, they don't always die,
  but dazzled, they can't forget a drug so sweet
  that even children would look on and smile.

  To thrust all that life under your tongue!--
  that, all by itself, becomes a passion.
  Death's a sad bone; bruised, you'd say,

  and yet she waits for me, year after year,
  to so delicately undo an old wound,
  to empty my breath from its bad prison.

  Balanced there, suicides sometimes meet,
  raging at the fruit, a pumped-up moon,
  leaving the bread they mistook for a kiss,

  leaving the page of the book carelessly open,
  something unsaid, the phone off the hook
  and the love, whatever it was, an infection.
  

  by fblau on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:37:18 AM PDT

•  Fear and Loathing

  Did Hunter stop using drugs and alcohol?

  If he still used them, I'm not surprised if he killed himself.  It is very hard to understand what goes on in the mind of an alcoholic or drug addict, because their minds just don't work like ours.  They are paranoid, delusional, depressed and angry.  They are also physically ill.  The drugs or alcohol cause severe damage to the body over long term use.  Their eating and sleeping habits are disrupted.  They feel HORRIBLE, and they keep looking for some reason why they feel HORRIBLE, and some way to make the pain stop.  They would love their kids if they had anything left, but there isn't anything left.  

  by DFWmom on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:53:25 AM PDT

•  I agree

  I've seen too many friends kill themselves and the wreckage they left behind was horrible. A few of these people only needed to reach out and their problems could have been lessened or even ended. It hurts like hell to think I missed something or that the person didn't trust me enough to let me know how they felt.

  I'm all for "Doctor Assisted Suicide" and even euthinasia in certain circumstances. But those are different than many of the reasons that people kill themselves.

  We don't know the story for HST so I'm not making a judgement on him. But overall I think this diary is pretty right on.

  by Mike S on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:02:35 AM PDT

  •  Someone who has a severe

    major depression that has kept them locked up in their own world crippled by it has the most intense pain. Reaching out, Going to the shrink Taking the meds whatever...
    Sometimes this does not work and then there are so many people who on top of the depression that could have a strong hold on you for years without any major relief have health problems that complicate every aspect of living.

    Severe major depression is absolute mental and physical pain.
    It is not an excuse for suicide but if you have suffered in this way you most likely can Understand someone esle Not being able to take it anymore.
    

    by hiley on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:14:09 AM PDT

    •  No argument

      But for many it is a choice that they may regret after it's tpp late. Below is a clip from a New Yorker article recently made famous by the NBC show "Medium."

      Survivors often regret their decision in midair, if not before. Ken Baldwin and Kevin Hines both say they hurdled over the railing, afraid that if they stood on the chord they might lose their courage. Baldwin was twenty-eight and severely depressed on the August day in 1985 when he told his wife not to expect him home till late. "I wanted to disappear," he said. "So the Golden Gate was the spot. I'd heard that the water just sweeps you under." On the bridge, Baldwin counted to ten and stayed frozen. He counted to ten again, then vaulted over. "I still see my hands coming off the railing," he said. As he crossed the chord in flight, Baldwin recalls, "I instantly realized that everything in my life that I'd thought was unfixable was totally fixable--except for having just jumped."

      My argument isn't that all suicides are selfish, just too many. It's something I know intimately.

      by Mike S on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 09:34:51 AM PDT

      •  Mike

        I understand what you are saying. Having known several people that succeeded and also being one that did not in my much younger years. It is terrible what suicide does to everyone left here.

        by hiley on Sat Feb 26, 2005 at 01:43:51 PM PDT

•  Delusionally Cock-Sure and Over the Top Judgement?

  That's how this diary sounds to me. Having been acquainted, marginally, with Dr. Thompson, your diary is nothing if not a morally-charged and self-righteous note for excusing your own behavior during years of your teen age angst.
  Maybe you "meant" for your little sibling to find you?
  Be that as it may, "judge not lest ye be judged." (Or however that old saying goes.)
  

  by HiFlyer on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 10:00:45 AM PDT

  •  I was very careful

    ...to explicitly state that we didn't know if Hunter Thompson was suffering from a terminal illness or severe pain. At least I don't know. This wasn't really about him--this was about some of the comments I read in the thread about him.

    by ChurchofBruce on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 10:55:50 AM PDT

•  Suicide is a perfectly rational choice...

  ...for someone old who feels he/she has lived a full life and does not want to go through physical/mental deterioration and/or become a burden to children or other family.  I can't argue with someone who chooses that fate rather than ending up in a nursing home alone and helpless.

  by scorponic on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 11:28:23 AM PDT