Daily Kos

China about to kick US ass in Renewable Energy (poll)

Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:33:59 AM PDT


China Daily
Non-fossil energy sources, including wind, solar power and thermal power, will make up a bigger share of China's energy resources under a new bill passed yesterday encouraging use of renewable energy.

Yep, while Europe is quietly turning into a wind superpower (small pdf), and while the US says that the American Way of Life is "non-negotiable", dithers about supporting renawable energy (see below) and dreams about the Alaskan (smallish) hydrocarbon reserves, China is facing its very real energy problems in a more sensible way.

Would you have believed it, 5 years ago, that China could have more sensible policies than the US on such important matters?


Members of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress (NPC) approved the Law on Renewable Sources, which upholds renewable energy as a priority in China's energy strategy.

"The development and use of renewable energy has special importance because China is a developing country with severe energy shortages," Standing Committee member Li Congjun said at a discussion on Saturday.

The new law, effective next year, provides a host of practices to ensure that renewable energy can be produced, marketed and used.

It orders power grid operators to purchase "in full amounts" resources from registered renewable energy producers within their domains. It also encourages oil distribution companies to sell biological liquid fuel on the sidelines.

According to the law, power grid operators should buy renewable-source-generated power at directed prices calculated by the government. The extra costs incurred by this will be shared throughout the overall power network.

The law also offers financial incentives, such as a national fund to foster renewable energy development, and discounted lending and tax preferences for renewable energy projects.

Take my word for it, or do your own research, but they are doing all the right things to get renewable energy going:

  • guaranteed access to the grid (very important for intermittent porducers like solar and wind)

  • specific prices for each energy source. Most renewable energy sources are currently not directly competitive at today's energy prices, which do not reflect the externalities (pollution, military costs, depletion, global warming) of the current energy sources, and need to be helped. This is fair as it also reflects the lack of externalities of these energy sources. Wind is already almost competitive without help and will be very competitive when the alternatives are correctly priced to reflect their real cost on society; solar is still a lot more expensive but prices are coming down as economies of scale kick in and research advances.

  • long term framework. Renewable energy projects need 10-15 years to make sense economically, so the fact that you have a clear national strategy in that respect, and the corresponding political backing for it, is very important for investors as they know that the new regulatory framework will not disappear half way through.

Now consider how the US is supporting renewable energies. The main tool is the PTC (production tax credit), a tax refund that you receive for 10 years for each kWh of renewable energy you produce. The problems with that:

  • the fact that it's a tax refund means that you need an investor who has a big enough tax bill to benefit from it. That means that small developpers need to find financial investors to join them, and build complicated corporate structures;

  • there is no guarantee in the law that your power will be bought at all times, which, as I wrote above, is a big issue for intermittent power. So you need to find a buyer (usually, a local utility) that will accept to buy your electricity at all times through a bilateral contract. Again, more complexity, and the difficulty for small developpers to be taken seriously by the big utilities they will depend upon. Som states have a more favorable framework that encourages their utilities to support renewable projects, but it's on a case by case basis;

  • as the "Leave No Lobbyist Behind" Energy bill has shown, all other energy producers in the US get loads of tax breaks, advantages, subsidies that reduce renewable energy's relative competitivity and show most of all that there is no coherent energy policy in that country;

  • worst of all, the PTC mechanims has been limping on in the past few years. It expired in 2001, was renewed in late 2000 for 2 years only, and was caught in 2003 in the horrible debate on the energy bill - so was renewed only in late 2004 until the end of 2005. (Project will get the 10-year PTC if the project gets into operation at a time when the PTC rule is in place). As wind projects take about a year to develop (at least) and another year to build, this law has become essentially meaningless. Many projects have been on hold throughout 2004, waiting for the PTC to be reinstated; now they are all rushing to be built before the end of 2005, creating major strains for turbine manufacturers (which heavy industry can cope with demand jumping by 100% one year, dropping to almost zero the next year, and then jumping up again to new record level the next, and with high risk that demand will fall again after that??).

So erratic, inconsistent support, no longterm framework, it's a miracle that the US is still the third largest wind producer in the world (after Germany and Spain). But if Chinese plans go in accordance with all declarations (and everything points the same way over there) the US will soon be overtaken and China will have taken yet another advantage in the energy race between the two countries.


from the same article
It usually takes three reviews before an act goes to a vote. But this one was passed after the second round, with senior legislators acknowledging the vital need to get the nation on a sustainable energy fast track amid worries about the country's worsening pollution problems, chronic energy shortages and increasing reliance on imported energy sources.

China is getting serious about energy. When will the US do the same?

Poll

US Energy Policly

10%35 votes
0%2 votes
7%23 votes
59%190 votes
22%72 votes

| 322 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 187 comments

  •  Excellent news! (none / 1)

    For China, that is.

    It would seem that the american regime has only two speeds: stop and reverse.

    Come see TV from the reality-based community at RealityBasedTV.com

    by MarkInSanFran on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:37:53 AM PDT

    •  and in the global chess game.... (none / 1)

      ...dear leader and his toadies again show that they struggle with checkers.

      The whole PNAC policy is centered around confiscation and control of global energy (i.e. oil), thereby exerting American control over its competitors.

      Uh...except when your competitors realize this strategy a few years before you do and plan around it.  Well, at least we're halting nookular proliferation in countries like N. Korea and Iran, right?

      Nevermind.

      He who gives up liberty in exchange for security is deserving of neither

      by joby on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:20:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Indeed, it isn't about being short sighted... (none / 1)

        ...it's simply about hubris and power. It doesn't matter how much renewable energy you have, you will still need oil for manufacturing and transportation. As a result, Bushco is about controlling the world's oil supply. If the prices go up, Bushco doesn't see that as bad thing, but as a good ROI.

        It isn't about what is right for the world or good for the nation. It's about Bushco/Neo-con control and profit margins.

        The sleep of reason produces monsters.

        by Alumbrados on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 07:46:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  We ALL gotta BREATHE. Thank U China (none / 1)

      Good one: my fave:  DIM and OFF

      (Just like the Lucas electronics on my TR6.)

      We're building a passive solar house this Spring. I'm putting up a windmill next. I was told that there aren't too many all electric houses around here (WNY). Blows me away that with Lake Erie sitting right there that there aren't windmills every mile.

      The day is coming when a single carrot, freshly observed, will set off a revolution. Paul Cezanne

      by MeToo on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 07:55:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I know . . . (none / 0)

        But people find windmills to be unsightly. If they are designed right, they are beautiful. Unfortunately, they also kill birds and insects.

        In central New York on Rt 20, I believe the town is Madison, there are 3 very tall windmills on a hillside, quite stunning.

        Share. Share resources, share delight, share burdens, share the healing. If we only could realize that sharing will bring us back from mass suicide.

        by MarkosNYC on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:02:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for the info. (none / 1)

            It doesn't come from a completely unbiased site, but it does cite studies by impartial researchers and organizations.

            The early fears of bird kills were mainly due to poor results in the Altamont Pass near San Francisco.  That area was one of the first large scale wind power developments in the US.  Unfortunately, the high wind power density in that area also overlapped with the territory and migration routes of many birds including raptors.  Combined with the poor design of earlier wind turbines (small diameter rotors travelling at high speeds and thus harder to avoid in flight) the siting caused an unacceptibly high bird kill.  The older turbines in the Altamont Pass are being replaced with newer, safer turbines; ones with larger diameter rotors that travel at slower speeds but still produce more power.  This should help reduce the bird kills there.

            Siting in other parts of the country has been more successful in anticipating the impact on migrating and local bird populations.  Also, in other areas newer turbines have been installed, leading to fewer bird kills.  The problem has been reduced significantly from what exists (or existed) at Altamont.  People should look with some skepticism on claims of wind power opponents that rely upon Altamont data.

            If we are really concerned about the impacts of our development on bird populations we should really look at how power transmission lines, telecommunication towers and the night-time lighting of high-rise buildings affects those populations.  Those items pose a bird kill that I believe is orders of magnitude larger than from wind turbines.  

            Opposing wind turbines due to bird kill while not being equally adamant about stopping the other factors is, in my opinion, somewhat suspect.

            •  Good to know (none / 0)

              Altamont pass is starting to look like a showroom of all the different kinds of turbines. I was always curious why they don't run all of them all the time, now I know why.

              it's fun to learn
              cause knowlage is power!

        •  Bird kill untrue. Has become urban myth. n/t (4.00 / 2)

          Corruption is what keeps us safe and warm. Corruption is why we win. -Syriana

          by CarbonFiberBoy on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:12:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Spitzer and the nuisance neighbor (none / 0)

            What's killing me (asthma since I was 21) is the coal burning Niagara Mohawk plant in Dunkirk. Eliot Spitzer is going after them... which is the proper role of government...

            Respectfully, as a Bud, things are better when suffering is relieved over all. I'm sad that there may be accidents and injuries, even deaths due to structures-- but this oily path we are on is not sustainable for life in general.

            *Spitzer is NY atty Gen now in the beginning of his run for gov of NY and I'm going to be there to help him do it. His speech at the Environment 2004 Rally in Boston was an inspiration to how this land should be run.

            Something RFK touched on at the Enviro 2004 too:
            "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism,
            since it is the merger of state and corporate power."

            Benito Mussolini

            The day is coming when a single carrot, freshly observed, will set off a revolution. Paul Cezanne

            by MeToo on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:21:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  china is actually even further along (none / 0)

    china's government has already imposed some of these measures by regulation (such as the mandatory grid access) and the legislation is thefore ratifying existing policy (the NPC is pretty much a rubber stamp, despite the fact that many votes are NOT unanimous.)

    on the other hand, china also went ahead with the three gorges damn against pressure from environmentalists (some of them domestic and still unincarcerated, somewhat surprisingly) and is pushing ahead with additional nuclear power plants. have mixed feelings about this, as this may still be better than soft-coal fired plants.

    Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

    by gracchus on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:50:22 AM PDT

    •  yes... (none / 0)

      but the fact that you now have a clear regulatory framework will make it easier for foreign investment (including the turbine manufacturers to install local industrial capacity) to come in as well, and they can play a big role.

      Nuclear will certainly be big in China. The question of technology transfers from the West is likely to be a big one in coming years...

    •  At this point... (4.00 / 3)

      Nuclear is better than the alternative.  Global warming is a much more pressing and imminent threat.  

      Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

      by Asak on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 04:25:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  perhaps, but ... (4.00 / 2)

        ... radically increased energy productivity (efficiency) is cheaper and faster, hasn't got the same radiological pollution risk, and represents a vast, untapped resource. China seems to get this at a policy level, while the USA completely fails to (my comment downthread).  As a result, China may have a more sensible (cost-effective) mix of energy solutions than we do.  Meanwhile, policy in the USA is effectively completely supply-sided.  If we stay that way, we'll build more capacity than we need.

        Nuclear may have a role to play, or may not, but the first priority that we should 'exhaust' is all of the cost-effective efficiency opportunities out there that we've been ignoring for decades.  We should be looking at whole systems planning in which a variety of solutions may come into play ... in other words, there's not just nuclear and "the" alternative.

        I suspect we may be more on the same page than the two paragraphs above make it seem.  I just wanted to add another aspect to the discussion.

        Why, no ... I'm not voting for John McCain.

        by by foot on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 04:35:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Radiological pollution... (none / 1)

          ...is a bit like the urban myth about wind turbines as condor cuisinarts.  A great deal is known about how to control radiological waste and that knowledge is applied in all the countries that have nuclear plants.  People have knee-jerk reactions and rely on assumptions or junk science.

          All forms of energy production have a price.  Some are not as bad as others.  

          China understands, clearly, that wind and solar will be intermittent contributors to the energy picture and that it will need a reliable backup system 24/7 of coal, hydro, and nuclear.  Of the three baseload providers, nuclear is the cleanest and least damaging to health and to the environment.

          I agree with you that big-picture thinking is what is needed--how to use every possible resource to produce electricity while minimizing impact on the environment.  

          Central planning can result in great harm to public health and the environment--think of the filthy industry of E. Europe under the Soviets, and think of the cities in China choking with coal pollution, the atrocious mega-dams that will soon silt up and whose drowned vegetation will contribute greenhouse gases to the atmosphere.  On the other hand, central, long-range planning (as in France, for example, or Finland)can be wonderful.

          As long as energy planning in the US is tied to political whims, the US will continue its downward spiral into a banana republic.

          The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

          by Plan9 on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 10:02:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Excellent point. (none / 0)

          We are all debating supply side, but demand side is equally in not more important.  Despite decades of efforts to reduce energy consumption through effeciency in the US we still have only begun to take advantage.

          The great majority of energy used in this country is for powering buildings and automobiles.  Both of these areas provide huge opportunities to increase efficiency and reduce energy consumption.  Taking advantage requires political will and coordinated action, things completely lacking at the present time.

          There are existing programs available for increasing the efficiency of commercial and residential buildings.  They encourage upgrading of lighting and windows, adding insulation and installing the most efficient heating and cooling systems for a given region.  These programs have been pursued by commercial customers, but since they are often in the form of tax breaks they don't get the same sort of response from individuals.  We could save huge amounts of energy by pursuing these programs more effectively.

          Most people are aware of the need to reduce fuel consumption in new vehicles and the lack of progress we've made there in the last decade.  We need to get back on track there and hybrid vehicles are one good way of doing that.  Another is "cash for clunkers" programs where some large entity, whether it's governmental, non-profit or corporate, purchases older, drivable vehicles for a set price.  These programs, when publicized well, can help get some of the oldest, least efficient and most polluting vehicles off the roads.

          The demand side solutions are really straight forward and non-threatening.  They make sense in a conservative fiscal way as well as environmentally.  These should be an easy sell, but in this political climate, anything having to do with energy use reduction is tagged as environmentalist meddling or threatening to our economy.  It's plain stupid!

      •  I should also say ... (none / 0)

        I completely agree that global warming is an enormous threat.

        Why, no ... I'm not voting for John McCain.

        by by foot on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 04:38:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Nuclear fission and coal (none / 0)

        both suck. Global warming is certainly our worst problem, but lets not just change our poison from cyanide to strychnine. The nuclear option just makes no sense.

        Death of infants down wind of TMI was 28% higher the year after the partial melt-down.  For children under one month old, the figure was 54% greater. And, all without the containment dome being breached! The government squashed these figures and follow up studies.

        I fought this battle in the seventies and the safety factors have not changed. I am preparing a post on this subject called, "Too nuclear, or not too nuclear...?" I hope to have it ready today or tomorrow. Please look for it.

        Germany is already rejecting nuclear expansion, and it sure looks like China is looking for options.  Of course, our administration still thinks global warming is an unproven assumption, (or so they say...).

        If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly well are, aren't you?

        If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

        by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:44:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  don't get too excited (none / 1)

          china just called tenders from international contractors for a new nuclear power plants. if it makes you feel any better, china's government is dead-scared of nuclear accidents and as a result, the country's plants tend to be overbuilt.

          plus, the health effects of the terrible soft coal now being burnt are so dire for both infants and adult, that i think the risks of potential accidents are probably outweighed by the health benefits of guaranteed gains in air quality.

          Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

          by gracchus on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:55:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The health effects (none / 0)

            of expanded nuclear energy is easily as great as the threat from coal. Let's stick with what sustains us and not choose between options that will both kill us.

            IMHO: GET EXCITED!

            If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly well are, aren't you?

            If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

            by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 07:19:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  sorry, i don't buy that (4.00 / 3)

              at least not on your say-so alone. i've BEEN to chinese cities and seen what the air is like as a result of the huge use of soft coal. i've also read the statistics on life expetency, asthma, lung cancer, etc. i'm going to need a lot of convincing that nuclear power isn't cleaner and safer in terms of health effects.

              Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

              by gracchus on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 07:25:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There is nothing to buy. (none / 0)

                Nuclear energy is not safe and if you believe otherwise, you just do not know.  I have a long post I am preparing just to answer this. Itt has enough links that you wont have to take my word for it.  BTW, I am a lapsed nucleasr physicist who became anti-nuclear in the 60's.

                I concede that today's reactors are somewhat safer, but reactors constitute but a minor part of the problem in running a nuclear industry. Uranium mining pollutes the neighborhood and gives lung cancer to the lucky, highly paid miners. More reactors = more releases of radiation. Pretty soon you will have to forego dental X-rays because you will already have absorbed too much radiation. Fuel rods need to be delivered and if I were a terrorist I would drive alongside one of these trucks with mine, filled with twice as much shit as took out the Oklahoma City building. It would certainly wipe out an interstate for quite a few miles and close it for quite awhile, even if less than a hundred people die in the actual event.

                And fifty years ago they were saying, "We are smart enough to create this technology, we'll find a way to get rid of the garbage safely."  Well, two days ago, the governor of Nevada declared that Yucca Flats was dead. Whereto, now?

                Hanford is filling up and polluting the local ground water. These are just some of the related problems that are short enough to bring up in a comment.  When I try to convince you, it will be a long post. Two wrongs do not make a right. There is no lesser evil to deal with here. Germany has already agreed with this analysis and now has the biggest wind turbine program in the world.

                Try a few of these:
                Nuclear Pollution
                Three-Mile Island: Health Study Meltdown
                Nuclear Accidents
                Radiation Poisoning

                If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly well are, aren't you?

                If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:35:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  those are anti-nuclear advocacy sites (none / 0)

                  i'd be more convinced by studies by organizations without an ax to grind.

                  Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

                  by gracchus on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:43:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Duh? (none / 0)

                    Would you prefer a Repug site? Is this site just bullshit because we are all progressives or liberals? They are not lying. What is your point.

                    If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                    by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:46:34 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  no, i wouldn't prefer a repug site (none / 1)

                      but i would prefer an impartial study -- i would find that more persuasive. even honest advocacy work, is just that, advocacy work. i take it from the tone of your response that you feel there is only one side to this argument, and one permissible progressive point of view on nuclear power. if this is the case, i don't necessarily agree with you.

                      sorry if this is too rational an approach for you. and please mind your tone. mine was an honest request.

                      Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

                      by gracchus on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:57:11 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  These all are impartial (none / 0)

                        scientific studies that you would otherwise never see beacause no one else wants you to see them. Again, are you accusing them of malfeascence? Do you know better than concerned scientists, that they are wrong? It may be hard to admit you have been misinformed, but you have.

                        Run your own google search, if you do not like my results. There is nothing good to find there.

                        The sooner we stop throwing money on the impossible, the sooner we will come up with what is possible. The nuclear option is a total distraction and will kill us all before the fundamentalists behead their first victim in Wyoming!

                        If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                        by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:06:07 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  you're being a bully (none / 0)

                          and you're missing my point. read your posts -- do you really think you're arguing effectively in favor of your position? don't you understand that a non-advocacy study that backs your opinions while starting from a neutral position on nuclear power is going to carry greater weight than with someone who's rational and open to argument?

                          here's my concern: lung disease rates -- includling lung cancer rates -- are skyrocketing in china's city's as economic growth drives demand for power, which in turn leads to increased burning of soft coal to generate power. nuclear power may pose a lower health risk, according to some things i've read.

                          you disagree. that's fine. i'm willing to be pursuaded. then, when i don't immediately swallow the work of advocacy groups, you accuse me of being a misinformed republican (this is really funny) who's accusing fine scientists who agree with you of lying. this, unsurprisingly, put my back up and makes me less wililng to listen to you.

                          listen, i understand that this is an issue that you feel strongly about. but i think you would be better served by taking a more dispassionate approach. this would include not flying off the handle at people who are slightly skeptical and aren't willing to concede immediately that you're correct.

                          Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

                          by gracchus on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:25:05 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I came by way of being a pro-nuclear advocate. (none / 0)

                            I was convinced by the facts. I am also willing to be convinced I was wrong; but I have seen nothing that would do so.

                            If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                            by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 10:20:30 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Sorry about the tone. (none / 0)

                        I think you will find that I have given you 4's in the past for your comments. I am just absolutely seriously concerned that people are just not aware of how bad the nuclear program has been.  We need better solutions than the "least evil"; we need life affirming solutions so we can all forget about where our energy is coming from and go swimming.

                        And I am not being <snarkish> when I question your inability to pick the truth out of an advocacy site. That these may be advocates against the nuclear option does not diminish the truth of their work. In fact, many of them weren't convinced until after they did their research. The truth is the truth, and saying you are against something that you discover is wrong is the same reasoning that got Gannongate all the play it had on dkos. Were you convinced we were wrong just because we are all Democrats?

                        If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                        by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:18:30 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  my comment above posted simulaneously n/t (none / 0)

                          Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

                          by gracchus on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:29:37 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I am truly sorry (none / 0)

                            if I have offended you. One correction, I did not accuse you of being a repug, in fact I have given you 4's in the past. I am coming at this from the point of view of a person who initially was quite happy to find so much wrong with the nuclear industry. I thought I was going to design the better reactor. It was a life changing moment for me when I realized that the public avowals from the AEC were all bull, but I still thought I would find the great breakthrough! I am now totally convinced that there is no way to safely construct a nuclear industry. I realize that most people on this site were not even born, or old enough to be aware, that these arguments were going around thirty years ago and most scientists made sure that our nuclear proliferation was stopped. I was one of those, and if I have to convince another generation that it is a dangerous red herring, then so be it.

                            By the way, I say nuclear industry because the reactors are probably the least risky part of the whole concept. The longer they operate, however, the more radioactive they become (the building and the site it sits on). The original plans called for disassembling the plants after forty years, cleaning up the site, burying the wastes, and then building a new one. This lead to a realization that, all costs considered, they were not even that cost effective.

                            I know you really care about this issue, too. That is why I am trying so hard to show you the facts.  There really are not two progressive positions on this. I admit that global warming is such a vital issue that anything that looks like it may save us should be considered. That is why I am trying so hard. Nuclear energy is not a panacea; rather, it could be the end of Earth.

                            Necessity is a mother. If we do not bite the nuclear bullet, I am convincedd that millions of nerds laboring by candlelight will flood tomorrow's Patent Office with plenty of alternatives!

                            If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                            by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:50:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Some more sense. (none / 0)

                    Read, "The Law of Concentrated Benefit over Diffuse Injury" and, "A Wake-up Call for Everyone Who Dislikes Cancer and Inherited Afflictions".

                    They are both here.

                    If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                    by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:53:47 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes--let's have some objective reports (none / 1)

                    It is easy to find websites with "facts" proving that the earth was created in 7 days, that gays are evil, that the Clintons murdered Vince Foster, and that Saddam planned 9/11.  

                    There is such a thing as science-based information and the scientific method.  Random, double-blind studies using control groups are the gold standard for obtaining accurate data as opposed to faith-based information that arises from emotion and ideology.

                    The vast majority of studies regarding nuclear power indicate that health risks from nuclear power are lower than from any fossil fuel generation.

                    The vast majority of studies about Three Mile Island indicate no health effects among the population that can be attributed to the small amount of radioactive material that was emitted in gases that were released from the stacks and blew out to sea.

                    It is a mistake to confuse nuclear power plants and their virtually emission-free record with bomb-production days at places like Hanford many decades ago when few precautions were taken.  

                    The fact is that no epidemiological studies done using the scientific method have turned up an increase in illnesses associated with radiation
                    exposure at a level higher than natural background radiation.

                    In fact, the Hiroshima survivors, who have been studied for 60 years, show only a slight increase in cancer above the average that would be expected in their age group.  That population received a larger dose than anyone living in the US.  No birth defects have occurred among their offspring.

                    Predicted estimates regarding leukemia among people living around Chernobyl have turned out to be wrong--there has been no increase in cases.  UN and WHO studies bear this out.  The only increase in cancer is thyroid cancer, mainly in children exposed to radioiodine from the reactor debris who were not given potassium iodide pills.  There has been no increase in birth defects or in other cancers attributable to Chernobyl.  

                    In the Ukraine and in E. Europe the cancer rate has been rising for the past 30 years in a steady curve that corresponds to heavy industrialization and burning of fossil fuels, especially soft coal.

                    It is reasonable to assume that despite the worst nuclear accident in history,which befell the worst reactor design and worst engineering in a plant that was run in the worst possible way, nuclear power in E. Europe has saved many more lives than the 41 that were lost in the Chernobyl accident.  And most of those 41 were heroes who tried to fight the reactor fire.  

                    The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                    by Plan9 on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 10:27:50 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Just not accurate. (none / 0)

                      The vast majority of studies about Three Mile Island indicate no health effects among the population that can be attributed to the small amount of radioactive material that was emitted in gases that were released from the stacks and blew out to sea.

                      I can't seem to get the link to work, but are these some of the people who are trying to mislead us?  http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=so04mangano

                      If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                      by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 11:17:53 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Wing & Hatch studies are not considered... (none / 1)

                        ...correctly done. The Bulletin article tries to give the impression that those studies, out of the many done at TMI, are accurate and the majority of findings are wrong.

                        Believe me, radiation biologists and health physicists want to get accurate information. For about 100 years studies have been done on the effects of radiation on humans.  A lot is known.  What people do not realize is that we live in a sea of natural radiation and that the biggest manmade source of it is medical and diagnostic radiation.

                        The Bulletin, an avowed anti-nuclear periodical, is not necessarily the place to find science-based reportage that is accurate.

                        Articles like the one in The Bulletin are not peer-reviewed and do not meet the standards required by scientific journals.  

                        Such articles rely on anecdote rather than objective studies; the writers usually fail to put their information in context.

                        As it happens, the average person living in the Western US receives a higher dose of natural radiation every day than anyone living around TMI did during and after the accident.  People living in Pennsylvania who do not ventilate their basements are receiving a higher dose from radon than from anything that ever came out of TMI.

                        People hear that the rate of cancer is increasing in a particular place.  But what they don't realize is that in the industrialized world, as people live longer, the cancer rates continue to increase.

                        As for your scenario about blowing up a thick steel cask transporting spent fuel rods, I suggest you look into the engineering of those casks.  Your respect for the laws of physics ought to put your mind at ease.

                        Bro A., I know and respect your anxiety about nuclear matters. Many people share it, thanks to absurd scenarios on TV.  (The current "24" on Fox is an example of an impossible event and a source of misinformation about nuclear plants and radiation releases and radiation effects on human health.)

                        I urge you to refresh your training in the scientific method and to get your information not from partisans on either side but from objective research.  

                         And some aspects of nuclear technology do remain controversial. Other aspects need to be improved and will be. But you ought to know that people serving in the nuclear Navy and living cheek and jowl with reactors live longer than their non-nuclear Navy counterparts.  

                        And despite mishaps and bad planning in the early years of bomb development, the safety record of the nuclear industry over the past 50 years surpasses that of any other major industry in the US.  The fossil fuel, chemical, and automotive industries come to mind as comparisons.

                        The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                        by Plan9 on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 11:42:13 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I am not living in a cave. (none / 0)

                          Short-term, low doses of radiation may even prolong life. Probably the same way irradiated milk doesn't spoil without refrigeration. But we are talking about a world with significantly more mining, transportation and processing (because of our light water reactors) than it needs.  On many of your posts, probably out of exasperation at my intransigence, your final point is that it is better than burning coal. Perhaps, it is. But can you tell me what is good about it. It pollutes. The building and the site becomes more radioactive each year you persist in maintaining a hot core there. As for burying wastes, the Governor of Nevada just said, "Yucca Flats is a dead issue." That leaves us just where we were fifty tears ago.

                          We also disagree as to whether half measures are better than none.  If the nuclear industry were only half as polluting as coal, would that recommend it? WE are brilliant! If you had $300 billion dollars would you put it towards a war to secure oil, nuclear reactors, or a "Manhattan Project" to discover the best ways of making and transmitting energy, AND non-polluting ways to move us and goods around without having to kill anyone, would that be too tree hugging for you.

                          I think it is entirely possible, as long as we don't waste our time expanding our nuclear capacity. Anyway, our problem isn't oil or nuclear. That problem resulted from there being too many people. That problem has to be solved at the same time that we rewire our energy minds.

                          As well, I just note, that a link on this thread debunks the notion that windmills kill birds.

                          Lastly, I could not support any technology that begins with some Rumsfeld addressing a group of Uranium miners saying, "You men are heroes. A few of you may die of radon induced lung cancer, but America needs you. And we will give you all the protection, equiptment, and the best medical assistance that there is...

                          And please understand, I agree with almost everything that you have posted; you must have seen the 4's. But anything that kills and pollutes, should not be what we base our civilization on. Even if it will only kill us half as fast. Half as fast is half-assed. Lets both jump on a program that is non-polluting and life affirming. Like, for instance, clearing the morons from our government, so that real change can take place. And then, spend our dwindling wealth on the right technology.

                          If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                          by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 01:20:32 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  You left out (none / 0)

                          radioactive dentures

                          here is a good list. When reading this, keep in mind that living next to a nuclear reactor exposes you to 1 mrem a year, the same as your smoke detector.  And 400 times less than your pre-1986 dentures.

                          •  Less than 1 millirem (none / 0)

                            According to INEEL's Guide to Radiation Doses & Limits, the dose a person living near a nuke plant receives is .009 millirem per year.

                            That's thousands of times less than the dose an individual eating fruits, legumes, vegetables, and whole grains gets.  We receive 40 millirem a year from food.

                            Of course if you remove your radioactive dentures you are bound to eat less, so you've got that going for you.

                            The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                            by Plan9 on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:44:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  When I was in Beijing (none / 1)

                a few years back I spoke with a lawyer who was advising the energy policy arm of the government there.  He said they had studied it and found that they had nowhere tectonically stable enough to store nuclear waste in China.  The standard they were using was 10,000 years of stability and isolation from the water table.

                He also said the U.S. had no suitable sites and that includes Yucca Mt.  Nowhere in Europe is really suitable.  I think the places he mentioned were in Russia, Mongolia and Canada but I don't remember rightly.

                I left that conversation convinced nuclear was a stupid and terrible idea.  I think the people who favor it are either misinformed, corrupt or extraordinarily inconsiderate of posterity.  

                If you disagree, I ask you how can you justify leaving something awful that outlives you by hundreds or thousands of generations?  Are you some sort of god that you can make such a decision for so many descendants?  Why is your clothes dryer more important than drinking water for the world of the future?  The price of misjudgement is simply too high.

                Say nothing once, why say it again? - Talking Heads

                by Jason on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 01:42:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  A lot of geological research... (none / 0)

                  ...has been devoted to finding the safest, most stable place to store nuclear waste.  This research has been going on since the 1950s.

                  The National Academy of Sciences has recommended salt beds.  By their very nature they are stable for millions of years, sometimes for 250 million years.  They are not found in seismic areas.

                  There is a deep geological repository in NM in a salt bed that has been storing transuranic nuclear waste successfully since 1999.  It is located half a mile underground in a desert.

                  The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                  by Plan9 on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:47:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  If the figures were quashed... (4.00 / 3)

          ...how do you know about it?

          But seriously, I know of these studies and there's oen thing they have in common: while they point to x% increase in, say, leukemia in the vicinity of a given plant and then a y% decrease when a plant closes and so on, quite usually there are no absolute figures presented to compare with these relative figures.  And without the actual numbers, as opposed to the percentages, it becomes extremely dodgy science to make conclusions.

          Here's an exaggerated example: say that a new widget factory is built in a city a 1 million people.  Before the widget factory is built, on average 2 people a year in the city contract earlobe cancer.  After the widget factory is built, there's a period where it's up to 3 people a year.

          That's a 50% increase.  

          Represented by a single person.  

          If you look at the actual total compared to the overall population , it's gone from 0.00002% to 0.00003%.

          Not quite as fear inspiring, is it?

          What's more, there's also the problem of statistical clustering.  If something is random (or pretty near random), then from time to time you will get clustering.  Coin flipping, as an example.  Flip a fair coin enough times and you'll get runs where tails keep coming up, or in series of ten flips tails comes up 8 or 9 times.  It's a purely statistical artifact and utterly expected.   And for a short sequence, the odds of a clustered result go up.  Basic first year stats.

          However, humans are natural pattern recognizers.  When you see something like that, the natural inclination is to look for a cause.  Just now, for instance, I flipped a coin 10 times and got 7 heads and 3 tails.  Hardly unexpected.  If I flipped it 100 times, or 1000 times, I'd expect the results to be closer to 50/50, but for such a short sequence that sort of thing isn't unexpected.

          Now imagine that I was flipping the coin as part of a bet I had with someone, and I'm betting heads.  Winning 7 out of 10 times, they'd be likely to believe I was somehow cheating.  They're looking for a reason when one didn't exist.

          And that's what makes statistical analyses of medical issues not quite as simple as people would like.  If a given condition is distributed at random, or near random, then all else being equal there will be areas that will show an increased incidence of the condition (be it cancer, birth defects or something else).  And the natural inclination will be to look for a local cause, even if that local "cause" doesn't actually have anything to do with the condition.

          The only way to show there is an acutal relation (aside from cases where it's blatantly obvious: high arsenic levels next to a plant that releases high arsenic effluent is a no-brainer because there's a clear, physical connection) is to look at the entire spectrum.

          For instance, in one of those studies claiming a coverup or whatever as a result of TMI, someone compared birth defects in the counties downwind versus those immediately upwind.  "Aha!  Downwind had more!"

          Indeed.  That, however, doesn't necessarily prove squat.  If the incidence of birth defects was random it would be practically guranteed that through the magic of statistics and clustering and random distribution there would be cases where counties downwind of other counties had higher rates.  And there would be something around that people would blame for it.  A chemical plant, a nuclear plant, power lines, cell-phone towers, a silicone implant factory, a mine, a pig farm, whatever.

          I know that this is the same argument cigarette companies make, but in their case they have no ground to stand on because sufficient tests and direct links have determined that the link between smoking and lung cancer is well determined by control of external factors.  What's more, in that case it's a limited cause-effect.  Smoking results in increased risk of cancer to the lungs, throat, mouth and so on.  No one that I'm aware of links to an increase in, say, breast cancer.

          But when you get into blaming environmental causes (usually industrial ones), that sort of commonsense linkage goes out the window.  Take silicone breast implants.  They were blamed for a laundry list of problems that, if you bothered to look at it, sometimes made no sense whatsoever.  The same chemical was being blamed for totally different effects and, when you looked at specific symptoms, their occurance among women with implants was exactly the same as among the rest of the female population.  

          By grouping multiple symptoms, however, the people in the class-action suits made the situation look dire.  "X% of women with implants have problems!"
          Sure, but that X% is made up of conditions A, B and C, and the percentage of women with A, and the percentage with B, and the percentage with C, aren't much different from the percentage with those problems in the rest of the population.

          Using the exact same methodology, I could "prove" that not having breast implants was a danger.  That living next to a nuclear plant was the best thing you could do.  Heck, even that smoking was good for you.

          Basically, what I'm saying boils down to this: if you get to pick and choose, it's easy to find "evidence" leading to the conclusion you want.  This happens just as much on one side of an issue as another.

          •  thanks for that most rational post... (none / 0)

            ...on a pet topic of mine.
          •  I'm sorry alot. (none / 0)

            But you are not reading the data correctly. There was a direct correlation between deaths and exposure. Read thisand get back to me.

            Are you trying to say all this data is bullshit? I am not sure of the point you are making. PLlease enlighten me.

            If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

            by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 10:12:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Direct correlation" (none / 0)

              ...is easy to establish in a magazine article but is extremely difficult to establish in scientific research, especially when it is done outside of a laboratory and outside of controlled conditions.  And not so easy in a lab.  When someone is doing research on a population and on records after the fact, sometimes years after the event, many variants arise.  Even The Bulletin article acknowledges that.

              Take global warming.  It really does appear that there is a strong correlation between an accelerated increase in temperature and the rise in fossil fuel combustion, but few scientists would use the term "direct correlation"--their colleagues would frown on that.

              If you will remember a month or two ago, Yertle, a climatologist, did an excellent diary discussing some of the many variables and unknowns regarding climate change.

              I happen to believe that, given a growing body of strong evidence (not anecdote), global warming is in part fueled by greenhouse gas emissions, but my training warns me to keep this as a belief and not state it as a definite fact. (However, I do confess that in posts I sometimes forget to put in the phrase "it is my belief..."!)

              The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

              by Plan9 on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 12:49:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The more you comment the more human you become. (none / 0)

                Our problem stems from the fact that there are too damn many of us. Chillingly, we tried sterilizing as many Indians and Africans as we could bribe, in the 70's. I guess it did not work.

                It is only my belief that there is only so much biomass on the planet and that if too much of it is human, then at least temporarily, there is less of everything else organic.  There are already 6.3 billion humans and only 2.1 of them could live at the profligate energy level of the average American, if the rest died tomorrow.

                It is a little like an island with only rabbits and foxes.  The foxes eat most of the rabbits and then fight each other over meager pickings or die from disease.  When the foxes thin out, then the rabbits go crazy. Back and forth. So, I believe everything is in balance.  I would never say that this has been scientifically demonstrated. I might even consign it to the realm of a religous belief.

                But whether I am good at convincing you of anything or not, I know that nuclear energy will not make our lives better.

                BTW, I am still waiting for a few references that support the theory that nuclear energy is good, of and by itself, and not just the producer of less greenhouse mischief. This is not rhetorical; I am willing to learn.

                If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                by Brother Artemis on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:42:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Smallest footprint (none / 0)

                  A nuclear plant makes a smaller dent in the environment per kilowatt.

                  Half the electricity for NYC comes from nuclear power.  That seems to me a good thing.

                  Bro A, we keep mentioning that nuclear is better than coal because as things stand there are only two suppliers of baseload electricity (three if you count hydro, but that provides less than 6 percent in the US).  

                  Baseload electricity:  it runs 24/7, rain or shine.  Solar cannot do that and wind cannot do that.  You have to have a backup.  You could not run the NYC subways on solar or wind power--people would wind up trapped for hours.  Batteries to store the energy from solar or wind would have to be huge.  

                  Solar and wind are relatively weak sources of energy and require vast footprints.  They have to be located in remote areas if they are to be on a large scale, and that means a lot of new transmission lines.  And a lot more damage to Mother Earth.

                  The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

                  by Plan9 on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 08:56:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The smallest footprint (none / 0)

                    seems to me a rather modest recommendation. Destroying land with nuclear wastes need a much greater time to become sqafe again. If you add time to your calculations, I do not believe this adds any advantage. And, as I have said before:  the alternative is sacrifice and conservation until the money and time that we have is spent coming up with a whole new ball game, (I mean, what were Sundays before Abner Doubleday).

                    You choose between the poor choices we already have. I prefer to be optimistic and believe, as I have said before:  Necessity is a mother. A hundred nerds laboring by candlelight will swamp the patent office the next morning. I am for sufferring and waiting for the right fix that will not break us by having to be disassembled when the safe future dawns. Nothing that distracts from this noble aim should be permitted.  If we build them, we will be stuck with them and the expense of constructing and then deconstructing them.  Nuclear could only be a stop-gap.

                    Though I am over sixty, I still like looking at stars and cuddling in the dark. It does not have to be like medecine, and it may not have to be for long.  If we spend the research money on some of the ideas promulgated on this very thread, (and many of the other threads we have been dancing on), IMHO this would be the progressive pro-groovey-life perspective we should all have in mind.

                    I checked out the pro-nuclear green site and I have to wonder:  Is that all they have to say?  Yesterday someone gave a long statistical and silly proposition that 25 years of excess deaths downwind from TMI could be explained by a whole lot of people whose DNA says that they will die young, just happenning to live downwind from the reactor. OK. If we put this into a stochastic model, what is the liklihood of each explanation? That criticism was pure gobbledegook; I know it wasn't from you but don't you think such specious reasoning does little to help your position. And if you criticize the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientist for biased interpretations of data...hmmmm.  I can make up my own mind. So how come the only things on the pro-nuclear site seem to be your bullet points: Smaller profile [maybe not/but so what]; no greenhouse emissions [Nor is there any from chocolate malteds; why don't we all drink a chocolate malt and then run on a treadmill to work off the calories and make a little H2?]; cheaper per kilowatt hour [If the wastes cost you nothing!].

                    Do you know any sites that actually will tell me why nuclear energy is good, rather than less bad?

                    If you get to it, and you can't do it, well, there you jolly-well are, aren't you?

                    by Brother Artemis on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 05:01:38 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Theres another hazard (none / 0)

            The usual standard for publication is 2 sigma (1 in 20). But if you look at 20 diseases, one of them will (randomly, for no reason at all) be over-represented at 2 sigma level.  This one disease will be published, and the 19 null results will be ignored. This is why every 7 months the newspapers scream that coffee/cheese/wine cures/causes cancer/stroke/syphilis.
    •  china's 'environmental' policy (4.00 / 2)

      clean renewable energy as well as non-environment friendly dams and nuclear power?
      that's because china isn't interested in environmentalism, they are interested in becoming the next superpower.  having to fight tooth and nail with the us for every last drop of oil for their increasingly oil-hungry economy is not conducive to their desire for power.  they would also cease to be dependent upon a certain very unstable region of the world.
      they want to compete with us economically, and if they develop dependable renewable energy first they will have a huge technological advantage over the gas guzzling u.s. which would then need to import our clean energy products from china.    globalization is not just a race to the bottom, for some countries it is a race to the top.  they don't just want 'our' crappy jobs, they want the good ones too.  china does not want to get stuck exporting nikes forever, which is why they are investing in research schools, computer companies and yes, renewable energy, which i would argue is the prerequisite for the next superpower.

      the secretary of war is out of order. so's the plumbing. make a note of that. -groucho marx

      by rufustfyrfly on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:32:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  China's starting to 'get' efficiency, too. (none / 1)

    China is starting to see radically increased energy productivity as a key component of its energy planning.  Here's what the Chinese Premier, Wen Jiabao, has said:

    http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/2/6/175228/7117/78#78

    source:  here

    Why, no ... I'm not voting for John McCain.

    by by foot on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 04:26:42 AM PDT

    •  Energy efficiency... (4.00 / 3)

      is the biggest "reserve" we have, and it's usually one of the cheapest. It's amazing how little we do to tap it, indeed.

      This is the right place to link to the Rocky Mountains Institute which focuses on this very topic and is very  dear to the heart of Meteor Blades...

      •  Yes (none / 0)

        And it is good to keep this in mind when discussing the relative evils of energy options, as in the discussion of nuclear power above.  We can keep trading off our lungs (coal) against our fish (hydro) against our genes (nuclear) against our climate (petroleum)--or we can invest in increased efficiency and conservation.  New designs and especially new attitudes toward energy use are very low cost and very effective tools in this fight, and it is only after we trimmed the copious fat from our profligate energy patterms that we should engage in  hard discussions about the relative demerits of different energy sources.  
        •  Pyromania (none / 0)

          Beneath it all is a fundamental desire to burn, for the thrill of it, for the sheer freedom from purpose: proof that we can do whatever we want, even though we don't have anything in particular to do. Maybe even burn the world when we're done doing nothing.

          Conservation would require such a radical transformation of American culture, a transformation not without risks: replacing our heirarchy of wastefulness with the one thing social conservatives fear most: rational values.

    •  china's potential gains from efficiency (none / 0)

      are probably smaller than the u.s., given that per capital energy consumption is so much lower.

      Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

      by gracchus on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:11:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed. Good point. (none / 0)

        They may be seeing the smaller gains they may get with a clearer eye than do we ours.  Strange, since we have so much more to gain.

        There may also be other issues involved, such as the rail bottleneck mentioned downthread.

        Why, no ... I'm not voting for John McCain.

        by by foot on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:20:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  only in the sense (4.00 / 2)

        that at this material standard of living, they  have less room to improve. if you assume (and i do) that the average chinese citizen will begin to use inreasing amounts of energy-consuming applliances as their incomes rise, then there is the very real possibility of using energy efficiency measures now to limit the rate of increase of energy use in the future.

        additionally, i think we underestimate the amount of, say, coal or heating fuel that could  be conserved by switching to better insulation, weatherstripping, solar water heaters and other crude efficiancy measures in china's rural north and west. the difference between a classroom on the northern side of our building in beijing was several degrees colder than one on the lee side just b/c of the nut-freezing wind constantly blowing through. with double-pane windows and some weatherstripping, that could have saved a significant amount of energy.

        surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

        by wu ming on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:21:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Are you serious? (4.00 / 2)

    Would you have believed it, 5 years ago, that China could have more sensible policies than the US on such important matters?

    But of course, at this point just about every industrialized nation has more sensible polices on just about everything.

    Don't Tread On Me

    by BobX on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 04:27:52 AM PDT

    •  Saddest thing is, none of these ideas are new (none / 0)

      For instance, when Mario Cuomo was Governor of NY, his very innovative Public Service Commission Chair, Peter Bradford, required that power generators bidding to provide new capacity to in-state utilities got kWh price bonuses for cleaner power, thus starting to internalize the environmental costs of different fuels.  Coal got no bonus, oil got a very small bonus, natural gas a bigger bonus, and of course renewables the biggest bonus.  Just one example of the range of things we should have been doing 15 years ago.

      One of the biggest disappointments with Gore was that he didn't do more to push all these ideas.  My guess is that after the dysfunctional 103rd Congress (the last Democratic Congress we've had) wouldn't bite on the BTU tax in 1993, they gave up on anything big on the energy front.  Mostly, probably thanks to Toe Sucker Dick Morris and his "Democrats should buy half the Republican line" approach to life.

      Fitting that that arrogant little blowhard Ron Silver played the Dick Morris character on West Wing.

  •  Pretty pathetic... (4.00 / 6)

    I can't believe Germany has more wind power than the US.  I mean, it's honestly pretty pathetic.  We're talking about a country with 1/25 the size of the United States and with an economy 1/5 as large...

    Yet they have more wind power...

    The United States is seriously an embarassment to the developed world, and this is just further indication of our apathy and coming decline.  

    Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

    by Asak on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 04:29:54 AM PDT

  •  Visited China in December (none / 0)

    Can't speak to the overall energy policy,  just some micro observations.

    Just saw one city, Shanghai. Of course the hotel and restaurants were heated, but in all of the public institutions that we visited (3 different colleges) there was little or no heat. People dressed with two layers on all the time. In the one home that we visited, it was clear that they hadn't used their heater yet this year, as they took off the plastic covering and turned it on for us. Individuals and families consume much less heating energy than we do. In many of the neighborhoods, there are not electric power poles but the wires are strung along the side of the buildings. They are much more spartan than we are in terms of individual energy consumption.

  •  This is a topic dear to my heart (none / 0)

    especially since "my heart" is only two years old and he will reap what we in the US have sown, long after I am gone.

    The Bush admnistration has so much razzle dazzle going on that it is hard to decide where to start to counter it, much less try to jolt people out of their comfortable ruts of energy consumption.  But we need to beat the "sustainability" drum loud and long, and not let up.  FDR once replied to a question beginning "Why don't you . . . ?" with "Because you, the people must first `make me' do that." Well we have got to make our representatives get on the stick!  Let them know how you feel and don't let up.  Come 2006, we will have more power and may be able to effect real change.  Let's send the class of 2006 in their with an environmental mandate.

    While I'm at it, I want to suggest Lester Brown's Plan B as a good book to start reading.

    Sometimes a .sig is just a .sig.

    by rhubarb on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 05:00:41 AM PDT

    •  Uh, (none / 0)

      "there" and not "their."  I'm not an igmo, honest.  Just sleep deprived . . .

      Sometimes a .sig is just a .sig.

      by rhubarb on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 05:02:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  my heart too/children's future (none / 1)

      When I saw photos of my son's orphanange in China and found they had installed solar panels since 99 - I had to ask myself what I was waiting around for? So my family will put in extensive panels this year(hope to be to 100% of our energy.) Our rural electric coop will even BUY energy from us if we produce more than we need. It is only a small start but we are going to have to take these steps until there is sanity in our leadership on this.

      The pump don't work 'cause a vandal took the handle.

      by Chun Yang on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 05:48:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  China exporting technology (none / 0)

    China and India see a global requirement for alternative energy and will be more than happy to export that as well, especially to third world countries where they will reap diplomatic benefits as well.

    Yet another market that the U.S. is behind the power curve.

  •  Can't help but be struck by the irony (none / 0)

    that when Walmart allowed its Chinese workers to unionize, and shortly afterward closed a store in Canada to prevent unionization, the conservatives were all aflitter about how China's corporate policies are a capitalist's wet dream. And I noticed how quick the liberals were to point out their newfound love for communist politics.

    So now China does something right that makes the liberals ecstatic, and here we are cheering about what a good model global citizen China is. How ironic.

    •  Painting with a broad brush? (none / 0)

      It seems to me that "model global citizen" is a bit more broad than simply recognizing that some of China's energy thinking seems to be better than ours.  I'm not sure people are calling China a "model global citizen" here.

      Clearly, China has other problems, just as we have some things we do very well.

      Why, no ... I'm not voting for John McCain.

      by by foot on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 05:17:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  i think the fact that china is doing better (4.00 / 2)

      than the u.s. on this issue is a lever that can be used to wrench american policy in the right direction, because the attitude of many people will probably be "CHINA is doing better than US?! CHINA?!"

      Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

      by gracchus on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:02:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Part of the reason for this (4.00 / 4)

    China's internal rail structure is at a breaking point: 80% of Chinese Rail traffic is just hauling coal to factories and power plants.  They're actually facing some considerable shortages in coal right now because of the delivery strain.  They're in a significant energy crisis, and recognize it as such.

    We're frogs in a steadily warming pot.

    We have no desire to offend you -- unless you are a twit!

    by ScrewySquirrel on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 05:17:16 AM PDT