Daily Kos

The hidden cost of SUVs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:14:23 AM PDT

My friend Scott was talking to a co-worker, who had bought an expensive SUV, and justified it with "safety" for his children. Scott got mathematical on his ass... (thanks Scott, for relating this story on LiveJournal!)

Had a very interesting conversation at work with a co-worker. A young dad who "has it all". He just bought a $35,000 SUV....

HIM: "But I have kids...I'm looking out for their safety...and with our lifestyle, we NEED an SUV!" And then I asked them some key questions that made them think about their "safety investment" for their children.

ME:"How much more expensive was this than say, a roomy economy car like a Saturn Ion?"
HIM: "Oh I don't know, it was $35,000." (about 22k more than the Ion...I use the Ion as an example)

ME: "Ok... do you have an account set up for your kid's college education?"
HIM: "Well, we need to start that soon, but our kids are only 4 and 2."

THEN... I sat down with him..and we experienced the POWER of MATH!

If the average 4-person family finances a car every 5 years (60 month loans are common), and this is their "starter" car, and they plan on keeping their payments about the same for the next 15 years while their kids reach college age, just on the RETAIL price, they would spend $60,000 more.

We did more math over that 15 year period

Total Retail Cost $100,000
Additional Interest - 2.9% as a guide (if they kept current interest rate) $1740.00
Cost of Gas at $2/gallon given 17 mpg, average of 12,000 miles per year = 10,000 gallons of gas = $20,000 spent in gas

So, just in gas, retail, and interest costs based on today's prices, they will spend almost $122,000 on SUVs. There may be more costs..but we used this as a marker.

Then we looked at the more fuel efficient Ion..roomy, big trunk, tons of features $13,000. 32 mpg.

Total Retail Costs $39,000
Additional Interest $1131
Cost of gas given 32 MPG, $2/gallon, 12000 miles per year = 5625 gallons of gas = $11,250
We rounded this up to $52,000 for the cost of 15 years of this kind of car.

"Well, what's that? $4700 more a year for my safety and convenience? I'm not worried."

"But what if you were able to put $4000 into an Education Savings Account EVERY YEAR for 15 years for your kids?"

$4000 a year of TAX FREE MONEY!
Even by average estimates, he would have an additional $125,000 to finance his kids' college education.

"What do you think your kids wil thank you for more at age 18? That you bought big cars and paid all that money every year for them, or will they thank you for being able to finance their education in full? So...how DO you plan on financing your kids' college education in 15 years??"

HIM: (....speechless)

It baffles me how we have probably more consumer debt than anytime in history, and folks just aren't thinking smart.


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  •  Nice work (4.00 / 7)

    Well done. I'm generally opposed to SUVs because 1) they're overpriced pieces of crap 2) They're incredibly dangerous to others on the road 3) they're incredibly dangerous to the occupants.

    But all of these arguments roll off the backs of your average SUV driver like so much water off a duck's back. Scott has brought it all home in a much more direct manner.

    (If you want to know more about SUVs and their 'safety', read Keith Bradsher's 'High and Mighty' And then go out and buy a minivan)

    •  I'm generally opposed (none / 1)

      to any vehicle that is taller than it is wide.  I don't want to make a simple turn and flip over about fifty times.

      St. John the Maverick: patron saint of liars, lobbyists, and Bushes.

      by DH from MD on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:40:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I almost... (4.00 / 2)

        ...saw this happen in SF once. Ahead of me on the offramp from 101 was some SUV. It wasn't too graceful in making the turn, and went up on two wheels before settling back down on all four.

        A scary moment. And one that is well-nigh impossible to do in a real car.

        •  Damn. (none / 0)

          I live in the D.C. area, and at least once daily some car rolls over on the Beltway.  And nine times out of ten we are told that it was "an SUV which was speeding".  Sometimes they will shake things up and say it was a Hummer, which is another POS that I will never touch.  Let me just say that I love my mom's '98 Malibu...

          St. John the Maverick: patron saint of liars, lobbyists, and Bushes.

          by DH from MD on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:57:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This... (none / 0)

            ...is exactly why I'm happy I don't have to take the Beltway to get to work (Live on Capitol Hill, work in Annapolis. Going against traffic...what a joy)

            I saw an overturned SUV on the outer banks once. It had hit a patch of road where there was a little water and a little sand. It was completely upsidedown all the way over on the other side of the road. (Bradsher's book explains how why this happens)

            My hybrid didn't even notice the difference in the road surfaces. Cheers to Civics!

      •  yeah (4.00 / 2)

        I saw the horrific aftermath of an SUV rollover. It was clipped by another car and flipped so many times you couldn't tell what model it was.

        End result: 2 dead teenagers in the road (wear your frickin seatbelt goddamnit), one injured bleeding pinned passenger I had to help pull from the (smoking) car and the driver, miraculously untouched.

        That it could rollover so badly after a very minor accident was terrifying. and if you don't have your seatbelt on in the back of those things, your ass isn't staying in the damn thing. It will end up in the road.

  •  Safety (4.00 / 4)

    Not to mention the safety thing is a fallacy.  
    •  No doubt (none / 0)

      I wouldn't be surprised if the Ion is safer than the the avg SUV. The highest safety-rated mid-sized cars are almost always cheaper than SUVs for the same or higher safety ratings.

      Bipartisanship: I'll kiss your elephant if you kiss my ass...

      by surfbird007 on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:06:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Active Safety VS Passive Safety (4.00 / 2)

        The european view about safety is that you need both good passive and active safety.

        A nimble car with good brakes that helps you avoid getting into accidents, and when you get into one; good crumple zones, good airbages, etc.

        The american view about safety seems to be: "accidents are inevitable, some I'll drive a big tank and hope I survive".

        So they buy SUVs that are harder to control, more rigid (less crumple zone to absorb energy, so passengers absorb more of it), that roll over and take longer to brake because of the massive weigth, not to mention that they cause a lot more damage to what they hit (and themselves when they hit trees and walls).

        Letting others around you drive properly also doesn't seem to be a priority, with SUVs blinding beams and height that blocks the view of people behind.

        •  The number one cause of SUV accidents... (4.00 / 2)

          Ironically, the number one reason these "off-road" vehicles have accidents is that they run off the road.

          Drive a normal car off the road at highway speed (we've all done it) and it can be safely returned to the pavement without incident. Drive an SUV off the pavement and you lose control due to its poor design and high center of gravity.

    •  right (none / 0)

      Safety comes in maneuverability!

      Navigating through this basement that masquerades as a nation... --Atmosphere

      by AlanD on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 10:30:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  High & Mighty: The Dangerous Rise of the SUV (none / 1)

      Exactly. People buying SUVs for safety are plain delusional. I recommend "High & Mighty: The Dangerous Rise of the SUV", great book on the subject. Very in depth.

      Not to mention that SUVs keep us dependent on foreign oil, are very heavy so they take longer to brake, that all wheel drive does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help you brake, that the center of gravity is quite high, that they are built on truck frames that are rigid (so they absorb less of the energy on impact -- the passenger absorb more of it), that they obstruct the view of people driving behind and blind those in front, have high rollover rates, will get extremely dangerous as soon as a generation of second-hand SUVs in poor mechanical condition gets in the hand of young drivers, have bad visibility in the rear, etc..

      In short, SUVS ARE GODDAMN SQUARED-OUT MINIVANS (except that minivans have more space, are more fuel efficient and safer)!

  •  More insight into SUV 'safety' (4.00 / 6)

    Abe: My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is not a porn star!

    by Sylvester McMonkey Mcbean on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:06:45 AM PDT

    •  that chart (3.75 / 4)

      Excellent link. I particularly like that chart.

      What I find especially annoying is that subset of SUV drivers who hears about how much more dangerous SUVs are for anybody in a smaller vehicle that they hit and says, "Not my problem". As long as they feel safer, it's doesn't matter whether they actually are safer and they really don't care if they make the world more dangerous for other people.

      Hmmm. That seems kinda familiar. In what other context do we see that attitude?

      "All progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Bearpaw on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:24:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That attitude is certainly reflective of... (4.00 / 8)

        ...the smug arrogance that some people possess. National Geographic did an article last year about oil consumption ["The End of Cheap Oil?" April or May 2004]. In it was a photo of an Atlanta family and their SUV. The caption quoted the mother as saying, "I know it uses more gas, but I love knowing that anything I bump in to, I win."

        There are so many ways to deconstruct this argument to demonstrate this woman's arrogance, carelessness, and selfishness, that it barely warrants discussion here [insert 'preaching to the choir' comment]. But, let's have at it for the benefit of lurking conservatives...

        "I love knowing that anything I bump into, I win." -- Translation: I don't have to know how to drive defensively; my car will absorb the impact excusing me from having to be a safe driver. Further, I can be reckless as I care to be; my car makes me consequence free.

        "I love knowing that anything I bump in to, I win." -- Translation: I win and somebody else loses. To 'win' implies that somebody else loses. Thoughtlessly unspoken is that somebody else loses. Doesn't matter what they lose [limb, life, child, whatthefuckever], as long as I come out on top as a result of my own devil-may-care driving attitude that all this metal affords me to have.

        I lost my faith in nihilism

        by PanzerMensch on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 08:48:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The essay's bit arrogant but mostly right. (none / 0)

      First of all, like many professional drivers, the author seems to think that ALL accidents can be avoided by paying full attention at all times.  This is not a realistic expectation.  If you have to commute for an hour one way, how many people can honestly say they maintain a laser-like focus the whole way?  The point is, any potentially dangerous situation can be compounded by various factors to the point where even an experienced driver runs a high risk of an accident.  

      Even the hypothetical scenario with avoiding a kid running onto the road and dodging oncoming traffic can easily be complicated with something like snow, rain, time of day, and etc.

      The point of passive safety is not to crash through brick walls and trees with abandon.  It's to save your sorry butt when you happen to let your guard down at the wrong moment.  

      Unfortunately, SUVs take this to the extreme where any marginal collision safety benefit comes at the expense of others' safety along with a slew of other issues that crop up, such as reduced maneuverability and the tendency to roll in overly sharp turns.  

      In fact, it's probably safer for SUVs to RAM through obstacles than try evasion without proper training.  A while ago there was a story about a young woman who got killed while trying to avoid a turtle on the road and rolling her land-barge.  Obviously this doesn't apply if the obstable is a ped.  

      In the perfect world, every car would have good passive safety without sacrificing the survivability of others or the ability to make evasive maneuvers.  Also, every prospective driver would spend at least a few months in a high Gs driving school to learn how to discover the limits of themselves and their cars.  Unfortunately, this situation is similar to the guns vs karate debate.  In the end, karate may be more satisfying and elegant, but guns get the job done consistently and with only little effort or experience - even if they make a way bigger mess.

  •  This is great... (none / 0)

    Thanks for posting...
  •  Insurance (4.00 / 3)

    SUVs are also more expensive to insure, so your friend could have also included that into costs.
    •  Is it? (none / 0)

      Wasn't there a brief insurance discount since a crash involving an SUV was less likely to leave badly injured survivors that need big bucks for hospital care.  So, those involved in an accident were more likely to be either killed or barely injured.
    •  Indeed (none / 0)

      Insurance is only one of the costs to consider.

      The example given is way understating the true costs of driving the guzzler.

      I don't have time to work it all out but if you were to consider investing the difference in costs between the SUV and a normal wagon the guy would be astounded.

      If the guy applied the difference to paying down his mortgage early he'd probably find that the SUV costs him well over $100,000 for the (dubious) safety factor.

      •  Also include... (none / 0)

        ...the costs of a future (presumably Democratic) admninistration deciding to tax SUV's according to their excessive level of road wear.  Currently they are taxed as cars, not trucks, even though they typically cause similar amounts of wear and damage to the roads as a large truck.

         - Trendar

        "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" - Edmund Burke

        by Trendar on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:41:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is an example of structurally bad law (none / 1)

          Good, general law wouldn't distinguish things called "trucks" from things called "cars". It would instead refer only to real physical and economic properties -- weight, gas consumption, cost, and the like.

          Law that mentions specifics can reward and punish specific companies and interests. It makes for worse policy, and sinks politics into the mire where campaign finance blends into bribery (by business) and extortion (by legislators) with no way to tell the difference.

          Better to not go there. Pressures toward structurally sound law can help a bit.

          A reply to a big, juicy lie: "If that were true, McCain would have said it himself, but he won't because it's nothing but a lie." Not much to argue about.

          by technopolitical on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 12:10:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  never happen (none / 0)

          the UAW would have a fit
  •  Also (4.00 / 6)

    They also tear up the roads at a much higher rate than other cars.  They're as heavy as some commercial trucks, but weight restrictions that apply to commercial trucks are never applied to them.

    In my state, we're in a constant road repair crisis; never enough money to keep the roads safe and in good repair.  SUVs contribute to that, and that's a real cost to all of us.

    •  odd, isn't that? (4.00 / 3)

      They aren't restricted by weight the way commercial trucks are, but they use the same classification that commercial trucks use to get around mileage standards.

      I lost my faith in nihilism

      by PanzerMensch on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 08:50:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just another example (none / 0)

        It's just another example of the "I want it, so do it," attitude.  There's no consistency, just the manipulation of rules to gain advantage.  And the republicans say they're the party of moral values!  I'd laugh if I wasn't busy being run over by their stupid H2 Hummers.
  •  Good Work! (none / 0)

    I find it so amazing that folks who get upset about "peak oil" theories, pollution, the middle east in general, still buy SUVs.

    One other thing, a cell phone in the hands of an SUV driver is doubly dangerous as their visibility is already limited due to their size.  

    NetrootNews coming soon!

    by ksh01 on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:17:05 AM PDT

  •  You'll probably enjoy this site then (none / 1)

    One more thing to worry about.  The sheer disdain displayed to Hummer drivers.  I love the pix of Hummers that are stuck in the mud.
    http://www.fuh2.com/

    If you can't support the veterans you have, don't make any new ones.

    by slackjawedlackey on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 06:21:32 AM PDT

  •  HOLY HELL! (none / 0)

    I am BOOKmarking this diary! That's fracking useful! Thank you!
  •  Or a nice wagon. (3.75 / 4)

    It is not so much that SUV's are less than cars or vans, it is that they are considerably less manouverable, and so are invooved in more collisions than the others. Couple this with the fact that many SUV owners drive them as if they were cars, and you can see how this rate increases. Also, simple physics plays a role: the more mass, the more inertial energy to be distributed in collisions.

    Auto engineers refer to the front passenger seat as the "death seat", as this is where most fatalities occur. This rate is more pronounced in SUV's.

    Without any scientific proof at all, I feel comfortable with this theorem:

    The smaller the penis, the larger the vehicle.

  •  Oh it is Safe For Me (none / 0)

    Which it is not, but it really makes it dangerous for everybody else.

    "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom." - MLK, jr

    by NCJim on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:03:52 AM PDT

  •  New car on the block (4.00 / 2)

    The other big financial hit ... buying new.

    The total price of all the cars my wife and I have bought over the last 15 years or so is well under $35K.  A couple were clunkers,  but at least 3 of them were in good shape at the time they were bought.  We still have one of those, the loan has been paid off in full, and it probably has at least another 5 years to go.

    "The torturer has become like the pirate and slave trader before him, hostis humani generis, an enemy of all mankind." Filartiga v. Pena-Irala, 1980

    by ColoRambler on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:05:10 AM PDT

    •  You must be good at buying cars. (none / 0)

      I have never bought one either new or used and am saving money now.  I want to save up enough to get a used car that I can buy with cash, no loan.  So, cheap.  Any tips for not getting ripped off?

      How can we get over it when people died for the right to vote? -- John Lewis

      by furryjester on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 09:15:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't know about "really good" (4.00 / 3)

        and in any event, one or two were clunkers, though at the time, a clunker was all I really needed.

        I'd say it's distilled common sense, along with some extra patience.  A few things that I've done:

        1. As part of the test drive, take the car to a mechanic for a quick once-over.  This will turn up any obvious problems you can't live with.  This also gives you bargaining power if the car has a couple minor problems you can live with.  Nowadays you can sometimes find places that specialize in this sort of thing (analogous to a home inspection before buying a house).

        2. Go with a friend or family member -- more eyes spot more problems, and if you go to a car dealer, it makes it harder for the dealer to hassle you.  Not impossible, true, but harder.

        3. Watch out for, and take seriously, anything that looks like a major warning sign:  rust (superficial is OK, beyond that, watch out), fluid leaks, signs of water damage, etc.

        4. If "cheap" is the most important thing, and so you're buying a used car that's more than 3 or 4 years old, you will have to lower your expectations a bit.  In particular, be prepared to spend a few hundred dollars on repairs off the bat.  There's usually a minor problem or two in an otherwise good older used car.  One car I bought needed a new radiator straight away.   Once that was taken care of, it lasted over 5 more years with similar minor repairs (about one a year) despite having about 100,000 miles on it at the start.

        "The torturer has become like the pirate and slave trader before him, hostis humani generis, an enemy of all mankind." Filartiga v. Pena-Irala, 1980

        by ColoRambler on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 09:39:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  check out Consumers Reports (none / 1)

        they do detailed reports not only on new cars, but also have reports on the reliability and repair records of models as they age. CR also gives you plenty of advice on how to find a car you like, how to negotiate with dealers and where to find the best price and model you want. Their annual report on new cars is on the news stands right now.

        A couple of friends who have bought rental cars from Hertz and are very satisfied with their purchases.

        If you are going to spend more than a couple of thousand dollars on wheels, spend a couple of hundred doing research, you'll be happy with the results.

        •  CarFax and Car Max (none / 1)

          I am a strong believer in buying with cash and not absorbing the first year depreciation costs.

          Check the car out with Consumer Reports...some years/models have more problems than others. NEVER let anyone rush you. If the car is meant for you,  it will still be there. Always, always, always have the car checked by a mechanic.

          Make a check list for the little things. Does the lighter work (so you can plug in the cell phone)?   Does the antenna go up and down? Is the spare tire good? Do all the door locks work?  DO the windows go up and down?

          Check carFAX.  This service tells you about any known damage to the vehicle based on the VIN number. Some folks will refurb a car that has been in a serious accident.  It looks good but is structurally unsound. CarFAX can help you ferret out the bombs.

          I bought my last car at CarMax for 8K, (32k miles). I have had it for 4 1/2 years - no problems.  CarMax sells used cars and inspects them for damages.  All cars are under 3 years old. You can look at the cars online. Again, don't let anyone rush you.

          Edward R. Murrow:We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.

          by digital drano on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:02:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  ask yourself this... (none / 0)

      financial advice:

      do you want to borrow money to purchase something that loses value?

      that is, how much are you willing to pay for a money hole?  a car loses most of its value within 2-3 years, so are you willing to pay a 30%-50% premium for a "new car smell?"  buying a honda accord or ford taurus just off a lease may be your best deal if you are willing to put your ego in check.

      think about it.

    •  that's true for us, also (none / 0)

      but then we've only bought one car each in that time period (if you include the cars we bought before that, you probably still wouldn't exceed $35K, though I don't know exactly what my husband spent on his first 2 cars).  However, both our cars are 12 years old now, so I wouldn't be surprised if we had to replace them both soon.

      We're debating (hypothetically, since we're not actually in the market yet) between a minivan (wish they made hybrid minivans!), something green like a Prius (though w/ 3 kids, that's difficult), or something intermediate like the Accord we have now.  I was disappointed that CR clocked the new Hybrid Accord at only 25mpg -- since the conventional 4-cyl Accord came in at 24mpg, it hardly seems worth spending the extra $.  We're hoping to be able to hold out w/ our current cars until you can buy a decent used hybrid.

      •  The hybrid Accord (none / 0)

        is a V-6.  Basically you get 6-cylinder performance with 4-cylinder mileage.  Yeah, it would be nice if Honda hybridized the plain ol' 4-cylinder Accord, but maybe they figure that market is already covered by the hybrid Civic.

        My family is already trying to explore future car options...even though we're a one-car family in practice, having the second car around is handy at times.  What we'd like to end up with is a minivan (or something similar) and a small hybrid like the Prius, but between not wanting to buy new, not wanting to sell the existing main car, and having a clunker as the second (maximum value:  $1K), it will probably take us a few iterations to get there.  

        "The torturer has become like the pirate and slave trader before him, hostis humani generis, an enemy of all mankind." Filartiga v. Pena-Irala, 1980

        by ColoRambler on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 02:05:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hybrid minivan coming (none / 0)

        but not fast enough.  Believe that there will be Honda & Toyota variants of their minivans as hybrids in 2006 ... along with some more hybrid SUVs ...

        Had to go the minivan route (with getting rid of a Geo Metro) due to family growth last year.  Wish that we could have had an option for a good diesel or hybrid, just not there.

        Problem for us next year is that we are decidely used-car buyers.  Do we wait 3-4 years to get a hybrid? ??? Don't know ...

  •  Toyota RAV4 (none / 0)

    Gets 30 mpg (better than Escape Hybrid), has ULEV ultra low emissions rating, has more interior space than a Lexus SUV, is built with a baja rally car chassis, and unlike American SUV's is utterly reliable.  If you're lookin' for a decent alternative.
    •  a RAV 4 is (none / 0)

      a death trap

      "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

      by mlangner on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:09:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not according to (4.00 / 2)

        The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.  You can see their ratings here.
        •  Well according to the... (none / 0)

          IIHS its "Acceptable" which is okay.. but there are more crashworth small 4 wheel vehicles with lower center of gravity, e.g., Subaru Forrester...

          "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

          by mlangner on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 10:51:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Rav4 is death trap? Not hardly. (none / 1)

        It is a rally driver's vehicle.  It does not roll over like a typical SUV will.  I mean just in the interests of truth.  Maybe you're thinking of the Suzuki?
        •  And that is why (none / 0)

          Our family finally got one, since we now live in the mountains, on an unpaved hill with a reaaalll long drive way, and there is no way our trusty little Toyota Corolla (even with studded snow tires) was going to get us in and out during snow storms.

          Even my equally trusty Saturn wagon (with studded snow tires) won't always get up the hill.

          So reluctantly, I must confess I am finally sold on the SUV, although I never, but never drive the RAV unless I have to.  It is a winter vehicle.  The Saturn is the summer vehicle, and freeway vehicle (if we can get it up and down the hill) and the driving in big cities vehicle.

          Driving an SUV is totally different from a sedan or wagon.  It does, however, handle ruts on unpaved roads, and the odd snowbank, quite well.  But you can't get much speed up on those things to start with.  :)

          Excellent diary, by the way.  I hate sharing freeways with SUVs.  And night driving is an especial hazard with those glaring bright lights in your rear view mirrors, but that's my current moan about big vehicles and monster trucks.

          When my country, into which I had just set my foot, was set on fire about my ears, it was time to stir. It was time for every man to stir. -- Thomas Paine

          by original practice on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 08:31:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You are one of the... (none / 0)

            2-3% of Americans that actually NEED the clearance that an SUV provides.. in which case it makes sense to have one..

            "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

            by mlangner on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 10:52:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  RAV4 (none / 0)

            is supposedly one of the most popular vehicles in Alaska because of the very reasons you cited.  Must be good in the snow.
            •  It is very good on snow (none / 0)

              and if you have studded tires, it can manage a lot of ice, as well.

              Now if only I had a source of cheap, renewable, non-polluting fuel.....

              When my country, into which I had just set my foot, was set on fire about my ears, it was time to stir. It was time for every man to stir. -- Thomas Paine

              by original practice on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 01:14:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Got one (none / 0)

      And I love it.  I highly recommend them to friends and family.
  •  I don't know that a Saturn (none / 0)

    Ion is an appropriate comparison for an SUV.. especially if space is a consideration - two kids and their gear will easily overwhelm a smallish sedan like an Ion (and space is often the number one reason people cite for getting an SUV)... a minivan would have been a far better comparo...  Minivans tend to be safer than cars (they are larger so they fare better in car to car warfare, don't roll like SUVs, weigh less and stop faster than SUVs, can be bought with AWD for "safety", have more storage space and flexible seating and get better gas mileage than SUVs to boot) and its high near impossible to spend much more than $35K on a minivan...

    "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

    by mlangner on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:08:49 AM PDT

    •  Toyota Estima (none / 0)

      This is a hybrid minivan, with AWD, sold in Japan, that supposedly gets over 40 mpg.  Carrying capacity and AWD give it two of the supposed SUV advantages with few, if any, of the downsides.

      It's only sold in Japan.  I don't know why.

      "The torturer has become like the pirate and slave trader before him, hostis humani generis, an enemy of all mankind." Filartiga v. Pena-Irala, 1980

      by ColoRambler on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:21:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hybrid Sienna ... (none / 0)

        ... should be coming in in 2006/7.

        The struggle against religious extremism begins at home.

        by cracklins on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 10:08:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  steering side (none / 0)

        In Japan, drivers sit on the right, not the left. So they have to tool up for left-side driving for the export market (other than to England and a few others).

        If it's a good seller, it'll come here soon enough.  Japanese companies generally don't cut off their nose to spite their face like Americans do.

        By modern definitions, Jesus was a terrorist.

        by Leggy Starlitz on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:16:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hard 'a starboard (none / 0)

          No, I understand the left vs. right steering bit and all.  It's just that a vehicle like this seems like a total no-brainer in the U. S. market.  

          The AWD feature alone is a biggie -- here in Colorado, having AWD in the winter is very desirable, but once you're out of the SUV / truck universe, it's harder to get.  Not completely, of course -- that's a big reason most of the cars my wife and I have bought over the years have been Subarus.  But Subaru doesn't make a minivan...

          "The torturer has become like the pirate and slave trader before him, hostis humani generis, an enemy of all mankind." Filartiga v. Pena-Irala, 1980

          by ColoRambler on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 02:22:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  No, (none / 1)

      people SAY that space is the primary reason but if that was so they would all be driving minivans. The real reason is FASHION as we all know.  

      Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin Survivor Left Blogistan

      by boran2 on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 09:10:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Domination (none / 0)

        is the reason people buy a big SUV.  They want to feel big and powerful.  You don't buy an H2 or an Excursion for any other reason than to be the biggest vehicle on the road.  A lot of people buy slightly smaller SUV's only because they can't afford an H2.

        just really tired of all the bullshit.

        by bitterguy on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 10:25:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Too true.. (none / 0)

        my wife and I were both anti minivan.. we drive a wagon right now, but we need more space and the SUVs aren't much larger than our wagon...

        Then after driving many SUVs and not liking any of them (harsh ride, limited space, WAY too heavy, lousy stopping distances, etc.) we bit the bullet and drove a top of the line Honda Odyssey... that that was that.  It is as nice as our german lux wagon inside (actually nicer materials), loaded to the gills its about 35% cheaper than our wagon, it gets better gas mileage, and has more power...  No doors for the kids to swing into other cars in tight parking spots.. and I can put about 5 bicycles in it and still have room for the kids to sit..

        Hard to argue with that...

        "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

        by mlangner on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 10:58:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly! (none / 0)

        It's all about ego. A bunch of middle-aged baby boomers who want to project the image that they are not in fact settled down suburbanites.

        They just need to lead less empty lives instead of thinking that buying crap will make them happy.

        •  Guilty... (none / 0)

          as charged.

          Does it help that I don't live in the suburbs?

          And that I'm going to try to find new meaning in my life by starting an organic garden this summer?

          I think the size argument is probably true.  That's why I'm so embarrassed about owning a RAV.  Especially as I'm only just over 5 feet tall.  

          The shame, the shame of it.  :)

          When my country, into which I had just set my foot, was set on fire about my ears, it was time to stir. It was time for every man to stir. -- Thomas Paine

          by original practice on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 01:24:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I drive an Ion (none / 0)

      Seldom have anyone in the back seat, but I routinely carry large items with the seats folded down.  Last major load had five adults (three late-teeners in the back) plus a trunkload of luggage behind them.  Close quarters, but we made it work for three-hour trip.

      Rubus Eradicandus Est.

      by Randomfactor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:26:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  my next door neighbors have a suburban (none / 0)

      and we just bought a used subaru forester (love it!).  considering the gargantuan exterior footprint of our neighbor's vehicle, there isn't all that much more room in it than our forester.  the back bay is about the same, the same headroom, but there is more legroom in the suburban.

      the roominess of these vehicles is a myth.

  •  Big toys (none / 1)

    My coworker recently (4 mos ago) bought an extended cab gigantic truck for his own general amusement. he commutes alone in it for 60 miles a day. At some point this month he realized how much he's paying in gas (18mpg), and is now in the market for a motorcycle (45mpg)...the truck may soon become an expensive museum piece in his garage.

    People really don't think these things through...

    •  Unbelievable. (none / 0)

      What a stunning lack of foresight. Good thing our bravest are out there helping freedom on the march to subsidize said lack of foresight.

      Ashcroft: I don't have a copy of the [UN] Convention [Against Torture] in front of me... Elsinora: I do! Would you like to borrow it?

      by DrReason on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 09:45:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  maybe when all the rich bastards... (none / 0)

        ...are all driving expensive hybrids after unloading all their gas-guzzling SUVs on the poor folks (who will all be living in their nice-sized automobiles because they can't afford rent and gas), the rich bastards will get fed up subsidizing someone else's "irresponsible fuel consumption" and finally come out against this "war on terror."

        The radical invents views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them. - Mark Twain

        by FemiNazi on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 10:26:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Seeing fewer on the road (none / 0)

      I think I'm seeing a slight downtick in SUV numbers on the road.  I was noticing this today.  Can you imagine how the numbers will decline if gas goes up another $1?  

      Want to get a laugh?  When you pull into the gas station in a normal vehicle, find out what the cost is to fill up that huge gas-guzzler next to you.  Sometimes the attendants have told me it's $60 to fill one up!  I visualize the driver as tossing $20 bills onto the ground.  And my car probably goes further!

      People who bought the Excursions and Suburbans are starting to look odd.

  •  SUVs are not safer (4.00 / 7)

    From http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50C14FF3B5B0C748DDDA10894DC404482:

    National Highway Traffic Safety Administration figures show gap in safety between sport utility vehicles and passenger cars last year was widest yet recorded; find people driving or riding in sport utility vehicle in 2003 were nearly 11 percent more likely to die in accident the people in cars; says crash fatalities declined across board in 2003 to lowest levels in six years, with 42,643 people killed in traffic accidents in US; Ward's AutoInfoBank says SUV's accounted for 27.2 percent of all light-duty vehicles in first seven months of 2004, up from 26 percent in period year earlier.

    From http://www.drivers.com/article/513/:

    But the SUV has a serious safety problem that has put the public at risk: its tendency to roll over.

    From http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/cars_and_suvs/page.cfm?pageID=1513:

    Despite the claims of the auto industry and its allies, SUVs and pickup trucks are not safer than cars. In some cases they are among the most dangerous vehicles on the road today due to design choices made by automakers. The most recent analysis by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) found that, in 2003, drivers and passengers in sport utility vehicles (SUVs) were 11% more likely to die in an auto accident than people in cars.¹ The primary driver behind this statistic is the tendency of SUVs to be involved in single vehicle, rollover accidents.

    Rollover Risk

    • Occupants of an SUV were nearly three times as likely as occupants of a car to die in a rollover accident, in 2003.
    • SUVs are more likely to roll over than other vehicles on the road because of their propensity to "fishtail" and their higher center of gravity.
    • When SUVs rollover, they fail to provide occupants adequate protection from ejection and "roof crush."

    Being in a vehicle that is taller, heavier, and stiffer may create an illusion of safety, but the fact is that these are not vehicle design attributes that determine safety--either for the driver of the vehicle or others on the road. In fact, lighter and softer, unibody designs can lead to safer SUVs.

    Not only is buying a Saturn Ion (or equivelent) cheaper, and more fuel efficient, it's safer.

    "History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells, 'Can't you remember anything I told you?' and lets fly with a club." --John W. Campbell

    by bhurt on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:14:53 AM PDT

    •  Hand the SUV (none / 0)

      the Darwin award!

      Happy the man and happy he alone--he who can call today his own ... John Dryden

      by ohiolibrarian on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:07:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Safety is psychological (none / 0)

      Most people are just plain bad at risk assessment and don't understand probability and statistics very well. So they decide for psychological reasons. SUVs look big and tough. When you drive a small car surrounded by big trucks it's very intimidating (and unsafe if their bumpers are much higher than yours).  It's very much an arms race mentality, and the decision is both psychological and selfish. If you hit something smaller in an SUV, you're safer. In every other scenario you're less safe.
  •  3 improvements (none / 0)

    1. You didn't compound the interest on the loans to pay for the SUVs, and you picked a really low rate, so it's usually even worse financially than you claim here.  On the other hand, you didn't allow for recouping costs on resale or keeping the vehicle past the loan life, one of which should happen.

    2. Your friend should also know that minivans, not SUVs, are the safest vehicles on the road.  A luxury sedan is about the same safety level as an SUV, as its handling and acceleration allow you to avoid collisions, while SUVs' rollover rate and instability drag their numbers down.

    3. Did I mention they're planet-killers?  If your friend lives in southern Florida or Louisiana, he'd better check whether his third SUV can go amphibious.

    This isn't Republicans vs. Democrats, it's Republicans vs. Democracy.

    by randompost on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:14:53 AM PDT

  •  folks just aren't thinking smart (none / 0)

    THAT is the gist of the problem

    Stay the Course will be their epitaph

    by lawnorder on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:15:24 AM PDT

  •  This is bull (none / 1)

    if you spend $35,00 on a car the only gets 18 mpg is that ok?

    if you spend $18,000 on a car that gets good milage but is a death trap is that ok?

    with all the real problems in the country and world today, does this really belong here?

    By the way my Ford Escape 4cyl and 5 speed manual transmission and gets 24 city and 29 hwy.

    And seats my 3 kids in the back.

    •  safety ratings (4.00 / 3)

      Saturn Ion

      Ford Escape

      Which one is the death trap again?

      btw, not having enough to send kids to college IS a real problem in the world today.  Unwise spending is a real problem.  The difference is that Democrats DO something about it, and Republicans just rationalize short-sighted selfishness.

      By modern definitions, Jesus was a terrorist.

      by Leggy Starlitz on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:31:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  According to those ratings... (none / 0)

        ...neither is a death trap.

        "We've done the impossible and that makes us mighty."

        by Dissento on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:48:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I have a Georgia tax exempt savings account (none / 0)

        for each of my kids. Also in Georgia we have the Hope scholarship which pays tuition in a Georgia college for all students with a B average.

        So what do you drive? Is it newer than five years old? If not you're polluting the environment more than my new vehicle. But since it's not an SUV I guess it's ok?

        And while we're at it, I'm a Finance Director for a Public Library system. We don't exploit workers for a profit, we don't exploit natural resources, or pollute the environment converting those natural resources to a product you didn't even know you needed until we made it.

        What do you do?

        I've never voted Republican. I'm lucky to live in a District that just sent an admitted Liberal Democrat to congress in John Barrow. Everyday I stay alert to ways to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. I consider this site one of those ways.

        Now I feel ostracized because I bought an SUV.

        Thanks, I guess the only thing left to do now is put the confederate flag license plate on the front bumper.

        •  We can leave the mini-SUVs out of this (none / 0)

          Keep this in mind:  whenever you hear SUV bashing, you can pretty much assume they do not mean the compact, lightweight, lower, wider, generally more fuel economical compact SUVs.  No one's ostracizing you for driving a Ford Escape.
        •  taking it a little personally? (none / 0)

          I drive a six year old Subaru Outback - large enough to haul the family in.  No options on it.  I take public transportation to work. And i work as a software analyst at the Federal Reserve, making the entire financial system more efficient as a public service.  

          And i didn't knock you for owning an SUV.  I knocked you for calling the Ion a "deathtrap" when it is, in fact, safer than your SUV.  You were repeating the sort of conventional wisdom hogwash that people use to rationalize their SUVs. If you want to own an SUV, go ahead.  But don't pretend it's safer, lest someone in the reality-based community smack you down with actual facts.

          By modern definitions, Jesus was a terrorist.

          by Leggy Starlitz on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:09:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  agree with your third line (none / 0)

      apologies to the diarist, but I'm tired of all the SUV-bashing. I don't know when SUVs became The Enemy, but much of the reasoning and rationale for this diary is shaky.

      I'm all for bashing obnoxious idiots in ostentatious, hideously overpriced cars. But why on earth is this limited to SUVs?? Is it okay if someone spends $40,000 on a BMW or Mercedes sedan. as long as it's not an SUV?? I guess so!

      Besides, why single out the car as such a dubious purchase? Why not crunch the numbers of every single buying decisions a person makes?

      Could they do without a bedroom in their house? That one extra bedroom or bathroom will end up costing them thousands and thousands over the life of their mortgage! And why would you send your kids to a private school if a public school is basically just as good? That will cost thousands and thousands! Have you thought of eating home more often, instead of going to restaurants? That's hundreds of dollars a year! And so on.

      Unless you're prepared to play H&R Block and go through all their assets and expenditures, it's somewhat manipulative to pin it all on the Hated SUV.

      "The time has come. The time is now. Just go. ... I don't care how. You can go by foot. You can go by cow. Hillary R. Clinton, will you please go now!"

      by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:52:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You find this manipulative? (4.00 / 2)

        Ít's an easy savings.  The guy in the story has no savings for his kids' college, but he has a 35k car that is worth 10k less after it rolled off the lot.  

        Funding education is a political issue.  Pollution is a political issue.  
        Transportation falls in this category as well.  

        This is a good discussion of what our priorities are.

        As far as the other bedroom goes, when you buy that house, or add that room, your house is worth a lot more.  You might actually consider this action a form of saving for your kids' education. Purchasing a car is money down the drain.  You get to use the car- which is very important as a family, but you're not getting anything substantial back.    

        I don't think your comparisons are very on target.

        "Treat them with humanity. Let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British army."

        by otto on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 08:01:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (4.00 / 2)

          As far as the other bedroom goes, when you buy that house, or add that room, your house is worth a lot more.  You might actually consider this action a form of saving for your kids' education. Purchasing a car is money down the drain.

          Money down the drain? Cars have no trade-in value? A $35,000 car won't return a significant amount? More expensive cars hold their values disproportionately to lower-priced cars. (Good luck getting more than a few thou back on an Ion, even if it's in great shape.)

          But that's not even the point. The comparisons were completely on-target, because if someone is going to get read the riot act because of the car they drive, why stop at their car? If you're going to kindly offer your evaluative services for free, at least have the courtesy to look at ALL their assets and expenditures to see where else they're "wasting" money.

          Funding education is a political issue.  Pollution is a political issue.  
          Transportation falls in this category as well.

          We're not talking about "funding educationn," unless you mean "funding that guy's kid's education." This is about private individuals making private purchasing decisions to privately fund their own children--this isn't a government program that affects us all. (And if you have enough income to buy a $35k, you're probably not qualifying for any hardship awards or Pell grants, so it doesn't work to say this guy's car forces his kid to dip into our public funding.)

          Yes, pollution is a political issue. But ALL cars pollute. And as I've said about a dozen times on this site, there isn't some amazingly huge difference between an SUV that gets 18-mpg and a car that gets 23, especially when you don't have any idea of how much this person even drives. (That's great if someone has a gas-sipping Civic, but if they drive 500 miles per week and the SUV-owner drives 100, guess who's the worse polluter here?) We rip people for what they drive, but seemingly give a free pass to car manufacturers who could easily reduce ALL cars' efficiency and pollution if they so deigned.

          And what does transportation have to do with it? We believe in individual freedom, yet we want to force people to buy the type of car WE want them to buy? Heck, I bet there are people who regularly bash SUVs but actually own one themselves--yet consider themselves "different" because they "need" it (b/c of kids, work supplies, etc.) compared to all those "other" arrogant, wasteful, selfigh SUV-owning road hogs.

          "The time has come. The time is now. Just go. ... I don't care how. You can go by foot. You can go by cow. Hillary R. Clinton, will you please go now!"

          by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 09:03:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  An underappreciated point. (4.00 / 2)

            Yes, pollution is a political issue. But ALL cars pollute. And as I've said about a dozen times on this site, there isn't some amazingly huge difference between an SUV that gets 18-mpg and a car that gets 23, especially when you don't have any idea of how much this person even drives. (That's great if someone has a gas-sipping Civic, but if they drive 500 miles per week and the SUV-owner drives 100, guess who's the worse polluter here?)

            I technically have an SUV.  It's a Subaru Forester, though, which is closer to the RAV-4 end of the spectrum than the suburban-battleship end.  Moreover, my family and I picked from among a somewhat limited array of used cars that had the features (and lack of repairs or other crud) that we wanted.  The Forester won out narrowly over the non-SUV -- but no more fuel-efficient -- Subaru Legacy that was our second choice, mostly because it was a little newer and in better shape.

            More to the point, I work from home, and my wife only works 2 days a week, during the school year.  We are, for practical purposes, a one-car family, and we put about as much mileage on the one car as  most folks do on each of their 2 (even 3) cars per year.  We probably use less gas than most car-owning families excepting those who have hybrids for all their cars.

            "The torturer has become like the pirate and slave trader before him, hostis humani generis, an enemy of all mankind." Filartiga v. Pena-Irala, 1980

            by ColoRambler on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 09:47:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Poor Example (none / 0)

          The Saturn Ion comparison appears to have been suggested by someone without kids. If you have a couple of kids and you ever drive a couple of their friends or the gear needed to travel with children, you need something bigger than the Ion. A mini-van might be a better choice, but the price differential between mini-vans and SUV is small or non-existent depending on what models are involved.
          •  not exactly (none / 0)

            but the price differential between mini-vans and SUV is small or non-existent depending on what models are involved.

            That isn't entirely true.. the MOST expensive minivans Odyssey and Siena can be had in the Mid-30's.. mine was $36 and I couldn't order any more options.. a lower trim level Odyssey can be had for around 26-27.. Mazda MPVs for less than 20..

            Regular SUVs are in the 30s and Lux SUVs (which are a better comparison for the top of the line minivans from an equipment and materials standpoint) start in the low $40s and go up from there - e.g., a V8 Volvo will run you low 50s..  so will Infinities, Lexuses, BMWs, Mercedes, Caddys..

            "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

            by mlangner on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:10:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Price (none / 0)

              There are quite a few small & mid-size SUVs priced below $30,000. Plenty of large ones above that, too.
            •  huh? (none / 0)

              Unless you're talking about larger SUVs like Expeditions or Suburbans, there are plenty of SUVs that can be had for well under $30k. Here's a partial list that took me 5 minutes to compile off Yahoo:

              Jeep Grand Cherokee- MSRP $26,230 - $34,145
              Jeep Liberty - $19,380 - $25,225
              Honda CR-V -  $20,195 - $25,250
              Toyota Highlander -  $24,280 - $31,580
              Nissan Pathfinder -  $24,650 - $34,750
              Ford Escape Hybrid - $26,780 - $28,405
              Ford Explorer SportTrac -
              $23,970 - $31,240
              Chevrolet Blazer - $21,305 - $24,305
              Chevrolet Equinox - $21,320 - $24,660

              Then there are even more that start in the mid- to upper-$20,000s.

              "The time has come. The time is now. Just go. ... I don't care how. You can go by foot. You can go by cow. Hillary R. Clinton, will you please go now!"

              by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 02:07:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  A compact SUV (none / 0)

            could be an even better choice than a minivan for those with children, if you don't quite need that much storage room, prefer less bulk, more nimble driving, easier parking, and (often) better gas mileage.

            A Saturn Vue SUV might have been a better comparison for the diarist to use--20 mpg (city)/28 mpg (hwy) and $10,000 less for a V6 FWD with sunroof, leather, blah, blah, blah.  Baby's carseat fits easily, with room for future kids, and enough trunk space for all the baby cargo.  I own one and love it.

      •  SUVs became the enemy when... (none / 0)

        ...they became trendy.  Jeep Wranglers and Cherokees have been around forever, and if you bought one before, say, 1990, you knew you were really getting a comfortable "truck", and it had to be driven differently.  And just because it had 4WD didn't make you invincible on ice/snow/water.   And you couldn't take corners as fast, or make abrupt turns in them.  And if you kept all of that in mind, they weren't any more unsafe than a passenger car.

        The introduction of the Suzuki Samurai made them "cute" and popular.  And then they got bigger.  And even more popular because of the "it'll crush anything it hits in an accident" theory (disregarding the typical crumpling of the passenger compartment).  And things that should not have been forgotten were lost.  As far as safety goes, people just need to realize that they aren't driving a car, and they'll be fine.

        Either I or my wife have owned an SUV, since 1990, but we treat it with the respect they deserve, with the exception of the most recent one, we buy them used, and run them into the ground.  Two years ago this month, in a fit of trying to improve my footprint on the planet (and in no small part due to the further war for oil), I traded my old Bronco on a VW New Beetle.  11 mpg to 45 mpg overnight.  (Did you know that "pay at the pump" machines cut you off at $50?  Ask me how I know...) And it'll run on biodiesel.  I estimate that switching to that car as my daily driver has saved us about $2500 over the last two years.  To say nothing of the maintenance costs of a new car vs. a 10 year old.

        I'm pretty much rambling now, but if I had to sum it up in a few relatively coherent thoughts, I'd say:  SUVs are not inherently evil.  However, the views some people have concerning their capabilities, their safety (disregarding that of others, and the inevitable costs that has on their own insurance rates, etc.), make them much more dangerous than they should be.  

        Political Protest Techno by gee dub bee. Yes, techno. No, really.

        by geedubbee on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 09:37:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  SUV's (none / 0)

        are specifically exempted from pollution and safety regulations that apply to passenger cars.  If they had to meet the same standards, I'd be much easier on 'em.

        Rubus Eradicandus Est.

        by Randomfactor on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 11:29:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You are saying the Ion is a death trap? (none / 1)

      I think not.  This is the conservobabble line on big/small cars.  Extending that line of thinking, by choosing an SUV you are creating a hazard for other people on the road.

      But actually that whole equation is wrong.  SUVs are not safer than smaller cars.  And everyone would be safer if there were fewer of them on the road.

      Of course, while I may not agree with what you buy, I support your right to buy it.  For some families an SUV may be a sensible choice.  

      But I really wish we did not have the large auto makers pushing them because they make more money on them, and until recently, refusing to be responsible about fleet gas mileage.  This whole subject is a poster child for why Government regulation can be valuable.

      Apparently I have made the unbelievably naive error of overestimating the intelligence of the American people.

      by Citizen Clark on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 10:49:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My sister (3.66 / 3)

    has two young boys, and drives an AWD SUV.  Her reasons are we live in Syracuse (lots of snow in winter) and she needs it to get around (she has a long commute on a very treacherous highway). I have long given up any arguments about it.

    While at our dealership, my sister mentions that her lease is almost up on her Explorer, and she wants to lease a new one.  The owner says Ford won't lease Explorers any longer in NY because of all the lawsuits (looking at me - I'm the lawyer - how did this get to be MY fault?).

    I tell my sister - hey, maybe this is a good thing, maybe you should be getting a different car, a van with AWD, not an SUV.  Stone cold silence.  My sister is PISSED.  

    So she BUYS a new SUV.  It's HUGE.  Has all the bells and whistles.  I think it even makes coffee.  When gas prices go up, she uses the cell phone to tell her husband where the cheap gas is.  I shake my head, drive my little Grand Am without AWD (and I'm fine), and keep my mouth shut.  

    We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

    by Mary Julia on Fri Mar 11, 2005 at 07:23:45 AM PDT