Great Diaries Being Lost: DailyKos Needs Sections

Several times over the past weeks I have seen outstanding diaries disappear off the bottom of the page into diary oblivion. Often these have been posted by diarists who live outside the U.S. time zones, so that by the time the bulk of dKos readers are awake and clicking, the diary from overseas has been bumped off the front page.

It's also true that domestic U.S. issues garner more attention than international affairs, and diaries treating important but less sexy international issues tend to attract fewer clicks, fewer comments, and fewer recommends.

Result: we are losing a chance to discuss some really important issues.

What to do? My ideas further on...

As the readership of dKos grows, and expands outside the U.S., the front page simply isn't big enough as it's now structured to hold all the diaries being posted for long enough (i.e., 24 hours) to give everyone a chance to see them.

I think we need a front page that includes the main postings by Kos et al, and the Recommended list, but then gives readers a chance to view Recent Diaries in one of two areas: Domestic or International.

If recent diaries are posted in these two different sections, those posted in the wee hours of the U.S. time zones and those that deal with international issues will get a fair chance of being viewed by all dKos readers, and we will all benefit.

Whaddaya think? Is the problem I am writing about a real problem? If so, is my proposed solution sensible?

Fire away!

•  Diary's

  Sounds like an idea to explore.  Would consider another section for financial diary's.  There are several excellent people (like BondDad) who regularly write wonderful stuff and it drifts off the diary list way too fast.

  (Actually, I would like to see a separate list of the regular daily diary's, that alone might lessen the pressure on the diary list.)

  by JWC on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:28:32 PM PDT

•  asdf

  yeah, it's a problem but...

  i don't think splitting the diaries into sections will really combat the problem of "too many diaries." at a certain point some other popular blog is going to "go scoop" and the system will balance itself out. until such time (as i said in my diary yesterday) we should just encourage more diary elevations from "diary oblivion" as opposed to quote response posts.

  additionally, though not as important because sites can change, dkos is (and in my opinion should be) a primarily domestic site, having an int'l section on it would clutter the place up.

  creating an entirely separate dkos affiliated int'l page would be a laborious task, but it'd be interesting to see how it'd take shape.

  by Addison on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:30:22 PM PDT

  •  exclusively domestic focus? no

    Addison, you wrote that

    dkos is (and in my opinion should be) a primarily domestic site, having an int'l section on it would clutter the place up.

    I guess I might feel OK about this if dKos's home base were some small or medium-sized country with only modest impact on the rest of the world. But like it or not, the U.S. is the world's only superpower, and everything our government does affects everyone else, the world round. So it's pretty hard to argue, in those circumstances, for an exclusively domestic focus when the domestic and the international are so interdependent. IMHO.

    I know you said "primarily", not "exclusively"... but the gist of your comment sounds like you meant "exclusively". Did you? If not, how much international stuff would you include? And then, how do you ensure it isn't lost in the domestic tide?

    And now, we're back where I started.

    by d52boy on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 08:00:18 PM PDT

•  Agree

  I proposed something like this before the election.  It could take a form as simple as categorizing diaries for search and display purposes.  Specifically, users could choose what categories they want to see (part of user preferences), and the categories could even be color coded.

  by Jonathan on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:36:29 PM PDT

•  asdf

  I agree

  by FLS on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:36:47 PM PDT

•  Pimp-age

  Check out the BooMan Tribune, a Scoop blog run by Daily Kos user BooMan 23. Oddly enough, it has exactly what you're suggesting - when you register, you state your location (essentially as "US" or "World"), and it has a functioning "Recommended Diaries List", as well as a "Reccomended World Diaries List."

  Frontpagers are BooMan23, susanhu, pastordan, as well as a few more (Maryscott maybe?), and regualr posts from notables such as Carnacki, Jerome a Paris, and kid oakland.

  Give'r a shot - it's got some good stuff. (I'm not related to the BMT in any way - I just think it's a neat idea).

  by Scipio on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:40:24 PM PDT

  •  Thanks

    Bookmarked it. Looks good.

    Is this the WaPo to Kos's NYT? Or something like that?

    Is that what this blogging thing is headed for?

    by d52boy on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 09:10:15 PM PDT

•  I think that the answer

  is going to be some combination of:

  1. Patience - there are a LOT of people who post here, and many are extremely good writers, researchers, thinkers...just read it.

  2. Editorial mandates from the front-pagers - more diary elevations, and ELIMINATION of diaries that are elevated from the Recommended list.

  3. Sub-editors - I think the front-pagers should consider giving "minor deity" powers to some kossacks (maybe have a few rounds of voting?) to elevate diaries that are not being read, are posted late at night, or are posted during news firestorms.

  4. Sections - I can imagine sections being either extremely successful or extremely bad. I think one possibility would have topic-based sections, but I think it would serve to fragment the already scattered attention and focus in the community. However, if there were a "recommended" section, as there already is, plus a "minor deity choice" section, plus front-pager elevations...we may just be able to get all the great diaries the attention they deserve.

  5. Finally, I think it would be interesting to explore having some volunteers or community choices to actually comb through the diaries and choose older diaries that should be revisited, and give those volunteers the power to place great, older diaries into yet another "minor deity choice" section for "oldies but goodies"....

  What do you think?

  by RedDan on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:41:44 PM PDT

•  Re:

  Recommended because it's worth getting some broader discussion on this issue, and because it doesn't mention Terri Schiavo.

  by Steve M on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:42:44 PM PDT

•  not a big problem

  I used to live in Europe.  If you post your diary during the European diary morning hours, you have a fair shot at making the recommend list, since during the low-traffic Euro-morning hours, your diary sits near the most recent diaries for a long time.

  When the Yanks wake up they typically read a few diaries before they start posting them, so  chances are good that plenty of readers will consider whether or not your post is worthy of recommendation.

  Bottom line:  I don't think sections are needed.  We live in an international world, and dKos should be open any international with an interest in American politics.   Non-Americans aren't at a disadvantage at all when it comes to diary posting.  Rather, they have an advantage:  the timing is good and they have access to different sources for news and commentary.  

  by YankInUK on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:44:35 PM PDT

•  your diary knocked my diary off the front page...

  seriously though, if you want to look for a diary, use this page.

  by skippy on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:50:05 PM PDT

  •  LOL!

    by d52boy on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 09:02:37 PM PDT

•  Actually, another "great idea" would be

  to have everything on the site in 2-point type...then it would all fit on the front page!!!

  by RedDan on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:52:26 PM PDT

•  real problem, not so sure about your solution

  There is a lot of reading material available through the diaries.  They don't last long enough on the front page.  Some people call this "the memory hole", others the "diaries fly by" problem.  Unless you rivet your eyes on Daily Kos 24 x 7, some good diaries that you are interested in will escape your attention.  

  So, yes, it's a problem!  FYI, diaries are open for recommendation for 24 hours, but typically would remain visible for an hour, or perhaps at most two, in the default length Recent Diaries box, during the day.

  There are some simpler things to do to make the situation better.  Increase the length of the recent diaries box to 50 diaries.  If that isn't enough consider going to the Diary page and set the number of diaries to display to a larger number, like 100 diaries.

  You might want to take a look at my diaries fpr the lists I generate daily and weekly that give the most recommended diaries over the previous day or week.  The whole point of doing those lists is to help keep in view diaries that would otherwise disappear, by taking advantage of the fact that although you can't always be here, someone else can.

  I am not too keen on sections, because everyone has their own idea of what the sections should be, and which items should be in which sections, so that the overall effect can be the exact opposite of what was intended - more people end up missing a diary than finding it.  
  

  by jotter on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:57:04 PM PDT

  •  The answer to your last point would be tags

    In answer to your last point, about how diaries would be categorized, couldn't we use tags? Like how Flickr does, you add tags of your own and the diary would get categorized by whatever tags you gave it.  

    A word after a word after a word is power. -- Margaret Atwood

    by tmo on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:57:36 PM PDT

    •  I hear that is under discussion

      But haven't heard any word lately.  There was discussion of this around the announcement of the Yearly Kos convention.

      Again, this is fine with me as long as it doesn't displace existing UI elements.

      You might want to consider that if tags are a success people can and will go to stories they want to see and miss those they don't care about.  This means the site as a whole is less unified.  There is probably no center to flickr - it's much more about individuals and cliques.

      by jotter on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 08:46:52 AM PDT

•  Random selection list?

  I would propose to put the list "Random selection". More presicely, that shouldn't be a completely random selection, but the occurence probabilities should be weighted according to the following factors:
  

  1. The number of recomendations.
     
  2. How old is the diary, or how long ago does it left the "Recent Diaries" list? The weight/time graph may be of the bell shape, with the maximum at "12 hours old", say.
     
  3. Is the diary present in the "Recommended" or "Recent Diaries" lists? If so, its weight might be temporarily put to zero.

  The random list might be different for each time the Kos page is (re)loaded, and also different for each user. In this way, diaries will have better visibility for longer time, especially better diaries. Besides, this system would give a reason  to recommend a diary you like even if that diary would hardly make the "Recommended" list.

  by ray z on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:02:43 PM PDT

•  I was thinking the same thing...

  and was thinking of writing about this. I'm a newspaper designer, and I was thinking the front page of DKos needs a sense of hierachy.

  Part of me wishes the front looked more like a front page of a website for a daily newspaper as opposed to a blog.I think making the front page look less like a blog will help with new readers.

  Some people don't get the blog thing (as visual thing), but they do understand the visual language of a newspaper. And if that is a way to pull new people in, I'm all for it. And if it is a way to make things easier to say find articles by Bondada, I'm definately for it.
  

  by friday durdikova on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:05:34 PM PDT

  •  There's already a way

    to find diaries by a specific user. When reading a diary by a writer you admire, right under his/her username, you will see a link labeled [Subscribe]. Click that, and the writer will be added to your hotlist. Checking the hotlist will then tell you if that writer has submitted a new diary.

    For example, I am currently Subscribed to four writers: advisorjim, bellatrys, Devilstower, and Our Man in Redmond. I bookmarked My Hotlist in my browser, so it's quite easy to check back from time to time.

    by Canadian Reader on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:54:45 PM PDT

•  categorization

  hello everyone,

  dKos already has a mechanism for categorizing diaries, you can read all about it in the dKosopedia.

  I don't know how active all the categories are, but CategoryEnergy is used all the time.

  by corncam on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:16:03 PM PDT

  •  those are just categories for comments

    And boy are the limited. I'd like to be able to search and find diaries on labor, unions, and privatization.

    Not on the list - not even close.

    by shirah on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:20:30 PM PDT

•  a better search function would help

  Either a kwic search function - or a self selected list of categories so a diarist could pick 1 or 2 cateogires. Those interested could then pull up a list based on those categories.

  by shirah on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:17:23 PM PDT

•  Perhaps

  Someone would volunteer to do a daily index.

  by phillies on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:19:00 PM PDT

•  Expanding Horizons

  partly because I can envision this service expanding participation and readership significantly.

  [Caveat: I have no clue about limits of the technology.]

  A sentiment I've rarely seen expressed here (or on the DFA blog when I was there) was that our overarching interest is an entire nation. By remaining small and too focused on a community of acquaintences, it's almost more of a fan club than an instrument of change (much less a movement).

  The staff could expand to include sectional front-page writers and also sectional guests. I think this also opens the opportunity to invite some marginalized populations into political discussions and activities that have always excluded them because of geography and economics. Blacks, Hispanics and Natives come to mind.

  For those who haven't noticed yet, the subject of this post has gone from a blog to a movement to a political party, without even mentioning revolution.

  by Gooserock on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 07:02:41 PM PDT

•  ABSOLUTELY!

  I think it is time DK spent some time on redesigning the site. It has not scaled up in terms of the design. At all.

  by liza on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 08:29:43 PM PDT

•  Lots of good suggestions here

  Thanks to one and all. I do think that something needs to be done, and hopefully the ideas generated here will help Kos and his web designers devise a new look that can handle the increased numbers and more international readership.

  Bravo!

  by d52boy on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 09:07:17 PM PDT

  •  working on it

    Can you drop me a line?

    by Jerome a Paris on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 08:04:03 AM PDT