Daily Kos

Filibuster fails on Bankruptcy bill

Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:20:58 PM PDT

The cloture vote was terrible.  It was 69-31 to invoke cloture.  This means that only 30 Democrats and Jim Jeffords did the right thing.
This is a vote that Democrats could have used to bash Republicans over the head with, but once again they have been bought by corporate interests.  

There were more but I counted these Dems as voting to stop the filibuster.  

Lieberman
Biden
Carper
Nelson of Neb.
Landrieu
Salazar?????
Conrad

but there were others.

I think this is a bill if we had more time, if we had mobilized sooner; we could have won this time with a filibuster.

The Bankruptcy Bill Extra hosted by TPM was a great idea.  We should, however, have done this sooner  - with a campaign of letters, faxes and phone calls.  there should have been some grassroot lobbyists visiting those weak and foolish Dems in their Washington offices as well as their home districts during the recess.

And I do not mean to criticize Elizabeth Warren unduly, after all, she is a lawyer, not a political strategist. Certainly not one who has ever run a campaign like this before.  We needed a war room and concerted, targeted lists of people to call.  I called every wavering Sen.  I got through to their offices too easily; I should have had difficulty.  The phones should have been ringing off the hooks.

The other way we on the left have fallen short is not having organizations and think tanks that could come up with stories to tell about sympathetic people who had to declare bankruptcy.
These orgs. could get stories written and filmed and peddled to all the various media, from TV, newspapers, radio, etc.

The right has been doing this for years....Coming up with bad ideas and creating mawkish, moralistic stories ---half of which are rarely true. But in this are real and true heart rending stories of good people bought low by fate, circumstance and the vagaries of global capitalism. Narratives change people's minds.  A sad and compelling story is often how people respond to issues and principles, we need to personalize their travails.  We needed stories that speak to people's lives so they understand whom this hurts.

We have lost a valuable principle, and we have lost an issue that Dems could hang around the Republican's necks.

Next time we need to mobilize sooner, and not just the blogosphere.  Other parts of the partyh have to help out.  That is how we win and save America.
[editor's note, by debcoop] another horrible outcome. The Rethugs continue on their successful war to make Americans more insecure and have to live their lives with an increasingly higher chance of the danger of falling through the cracks into poverty. ( I posted this below as well) Link: http://maxspeak.org/mt/archives/001205.html _Meanwhile Max Sawicky has a question that brings it all together:_ _In a different vein, a good question is whether the private accounts and annuities under Bush's excellent Social Security privatization plan would be vulnerable to attachment by creditors, thereby opening up a new source of equity to the credit card industry, after they have sucked out all your blood._ _Presumably, the answer is "yes." These would be real assets, after all, your very own private personal account. So if you should happen to fall ill and lack adequate health insurance you could easily wind up needing to sign your entire account over to your credit card company. Meanwhile, your Social Security benefits will be cut and you'll have to accept the special private accounts offset cut. This is by no means a wildly unlikely scenario; over two million people go bankrupt in each year right now, almost one percent of the population._ -Matthew Yglesias_

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  •  i want names, all of them (3.85 / 7)

    Let's get the full list of names out here.

    If you are interested in the politics of Proviso Township in Cook County, Illinois, visit Proviso Probe.

    by Carl Nyberg on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:07:17 PM PDT

    •  names will be here (none / 0)


      as soon as they are available:

      http://tinyurl.com/67hcy

      -L.

      éí 'aaníígÓÓ 'áhoot'é

      by Librarian on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:10:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  names are not enough (4.00 / 2)

        it's fine that we get the names, but it's not enough that we fume over this.

        the point of the diary that sticks to me is that we weren't prepared for this.

        AGAIN, IMHO.

        we weren't prepared for 2004 & started late.

        we weren't prepared for Delay & started late.

        we weren't prepared for this bill & got going too late.

        if there is a strength to grass-roots work it is that it has so many people.

        & that is our weakness. with so many people, it takes time to move all these people.  there is alot of inertia involved.

        we have to have some mechanism to move people & to bring about quick & coordinated action.

        i'm not berating us or any progressives.  these are growing pains that we are experiencing (which proves that we are in fact growing), but at some point we have to mature up & get the infrastructure up to handle issues like this in the future.

        i really think a state by state coordination (AMONG OTHER THINGS) would help.  e.g., Texas KOS.  Start one for your state.

        Other ideas are welcome

        •  Cohesive business and marketing plans (none / 1)

          In business when you are "at war" with a competitor, you analyze the comparative strengths and weaknesses, understand why your product/service is better for the customer, then build a team and create a business plan and a marketing plan to generate customer desire and demand for your product/service.

          I've been thinking this for a year now: we are very grassroots and not particularly organized, and we didn't have a real plan for creating "pull" in the market; for getting our message out there. We worked a lot on defining the message in these diaries and it was great work. We all got educated and we did a lot of work in the real world from our new knowledge.

          But in order to counter a finely tuned marketing machine like the GOP, we will have to create a coherent organization speaking and publishing coordinated messages.

          In other words, if 49% of America spoke with a single set of progressive, clear messages, the country would change.

          This is, of course, the key to media coverage as well. Any defined market with a clear and documented response to news and entertainment will be seen as a ratings target, and will be addressed. If we had a cohesive plan and message we might find more media response to our needs.

          I see this all very much in progress, as the election of Dean shows, and the recent power of the Blogsphere to open--and keep open--GannonGate. I think we are getting "there". I'd like it to have more impact but I'm excited that it's happening at all.

          Looking at the internal conflicts between the traditional Democratic Party organization and supporters, the DLC people, the hard-left, and the reality-based progressive bloggers, I wonder if this organizing and planning can be done...and I wonder if we-all could then stay on message.

          I remember in 1972 when McGovern won the nomination, the Humphrey people walked away. Much of the traditional Democratic Party just sat out the election cycle. I was involved in LA County and couldn't believe how many Democratic doors were shut in our faces when it came time to work the election. Labor, old school Democratic committee members, organizers; they just turned away. We can't afford traditional infighting now. We have to find that our common cause is more important than our specific agendas.

          Any effort to bring all Democrats and progressives to a single table to create and execute a strong multi-year business and marketing plan is fraught with challenges. Reality is that all of us will have to compromise to some extent, then get behind the message and speak with one voice. This takes strength, insight, and courage.

          We do indeed live in interesting times!

        •  The Mother of All Issues is Coming (4.00 / 2)

          It is the extension of the Bush tax cuts.  This is what everything else hinges on.  The Bush tax cuts have eaten the Social Security surplus and threaten to eat everything else up if they are extended.  Making huge annual deficits as far as the eye can see makes for a huge accumulated debt and will seriously restrict choices in teh future, because we will no longer be able to borrow when we need to (such as for the SS bonds in the trust Fund).

          The tax measures will be folded into the Budget Reconciliation Bill that will originate in the House AND WILL NOT BE SUBJECT TO A FILIBUSTER IN THE SENATE.  

          Right now there are several Repubs who are nervous about the growing debt load. they need to be shored us, as do the Dems.  The most important things are to:

          Most important, urge Congress to honestly state the implications of tax and budget cuts, and require an offsetting tax increase ("loophole closing" is their euphemism) for every new or extended tax cut.  This is what is known as the "PAYGO" rule, for Pay-as-you-go, that was in effect when Clinton was President.  The Repubs only want the rule to apply to budget increases, so that tax cuts don't have to be offset and approved by a supermajority.  Also to include the War(s) in the budget.

          On taxes, urge that they:

          1. Do not extend the cuts on the top two brackets.  These expire in 2008, so there is no need to extend now.

          2.  Do not extend the reduction in the tax rate for capital gains and dividends.  These also do not expire until 2008.

          3. Do not extend repeal of the estate tax.  This does not kick in until 2009, and does not expire until 2010.  No need to deal with it now.

          4.  Keep the 10% bracket and the child tax credit, as well as the earned income credit.

          This fight is really the pivot on which everything will be decided, as it will determine how much money is available and who will pay.  It will also determine what kind of flexibility there will be in the future.

          "Do not forget that every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure." ---The White Rose, 1942

          by Mimikatz on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:48:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Names and contact here (none / 0)

        Americans are apt to be unduly interested in discovering what average opinion believes average opinion to be. (J.M. Keynes)

        by davinic on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:24:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The Dems who voted for cloture (4.00 / 2)

        Biden (D-DE)
        Byrd (D-WV)
        Carper (D-DE)
        Conrad (D-ND)
        Johnson (D-SD)
        Kohl (D-WI)
        Landrieu (D-LA)
        Lieberman (D-CT)
        Lincoln (D-AR)
        Nelson (D-FL)
        Nelson (D-NE)
        Pryor (D-AR)
        Salazar (D-CO)
        Stabenow (D-MI)
    •  Fucking traitors (none / 0)

      What the hell does someone have to do to get kicked out of the Democratic party??  How would the repug party react if their folks gaily voted against party interests more than once?  Hell, how would they react if they voted against party interests in ONE important vote?

      A filibuster is the minority's only weapon.  Having it fail even once weakens that already-vulnerable weapon.  These bastards (Landrieu included, if she's on the list) have just fucked us.  What the HELL are we going to do about this?

      Babe, you're just a wave, you're not the water. --Jimmie Dale Gilmore

      by rocketito on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:14:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Durbin amendment and 'support our troops' (none / 0)

        How would the repug party react if their folks gaily voted against party interests more than once?  Hell, how would they react if they voted against party interests in ONE important vote?

        They did; they voted against the Durbin Amendment which would have exempted military personnel from this horrific bill. Not to mention many of them have abandoned their platform of 'compassionate conservatism'.

        And they say 'support our troops'.

        Even when InstaPundit is publically weary of a Senate bill being pushed by Republicans, its not good.

        I lost my faith in nihilism

        by PanzerMensch on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:27:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Have there been any response or consequences? (none / 0)

          n/t

          Babe, you're just a wave, you're not the water. --Jimmie Dale Gilmore

          by rocketito on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:36:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Plastic Liddy (none / 0)

          Ol' Plastic Liddy and her "I support our military" speech today got a nice little kick in the teeth by Dick Durban.

          North Carlina is a huge military state, and in the top three states in the country to lose jobs to China.  Economically pretty bad in many areas.  One the other hand, Liddy is a ho to the financial services, Wachovia in particular.  I hope my fellow North Carolinias have had enough of her NAFTA loving, military screwing, debt mounting ways.

          And if you bank at Wachovia, you may want to find another place to put your money.

          •  something to remember next election (none / 0)

            Ol' Plastic Liddy and her "I support our military" speech today got a nice little kick in the teeth by Dick Durban.

            That'll be something to hammer her with when re-election rolls around.

            And if you bank at Wachovia, you may want to find another place to put your money.

            I've already switched banks 2 or 3 times for one reason or another...

            I lost my faith in nihilism

            by PanzerMensch on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:55:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not until 08 (none / 0)

              Woe to all North Carolinians with Plastic Liddy and Dirty Burr, both of whom never met a corporate lobbyist they didn't like.  Quite a terrible time to have Dirty Burr take John Edwards seat.

              I switched from Wachovia right after the election.  It turned my stomach to go in there knowing that they're pushing offshoring, funding Liddy and the entire Bush agenda.

              •  it pissed me off to no end (none / 0)

                that Erskine Bowles was put up again for the Senate seat here after losing once already to Ms. Banana

                Also that JE forfeit his seat for the presidential run that was 4 years to early to everyone but him...

                We are royally screwed down here as far as having anyone that will listen to us in the Senate.

                I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take this anymore!

                by MarkinNC on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 03:13:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You and me both brother (none / 0)

                  If ever there was a Congress that needed John Edwards, this one is it.  I really hated the fact that he hopped onto the national stage before finishing his Senate work.  I really, really hated it when I found out what Kerry had left in his campaign chest when Bowles could have used the extra cash.  

                  Both moves were unwise for the party and damn unhealthy for North Carolinians.

    •  Dems voting Aye. (4.00 / 3)

      Lieberman, Nelson and Nelson, Biden, Carper, Stabenow, Salazar, Kohl, Lincoln, Pryor, Landrieu, Byrd, Conrad, Johnson
      •  Already hailing "bipartisan" support (none / 1)

        Sons of bitches!

        Call your Senators and ask why they support bankruptcy privledges for violent domestic terrorists but not for the military men and women fighting terrorism abroad.

        Shame, shame, shame on them!  

      •  Crap (none / 0)

        I'm sorry to see Stabenow voted yea. Thank god Levin didn't; at least half of the MI senators got it right. I wonder what on earth possessed Stabenow?
        •  Stabenow (none / 0)

          heard from me in no uncertain terms as soon as I got confirmation she'd voted for cloture. I'm disgusted about it.
        •  Republican Moral Bankruptcy Act of 2005 (none / 0)

          Must add that I've been lobbying Levin and Stabenow against this bill for weeks now. And my keyboard was smoking this morning.

          Now the question is what do we do next? Go on with life as usual and keep using our credit cards every day or take some other action.

          • Cut our cards up and send them back to the issuer?

          • Get our card balances paid off and use the cards purely for convenience, paying in full every month? (The last I knew, credit card companies hate this. They call convenience users "deadbeats" because they don't make money from both sides of the transaction).

          *Arrange with local merchants who know us to pay by check rather than card. (They'd probably prefer it anyway.)

          Other ideas?

          •  I'm paying mine as fast as I can (none / 1)

            After that, either cutting them up or paying in full every month. I don't want these people to make any more money off of me.
            •  Bush's New War is not Iran but the Working Class (none / 0)

              I'm going to pay off mine as soon as I can. The Rethugs and Bushco hate the working class. The Bankruptcy bill is only another nail in the coffin of the working class: tax cuts, overtime bill, no float on checks, I could go on. The Ownership Society Bushco is constructing is going to be one where the only thing common folk will own will be debt. The whole slant of these people is to reward the already got mine . We should mobilise now against the consumption tax, which is a regressive tax as well as making Bush's tax cuts permanent. They are hand in hand.

              C'est la guerre

          •  bad (none / 0)

            I think it's bad to never run a balance.  I had a ton of credit card debt a few years back and paid it all off, and swore off credit cards.  Used a debit card ever since.  My credit rating was in the 790-800 range.

            Then I applied for a mortgage.  It was all find until the last two weeks, where the credit ratings started reporting "no score" because I hadn't had enough recent credit activity.

            Basically, I got penalized for being a responsible consumer.  The mortgage almost completely fell through, and it was my first home.  We ended up getting it cleared up, but I had to pay a higher interest rate on my mortgage.

            I don't think it was just that I wasn't using credit cards.  I think you actually have to carry a balance.  You play a timing game.  You can't use a credit card and then pay it off the next day - you have to basically wait a month.  If you time it perfectly you might avoid finance charges, but I doubt it.

            •  Better to establish and maintain your credit (none / 1)

              by taking out small bank loans and repaying them regularly than by using credit cards, I think. Maybe you could set up a personal line of credit. I know cards are convenient, but their costs are heavy. I've used credit cards for many, many years; have paid them off every month; and have never paid a dime of interest to the credit card company. Just pay the full bill every month about seven days before the due date.
            •  that's the Trap (none / 0)

              they say they want you to be responsible, but then you can't get credit if you are. When I  had a good job $5,000 in the bank and no bills and all I could qualify for was a $500 limit bank card, and since I paid it every month, I never qualified for a credit increase.

              When I left my job to go to law school I had no income and started carrying a balance and suddenly they replaced that card with one with a $25,000 limit and someone else sent me a $10,000 card.   Due to a catastrophic illness on my GF's part (who was living with me at the time ) neither of us were able to work and those balances got higher, Leading to MORE unsolicted credit cards coming in the mail;  they couldn't give them to me fast enough.

              The dirty secret is Credit Card Companies HATE responsible consumers who pay their balances off every month.   They've even tried to add extra fees on  to those  who do because they call them "dead headers" since they generate no profit for the CC company

              Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

              by Magorn on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:25:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, despite the fact (none / 0)

                that I pay off my credit card bills every month, the credit card companies still keep increasing my credit limit. Go figure. Anyway, when I was starting out, I established credit with by setting up a personal line of credit at my credit union, then with a car loan, and so on. I didn't base it on credit cards.
              •  I`m doing my best to lose them money (none / 0)

                We spend 5 8 g's a month, and most of it goes on the card.  I pay in full, and take the three to four weeks free loan.  To hell with them!
                •  That's the Way to do it (none / 0)

                  and whenever possible Charge big purchases and glom up as many reward points as possible.  Then pay Cash at the end of the month.  My incredibly frugal parents (never so much as bought a car on credit)  used to have a lot of fun charging things like college tuitions for the six of us, and then paying cash at the end of the month and flying somewhere nice with the reward points....drove the credit people crazy.

                  Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

                  by Magorn on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:11:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  the problem is (none / 0)

              credit scoring systems are not transparent.  So people can only guess at how they might raise their score.  The FTC website has some general information on credit scoring here.

              One paragraph is emphasized: "To improve your credit score under most models, concentrate on paying your bills on time, paying down outstanding balances, and not taking on new debt. It's likely to take some time to improve your score significantly."

              I'm not sure you're right about having to carry a balance.  In general, increasing your debt load will lower your score.

            •  similar (none / 0)

              I used to be able to pay off fairly high balances so I ran them, then went back to school and afterwards couldn't find steady work for three years - so I'm in debt up to my eyeballs and the credit card companies harrass me constantly. Not only do they charge late fees, higher interest rates, and over limit fees which I wouldn't have without the late fees & higher interest rates, they verbally abuse me on the phone. I don't know if I will ever be able to pay these people. So my advice is screw them, don't run a debt, because you never know when your circumstances will change.
              •  Have you talked to (none / 0)

                one of those non-profit credit counseling outfits? They might be able to get the card companies off your back and work out a reasonable payment schedule for you. Make sure you check around and get a legitimate credit counseling organization though.
                •  good point (none / 0)

                  I tried them before when I was still unemployed and they said they couldn't help me, but now I'm working again.
                •  CCCS - DON'T DO IT (none / 0)

                  I cannot stress this enough. As someone who formerly worked for a Collection agency, Consumer Credit Counseling Services are a stain on your credit worse than Bankruptcy. While they tout that they are not for profit they're still pulling in a hefty income.

                  What most people do not relize is that these people have no legal standing to negotiate your debts for you, they're not doing anything that you couldn't do for yourself. Another thing to keep in mind is that many of these 'credit counseling' agencies are owned by the major credit providers.

                  It is just one more way for them to eek out every last time from you they can, and screw your credit for many many years to come in the process.

                  John Edwards in 08. Accept no substitutes!

                  by Disillusioned on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:43:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Try (none / 0)

                moneymanagement.org

                How can we get over it when people died for the right to vote? -- John Lewis

                by furryjester on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:18:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I was in the Same boat- things are better now (none / 1)

                (see above) and it was BAD for me, but there really was nothing I could do since I was living off student loans and neither me or my Fiancée could work (she was sick, I was in Clinic) and she had a six year old son to raise.  I'd been juggling the cards before then paying about double the minimum payment but never really getting anywhere.   When that happened I went from juggling to crashing.  For about six months they called constantly and it made me feel sick every time they did.  I seriously contemplated a Ch. 7 (still am sort of)especially since I could do the paperwork all myself (you can too they aren't especially hard to fill out, and most jurisdictions have the forms online).  Well after six months they simply stopped calling, basically just went away.  The one with  the smallest balance got a judgment in a state I no longer live in, but that's it.  I pulled my credit report because my current job has a security clearance requirement (for a banking job ironically enough)  and was amazed to find that most of those companies had simply charged off the balances internally and closed the accounts.   In 5 or so years I'm told they'll drop off the report never to be heard from again.

                Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

                by Magorn on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:20:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Borrow for something specific (none / 0)

              Like a car, or maybe furniture, and pay it back as soon as possible. That will establish credit.

              Pay your credit card when you get the bill, by the due date.  That way you avoid any finance charges.  The problem with credit cards is that the minute you don't pay off in full by the due date, every single new charge, as well as all your old charges, are subject to the interest rates, which may be as high as 18% or maybe even more.  From that point on, you start to accumulate late and finance charges that can eventually be more than the goods you have charged. This is a trap.  Don't run a balance, and above all, don't just pay the minimum.

              The same is true of banks.  They used to cover the occasional overdraft as a courtesy.  Not any more.  They charge you $10 for an overdraft, then start charging $5 a day or something like that.  They can just take your money now.  You have to be VERY careful to watch your balance.  Cash advances on a credit card are also a scam, as there are very high charges.

              "Do not forget that every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure." ---The White Rose, 1942

              by Mimikatz on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:59:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I LIVE... (none / 0)

            to do this: "Get our card balances paid off and use the cards purely for convenience, paying in full every month? (The last I knew, credit card companies hate this. They call convenience users "deadbeats" because they don't make money from both sides of the transaction)."

            I have a card that I carried thousands on at 6.9 for years...then got a letter stating that they were giving me the opportunity to pay if off in one month or keep it open and go to 29%!  I paid it off, called them and told them that in return for their appreciation of my perfect payment history I intended to use their card to my maximum benefit monthly (reaping a nice 5% rebate all the time) and paying it off monthly specifically so that I, not they, would benefit - and I insisited my comment be reported to a supervisor.

            Gawd that was fun...

        •  It's crazy (none / 0)

          You never have to worry about Levin, but Stabenow...  After this, I don't know if I have the energy to volunteer for her reelection campaign in 2006.  She has been out-in-front on Social Security, but I don't understand her motivation here.
        •  Well, Apparently Feinstein Heard from Us (none / 0)

          Cause she was acting like she was going to vote "aye".

          That is, until we flooded her voicemail and email both here in California and Washington, DC.  We also told her that her seat was on the line in '06 - she heard us!

          I say a "hit list" and state-to-state coordination is in order! I'm coordinating a Meet-Up group in my county - we're meeting tonight and I will be sure to present this.

          I also hope Reid is going to kick ass and take names, especially for the fools who voted for this crappy bill and are up for re-election in '06!

          "Washington, DC: Where Corrupt Officials are discovered daily."

          by The Truth on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:02:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Use This (none / 0)

      Americans are apt to be unduly interested in discovering what average opinion believes average opinion to be. (J.M. Keynes)

      by davinic on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:15:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Another horrible outcome (4.00 / 4)

      This is via Matt Yglesias at TAPPED.

      Another unforeseen awful outcome with the confluence of 2 vicious Rethug bills.

      Another battle in the extreme right wing campaign to take risk and privatize it so that the lives of all Americans become ever more uncertain and dangerous as the Rethugs continue in their endless war to destroy the legacy of FDR and even the turn of the century Progressive era.

      Link:

      http://maxspeak.org/mt/archives/001205.ht

      Meanwhile Max Sawicky has a question that brings it all together:
      In a different vein, a good question is whether the private accounts and annuities under Bush's excellent Social Security privatization plan would be vulnerable to attachment by creditors, thereby opening up a new source of equity to the credit card industry, after they have sucked out all your blood.
      Presumably, the answer is "yes." These would be real assets, after all, your very own private personal account. So if you should happen to fall ill and lack adequate health insurance you could easily wind up needing to sign your entire account over to your credit card company. Meanwhile, your Social Security benefits will be cut and you'll have to accept the special private accounts offset cut. This is by no means a wildly unlikely scenario; over two million people go bankrupt in each year right now, almost one percent of the population.
      --Matthew Yglesias

      ml

      •  SS accounts will be stolen by MBNA (none / 0)

        This is the likely outcome of these two actions, thanks for linking them together.  That's one more MAJOR downside to the Bush Piratization plan to ruin Social Security, your retirement funds will no longer be shielded from unsecured creditors!

        MBNA and the rest are modern day pirates, they pulled out of Maryland because we would ONLY let them charge 18% interest when they wanted 24% or more to suck the lifeblood out of suckers who run a balance on their credit cards.  This is the absolute worse thing in the world to do, but of course it might be necessary to feed yourself or pay medical bills since the Bushies have made sure that we don't have Medicare for All.  That would make too much sense, and would not help the millionaires, so is not part of the Bush plan.

      •  ask Bush (none / 0)

        Maybe some enterprising journalist will ask President Bush about this point. Does the government still allow "real" journalists to question the President?

        If you are interested in the politics of Proviso Township in Cook County, Illinois, visit Proviso Probe.

        by Carl Nyberg on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 02:26:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Right there with ya (none / 0)

    It's a damn dirty shame.
  •  Look on the bright side (none / 1)

    There are few dems we're protecting in the next election. So we can still use this to vilify the Dickensian GOP. And heck, if we decide to try to get rid of Joementum, then a vote for debtor's prisons might come in handy. Do you think Paul Newman would vote for debtors prisons?

    </eternal optimist>

    This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

    by emptywheel on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:08:36 PM PDT

    •  I did a diary on Debtor's Prisons (none / 0)

      on Sunday

      http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/6/16951/22623

      I think I would prefer it over indentured servitude. Only cuz Im lazy.

      Seriously, maybe a mock-serious bid for debtors prisons is in order to make people notice what the fuck is happening here. Picture it...a rally of hundreds wearing Dickensian rags with teeth blacked out, picketing for debtors prisons as an alternative to homelessness in your neighborhood park. It would be the opposite of the Bush Billionaires, but to the same end.

      It's a neighborly day in this beautywood. Relentless!

      by ablington on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:18:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no (none / 0)

        They'd just turn the prisoners into factory workers with less pay than they get now.
      •  Have you noticed the deafening silence (none / 0)

        On the MSM about the bankruptcy bill? Don't tell them they're going to go to jail because they bought just one too many DVDs, they must think. Out of fear that the great consumers of the US will rise up in support of their right to DVDs followed by bankruptcy.

        Yeah, I think the debtor's prison meme is the way to go. "So Sen. Santorum, you not only want restaurant servers to work for free, but you want to send them to debtors prison when, as a result they can't pay their bills. And why should the people of Virginia (oh wait--you live in PA, you say?) re-elect you???

        This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

        by emptywheel on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:40:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Seriously. (none / 0)

          What is gonna happen to the people who CANNOT pay their creditors? I just want someone to answer that question.

          IN the scenario of medical debt/job loss/credit card or home foreclosure, what happens then? Homelessness, jail, moving back in with mom and dad in Boca Raton?

          It's a neighborly day in this beautywood. Relentless!

          by ablington on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:48:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You know (4.00 / 2)

            Recently-bankrupted cancer patients make great slave labor, I hear. I mean, if you don't mind chemo vomit all over your newly manufactured tennis shows and if you don't mind people passing out and getting stuck in the machinery.

            And recently-bankrupted tuberculosis sufferers, they're just the folks you want flipping your burgers in McD's. That way, you'll have more recently bankrupted tuberculosis sufferers and more cheap labor and more ...

            Well, you know what I mean.

            This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

            by emptywheel on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 01:03:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Pushing people to the wall financially (none / 0)

            isn't really the smartest thing is a society that is as status conscious, consumer oriented and as violent and as gun-ridden as this one.

            In the Great Depression people were ashamed to lose everything.  Stockbrokers jumped out of windows on Wall Street.  My mother's neighbor shot himself and his wife.  My grandfather was a small-town banker in Missouri and he shot himself when his bank failed, because he couldn't face the townspeople.  He had also been generous, lending to farmers who were desperate, but the gov't only bailed out the big banks.

            But people aren't like that now.  They strike out at someone else.  Probably at the poor branch manager who is just getting by himself, but expect increased violence, both domestic and not, from this one.

            "Do not forget that every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure." ---The White Rose, 1942

            by Mimikatz on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 03:13:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Why the Silence? (none / 0)

          Who pays for commercials?  Middle class / Working class citizens?  Or MBNA?  So then who would media corporations want to please?

          Silence is golden, right?

        •  well...Martha Stewart went to jail...... (none / 0)

          and she lost 20 lbs and got a nice poncho from her roommate! Prison's not so bad!

          </snark>

    •  Is debtor's prison in our future (none / 0)

      or is the bankruptcy bill part of a Bush economic strategy to so impoverish ordinary Americans that they have no choice but to go into the military and fight his trumped up wars?

      What will people do who are backed into a financial corner by catastrophic illness or job loss and no longer have the option of bankruptcy protection that will allow them to get back on their feet? Just curl up and die?

      Bush and the Repugs need an immediate visit from Scrooge's three ghosts!

  •  Anybody get anything from SDCC? (none / 0)

  •  I love Senator Durbin (none / 1)

    But he needs to whip a little harder. The Republicans shot down every doemocratic amendment. I don't understand why some members in our party don't have the spine to stand up for what's right.
  •  I don't see Brigham's diary (4.00 / 3)

    Did he post the Lieberman primary diary here?

    I'd love to run an opponent against every single one of them, but that's not practical. Lieberman is the biggest offender and he needs to be taken down.

    Our tent has gotten too large. It's time to separate the wheat from the cow droppings.

    Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

    by JollyBuddah on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:13:22 PM PDT

  •  Where were the lawyers? (none / 0)

    Concerning this bill and the recent one about class action suits, I keep wondering where the lawyers are in all this?

    Why isn't the lawyers' lobby as competent as other groups at getting their message out?  If anyone understands the importance of bringing their case to people in easy-to-understand terms and properly framed, it should be the trial lawyers.  I just don't get why they aren't running ads 24-7 pointing out that the courtroom is the one and only place that the common person has a chance to be on an even playing field.  That taking away our rights to sue for negligence/declare bankruptcy, etc. is removing the last protection we have from complete corporatization.

    Does anyone have any idea why the trial lawyer lobby isn't more effective?

    •  hmm. (none / 0)

      Every time the law changes, more people need lawyers to advise them as to what to do?
    •  Notoriously bad at organizing (none / 1)

      ATLA (the American Trial Lawyers Association) does lobby like hell, but are very bad at messaging and very independant. The only unified efforts are lobbying, they have no collective messaging or PR and worse yet, no grassroots support.  It is killing them.
      •  Not to Mention (none / 0)

        That to most Americans - even many on 'the left' lawyers are Evil.  Responsible for everything wrong with America.  I can literally see a situation where the mere fact that trial lawyers opposed the bill resulted in a sway of public opinion in favor of it.

        The right has done an excellent job of making everything that comes out of a lawyer's mouth suspect - no matter what it is.  Since after all, lawyers are only concerned about money, if you listen cynically to the average (wo)man on the street when they talk about their own experiences.

        •  Too little too late? (none / 0)

          Lawyers get hit with a broad array of charges no matter what. It is too bad that they have not improved their PR abilities because the damage that has been done to their profession hurts all of us.  I for one want good lawyers fighting the good fight and I really don't care how much they're paid.  They are the only thing standing between us and the government and us and the corporations.  If they go down, we go down.
    •  Not Correct (none / 0)

      Who do you think WROTE and THOUGHT UP all of those obnoxious clauses in the credit card agreements?  yes, lawyers that's who.  (although, admittedly, it was some asshole with an MBA who thunk up the strategy of lending to bad credit risks).

      BTW, I am a lawyer myself.  I'm allowed to attack my own.

  •  The Fundamental Question (none / 1)

    Do you believe that we should try to overturn majority rules to require a 3/5 vote for all Senate legislation?  Do you believe that everything we don't like ought to be filibustered?

    And would you believe this if we had a 52-48 majority again?

    (Also, Prof. Warren is a law professor, not an economist, and a damn good one at that.)

    •  No (none / 1)

      I don't believe that every single distasteful thing should be filibustered.

      But when one is decided on, these creeps need to dance with the ones that brought 'em.  

      Yes, I am sure one can come up with a hypothetical situation in which a departure from party line would be reasonable in a filibuster vote.  But that's not what we're looking at here--we're looking at a fascist majority with their boot on our collective throat, and a desperate need for the opposition party to be a damn opposition party.  

      Those fucking Quislings.

      Babe, you're just a wave, you're not the water. --Jimmie Dale Gilmore

      by rocketito on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:20:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed (none / 1)

        They have no "political capital" to worry about spending or wasting.  This has been pretty consistant, watching the Republicans march in lockstep on their legislation while the Dems flounder for a majority of the minority.

        This makes for terrible legislation and it makes the Dems look incredibly weak.  What's the upside here?  I sure don't see one.

    •  um (none / 1)

      What the hell are you talking about?

      Have you read this bill?  This is the most anti consumer bill passed in the Senate in a long, long time, maybe ever.  And why did it pass?  Why was it even up for a vote?  Was there an outpouring of demand for it across the country?  No, pure and simple, the lives of many, many working Americans were destroyed today so that Senators can keep those MBNA donations coming in.  It is completely reprehensible, repulsive and disgusting.  

      I am ashamed to be represented by two of them.

      •  I'm Asking A Question (none / 0)

        About how far we want to go with this, and whether the use of the filibuster here is just pure politics or whether we're willing to live with this as principle once we're in the majority again.

        It's a bad bill.  Agreed.  The question is whether under the Constitution that 51 votes should no longer be considered enough to pass legislation and whether we really want to raise the threshold to 60 for everything at all times.

        •  give me a break (4.00 / 2)

          How about for particularly awful bills that harm millions?

          How about for particularly awful judges that would do the same?

          If not now, when?

          And, lets be clear, did Republicans use the fillibuster to stop whatever they wanted, whenevr they wanted?  Of course.  Think Tobacco regulation, think Health Care legislation, think judges.

          So, I will let you play goody-goody, and maybe the rest of us can work to ensure the Democrats do everything they can to protect ordinary Americans from the sucker punches Republicans keep on delivering.

        •  Once we're in the majority again? (none / 0)

          If we sit around asking ourselves "how would I like it if the Senate did X completely legal thing to ME" as if we were moronic children oblivious to the fact that the Marquess of Queensberry is DEAD as far as politics in this country goes, we will never, ever be in the majority again.

          We didn't invent the filibuster.  I'm not masochistic enough to worry about whether some opposition Senator might piss me off in thirty years by using it too, and I'm not masochistic enough to take responsibility for their future abuse of us either.  

          Do you really think it occurs to a repug for ONE SECOND that they might hesitate on some dirty tactic because we didn't do it to them first??

          Dammit, this democracy is on the ropes at best.  We need to use every fucking tool we've got. Wondering how many filibusters will be able to dance on the head of a pin on that fantasized future day when we get back in power is much less important to me personally than doing whatever I can to make that fantasy a reality.  

          Babe, you're just a wave, you're not the water. --Jimmie Dale Gilmore

          by rocketito on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:46:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  fair enough (none / 0)

            And I think there's a lot of merit to the view that you have to go scorched earth, because our opponents will when they're in the minority, and whatever happens, happens.
          •  You said it rocketito (none / 1)

            Not to mention that the Democrats are killing this party vote by vote.  It is taking the fight out of me to see the dreadful legislation roll on by, each time with enough Democrats on board. Republicans have not crossed party lines on a single issue, only the suck up Dems - think that is going to change anytime soon?

            This ain't no party, this ain't no foolin' around. This is for keeps, kids.

        •  I understand your point (none / 0)

          and it's a very important point. But I think it is just reflective of how screwed up our priorities are. The filibuster is and should be used in cases when a bill is particularly egregious which this bill is. But just because the media is not reporting on something like credit card company profit protection  doesn't mean it isn't a hallmark issue. Not many people around here were calling for a filibuster of the tort reform bill even though it was pretty widely opposed in the community and not many people were suggesting a filibuster of Condi's confirmation even though that too was widely opposed here. So, in answer to your question. We aren't suggesting filibustering everything, just the very important stuff where the determined radical majority is trying to sell our country down the river.
        •  Principle? (none / 1)

          About how far we want to go with this, and whether the use of the filibuster here is just pure politics or whether we're willing to live with this as principle once we're in the majority again.

          You've got it wrong.

          We're going to have to live with this as principle whether we like it or not--because the Republicans are already operating on this principle. We can't be reasonable and civil unless it's a two-way street. And it's not. The Republicans are fighting us with everything in their arsenal, so we have to fight back with every tool at our disposal.

          The question is whether under the Constitution that 51 votes should no longer be considered enough to pass legislation and whether we really want to raise the threshold to 60 for everything at all times.

          No. The question is, should we not use every Constitutional method at our disposal to prevent the passage of extremist legislation? This is not a moderately conservative piece of legislation. This is an extremist piece of legislation. Most of the Bush administration's agenda for the past four years has been extremist.

          Constitutionally, there are ways for the minority to check the majority when it gets too extreme. The minority has a responsibility to do this--particularly when the minority represents 49% of the country. Bush is trying to pass an extremist agenda and the Dems have a responsibility to stop him.  

          The Republicans are playing an extreme, take-no-prisoners game. We can't fight them by playing nice and holding back. The filibuster is a weapon at our disposal, and if the Republicans insist on corporate whoring, we should use it.

          In another comment, you raised the question of whether there is anything that the Republicans want to do that the Dems should not filibuster. The answer to that is, there's very little that meets this standard. But that's not the fault of the Dems. That's the fault of the Republicans for being extremist. If everything they push is insane, then we'll just have to urge filibusters of everything.

    •  she has been terrific (none / 1)

      I did not mean to criticize her.  

      It's just that campaigns against bills like this have to run like a political campaign.  That is actually a skill that I admire.  And who knows if she had had more time and we had mobilized sooner we may have won this vote.

      In the last Congress we would have killed it with the Schumer amendment, buy there were too many anti choice Republicans elected this time.  
      Unlike some I thought we had a better shot at getting the 40 nvotes to keep filibustering.  

      See just now that horrendous Jeff Sessions is calling this a bipartisan bill.

      My point has been thatg the right has been laying the gound for this for a long time --invoking party discipline and using their think tank created scenarios of scamming debtors and the right wing echo chamber touting this untrue storyline.  

      We need to have our own think tanks and our stoies to flog on the media.  Elizabeth Warren provided us with those stories.

      We, the Dem party, should have publicized those stories to turn these wayward Sen. around.  Stories and political pressure.

  •  GOP Solidary + Special Interest Dems (none / 0)

    Nasty bills like this have been pretty commonplace in the Senate for a while now. The real problem here isn't as much that the GOP has strong solidarity, it's that there ALWAYS seems to be a few Dems that will go along with their big-donor special interests without any fear of reciprocity from the Democratic base.

    They're still counting on the small donor money into the DSCC for their campaigns, too. They are betting-and probably correctly-that our desire to oust the GOP will trump our distaste for this vote and other votes that ONLY pass because a cadre of Senators choose their special interests over America's interest.

    When the time comes to give for 2006, I'll be eyeing that DSCC donation button carefully and probably will only contribute because of the distaste I hold for Fristy and Man-on-Dog. But god, after this little legislative misadventure, I'll feel dirty for doing it.

  •  the Good guys (4.00 / 5)

    Akaka (D-HI)
    Baucus (D-MT)
    Bayh (D-IN)
    Bingaman (D-NM)
    Boxer (D-CA)
    Cantwell (D-WA)
    Clinton (D-NY)
    Corzine (D-NJ)
    Dayton (D-MN)
    Dodd (D-CT)
    Dorgan (D-ND)
    Durbin (D-IL)
    Feingold (D-WI)
    Feinstein (D-CA)
    Harkin (D-IA)
    Inouye (D-HI)
    Jeffords (I-VT)
    Kennedy (D-MA)
    Kerry (D-MA)
    Lautenberg (D-NJ)
    Leahy (D-VT)
    Levin (D-MI)
    Mikulski (D-MD)
    Murray (D-WA)
    Obama (D-IL)
    Reed (D-RI)
    Reid (D-NV)
    Rockefeller (D-WV)
    Sarbanes (D-MD)
    Schumer (D-NY)
    Wyden (D-OR)

    (you will note not ONE single R voted against the cloture...)

    -L.

    éí 'aaníígÓÓ 'áhoot'é

    by Librarian on Tue Mar 08, 2005 at 12:19:27 PM PDT