Daily Kos

Who Are You Calling Fringe?

by sophiebrown

Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:29:11 AM PDT

I am a middle aged baseball mom.  I have a small business that I run out of my home, which allows me to spend more time with my family.  I volunteer substantial time and energies to my son's school and to my church.  I pay my bills, I pay my taxes, I return my library books on time.  I have dear friends across the political and religious spectrum.  I hope -- and believe --that I am seen in my community as a person of  integrity.  If my mom were still living (she died in 1992 following a long battle with cancer -- I was one of her primary caregivers) she would be very proud of me.

I joined Move-on in the months before the Iraq war.  I was full of anxiety and foreboding as I watched my government head blindly into the conflict.  Few or none in the mainstream media or in the democratic party seemed willing to raise the obvious questions or the inconvenient facts.  Move-on provided information and community and opportunities to raise my voice with others to speak what we all now know was the truth about that terrible misadventure.

I am still a member of Move-on, though I don't agree with all their pronouncements or even read all their emails.  

But when an email came from Move-on about Robert Byrd several weeks back, I did read it and I responded with a contribution.  Robert Byrd is a hero of many of us who opposed the war in Iraq from the start.  His senate speech opposing the war in February 2002 was the most eloquent and painful thing to emanate from Washington in those dark days.  It was passed around on college campuses and on the internet.  I may not agree with all that Senator Byrd has done in his life but I believe he is a truth-teller who needs to be a part of the senate for as long as he is willing to continue to serve.

And now I find that Senator Byrd is being attacked by the Republican party for taking contributions from people like me.  Fringe people, who are not "mainstream" and who "don't reflect the values of West Virginia." http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-moveon6apr06,1,3917382.story?coll=la-headlines-politics

And the msm is taking that charge seriously. http://dailykos.com/story/2005/4/7/182818/9238

You know what?  I am done with this B.S.

The Republicans are the ones who pander to the fringe.  Look at Rick Santorum hangingwith that right wing freak Randall Terry. I never came across anyone in Moveon who traded in dead fetuses, verbally abused woman and consorted with murderers.
I don't know anyone in Move-on who  makes death threats, or  storms health care facilities, or gets their kids arrested.  

I don't think anyone in Move-on is suggesting that there may be some jusitification for killing judges and their families.  (Oops -- that wasn't a member of a fringe group!  That was a United States Senator!)

So you know what, Ken and Karl?  You go ahead and keep throwing red meat to your "base".  They'll be a great source of support (at least until the rapture comes).  But don't you be calling me names.    We all know where the "fringe" is.  right in your back pocket.  

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Permalink | 134 comments

  •  Excellent!!! (4.00 / 2)

    n/t

    noli, amabo, verberare lapidem ne perdas manum -- Plautus

    by fritzrth on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:44:53 AM PDT

    •  thanks (4.00 / 102)

      I am sure I speak for many of us.

      Bill Sali

      by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:48:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Indeed you do (4.00 / 2)

        Excellent diary.  

        I really hope that some of the RedState lurkers take the opportunity to read your message.

        I am a warrior for peace. And not a gentle man... Steve Mason, 1940-2005

        by Wayward Wind on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:52:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  a precipitating event for me (4.00 / 64)

          Last weekend, I was working at the garage sale at my son's school.  Toward the end of the sale, an older disabled  man came in.  I have seen him there before.  Although he is in his sixties he has a young, sort of faded out wife and a number of young kids.  He comes at the end to the sale because he knows we're giving away things for cheap.  So he comes, and he gets tons of stuff for about ten bucks.  I was helping him find and carry things, and having a pleasant conversation with him (disregarding some of his strange libertarian Idaho mountain man comments).  When it was time to pay he said "I am a poor white man, not like those liberals say.  They say only blacks and mexicans are poor."  I told him I was a liberal and I did not think that.  He gets all nasty to me and quotes Dr. Michael Savage.  I got pissed and had to walk away.  Here I am, a friggen PTA mom helping his ass and he starts dumping on me because MICHAEL SAVAGE tells him I'm a freak.  I finally tell him: you know, I feel badly because you and I live in this town together, and we are talking together and getting along until you let some damn outsider Doctor Michael Savage step in and tell you what I believe in.  

          I am not going to be marginalize by Freaks any more.

          Bill Sali

          by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:01:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This (4.00 / 3)

            made me want to cheer.

            You go, as they say.

            by txredd on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:34:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I was kind of ashamed of myself (4.00 / 2)

              at the time.  I felt like I lost my cool, and really couldn't think of anything really wonderful and succinct to say.  But I hope I can do better next time.

              Bill Sali

              by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:39:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not every moment calls for succinctness (4.00 / 5)

                I think you handled it exactly right.  The guy deserved to know that the boogey-man he has been hearing about is actually one of his neighbors -- a kind and generous woman with feelings.

                A snappy comeback may have been more satisfying, but I'll bet what you said sunk in.

                by txredd on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:49:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You were right to speak up (4.00 / 9)

                I'm a "softball dad" who works with our local Rec. council to provide opportunities for the children.  Several of the rich Repugs have commented about my "Kerry" sticker, and they wanted to know why I was a  "liberal".  I questioned why they wanted to kill Iraqis, most have drunk the Bush Kool-Aid and think that the way to fight terra is to kill "them" over in the mid-east.

                I've also started speaking up against the Bush madness and the wing-nuts, why should we stay quiet while these idiots are ruining our country and the world?

                Thank you Sophie Brown!

                by MD patriot on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:57:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Disabled and in his sixties?? (4.00 / 6)

                That douchebag was probably collecting BOTH disability and Social Security checks. And he's whining about liberals?

                Democrats: For the health, prosperity and security of every single American.

                by alysheba on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 05:59:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  GOODFORYOU (4.00 / 3)

            I'd have told this nutcase to take his $10 back and then I'd have given him another $10 (of my own kitty money) and told him to get the fuck away and have a vile rest of his life...  

            A person in their sixties is not dead.  And if he has a "faded out wife and a number of kids" there is no reason for you to feel sorry for this poor downtrodden weasel, because he's obviously currently living his "second" life with his dick in high gear.  

            We must ask why is it ok for THEM to feel free to speak to us with their (SAVAGE) rhetoric, but not ok for US to defend, let alone PROMOTE our agenda?  This is not right and we gotta stop this shit by giving it right back to them.

            In your defense, I do garage sales periodically and am very familiar with this man's persona.  I usually don't sell to him...  

            Your Mr.Man says, "poor white man, bla bla, Michael Savage, bla bla" and we say, "You are an idiot and so is Savage -- do you still want to buy this stuff right now for $10 or should I throw it in the trash?

            If they speak, WE will speak right back.  That is just basic common sense.

            by busternjake on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 05:33:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I guess I felt more conciliatory (4.00 / 3)

              he's hearing crap from savage.  he's believing it.  but I choose to think that, with dialog between us, things could change.  

              am I misguided?  maybe.  but I have to believe this right now.  when I can't believe it any more I think I'll move up across the boarder (if they'll have me).  

              Bill Sali

              by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 06:06:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  good explanation (4.00 / 5)

            You may have lost your cool but I think the retort was a good one.

            "You want to know what I believe just ask me.  I will proudly tell you.  you don't need a hatemonger like michael savage and rush limbaugh tell you what liberals believe in, because they don't have the faintest clue."

            I got nothing.

            by DawnG on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 06:26:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  RedStater reading (none / 0)

          but definitely not commenting.

          by doverspa on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:32:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That's right (4.00 / 3)

        And I'll be proud to have you continue speaking for me when you're speaking such strong truth.

        "The world breaks everyone, then some become strong at the broken places." - Ernest Hemmingway

        by nofundy on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:53:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  cheers! (none / 1)

        from another baseball mom of the "lunatic fringe" variety.

        Life was meant to be lived, and curiosity must be kept alive. Eleanor Roosevelt

        by blueohio on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:57:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You speak for me. (4.00 / 3)

        In another forum,  a very conservative poster said, I kid you not, "Saddam we can defeat, liberals are a tougher enemy."

        So I really, really do appreciate this diary.

        War is not an adventure. It is a disease. It is like typhus. - Antoine De Saint-Exupery

        by Margot on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:13:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Just wait (4.00 / 3)

      Sophie, you are right on the money.  They've been saying this about MoveOn since it was created.  Well, how about the Swifties??? and the other Republican 527's?  I bet if you start digging through the Repugs running against Byrd, you will find (very soon) enough Repub 527's who are also not emblematic of West Virginia (whatever the hell that means).

      Byrd gratefully accepted the money, and knowing him, he is aure enough not going to give it back because the Repubs don't like it.  Hell, they are not SUPPOSED to like it.  They have to say something, so they push this swill.  Every time I hear it I just smile.  Back atcha, buddy. We can raise money, too. Guess your rightwing whacko base can't raise money this fast.

      We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

      by Mary Julia on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:40:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I was going to say (none / 1)

      Hell yeah!

      McCain: Less jobs, more war.

      by Unstable Isotope on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 03:59:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Rant of The Day (4.00 / 3)

    Great job!  Preach it sister!

    "The world breaks everyone, then some become strong at the broken places." - Ernest Hemmingway

    by nofundy on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:51:59 AM PDT

  •  Right-wing debate tactic #22a (4.00 / 10)

    Define your opposition by the subgroups most likely to inflame others.

    Branding you as fringe, Sophie, is a classic example of the Right's M.O.

    John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:57:45 AM PDT

  •  Isn't it sad... (4.00 / 7)

    ... that being responsible citizens opposed to war makes them call us the fringe?

    We are not the fringe - we are the warp and the weft of America's fabric.

    by TxTiger on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:05:24 AM PDT

  •  Damn, straight... (none / 1)

    You keep on telling it. The MSM are just shills and liberals/progressives, heck even moderates who believe in integrity must keep pushing our views out there, everywhere. We ain't no freakin' fringe loonies.

    It isn't shameful to vote your own self-interest instead of the interests of multi-national corporations--iceman

    by fumie on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:11:52 AM PDT

  •  You are obviously a radical insurgent and... (4.00 / 14)

    ...quite possibly a terrorist and enemy combatant that threatens our liberty and the destruction of our democratic way of life.

    You have my utmost respect and salutations.

    by bill3arnett on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:24:03 AM PDT

    •  my most radical act (4.00 / 6)

      I told my son that it was his constitutional right to decline to stand for the pledge of allegiance at school.  (that's the subject of another diary, I think)

      Bill Sali

      by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:27:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  OH, MY GOD! YOU ARE WICKED BEYOND... (none / 1)

        ...belief, and entirely endowed with too much common sense to be permitted to continue your radical ways!

        Expect a visit from the FBI, CIA, IRS, NSA, RNC, GOP, and all those f'ing letters!

        But you still have my utmost respect, which just goes to show you how screwed up I am, and, since I am obviously insane, I believe my comments merit more respect than those of "sane" Republicans!

        by bill3arnett on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:38:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I know (4.00 / 9)

          It's kind of funny though.  I am the board chair at my son's charter school.  the principal, a wonderful woman and a good friend, told my son he had to stand (albeit silently) during the pledge.  I called her and said "no trish, to tell you the truth he doesn't". I told her about the case law and how even standing is a form of expression that can't be compelled.

          Anyway, it was fine (being that I am kind of her boss how could it not have been fine?).  I think she was genuinely happy to learn what I had to teach her.

          Bill Sali

          by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:45:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'm impressed that your son went along w/ it (none / 1)

        How old is he?  When I told my daughter about the whole god in the pledge thing, and how she could just not say that part if she didn't want to (we're atheists), she told me she had no problem with mentioning god in the pledge -- according to her 7-year-old logic, the whole rest of the pledge was for people who didn't believe in god, so it was only fair to have that little bit for people who do.

        She has also mentioned not wanting to admit that she doesn't believe in god in certain company, so I guess she's just not the kind to stand up and make waves.  At least not yet.

        by ppluto on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:44:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I told him when he was five (4.00 / 2)

          We didn't focus on the god thing.  I just told him that "pledging allegiance" in our free country is something you do because you want to, not because you have to.  

          I know sometimes he does do it, like at baseball, because he doesn't want to make waves.  And a classmate's dad came to the school for a presentation before heading out to Iraq with the national guard, and I told my son he had to stand then, out of respect for Katie's dad (which he was cool about).  but sometimes he sits.  there is an english boy in his class and he sits too.

          Bill Sali

          by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 04:07:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  i think (4.00 / 6)

    everybody at dkos is techinically an "insurgent".

    Discussion Group for Teachers

    by Furious Hal on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:26:59 AM PDT

  •  And to Al From types (none / 0)

    Just Imagine the Democratic Party if Moveon, Deaniacs, michael Moore filmwatching left the party with their money and activism to a Third party,  What will happen to the Democratic Party?

    Fact check Obama spins on Hillary http://facts.hillaryhub.com/

    by timber on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:41:12 AM PDT

    •  "Radical" means ROOTS! (4.00 / 5)

      There is no need whatsoever to keep 'cowed and silent' as the public image of the elected Democrat.  Whacha gonna do, lose an election?  I would like to see Neo Dems leading a new power structure with a clear and compelling message that Radically differs from that of the Republicans.  No more Liebermans.  There is no point in my view for middle ground; Kerry and his type just do not have the fire in the belly that it will take to change the future.  I want to see a Democratic Senator or Congressman taking a stand every damn time I turn on the news.

      Harrumph.

      "War is the calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings". Harry Patch, age 109, WWI veteran.

      by skwimmer on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:58:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I believe we are witnessing the demise... (none / 0)

      of the Democratic Party. THEY NO LONGER POSSESS EITHER THE BALLS, COMMON SENSE, OR SENSE OF DECENCY TO STAND UP FOR ORDINARY AMERICANS.

      When the DNC called me for a donation today, I told them that very thing!

      by bill3arnett on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:00:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  DNC is Dean and grassroots NOW (4.00 / 3)

        Give Money to DNC!

        Rant against individual Senators or Dems that forget they are Democrats.

        Fact check Obama spins on Hillary http://facts.hillaryhub.com/

        by timber on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:13:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I do RANT, every fuckin' day, but you know... (none / 1)

          ...what? Ya can't get ANYTHING back from elected representatives other than "standard" form letters and replies, which I guess is what passes for representative democracy these days.

          Almost every day of the week I send my concerns to every single democrat in the Senate, to no avail. I lack the patience to do so with every single democratic representative.

          I am beginning to believe all is lost in this country from the lack of ability or lack of attention or the sheer lack of interest to communicate meaningfully with our so-called elected representatives!

          But I still "tilt at windmills" ( a measure of my insanity).

          by bill3arnett on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:38:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hate to pimp, but (4.00 / 4)

            there's a structure to how the offices work --- if you want more than form letters - check out how the office is structured.  I used to work in a senate office on the Hill - I know what I'm talking about:

            What happens when you contact your senator?

            For what it's worth, after a stint in DC, I agree with you that the greatest danger to our democracy currently is the general ignorance of the public about issues that matter... --what?  Oh, sorry, I was catching up on the Jackson trial.  What was I saying?

            War is NOT a preventative measure.

            by demandcaring on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 02:13:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Dean Calls Spk Hastert to Stop Protecting DeLay (4.00 / 3)

        http://www.democrats.org/news/200504080005.html

        Apr 8, 2005

        Gov. Howard Dean Calls on Speaker Hastert to Stop Protecting Tom Delay's Corrupt Activities
        WASHINGTON, DC -- Democratic National Committee Chairman Governor Howard Dean issued the following statement regarding the Republicans abusive use of power and the corruption scandal surrounding Tom DeLay:

        "The Republican Party is leaving this country with a legacy of debt, deceit and divisiveness. When Tom DeLay broke the ethics laws of the United States Congress, he along with Speaker Dennis Hastert and their Republican cohorts changed the rules to protect him. They fired the Republican chairman of the House Ethics Committee and made sure DeLay could never be investigated again.

        "I am calling on Speaker Hastert and Ethics Committee Chairman Doc Hastings to restore credibility and fairness to the Ethics committee, in order to hold Tom Delay accountable. I'm calling on Speaker Hastert to reverse the ethics committee rules they changed. The rules must be restored to ensure strong ethical standards for every member of Congress.

        "This behavior continues the reckless Republican abuse of power that has become their trademark and proves they will stop at nothing to protect their own. If Republicans don't like the rules, they change them.

        "Restoring the ethics rules is the only way we can have a full and fair accounting of the facts."

        Fact check Obama spins on Hillary http://facts.hillaryhub.com/

        by timber on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 04:31:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe we are doing a good job of being the media (4.00 / 7)

    Bush's approval ratings are in the mid 40's. Could it be that we are becomming the media, in a collective sense? We want to be, and we try to be, but are we? I think maybe we are. What I mean is that collectively, more of us are emailing and communicating directly with eachother, and maybe it's having an impact. Bush's approval rating is as high as it is despite Bush having the MSM there to lick his ass. Imagine if people were actually informed? I think it looks like people are getting informed by non-MSM methods.

    In my case, the stolen election of 2004 (yes, I am a Fraudster) caused me for the first time to send my family and friends email updates about what is really happening in this country. Maybe there are more and more people getting pushed over the edge to activism against the neocon agenda?

    Investigate War Lies --> Evidence for Senate Conviction --> End the War. Got it?

    by bejammin075 on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:41:32 AM PDT

    •  I hope so, but seems doubtful (none / 1)

      In a recent survey of 'news sources' that American's turn to, blogs were in the 1% range.  Even if you add email distributions, we're still probably less than 5%.

      But it's a mighty important 5%.  What PR firms call "grass tops" (as opposed to grassroots). How does it feel to be an opinion leader!

      BlueNC.com

      by Anglico on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:18:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (none / 1)

        Only 3% of newspaper subscribers ever look at the editorial page. I'd say 5% - or even 1% - is a better number than it sounds. Most people could care less about following politics (hence the mess we're in to begin with), much less become involved enough to enter blogosphere.

        - cdn

        GWOT - Global War on Terra(-firma) - Bush's War on the Planet.

        by grndrush on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:48:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah (4.00 / 3)

          I used to write letters to the editor, but I got the feeling the only people reading those pages are the ones that write letters to the editor.  I think the real secret is to find a way to talk to others in our communities.  I really struggle.  I hate making waves in casual conversations.  

          Bill Sali

          by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 04:39:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do it without making waves (none / 0)

            I do it all the time on the soccer sidelines.  I am also a mom that is involved in my kids' schools and extra activities.  I talk about issues, not politics or parties.  Just the other day on the Lacrosse sideline I asked a mom what she thought about the idea of doing away with the filibuster.  She was clueless, of course and we had a great discussion about the senate, judges, and the role of the judiciary.  It really works--last fall ,after all my conversations, I had four people come up to me and ask me who I was voting for and why.  I'm sure I helped a few people pull the lever for Kerry.
              What most of us don't realize is how out of touch the majority of Americans are.  They usually make up their minds at the last minute and often vote party rather than candidate because they aren't familiar with the issues.
              These are the people we can reach!

            "Do Iraqi children scream when the bombs fall if no one is in the White House to hear them?" Bernard Chazelle

            by dmac on Sat Apr 09, 2005 at 05:31:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Credit where credit is due (none / 0)

      I think we should put the credit for Bu$h's low approval ratings squarely where it belongs--on Bu$h and his completely ass-backward policies.

      Just think of what he's managed despite the MSM's fawning! It's what Bush has always done best--FAILURE.

      Really, though, I think you're absolutely right. Despite the low numbers cited upthread, the truth is, against ALL odds, getting out.

      Media reform now!

      by segmentis on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 10:37:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I love you, sophiebrown! (4.00 / 3)

    One minor quibble: "We all know where the "fringe" is.  right in your back pocket."  I'm not actually sure who's in whose back pocket (is it physically possible for them to be equally in each other's back pockets?).  But otherwise, I'm with you every step of the way.  This is what we need: people proud of their values.  People willing to stand up for themselves and their beliefs.  Not people saying we need to tone things down if we're ever going to win.  You show just how much the evidence is on our side that the Republicans are the fringy ones.  And I love you for it.

    by MissLaura on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:42:55 AM PDT

  •  I like fringes. (4.00 / 2)

    Especially long swoopy ones.
    As long as they don't get tangled.

    BlueNC.com

    by Anglico on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:49:59 AM PDT

  •  Nicely written (4.00 / 3)

    I love a short diary that still says so much, so clearly.

    Your rapture joke reminded about how I was thinking the other day that I should write a series of books as a response to the Left Behind series.

    In my books, the whole understanding of "the Revelation according to people who read it to mean whatever they'd like it to mean" is turned around, to where we are already in our 1000 years of hell on earth, and then the rapture happens, taking all of the crazy fundamentalists who prop up evil, destructive government just disappear, allowing sane minds to foster good, responsible government that carries out God's plan for brotherhood/sisterhood and good will across all of the Earth.

    Questioning another's patriotism is the refuge of the truly unpatriotic.

    by surfbird007 on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 11:57:30 AM PDT

    •  love that book idea! (none / 0)

      nt

      by LisaLL on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:13:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  My Dad was out visiting (none / 1)

      recently, and somehow the rapture came up.  I said "Well you know, I consider myself to be a person of integrity, a good person who tries to do right by others and myself.  I like to think whatever gods there be would see that and not damn me because I don't go to church every week.  

      "However, if the rapture happens, then that's a good indication that the god of those nutcases does in fact exist, and then you can be damn sure I'm SO not getting saved."

      But then, who'd want to go to heaven if they weren't letting any of the "fringe" in?  As Mark Twain (I think?) put it: "Heaven for climate, hell for society." :-)

      War is NOT a preventative measure.

      by demandcaring on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 02:36:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  must run (4.00 / 8)

    just to add to my june cleaver bona fides:
    No school today in Idaho.  My son and his friend, who spent the night, have been out digging in the mud by our pond.  I have been so busy blogging, I did not notice they had a huge mud fight.  They finally came in, and I had to get them to strip on the porch before jumping in a cold shower (we keep it on a timer to save electricity).  Anyway I am frantically yelling at them "your dad's going to kill you!", because I have to go to my church for meeting with my minister to talk about raising money for a project to send bicycles to africa.  

    Take that Phyllis Schlaffly!

    Thanks for the support!

    Bill Sali

    by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:02:37 PM PDT

  •  I love a good rant in the morning (4.00 / 5)

    it smells like
    Victory.

    Buckeye State Blog

    by Pounder on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:19:41 PM PDT

  •  i love fringes (none / 0)

    and respect them immensely. this country only moves foward with fringe people willing to fight and stand up for themselves.

    but as my diary says, we must acknowledge some truth to the GOP's message and how we on "the fringe" ARE out of touch and separated from the American mainstream, particularly on faith issues (and gay marriage).

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/4/8/145756/0566#15

    i'm a MoveOn member, but their emphasis on "elitist" issues (ANWR, judges, abortion) doesn't sit well with me. where are the messages on CAFTA or bankrtupcy? you know, bread and butter issues?

    by ihlin on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:28:51 PM PDT

  •  Let's hold them to the same standard (4.00 / 5)

    If they want to criticize Byrd because of the "fringe" groups supporting him, why don't we start publicizing the politics of some of the nuts who support the GOP.  They have a broad coalition of support, including people who have religious and racial beliefs that would shock many Americans.  

    by dianem on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:30:04 PM PDT

  •  you need to "come out" (4.00 / 4)

    to more people than just that ungrateful guy (who may have some mental instabilities anyway...)

    Because you are so highly respected and such a wonderful contributor to your community, you will open many people's eyes and minds to what a "liberal" actually is.

    Bet you'll surprise some folks....

    by pitbullEmily on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:33:23 PM PDT

  •  Go Tell It On the Mountain (none / 1)

    <sung to the tune of "Go Tell it On the Mountain.">

    Intelligent Designer Laments Lapse in Intelligence

    by mrblifil on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:37:21 PM PDT

  •  Well as a leader in your community (none / 1)

    I hope you put this into an LTE

    by white blitz on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:38:08 PM PDT

  •  Hooray, Sophie! (none / 1)

    You are what makes this country great (to the extent it actually IS great ...).

    It's ridiculous that taking a stand gets you labeled fringe or extreme or whatever.  But you might as well get used to it Sophie, since I don't think you're likely to stop.

    Well, Mark, the President has worked to elevate the discourse in this town.
    -- Scott McClellan 5/17/2005

    by coloradobl on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:43:41 PM PDT

  •  And friends they may thinks it's a movement (none / 1)

    You're not the fringe. You're representing American values at their best. And you're part of a proud tradition that includes my mom and her mom, my great-great aunt, and on my dad's side, one of my great-grandmothers. You're not alone.

    The real fringe is the right-wingers. They're expensive, delicate, and unnecessary. We could snip them off at any time if we simply decided to do so.

    by TomB on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:43:55 PM PDT

  •  I think (none / 1)

    I'll try and get my uncle from West Virginia to donate.  I'd love to see him called "fringe".

    The most important word in the language of the working class is `solidarity.'--Harry Bridges, longshore union leader

    by Bendygirl on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:49:32 PM PDT

  •  What a great letter to the editor this would be! (4.00 / 2)

    It tells your story in beautifully written way that speaks to your involvement in your community that extends not just locally but nationally.

    Please consider sending this to your local paper

    by merbex on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:50:48 PM PDT

  •  Recommend! (none / 1)

    The truth spoken with moving eloquence!

    Only one of them can win, and it doesn't look good for her.

    by super simian on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:52:33 PM PDT

  •  Letter to the Editor (4.00 / 2)

    and every other point of contact with print and web media that you can manage. This is not only a great rant, but it also hits all the right notes in the right way.

    I'm sick of being called fringe.

    I'm sick of having my motivations defined by people like Dick Cheney and Michael Savage and David Brooks.

    How long can regular American people stand being told that if they don't live in the Heartland, if they don't watch NASCAR, if they don't worship just so, if they don't shop at Walmart, then they're not "real" Americans?

    This is clearly a message with an audience. Well done.

    Remember: It's nothing more than the biggest heist in human history.

    by DjW on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:56:02 PM PDT

  •  Move-on is just regular people (4.00 / 2)

    Sen. Byrd is absolutely right.  The Republicans try to "intimidate" us from associating with particular people because, oh no, they'll call us names like "liberal" if we do.

    Cheers to you for not letting the Republicans tell you who to be friends with.

    by Steve M on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM PDT

  •  Sophie, I heard you on the other side of the state (none / 0)

    It's good to know that there is at least one other person in ID that agrees with me.

    No matter how cynical I get, I can't keep up these days--Lily Tomlin

    by hoosierspud on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:04:42 PM PDT

  •  More of the Fringe (4.00 / 8)

    I live in a middle class neighborhood, pay my bills on time, and like you I run my own business out of my home.  I've been married, to the same man, for twenty-eight years. At one time ago I taught Sunday School.  Though we don't have children (not for lack of trying) we are supportive of our nieces and nephews and our friend's children.

    My brother just retired from teaching middle school and high school math.  His wife teaches second grade.  They have been married, to each other, for thirty-one years and raised two beautiful responsible successful sons.

    My sister-in-law and brother-in-law are very conservative Christians.  They have been married for close to forty years...to each other.  They raised two beautiful children, both of which are in graduate school.  They have four grandchildren.  

    My sister was a single mom.  Through great challenges she raised a responsible, kind and considerate son. She lives in the same city as our 83 year-old mother.  Each Saturday she spends the day with our mother doing whatever suits them.  Sometimes they do puzzles, go to movies or play scrabble.  Anything my mother wishes to do, they do. I'd say my sister is a pretty wonderful daughter.

    We are all bleeding heart LIBERAL Democrats.  Middle class people with middle class lives with middle class responsibilities.  If we aren't the mainstream, who are?

    by pacifica on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:04:43 PM PDT

    •  the things you talk about (4.00 / 2)

      are the ways that we in our family and we in our community used to use as the measure of a person.  are they considerate, honest, do they care for their families.  somehow the whole process has been hijacked, so that now someone's political affiliations can stop us from identifying with people who are certainly worthy of respect.  

      those things are still the measure of a person. those are "american values."

      Bill Sali

      by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 04:46:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks Sophie! (4.00 / 4)

    I love this diary! You've put into words, this irritant that's been bothering me since before the 2004 elections.

    Every media pundit who calls us the "fringe" implies we cost the Democrat party the election in 2004.

    We are sort of their ugly stepchild they don't want to put out before the world. You, me and the other kossacks that media pundits and GOP operatives so smugly go on TV and portray as "fringe" or the "far left'. Heck, we'd be the "Far Left fringe" if we were doing the stuff that Randall Terry or the other GOP goons do. But do the Santorums and the DeLays of the world shun them? NO! They embrace them as their base because they know wedge issues get them their votes.

    What do the Democrats do? Do they try to highlight the chasm in Republican propaganda and what they do in the real world? Do they go on TV, 24-hour news cycles and hammer Bush with his anti-life legislation in TX while he dares to talk of "Culture of Life"? Do they highlight how the Republicans are so far from their purported "small government" propaganda? It takes more than Barbara Boxer to do that. Is Tucker Carlson, Fred Barnes apologizing for saying this was a fake Democrat memo that was circulated in the Senate? Then why did Rather and CBS have to apologize? At least Rather and CBS can claim they were fooled...what is Barnes' and Carlson's excuse???

    Anyway, the way i look at it is that Democraptic Party or not, we at our own individual level try to confront wingnuts, not in a strident manner, but calmly and logically and make them either yield the point or run away shrieking "Dr. Savage told me".

    Then we'll see who the fringe is.

    by araina on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:11:32 PM PDT

  •  The thing that disturbs me most (4.00 / 2)

    about what sophiebrown is pointing out here is how thoroughly the wingnuts, along with their big money backers, by using the shamefully compliant and complicit MSM as their communications platform, have managed to completely alter the meaning of what it means to be an integral part of society and what it means to be on the outside, on the fringe.

    Previously, speaking out, while not always appreciated, was nevertheless not always grounds for societal exile. People could disgree, we could resist what we thought were bad ideas, but could still relate to each other, take meals together, work together, respect each other and help each other out. This is what the wingnuts have managed to change.

    The language of the wingnut controlled world defines a person who's "integral within society" as someone who's completely compliant and obedient to their views. If you disagree, even if you dare to challenge them, to question them on any level, you become the enemy instantly. This is the only way you can stop their attacks on you.

    Wingnuts are fascists at heart, and when this sort of severe judgementalism reveals it's ugly self, it's a pre-cursor to attempts to establish tyranny. When the only way you can find to be accepted in the mainstream is to become a sheep, there's trouble ahead.

    So let's get these wingnuts back in their caves where they belong.

    Defeat the sound-bite.

    by sbj on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:17:29 PM PDT

  •  I'm not fringe, either (4.00 / 3)

    I have a child, a spouse I married before I conceived the child, a mutual fund at Vanguard, an apartment I've lived in for almost a decade and a job I've held for about as long.

    I've voted for John Danforth, and, under the right conditions, I would have voted for Robert Dole if I'd had a chance to do so. I feel a lot of sympathy for Clarence Thomas, and, honestly, I think I might have some major theoretical areas of agreement with the folks who wanted to continue nutritional support for Terry Schiavo. (Although, obviously, I don't see how anyone of any political stripe can possibly support the media/political circus surrounding that tragic case.) I'm stridently pro-legal-choice, and I'll go back to being a member of Planned Parenthood once my finances ease a bit, but I agree that abortion of a healthy fetus is a tragedy.

    But I also believe that the Bush administration is doing everything within its power to break down the institutions that protect us against tyranny and destroy our relationships with other countries.

    I think that you can believe a fairly conservative person and support most of the positions that Newt Gingrich would have espoused 10 years ago and still think that the Bush administration is a blot on our country's history and a menace to life on Earth.

    by sclminc on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:19:25 PM PDT

    •  I'm not fringe either (4.00 / 3)

      Sclminc, I'm a diehard liberal Democrat, and I, too, am conservative in some areas. For instance, I think women and teenage girls are way too sexualized on television and I worry about how to help young girls learn to value themselves.

      I appreciate the fact that you are sharing your complexity. I appreciate it because the GOP wingnuts do people like you and me a disservice. You didn't say whether you were a dem or republican but if you are a republican, I applaud you. Sometimes the dems lose hope that there are reasonable republicans out there who are watching this second civil rights movement unfold with just as much horror as us democrats.

      You are wonderfully politically complex as I believe a great deal of Americans are, while having a deep respect for true democracy in America. I applaud you!

      by shrdiv on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 06:15:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ack (4.00 / 3)

        You say: "... I, too, am conservative in some areas. For instance, I think women and teenage girls are way too sexualized on television and I worry about how to help young girls learn to value themselves."

        That's not conservative. This is conservative: "I think women and teenage girls are way too sexualized on television and I worry about how young men will avoid the temptation, the charms and seduction of these wicked, vile, and godless creatures."

        Have you seriously ever known a conservative who thought there was any point whatever in girls learning to value themselves? My dad was a winger. I loved him dearly, dearly, but that was not a concept he could have ever begun to grasp. No, I think it's time for you to come out of the closet and admit you're a full fledged member of the stark raving liberal "elite."

        (Because my attitude does not always translate well in type, you'll just have to imagine the bemused but friendly smile that accompanies this whole welcome-aboard-the-blunderbus speech...)

        Elsewhere, the Department of Homeland Security announced that it would replace its color-coded terror alert system with a Magic Eight Ball. -Borowitz Report

        by JRowan on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 08:14:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm a fairly liberal Democrat (none / 0)

        but I'm not quite as progressive folks here, and I think maybe I can empathize with moderate conservatives more than some folks here because my family is pretty liberal/moderate so I haven't been forcefed wingnut attitudes all my life.

        I think people who here wingnuttery at the dinner table throughout their childhood often develop an intellectual allergy to anything that sounds even a little bit conservative.

        by sclminc on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 11:50:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  now by the sounds of it.... (none / 1)

    if you don't represent 'mainstream' and 'values of the country'...  then who the hell does!  how many of these christians do everything that you are doing!  oh wait, they probably give money to benny hinn or the church.  

    by ejpoeta on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:21:36 PM PDT

  •  The title of this diary is causing a flashback... (none / 1)

    "Fringe?!? I am not fringe!!! When do we start the attack???"

    -Post on FreeRepublic in the wake of Hannity's declaration that the site had been taken over by "fringe elements."

    Gets me every time, in so many ways...

    -6.13, -5.54. "The reason we had a right to privacy is because Congress didn't stop them." - Tom DeLay

    by OxyLiberal on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:33:59 PM PDT

  •  When I hear Hannity, Limbaugh & others (4.00 / 7)

    calling "liberals" evil, I want to scream.  When they say, "We have to stop them folks, these liberals are evil, I tell you they are, they are aiding and abetting the enemy,"  I want to throw my cell phone at my radio and smash it all together.  I rage.  

    This "liberal" is a teacher for a pittance of what I could make if I went back to law school or went to be a lobbyist for a liberal group; this liberal's husband is a NYC fireman, disabled by cleaning up 9/11 while the "good" hannity, limbaugh stayed the hell away from that hellhole; my husband would have died for anyone in his job, numerous times, without asking them their political persuasion; this "liberal" buys books for the library, watches all of the busy republican neighbors' kids (they are busy going to happy hour on Friday nights, rather than being home with their kids, and I don't have family values???) this liberal is the one many kids come to because their parents are too busy being judgmental about them because they care about the world/environment/war in iraq, or too damn busy making mega-bucks to listen to their kids.  

    I don't know much, but I do know this:  this liberal is making the world a LOT better place than most of my acquaintances who make MEGA bucks working down on Wall Street, the same ignoramuses who thumb their noses at those who teach their kids, and patrol their streets, and make this society a safer place for them to drive their limos through.

    I have already started my assault on repubs; there are no holds barred when I am around, and if they don't want to hear it, then they can walk away.  I have had enough of their judgmental bullshit.  

    My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

    by adigal on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:38:35 PM PDT

    •  its about walking the walk (4.00 / 2)

      it sure sounds like you do.  I guess in a way vilifying liberals is the same as attacking the liberal media.  If you discredit the speaker, then you don't have to worry about the truth they speak, because the faithful won't listen.  But it's one thing to do that to an abstract entity like the media.  It's another thing to it to the person behind you in line at the grocery store.

      Bill Sali

      by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 04:50:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bravo, Bravo!! (none / 1)

    thanks for making my day better.
    You give me hope for America.

    I hope more people wake up and realize that it is the repugs who are on the fringe.

    Why is it taking this long for people to wake up to these thugs.

    by sadhu on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 01:49:09 PM PDT

  •  Demonization of Moveon.org (4.00 / 4)

    It makes me furious. I am not even a terribly active member, but I hosted a meeting last November right after the election. I met 30 people (my house was packed) who were absolutely lovely people--smart, hardworking, caring, decent. We should not allow this. This is an example of "fencing." They decided their script would be the "extremism" of Moveon.org and it is absurd.
    Then you get people like Peter Beinart dissing Moveon (and all the ScLM) and they don't really know anything about them. (In fact, in all salient demographic characteristics of the people at Moveon are just about the same as those of the people who are dissing Moveon, except the "dissers" are on TV pontificating from inside their beltway bubble. For heaven's sakes, the founders of Moveon.org are software developers who made money from a screensaver and decided to do some good political work. I work every day with software developers. They are totally normal people (to the extent that software developers can be normal people).

    by lecsmith on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 02:31:07 PM PDT

  •  Sopie, (none / 0)

    Excellent, elequent diary.  Thank you!

    by Banozet on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 04:41:19 PM PDT

  •  I second THAT! (4.00 / 2)

    Wwheeww! Ok, sister, you can put that smoking gun back in your holster now!

    I think that people can see who the fringe lunatics really are right now because the GOP is making it abundantly clear to the nation - particularly to the GOP voters!

    I remember reading the FOX News message board about 2 weeks ago during the height of Terri Schiavo debacle and read hardcore republicans who were appalled by Bush extreme behavior and were questioning who they'd voted for.

    by shrdiv on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 06:03:36 PM PDT

  •  Great Diary (4.00 / 3)

    And wear is as a badge of honor.  I still take pride in the first time a troll here called me a liberal.  

    As an ex-republican, I still think back on that and chuckle.  These people are truly like schoolyard bullies.

    Keep up the good work.

    The Republicans have a fundamental problem with telling the truth - Howard Dean.

    by NYC Sophia on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 06:03:50 PM PDT

  •  Amen, sister (and) it can't be MoveOn quick'n'easy (4.00 / 2)

    Here I am, a 50 year old former "go with the flow and follow the rules" voter who finally got motivated interested and involved in the issues pre-Iraq-(stupid)war. Thus MoveOn and DKos and other searches for truth and affinity. So AMEN sister!!!

    HOWEVER
    I got an e-mail from MoveOn this evening. I get one almost daily. They make it easy for me to sign the petition and or zap an e-mail or phone call to my local paper or legislator. AND I NEVER DO IT. I just use their e-mail as a tickler alert to do my own direct communication.

    These machine generated responses are a standing joke with OpEd page editors and legislative staffers. It also lets you get clustered and discounted with the "fringe" elements who click a button here and press send there.

    You have to take the extra time and trouble to personalize.
    Use your own words.
    Send the letter/fax/e-mail/call independently.
    If the issue affects pre-schoolers say, let them know you are the mother/grandmother/aunt of a pre-schooler (you know what you are talking about and you are likely to be personally passionate about this issue  - not just a 'hit the button to do your liberal duty' participant)

    Yes, exty-thousand names on an e-mail petition means something. And MoveOn et al do a service by making this collective response possible. But a letter/call/e-mail from Agnes Doodle - unique person - constituent and voter - ...
    It carries more weight. It's not as quick and easy, but it carries more weight.

    How quick and easy should the fight for our freedom and democracy be?

    Join the Netroots Nation development of a Democratic Platform to submit to the Obama Campaign

    by Catte Nappe on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 06:27:15 PM PDT

    •  that is a great point! (none / 0)

      I ignore a lot of the email mail petitions too.

      Bill Sali

      by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 06:33:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Writing letters. (none / 0)

      I pretty much agree with you; I mainly use those petition requests as ticklers although I do sign the occasional one. My problem is, I can't remember which ones I've already signed! LOL. I do, however, take advantage of any webform or email options on the web pages of people or groups I want to contact, with the open text boxes. I write them no differently than I would a "formal" printed letter, making sure punctuation, grammar, etc. is correct and the message is polite and to the point. If I mailed printed letters instead, I'd end up spending a fortune in postage and my budget's too tight for that. Surprisingly, I've received more personalized responses to email than to mailed letters. Like you, I feel the impact is greater when it's clear you've taken extra time to write about how the issue affects you personally. I often use the wording of an e-petition as a framework and alter it to make it personal.

      I also discovered recently that some companies are wise to the mass email petitions and have set up automated responses to simply shoot back a general statement, meaning a live person probably never sees the thing. This happened when I sent a NARAL petition regarding pharmacists refusing to fill birth control or other prescriptions that are against their "moral values." Walmart (gee there's a surprise) responded in less than a minute with just such an automated response.

      Don't trust any UID over [insert current highest number here].

      by pattyp on Sat Apr 09, 2005 at 07:07:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  here's david brooks on what I am about (4.00 / 2)

    in david brooks' column  today, he mentions that the democratic party
    is being led by people who are guaranteed to alienate those voters even more: the highly educated and secular university-town elites who follow Howard Dean and believe Bush hatred and stridency are the outward signs of righteousness.

    so funny, all these years and I did not know that I believed that "bush hatred and stridency" were the outward signs of righteousness.  I always thought that I believed that personal integrity, caring for my family and helping others were the outward signs of righteousness.    

    Do we all believe that "Bush hatred and stridency are the outward signs of righteousness"?  I just want to make sure that I am clear.

    Bill Sali

    by sophiebrown on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 06:31:58 PM PDT

  •  This (4.00 / 2)

    is a deeply satisfying diary. This is my life, my truth, too. Thanks for putting it out there with such ... oomph.

    Elsewhere, the Department of Homeland Security announced that it would replace its color-coded terror alert system with a Magic Eight Ball. -Borowitz Report

    by JRowan on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 08:00:46 PM PDT

  •  We're not "fringe," we're AMERICANS. (none / 1)

    It's time to stop letting the media and these idiots (like your garage sale neighbor) and Republicans who demonize liberals define who we are within a bigoted, marginalizing rhetoric.

    We are not outside of, or on the fringe of, or at the margins of, anything.  We make this country work every day.  As you point out, we ARE this great thing called America-- we pay taxes, are involved in our community institutions, raise America's future citizens, and love our country probably more than the knee-jerk "I stand with President George W. Bush" types.

    It's time to claim more loudly and constantly and without shame that WE ARE AMERICANS-- and I'd be lucky to be able to do it with half the grace and compassion you demonstrated at that garag